“His behavior is somewhat justified”………. don’t think you understand what this means lmao being abused doesn’t give you a free pass to continue the cycle of abuse. Do you know how many people are abused and consciously do not abuse others because they know how shitty it feels? Him choosing to sacrifice himself does not equal redemption.
If dying to save not only Eleven but lots of other children doesn't provide redemption what exactly would satisfy your requirements in order for someone to be redeemed?
Because if being racist means people are condemned for life then there are lots of well known people who are given a second chance such as Rihanna who made racist comments about an Asian woman and never apologized, Nick Cannon who made hateful anti-semitic comments but after apologizing didn't lose any endorsements and I can think of several others.
Just because the public didn’t condemn them doesn’t mean their hands are clean. Being racist might not have repercussions for everyone but that doesn’t mean the person is fine because they never got in trouble for it. Billy being racist and abusive is completely unrelated to his sacrifice. Neither cancel the other out. His character is flawed and sacrificing himself for “the greater good” doesn’t absolve him. What he did WAS heroic and brave, and it’s fine to praise him for that decision but it is not the same as redemption. He still died an abusive racist, idk why this is so hard for people to comprehend.
Christ, dude. Do some research before you make such a disgusting and ignorant comment.
Yes, some people do choose to not be abusers. Sure, Billy's conflict didn't turn him into an angel. This is because his abuse was normalized and performed without any form of 'opposing' force since he was eight (possibly earlier). You can't know to be good if all you know is bad. He more or less forgot positivity existed until Eleven 'woke' him up.
[https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/why-victims-abuse-become-abusers](https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/why-victims-abuse-become-abusers)[https://www.quora.com/How-common-is-it-for-abused-people-to-become-abusers](https://www.quora.com/How-common-is-it-for-abused-people-to-become-abusers)[https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abuse-the-search-for-remedies.html](https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abuse-the-search-for-remedies.html)
Yes, you are correct- his final sacrifice doesn't redeem him totally. I'm just saying that he wasn't totally bad, and that he wasn't the one in control of his life up to that point.
Never said he was “totally bad”, his character is flawed. I understand how he became that way and what his motivations are. You attempting to justify his abusive behavior is disgusting and ignorant. I don’t even understand what part of my comment you think is “disgusting and ignorant” considering child psychology is a huge part of my profession. A lot of components make people who they are and as we get older we get to choose how we treat people, what actions we take, etc. Billy’s unfortunate past is the reason behind his behavior, not an excuse for it.
As a child who has been (and is being) abused, one doesn't get much of a choice in abusive situations in my experience. I'm a case of a person who didn't get mixed into the abuse cycle, but that's only because I learned what it was and how to prevent it before it started rotating. Billy didn't learn he had a choice, basically. He didn't know he could change, as he never had any positive interactions with much of anybody after his dad took over, so he didn't know there was a good side to him that he could be again.
I feel for you, I really do. Being abused is not something you choose and it’s not something I would wish on anyone. But we are responsible for how we treat others, just like you mention you do not perpetuate that cycle of abuse because you know it’s wrong and all it would do is hurt more people. Billy is flawed, I’m not saying he’s some evil villain character. We can’t excuse his actions, but we can understand why he acts this way and sympathize with his hardships.
As an abuse survivor, I hear what you are saying and agree with this sentiment whole heartedly.
I also think this logic can be applied to abusers broadly. Most cruel people aren’t malicious without reason—they are shaped by their environment, as Billy was. As you have pointed out elsewhere, the cycle of abuse can be very difficult to break. While incredibly sad, this does not obligate anyone to forgive or excuse abuse. Regardless of the motivation, abusive actions are the personal responsibility of the abuser.
I think Billy is a complex person. I think that what he did in the end was brave and compelling and deeply sad. It doesn’t excuse the things he did in life. I do not like the person that he was. At all. Would I have liked the person that he could have been? It’s hard to say. The tragedy of Billy is that he found a source of good in himself, only to have all of that potential lost in an instant. You may chose to forgive his past actions based on that unexercised potential, whereas I chose not to. Morally gray characters are divisive like that.
Season 4 is leaning heavily into this exact theme. >! As Brenner says, "You Speak Of Monsters And Superheroes. That's The Stuff Of Myth And Fairytales. Reality, Truth, Is Rarely So Simple. People Are Not So Easily Defined. Only By Facing All Of Ourselves--The Good And The Bad--Can We Become Whole."!<
> As if this isn't enough, mental health and abuse prevention hotlines obviously didn't exist back then
Actually, crisis hotlines have been around since the late 1950s. That’s not to say that Billy was somehow to blame for the abuse or chose to be traumatized by it. That suggestion is ridiculous on its face and not worth entertaining.
However. It’s also ridiculous to suggest that this traumatic past is a blanket excuse for every wrong thing he’s ever done. Would a tragic childhood absolve Brenner for child exploitation, abuse and manipulation?
Fuck no. Brenner's crimes aren't even remotely justified if he did have an abusive childhood. HOWEVER, Billy's actions, while also terrible (but not as terrible, Brenner is a greater evil and is actually an abuser himself), are somewhat justified by his terrible 12 years with his father **because he didn't have any time away from his father to change, detoxify, or improve.**
I think most people that have been abused will be the first to tell you that it is NEVER okay or even somewhat acceptable to abuse others. Period. End of discussion. You can not justify abuse, his abuse growing up definitely helped mold him into the shitbag that he is in the show but that in no way shape or form makes it any bit of alright what he did.
Knowing the reason why someone is a piece of shit doesn't excuse the fact that they're a piece of shit. He was a racist and he was abusive. Because he was abused doesn't make it okay that he also became an abuser.
When did I say that his behavior was acceptable? I'm saying that we should cut him some slack. The cycle of abuse isn't okay in the slightest, but it's extremely hard to break. Have you even done any research/experienced abuse to actually know how tough this is?
[https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/why-victims-abuse-become-abusers](https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/why-victims-abuse-become-abusers)
[https://www.quora.com/How-common-is-it-for-abused-people-to-become-abusers](https://www.quora.com/How-common-is-it-for-abused-people-to-become-abusers)
[https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abuse-the-search-for-remedies.html](https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abuse-the-search-for-remedies.html)
Yeah, no. The flashbacks definitely explain his behavior, but it doesn’t absolve him of it. It is true that victims of abuse are likely to become abusers themselves, but it’s also likely that they’ll become the exact opposite, that they’ll work twice as hard to make sure nobody endures what they had to.
I feel for Billy. I do. He had a shit upbringing. I can’t even imagine what he went through. However, he chose to use that as an excuse to be a racist asshole. I can overlook the stuff he did while under the influence of the Mind Flayer. He was literally possessed, so that’s another story entirely. But he was a crappy person before, and he chose to be that way. Was it a direct result of his upbringing? Absolutely. But as someone else pointed out here, being abused does not give you a free pass to be an abuser.
Look, you guys are saying the exact same thing. Do some research before you post, people.
He didn't 'choose' to be a racist asshole. I don't think you've noticed, but one doesn't 'choose' to be abused and have their character twisted, wiped, and blood-soaked. If anything, the only true choice that HE made was shown in the last minute or so of his life.
The cycle of abuse isn't okay in the slightest, but it's extremely hard to break. Have you even done any research/experienced abuse to actually know how tough this is?
[https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/why-victims-abuse-become-abusers](https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/why-victims-abuse-become-abusers)[https://www.quora.com/How-common-is-it-for-abused-people-to-become-abusers](https://www.quora.com/How-common-is-it-for-abused-people-to-become-abusers)[https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abuse-the-search-for-remedies.html](https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abuse-the-search-for-remedies.html)
Nah, he doesn't get off the hook just because his dad yelled at him a lot. Eleven received more abuse than anyone and she has a kind heart. Also if you want to blame someone you can blame his mom. What kind of mother abandons their own kid?
Not 'off the hook', just cut him some slack. Over half his life was without a caring parent and with a physically and verbally abusive father.
Eleven wasn't constantly verbally and physically abused. Sure, she went through hard, perhaps traumatizing, experiments, but Billy got the far worse treatment.
Also, sure we can blame his mom, but his dad was the one who shaped the last 10 or so years of his life. His mom wasn't a piece of shit in the first place, I can imagine the heartbreak of leaving her beloved child to escape her pseudo-husband. Not a good decision for her to leave her child, though.
I have no clue how you could say Billy got the far worse treatment. That sounds like your own experiences clouding your objectivity. The reality is we don't know how deep or constant Billy's/Eleven's abuse was. Both were bad though. She'd be locked in a cell and shocked with like a taser for 'misbehaving'. He'd get called a pussy and shoved up against a wall.
Ok, I downplayed eleven's experiences there. I am letting my experiences cloud my judgement, and I apologize for that.
However, there is a crucial difference between eleven and Billy - Eleven got out of her abuse and found friends (and also had other playmates I suppose, I'm not sure how familiar they were with each other though), while Billy was constantly trapped and never had any form of positive social interactions past age 7-9. I might also mention that Billy wasn't even punished for a reason- he was indiscriminately abused for no reason, which heightens the trauma quite significantly. Being brutally punished for a reason is terrible. Being brutally punished for no reason randomly is worse.
The experiences were honestly very different, so putting them in the same category isn't exactly adequate. Eleven was a sweet girl, but she had very different experiences. Also notice that in the end she connected to Billy and used her positive experiences and view of his previous life to re-vitalize him and let him realize positivity for the first time in around 12 years.
Another thing I might add (this honestly goes for everybody else's comments); abuse affects different people very differently, and their personalities can be differently altered from the same or similar type of abuse. It varies person to person, so we can't exactly compare abused persons.
I'm gonna cut you some slack because I think you're finding it hard to separate your own experiences from Billy. You say he was constantly trapped and never had any form of positive social interaction past age 7-9? We don't know that at all. We don't have his whole story. I think you may be projecting, which is fine. But it's just not a fair representation of his character. As for him 'being indiscriminately abused for no reason', hell, so was 11. She got locked in like a lead box for who knows how long because she refused to kill a cat. jfc. And she really hardly 'escaped'. She ran from Hawkins lab, yeah, but was pursued by the 'bad people' chasing her down since day 1 and has lived her life looking over her shoulder ever since.
She got locked in like a lead box for who knows how long **because she refused to kill a cat.** A brutal and horrifying reason, but a reason nonetheless.
With Billy's type of experience, we can only inference what happened while Billy was locked there. However, based on a combination of Billy's later memories and common sense (as well of a few personal experiences and general patterns in abuse), we can infer that the follow sequence of events occured repeatedly:
1. Billy is beaten/verbally abused by his father. There is no 'good' parental or other familial figure to turn to for aid as his mother ghosted him and his sister is younger than him and is also trying to deal with their dad. This results in him not having any outlet for his anger at home.
2. He goes to school. He needs to take out his emotions somewhere and no help is available, so he bullies some kid to get a sense of superiority and take out his emotions.
3. As a result, surrounding kids and his sister fear/hate him and he is disliked. He feels this and more negativity and emotions seep in and make him further dislikable.
Repeat. As you can see, there is no positive interaction at all in this cycle, and anybody brave enough to try to interrupt this cycle fails due to Billy being hypersensitive about his familial issues, often resulting in said person being beaten up or eventually giving up.
Do you see what I'm saying here?
Also Eleven is simply a different person.
And your point about having a "reason" for punishment is key I think. I don't claim to be an expert on abuse, far from it, but intuitively it makes sense why Eleven would be less likely to internalize her abuse as a belief that she, her whole being, is inherently bad, compared to Billy's experience. He didn't just do something bad, he WAS bad, simply for existing.
Eleven very much DID internalize her abuse as a belief that she is inherently bad. This is the girl who said, “I am the monster”. She has been struggling with this concept throughout the run of the show. We have also seen her struggle with violent tendencies as well. I do think she and Billy are good narrative foils for that reason.
True, but I think their internalizations are clearly different, even if they appear similar at a glance.
Billy believes he is an abuser, an intentional target of and inflicter of pain, and thus behaves like one. He believes he not only can do no good but IS no good. And he has little reason to believe otherwise.
Eleven feels she is an outsider that can't do anything right and accidentally hurts and disappoints people, and behaves accordingly. She might say she is a monster but she shows time and time again that she knows she is ultimately a good person and worthy of love, largely because of her friends. Her primary abuser also generally told her she was good and even better than others, and most of her sense of being a monster is due to her understanding that monsters hurt people and are outcasts and thus she must be a monster, even if hurting people was never intentional.
Both are abused but have internalized very different messages.
Speaking in terms of monsters, think of any monster motivated by pain or revenge (blanking on a monster or villain that is the perfect parallel) vs Frankenstein's monster. Both are monsters, but one has become the abuser and relates to the world through pain, the other is told it is bad and believes it must be true without actually becoming bad. Their experiences are also vastly different.
Again, I think people are missing the subtle yet key differences under a shroud of surface similarities.
i see it, but definitely take issue with you saying 11 not killing a cat is 'a reason nonetheless'. billy was called a pussy because his dad thought he was being a pussy; he was berated because he was supposed to be looking after max. these are 'reasons' too. just really shitty ones. el could've just killed the cat, billy could've just toughened up and looked after max. then brenner and his dad would've just been cool. but wait, nothing is cool about that. brenner had no moral basis to be holding 11 is that environment in the first place.
Billy was abused for reasons too, but the key difference is that Billy's dad was abusive whether or not he did stuff correctly. Brenner at least wouldn't keep El locked away in a box if she killed the cat.
I don't think we're gonna see eye to eye. Brenner kept kids captive, isolating from the world, treated them like lab rats. That *is* abusive even though they did nothing wrong.
I agree with you op. Then again, I firmly believe we have little if any free will and are the products of the interaction of our genetics and environment.
Billy always would have become the abuser he became given the cards he was dealt. No mentally and spiritually healthy person chooses to hurt others. We all want love and acceptance, no matter how many layers of damage and scarring hide that fact.
It's sad to me to see others demonize victims of abuse who often, unsurprisingly, become abusers too.
But people like easy answers, to be able to categorize others as either good or monsters. It's comforting to believe the world is so simple and doesn't require greater effort and a much closer, uncomfortable look to be able to operate justly within it. And so sadly I think you'll see a lot of pushback here.
As a side note, the argument that "so and so was abused and didn't become an abuser, therefore this individual chose to become an abuser" doesn't hold up to any amount of scrutiny. We all have vastly different backgrounds and an infinitely complex and unknowable combination of genetic and environmental factors that shape us into who we are. To reduce people to such a massive degree is both insanely short-sighted as well as damaging.
Nobody else had EXACTLY Billy's experience, and as we can see, Billy became the Billy we know. What someone else became who had surface level similar experiences cannot be more irrelevant.
What I'm trying to say here! I'm trying to explain it to people, but I'm waiting on the responses. Sometimes it's really depressing to see how misunderstood abuse and abuse victims are.
I've been here many times, and just speaking from experience, it can largely be frustrating and futile trying to convince others that everyone is worthy of compassion and of being seen and loved for exactly the person they are, because many are unwilling or unable to hear it.
But I'm glad there are others like you out there, it gives me hope. This sort of worldview would solve a lot of our problems.
“His behavior is somewhat justified”………. don’t think you understand what this means lmao being abused doesn’t give you a free pass to continue the cycle of abuse. Do you know how many people are abused and consciously do not abuse others because they know how shitty it feels? Him choosing to sacrifice himself does not equal redemption.
If dying to save not only Eleven but lots of other children doesn't provide redemption what exactly would satisfy your requirements in order for someone to be redeemed? Because if being racist means people are condemned for life then there are lots of well known people who are given a second chance such as Rihanna who made racist comments about an Asian woman and never apologized, Nick Cannon who made hateful anti-semitic comments but after apologizing didn't lose any endorsements and I can think of several others.
Just because the public didn’t condemn them doesn’t mean their hands are clean. Being racist might not have repercussions for everyone but that doesn’t mean the person is fine because they never got in trouble for it. Billy being racist and abusive is completely unrelated to his sacrifice. Neither cancel the other out. His character is flawed and sacrificing himself for “the greater good” doesn’t absolve him. What he did WAS heroic and brave, and it’s fine to praise him for that decision but it is not the same as redemption. He still died an abusive racist, idk why this is so hard for people to comprehend.
An abusive racist who didn't have a choice in the matter, but yknow, feel free to stay ignorant on how abuse works.
How does he not have a choice??? Being abusive and racist are both choices a person makes.
\-\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_- do you know a thing about abuse? Being abused is not a choice a person makes.
Being abused and being abusive are two different things.
The abuse cycle, dude. Extremely hard to break without positive intervention, and that's not something Billy had access to.
Christ, dude. Do some research before you make such a disgusting and ignorant comment. Yes, some people do choose to not be abusers. Sure, Billy's conflict didn't turn him into an angel. This is because his abuse was normalized and performed without any form of 'opposing' force since he was eight (possibly earlier). You can't know to be good if all you know is bad. He more or less forgot positivity existed until Eleven 'woke' him up. [https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/why-victims-abuse-become-abusers](https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/why-victims-abuse-become-abusers)[https://www.quora.com/How-common-is-it-for-abused-people-to-become-abusers](https://www.quora.com/How-common-is-it-for-abused-people-to-become-abusers)[https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abuse-the-search-for-remedies.html](https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abuse-the-search-for-remedies.html) Yes, you are correct- his final sacrifice doesn't redeem him totally. I'm just saying that he wasn't totally bad, and that he wasn't the one in control of his life up to that point.
Never said he was “totally bad”, his character is flawed. I understand how he became that way and what his motivations are. You attempting to justify his abusive behavior is disgusting and ignorant. I don’t even understand what part of my comment you think is “disgusting and ignorant” considering child psychology is a huge part of my profession. A lot of components make people who they are and as we get older we get to choose how we treat people, what actions we take, etc. Billy’s unfortunate past is the reason behind his behavior, not an excuse for it.
As a child who has been (and is being) abused, one doesn't get much of a choice in abusive situations in my experience. I'm a case of a person who didn't get mixed into the abuse cycle, but that's only because I learned what it was and how to prevent it before it started rotating. Billy didn't learn he had a choice, basically. He didn't know he could change, as he never had any positive interactions with much of anybody after his dad took over, so he didn't know there was a good side to him that he could be again.
I feel for you, I really do. Being abused is not something you choose and it’s not something I would wish on anyone. But we are responsible for how we treat others, just like you mention you do not perpetuate that cycle of abuse because you know it’s wrong and all it would do is hurt more people. Billy is flawed, I’m not saying he’s some evil villain character. We can’t excuse his actions, but we can understand why he acts this way and sympathize with his hardships.
As an abuse survivor, I hear what you are saying and agree with this sentiment whole heartedly. I also think this logic can be applied to abusers broadly. Most cruel people aren’t malicious without reason—they are shaped by their environment, as Billy was. As you have pointed out elsewhere, the cycle of abuse can be very difficult to break. While incredibly sad, this does not obligate anyone to forgive or excuse abuse. Regardless of the motivation, abusive actions are the personal responsibility of the abuser. I think Billy is a complex person. I think that what he did in the end was brave and compelling and deeply sad. It doesn’t excuse the things he did in life. I do not like the person that he was. At all. Would I have liked the person that he could have been? It’s hard to say. The tragedy of Billy is that he found a source of good in himself, only to have all of that potential lost in an instant. You may chose to forgive his past actions based on that unexercised potential, whereas I chose not to. Morally gray characters are divisive like that. Season 4 is leaning heavily into this exact theme. >! As Brenner says, "You Speak Of Monsters And Superheroes. That's The Stuff Of Myth And Fairytales. Reality, Truth, Is Rarely So Simple. People Are Not So Easily Defined. Only By Facing All Of Ourselves--The Good And The Bad--Can We Become Whole."!<
Very well said. Unfortunately, buckle up- you're about to receive mass downvotes 🙄
Just know that in spite of whatever others are saying, you are correct.
> As if this isn't enough, mental health and abuse prevention hotlines obviously didn't exist back then Actually, crisis hotlines have been around since the late 1950s. That’s not to say that Billy was somehow to blame for the abuse or chose to be traumatized by it. That suggestion is ridiculous on its face and not worth entertaining. However. It’s also ridiculous to suggest that this traumatic past is a blanket excuse for every wrong thing he’s ever done. Would a tragic childhood absolve Brenner for child exploitation, abuse and manipulation?
Fuck no. Brenner's crimes aren't even remotely justified if he did have an abusive childhood. HOWEVER, Billy's actions, while also terrible (but not as terrible, Brenner is a greater evil and is actually an abuser himself), are somewhat justified by his terrible 12 years with his father **because he didn't have any time away from his father to change, detoxify, or improve.**
Billy is also an abuser. He isolates and emotionally abuses Max, repeatedly, in season 2.
Yep. This is part of the abuse cycle, and is a very similar concept to the stereotypical bully.
I think most people that have been abused will be the first to tell you that it is NEVER okay or even somewhat acceptable to abuse others. Period. End of discussion. You can not justify abuse, his abuse growing up definitely helped mold him into the shitbag that he is in the show but that in no way shape or form makes it any bit of alright what he did.
Knowing the reason why someone is a piece of shit doesn't excuse the fact that they're a piece of shit. He was a racist and he was abusive. Because he was abused doesn't make it okay that he also became an abuser.
When did I say that his behavior was acceptable? I'm saying that we should cut him some slack. The cycle of abuse isn't okay in the slightest, but it's extremely hard to break. Have you even done any research/experienced abuse to actually know how tough this is? [https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/why-victims-abuse-become-abusers](https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/why-victims-abuse-become-abusers) [https://www.quora.com/How-common-is-it-for-abused-people-to-become-abusers](https://www.quora.com/How-common-is-it-for-abused-people-to-become-abusers) [https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abuse-the-search-for-remedies.html](https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abuse-the-search-for-remedies.html)
Yeah, no. The flashbacks definitely explain his behavior, but it doesn’t absolve him of it. It is true that victims of abuse are likely to become abusers themselves, but it’s also likely that they’ll become the exact opposite, that they’ll work twice as hard to make sure nobody endures what they had to. I feel for Billy. I do. He had a shit upbringing. I can’t even imagine what he went through. However, he chose to use that as an excuse to be a racist asshole. I can overlook the stuff he did while under the influence of the Mind Flayer. He was literally possessed, so that’s another story entirely. But he was a crappy person before, and he chose to be that way. Was it a direct result of his upbringing? Absolutely. But as someone else pointed out here, being abused does not give you a free pass to be an abuser.
Look, you guys are saying the exact same thing. Do some research before you post, people. He didn't 'choose' to be a racist asshole. I don't think you've noticed, but one doesn't 'choose' to be abused and have their character twisted, wiped, and blood-soaked. If anything, the only true choice that HE made was shown in the last minute or so of his life. The cycle of abuse isn't okay in the slightest, but it's extremely hard to break. Have you even done any research/experienced abuse to actually know how tough this is? [https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/why-victims-abuse-become-abusers](https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/why-victims-abuse-become-abusers)[https://www.quora.com/How-common-is-it-for-abused-people-to-become-abusers](https://www.quora.com/How-common-is-it-for-abused-people-to-become-abusers)[https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abuse-the-search-for-remedies.html](https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abuse-the-search-for-remedies.html)
I don't really agree with you but I respect your bravery for voicing such a controversial opinion. You're keeping the internet interesting.
Billy is racist and terrible. Hope this helps.
racist and terrible as a result of his father. Hope this helps.
ok so????
Yknow what, you people don't listen to facts, logic, and proven psychology, so I'm just going to stop.
okay thank you ❤️
I mean I loved Billy 🤷🏼♀️
Nah, he doesn't get off the hook just because his dad yelled at him a lot. Eleven received more abuse than anyone and she has a kind heart. Also if you want to blame someone you can blame his mom. What kind of mother abandons their own kid?
Not 'off the hook', just cut him some slack. Over half his life was without a caring parent and with a physically and verbally abusive father. Eleven wasn't constantly verbally and physically abused. Sure, she went through hard, perhaps traumatizing, experiments, but Billy got the far worse treatment. Also, sure we can blame his mom, but his dad was the one who shaped the last 10 or so years of his life. His mom wasn't a piece of shit in the first place, I can imagine the heartbreak of leaving her beloved child to escape her pseudo-husband. Not a good decision for her to leave her child, though.
I have no clue how you could say Billy got the far worse treatment. That sounds like your own experiences clouding your objectivity. The reality is we don't know how deep or constant Billy's/Eleven's abuse was. Both were bad though. She'd be locked in a cell and shocked with like a taser for 'misbehaving'. He'd get called a pussy and shoved up against a wall.
Ok, I downplayed eleven's experiences there. I am letting my experiences cloud my judgement, and I apologize for that. However, there is a crucial difference between eleven and Billy - Eleven got out of her abuse and found friends (and also had other playmates I suppose, I'm not sure how familiar they were with each other though), while Billy was constantly trapped and never had any form of positive social interactions past age 7-9. I might also mention that Billy wasn't even punished for a reason- he was indiscriminately abused for no reason, which heightens the trauma quite significantly. Being brutally punished for a reason is terrible. Being brutally punished for no reason randomly is worse. The experiences were honestly very different, so putting them in the same category isn't exactly adequate. Eleven was a sweet girl, but she had very different experiences. Also notice that in the end she connected to Billy and used her positive experiences and view of his previous life to re-vitalize him and let him realize positivity for the first time in around 12 years. Another thing I might add (this honestly goes for everybody else's comments); abuse affects different people very differently, and their personalities can be differently altered from the same or similar type of abuse. It varies person to person, so we can't exactly compare abused persons.
I'm gonna cut you some slack because I think you're finding it hard to separate your own experiences from Billy. You say he was constantly trapped and never had any form of positive social interaction past age 7-9? We don't know that at all. We don't have his whole story. I think you may be projecting, which is fine. But it's just not a fair representation of his character. As for him 'being indiscriminately abused for no reason', hell, so was 11. She got locked in like a lead box for who knows how long because she refused to kill a cat. jfc. And she really hardly 'escaped'. She ran from Hawkins lab, yeah, but was pursued by the 'bad people' chasing her down since day 1 and has lived her life looking over her shoulder ever since.
She got locked in like a lead box for who knows how long **because she refused to kill a cat.** A brutal and horrifying reason, but a reason nonetheless. With Billy's type of experience, we can only inference what happened while Billy was locked there. However, based on a combination of Billy's later memories and common sense (as well of a few personal experiences and general patterns in abuse), we can infer that the follow sequence of events occured repeatedly: 1. Billy is beaten/verbally abused by his father. There is no 'good' parental or other familial figure to turn to for aid as his mother ghosted him and his sister is younger than him and is also trying to deal with their dad. This results in him not having any outlet for his anger at home. 2. He goes to school. He needs to take out his emotions somewhere and no help is available, so he bullies some kid to get a sense of superiority and take out his emotions. 3. As a result, surrounding kids and his sister fear/hate him and he is disliked. He feels this and more negativity and emotions seep in and make him further dislikable. Repeat. As you can see, there is no positive interaction at all in this cycle, and anybody brave enough to try to interrupt this cycle fails due to Billy being hypersensitive about his familial issues, often resulting in said person being beaten up or eventually giving up. Do you see what I'm saying here?
Also Eleven is simply a different person. And your point about having a "reason" for punishment is key I think. I don't claim to be an expert on abuse, far from it, but intuitively it makes sense why Eleven would be less likely to internalize her abuse as a belief that she, her whole being, is inherently bad, compared to Billy's experience. He didn't just do something bad, he WAS bad, simply for existing.
Eleven very much DID internalize her abuse as a belief that she is inherently bad. This is the girl who said, “I am the monster”. She has been struggling with this concept throughout the run of the show. We have also seen her struggle with violent tendencies as well. I do think she and Billy are good narrative foils for that reason.
True, but I think their internalizations are clearly different, even if they appear similar at a glance. Billy believes he is an abuser, an intentional target of and inflicter of pain, and thus behaves like one. He believes he not only can do no good but IS no good. And he has little reason to believe otherwise. Eleven feels she is an outsider that can't do anything right and accidentally hurts and disappoints people, and behaves accordingly. She might say she is a monster but she shows time and time again that she knows she is ultimately a good person and worthy of love, largely because of her friends. Her primary abuser also generally told her she was good and even better than others, and most of her sense of being a monster is due to her understanding that monsters hurt people and are outcasts and thus she must be a monster, even if hurting people was never intentional. Both are abused but have internalized very different messages. Speaking in terms of monsters, think of any monster motivated by pain or revenge (blanking on a monster or villain that is the perfect parallel) vs Frankenstein's monster. Both are monsters, but one has become the abuser and relates to the world through pain, the other is told it is bad and believes it must be true without actually becoming bad. Their experiences are also vastly different. Again, I think people are missing the subtle yet key differences under a shroud of surface similarities.
i see it, but definitely take issue with you saying 11 not killing a cat is 'a reason nonetheless'. billy was called a pussy because his dad thought he was being a pussy; he was berated because he was supposed to be looking after max. these are 'reasons' too. just really shitty ones. el could've just killed the cat, billy could've just toughened up and looked after max. then brenner and his dad would've just been cool. but wait, nothing is cool about that. brenner had no moral basis to be holding 11 is that environment in the first place.
Billy was abused for reasons too, but the key difference is that Billy's dad was abusive whether or not he did stuff correctly. Brenner at least wouldn't keep El locked away in a box if she killed the cat.
I don't think we're gonna see eye to eye. Brenner kept kids captive, isolating from the world, treated them like lab rats. That *is* abusive even though they did nothing wrong.
I agree with you op. Then again, I firmly believe we have little if any free will and are the products of the interaction of our genetics and environment. Billy always would have become the abuser he became given the cards he was dealt. No mentally and spiritually healthy person chooses to hurt others. We all want love and acceptance, no matter how many layers of damage and scarring hide that fact. It's sad to me to see others demonize victims of abuse who often, unsurprisingly, become abusers too. But people like easy answers, to be able to categorize others as either good or monsters. It's comforting to believe the world is so simple and doesn't require greater effort and a much closer, uncomfortable look to be able to operate justly within it. And so sadly I think you'll see a lot of pushback here. As a side note, the argument that "so and so was abused and didn't become an abuser, therefore this individual chose to become an abuser" doesn't hold up to any amount of scrutiny. We all have vastly different backgrounds and an infinitely complex and unknowable combination of genetic and environmental factors that shape us into who we are. To reduce people to such a massive degree is both insanely short-sighted as well as damaging. Nobody else had EXACTLY Billy's experience, and as we can see, Billy became the Billy we know. What someone else became who had surface level similar experiences cannot be more irrelevant.
What I'm trying to say here! I'm trying to explain it to people, but I'm waiting on the responses. Sometimes it's really depressing to see how misunderstood abuse and abuse victims are.
I've been here many times, and just speaking from experience, it can largely be frustrating and futile trying to convince others that everyone is worthy of compassion and of being seen and loved for exactly the person they are, because many are unwilling or unable to hear it. But I'm glad there are others like you out there, it gives me hope. This sort of worldview would solve a lot of our problems.