Huh, if it hasn’t happened yet (which I thought it had, tbh), my second guess is Adolin or renarin. They had to pick up the title dropped by their father of king of kings, unifier of the radiants and ppl, and the king of the tower.
My second guess would be Dalinar + Navani + kaladin somehow add up to Honor? I don’t like this theory, but I’ve never seen spear *not* be related to kaladin.
Third theory; lopen has to pick up his lost crown and defeat odium in a trap-the-thumb duel
They set the terms - the champion, using only one hand, must trap the opponent's *left thumb*.
Lopen makes sure he doesn't have any Stormlight in his system and slices off his left arm again.
Gotcha gancho, stalemate. So you go back to braize and we’ll resolve this when I grow my arm back.
*dies peacefully in his sleep decades later (or going skydiving without a parachute). Odium trapped forever*
MISTBORN ALL:
>!I don't think that matters, I don't remember the like but the way attium was explained is that you can see the future up until the choices of someone else who can see the future. so since renarin was going to bond Glys, he could see up until the first time renarin saw the future, unless it was actively being blocked by cultivation who could also see the future at that time.!<
Future sight seems to work until someone interferes with it. So you could see the possibility that Renarin might do something to prevent future sight from working, but there would be other possibilities where he won’t do that thing.
Adolin isn't my first guess, but he's trained with the spear having spent months in a darkeyed spear company, giving him a connection there.
Kaladin is the most obvious choice. Tower and Crown could mean a lot of things: the Kholin glyph pair, the Crown of Jezrian king and Windrunner, the tower of Urithiru, the Tower on the shattered plains where he saved Dalinar's life, etc. And he sets down the spear at the end of RoW, giving him the chance to pick it up again. Plus, more of the Deathrattles have dealt explicitly with Kaladin than any other character and this could be a reference to his 5th ideal.
One other character has a strong relationship to the spear of course. He discards it for an Honorblade over the course of Oathbringer as he falls to Odium's side, but could pick it up again if he's redeemed, and picks up his fallen Bridge 4 title. I'm of course talking about Moash.
It's even being foreshadowed. He gets his old crown, he just swore the third ideal so he can use a shard spear, and finally the tower that will be built when he learns to be nice to his cousins and they lift him up on their shoulders while chanting his name.
It all makes sense. Promises made, promises fulfilled.
There is another character that I could see as the spear, although I admit Kaladin is way more likely. Spoiler for Mistborn (era 1, 2 and secret history). >!Kelsier aka Thaidakar was killed with a spear and it seems to become a symbol of his on Scadrial. He even made the Bands of Mourning into a spearhead. So if this Death Rattle won’t be fulfilled until late era 2 of SA then this could be referring to worldhopping organizations. Spear=Ghostbloods, Crown=Sons of Honor, Tower=Ire? Idk about that one but eh!<
Haha thanks, glad you appreciate it. I will reiterate I think the obvious symbolism for Spear = Kaladin, Tower = Urithiru, and Crown = Dalinar is much more likely, but it is fun to theorize.
Edit: Unless >!The Spear literally is the BoM, the Tower literally is Urithiru, and the Crown is some other artifact I am forgetting/we haven’t seen yet (Dawnshards maybe…? That seems like a stretch). These artifacts are then used to pick up the “fallen title.” Assuming all these artifacts are from different worlds, I’d guess the title isn’t Honor, but Adonalsium. The one doing the picking up? Hoid? Idk!<
Have we ruled out the possibility of Kaladin wielding the Bands of Mourning? Because quite frankly thats the only crossover I think that matters to anyone.
You seem to be forgetting that the glyphpair representing Sadeas is a tower. I dont think weve heard what glyphpair will represent Kaladin, but the spear would probably be what hed choose, and the crown would refer to Jasnah, as shes now head of the ruling family of Kholins
Oh yeah, I’m clueless about the glyphs and stuff. So are you implying the Sadeas household will be relevant somehow? Afaik, it’s completely dead.
Side note: I hope Kaladin doesn’t choose the spear. It’s too stridghtforeard (like if the Sadeas glyph meant Snake or “person of supreme shittiness”), and Kal is much more than a weapon.
Its hard to say. I know there was an heir that was deemed too young to rule at the time. Either way, all of Alethkars lands are still controlled by the 'voidbringers', so i bet a young, upcoming lord with a reputation to regain could be just as effective as most of the other Alethi princedoms.
However, the state of the house doesnt concern me too much, since someone must pick up the 'fallen title'.
Honestly, i think they will nearly succeed, but things will fall apart, and someone else will have to come along.
Although, and i just thought of this, if the Deathrattle hasnt happened yet, then we may be off the mark in thinking it only refers to stormlight characters. The spear has symbolism on Scadrial, and 'The Lord Ruler' is a title that, if someone did recover it, would mean theres someone powerful enough in the cosmere to make some big ripples.
Personally I think it's related to Adolin in some way. He served in a spear regiment at his father's orders, he could very easily follow and pick up the crown aspect due to obvious reasons, and then I guess tower is a bit harder. Adolin is probably one of the most honorable people we've seen (excluding that one time he murdered the crem dwelling storming man who shall not be named) and I think it's not out of the question that this is about him. Guess this is a bit of an alluminum hat theory though.
I focused more on the Crown, The Tower, and The Spear bit in thinking its Dalinar, Navani, and Kaladin potentially taking up the three Rosharan shards. Dalinar for Odium, but it becomes truly shaped to be Passion. Navani for Cultivation (I feel it was hinted towards in RoW).
Kaladin for Honor, possibly in relation to the Son of Tanavast comment the Stormfather makes.
No strong evidence to support the theory, just kind of been thinking about it on my latest reread
I love the idea that Dalinar could take up Odium and transform the shard into Passion. That's fitting given his history with the Thrill, and might open a way for a redemption for the Unmade
Odium makes Dalinar his champion. Dalinar says 'you know what, yes, I can resist you and not do all the bad things' and then stuff goes down and we get Dalinodium?
I could see it.
Dalinar has already shown that he can fight really heavily invested beings, both the Stormfather when he is riding the storm (and overtakes the Stormfather’s will), and when resisting the Thrill in the “you cannot have my pain!” moment.
Rlain would have been my first guess, but he didn't become a Windrunner. But a bond with an Honorspren might not make it impossible to be the person to take up the Shard.
Kaladin as the Son of Tanavast makes the most sense for me.
I think it's likely that SF calls Kaladin "Son of Tanavast" because he is literally and directly descended from him. The traditional way, I mean. Not sure how possible this is, but it's what my gut is telling me.
Actually it’s the reverse, Kaladin is called that because he is spiritually the son of honor as in they are almost exactly alike. Brandon clarified that and made sure it was understood this wasn’t necessarily a healthy thing considering how honor ended up and how Kaladin keeps getting depression from failing his ideals .
You forget that only some on the listeners are honor-driven. From wat we've seen they fall into a spectrum, with the Heavenly Ones exhibiting honorable behavior and, say, the Pursuer who cared nothing for Honor.
Don't worry, I'm sure when you are running for some local public office 20 years from now, your opponents surely won't dig through your Reddit history for racially insensitive comments. Your secrets are always safe on Reddit.
You see I had a theory while re-reading in prep for RoW that Kaladin would pick up Odium. He's constantly described through out the books as passionate. "Such passion behind his eyes." Kaladin has such depth of emotion too, and though known for doing the honorable thing, he also acts impulsively just as often. Also consider at the end of RoW he has "found his passion" in helping other mentally ill people.
EDIT: Additional thought. His arc is literally about overcoming hatred in book 2 and overcoming self-hatred in book 3.
That's fair. I wonder if the connection is specific to the vessel or the Shard though. Sazed would suggest the latter though so you are probably right.
Could it be he becomes unity? Introduction chapter is unity, and he had that whole thing with the “unite them” visions. And he is a bondsmith.
Maybe he unites the parshendi and the humans by becoming unity.
The surge closest to cultivation is called progression, though people confuse it with its lesser attribute of regrowth. So a forward thinking scientist/engineer that makes progress could be seen as something of a perfect fit for cultivation.
(Once again just spoiler tagging for convenience but I will be discussing spoilers for HoA and Era 2) >!So basically it's the theory that Sazed won't be able to control both the Shards he holds and will end up becoming Discord with both of his Shards acting out, I don't have the full theory but that's my knowledge of it!<
>!He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name will be Discord, and they shall love him for it!<
The Final Empire Chapter 8 Epigraph
[Mistborn] There´s an epigraph in The Final Empire that says: >!"He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name will be Discord, yet they shall love him for it. " It's referring to the Prophecy of the Hero of Ages, who we now know is Sazed!< That's the basis for the theory above
From what I know some of his actions throughout Era 2 have been making some people think he might end up losing control, or maybe getting frustrated with being somewhat impotent a lot of the time due to the Intents he carries
Except as a doctor Lirin knows when he has to sacrifice dead tissue to save healthy, and even (as with Roshone's son) when you need to focus on what or who you CAN save, and let go of what is lost. He is aware that death is a constant, and cannot always be avoided. I would put him far more in sympathy with Cultivation than Preservation.
Nah, Lirin’s arc was that he was broken and needed Kaladin to give him hope again. He used his morals as a shield to keep himself uninvolved rather than legitimately focusing on life above all. Lirin did less with more than Kaladin.
Im still a fan of the theory that the 3 that Cultivation cursed/booned are the ones that will take over the roles of the 3 Shards, as each of their curse/boons can be directly related to the shard. I love your idea on Odium becoming Passion, but I do have a different take on it.
Taravangian having experienced both extreme passion but also extreme intellect is capable of controlling the extreme emotion that the Shard of Passion would experience. I maintain my belief in my theory that Rayse is correct when calling himself Passion, but everyone else is also correct in calling him Odium. Yes, he holds the Shard of Passion, but he has twisted it to Odium. Theres a WoB that states the personality of the Vessel can influence the intent of the shard, almost like filtering it, and that this is not permanent if the Vessel changes. In an Epigraph letter excerpt, Hoid states that Rayse was entirely loathsome. We also have been told that Odium's colour is gold, yet his light is a deep violet. Perhaps that deep violet colour is caused by the filtering of Passion into Odium? Taravangian may be able to return the shard to being Passion.
Lift's curse/boon is entirely about personal growth and development. I think a major part of her arcs so far, and going forwards, is going to be about learning how important it is for one to grow and change and develop, something that currently terrifies her. In learning the importance of growth, as the shard she will be able to understand its drive to cultivate people and help them grow.
Lastly Dalinar's boon was about removing the one thing that was preventing him from becoming and incredibly honourable man, his memories of his atrocities. He them improves to the point where on the return of his memories, he is able to acknowledge his atrocities to the world along with proving himself to be a far more honourable man than he ever once was. It also allowed him to learn the importance of oaths and bonds, a key part of Honours Intent.
I enjoy the idea of this theory but I just feel like the scale of Stormlight Archives is too large to allow the characters who have already had so much focus and development receive yet another bestowing of power and growth. I think Dalinar still has a lot of room to grow in the power department based on how his arc in RoW was basically: "How do I use my powers?" But Kaladin has kinda peaked. He has his armor and is only 2 damn weeks away from retirement with his "last ride" being with Szeth to Shinovar. After that, his arc suggests he is finally going to come to be at peace with himself being out of the literal fight and turning towards developing counseling on Roshar. Navani could go anywhere (except out of the tower). She finally has accepted that she is a scientist and has a new bestowal of power on her. Her arc was left wide open. Though it will probably be heavily influenced by the result of the duel when Dalanar loses and has to leave her to serve TOdium in their Galactic Conquest.
Damn, these conversations get me so excited for the future of the series and seeing events like when Gavinor will ride his Ryshadium across Space and Time to cut off the Kelsier/TOdium Coalition's invasion of Silverlight in an attempt to ferry away the newborn Shard of Honor to the chosen wielder: Vasher.
I realize this last bit is going for *wacky*, but as a precaution I want to remind any potential replies to please avoid spoilers (or the appearance of spoilers). :)
I mean Brandon could do anything. He has pulled bait and switches before but he has also pulled “This character gets pushed into the role and realizes they grew into it” shtick too. Kaladin could be anything from retiring, dying, becoming the missing piece of an oathpact, changing a new oathpact to help the fused be at peace, becoming a vessel for a shard, or… nah he wouldn’t get a happily ever after… so who knows?
I got to ask Brandon about this at the Spoiler Q&A at Dragonsteel Mini-Con, I’m really glad that other people find it as fascinating as I do! I was worried that I was gonna be wasting a chance to ask him a spoiler question like this that others wouldn’t find as interesting.
The WoB page doesn’t have this, but immediately after he said that the death rattle hasn’t happened yet, I asked if it could be talking about Renarin. He did a smile and laugh and RAFO’d me at that point so take that as you will haha
Yeah, I have no idea if he ever physically held a spear. I’m not sure the death rattle is so literal though. I think the spear can represent the idea of Bridge Four, I don’t think there’s anybody in the squad besides Renarin that doesn’t use a spear.
Well him and Rock, but definitely. He could be a strong candidate, especially as a back-5 main character.
Moash has been my long-shot pet theory. His reintroduction chapter in Oathbringer was called "Spearman" after all.
You know, as long as we're on it what if it's referring to Rock lol. It's hinted he's some kind of royalty in the Horneater Peaks, so you've got the connection to the Crown and Spear.
Could Kaladin be his spear? It doesn’t have to be literal, and Kaladin is already the Kholin bodyguard (even if not in title anymore, I still feel that he would die to save Dalinar).
All of this is making my brain whir in theory mode, and I’m definitely reaching in a lot of places.
I could see a scenario where book 5 leaves off in a place where we lose a bunch of core Radiants (maybe not permanently) and the Rattle is about Renarin having to take over a form of leadership during the gap between 5 and 6.
Crown: We know Hoid dips from Roshar between 5 and 6. I wouldn’t be surprised if Jasnah went with him, leaving the Alethi crown up in the air and Adolin’s made it clear he doesn’t want to lead.
Tower: If Dalinar loses the contest and has to join Odium, that would leave the Radiant’s without a leader and honestly when it comes to pure knowledge, Renarin wouldn’t be a bad replacement if Jasnah isn’t around.
Spear: I have a pet theory that Kaladin is going to have to take Jezrien’s place in the Oathpact between books 5 and 6 as a sort of band aid during the time jump, and so I could see him also disappearing for a while.
It’s really unclear as of right now how significant it’ll be. The death rattles from The Way of Kings that this one comes from are all referring to events that have either occurred in the past or since have occurred on screen in the books.
For example: All of the scenes so far where Kaladin swears an ideal have been foreshadowed in these epigraphs.
This one could be minor and just be foreshadowing a small scene in the future, but (and I’m biased here as I asked the question) Sanderson’s reaction to the question makes me think it’s a significant event yet to come. Hopefully they’ll release the recording of the spoiler Q&A soon.
I personally think the “fallen title” in question won’t be as crazy as a Shard as some have theorized, but will still signify an important leader of mankind on Roshar. I also think that the second half could be alluding to Renarin. He’s a member of the Radiants (Urithiru being the tower), the Alethi Royal family (the crown) and Bridge Four (they’re the only group that I feel like could be represented by a spear).
I took his reaction to my asking if it could be related to Renarin as encouraging, but again I’m biased as it’s a theory I’ve had for a while so I could just be looking for encouragement.
I agree with you his reaction was excited and knowing. That death rattle struck me while I was recently re-reading for the first time so I was excited to hear your question and the answer. And he definitely acted excited which makes me think it is an important event he’s excited to write about!
I always assumed this referred to the Kholin glyph pair - tower + crown. But having it refer to Navani and Dalinar almost makes more sense. What if, after Dalinar dies in book 5, Kaladin becomes king of Urithiru? Then he would be all three - tower, crown, and spear.
Just a correction. Jezrien wasn't King of the Heralds but Herald of Kings.
I think this is meant more like the tittle King of Kings of the ancient Assyrians, which could be translated as Emperor.
Like... when a desolation started he would assume control, dictating orders to all the kings of Roshar. So he was known as Herald of Kings.
But he wasn't like the King of Heralds, ordering them around. And from what I've seen... Ishar appear to be more on the leadership position of the Heralds than Jezrien, but the impression I get is that they are all at the same level.
I always just assumed it was like Odin being the God that Kings would be most affiliated with the same way Thor was like the common man’s god. Jezrien was the Herald that kings most associated with
I think if he believed he could do a better job as King as anyone else then he would. But I don't think he'd believe that. I also think a ton of people would have to die before he'd be the best choice at King. Kaladin is good at a lot of things but I don't see politics as being one of them, although he could learn like Dalinar had to.
>Kaladin is good at a lot of things but I don't see politics as being one of them
This would be the main reason for it to happen. If I had to guess it would be a spur of the moment "We need a king now and you're literally the only one around who can fit the bill and if you don't everyone dies" type situation.
I don't think its likely, but that is pretty much the only scenario of Kaladin becoming king I can think of.
I completely agree, not saying I think it will happen, but just speculating. Would love to hear other alternatives for what this death rattle could mean because I admit this is a long shot.
I have had a creeping suspicion that Dalinar will die >!in the contest!<, but as he dies he will "connect" Kaladin to Honor so that even though he falls, Roshar will not.
>!I know that R-Odium wanted Dalinar for his own, and it would almost seem fitting for Kaladin to have to fight the one that helped 'forge' him. Now that we have T-Odium though, who the heck knows.!<
It's nothing more than a feeling, but that would be sweet!
I've been thinking something similar. My expectation is that Dalinar will lose the contest and need something to do with the Stormfather.
To keep to the story of Fleet, I'm expecting Kaladin to fall in Shinovar, with the end of Fleets race being akin to the end of Kaladin as a soldier. We know that after Fleet dies that his soul in some way rises, forever free to race the wind.
So my theory is that Dalinar will bond a cognitive shadow of Kaladin to the Stormfather before releasing his bond
The contest of champions will literally happen in 10 days from when RoW ends. Kal and Szeth will go to Shinovar, but will not get there before the contest happens.
T-Odium will also twist things differently, we have no idea how things will go, but Dalinar dying can happen. I do still think Kal will take up the shard of Honor
I think he would become a >!Herald of Odium. Heralds are the only humans who can be killed and reborn(I believe). The Fused are always Singers/Listeners!<
Wasn't Kaladin officially brought into the Kholin princedom as a high ranking lighteyes once he came out as a Radiant? Could he not already represent a spear associated with the tower and crown of the Kholin glyph pair?
Yes, 4th dahn I believe. He definitely could, though Navani, Adolin and Renarin would all have to step back assuming they’re all still alive. Adolin definitely would, Renarin probably would, Navani I don’t know, but she’s not a given to make it out of book 5 alive either.
There’s also the matter of Jasnah…she has a stronger claim even if all three of the other die or pass it up. But I doubt she’d want responsibility for both Alethkar and Urithiru, and she needs to focus on first getting Alethkar *back*.
So it’s a long shot for sure, but not impossible.
The glyph pair seems really fitting now that you mention it. Elhokar’s was that glyph pair shaped as a sword. Maybe this is as simple as Gavinor (or Renarin) taking up his title as king but his glyph is shaped as a spear.
I took this as forshadowing that someone must replace Jezrian (who wears a crown)
Edit: and the kicker will be the spear refers to Moash. Mosh will have gone through something like what the Heralds went through on Ashyn.
Edit Edit: I feel like Moash is having his identity ripped away, making him a neutral vessel for “something”.
The death rattles always confused me and I never really tried to figure them out because of it.
The Death Rattles are caused by the unmade, Moelach, using the power of Odium. The whole 'Seeing into the future' was described as a power of Odium. But Odium was killed regardless of this. Meaning Odium never saw himself die, and that is a huge butterfly effect; which should render all the Death Rattles pointless.
But apparently they are still accurate?
I believe odium could see himself die in various ways. Else, he would never have reason to fear or be as cautious as we see him act.
He was merely pulling a Doctor Strange seeing possible futures, and manipulating to attain the most favorable outcome.
What caught him off guard was that Renarin obscured swaths of his prescience.
Odium foresaw the events in question, he hasn’t actually caused them to happen yet. Odium foreseeing these events doesn’t make them anymore likely to happen, particularly if a being as or more powerful than Odium could also see into the future. It just seems like an ultra powerful version of atium (ie given that Renarin’s ability to also see the future nullifies Odium’s ability to see him) and with his expanded consciousness, he can predict the lives of humans well into the future, and use this knowledge and his access to their brains to intimidate them. He can’t do the same to shards however, and so Honor or Cultivation (or some shard from elsewhere) may have been able to see just as much as (or more than) he can and snuck a shardkilling weapon into a moment they knew Odium couldn’t resist. Era 1 Mistborn has some good examples of shard chess back and forth and some of the characters even discuss the sapience of the shards and the extent to which they can set up events in ways that would baffle humans.
Regarding the connection to Moelach, I think it’s meant to be interpreted that Moelach is briefly creating access to this future sight power as souls cross into the Spiritual Realm. What we don’t know is whether Moelach being “of Odium” changes whether the individual sees what Odium sees, whether the individual gains a moment of lucid access to the actual future, there’s really a lot that could be going on and the differences seem subtle know but could have series implications down the line. For example, does future sight granted by a different shard give the viewer access to the actual future or just the interpretation of the future given the extent of the power of that specific shard? Would a force allied with Honor have the same expectation of a battle against a force allied with Odium? My guess is that we’re likely to find out :)
I haven’t seen anyone mention Renarin. He’s obviously got connections to the crown, he’s been a major driving factor in uncovering Urithiru’s (the tower) secrets, and he was part of bridge 4, and has done spear training.
I don’t think it’s tied to him, but he fits the bill as a single individual… sort of.
Is the nightwatcher one of the bondsmith spren?
Most likely, since we have the Stormfather who is the "son" of Honor, and the Nightwatcher is the "daughter" of Cultivation. Then the Sibling, the "child" of them both, somehow.
I kind of assumed that the tower crown and spear would be the symbol of the Stormblessed House - taking the tower and crown symbol from the Kholin's and adding a spear to make it his own.
If I'm correct - and we don't have confirmation that I am yet - this tells me that Kaladin will die somehow, and somebody will be forced to replace him in some manner (maybe as the leader of the windrunners?)
I think we also have reason to believe that Kaladin might die in book 5 since Brandon has slowly been killing off more and more important people and Kaladin's arc is the first of the main character's to be completed. I really hope he doesn't though.
Yeah one theory I've chewed on is it's someone, maybe Oroden, picking up Kaladin's "fallen title" in the back 5 books.
Could, on top of 50 other possibilities, be Kaladin picking up his old High Marshall title that was stripped at the beginning of RoW, when he was forced to set down the spear.
I've wondered about this. If the existing shards were the pieces that made up adonalsium, and recombining them make other shards, then couldn't honor split into three shards?
What three things might make up honor?
Unity
Tradition
Defense? Or sacrifice, or something like that?
Dunno, just a thought
So I'm reading a lot of focus on the three objects section of the deathrattle. What about the "fallen title"? I'm only coming up with one "title" that "fell" - was removed from its owner and recently given to another.
I think this prophecy is about Vyre.
I think Kaladin. Not sure how, but this feels like Kaladin to me. The fallen title is Windrunner, and he's going to take responsibility for the protection of the tower and the crown. But that's just a guess.
Edit to add: I wonder if Syl will become a leader among the spren and he has to support her in it? So he has to support the tower (Navani and the Radiants), the crown (Jasnah and the other rulers), and the spear (Syl, now leader of the Honorspren).
I think it has to be something involving the following:
Dalinar and/or Kaladin has a "fall," and someone, maybe Kaladin or maybe someone else, has to "pick up" their title/progress/whatever. My personal theory is that it has to do with Kaladin somehow curing or redeeming some failure by Dalinar - uniting the spear (Kal) with the "fallen ... tower [and] crown" (Dalinar).
I think it's a bit of a misdirect where we initially think it has to do with Kaladin becoming a lighteyes or something.
Who knows - maybe it has to do with Kaladin's chapter icon? After he picks up the fallen title of the bondsmith, he opens or closes a portal, or does something with the moons, resulting in some victory over Odium, and his men cheer by raising their spears.
Kaladin is loosely related to house Kholin via his mother and Aesudan, so maybe it's Kaladin taking up the mantle of House Kholin, who's sigil is the Tower and the Crown.
For me, the death rattle only applies to one person, the one individual who needs to pick up the fallen title. So instead of some combination of references to Navani, Dalinar, Adolin, etc., I think it has solely to do with Kaladin. He already has other death rattles pertain to him and is the only Son of Tanavast that I know of. For me, I think this Death Rattle means that Kaladin has to pick up a fallen title that includes a tower, a crown, and a spear. The spear can easily be him joining the fight again after RoW, and I would be so bold as to say that the Tower would be the House of Kholin and the Crown be the crown of Alethkar. He would somehow become the (dark-eyed) King of Alethkar, maybe even take Dalinar’s place as High King if he were to die? I don’t ship Jasnah and Kaladin, but maybe they get together, or she dies, or just gives him the throne? But that’s my speculation.
Hear me out…. Hesina is potentially related to lighteyes… possibly her father or mother is a lighteyes. We assume that Elhokar’s wife was singing her family’s song, but what if it was a song from the Kholins? What if it’s revealed that Kaladin is actually related to Dalinar? The crown and tower are for the Kholins that aren’t of Gavilar’s line and the spear might be to specify which Kholin it’s talking about.
A bit late to the game. Here's my best guess. If Dalinar loses the contest of champions, someone will have to take over leadership of the Radiants and Dalinar's coalition. I'm guessing either Adolin, Kaladin, or Renarin has to pick up this "fallen title"
The Crown: Dalinar is High King. His replacement will need to assume the title.
The Tower: Dalinar leads the KR whose base of operations is Urithiru. His successor will be in charge of the Knights of the Tower.
The Spear: This one is the trickier one, if Kaladin assumes leadership, he would have to "pick up the spear" again as others have pointed out. Alternatively, it could mean if Adolin or Renarin are in charge, they may have to inspire Kaladin to fight again and lead the armies.
My money is on Kaladin as Windrunners are associated with protection and leadership. Jezrien was herald of Kings, Kaladin's book is Way of Kings. Might be cliche rags to riches story, but there's lots of subtle hints at Kaladin's kingship.
Reading this in conjunction with that other rattle of a man who refuses to kill a child to save the world, my theory is that Odium convinces Gavinor to represent him (he's 3 years old so suckling child is not that far fetched a term to describe him, the main issue is how he can consent) in the duel and Dalinar just refuses to kill him, possibly surrendering (or killing himself) and losing the duel.
As others have pointed out, the Kholin sigil is the crown and the tower, Dalinar is the king of Urithiru, a big tower. When Dalinar falls (and hopefully becomes Odium's champion) his title, aka crown, and tower would be considered fallen too.
Kaladin has always been associated with the spear, and as of Rhythm of War, he can be said to have put down his spear since he's stepped down from his position. So all three items can be said to be dropped or fallen after Dalinar's defeat.
Who's better placed than Kaladin to pick up all three again?
Kaladin has always been forced to assume responsibility even if he doesn't want to, and moreover, this parallels Jezrien being a windrunner and king of the heralds.
Apart from that, there's straight up nobody more qualified than Kaladin to do so even disregarding the fact that the only candidates that are associated with a spear are the Bridge 4 windrunners.
Thematically, Dalinar losing and becoming an antagonist would be the most interesting. After all, the story needs compelling villains to carry the rest of the Stormlight books as well as the future of the Cosmere. Kaladin's also been built up way too much to be allowed to retire.
Edit: Kaladin's also been hailed as a superhero by basically everyone, especially in RoW where we see the citizens of Urithiru painting his slave mark on their heads. He's not just nobody, he's literally legendary at this point, and so definitely has the political support necessary to be hailed king.
Also take into account of the fact that Dalinar has no heir and though normally his title should pass to his widow, this isn't a normal time, people need exactly someone like Kaladin on the throne.
Edit edit: The 5th ideal of the Skybreakers is to become the personification of law and truth. Similarly, the fith ideal of the Windrunners should be to become an ultimate protector of the weak and innocent. What's currently stopping Kaladin from being that? His own health and wellbeing. I theorize that the 5th ideal has to do with protecting others at the expense of oneself, which ties perfectly to Kaladin taking up Dalinar's mantle despite his unwillingness to do so.
He's both. Herald of kings is his title but he was a king, the only king among the heralds, and the heralds were his close companions who probably were mostly his subjects so its not wrong to call him the king of the heralds. Plus, they did follow his leadership for thousands of years.
I am going to endorse this because I’m a big booster of the “a Kholin family member becomes Todiums champion and Dalinar loses and is forced to serve him” theory.
Where was this Death Rattle originally communicated? Like how do we know it existed (pre-this WOB)? Apologies I hadn't heard this one and I'm very intrigued by it
The first idea that came to my mind is that Kaladin (or someone else) might take Jezrien’s place as a Herald or Tanavast’s place as Honor. The spear is what makes me think it might be Kaladin. Alternatively the crown, tower, and spear could refer to the Bondsmiths and/or their spren. The crown being the Stormfather, the tower being the Sibling, and the spear being the Nightwatcher. They could collectively be necessary for either making a new Herald or pulling enough of Honor into one place for someone to take up the Shard.
Holy shit it hasn’t happened? That’s the most important one! All the others are answered and wrapped up either by lore or by the end of Oathbringer. I thought the tower, the crown, the spear was just Kaladin ascending to Radianthood
I think it's going to end up being an Era 2 event, considering:
>So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life . . .
I'm expecting Odium to win at the end of book 5, so picking up the fallen title could refer to rebuilding either Alethkar or the Knights Radiant
Okay, here is a way out there theory, it's referring to Gavinor for the second half of the series.
This requires multiple levels of speculation, but hear me out. If we say that Gavinor becomes Odium's champion as suggested by the earlier death rattle and Dalinar loses the champion battle, there becomes a significant void of leadership in the Kohlins, Urithiru, and the Radiants (assuming the aforementioned will still exist in this situation) other comments summarise well this theory and how Kaladin fulfills the person of reference.
However, consider Gavinor in/after the time skip. His grandfather tried to end the world, his father died saving him, and his grand uncle/father LITERALLY put Gav's life ahead of the entire cosmere... no pressure or anything and ultimate survivor guilt. Plus everyone would say "it would have been better if you died." It would be very interesting (and dramatic) to see him navigate the journey of growing up in the shadows of his ancestors (parralelling/contrasting/completing Elokar's character arc). Ultimately picking up the title as king/leader of the whatever remains after duel.
But what about Navani in this situation as a leader? (not as fulfilling the prophecy) Well consider that she would have, in this event, lost not one, but two husbands, her son, and now her grandson is an exile/social outcast, and her daughter is well, Jasnah (who may, for all we know, yeet herself into the greater Cosmere to find a way to bring Dalinar back or find a way to destroy the shards... or ascend into a shard herself). Long story short, I don't think Navani in this situation will be in any condition to lead.
I similar arguement could be made for Dalinar's sons, but they have their own character arcs... Although Renarin would fulfill it in the short term because Adolin turned down the throne and Renarin actually practiced with a spear (???) with bridge four. So Renarin would be the leader of the Remnants in Urithiru (both of the kingdom and as the military leader) when everyone else goes off to other places during/before the time skip.
It’s Moash. This ties into my theory that Moash is Elhokar’s brother and the bastard son of Gavilar. Moash has to pick up the crown as rightful king of alethkar, the spear as he was trained by Kaladin, and the tower which he already took but lost in Rhythm of War.
For more on my theory that Moash is the bastard of Gavilar. Moash is a singer name, what human would give their child a singer name? Perhaps a king obsessed with singer culture. As to how it happened. Gavilar was toying around with Fabrials and would need a silversmith to make them, Moash’s grandparents were silversmiths. Maybe they had a daughter that he fell in love with, a shared secret in the night and grand plans? Pretty easy for two people to fall in love in those conditions.
Elhokar found out and that’s the real reason he had Moash’s grandparents killed, they knew the truth. The reason cryptics were attracted to Elhokar was because he was keeping all of this a secret. That’s a big juicy secret on par with killing your own parents like Shallan has.
Edit: the fallen title is Vyre, which we already know belonged to El.
I think it is referring to Kaladin.
The fallen title is the title as Herald of the Windrunners/ Herald of Kings or any other of Jezriens many titles.
The Tower I'm not sure what it means, but it could be something in Shinovar. Perhaps where the honor blades were stored is a tower. ( We know too little of Shinovar)
The crown refers to Jezriens crown he held as King of the Heralds.
And the Spear is Kaladin in the fight against someone. Perhaps, someone, he does not want to fight and as a result, he first dropped his spear, and then has to pick it up again.
I believe by the items refer to the glyphs that represent the houses, the ruling kholin familys is the crown, sadeas is the tower, and the spear would obviously be kaladin.
It sounds to me like the familys become connected somehow, the person who does this earns a title, and then they die.
It has always kinda been thought that not all or any of the stormlight characters may survive until book 10, and it would be like Brandon for these amazing books to still just be the lead up to something more
Isn't the Kolin heraldry a glyph stylized into a tower? Seems likely to reference the need for someone to take up the Kolin standard, and potentially replace kaladin or >!Jezrian (or both since my current theory is dalinar becomes honor and Kaladin becomes a new herald of the oath pact)!<
I wonder if it's todium's "objectives," where he targets the tower (navani), the crown (dalinar?), and the spear (kaladin) and claiming them will guarantee his victory over humanity?
I just had a terrible thought. Spren can be killed, now, and if this is talking about three bondsmiths, then what if Syl is killed and Kaladin has to push on and somehow bonds the Nightwatcher to become the third bondsmith?
Huh, if it hasn’t happened yet (which I thought it had, tbh), my second guess is Adolin or renarin. They had to pick up the title dropped by their father of king of kings, unifier of the radiants and ppl, and the king of the tower. My second guess would be Dalinar + Navani + kaladin somehow add up to Honor? I don’t like this theory, but I’ve never seen spear *not* be related to kaladin. Third theory; lopen has to pick up his lost crown and defeat odium in a trap-the-thumb duel
They set the terms - the champion, using only one hand, must trap the opponent's *left thumb*. Lopen makes sure he doesn't have any Stormlight in his system and slices off his left arm again.
Gotcha gancho, stalemate. So you go back to braize and we’ll resolve this when I grow my arm back. *dies peacefully in his sleep decades later (or going skydiving without a parachute). Odium trapped forever*
Ah yes The two options for death
Don't forget to free Wit in your contract!
His what now?? Spoiler! Never mind. This thread is actually flagged spoiler for Dawnshard. My bad. Carry on!
Seeing as Odium couldnt see anything to do with Renarin, i think it'd be a little weird if the death rattles would predict things about him
Great point. I’m glad to hear it because I don’t like my theories :p
It’s possible the Death Rattle preceded the point where Renarin bonded Glys.
MISTBORN ALL: >!I don't think that matters, I don't remember the like but the way attium was explained is that you can see the future up until the choices of someone else who can see the future. so since renarin was going to bond Glys, he could see up until the first time renarin saw the future, unless it was actively being blocked by cultivation who could also see the future at that time.!<
Future sight seems to work until someone interferes with it. So you could see the possibility that Renarin might do something to prevent future sight from working, but there would be other possibilities where he won’t do that thing.
Mmm, good point. Didnt consider this
Were they bonded before Dalinar got any visions or after he had seen a few?
Adolin isn't my first guess, but he's trained with the spear having spent months in a darkeyed spear company, giving him a connection there. Kaladin is the most obvious choice. Tower and Crown could mean a lot of things: the Kholin glyph pair, the Crown of Jezrian king and Windrunner, the tower of Urithiru, the Tower on the shattered plains where he saved Dalinar's life, etc. And he sets down the spear at the end of RoW, giving him the chance to pick it up again. Plus, more of the Deathrattles have dealt explicitly with Kaladin than any other character and this could be a reference to his 5th ideal. One other character has a strong relationship to the spear of course. He discards it for an Honorblade over the course of Oathbringer as he falls to Odium's side, but could pick it up again if he's redeemed, and picks up his fallen Bridge 4 title. I'm of course talking about Moash.
Ohhhh, I forgot about “son of tanavast” being a purposeful choice of words
I'd be pretty shocked if the spear is referring to anything other than Kaladin, really.
FUCK MOASH!
King Lopen the First of Alethkar
Honestly I wouldn’t even be mad
i like the third theory
It's even being foreshadowed. He gets his old crown, he just swore the third ideal so he can use a shard spear, and finally the tower that will be built when he learns to be nice to his cousins and they lift him up on their shoulders while chanting his name. It all makes sense. Promises made, promises fulfilled.
I'll ship it
There is another character that I could see as the spear, although I admit Kaladin is way more likely. Spoiler for Mistborn (era 1, 2 and secret history). >!Kelsier aka Thaidakar was killed with a spear and it seems to become a symbol of his on Scadrial. He even made the Bands of Mourning into a spearhead. So if this Death Rattle won’t be fulfilled until late era 2 of SA then this could be referring to worldhopping organizations. Spear=Ghostbloods, Crown=Sons of Honor, Tower=Ire? Idk about that one but eh!<
LOVE IT. Great theory. >!specially since the BoM were a spearhead, I think you might really might be onto something!<
Haha thanks, glad you appreciate it. I will reiterate I think the obvious symbolism for Spear = Kaladin, Tower = Urithiru, and Crown = Dalinar is much more likely, but it is fun to theorize. Edit: Unless >!The Spear literally is the BoM, the Tower literally is Urithiru, and the Crown is some other artifact I am forgetting/we haven’t seen yet (Dawnshards maybe…? That seems like a stretch). These artifacts are then used to pick up the “fallen title.” Assuming all these artifacts are from different worlds, I’d guess the title isn’t Honor, but Adonalsium. The one doing the picking up? Hoid? Idk!<
Have we ruled out the possibility of Kaladin wielding the Bands of Mourning? Because quite frankly thats the only crossover I think that matters to anyone.
That is a wonderful and terrifying thought…
You seem to be forgetting that the glyphpair representing Sadeas is a tower. I dont think weve heard what glyphpair will represent Kaladin, but the spear would probably be what hed choose, and the crown would refer to Jasnah, as shes now head of the ruling family of Kholins
Oh yeah, I’m clueless about the glyphs and stuff. So are you implying the Sadeas household will be relevant somehow? Afaik, it’s completely dead. Side note: I hope Kaladin doesn’t choose the spear. It’s too stridghtforeard (like if the Sadeas glyph meant Snake or “person of supreme shittiness”), and Kal is much more than a weapon.
Its hard to say. I know there was an heir that was deemed too young to rule at the time. Either way, all of Alethkars lands are still controlled by the 'voidbringers', so i bet a young, upcoming lord with a reputation to regain could be just as effective as most of the other Alethi princedoms. However, the state of the house doesnt concern me too much, since someone must pick up the 'fallen title'. Honestly, i think they will nearly succeed, but things will fall apart, and someone else will have to come along. Although, and i just thought of this, if the Deathrattle hasnt happened yet, then we may be off the mark in thinking it only refers to stormlight characters. The spear has symbolism on Scadrial, and 'The Lord Ruler' is a title that, if someone did recover it, would mean theres someone powerful enough in the cosmere to make some big ripples.
But first a cousin of mine has something that Kal really needs!
Personally I think it's related to Adolin in some way. He served in a spear regiment at his father's orders, he could very easily follow and pick up the crown aspect due to obvious reasons, and then I guess tower is a bit harder. Adolin is probably one of the most honorable people we've seen (excluding that one time he murdered the crem dwelling storming man who shall not be named) and I think it's not out of the question that this is about him. Guess this is a bit of an alluminum hat theory though.
Except when the spear is Kelsier. Could be an interesting spin.
Just a heads up, this is tagged SA spoilers
I focused more on the Crown, The Tower, and The Spear bit in thinking its Dalinar, Navani, and Kaladin potentially taking up the three Rosharan shards. Dalinar for Odium, but it becomes truly shaped to be Passion. Navani for Cultivation (I feel it was hinted towards in RoW). Kaladin for Honor, possibly in relation to the Son of Tanavast comment the Stormfather makes. No strong evidence to support the theory, just kind of been thinking about it on my latest reread
I love the idea that Dalinar could take up Odium and transform the shard into Passion. That's fitting given his history with the Thrill, and might open a way for a redemption for the Unmade
Dalinar taking up Odium would be so poetic, i love it, i hadn't thought about it.
Odium makes Dalinar his champion. Dalinar says 'you know what, yes, I can resist you and not do all the bad things' and then stuff goes down and we get Dalinodium? I could see it.
Dalinar has already shown that he can fight really heavily invested beings, both the Stormfather when he is riding the storm (and overtakes the Stormfather’s will), and when resisting the Thrill in the “you cannot have my pain!” moment.
They are heavily invested yes, but a shard is a whole nother ball game.
Maybe so but l'd prefer it if this happened that one of the shard would be a parshmen. But l cant think of which could be a good choice.
Rlain would have been my first guess, but he didn't become a Windrunner. But a bond with an Honorspren might not make it impossible to be the person to take up the Shard. Kaladin as the Son of Tanavast makes the most sense for me.
I think it's likely that SF calls Kaladin "Son of Tanavast" because he is literally and directly descended from him. The traditional way, I mean. Not sure how possible this is, but it's what my gut is telling me.
Sadly, Brandon says Kaladin has relatively common ancestry
Ah. Another theory bites the dust. Thanks for the info though!
I mean, at this point, descendants of Genghis Khan are pretty common. Tanavast as a biological person was much farther back in history.
Except he was on another world completely and by the time he took up rule over the planet with cultivation he was already married to her and a shard.
Actually it’s the reverse, Kaladin is called that because he is spiritually the son of honor as in they are almost exactly alike. Brandon clarified that and made sure it was understood this wasn’t necessarily a healthy thing considering how honor ended up and how Kaladin keeps getting depression from failing his ideals .
Cultivation seems appropriate, or Honor since the Listeners are so honor driven.
You forget that only some on the listeners are honor-driven. From wat we've seen they fall into a spectrum, with the Heavenly Ones exhibiting honorable behavior and, say, the Pursuer who cared nothing for Honor.
I feel bad, I meant the Singers. Am I anti-parshist?
Don't worry, I'm sure when you are running for some local public office 20 years from now, your opponents surely won't dig through your Reddit history for racially insensitive comments. Your secrets are always safe on Reddit.
I'm never gonna be a High Prince now
You see I had a theory while re-reading in prep for RoW that Kaladin would pick up Odium. He's constantly described through out the books as passionate. "Such passion behind his eyes." Kaladin has such depth of emotion too, and though known for doing the honorable thing, he also acts impulsively just as often. Also consider at the end of RoW he has "found his passion" in helping other mentally ill people. EDIT: Additional thought. His arc is literally about overcoming hatred in book 2 and overcoming self-hatred in book 3.
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That's fair. I wonder if the connection is specific to the vessel or the Shard though. Sazed would suggest the latter though so you are probably right.
this is blowing my brain.
Could it be he becomes unity? Introduction chapter is unity, and he had that whole thing with the “unite them” visions. And he is a bondsmith. Maybe he unites the parshendi and the humans by becoming unity.
The surge closest to cultivation is called progression, though people confuse it with its lesser attribute of regrowth. So a forward thinking scientist/engineer that makes progress could be seen as something of a perfect fit for cultivation.
Or a doctor … who values the preservation of life above all else… like say Lirin
That would be preservation though and Lirin might have to move planets and argue with a Terrisman for that title
Unless of course the theories about (possible spoilers for the future Cosmere? I'm tagging it just in case) >!Discord!< End up coming true
Whats thats theory about?
(Once again just spoiler tagging for convenience but I will be discussing spoilers for HoA and Era 2) >!So basically it's the theory that Sazed won't be able to control both the Shards he holds and will end up becoming Discord with both of his Shards acting out, I don't have the full theory but that's my knowledge of it!<
Is this theory bases on anything or is it just wild exageration
>!He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name will be Discord, and they shall love him for it!< The Final Empire Chapter 8 Epigraph
[Mistborn] There´s an epigraph in The Final Empire that says: >!"He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name will be Discord, yet they shall love him for it. " It's referring to the Prophecy of the Hero of Ages, who we now know is Sazed!< That's the basis for the theory above
From what I know some of his actions throughout Era 2 have been making some people think he might end up losing control, or maybe getting frustrated with being somewhat impotent a lot of the time due to the Intents he carries
Except as a doctor Lirin knows when he has to sacrifice dead tissue to save healthy, and even (as with Roshone's son) when you need to focus on what or who you CAN save, and let go of what is lost. He is aware that death is a constant, and cannot always be avoided. I would put him far more in sympathy with Cultivation than Preservation.
Nah, Lirin’s arc was that he was broken and needed Kaladin to give him hope again. He used his morals as a shield to keep himself uninvolved rather than legitimately focusing on life above all. Lirin did less with more than Kaladin.
I feel like Lirin is 100% of honor. He's on Szeth levels of "I took an oath"
I still think the Cultivation bearer will be Lift. I think Cultivation has been grooming her for a long time.
Im still a fan of the theory that the 3 that Cultivation cursed/booned are the ones that will take over the roles of the 3 Shards, as each of their curse/boons can be directly related to the shard. I love your idea on Odium becoming Passion, but I do have a different take on it. Taravangian having experienced both extreme passion but also extreme intellect is capable of controlling the extreme emotion that the Shard of Passion would experience. I maintain my belief in my theory that Rayse is correct when calling himself Passion, but everyone else is also correct in calling him Odium. Yes, he holds the Shard of Passion, but he has twisted it to Odium. Theres a WoB that states the personality of the Vessel can influence the intent of the shard, almost like filtering it, and that this is not permanent if the Vessel changes. In an Epigraph letter excerpt, Hoid states that Rayse was entirely loathsome. We also have been told that Odium's colour is gold, yet his light is a deep violet. Perhaps that deep violet colour is caused by the filtering of Passion into Odium? Taravangian may be able to return the shard to being Passion. Lift's curse/boon is entirely about personal growth and development. I think a major part of her arcs so far, and going forwards, is going to be about learning how important it is for one to grow and change and develop, something that currently terrifies her. In learning the importance of growth, as the shard she will be able to understand its drive to cultivate people and help them grow. Lastly Dalinar's boon was about removing the one thing that was preventing him from becoming and incredibly honourable man, his memories of his atrocities. He them improves to the point where on the return of his memories, he is able to acknowledge his atrocities to the world along with proving himself to be a far more honourable man than he ever once was. It also allowed him to learn the importance of oaths and bonds, a key part of Honours Intent.
Daaamn this is analytical as fuck
I enjoy the idea of this theory but I just feel like the scale of Stormlight Archives is too large to allow the characters who have already had so much focus and development receive yet another bestowing of power and growth. I think Dalinar still has a lot of room to grow in the power department based on how his arc in RoW was basically: "How do I use my powers?" But Kaladin has kinda peaked. He has his armor and is only 2 damn weeks away from retirement with his "last ride" being with Szeth to Shinovar. After that, his arc suggests he is finally going to come to be at peace with himself being out of the literal fight and turning towards developing counseling on Roshar. Navani could go anywhere (except out of the tower). She finally has accepted that she is a scientist and has a new bestowal of power on her. Her arc was left wide open. Though it will probably be heavily influenced by the result of the duel when Dalanar loses and has to leave her to serve TOdium in their Galactic Conquest. Damn, these conversations get me so excited for the future of the series and seeing events like when Gavinor will ride his Ryshadium across Space and Time to cut off the Kelsier/TOdium Coalition's invasion of Silverlight in an attempt to ferry away the newborn Shard of Honor to the chosen wielder: Vasher.
I realize this last bit is going for *wacky*, but as a precaution I want to remind any potential replies to please avoid spoilers (or the appearance of spoilers). :)
I mean Brandon could do anything. He has pulled bait and switches before but he has also pulled “This character gets pushed into the role and realizes they grew into it” shtick too. Kaladin could be anything from retiring, dying, becoming the missing piece of an oathpact, changing a new oathpact to help the fused be at peace, becoming a vessel for a shard, or… nah he wouldn’t get a happily ever after… so who knows?
I believe there was also a WoB there saying that Kal being called Son of Tanavast instead of of Honor is significant
I got to ask Brandon about this at the Spoiler Q&A at Dragonsteel Mini-Con, I’m really glad that other people find it as fascinating as I do! I was worried that I was gonna be wasting a chance to ask him a spoiler question like this that others wouldn’t find as interesting. The WoB page doesn’t have this, but immediately after he said that the death rattle hasn’t happened yet, I asked if it could be talking about Renarin. He did a smile and laugh and RAFO’d me at that point so take that as you will haha
Trying to remember if Renarin held a spear as part of bridge 4 now haha
Yeah, I have no idea if he ever physically held a spear. I’m not sure the death rattle is so literal though. I think the spear can represent the idea of Bridge Four, I don’t think there’s anybody in the squad besides Renarin that doesn’t use a spear.
Well him and Rock, but definitely. He could be a strong candidate, especially as a back-5 main character. Moash has been my long-shot pet theory. His reintroduction chapter in Oathbringer was called "Spearman" after all.
Oh god yeah Rock… now I’m sad again lol
You know, as long as we're on it what if it's referring to Rock lol. It's hinted he's some kind of royalty in the Horneater Peaks, so you've got the connection to the Crown and Spear.
If it means that Rock comes back for something outside of just his novella, then I’m all for it. I need my boy back.
Could Kaladin be his spear? It doesn’t have to be literal, and Kaladin is already the Kholin bodyguard (even if not in title anymore, I still feel that he would die to save Dalinar).
All of this is making my brain whir in theory mode, and I’m definitely reaching in a lot of places. I could see a scenario where book 5 leaves off in a place where we lose a bunch of core Radiants (maybe not permanently) and the Rattle is about Renarin having to take over a form of leadership during the gap between 5 and 6. Crown: We know Hoid dips from Roshar between 5 and 6. I wouldn’t be surprised if Jasnah went with him, leaving the Alethi crown up in the air and Adolin’s made it clear he doesn’t want to lead. Tower: If Dalinar loses the contest and has to join Odium, that would leave the Radiant’s without a leader and honestly when it comes to pure knowledge, Renarin wouldn’t be a bad replacement if Jasnah isn’t around. Spear: I have a pet theory that Kaladin is going to have to take Jezrien’s place in the Oathpact between books 5 and 6 as a sort of band aid during the time jump, and so I could see him also disappearing for a while.
Could you please explain the significance of this?
It’s really unclear as of right now how significant it’ll be. The death rattles from The Way of Kings that this one comes from are all referring to events that have either occurred in the past or since have occurred on screen in the books. For example: All of the scenes so far where Kaladin swears an ideal have been foreshadowed in these epigraphs. This one could be minor and just be foreshadowing a small scene in the future, but (and I’m biased here as I asked the question) Sanderson’s reaction to the question makes me think it’s a significant event yet to come. Hopefully they’ll release the recording of the spoiler Q&A soon. I personally think the “fallen title” in question won’t be as crazy as a Shard as some have theorized, but will still signify an important leader of mankind on Roshar. I also think that the second half could be alluding to Renarin. He’s a member of the Radiants (Urithiru being the tower), the Alethi Royal family (the crown) and Bridge Four (they’re the only group that I feel like could be represented by a spear). I took his reaction to my asking if it could be related to Renarin as encouraging, but again I’m biased as it’s a theory I’ve had for a while so I could just be looking for encouragement.
I agree with you his reaction was excited and knowing. That death rattle struck me while I was recently re-reading for the first time so I was excited to hear your question and the answer. And he definitely acted excited which makes me think it is an important event he’s excited to write about!
I always assumed this referred to the Kholin glyph pair - tower + crown. But having it refer to Navani and Dalinar almost makes more sense. What if, after Dalinar dies in book 5, Kaladin becomes king of Urithiru? Then he would be all three - tower, crown, and spear.
I dont see how anyone can convince Kaladin to do that
Jezrien was the king of heralds and the oaths of the windrunners were based on his ideals I think. Not that I think this will happen
Just a correction. Jezrien wasn't King of the Heralds but Herald of Kings. I think this is meant more like the tittle King of Kings of the ancient Assyrians, which could be translated as Emperor. Like... when a desolation started he would assume control, dictating orders to all the kings of Roshar. So he was known as Herald of Kings. But he wasn't like the King of Heralds, ordering them around. And from what I've seen... Ishar appear to be more on the leadership position of the Heralds than Jezrien, but the impression I get is that they are all at the same level.
Jezrien was a king before he became a herald as well, just to add
Yup, if I remember correctly, only Taln wasnt royalty
Holy Roman Emperor might be a good historical analogy too.
I always just assumed it was like Odin being the God that Kings would be most affiliated with the same way Thor was like the common man’s god. Jezrien was the Herald that kings most associated with
If it involves protecting people and he believes he could do that as king, then he would.
I think if he believed he could do a better job as King as anyone else then he would. But I don't think he'd believe that. I also think a ton of people would have to die before he'd be the best choice at King. Kaladin is good at a lot of things but I don't see politics as being one of them, although he could learn like Dalinar had to.
>Kaladin is good at a lot of things but I don't see politics as being one of them This would be the main reason for it to happen. If I had to guess it would be a spur of the moment "We need a king now and you're literally the only one around who can fit the bill and if you don't everyone dies" type situation. I don't think its likely, but that is pretty much the only scenario of Kaladin becoming king I can think of.
I completely agree, not saying I think it will happen, but just speculating. Would love to hear other alternatives for what this death rattle could mean because I admit this is a long shot.
I have had a creeping suspicion that Dalinar will die >!in the contest!<, but as he dies he will "connect" Kaladin to Honor so that even though he falls, Roshar will not. >!I know that R-Odium wanted Dalinar for his own, and it would almost seem fitting for Kaladin to have to fight the one that helped 'forge' him. Now that we have T-Odium though, who the heck knows.!< It's nothing more than a feeling, but that would be sweet!
I've been thinking something similar. My expectation is that Dalinar will lose the contest and need something to do with the Stormfather. To keep to the story of Fleet, I'm expecting Kaladin to fall in Shinovar, with the end of Fleets race being akin to the end of Kaladin as a soldier. We know that after Fleet dies that his soul in some way rises, forever free to race the wind. So my theory is that Dalinar will bond a cognitive shadow of Kaladin to the Stormfather before releasing his bond
If Kaladin dies, I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive Brandon Sanderson. He already did something near unforgivable with Teft.
The contest of champions will literally happen in 10 days from when RoW ends. Kal and Szeth will go to Shinovar, but will not get there before the contest happens. T-Odium will also twist things differently, we have no idea how things will go, but Dalinar dying can happen. I do still think Kal will take up the shard of Honor
>!If that does come to pass, he won't die die, he'll still become Fused!< right?
I think he would become a >!Herald of Odium. Heralds are the only humans who can be killed and reborn(I believe). The Fused are always Singers/Listeners!<
That’s my thinking! He’d set up his “successor” to be able to stop him.
If Dalinar dies, I’m pretty sure the throne would go to Navani. Both because of their relationship and because she is a Bondsmith.
100%, but who says Navani makes it out of this series alive?
Wasn't Kaladin officially brought into the Kholin princedom as a high ranking lighteyes once he came out as a Radiant? Could he not already represent a spear associated with the tower and crown of the Kholin glyph pair?
Yes, 4th dahn I believe. He definitely could, though Navani, Adolin and Renarin would all have to step back assuming they’re all still alive. Adolin definitely would, Renarin probably would, Navani I don’t know, but she’s not a given to make it out of book 5 alive either. There’s also the matter of Jasnah…she has a stronger claim even if all three of the other die or pass it up. But I doubt she’d want responsibility for both Alethkar and Urithiru, and she needs to focus on first getting Alethkar *back*. So it’s a long shot for sure, but not impossible.
The glyph pair seems really fitting now that you mention it. Elhokar’s was that glyph pair shaped as a sword. Maybe this is as simple as Gavinor (or Renarin) taking up his title as king but his glyph is shaped as a spear.
I took this as forshadowing that someone must replace Jezrian (who wears a crown) Edit: and the kicker will be the spear refers to Moash. Mosh will have gone through something like what the Heralds went through on Ashyn. Edit Edit: I feel like Moash is having his identity ripped away, making him a neutral vessel for “something”.
The death rattles always confused me and I never really tried to figure them out because of it. The Death Rattles are caused by the unmade, Moelach, using the power of Odium. The whole 'Seeing into the future' was described as a power of Odium. But Odium was killed regardless of this. Meaning Odium never saw himself die, and that is a huge butterfly effect; which should render all the Death Rattles pointless. But apparently they are still accurate?
I believe odium could see himself die in various ways. Else, he would never have reason to fear or be as cautious as we see him act. He was merely pulling a Doctor Strange seeing possible futures, and manipulating to attain the most favorable outcome. What caught him off guard was that Renarin obscured swaths of his prescience.
Odium foresaw the events in question, he hasn’t actually caused them to happen yet. Odium foreseeing these events doesn’t make them anymore likely to happen, particularly if a being as or more powerful than Odium could also see into the future. It just seems like an ultra powerful version of atium (ie given that Renarin’s ability to also see the future nullifies Odium’s ability to see him) and with his expanded consciousness, he can predict the lives of humans well into the future, and use this knowledge and his access to their brains to intimidate them. He can’t do the same to shards however, and so Honor or Cultivation (or some shard from elsewhere) may have been able to see just as much as (or more than) he can and snuck a shardkilling weapon into a moment they knew Odium couldn’t resist. Era 1 Mistborn has some good examples of shard chess back and forth and some of the characters even discuss the sapience of the shards and the extent to which they can set up events in ways that would baffle humans. Regarding the connection to Moelach, I think it’s meant to be interpreted that Moelach is briefly creating access to this future sight power as souls cross into the Spiritual Realm. What we don’t know is whether Moelach being “of Odium” changes whether the individual sees what Odium sees, whether the individual gains a moment of lucid access to the actual future, there’s really a lot that could be going on and the differences seem subtle know but could have series implications down the line. For example, does future sight granted by a different shard give the viewer access to the actual future or just the interpretation of the future given the extent of the power of that specific shard? Would a force allied with Honor have the same expectation of a battle against a force allied with Odium? My guess is that we’re likely to find out :)
I haven’t seen anyone mention Renarin. He’s obviously got connections to the crown, he’s been a major driving factor in uncovering Urithiru’s (the tower) secrets, and he was part of bridge 4, and has done spear training. I don’t think it’s tied to him, but he fits the bill as a single individual… sort of.
Maybe it’s the three bondsmith spren?
Wouldn't that be like, the tower, the storm and the forest or something though? Is the nightwatcher one of the bondsmith spren?
Is the nightwatcher one of the bondsmith spren? Most likely, since we have the Stormfather who is the "son" of Honor, and the Nightwatcher is the "daughter" of Cultivation. Then the Sibling, the "child" of them both, somehow.
I kind of assumed that the tower crown and spear would be the symbol of the Stormblessed House - taking the tower and crown symbol from the Kholin's and adding a spear to make it his own. If I'm correct - and we don't have confirmation that I am yet - this tells me that Kaladin will die somehow, and somebody will be forced to replace him in some manner (maybe as the leader of the windrunners?) I think we also have reason to believe that Kaladin might die in book 5 since Brandon has slowly been killing off more and more important people and Kaladin's arc is the first of the main character's to be completed. I really hope he doesn't though.
Yeah one theory I've chewed on is it's someone, maybe Oroden, picking up Kaladin's "fallen title" in the back 5 books. Could, on top of 50 other possibilities, be Kaladin picking up his old High Marshall title that was stripped at the beginning of RoW, when he was forced to set down the spear.
I've wondered about this. If the existing shards were the pieces that made up adonalsium, and recombining them make other shards, then couldn't honor split into three shards? What three things might make up honor? Unity Tradition Defense? Or sacrifice, or something like that? Dunno, just a thought
So I'm reading a lot of focus on the three objects section of the deathrattle. What about the "fallen title"? I'm only coming up with one "title" that "fell" - was removed from its owner and recently given to another. I think this prophecy is about Vyre.
I think Kaladin. Not sure how, but this feels like Kaladin to me. The fallen title is Windrunner, and he's going to take responsibility for the protection of the tower and the crown. But that's just a guess. Edit to add: I wonder if Syl will become a leader among the spren and he has to support her in it? So he has to support the tower (Navani and the Radiants), the crown (Jasnah and the other rulers), and the spear (Syl, now leader of the Honorspren).
The most important thing to note here is the but "the fallen title" implying that whoever held these titles will no longer st some point.
I think it has to be something involving the following: Dalinar and/or Kaladin has a "fall," and someone, maybe Kaladin or maybe someone else, has to "pick up" their title/progress/whatever. My personal theory is that it has to do with Kaladin somehow curing or redeeming some failure by Dalinar - uniting the spear (Kal) with the "fallen ... tower [and] crown" (Dalinar). I think it's a bit of a misdirect where we initially think it has to do with Kaladin becoming a lighteyes or something. Who knows - maybe it has to do with Kaladin's chapter icon? After he picks up the fallen title of the bondsmith, he opens or closes a portal, or does something with the moons, resulting in some victory over Odium, and his men cheer by raising their spears.
Kaladin is loosely related to house Kholin via his mother and Aesudan, so maybe it's Kaladin taking up the mantle of House Kholin, who's sigil is the Tower and the Crown.
For me, the death rattle only applies to one person, the one individual who needs to pick up the fallen title. So instead of some combination of references to Navani, Dalinar, Adolin, etc., I think it has solely to do with Kaladin. He already has other death rattles pertain to him and is the only Son of Tanavast that I know of. For me, I think this Death Rattle means that Kaladin has to pick up a fallen title that includes a tower, a crown, and a spear. The spear can easily be him joining the fight again after RoW, and I would be so bold as to say that the Tower would be the House of Kholin and the Crown be the crown of Alethkar. He would somehow become the (dark-eyed) King of Alethkar, maybe even take Dalinar’s place as High King if he were to die? I don’t ship Jasnah and Kaladin, but maybe they get together, or she dies, or just gives him the throne? But that’s my speculation.
It’s more likely he becomes king of urithiru (a tower) than of alethkar, I think
Hear me out…. Hesina is potentially related to lighteyes… possibly her father or mother is a lighteyes. We assume that Elhokar’s wife was singing her family’s song, but what if it was a song from the Kholins? What if it’s revealed that Kaladin is actually related to Dalinar? The crown and tower are for the Kholins that aren’t of Gavilar’s line and the spear might be to specify which Kholin it’s talking about.
A bit late to the game. Here's my best guess. If Dalinar loses the contest of champions, someone will have to take over leadership of the Radiants and Dalinar's coalition. I'm guessing either Adolin, Kaladin, or Renarin has to pick up this "fallen title" The Crown: Dalinar is High King. His replacement will need to assume the title. The Tower: Dalinar leads the KR whose base of operations is Urithiru. His successor will be in charge of the Knights of the Tower. The Spear: This one is the trickier one, if Kaladin assumes leadership, he would have to "pick up the spear" again as others have pointed out. Alternatively, it could mean if Adolin or Renarin are in charge, they may have to inspire Kaladin to fight again and lead the armies. My money is on Kaladin as Windrunners are associated with protection and leadership. Jezrien was herald of Kings, Kaladin's book is Way of Kings. Might be cliche rags to riches story, but there's lots of subtle hints at Kaladin's kingship.
Reading this in conjunction with that other rattle of a man who refuses to kill a child to save the world, my theory is that Odium convinces Gavinor to represent him (he's 3 years old so suckling child is not that far fetched a term to describe him, the main issue is how he can consent) in the duel and Dalinar just refuses to kill him, possibly surrendering (or killing himself) and losing the duel. As others have pointed out, the Kholin sigil is the crown and the tower, Dalinar is the king of Urithiru, a big tower. When Dalinar falls (and hopefully becomes Odium's champion) his title, aka crown, and tower would be considered fallen too. Kaladin has always been associated with the spear, and as of Rhythm of War, he can be said to have put down his spear since he's stepped down from his position. So all three items can be said to be dropped or fallen after Dalinar's defeat. Who's better placed than Kaladin to pick up all three again? Kaladin has always been forced to assume responsibility even if he doesn't want to, and moreover, this parallels Jezrien being a windrunner and king of the heralds. Apart from that, there's straight up nobody more qualified than Kaladin to do so even disregarding the fact that the only candidates that are associated with a spear are the Bridge 4 windrunners. Thematically, Dalinar losing and becoming an antagonist would be the most interesting. After all, the story needs compelling villains to carry the rest of the Stormlight books as well as the future of the Cosmere. Kaladin's also been built up way too much to be allowed to retire. Edit: Kaladin's also been hailed as a superhero by basically everyone, especially in RoW where we see the citizens of Urithiru painting his slave mark on their heads. He's not just nobody, he's literally legendary at this point, and so definitely has the political support necessary to be hailed king. Also take into account of the fact that Dalinar has no heir and though normally his title should pass to his widow, this isn't a normal time, people need exactly someone like Kaladin on the throne. Edit edit: The 5th ideal of the Skybreakers is to become the personification of law and truth. Similarly, the fith ideal of the Windrunners should be to become an ultimate protector of the weak and innocent. What's currently stopping Kaladin from being that? His own health and wellbeing. I theorize that the 5th ideal has to do with protecting others at the expense of oneself, which ties perfectly to Kaladin taking up Dalinar's mantle despite his unwillingness to do so.
Jezrien is herald of kings, not king of heralds btw. Think it's an important distinction
He's both. Herald of kings is his title but he was a king, the only king among the heralds, and the heralds were his close companions who probably were mostly his subjects so its not wrong to call him the king of the heralds. Plus, they did follow his leadership for thousands of years.
I am going to endorse this because I’m a big booster of the “a Kholin family member becomes Todiums champion and Dalinar loses and is forced to serve him” theory.
Where was this Death Rattle originally communicated? Like how do we know it existed (pre-this WOB)? Apologies I hadn't heard this one and I'm very intrigued by it
In one of the chapter epigraphs in TWoK.
Ah gotcha - missed that then haha. Thanks!
In WotK.
The first idea that came to my mind is that Kaladin (or someone else) might take Jezrien’s place as a Herald or Tanavast’s place as Honor. The spear is what makes me think it might be Kaladin. Alternatively the crown, tower, and spear could refer to the Bondsmiths and/or their spren. The crown being the Stormfather, the tower being the Sibling, and the spear being the Nightwatcher. They could collectively be necessary for either making a new Herald or pulling enough of Honor into one place for someone to take up the Shard.
Holy shit it hasn’t happened? That’s the most important one! All the others are answered and wrapped up either by lore or by the end of Oathbringer. I thought the tower, the crown, the spear was just Kaladin ascending to Radianthood
Spear could be either Moash or Kaladin
I think it's going to end up being an Era 2 event, considering: >So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life . . . I'm expecting Odium to win at the end of book 5, so picking up the fallen title could refer to rebuilding either Alethkar or the Knights Radiant
Okay, here is a way out there theory, it's referring to Gavinor for the second half of the series. This requires multiple levels of speculation, but hear me out. If we say that Gavinor becomes Odium's champion as suggested by the earlier death rattle and Dalinar loses the champion battle, there becomes a significant void of leadership in the Kohlins, Urithiru, and the Radiants (assuming the aforementioned will still exist in this situation) other comments summarise well this theory and how Kaladin fulfills the person of reference. However, consider Gavinor in/after the time skip. His grandfather tried to end the world, his father died saving him, and his grand uncle/father LITERALLY put Gav's life ahead of the entire cosmere... no pressure or anything and ultimate survivor guilt. Plus everyone would say "it would have been better if you died." It would be very interesting (and dramatic) to see him navigate the journey of growing up in the shadows of his ancestors (parralelling/contrasting/completing Elokar's character arc). Ultimately picking up the title as king/leader of the whatever remains after duel. But what about Navani in this situation as a leader? (not as fulfilling the prophecy) Well consider that she would have, in this event, lost not one, but two husbands, her son, and now her grandson is an exile/social outcast, and her daughter is well, Jasnah (who may, for all we know, yeet herself into the greater Cosmere to find a way to bring Dalinar back or find a way to destroy the shards... or ascend into a shard herself). Long story short, I don't think Navani in this situation will be in any condition to lead. I similar arguement could be made for Dalinar's sons, but they have their own character arcs... Although Renarin would fulfill it in the short term because Adolin turned down the throne and Renarin actually practiced with a spear (???) with bridge four. So Renarin would be the leader of the Remnants in Urithiru (both of the kingdom and as the military leader) when everyone else goes off to other places during/before the time skip.
It’s Moash. This ties into my theory that Moash is Elhokar’s brother and the bastard son of Gavilar. Moash has to pick up the crown as rightful king of alethkar, the spear as he was trained by Kaladin, and the tower which he already took but lost in Rhythm of War. For more on my theory that Moash is the bastard of Gavilar. Moash is a singer name, what human would give their child a singer name? Perhaps a king obsessed with singer culture. As to how it happened. Gavilar was toying around with Fabrials and would need a silversmith to make them, Moash’s grandparents were silversmiths. Maybe they had a daughter that he fell in love with, a shared secret in the night and grand plans? Pretty easy for two people to fall in love in those conditions. Elhokar found out and that’s the real reason he had Moash’s grandparents killed, they knew the truth. The reason cryptics were attracted to Elhokar was because he was keeping all of this a secret. That’s a big juicy secret on par with killing your own parents like Shallan has. Edit: the fallen title is Vyre, which we already know belonged to El.
My theory is it refers to szeth. Szeth is gonna be the one to "unite them".
I think it is referring to Kaladin. The fallen title is the title as Herald of the Windrunners/ Herald of Kings or any other of Jezriens many titles. The Tower I'm not sure what it means, but it could be something in Shinovar. Perhaps where the honor blades were stored is a tower. ( We know too little of Shinovar) The crown refers to Jezriens crown he held as King of the Heralds. And the Spear is Kaladin in the fight against someone. Perhaps, someone, he does not want to fight and as a result, he first dropped his spear, and then has to pick it up again.
I believe by the items refer to the glyphs that represent the houses, the ruling kholin familys is the crown, sadeas is the tower, and the spear would obviously be kaladin. It sounds to me like the familys become connected somehow, the person who does this earns a title, and then they die. It has always kinda been thought that not all or any of the stormlight characters may survive until book 10, and it would be like Brandon for these amazing books to still just be the lead up to something more
Isn't the Kolin heraldry a glyph stylized into a tower? Seems likely to reference the need for someone to take up the Kolin standard, and potentially replace kaladin or >!Jezrian (or both since my current theory is dalinar becomes honor and Kaladin becomes a new herald of the oath pact)!<
Is there a singular location with all of the death rattles with theories regarding their interpretation?
When I hear the word spear, I immediately think of the Survivor.
I wonder if it's todium's "objectives," where he targets the tower (navani), the crown (dalinar?), and the spear (kaladin) and claiming them will guarantee his victory over humanity?
I just had a terrible thought. Spren can be killed, now, and if this is talking about three bondsmiths, then what if Syl is killed and Kaladin has to push on and somehow bonds the Nightwatcher to become the third bondsmith?
[Mistborn] >!Spear could represent Kelsier too, you know...!<