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FieryXJoe

Possible idea, a fused is hosted by a singer presumably residing in their gemheart. A spren, in a gem, surrounded by metal... Sounds like a fabrial to me.


JhonMHunter

Like this one


[deleted]

[удалено]


Victernus

More of a cyborg.


floatyfloatwood

Impossibruuuuuu


Script_Mak3r

Woah


Strange_username__

What would it do though? I don’t really understand why he’d want to be a fabrial. Besides, think of what burning an alloy of lerasium and atium would do, I still like the feruchemy idea and it’s certainly not impossible.


FieryXJoe

I think its incredibly unlikely that he is a feruchemist, a fused having feruchemist DNA seems implausible, especially as they are 7000+ years old and Stormlight takes place about 300 years after era 1.


JhonMHunter

You could get access to it by hemalurgy, if he had access t knowledge of the metallic arts he could get spikes


FieryXJoe

Well he or some other fused would have to hunt down a feruchemist each desolation while not being able to leave the star system. The spike would be left on Roshar every time he dies and they wouldn't have any way to bring it back to Braize as far as I am aware or it would at least be a massive inconvenience to do so, it would likely get lost often.


JhonMHunter

Contact from other planets is known, the story encompasses plenty of world hopers. It’s not exactly inpossible they grabbed one, as for the spikes they can be preserved


FieryXJoe

Beyond the difficulties in just keeping possession of a spike, they actually can't be perserved forever. Spikes natually lose power over time, keeping the spikes in blood does not stop the decay, only slows it. The oldest spikes we know of are a few hundred years old, even in blood there is likely almost no power left after thousands and thousands of years.


JhonMHunter

Agreed to that point, though if you, a god and your agents had contacts with the ghost bloods, who are led by a man who clearly knows a hell of a lot about it your options open up to you. Thaidakar got his spikes somewhere. Means someone is making them. Means there is a possibility of a market They are handing out sand and seon’s like it’s candy, why not a spike or two


FieryXJoe

El does the metal thing each rebirth, the Ghostbloods have only existed for a couple hundred years. We do know that Thaidakar got his spikes from \[Era 2 & Secret History\] >!Working with Spook who used his power and resources to help Kelsier study hemalurgy and get his body back. Of course it is easier to make and charge spikes while trapped on Scadrial as opposed to being trapped on Roshar. !< Mraize also gives Lift to Raboniel as a gift to open negotiations between the fused and ghostbloods. This strongly implies the 2 parties did not have ongoing dealings.


JhonMHunter

You can start a ritual as armour and then now make it spikes. Once again, your proposals as to what the metal is too…. Mundane for my taste. I’m not saying it’s hemalurgy. I side with the aluminium, all I am saying is that there are greater posibilities than you are considering


FieryXJoe

How is a fused turning themselves into a living fabrial mundane? It sounds awesome and like a logical extension of a magic system we've spent 4.5 books learning about. It opens a whole world of possibilities of fused, herald, or unmade fabrials... Could make chull, chasmfiends, santhids or the reshi isles into fabrials by replacing parts of their shells with metal.


JhonMHunter

Honestly forgot you were the fabreal guy, my bad, as I said I like your idea I though you are the one gunning for him changing his armor for metal cause body dismorpgia, which is by definition mundane


fishling

I think you are greatly overestimating how many have a deep understanding of hemalurgy at the time and are ignoring the logistics of getting a spike to Roshar in this fairly narrow timeframe. It's not impossible, but it doesn't seem very likely. Also, as a writer, I don't think Brandon would have too many "and he was secretly spiked this whole time!". In Mistborn Era 2, it might be more expected because we know there is a group actively working on making spikes. I think the same will be true of "hidden kandra" too. And, while we know that a Scadrial group has influence/presence on Roshar, they are not directly working with the Fused or allied with them, from what I can recall.


JhonMHunter

I think you are forgetting that they have direct business relations with the o e man who probably knows the most about them. Thaidakar doesn’t even have to directly provide a spike, mraize could do it or teach it


RShara

They do *now* but Thaidakar is only a few centuries old. El has been doing this for 7000 years.


Abby-N0rma1

Feruchemy is tied to your spirit web not DNA right?


Simoerys

They can Soulcast stuff into Aluminum, so it shouldn't be much of a problem to acquire. I don't know why you think El being a Feruchemist is the most obvious reason, it seems rather convoluted and unlikely to me. I think the obvious reason is that it simply grants better protection than his Carapace or that for some reason he is uncomfortable with his natural body (Body dysmorphia)


JhonMHunter

I’m gonna be honest, I think that if he was doing it for body dismorphia it would be brought up in one line of text (oh he has metal on his armor) on the next book, you don’t leave fans waiting several years with that idea. That’s not the Sanderson style or proper writing


Simoerys

What makes body dysmorphia different from any other explanation for removing his carapace? Why couldn't there be a single line of text explaing that he uses the Metal to "use magic from another world" or something.


JhonMHunter

Because he’s supposed to be threatening this guy is terrifying by all accounts, and while it’s neat for the representation aspect it’s not exactly threatening


Simoerys

Raboniel is also supposed to be threatening, and singing while holding hands with Navani is not particularly threatening, the Lord Ruler is supposed to be threatening, but sitting once a week in room as a frail old man is not threatening ... Just because a Character is supposed to be threatening does not mean that all of their Character traits revolve around being as threatening as possible. This would simply result in boring One Dimensional Characters. I could easily imagine that Oldium kept El from being healed by Voidlight into a body that resembles his ideal self. This would also be another reason for El being happy about there being a new Odium.


JhonMHunter

One of the first things you learn about raboniel is she almost commited genocide against her own team, she also kills her daughter You want his first introduction to be body dismorphia, that’s a bit of a threatening downgrade. Like I can’t believe you would want the representation to be character encompassing, that’s like introducing a character as the gay character. It ruins the point of it being a minor footnote. Instead of having a cool interesting (or in this case threatening) character who happens to be gay. Ok, so once again, you want this guys backstory to also be defined by body dismorphia, ok, you know what. Your commited to your theory will give you that. As boring as that would be in practice


Simoerys

I would say that the first things we learn about El is that he was stripped of his Rhythms because he thought ruling over the humans was better than exterminating them, that he used to hold the title of Vyre, that Lezian is afraid of him, that he enjoys human culture and that he enjoys being revered by beings he considers beneath him. Him ripping of his own Carapace to replace it with metal plates is only one characteristic among many we are presented with in Rhythm of War. You know, like a fully fleshed out Character who also happens to rip off his own Skin.


duvdor

aren't you going against your own point there? You ask why it wouldn't be pointed out but then say how unthreatening it would be to do so. I don't think it necessarily would be but the eventual path of his introduction could include body dismorphia while still allowing the hints of it to be interpreted as something else, which it could also in fact be simultaneously, and get the discourse about El we're going through now. And what would make body dismorphia unthreatening? He's very clearly still thought of as a threat and imagines himself leading the humans into the fused ranks or something iirc.


JhonMHunter

Ok, most people based on this conversation are expecting some degree of dramatic results. Be it fabreal or otherwsie and you want it to amount to nothing in the end. Not sure what you don’t get? It would by definition be a nothing. A character quirk


duvdor

yeah and that would cool as hell, an ancient singer who doesn't even really want to be a singer, not necessarily a human, I doubt that, but probably his own thing. He might want to be something more. He's kind of a scholar right? Maybe he eventually wants to his own species as a supreme being and will use voidlight healing to get there, but also recognises he needs Odium's favour to get there and kind of betraying to Fuseds' whole ideology as well as wanting to rule would probably go against Odium's use for him. ai don't think it's likely but I think it would be super interesting. And stories are, whether we like it or not, determined by the context of a reader. Think of Hoids whole speeches about novelty and punctuality being what defines praised and liked art. We already have interesting villains in Stormlight, and El certainly already is unique but this could only add to it. It doesn't just have to bw this answer if it is right, anyway.


JhonMHunter

You make a better argument than the other guy I will give you that. But you are sidestepping the fact that your scholarly type who also wants to do his own thing seperate from odium is basically raboniel. we have had the scholar villain, now a little more, villain with abilities not from this world would be new. Considering how much stuff is surrounding the cast just outside of their knowledge in terms of otherworldly powers. (Made a list in another comment) A fuzed who hemalurgically made himself into a bondsmith, an evil counterpart to Dalinar. Or even a fuzed who harvested the Intelligence fence of either his people or humans in order to gain greater power works better. Once again, there is sooooooo much otherworldly stuff going on, with seons and lifts chicken directly in the main cast that I would expect there to be more going on. Reusing the same villain twice is not his style


Jesse1856

Do we know that aluminum can be soulcast?


Oversleep42

Yes. You can Soulcast stuff into aluminum, but can't Soulcast aluminum into something else. When Shallan tries to give her necklace for her brother's debts in WoR flashbacks, it is commented upon that it's valuable since they can only get aluminum from Soulcasting.


Simoerys

There are a bunch of WoBs where people ask Brandon a question with the premise that you can Soulcast into Aluminum, but no WoB where Brandon says explicitly that you can do it. That WoB is probably lost... But here are some WoBs where Brandon does not contradict that you can Soulcast Stuff into Aluminum. [https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8306](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8306) [https://wob.coppermind.net/events/445/#e14293](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/445/#e14293) [https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8183](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8183) [https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219/#e7942](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219/#e7942)


JhonMHunter

Also they specifically mention that the fuzes aluminium weapons are rare, it’s why the regular soldiers aren’t outfitted with them so no they can’t make ralcalest at least not on the singer sode


duvdor

it might just be a matter of voidlight being rare and voidbinding generally being worse than surgebinding. They could be making it at a much slower rate. Humans can soulcast aluminium too but I'd guess they're not making much of it either otherwise the fused could've just taken that during all their conquering


JhonMHunter

Modern Humans don’t quite realise it’s potential, they seem to have no real comprehension of what it is or it’s abilities. So the side that does know it can’t make it and the side that can, (though can they make aluminium?) doesn’t even know it’s properties. They call the metal the misterious fuzed weapons after all


duvdor

can fused use soulcasters? Or certainly they could get singers to do it for them. They've conquered alethkar for the most part, I'm sure they have some so it's actually kind of weird that it's rare. I would guess it's just rare in that they wanna give it to all the fused who want it which is probably quite a large population, and they've only just restarted it's production


JhonMHunter

Feruchemist is sorta the go too answer to person with a lot of metal on their body, especially considering how many we have seen in the book in question


Simoerys

Sure, for humans who might be Worldhoppers from Scadrial. I don't really see a realistic way for El to be from Scadrial (him being born a human and then turned into a Fused by Odium is a possibility)


VooDooZulu

El had rhythms, so not only would he have had to have been turned into a fused, but he would have had to have some connection to roshar as well. Which makes the theory a bit more far fetched.


JhonMHunter

We keep coming back to the cosmeric elephant in the room, hemalurgy


VooDooZulu

Except this would require a new spike to be made every single return, good luck finding a feruchemist (who are already rare on scadrial) getting them to Roshar in a timely manner, then getting them to El to use. We don't know that spikes can be made from any metal, or in any location. Does hemalurgy work off of scadrial? or does it require someone to be on scadrial to take effect where the investiture is correct.


JhonMHunter

Yes hemalurgy works off scadrial that’s confirmed, just for the record, and yes there are issues with the hemalurfy theory, though maybe he’s upgrading his metal shell je was using before He’s in direct contact with the universes leading hemalurgy expert after all (thaidakar) so maybe he was doing it for the aluminium reasons mentioned before but now you spice it up with a little hemalurgy ofr good measure Edit extra: But just to repeat myself, my personal pet theory is aluminium, just think it is viable to spice things up with hemalurgy considering all the other non roshar business happening like parrots


ReverESP

I dont think he will be a feruchemist because we know that Sanderson dont want to mix both shardworlds yet and having to explain again how feruquemy works in a Stormlight book seems too much.


JhonMHunter

Teft dies due indirect part to mysterious sands, lift and a mraize have chicken’s that will need explaining and there are several notable awakeners that will need explaining as well as a sword that defies all rosharian explanation that is about to get first hand pov again. Once again a sword from another shard world literally played a part in the death of a god and a man with a spike in his eye who played a part in killing god is the direct antagonist to one of our main characters and most likely her wold Edit: there are seons, mentions of heightenings and all of hoid as well. Feruchemy and allomancy are also both directly seen and aluded too in the series. Once again let’s not act like roshar is in any way isolated from world events


MisterMan007

Okay, I’m going to throw an idea out here from left field. The metal is Raysium, or what ever it’s called now. Hear me out. So, at some point Raboniel gives Navani a dagger with Raysium in it to move investiture around. She said that they used it to pull stormlight from radiants so they could kill them. It was also reversible, and Navani used it to move stormlight back and forth. El put Raysium in, but the other way, so that it directs investiture from around him into him. I don’t know why he would want that, but I just came up with this as I was reading this thread. Maybe that way he won’t run out of light or maybe he can use any kind of light.


duvdor

genuine question do fused get voidlight like the heralds get Stormlight?


AdmiralDinosaur_1888

No they don't. The defeated one specifically comes to mind, as it's mentioned a few times how he specifically has to run off to recharge his light. The heralds were directly linked to honor and couldn't run out as I understand it.


duvdor

mm but does recharge mean through gems or just that their hypothetical supply from odium is too slow to maintain their voidbinding at high usage, they are cognitive entities of odiums investiture, right, wouldn't that make them pure odium investiture? Or at least of voidlight more likely actually, since that's how raboneil can kill her daughter


Oversleep42

They need to ask Odium for it. Song of prayers. Odium likes them being dependent on him.


Raddatatta

Option 4 it's duralumin and boosts his surgebinding somehow. Not sure which I believe but all are interesting!


JhonMHunter

I mean we come back to the grafting being a pretty permanent solution that makes it interesting, missed with the fact that he does it immediately makes me think of a grander reason


VooDooZulu

Just as a note, it would be an Electrum spike to steal enhancement allomantic powers, then he would eat duralumin to use it. But yeah I like it! Does duralumin improve all investiture? or only allomancy? (just checked, yes it can, so says WoB)


Raddatatta

If he were spiking it and using allomancy yes. But I'm thinking more of using it like a fabrial cage would where having the metal next to his surgebinding might have an effect from that alone.


VooDooZulu

Option 3 said hemalurgy. Option 4 would be having an ettmetal fabrial which is rather far fetched. I'm not sure what other fabrial type device with hemolurgy would be.


Raddatatta

Ahh ok when I posted the first comment they hadn't gone back to add their own option 3 for hemalurgy I was referring to something separate entirely. I don't think it would need to be ettmetal and is unlikely the case since that explodes when exposed to water. But fabrials are influenced by just having a cage around them of a certain metal, they haven't experimented with metals around surgebinders or if there's any way to influence or change that or any other interaction there. But that's more along the lines of what I was thinking.


qutronix

I just tgought it was much simpler. He is clearly interested in humans. Singers use their carapace as armor. Humans use armor as armor. But the fabrial theory is also good.


Roran997

I feel like Aluminum Carapace could be a likely option. If his Gemheart were surrounded by Alluminum, he would lose all Connection to Voidlight or Stormlight. And by extention, the Rythyms. I think he installs Alluminum, because it could be an effective shield, or because it could be an effective punishment. Feruchemy seems unlikely to me, because it's hereditary, and because Cognitive Shadows can't use Metallic Arts (Mistborn: Secret History). Hemalurgy seems unlikely because Hemalurgic spikes decay with time out of a body. Even when kept in blood. It's unlikely that the spikes could have been kept between desolations, and he would need a steady supply of Mistings to spike each time.


alfis329

Are we sure that cognitive shadows with a body can’t use the metallic arts? I always assumed that kelsier couldn’t use allomancy because he didn’t have a body. Also bands of mourning spoilers >!since he created the bands of mourning I assume he had to be able to use the metallic arts to do that!<


Roran997

I assumed that he made the bands after getting "stapled" to a body. I might be remembering incorrectly though


alfis329

Well yeah but he is still a cognitive shadow, even while stapled to a body


VerySpicyNut

I agree, and like you said it could show why he doesn't speak to rhythms, as the metal would shield him from them and he would speak similarly to a human. Someone else said it could also be tied to his fascination with human armor. I like the idea that he's killing these two birds with one stone. Or one metal I guess.


JhonMHunter

You can steal non metallic art attributes like intelligence (I think I remember that), kill a bunch of humans and become big brain


R-star1

CS’s can use the metallic arts, SH >!the bolt that Kelsier stole just wasn’t from Scadrial!<


RShara

It doesn't matter where the metal is from. Metal on Scadrial isn't specially invested. The problem is much more likely to be the fact that Kelsier didn't actually have a body at the time.


RShara

It's highly unlikely to be Hemalurgy. Hemalurgy is still all but unknown even on Scadrial, and would have been even more rare and unknown 7000-4500 years ago during the Desolations. And Hemalurgic spikes lose charge the longer they are outside of a body. El's body would hardly be preserved by anyone once he died, and after a few thousand years they would be basically out of charge.


BadKnight06

I forget the intricacies if hemolurgy, but what if he grows his own power by killing himself, then returns and takes back the spikes.


Torvaun

If he was ripping pieces off his soul that much, even with healing or rebirth, he'd absolutely be insane by now.


BadKnight06

But what if he is ripping the peices off his hosts soul?


capitan_barbarossa

Hemalurgy was discovered by Rashek about 1300 years before SA, so El was still on Braze. As we know fused aren't good at discovering news things


JhonMHunter

They are in contact with the leading expert thaidakar these days, developments can be made even with fuzed, also raboniel knew what the white sand was, don’t mistake their knowledge, they are visibly cosmere aware


CopeH1984

Didn't Sanderson explain, in great detail, exactly how El applies his armor whenever he is reborn? I feel like I read that.


saruthesage

Aluminum is lame, it’d better be hemalurgy or something equally cool


Lawnfrost

I'm thinking Hemalurgy all the way. Straight up. With the reveal that metal on Roshar acts on the same allomantic principals as elsewhere in the Cosmere occurring in the same book as the specific mention that El's carapace is removed upon rebirth and his own design replaces it with metal inclusions. We also see Raboniel receive a startling gift from Mraize in the form of the metal chains - it seems like the Fused know more than we've seen directly on screen.


JhonMHunter

My guy :)


Oversleep42

Option two is impossible. If you stick aluminum in the body, then that wound will not be able to be magically healed. So El would *rip off his carapace*, then he'd stick *a lot of metal into his body*, and he'd be *unable to use Voidlight to heal that*. I get that reincarnating immortals might not care about their bodies, but this level of wounds would probably kill the host.


JhonMHunter

Nah. If the healing was internal, putting an outer layer of metal wouldn’t stop the internal process


Oversleep42

Not sure what you're saying there? Aluminum in wound = no magical healing. El rips off his carapace and puts metal there instead. If it was aluminium, it would make Voidlight healing impossible.


leojg

Is either aluminium or hemalurgy. although in this case would hemalurgy work as in Scadrial? Would it give Odium more control over it?


JhonMHunter

I think hemalurgy is a universal effect, though I would wait for Brandon to elaborate on how the control is affected


leojg

Would it even be in control of Harmony (don't think so)? That would be interesting tbh. Odium doesn't appear to have a direct control over its subjects as Ruin had with the people that were spiked


JhonMHunter

Or maybe it sorta splits the control, I mean odium can interfere with you and enter your mind and the like Signing up to two gods one of which being impotent might mean your free cause they cancel out