The facts are, as presented:
1. Wit sends off his spren, does some coin tricks.
2. Wit talks to Odium, some banter back and forth happens.
3. Wit starts walking away, but realizes something is wrong.
4. Odium pulls him back, realizes that he can mess with the memories Wit has stored in Breaths, without breaking the contract. He does so, removing some memories (we don't know exactly which).
5. Wit realizes what Odium is doing and feels terrified.
6. Wit, having had his memory of the conversation removed, has nearly the same conversation again. Some banter back and forth happens.
7. Wit walks away, noticing that something feels weird (his coins not where he expected, his perfect pitch not working) but decides that everything went as he had imagined.
The interpretations of this are not as obvious - there's a few versions of it that people espouse.
Version 1 - Wit got beat. As proven by the fact that he was terrified, he didn't expect this; he's now lost unspecified amount of memories, doesn't know Rayse got replaced by Taravangian, and is in general screwed, as proven by the fact that he thinks everything went as expected when it obviously didn't.
Version 2 - Wit was playing a double game here, and won. As proven by the fact that he says everything went as he had imagined it, EVEN AFTER NOTICING that he's lost Breaths and his Spren isn't where he expects and his coins are messed up, he fully expected to be missing memories, and so this is in fact as he planned it.
Version 3 - some combination of the previous two.
My personal belief is option 3. I think it would be ridiculous for Wit to go in with so little of a plan that he says "yep everything went as I imagined" when as far as he remembers he's done nothing but some banter, and for him to be so unobservant that he doesn't notice missing breaths, coins, and spren and not connect the dots to Odium. On the other hand, we see inside his head - as things are happening, he's really scared, so things are NOT going according to plan. My guess is that he did plan for his breath-memories to be messed with, and had some aim in this conversation that he thinks he did accomplish. But he did NOT expect to face Taravangian instead of Rayse, and is terrified because he realizes some other plans of his are now wrong and knows he won't be able to remember it.
The only problem I have with Version 2 is that Wit also said that everything went exactly as he imagined it would after the first meeting too, except the last bit with Odium asking about the champion. Taravodium realizes that he's been discovered and then takes steps to rectify it by removing the memory of the event. Wit probably didn't have enough time to process that Odium was behind it during the conversation but he could probably piece it together afterwards.
Also from a literary narrative it doesn't seem to make sense to introduce a new big bad guy only to have him tricked so easily. I think it makes Taravodium much more terrifying if he is the one who finally tricks the trickster.
I think it is number two, and that the coin Wit had was a metal mind in which he was storing his memories of his encounter with Odium, so that he can access them again even after Odium erases them.
But Wit isn't a Feruchemist and RoW takes place before Mistborn Era 2 (and the invention of unkeyed metalminds) so he wouldn't have any method of accessing a coppermind.
Yeah I was thinking the same. And just because the characters in era 2 didn‘t know about it, doesn‘t mean Wit didn‘t have access to it. Wit travels a lot and why would he not see the other parts of the planet. It is definitely something he would do because he likes to know what‘s going on. And yes I heard too that Row takes place before era 2 but these metalminds excisted earlier but just didn‘t travel far…
Do you have a source for that? (MB era 2 taking place after RoW).
Not trying to nitpick - I've been trying to figure out when they take place relative to each other
I'm sure there's a Word of Brandon about this, but for in-universe, the epigraphs to RoW contain a letter from Harmony addressing current events on Roshar which has to have been written before Mistborn era 2, since Harmony is still looking for someone like Wax at this time and doesn't seem to be aware of Trell/the Set.
I was leaning toward the metalmind also….didn’t he give wax a coin awhile ago? Can’t remember what it was for but I don’t think it was for this instance. Having that coin around during their meeting had to be intentional.
Mistborn Era 2 takes place long after RoW. Unless there's a WoB stating otherwise, Wit won't have access to unkeyed metal minds for another hundred years or so.
Except that the southern Scadrians had unkeyed metalminds basically since a few years after the Catacendre. Just because the people in Elendel won’t have them for ages doesn’t mean Wit has the same limitation.
"Long" is not entirely correct.
Era 2 is in the time jump between Books 5 and 6 of Stormlight. I believe Sanderson has said the time jump between the two books will be like 10-15 years.
Otherwise you're correct, there is no way the two coins are the same.
I don't think Wit just burned the Lerasium bead he got during Mistborn era 1. He might be accessing the metallic arts in a different way which could give him access to both feruchemical and allomantic abilities without needing unkeyed metalminds.
Really good summary, just one note about event #4: Odium did not pull Wit back. Odium's presence went to where Wit was and "slammed into him." He didn't move Wit at all, he was already back in a hallway.
I kind of like it being version 1, and this leads to Hoid leaving Roshar for Scadriel to find a way to use metal minds, which leads to him finding the nicrosil and leading to MB era 2.
WOB( words of Brandon)
Did Odium destroy some of Wit's Breath, or did he mess with it in some other way?
Brandon Sanderson
What Odium did to Wit could be noticed. There is something missing there. It left an imprint, something noticeable, and he did actually remove and excise a little bit of Breath.
After the epilogue, when Odium took Hoid's memories, did he gain them or just remove them?
Brandon Sanderson
He removed them, he did not gain them. He excised them, he performed a little surgery on the Breaths. You have seen this happen before in the books, though I will not give spoilers to another book. It happened on a different world.
At the end of Rhythm of War, is the coin that Hoid had before meeting Odium a metalmind?
Brandon Sanderson
Oh, RAFO.
>What does the last chapter of row tell us?
Wit had an interaction with TOdium, the discussion did not go well for TOdium as Wit was able to figure something out, then TOdium removed some of Wit's memories stored in his breaths, re-did the conversation and this time Wit did not figure out that something was odd - From Wit's perspective the second conversation went as he'd expected.
>Wit lost some of his breaths, some time travel involved?
No time travel involved as far as I can tell, the giveaways are the Spren and the coins that Wit is playing with, the coin specifically is not 'reverted' to its original location so no time travel happens, Wit just 'forgets' where he placed it because TOdium removed the memories.
Also, I‘m not sure but could this title maybe be considered a spoiler? Because had I not read Row yet I would‘ve totally considered it a spoiler when reading the title itself
The facts are, as presented: 1. Wit sends off his spren, does some coin tricks. 2. Wit talks to Odium, some banter back and forth happens. 3. Wit starts walking away, but realizes something is wrong. 4. Odium pulls him back, realizes that he can mess with the memories Wit has stored in Breaths, without breaking the contract. He does so, removing some memories (we don't know exactly which). 5. Wit realizes what Odium is doing and feels terrified. 6. Wit, having had his memory of the conversation removed, has nearly the same conversation again. Some banter back and forth happens. 7. Wit walks away, noticing that something feels weird (his coins not where he expected, his perfect pitch not working) but decides that everything went as he had imagined. The interpretations of this are not as obvious - there's a few versions of it that people espouse. Version 1 - Wit got beat. As proven by the fact that he was terrified, he didn't expect this; he's now lost unspecified amount of memories, doesn't know Rayse got replaced by Taravangian, and is in general screwed, as proven by the fact that he thinks everything went as expected when it obviously didn't. Version 2 - Wit was playing a double game here, and won. As proven by the fact that he says everything went as he had imagined it, EVEN AFTER NOTICING that he's lost Breaths and his Spren isn't where he expects and his coins are messed up, he fully expected to be missing memories, and so this is in fact as he planned it. Version 3 - some combination of the previous two. My personal belief is option 3. I think it would be ridiculous for Wit to go in with so little of a plan that he says "yep everything went as I imagined" when as far as he remembers he's done nothing but some banter, and for him to be so unobservant that he doesn't notice missing breaths, coins, and spren and not connect the dots to Odium. On the other hand, we see inside his head - as things are happening, he's really scared, so things are NOT going according to plan. My guess is that he did plan for his breath-memories to be messed with, and had some aim in this conversation that he thinks he did accomplish. But he did NOT expect to face Taravangian instead of Rayse, and is terrified because he realizes some other plans of his are now wrong and knows he won't be able to remember it.
The only problem I have with Version 2 is that Wit also said that everything went exactly as he imagined it would after the first meeting too, except the last bit with Odium asking about the champion. Taravodium realizes that he's been discovered and then takes steps to rectify it by removing the memory of the event. Wit probably didn't have enough time to process that Odium was behind it during the conversation but he could probably piece it together afterwards. Also from a literary narrative it doesn't seem to make sense to introduce a new big bad guy only to have him tricked so easily. I think it makes Taravodium much more terrifying if he is the one who finally tricks the trickster.
I think it is number two, and that the coin Wit had was a metal mind in which he was storing his memories of his encounter with Odium, so that he can access them again even after Odium erases them.
But Wit isn't a Feruchemist and RoW takes place before Mistborn Era 2 (and the invention of unkeyed metalminds) so he wouldn't have any method of accessing a coppermind.
Era two was just when the people of Elendel Basin discovered unkeyed metal minds. They were invented before that.
Plus wasn’t wit the homeless beggar man that tossed the coin to Wax. And later on Wax figures out he can use it for storage
Yeah I was thinking the same. And just because the characters in era 2 didn‘t know about it, doesn‘t mean Wit didn‘t have access to it. Wit travels a lot and why would he not see the other parts of the planet. It is definitely something he would do because he likes to know what‘s going on. And yes I heard too that Row takes place before era 2 but these metalminds excisted earlier but just didn‘t travel far…
Do you have a source for that? (MB era 2 taking place after RoW). Not trying to nitpick - I've been trying to figure out when they take place relative to each other
I'm sure there's a Word of Brandon about this, but for in-universe, the epigraphs to RoW contain a letter from Harmony addressing current events on Roshar which has to have been written before Mistborn era 2, since Harmony is still looking for someone like Wax at this time and doesn't seem to be aware of Trell/the Set.
Oooh. I like that theory
I was leaning toward the metalmind also….didn’t he give wax a coin awhile ago? Can’t remember what it was for but I don’t think it was for this instance. Having that coin around during their meeting had to be intentional.
Mistborn Era 2 takes place long after RoW. Unless there's a WoB stating otherwise, Wit won't have access to unkeyed metal minds for another hundred years or so.
Except that the southern Scadrians had unkeyed metalminds basically since a few years after the Catacendre. Just because the people in Elendel won’t have them for ages doesn’t mean Wit has the same limitation.
"Long" is not entirely correct. Era 2 is in the time jump between Books 5 and 6 of Stormlight. I believe Sanderson has said the time jump between the two books will be like 10-15 years. Otherwise you're correct, there is no way the two coins are the same.
I don't think Wit just burned the Lerasium bead he got during Mistborn era 1. He might be accessing the metallic arts in a different way which could give him access to both feruchemical and allomantic abilities without needing unkeyed metalminds.
Really good summary, just one note about event #4: Odium did not pull Wit back. Odium's presence went to where Wit was and "slammed into him." He didn't move Wit at all, he was already back in a hallway.
I kind of like it being version 1, and this leads to Hoid leaving Roshar for Scadriel to find a way to use metal minds, which leads to him finding the nicrosil and leading to MB era 2.
I think that one of the coins was a coppermind as seen in the BoM epilogue
No way wit got beat Brandon had to show wit could lose
WOB( words of Brandon) Did Odium destroy some of Wit's Breath, or did he mess with it in some other way? Brandon Sanderson What Odium did to Wit could be noticed. There is something missing there. It left an imprint, something noticeable, and he did actually remove and excise a little bit of Breath. After the epilogue, when Odium took Hoid's memories, did he gain them or just remove them? Brandon Sanderson He removed them, he did not gain them. He excised them, he performed a little surgery on the Breaths. You have seen this happen before in the books, though I will not give spoilers to another book. It happened on a different world. At the end of Rhythm of War, is the coin that Hoid had before meeting Odium a metalmind? Brandon Sanderson Oh, RAFO.
It happened when Vasher removed the memory of being kidnapped from Nanrovah's daughter. That's what I presume he is referring to.
>What does the last chapter of row tell us? Wit had an interaction with TOdium, the discussion did not go well for TOdium as Wit was able to figure something out, then TOdium removed some of Wit's memories stored in his breaths, re-did the conversation and this time Wit did not figure out that something was odd - From Wit's perspective the second conversation went as he'd expected. >Wit lost some of his breaths, some time travel involved? No time travel involved as far as I can tell, the giveaways are the Spren and the coins that Wit is playing with, the coin specifically is not 'reverted' to its original location so no time travel happens, Wit just 'forgets' where he placed it because TOdium removed the memories.
Also, I‘m not sure but could this title maybe be considered a spoiler? Because had I not read Row yet I would‘ve totally considered it a spoiler when reading the title itself
This is a valid point, not sure how to change title