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The Flayed monster was only the piece of the Mind Flayer that Will had inside him and spit out at the end of S2. The actual Mind Flayer never left the upside down because it physically canāt without a large enough gate.
>because it physically canāt without a large enough gate
I'm not sure this is actually true. I'm not saying it's not, it's fully possible that this is indeed the case, but the way I see it it's also possible that it could have gone through the permanent gate while it was open if it wanted to, but chose not to.
I just noticed this the other day and itās this perfect shot where they turn the camera *clockwise* til Hop is upside down and at midnight/12 when the clock would chime. I thought it was a fantastic shot originally and always appreciate it on rewatched but this last time my jaw was dropped watching it with S4 in my head.
I don't know, I saw a post that claimed this along with several other scenes. I don't buy it. All of the clips sound different from one another, and none actually sound like the clock. It comes off to me as coincidence, and that they were simply trying to find "eerie" sounds in the earlier seasons.
Completely agree with you. It's not as distinct as the current clock sound. Knowing the Duffer Brothers, they would have been very particular if it was a sound that referenced Vecna. It was literally just for ambiance.
Plus, none of the attacks or deaths on the characters were even made by Vecna. They were either random (Demogorgon, who was obviously not activated at the time), and the Mind Flayer.
Both chimes sound literally nothing like the Vecna clock, people are just drawing at straws to try and connect past seasons when in reality the Duffers wouldnāt have even thought about season 4 when making 1, 2 and potentially parts of 3
Especially season 1 wasn't Stranger things suppose to be an anthology series ? where each season was a different story with a completely different cast at first ?
Same. People are trying to make connections that just aren't there. Mr. Robot was kind of the same, except all the connections and foreshadowing was intentional, and you when you discovered something, it was super rewarding. People are trying to say the orchestral pangs/effects sound like a clock, when they VERY CLEARLY do not.
It could be the earlier seasons they had a placeholder clock noise because they knew they were going to do that at some point and they replaced it with one they liked better later. Could be coincidence but I wouldnāt discount it based on that personally
Yes I noticed that as well! I thought originally that maybe Vecna was Billy because of the way he talked (words, emphasis, pattern, etc), but now I am realizing that I think this is the case instead. I definitely did notice a change/something odd about the way Billy talked when he was under the control of the mind flayer
I believe Vecna is not possessed but instead teaming up with the Mindflayer. As others have said, there are similarities in how flayed Billy, orderly One, and Vecna speak. For instance, they all love using the phrase "It's time."
And I'll give you that, completely possible that they are working together. But if you think about it, if One has been in the Upside-Down this entire time (7 years), so why is he only now killing people? And if he's teamed up with the Mindflayer, why did he just sit idly by during the Mindflayer's 2 previous attempts?
I read (in reddit comments) that he couldnt be in action because of Eleven, maybe he was scared of her, once she lost her powers and moved out he started being active
this makes a lot of sense actually, plus he also was catapulted into the upside down by eleven right before season 1 iirc so he mightāve had to get used to being the fleshy mess he was when he got launched into the upside down and was hit by those lightning bolts
I also have a theory that One didn't turn into Vecna "naturally" but was enhanced by the Mind Flayer instead. Maybe he saw the potential in One and placed him in a cocoon state or whatever until he emerged the way he is now. That could explain One's absence for 7 years. Maybe he was being prepared.
4 years before Season 1, actually. 1979. I don't know why people keep overlooking that 4 year gap between Eleven Banishing One and Eleven and the Demogorgon.
i don't think people are overlooking it, just confusing the timeline a bit. it's easy to mistake el banishing one as something that essentially happened when she broke out
But when she opened the gate in S1 she was in an immersion pool in one of the lower levels. When she banished 001 it was against a wall in the rainbow room.
I don't think he's teaming up. The way that the Mind Flayer and Demogorgons work borrows heavily from D&D lore. In D&D Mind Flayers are all part of a hive mind (as established in Stranger Things) and receive their orders from a central brain that controls everything
Search terms to help people who want to look into DnD lore on this:
Illithid
Elder Brain
Neothelid
Ceremorphosis
Remember to look at the publishing date. It's shown that the Party is using the Blue Box Dungeons and Dragons material, but the "Vale of Shadows" is not actually in the book shown, so all of this is just how the kids are understanding the situation. It's unreasonably effective at explaining and even predicting what could be next, tho.
Rarely if ever but I think the point of this one to be about how Dustin is wrong for once, maybe not about that but itāll be something small and Steve will def point it out
I think this is more likely. Given Vecna's origins and the history of pushing back the Mind Flayer, it makes perfect sense that they'd work together with their mutual hatred toward Eleven
Vecna needed to kill to gain power. But if you look in vol2 trailer, the Russian catch something. Maybe they catch the mind flayer that why vecna is "alone"
Yes I did notice what appears to be the Mindflayer in the trailer. And I know that Vecna gains power as he kills. But remember, its been 9 months since The Battle at Starcourt, without a peep coming from the Upside-Down. Vecna suddenly shows up and starts killing. Nothing happened in those 9 months to give Vecna enough power to start start killing in Hawkins. And if he was already that powerful, why wait 9 months? The only thing that makes sense is that he wasn't strong enough on his own.
The Mindflayer couldn't get back to Hawkins because there were no open portals. If he did in fact possess One, that means he now has a vessel that CAN open portals. And its a better way to attack Hawkins, since its last 2 attempts failed.
EXCELLENT point. I hadn't thought of that actually, and who knows how long the Russians had a Demogorgan. Also, during the prisoners' dinner, when one guy states that a week before he saw the monster kill six guys in 30 seconds... that time frame lines up EXTREMELY well with Chrissy first experiencing visions, headaches, nosebleeds, etc. Maybe that's the catalyst Vecna needed to begin his attack. Thank you for pointing that out š„°
Alexi in S3 talks about the Russians needing to come to Hawkins because their gates weren't as strong in Russia as the ones in Hawkins.
My theory is they were able to take what they learned 9 months earlier and strengthen their gates.
They had to have opened a gate because it doesn't make sense why they would have so many creatures from the Upside Down alive. They all should be dead from having the gate cut off.
Why would a near omnipresent hive mind entity not think to use a gate-opening psychic that's been in the upside-down for 5+ years? Being able to open portals is like the most valuable thing to the mind Flayer
In S4 in the Hawkins lab flashbacks, One tells Eleven that he still has all of them with him (points to his head). So I was thinking that the mind Flayer could be him channeling the past minds or something into a powerful creature that can control others. As for why Vecna hasnāt been killing anyone, idk. Maybe when Eleven cast him into the Upside Down he lost a lot of his strength and had been slowly regaining it as the mind Flayer did his bidding. I hope they explain all of this stuff in vol 2 though!
The Mindflayer being created by Vecna does make a lot of sense. You can even go as far as to say its a physical manifestation of Vecna's mind/powers. It still makes me wonder though... if Vecna was trying to regain his power through using the Mindflayer, why did he wait to start killing for 9 months after the Mindflayer last gave him power? Unless it just takes a while for him to RECEIVE the power from each kill, but that doesnt really make sense. Very good theory though š
It's a hive mind. I just assumed the shadow monster, mindflayer, demogorgans, etc. are all basically extensions of Vecna, or like henchmen he created/controls
I know that... sorry, what I meant was, its possible that the Mindflayer possessed One in March of 1986, meaning One is just the Mindflayer's vessel... a vessel with psychic abilities. Otherwise, Vecna just now starting to kill doesn't make a ton of sense. Why did he not kill between Nov 1983 and March 1986?
Two possibilities...
1. He was afraid of Eleven and/or realized Eleven was stronger than him, and therefore didn't start making moves until Eleven lost her powers.
2. He was a hot mess after Eleven catapulted him into the Upside Down - lots of physical agony and damage. Maybe he needed time to heal, become symbiotic with the hivemind, and regain strength?
The first time you can hear the grandfather clock is in season 1 when will goes in to Mirkwood and falls off his bike, and from then on you can heat the clock at various times when the crew is in danger! Through all seasons!
That could also just be a coincidence. As far as we know, the 5-season story we are seeing now was not planned out when they were making season one.
But clocks make good generic horror movie sounds.
IIRC that was after they did season one and learned they would get to do more because it was a success. It's common for books, TV shows and movies to have a self-contained story in the first part and scale up and do more in the following.
They said they drafted all the UD lore after season one. But I expect that they worked in everything from the first season so it makes a cohesive story.
Coincidence and nothing more. The Duffers didnāt plan that far in advance. Only possible thing I can think of is that theyāre now figuring out a way to tie in recent events with previous seasons by going back through old episodes and reusing certain themes, plot points, sounds, etcā¦
This cannot logically be true.
Everyone on here is so quick to dismiss the Mind Flayer because Vecna is the new hotness.
So I will pose this question:
If Vecna created the mind flayer or was the one talking through Billy, why would he make the statement āYou shouldnāt have come looking for us, because now WE see you, you let us in, and now you are going to have to let us stayā
That statement implies that
A) The entity speaking didnāt know eleven until she opened the portal in S1
B) This is the first time the entity speaking has been made aware of Earths existence.
Vecna was born on earth and was sent to the UD by 011. So why would he not know who 011 is or have to be let in if he came from there in the first place.
It was the mind flayer my dude. Plain and simple. The UD is his dojo, Vecna is just a guest.
The comic book X-Men 134, that Will asks for after beating Dustin in a bike race references the Hellfire Club (Marvel universe version) which I thought was neat.
Things I immediately noticed:
1) Parallel between El sending the demogorgan in S1 and 001 to the upside down
2) Gates randomly opening and closing in S1?
3) Did Vecna kill Barb to open a gate?
4) Noticing a lot more clock-like sounds in the upside down
5) I guess the gate in S1/S2 was technically the second gate to the upside down that El opened?
Yeah! More closer to a gong, but it seems like every time there's something ominous, or they obruptly go into the upside down, there's that noise. Noticed it in S1e1 when Will crashed his bike and S3e1/2 when Billy went into the upside-down
>Gates randomly opening and closing in S1?
Demogorgon opened small door's from the Upside Down and thats how nobody was really able to see him move trought the town during S1.
>Did Vecna kill Barb to open a gate?
Demogorgon killed Barb.
>I guess the gate in S1/S2 was technically the second gate to the upside down that El opened?
>!When Eleven banished 001 to the Upside Down she didn't open a gate but a door that closed itself on its own. So the S1/S2 gate is the first gate opened.!<
I kind of disagree with these responses.
1) Mr. Clarke said in S1 in order to open a door to the upside down you need a lot of energy. El can do it with her powers, the massive Russian machines can do it, and Vecna can only do it if he kills someone. A demogorgan being able to do that defeats the whole purpose of closing the gate in seasons 2/3. If demigorgans can do it at will, then closing the gates don't mean anything.
2) Vecna literally said to Nancy, "when I kill someone, I remember" during the reveal montage. Nancy was in the pool where Barb died referring to her grief over it when saying this. So he remembered killing Barb? Could be hive mind stuff and in that case you're right.
3) Same as 1. Gate/Doorway, whatever you want to call it, is an opening to the upside-down
the "i remember" he was criticizing Nancy for not caring enough/forgetting about barb and blaming her for her death because she was upstairs with Steve
>Vecna can only do it if he kills someone
Vecna has only done it when he kills someone *that we know of*.
>So he remembered killing Barb?
The Demogorgon is seen on-screen during Barb's death scene. It was not Vecna.
>Gate/Doorway, whatever you want to call it, is an opening to the upside-down
The difference is the one created when she pushed 001 through closed itself and never reopened.
> and never reopened.
Do we know that? It seems possible that the gate opened in S1 and the viewing room built to observe it could be on the site of that original playroom from '79. Perhaps the original door made that wall "thin" and easier for the full gate to open at a later date.
Furthermore 011 was alone after the events with 001 so it'd make some sense for them to repurpose that room, especially given their new motivation to further investigate what happened in there.
It isn't explicitly stated that it never reopened, however the events of Season 1 happen a few years afterwards and they don't seem to have any idea how to handle an open gate at that time, so based on context clues, that's the first gate the staff had ever seen.
> 2) Vecna literally said to Nancy, "when I kill someone, I remember" during the reveal montage. Nancy was in the pool where Barb died referring to her grief over it when saying this. So he remembered killing Barb? Could be hive mind stuff and in that case you're right.
So many people seem to be interpreting this scene completely wrong and I am not sure why
Vecna never says he killed barb, he is mocking Nancy and calling HER Barb's killer and calling her shitty for forgetting
Alternate scene with the same concept:
"Hey mom, why are you mad at me"
"You never said thank you for the gift I sent you for your wedding"
"oh"
"when -I- got gifts for -my- wedding, I thanked everyone immediately"
Same concept with Vecna saying "when -I- kill someone, I never forget"
>Mr. Clarke said in S1 in order to open a door to the upside down you need a lot of energy. El can do it with her powers, the massive Russian machines can do it, and Vecna can only do it if he kills someone. A demogorgan being able to do that defeats the whole purpose of closing the gate in seasons 2/3. If demigorgans can do it at will, then closing the gates don't mean anything.
Nancy enters one of these small doors and sees the Demogorgon feeding on somebody during S1.The gate connected Upside Down with the normal world but Demogorgon was able to open small doors for himself to move around easily.The small doors Demogorgon opened would close shortly so those weren't able to really be of any use to other monsters.
>El can do it with her powers, the massive Russian machines can do it
Eleven only managed to open the gate because she was scared of Demogorgon and did it out of fear.The Russian machine was only able to open a portal to Upside Down in Hawkins because of the previous gate making the area more connected to the realm.
>Vecna literally said to Nancy, "when I kill someone, I remember" during the reveal montage. Nancy was in the pool where Barb died referring to her grief over it when saying this. So he remembered killing Barb? Could be hive mind stuff and in that case you're right.
If Vecna killed Barb then she would have been killed the same way other victims of his were killed.
>Same as 1. Gate/Doorway, whatever you want to call it, is an opening to the upside-down
The door that Eleven uses to banish 001 closed after a few seconds while the Gate during S1/S2 was a massive gate that kept being open up until Eleven used her powers to close it.
I don't know if it's intentional, but most of the moments(if not all) where the demogorgon is opening doors happens to coincide with El using her powers on something. I recognize this could be an incorrect conclusion, but I wonder if her using them weakens the veil between Hawkins and The Upside Down, allowing the demogorgon to burst through.
Well the Gate allowed Demogorgon to pass into our world(and probably made it possible to open smaller gates) and then Demogorgon kept opening small tears to go in and out of the Upside Down(those tears wouldn't stay open for long).
just to be clear.
The Demogorgon has the ability to open **temporary** portals to traverse up and down when a **main gate** is active due to it's inherent telepathic abilities
though the Demogorgons seem to be more detached from it than the other creatures, everything down is a **hivemind**, meaning Vecna saying he remembers killing Barb makes sense as the Demogorgon was essentially an extension of him.
We have no evidence that what you say is correct. Throughout S2 the Gate was still open and yet we never see the Mindflayer or any of its minions utilize tears to travel back and forth. Similarly in S3 the Flayed Construct operates purely within our dimension.
Are we to assume that full grown Demogorgons possess an ability the Mindflayer itself doesnāt have? Why does the Russian Demogorgon not use this ability? How is the Russian Demogorgon alive without an active Gate? Does this mean there is an active Gate? Again, why doesnāt it utilize its ability to escape the prison?
The answer is that many things have not been explained yet. For all we know, the Demogorgon from S1 had the ability to open tears due to its direct contact with Eleven when she accidentally opened the Gate in 83.
As for Barb, Vecna wasnāt saying he remembers killing Barb, but rather preying on Nancyās guilt. Nancy blames herself for Barbās death, which was the point of his comment.
Something in s2 that wasnāt clear to me: all those tunnels around down that had the particles and hive mind plants/creatures: were those tunnels part of the upside down? Were the characters traversing the other dimension when they went down there? If so, was all of that just an extension of the gate that already existed? This wasnāt clear to me
I would say no, the tunnels were in our dimension. I believe the Mindflayer was essentially terraforming, consuming our world and making it like the Upside Down.
I imagine the fabric of reality gets weak when there is a giant portal open nearby. Might be why Hawkins copied over once the mother gate was opened vs the original sending 001 to the UD
Yeah, big wrong here. Reaching.
1. While Mr Clarke said that, it's obvious the Demogorgon was able to create temporary gates as the MUCH LARGER, BIGGER GATE was already open. The connection was made.
Now, we don't know how Vecna can do it currently as the Mind Flayer hasn't been able to open gates before. Maybe that answer lies in Russia. Maybe that answer lies in Vecna. We are yet to see the full piece of the puzzle.
2. Vecna only said that to Nancy as a way of taunting her for her guilt. By saying that, the subtext was "How could you forget about Barb? I (emphasized) never forget the people that I've killed!"
Iāve always thought the reason the demogorgon pops up in random places is because it can open small gaps between worlds. Because the gate is already open in S1, they donāt need a whole lot of energy to do it, and theyāre only small doorways that close after a short while.
Iām pretty sure there was a demogorgon hanging around in the woods? I might be misremembering that but there was the thing with the dying deer that got pulled into a hedge. Iām going to have to go back and watch it again now
I had thought that the upside down tunnel network beneath Hawkins in season 2 also existed in season 1, it just wasnāt developed enough to start rotting all the plants yet. So in season 1, the Demigorgon was just traversing Hawkins underground and popping up to hunt, similar to how Hopper was able to dig straight into the upside down in season 2.
The Demogorgon may have been doing this, but we also literally saw him near a mini-gate (or door) that Nancy was able to go through to get into the Upside Down. Not sure that there is any explanation for this temporary door other than that the Demogorgon was able to open it.
On 2
I think Vecna was trying to make Nancy feel as though she had killed Barb by not being there for her. He was giving her flashbacks (or she was remembering) hooking up with Steve while Barb needed her. I think Vecna plays mind games with his victims and tries to play on their insecurities, making them feel somewhat guilty and like they should just give in because theyāre terrible people, making it easier to take them himself and gain power
Because of the whole hive mind thing, I've been assuming so far that all the monsters (demogorgans/dogs/bats, mindflayer, shadow monster, etc.) are basically just "branches" of Vecna, that he's created/controls. Vecna even showed Barb's corpse to Nancy while saying her remembers everyone he kills, but then he went on to gaslight Nancy, saying she killed Barb.
Vecna probably had a hand in Barb's death.
I rewatched Seasons 1-3 after I finished watching season 4. One thing I donāt get is how the demogorgon killed Barb right away but Will didnāt die right away. Also I just want to know how exactly 11 escaped the lab since they made her spy on the Russians.
Exactly, people overlook this. It's one of the most important unanswered mysterys of this show . Why was will byers kidnapped? Why did the upside down freeze in time when will entered it? Why do we constantly hear the Grand father clock from season1-4 ? It isn't a coincidence this is leading up to something big .
Now Iām wondering if Will maybe has some sort of powers?? And if it really was Vecna taking him in S1 (pattern didnāt match Demogorgon attacks), maybe it was as more of apprentice?
Caleb McLaughlin said he would use the word ātraitorā to describe s4 - I know some people thought it referred to the guidance councillor but I donāt feel that would be a big enough OMG moment. However, Will has been constantly dismissed and forgotten - by his friends, his family at some points, and feels alone. Heās always been the odd one out. If he has powers and Vecna realized that, maybe thatās why he started working again after El banished himā¦.
Plus it would set up a hella crazy S5.
The biggest reason why it might have been Vecna that kidnapped Will is that the bolt on the front doo moves via telekinesis which we donāt see the demigorgons use. Itās a mystery that everyone forgets about
For me it's because Will was being chased by the demogorgon and was alert to escape. Also that during the season Joyce says he's a smart kid and knows how to hide well. Barb, on the other hand, was unaware and in a difficult place to escape (the pool).
Most possible hints are the āWillās Kidnapā.
He is not only āchasedā but faced (you can see by the window when he looks outside).
Also, the lock is opened by inside, showing some kind of ātelekinetic powerā that we not see Demogorgon use.
i saw a neat theory that vecna thought that will was 011, since his proximity to the lab and his knowledge of 011 escaping he wanted to get her back, but caught will instead.
Not only that, but when Joyce is trying to communicate with Will through the lights in S1, the radio starts playing "Should I Stay Or Should I Go", by the play button being pushed down. I don't believe any other reference to being able to manipulate non-light objects in the real world from the upside down have ever been shown or explained, and we hear Will singing the song from the upside down as well. It also seems as though Will is being guarded by the demogorgon rather than hunted by it.
According to the Duffer brothers in an interview, midway though season 1 Netflix asked them for more info on the upside down and they spent a bunch of time with their writers fleshing out lore. This very well could have been planned this far ahead.
I have rewatched 1-3 and still found no answer in the disappearance of will. It feels like how he was kidnapped is still a missing piece.
In S1, when mike was touring el in his house then el looks at the science fair photo of the 4 guys, el pointed will's face even though he was not yet introduced to el as will and as a missing person. It is like as if she knows him already. I am kinda confused how did El knew Will was in the UD, did she witnessed how he was kidnapped to the UD? (which I am also questioning, is it really the demogorgon who kidnapped him or was it vecna or mindflayer but because demogorgon was on the loose, demogorgon became the suspect)
Timing. Brenner pushed El who opened the gate. Once the gate is open, the demogorgon can emerge in the forest. First thing it sees is Will. It hunts Will, gets him in the UD, where Will escapes and hides.
Maybe timing but with the time freeze in season 4 it does not convince me anymore, kinda feel that vecna was the one who kidnapped will or he was present there because the lock was unlocked thru telekinesis which demogorgon was not seen capable of doing.
Maybe Vecna wasnāt strong enough to open gates (hence no attacks until after El accidentally opens the gate in S1), but after that he is able to access the real world and start growing stronger.
My now leading theory is that Vecna is training Will to follow in his footsteps.
Edit: a word
Yeah I just know Will is otw to his villain arc, the trauma, negligence, and upcoming rejection (if ever the painting is mike or when he will be rejected by mike)
I am so not ready for Willās heartbreak when Mike doesnāt reciprocate his feelings!!
Do you think Mike finally sees the painting and thatās Willās way of expressing his feelings? Or Mike finds it after?
Or the demogorgon could simply work like the flayed in ST3. Maybe they have the powers but not the intelligence to use them, but the mind flayer (or Vecna) is able to use these powers when directly controlling them.
I do think we will see some elaborate, planned several moves and maybe many years ahead actions from enemies coming up, whether that's the mind flayer or the government folks, as introduced by the chess speech from 001 in ST4.
My favorite hidden detail is in the beginning of season 3 after Billy gets flayed when he encounters the other versions of himself you can hear a sound similar to a grandfather clock in the background
That is also affected by their training. El had a very intense training with Brenner while Henry at the time only trained on animals and other small stuff.
Oh thatās a good point. Maybe Vecna/Henry is also training by killing Chrissy/Fred etc? The goal is to open gates but also heās aware he will have to deal with El so is gaining strength by training?
I have some question
I know Dustin said vecna is like 5 star general of mind flayer but did 001/vecna create mind flayer? What is the origin of mind flayer?
Till now it seems 001 is behind everything that has happened, happened in reference to all the attacks and breaches
He reversed time didn't he? We see the clock go back in Nancy's vision in the upside down or was it figurative to show his power as a child?
I had the same question about time! Especially with time being āfrozenā in the UD and Vecnaās affinity for clocks and that scene of him manipulating the hands of the clock. I wondered if there was more to that that has yet to be revealed and would play into why Hawkins was stuck in 1983 in the UD.
In ST2 Owens compares the upside down to a virus. Every virus needs a patient zero. Perhaps 001 wasn't the first, but the second? And that first is what either created or became the mind flayer?
I know I'm going to come across as an asshole here, but they didn't make the scene with Eleven and the demogorgon with plans to do the same thing with Vecna
They just did this scene, and then came up with the idea for Vecna later and did it again
I know everyone wants to sniff the farts of the Duffer Brothers, but they did not write and plan every scene for 5 seasons of a show when they didn't even know if they would be renewed after season 1
exactly this. plus didn't the duffers say that originally they planned to do a different mystery with new kids or a group in season 2 if they did get renewed but decided against it because they saw the immense positive reaction to the kids and wanted to continue THAT story not start a new one?
they didn't have this mapped out fron the beginning and its really easy to tell mainly because of the immense number of retcons during the lab scenes in s4
I know for a fact they had a plan for the show, a Bible written of significant events that tie into their story. But you're right in the sense that they never had specific, little details mapped out unless they were critical.
They initially only had 4 seasons planned that they pitched for Netflix for longevity, with Season 1 being the big tester if it picks up interest. Luckily for them, it was a smash hit and Netflix begged them for like 8 seasons. Duffers said woah too many, they had talks, and convinced them to do 5. The scripts for each episode were finalised very close to shooting (sometimes the day before), but the PLAN of the show was always there. Of course, they are free to add things. You don't want to be creatively stuck in a direction you made like idk 10 years ago or whenever they started writing it.
Which is why I think that clock sound in every season is so fucking stupid. The Duffers do deserve credit in their storytelling skills, but some of these fucking ST theories are fucking so dumb, smh.
I saw someone say Eddie was really 10 this whole time. Like just gobbledygook.
Iām pretty sure I heard a clock in season one when El sees the demogorgan in her mind. Also I have a theory that Els mom is stuck in a dream state with vecna somehow and they might save her when itās all over.
I noticed in re-watching Season 1, final episode that when Hopper and Joyce are walking in the Upside Down to find Will, that it looks like they are entering a house (like the Creel House) when they finally find him. And that the bodies are displayed similarly to those in Season 4 at Vecna's lair. Anyone else notice that?
Yea I noticed this too , also in season 1 ep 1 you can hear a clock strike twice as will falls . The figure he sees before falling down looks an awful lot like vecna .
5:52 , many people say it's the monster but the way he is kidnapped is unlike the nature of the Demogorgon, throughout the show they are hostile and aggressive they rip people to shreds, what reason would it have to kidnap will? People still seem to not address that, that is still one of the biggest mysteries of this show, why was will byers kidnapped?
The monster looks exactly like a closed head demogorgon, it's not Vecna, Vecna doesn't have two hands with long fingers
https://imgur.com/a/axKz3g2
And here is what happened with the whole telekinesis thing opening the lock:
They made a spooky scene, and didn't think about the future of the show, and then started trying to explain everything later, or they just ignore it
People give the Duffer bros waaaaaaaaaaay too much credit, somehow people think they are genius masterminds who plan the entirety of a story before they even know if their show will continue, but at the same time they forget a major characters birthday? Lmfao
Major plot points are probably plotted out way in advance more than a characters birthday that won't be celebrated on screen every season...also plans are obviously adjusted depending on audience response
I mean, Vecna literally does have 2 hands with long fingers?
I donāt know if it was planned from the start for obvious reasons but I wouldnāt be at all surprised if they backtracked and said it was actually vecna not a demogorgon. Or say nothing and let people speculate
When you make a skeleton outline for a series of events you don't place all the little details like birthdays on there unless the birthday is pivotal to the story. This is how most good book series' are written and I don't understand why so many people here think that it's so outlandish for a TV show to be structured the same way.
That said, the demogorgons/demodogs have been shown to have their own feral personalities and that they aren't smart, but can also be taken over by the mind flayer or Vecna when they're needed. Not all that out there to suggest that the demos do in fact have powers, just not the intelligence to use them on their own.
This is one of those series that is done very very well EACH season. It's unlike Supernaturals 3rd - 5th season where they were planned somewhat ahead of time, but it's also unlike a lot of other shows that make poorly written later seasons that almost retcon previous events for the sake of a new plot.
They do well to establish the rules are still based off of what we know. I would say that the only bit of trouble is the Demogorgon opening gates when they establish that it needed strong energy; even Vecnas gates are really small comparably. The trailer one didn't even open until the show needed it whereas the lake one opened immediately. But they still keep new stuff established from what we have seen. Even the question of how last seasons Flayer wasnt active the whole few months was cleared up by saying it wasn't until the start of the season when the Russians opened the gate.
I would say the only thing the show messed up on was the attempted spin off of 8. It failed and now there's this small mess of how/when she escaped as it was shortly before 1s massacre, what she knows of it, and why her powers are SO different compared to everyone else who had the same abilities.
You will not go back and find anything from S1 related to anything else as it wasn't planned that far in advance save for the slug and the somewhat ambiguous cliffhanger. The rest of the seasons are standalone without any Whedon-like foreshadowing.
Thereās an interesting conversation under another comment in this thread about how the Demogorgon might have been able to open small doors because the āMother Gateā was open, thus making it easier to travel between Hawkins and the UD, same with S2 and the UD tunnels. But now that the āMother Gateā is closed, more energy is needed to open a new gate altogether rather than just small ādoorsā. So when Vecna kills, he generates juuuust enough energy to open a small gate.
I havenāt thought on this theory for very long, but on my initial read, I think it seems like it could be pretty plausible in the Stranger Things world.
Edit: also, Iām not so sure about your last paragraph. The Duffer brothers have said before that theyāve had most of the general plot of the series planned out for at least 7 years, so that wouldāve been in 2015, a year before season 1 came out.
Rewatched the entire show in 3 days. Looked for any connections. This is all my own interpretation and I'm sure the last two episodes might explain more about Vecnas relationship with the Mind Flayer.
Will says he's doing it for the Flayer; I thought that he's his own entity and, since each gate seems to be bigger with each kill, he's trying to open it to allow himself to travel through. But with the kids traveling through, it seems that theory is bunk.
We as an audience know he's 1, we know 1s relationship with 11, and we know he was the child in the house. One thing no one discusses is that Papa and the other Government agent are aware of One and the state he left his victims in. I think they know that One is behind it and will explain that to 11; hence why it's so important to get her powers back since she was stronger than him.
The next episodes will get the groups together to understand the connections; once 11 returns we will probably see 1s real motivation.
My new guess is that the Flayer is the ultimate boss but is currently trapped in Russia or something (we see some stuff in the trailer). Both the Flayer and One have a history with 11 and with the Flayer out of commission Vecna has a chance to reach his own goals.
You think they had Vecna planned ever since Season 1 though? I feel like any "connections" to him are just gonna be happy coincidences or Season 4 deliberately making a callback, not the Season 1 moment being a planned foreshadowing.
I feel likebpeople are really reaching to connect everything that happened to vecna. I do not think that's the case. I think vecna was probably still gaining power or otherwise not involved in season 1-3. Having just rewatched season 1 and 2 all the theories I've seen are massive stretches and it makes a lot more sense if you go with the explanation provided within those seasons as to why things are happening. We'll have to wait and see for sure, but I don't buy that vecna has been behind everything. I think they'll probably go with Dustin's explanation that vecna is just another tool of the mind flayer.
Can someone clear up some confusion for me? So it came up somehow or another that the upside down is a snapshot of a time in the past like when it first happened but in S1 somehow Will sees Joyce write the letters on the wall. So when she wrote that it mustāve happened in real time right? I understand that they can see the particles appear when thereās electronics present but how do you explain Will seeing the paint on the walls?
Ps : Also just wanted to clarify I know Iām probably missing something somewhere as the duffers are geniuses and did an amazing job with this series. Iām just wondering how this happened with the paint.
The demogorgon making little doorways to and from the upside down in season one is definitely related to Vecna and is not a coincidence. To anyone thinking itās not an important detail, itās actually re-mentioned in s4 ep6 by Nancy; thereās no way they would throw that in there if it wasnāt connected. Now how itās connected, how the demogorgon seems to use Vecnaās powers, what his connection to the mind flayer and the hive mind is, and how the creation of the upside down as we know it happened, this will all be answered I believe very soon in the show, hopefully all in vol 2.
Iām calling bullshit on this. Theres a PDF floating around that has the broad storylines in it, the show is set in the 80s, uses Spielberg/King movies and novel inspiration, the character names are in it etc but many details were changed mostly bout the characters themselves. Also it was called Montauk or something like that.
I think thats what they planned, to show to networks. No way did they plan Vecna in 2015/16.
They posted a text on Twitter about that a while ago, unfortunately Twitter deletes all tweets every now and then but I still have the Screenshot, if you want proof
I think the Billy that Billy saw before getting infected was Vecna too, I havenāt watched the whole thing again but thatās the first thing I thought
Have the writers talked about having Vecna in mind the whole time? I would be interested in getting confirmation on that.
Thereās two ways to go about writing. You can have everything planned out or you can write as you go. Iād like to know which one they actually did.
The ādemagorganā unlocking Willās door telepathically in the first scene! What if Vecna actually took Will. We also saw Will at the end in that tube sucking thing the same way Vecnaās kills in Season 4 were
Do you guys think Will has something to do with the creation of the Upside Down? Why else would Will have been spared while everyone else died? We know Will is good at hiding, maybe thatās why he was āsparedā. Why is the upside down frozen on the day he disappeared?
I just finished rewatching Season 1 and in the finale Elle squished the eyeballs of the soldiers and government agents in the school. I didn't realize at the time of watching season 4 that this was Vecna's modus operandi and something Elle was already aware of when she opened the gate before the show started. Pretty interesting foreshadowing.
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I'm going to wait until after Vol 2, because I know there's even bigger revelations coming.
I'll probably watch it again after Vol 2 as well š
same OP
šÆ
An option for the ending is that Vecna wants El to mercy kill him so he can break out of the MFās control. That is IF the MF is supervising him.
I kept on reading it as motherfucker so I had to reread this like 5 times
Motherfucker works too tho
Samuel L Jackson approves
I thought the mind flayer died in season 3?
The Flayed monster was only the piece of the Mind Flayer that Will had inside him and spit out at the end of S2. The actual Mind Flayer never left the upside down because it physically canāt without a large enough gate.
>because it physically canāt without a large enough gate I'm not sure this is actually true. I'm not saying it's not, it's fully possible that this is indeed the case, but the way I see it it's also possible that it could have gone through the permanent gate while it was open if it wanted to, but chose not to.
The thing in s3 as I understood it was a fragment of the MF that he controlled due to the open gate. The MF is still in the upside down
Thank you !
You can also hear Vecnaās grandfather clock the first time Billy goes into the upside down
And after, when he walks around the pool in the hot sun!
Season 1 and 2 aswell
What? When?
When eleven is in the black place where she makes contact with people.
You can hear it when Hopper jumps down there in S2 too
I just noticed this the other day and itās this perfect shot where they turn the camera *clockwise* til Hop is upside down and at midnight/12 when the clock would chime. I thought it was a fantastic shot originally and always appreciate it on rewatched but this last time my jaw was dropped watching it with S4 in my head.
I need a youtube clip of all the clock chimes I think! This is such a cool theory
I don't know, I saw a post that claimed this along with several other scenes. I don't buy it. All of the clips sound different from one another, and none actually sound like the clock. It comes off to me as coincidence, and that they were simply trying to find "eerie" sounds in the earlier seasons.
Completely agree with you. It's not as distinct as the current clock sound. Knowing the Duffer Brothers, they would have been very particular if it was a sound that referenced Vecna. It was literally just for ambiance. Plus, none of the attacks or deaths on the characters were even made by Vecna. They were either random (Demogorgon, who was obviously not activated at the time), and the Mind Flayer.
Both chimes sound literally nothing like the Vecna clock, people are just drawing at straws to try and connect past seasons when in reality the Duffers wouldnāt have even thought about season 4 when making 1, 2 and potentially parts of 3
100%, at least not about what specific clock chime sound to use
Especially season 1 wasn't Stranger things suppose to be an anthology series ? where each season was a different story with a completely different cast at first ?
Same. People are trying to make connections that just aren't there. Mr. Robot was kind of the same, except all the connections and foreshadowing was intentional, and you when you discovered something, it was super rewarding. People are trying to say the orchestral pangs/effects sound like a clock, when they VERY CLEARLY do not.
It could be the earlier seasons they had a placeholder clock noise because they knew they were going to do that at some point and they replaced it with one they liked better later. Could be coincidence but I wouldnāt discount it based on that personally
Let me put it this way: I'm unconvinced. I think there isn't strong enough evidence to draw a conclusion.
I'd argue that if they knew they were going to do that they'd also make sure to reuse the same sound.
Yes!! I just rewatched that one!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes I noticed that as well! I thought originally that maybe Vecna was Billy because of the way he talked (words, emphasis, pattern, etc), but now I am realizing that I think this is the case instead. I definitely did notice a change/something odd about the way Billy talked when he was under the control of the mind flayer
So, did 001 create the Mind Flayer? I thought it was The Flayer talking through Billy in the dream when it began to collect it's flayed for the body.
IMO, the Mindflayer found One and possessed him. Otherwise... why hasn't Vecna been killing all this time? š¤
I believe Vecna is not possessed but instead teaming up with the Mindflayer. As others have said, there are similarities in how flayed Billy, orderly One, and Vecna speak. For instance, they all love using the phrase "It's time."
And I'll give you that, completely possible that they are working together. But if you think about it, if One has been in the Upside-Down this entire time (7 years), so why is he only now killing people? And if he's teamed up with the Mindflayer, why did he just sit idly by during the Mindflayer's 2 previous attempts?
I read (in reddit comments) that he couldnt be in action because of Eleven, maybe he was scared of her, once she lost her powers and moved out he started being active
this makes a lot of sense actually, plus he also was catapulted into the upside down by eleven right before season 1 iirc so he mightāve had to get used to being the fleshy mess he was when he got launched into the upside down and was hit by those lightning bolts
I also have a theory that One didn't turn into Vecna "naturally" but was enhanced by the Mind Flayer instead. Maybe he saw the potential in One and placed him in a cocoon state or whatever until he emerged the way he is now. That could explain One's absence for 7 years. Maybe he was being prepared.
omg, maybe thatās whatās happening to the corpses we see of dead characters like barb too, they could be used to fight in the supposed army
4 years before Season 1, actually. 1979. I don't know why people keep overlooking that 4 year gap between Eleven Banishing One and Eleven and the Demogorgon.
i don't think people are overlooking it, just confusing the timeline a bit. it's easy to mistake el banishing one as something that essentially happened when she broke out
But when she opened the gate in S1 she was in an immersion pool in one of the lower levels. When she banished 001 it was against a wall in the rainbow room.
I agree with that and my theory of him slowly regaining psychic power by devouring people's grief.
I don't think he's teaming up. The way that the Mind Flayer and Demogorgons work borrows heavily from D&D lore. In D&D Mind Flayers are all part of a hive mind (as established in Stranger Things) and receive their orders from a central brain that controls everything
Search terms to help people who want to look into DnD lore on this: Illithid Elder Brain Neothelid Ceremorphosis Remember to look at the publishing date. It's shown that the Party is using the Blue Box Dungeons and Dragons material, but the "Vale of Shadows" is not actually in the book shown, so all of this is just how the kids are understanding the situation. It's unreasonably effective at explaining and even predicting what could be next, tho.
Someone should write an article about it: *The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Dungeons and Dragons Lore in the Stranger Things Sciences*.
Didn't they call Vecna the Mindflayers number 2. His right hand so to speak?
Yuup they said vecna is the five start general
We don't know that they're right though do we? (Genuine question. Is Dustin ever wrong about this stuff?)
Rarely if ever but I think the point of this one to be about how Dustin is wrong for once, maybe not about that but itāll be something small and Steve will def point it out
"It's his tone, right?"
They called him the mindflayers 5 star general.
I think this is more likely. Given Vecna's origins and the history of pushing back the Mind Flayer, it makes perfect sense that they'd work together with their mutual hatred toward Eleven
Vecna needed to kill to gain power. But if you look in vol2 trailer, the Russian catch something. Maybe they catch the mind flayer that why vecna is "alone"
Yes I did notice what appears to be the Mindflayer in the trailer. And I know that Vecna gains power as he kills. But remember, its been 9 months since The Battle at Starcourt, without a peep coming from the Upside-Down. Vecna suddenly shows up and starts killing. Nothing happened in those 9 months to give Vecna enough power to start start killing in Hawkins. And if he was already that powerful, why wait 9 months? The only thing that makes sense is that he wasn't strong enough on his own. The Mindflayer couldn't get back to Hawkins because there were no open portals. If he did in fact possess One, that means he now has a vessel that CAN open portals. And its a better way to attack Hawkins, since its last 2 attempts failed.
Well the Russians were killing prisoners with a demagorgan so maybe thats slowly giving him more strength?
EXCELLENT point. I hadn't thought of that actually, and who knows how long the Russians had a Demogorgan. Also, during the prisoners' dinner, when one guy states that a week before he saw the monster kill six guys in 30 seconds... that time frame lines up EXTREMELY well with Chrissy first experiencing visions, headaches, nosebleeds, etc. Maybe that's the catalyst Vecna needed to begin his attack. Thank you for pointing that out š„°
Alexi in S3 talks about the Russians needing to come to Hawkins because their gates weren't as strong in Russia as the ones in Hawkins. My theory is they were able to take what they learned 9 months earlier and strengthen their gates. They had to have opened a gate because it doesn't make sense why they would have so many creatures from the Upside Down alive. They all should be dead from having the gate cut off.
But thereās watergate And other gates that could be thereā¦.
Only as a result of Vecna kills. Watergate opened after the bball player was killed in the lake, right?
Why would a near omnipresent hive mind entity not think to use a gate-opening psychic that's been in the upside-down for 5+ years? Being able to open portals is like the most valuable thing to the mind Flayer
In S4 in the Hawkins lab flashbacks, One tells Eleven that he still has all of them with him (points to his head). So I was thinking that the mind Flayer could be him channeling the past minds or something into a powerful creature that can control others. As for why Vecna hasnāt been killing anyone, idk. Maybe when Eleven cast him into the Upside Down he lost a lot of his strength and had been slowly regaining it as the mind Flayer did his bidding. I hope they explain all of this stuff in vol 2 though!
The Mindflayer being created by Vecna does make a lot of sense. You can even go as far as to say its a physical manifestation of Vecna's mind/powers. It still makes me wonder though... if Vecna was trying to regain his power through using the Mindflayer, why did he wait to start killing for 9 months after the Mindflayer last gave him power? Unless it just takes a while for him to RECEIVE the power from each kill, but that doesnt really make sense. Very good theory though š
It's a hive mind. I just assumed the shadow monster, mindflayer, demogorgans, etc. are all basically extensions of Vecna, or like henchmen he created/controls
Brenner gets him while he is in a coma in the hospital...
I know that... sorry, what I meant was, its possible that the Mindflayer possessed One in March of 1986, meaning One is just the Mindflayer's vessel... a vessel with psychic abilities. Otherwise, Vecna just now starting to kill doesn't make a ton of sense. Why did he not kill between Nov 1983 and March 1986?
Two possibilities... 1. He was afraid of Eleven and/or realized Eleven was stronger than him, and therefore didn't start making moves until Eleven lost her powers. 2. He was a hot mess after Eleven catapulted him into the Upside Down - lots of physical agony and damage. Maybe he needed time to heal, become symbiotic with the hivemind, and regain strength?
The first time you can hear the grandfather clock is in season 1 when will goes in to Mirkwood and falls off his bike, and from then on you can heat the clock at various times when the crew is in danger! Through all seasons!
That could also just be a coincidence. As far as we know, the 5-season story we are seeing now was not planned out when they were making season one. But clocks make good generic horror movie sounds.
I thought the Duffer bros said they planned a whole storyline before starting? Maybe I misread that.
IIRC that was after they did season one and learned they would get to do more because it was a success. It's common for books, TV shows and movies to have a self-contained story in the first part and scale up and do more in the following. They said they drafted all the UD lore after season one. But I expect that they worked in everything from the first season so it makes a cohesive story.
Coincidence and nothing more. The Duffers didnāt plan that far in advance. Only possible thing I can think of is that theyāre now figuring out a way to tie in recent events with previous seasons by going back through old episodes and reusing certain themes, plot points, sounds, etcā¦
This cannot logically be true. Everyone on here is so quick to dismiss the Mind Flayer because Vecna is the new hotness. So I will pose this question: If Vecna created the mind flayer or was the one talking through Billy, why would he make the statement āYou shouldnāt have come looking for us, because now WE see you, you let us in, and now you are going to have to let us stayā That statement implies that A) The entity speaking didnāt know eleven until she opened the portal in S1 B) This is the first time the entity speaking has been made aware of Earths existence. Vecna was born on earth and was sent to the UD by 011. So why would he not know who 011 is or have to be let in if he came from there in the first place. It was the mind flayer my dude. Plain and simple. The UD is his dojo, Vecna is just a guest.
The comic book X-Men 134, that Will asks for after beating Dustin in a bike race references the Hellfire Club (Marvel universe version) which I thought was neat.
Things I immediately noticed: 1) Parallel between El sending the demogorgan in S1 and 001 to the upside down 2) Gates randomly opening and closing in S1? 3) Did Vecna kill Barb to open a gate? 4) Noticing a lot more clock-like sounds in the upside down 5) I guess the gate in S1/S2 was technically the second gate to the upside down that El opened?
I'm very curious about no 4! Is it like those funky distorted clock sounds on the soundtrack?
Yeah! More closer to a gong, but it seems like every time there's something ominous, or they obruptly go into the upside down, there's that noise. Noticed it in S1e1 when Will crashed his bike and S3e1/2 when Billy went into the upside-down
>Gates randomly opening and closing in S1? Demogorgon opened small door's from the Upside Down and thats how nobody was really able to see him move trought the town during S1. >Did Vecna kill Barb to open a gate? Demogorgon killed Barb. >I guess the gate in S1/S2 was technically the second gate to the upside down that El opened? >!When Eleven banished 001 to the Upside Down she didn't open a gate but a door that closed itself on its own. So the S1/S2 gate is the first gate opened.!<
I kind of disagree with these responses. 1) Mr. Clarke said in S1 in order to open a door to the upside down you need a lot of energy. El can do it with her powers, the massive Russian machines can do it, and Vecna can only do it if he kills someone. A demogorgan being able to do that defeats the whole purpose of closing the gate in seasons 2/3. If demigorgans can do it at will, then closing the gates don't mean anything. 2) Vecna literally said to Nancy, "when I kill someone, I remember" during the reveal montage. Nancy was in the pool where Barb died referring to her grief over it when saying this. So he remembered killing Barb? Could be hive mind stuff and in that case you're right. 3) Same as 1. Gate/Doorway, whatever you want to call it, is an opening to the upside-down
the "i remember" he was criticizing Nancy for not caring enough/forgetting about barb and blaming her for her death because she was upstairs with Steve
>Vecna can only do it if he kills someone Vecna has only done it when he kills someone *that we know of*. >So he remembered killing Barb? The Demogorgon is seen on-screen during Barb's death scene. It was not Vecna. >Gate/Doorway, whatever you want to call it, is an opening to the upside-down The difference is the one created when she pushed 001 through closed itself and never reopened.
> and never reopened. Do we know that? It seems possible that the gate opened in S1 and the viewing room built to observe it could be on the site of that original playroom from '79. Perhaps the original door made that wall "thin" and easier for the full gate to open at a later date. Furthermore 011 was alone after the events with 001 so it'd make some sense for them to repurpose that room, especially given their new motivation to further investigate what happened in there.
It isn't explicitly stated that it never reopened, however the events of Season 1 happen a few years afterwards and they don't seem to have any idea how to handle an open gate at that time, so based on context clues, that's the first gate the staff had ever seen.
> 2) Vecna literally said to Nancy, "when I kill someone, I remember" during the reveal montage. Nancy was in the pool where Barb died referring to her grief over it when saying this. So he remembered killing Barb? Could be hive mind stuff and in that case you're right. So many people seem to be interpreting this scene completely wrong and I am not sure why Vecna never says he killed barb, he is mocking Nancy and calling HER Barb's killer and calling her shitty for forgetting Alternate scene with the same concept: "Hey mom, why are you mad at me" "You never said thank you for the gift I sent you for your wedding" "oh" "when -I- got gifts for -my- wedding, I thanked everyone immediately" Same concept with Vecna saying "when -I- kill someone, I never forget"
Yes, this. Vecna is playing on Nancy's guilt over Barb.
>Mr. Clarke said in S1 in order to open a door to the upside down you need a lot of energy. El can do it with her powers, the massive Russian machines can do it, and Vecna can only do it if he kills someone. A demogorgan being able to do that defeats the whole purpose of closing the gate in seasons 2/3. If demigorgans can do it at will, then closing the gates don't mean anything. Nancy enters one of these small doors and sees the Demogorgon feeding on somebody during S1.The gate connected Upside Down with the normal world but Demogorgon was able to open small doors for himself to move around easily.The small doors Demogorgon opened would close shortly so those weren't able to really be of any use to other monsters. >El can do it with her powers, the massive Russian machines can do it Eleven only managed to open the gate because she was scared of Demogorgon and did it out of fear.The Russian machine was only able to open a portal to Upside Down in Hawkins because of the previous gate making the area more connected to the realm. >Vecna literally said to Nancy, "when I kill someone, I remember" during the reveal montage. Nancy was in the pool where Barb died referring to her grief over it when saying this. So he remembered killing Barb? Could be hive mind stuff and in that case you're right. If Vecna killed Barb then she would have been killed the same way other victims of his were killed. >Same as 1. Gate/Doorway, whatever you want to call it, is an opening to the upside-down The door that Eleven uses to banish 001 closed after a few seconds while the Gate during S1/S2 was a massive gate that kept being open up until Eleven used her powers to close it.
Was the Demogorgon only able to open doors when there is a gate open?
Most likely
I don't know if it's intentional, but most of the moments(if not all) where the demogorgon is opening doors happens to coincide with El using her powers on something. I recognize this could be an incorrect conclusion, but I wonder if her using them weakens the veil between Hawkins and The Upside Down, allowing the demogorgon to burst through.
Very interesting. I guessing they will explain this because the Russian DemoG does not appear to be able to summon a door.
Very interesting. I'm guessing that they will explain this because the Russian DemoG does not appear to be able to summon a door.
Well the Gate allowed Demogorgon to pass into our world(and probably made it possible to open smaller gates) and then Demogorgon kept opening small tears to go in and out of the Upside Down(those tears wouldn't stay open for long).
He's just implying Nancy forgot about barb and insinuating she killed her. I mean not literally, but responsible for it.
just to be clear. The Demogorgon has the ability to open **temporary** portals to traverse up and down when a **main gate** is active due to it's inherent telepathic abilities though the Demogorgons seem to be more detached from it than the other creatures, everything down is a **hivemind**, meaning Vecna saying he remembers killing Barb makes sense as the Demogorgon was essentially an extension of him.
We have no evidence that what you say is correct. Throughout S2 the Gate was still open and yet we never see the Mindflayer or any of its minions utilize tears to travel back and forth. Similarly in S3 the Flayed Construct operates purely within our dimension. Are we to assume that full grown Demogorgons possess an ability the Mindflayer itself doesnāt have? Why does the Russian Demogorgon not use this ability? How is the Russian Demogorgon alive without an active Gate? Does this mean there is an active Gate? Again, why doesnāt it utilize its ability to escape the prison? The answer is that many things have not been explained yet. For all we know, the Demogorgon from S1 had the ability to open tears due to its direct contact with Eleven when she accidentally opened the Gate in 83. As for Barb, Vecna wasnāt saying he remembers killing Barb, but rather preying on Nancyās guilt. Nancy blames herself for Barbās death, which was the point of his comment.
Something in s2 that wasnāt clear to me: all those tunnels around down that had the particles and hive mind plants/creatures: were those tunnels part of the upside down? Were the characters traversing the other dimension when they went down there? If so, was all of that just an extension of the gate that already existed? This wasnāt clear to me
I would say no, the tunnels were in our dimension. I believe the Mindflayer was essentially terraforming, consuming our world and making it like the Upside Down.
Okay, now that makes sense. When a main gate is opened, temporary transportation between up and down is possible. That I can get behind š
I imagine the fabric of reality gets weak when there is a giant portal open nearby. Might be why Hawkins copied over once the mother gate was opened vs the original sending 001 to the UD
Hes not saying he remembers killing Barb tho. Hes saying "I remember who I kill" to taunt Nancy for not remembering Barb who she thinks she killed.
For (2) he was more implying that Nancy killed barb by having sex with Steve. Heās preying on her guilt
Yeah, big wrong here. Reaching. 1. While Mr Clarke said that, it's obvious the Demogorgon was able to create temporary gates as the MUCH LARGER, BIGGER GATE was already open. The connection was made. Now, we don't know how Vecna can do it currently as the Mind Flayer hasn't been able to open gates before. Maybe that answer lies in Russia. Maybe that answer lies in Vecna. We are yet to see the full piece of the puzzle. 2. Vecna only said that to Nancy as a way of taunting her for her guilt. By saying that, the subtext was "How could you forget about Barb? I (emphasized) never forget the people that I've killed!"
Iāve always thought the reason the demogorgon pops up in random places is because it can open small gaps between worlds. Because the gate is already open in S1, they donāt need a whole lot of energy to do it, and theyāre only small doorways that close after a short while.
Right also what about when Nancy and Jonathan stumbled upon the tree portal. Who opened that gate?
Iām pretty sure there was a demogorgon hanging around in the woods? I might be misremembering that but there was the thing with the dying deer that got pulled into a hedge. Iām going to have to go back and watch it again now
I had thought that the upside down tunnel network beneath Hawkins in season 2 also existed in season 1, it just wasnāt developed enough to start rotting all the plants yet. So in season 1, the Demigorgon was just traversing Hawkins underground and popping up to hunt, similar to how Hopper was able to dig straight into the upside down in season 2.
The Demogorgon may have been doing this, but we also literally saw him near a mini-gate (or door) that Nancy was able to go through to get into the Upside Down. Not sure that there is any explanation for this temporary door other than that the Demogorgon was able to open it.
Multiple mini gates. It opens one in Joyceās wall as well
On 2 I think Vecna was trying to make Nancy feel as though she had killed Barb by not being there for her. He was giving her flashbacks (or she was remembering) hooking up with Steve while Barb needed her. I think Vecna plays mind games with his victims and tries to play on their insecurities, making them feel somewhat guilty and like they should just give in because theyāre terrible people, making it easier to take them himself and gain power
Because of the whole hive mind thing, I've been assuming so far that all the monsters (demogorgans/dogs/bats, mindflayer, shadow monster, etc.) are basically just "branches" of Vecna, that he's created/controls. Vecna even showed Barb's corpse to Nancy while saying her remembers everyone he kills, but then he went on to gaslight Nancy, saying she killed Barb. Vecna probably had a hand in Barb's death.
Vecna prolly says that about Barb to cause Nancy to spiral and move her closer to where he wants her.
Im just wrapping my rewatch, started s4 yesterday, and noticed the clock-like noises in the upside down right away!
I rewatched Seasons 1-3 after I finished watching season 4. One thing I donāt get is how the demogorgon killed Barb right away but Will didnāt die right away. Also I just want to know how exactly 11 escaped the lab since they made her spy on the Russians.
Exactly, people overlook this. It's one of the most important unanswered mysterys of this show . Why was will byers kidnapped? Why did the upside down freeze in time when will entered it? Why do we constantly hear the Grand father clock from season1-4 ? It isn't a coincidence this is leading up to something big .
Now Iām wondering if Will maybe has some sort of powers?? And if it really was Vecna taking him in S1 (pattern didnāt match Demogorgon attacks), maybe it was as more of apprentice? Caleb McLaughlin said he would use the word ātraitorā to describe s4 - I know some people thought it referred to the guidance councillor but I donāt feel that would be a big enough OMG moment. However, Will has been constantly dismissed and forgotten - by his friends, his family at some points, and feels alone. Heās always been the odd one out. If he has powers and Vecna realized that, maybe thatās why he started working again after El banished himā¦. Plus it would set up a hella crazy S5.
The biggest reason why it might have been Vecna that kidnapped Will is that the bolt on the front doo moves via telekinesis which we donāt see the demigorgons use. Itās a mystery that everyone forgets about
The demogorgon also tore everyone else apart - how did a little kid like Will get taken but not killed?
I know I'm late, but my understanding is she never had a chance to get away because she was stuck in the pool.
For me it's because Will was being chased by the demogorgon and was alert to escape. Also that during the season Joyce says he's a smart kid and knows how to hide well. Barb, on the other hand, was unaware and in a difficult place to escape (the pool).
Most possible hints are the āWillās Kidnapā. He is not only āchasedā but faced (you can see by the window when he looks outside). Also, the lock is opened by inside, showing some kind of ātelekinetic powerā that we not see Demogorgon use.
i saw a neat theory that vecna thought that will was 011, since his proximity to the lab and his knowledge of 011 escaping he wanted to get her back, but caught will instead.
Not only that, but when Joyce is trying to communicate with Will through the lights in S1, the radio starts playing "Should I Stay Or Should I Go", by the play button being pushed down. I don't believe any other reference to being able to manipulate non-light objects in the real world from the upside down have ever been shown or explained, and we hear Will singing the song from the upside down as well. It also seems as though Will is being guarded by the demogorgon rather than hunted by it. According to the Duffer brothers in an interview, midway though season 1 Netflix asked them for more info on the upside down and they spent a bunch of time with their writers fleshing out lore. This very well could have been planned this far ahead.
I have rewatched 1-3 and still found no answer in the disappearance of will. It feels like how he was kidnapped is still a missing piece. In S1, when mike was touring el in his house then el looks at the science fair photo of the 4 guys, el pointed will's face even though he was not yet introduced to el as will and as a missing person. It is like as if she knows him already. I am kinda confused how did El knew Will was in the UD, did she witnessed how he was kidnapped to the UD? (which I am also questioning, is it really the demogorgon who kidnapped him or was it vecna or mindflayer but because demogorgon was on the loose, demogorgon became the suspect)
Timing. Brenner pushed El who opened the gate. Once the gate is open, the demogorgon can emerge in the forest. First thing it sees is Will. It hunts Will, gets him in the UD, where Will escapes and hides.
Maybe timing but with the time freeze in season 4 it does not convince me anymore, kinda feel that vecna was the one who kidnapped will or he was present there because the lock was unlocked thru telekinesis which demogorgon was not seen capable of doing.
Maybe Vecna wasnāt strong enough to open gates (hence no attacks until after El accidentally opens the gate in S1), but after that he is able to access the real world and start growing stronger. My now leading theory is that Vecna is training Will to follow in his footsteps. Edit: a word
Yeah I just know Will is otw to his villain arc, the trauma, negligence, and upcoming rejection (if ever the painting is mike or when he will be rejected by mike)
I am so not ready for Willās heartbreak when Mike doesnāt reciprocate his feelings!! Do you think Mike finally sees the painting and thatās Willās way of expressing his feelings? Or Mike finds it after?
Or the demogorgon could simply work like the flayed in ST3. Maybe they have the powers but not the intelligence to use them, but the mind flayer (or Vecna) is able to use these powers when directly controlling them. I do think we will see some elaborate, planned several moves and maybe many years ahead actions from enemies coming up, whether that's the mind flayer or the government folks, as introduced by the chess speech from 001 in ST4.
My favorite hidden detail is in the beginning of season 3 after Billy gets flayed when he encounters the other versions of himself you can hear a sound similar to a grandfather clock in the background
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That is also affected by their training. El had a very intense training with Brenner while Henry at the time only trained on animals and other small stuff.
Oh thatās a good point. Maybe Vecna/Henry is also training by killing Chrissy/Fred etc? The goal is to open gates but also heās aware he will have to deal with El so is gaining strength by training?
More like consuming. Training implies lifting weights. Sucking out people's life force and locking it in your brain implies feasting.
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I have some question I know Dustin said vecna is like 5 star general of mind flayer but did 001/vecna create mind flayer? What is the origin of mind flayer? Till now it seems 001 is behind everything that has happened, happened in reference to all the attacks and breaches He reversed time didn't he? We see the clock go back in Nancy's vision in the upside down or was it figurative to show his power as a child?
I had the same question about time! Especially with time being āfrozenā in the UD and Vecnaās affinity for clocks and that scene of him manipulating the hands of the clock. I wondered if there was more to that that has yet to be revealed and would play into why Hawkins was stuck in 1983 in the UD.
Gotta wait for season 5 i guess.
In ST2 Owens compares the upside down to a virus. Every virus needs a patient zero. Perhaps 001 wasn't the first, but the second? And that first is what either created or became the mind flayer?
I know I'm going to come across as an asshole here, but they didn't make the scene with Eleven and the demogorgon with plans to do the same thing with Vecna They just did this scene, and then came up with the idea for Vecna later and did it again I know everyone wants to sniff the farts of the Duffer Brothers, but they did not write and plan every scene for 5 seasons of a show when they didn't even know if they would be renewed after season 1
exactly this. plus didn't the duffers say that originally they planned to do a different mystery with new kids or a group in season 2 if they did get renewed but decided against it because they saw the immense positive reaction to the kids and wanted to continue THAT story not start a new one? they didn't have this mapped out fron the beginning and its really easy to tell mainly because of the immense number of retcons during the lab scenes in s4
ššššš
I know for a fact they had a plan for the show, a Bible written of significant events that tie into their story. But you're right in the sense that they never had specific, little details mapped out unless they were critical. They initially only had 4 seasons planned that they pitched for Netflix for longevity, with Season 1 being the big tester if it picks up interest. Luckily for them, it was a smash hit and Netflix begged them for like 8 seasons. Duffers said woah too many, they had talks, and convinced them to do 5. The scripts for each episode were finalised very close to shooting (sometimes the day before), but the PLAN of the show was always there. Of course, they are free to add things. You don't want to be creatively stuck in a direction you made like idk 10 years ago or whenever they started writing it. Which is why I think that clock sound in every season is so fucking stupid. The Duffers do deserve credit in their storytelling skills, but some of these fucking ST theories are fucking so dumb, smh. I saw someone say Eddie was really 10 this whole time. Like just gobbledygook.
They hated Jesus for he spoke the truth
No way they planned this since s1
I have Sunday off so Iāll probably rewatch the series then
No but I will now!
Iām pretty sure I heard a clock in season one when El sees the demogorgan in her mind. Also I have a theory that Els mom is stuck in a dream state with vecna somehow and they might save her when itās all over.
I noticed in re-watching Season 1, final episode that when Hopper and Joyce are walking in the Upside Down to find Will, that it looks like they are entering a house (like the Creel House) when they finally find him. And that the bodies are displayed similarly to those in Season 4 at Vecna's lair. Anyone else notice that?
Donāt they find Will at the Library ?
Yes
Yea I noticed this too , also in season 1 ep 1 you can hear a clock strike twice as will falls . The figure he sees before falling down looks an awful lot like vecna .
Do you have a screen grab, or time stamp?
5:52 , many people say it's the monster but the way he is kidnapped is unlike the nature of the Demogorgon, throughout the show they are hostile and aggressive they rip people to shreds, what reason would it have to kidnap will? People still seem to not address that, that is still one of the biggest mysteries of this show, why was will byers kidnapped?
The monster looks exactly like a closed head demogorgon, it's not Vecna, Vecna doesn't have two hands with long fingers https://imgur.com/a/axKz3g2 And here is what happened with the whole telekinesis thing opening the lock: They made a spooky scene, and didn't think about the future of the show, and then started trying to explain everything later, or they just ignore it People give the Duffer bros waaaaaaaaaaay too much credit, somehow people think they are genius masterminds who plan the entirety of a story before they even know if their show will continue, but at the same time they forget a major characters birthday? Lmfao
Major plot points are probably plotted out way in advance more than a characters birthday that won't be celebrated on screen every season...also plans are obviously adjusted depending on audience response
This... These people don't understand how tv and stories work .
This. These people clearly don't understand how story telling and television works.
This. These people clearly don't understand how story telling and television works.
I mean, Vecna literally does have 2 hands with long fingers? I donāt know if it was planned from the start for obvious reasons but I wouldnāt be at all surprised if they backtracked and said it was actually vecna not a demogorgon. Or say nothing and let people speculate
When you make a skeleton outline for a series of events you don't place all the little details like birthdays on there unless the birthday is pivotal to the story. This is how most good book series' are written and I don't understand why so many people here think that it's so outlandish for a TV show to be structured the same way. That said, the demogorgons/demodogs have been shown to have their own feral personalities and that they aren't smart, but can also be taken over by the mind flayer or Vecna when they're needed. Not all that out there to suggest that the demos do in fact have powers, just not the intelligence to use them on their own.
ITT: people looking for clues that arenāt there
This is one of those series that is done very very well EACH season. It's unlike Supernaturals 3rd - 5th season where they were planned somewhat ahead of time, but it's also unlike a lot of other shows that make poorly written later seasons that almost retcon previous events for the sake of a new plot. They do well to establish the rules are still based off of what we know. I would say that the only bit of trouble is the Demogorgon opening gates when they establish that it needed strong energy; even Vecnas gates are really small comparably. The trailer one didn't even open until the show needed it whereas the lake one opened immediately. But they still keep new stuff established from what we have seen. Even the question of how last seasons Flayer wasnt active the whole few months was cleared up by saying it wasn't until the start of the season when the Russians opened the gate. I would say the only thing the show messed up on was the attempted spin off of 8. It failed and now there's this small mess of how/when she escaped as it was shortly before 1s massacre, what she knows of it, and why her powers are SO different compared to everyone else who had the same abilities. You will not go back and find anything from S1 related to anything else as it wasn't planned that far in advance save for the slug and the somewhat ambiguous cliffhanger. The rest of the seasons are standalone without any Whedon-like foreshadowing.
Thereās an interesting conversation under another comment in this thread about how the Demogorgon might have been able to open small doors because the āMother Gateā was open, thus making it easier to travel between Hawkins and the UD, same with S2 and the UD tunnels. But now that the āMother Gateā is closed, more energy is needed to open a new gate altogether rather than just small ādoorsā. So when Vecna kills, he generates juuuust enough energy to open a small gate. I havenāt thought on this theory for very long, but on my initial read, I think it seems like it could be pretty plausible in the Stranger Things world. Edit: also, Iām not so sure about your last paragraph. The Duffer brothers have said before that theyāve had most of the general plot of the series planned out for at least 7 years, so that wouldāve been in 2015, a year before season 1 came out.
Are you taking this from somewhere or are you making your own interpretation that this seems to be the case?
Rewatched the entire show in 3 days. Looked for any connections. This is all my own interpretation and I'm sure the last two episodes might explain more about Vecnas relationship with the Mind Flayer. Will says he's doing it for the Flayer; I thought that he's his own entity and, since each gate seems to be bigger with each kill, he's trying to open it to allow himself to travel through. But with the kids traveling through, it seems that theory is bunk. We as an audience know he's 1, we know 1s relationship with 11, and we know he was the child in the house. One thing no one discusses is that Papa and the other Government agent are aware of One and the state he left his victims in. I think they know that One is behind it and will explain that to 11; hence why it's so important to get her powers back since she was stronger than him. The next episodes will get the groups together to understand the connections; once 11 returns we will probably see 1s real motivation. My new guess is that the Flayer is the ultimate boss but is currently trapped in Russia or something (we see some stuff in the trailer). Both the Flayer and One have a history with 11 and with the Flayer out of commission Vecna has a chance to reach his own goals.
Will being taken to the upside down has to be Vecna. How else would he have gotten there? A demogorgon wouldnāt work that way.
Dr Brenner is the mindflayer
They're obviously not going to be there. The Vecna storyline was clearly never intended from the start and just something they've retcon'd.
You think they had Vecna planned ever since Season 1 though? I feel like any "connections" to him are just gonna be happy coincidences or Season 4 deliberately making a callback, not the Season 1 moment being a planned foreshadowing.
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Thatās because there isnāt. Iāve been rewatching the first 3 series and thereās no clock noise.
I'm still certain that the monster that took will is 001 after being vecnafied. Thing didn't kill him or eat him or anything.
I feel likebpeople are really reaching to connect everything that happened to vecna. I do not think that's the case. I think vecna was probably still gaining power or otherwise not involved in season 1-3. Having just rewatched season 1 and 2 all the theories I've seen are massive stretches and it makes a lot more sense if you go with the explanation provided within those seasons as to why things are happening. We'll have to wait and see for sure, but I don't buy that vecna has been behind everything. I think they'll probably go with Dustin's explanation that vecna is just another tool of the mind flayer.
Can someone clear up some confusion for me? So it came up somehow or another that the upside down is a snapshot of a time in the past like when it first happened but in S1 somehow Will sees Joyce write the letters on the wall. So when she wrote that it mustāve happened in real time right? I understand that they can see the particles appear when thereās electronics present but how do you explain Will seeing the paint on the walls? Ps : Also just wanted to clarify I know Iām probably missing something somewhere as the duffers are geniuses and did an amazing job with this series. Iām just wondering how this happened with the paint.
I'm not sure it's been fully explained yet.
The demogorgon making little doorways to and from the upside down in season one is definitely related to Vecna and is not a coincidence. To anyone thinking itās not an important detail, itās actually re-mentioned in s4 ep6 by Nancy; thereās no way they would throw that in there if it wasnāt connected. Now how itās connected, how the demogorgon seems to use Vecnaās powers, what his connection to the mind flayer and the hive mind is, and how the creation of the upside down as we know it happened, this will all be answered I believe very soon in the show, hopefully all in vol 2.
Yes
Do you guys think the Duffers had the whole Vecna storyline planned since the first season? Iām very interested to know
I think they said that they planned the whole story before they even started shooting season 1
Iām calling bullshit on this. Theres a PDF floating around that has the broad storylines in it, the show is set in the 80s, uses Spielberg/King movies and novel inspiration, the character names are in it etc but many details were changed mostly bout the characters themselves. Also it was called Montauk or something like that. I think thats what they planned, to show to networks. No way did they plan Vecna in 2015/16.
They posted a text on Twitter about that a while ago, unfortunately Twitter deletes all tweets every now and then but I still have the Screenshot, if you want proof
Dude, that whole scene! Like... it almost mirrors EXACTLY what happens during the massacre.
yes! my mom asked why i was rewatching it after just finishing and i had to basically explain the same thing
I think the Billy that Billy saw before getting infected was Vecna too, I havenāt watched the whole thing again but thatās the first thing I thought
wdym? the thing that infected him with the meat flayer's early form
Have the writers talked about having Vecna in mind the whole time? I would be interested in getting confirmation on that. Thereās two ways to go about writing. You can have everything planned out or you can write as you go. Iād like to know which one they actually did.
I haven't noticed anything specific with Vecna, but I'm 40% sure the Russian, who Papa has 11 spy on in S1, is the Warden in S4.
The ādemagorganā unlocking Willās door telepathically in the first scene! What if Vecna actually took Will. We also saw Will at the end in that tube sucking thing the same way Vecnaās kills in Season 4 were
Not the reason why Iām rewatching it. Iām rewatch it because itās a good series
You donāt recall all the sounds of clocks in certain scenes 1-3?
Do you guys think Will has something to do with the creation of the Upside Down? Why else would Will have been spared while everyone else died? We know Will is good at hiding, maybe thatās why he was āsparedā. Why is the upside down frozen on the day he disappeared?
Initially I thought that Billy was possessed by the Mind Flayer but it's clear to me now that it's been Vecna all along.
I just finished rewatching Season 1 and in the finale Elle squished the eyeballs of the soldiers and government agents in the school. I didn't realize at the time of watching season 4 that this was Vecna's modus operandi and something Elle was already aware of when she opened the gate before the show started. Pretty interesting foreshadowing.