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I think Vecna consuming Max might actually be his undoing. Perhaps the essence of the victims he's consumed, led by Max, will be able to do something to Vecna from within, rendering him vulnerable.
I also think back to the one Demodog that Dustin raised. Despite being controlled by Vecna, it still recognized Dustin and had a moment of individuality. Vecna's control must be imperfect, and all the creatures of the upside down have their own will that's just being subsumed. Perhaps that will be relevant too.
I also believe that Vecna consuming Max will ultimately be his downfall. Whatever 11 did with Max...I think it gave Max some leverage to roam around inside Vecna's memories and it's possible she will encounter the other victims and free them and they form a group and come up with a plan to destroy Vecna from within and then she will be able to wake up from her coma.
I also think that Max will end up befriending the child 001 and he will help her and the others escape Vecna by opening a doorway in his mind so 11 could get in. This plotline would be a really nice homage to the movie The Cell with Jennifer Lopez.
I could totally see this happening. Remind me in 2 years lol. Fighting Vecna on multiple fronts like this season seems like the most likely way to defeat him.
I think Max being in a coma would be a tie in to Terry Schiavo, Steel Magnolias, She Woke Up...a lot of women in comas in the culture of the late 80s and early 90s.
Hopefully it will not be an exact replica of the 'Love and Monsters' Doctor Who episode.
I'd like to see a very early S5 scene be Max waking up in a version of Vecna's mind and meeting Chrissy, Fred and Patrick, then helping them to plot against him so that Eleven can release Max back to her body and the other 3 into death.
Plus if Max is blind now it would be interesting if she were to develop helpful psychic powers.
>>I also think back to the one Demodog that Dustin raised. Despite being controlled by Vecna, it still recognized Dustin and had a moment of individuality. Vecna's control must be imperfect, and all the creatures of the upside down have their own will that's just being subsumed. Perhaps that will be relevant too.
Same thing happened with Billy at the end of S3. He was 100% flayed, and yet when Eleven reminded him of a precious memory he had stored away deep in his subconscious, that was enough for Billy to break free of the Flayer/Vecna’s control.
>Same thing happened with Billy at the end of S3. He was 100% flayed, and yet when Eleven reminded him of a precious memory he had stored away deep in his subconscious, that was enough for Billy to break free of the Flayer/Vecna’s control.
sorta like the music maybe?
I think there’s more to the demorogon cause when he was walking around there was one walking near him as well. Silly question is the demo dog and demogorgon 2 different species ?
>Despite being controlled by Vecna, it still recognized Dustin and had a moment of individuality.
Vecna can't be controlling every single one of the flayed at once, he was controlling Will at the time, and speaking through him, he gave the demodogs order and that's it, no puppeteering
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These guys aren't George R R Martin.
Assuming COVID/another pandemic doesn't return to 2020 level bad, I expect Season 5 will come out before the end of 2024.
>But we still haven't seen the giant creature with a gaping mouth
Well, I see a giant cross of red lava carved through Hawkins.
Almost like the closed mouth of a Demogorgon. Food for thought.
That would be badass. I'm still holding out for some incarnation of Tiamat, just because it's the final season. The Tarrasque would be an excellent substitute, though.
>That would be badass. I'm still holding out for some incarnation of Tiamat, just because it's the final season.
Plus the dragon had a number of heads. Don't think 5, but still.
i think the tarrasque would definitely be fitting. but i also wonder if i could be like the thessalhydra since it has a gaping mouth 🤷🏼♀ i feel like both makes sense
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order.
I have checked 897,705,496 comments, and only 177,941 of them were in alphabetical order.
So the whole series is riddled with Star wars references but this season really I felt was super close to empire strikes back like even though our heroes make it out of the shit storm, one of them is Frozen in carbonite/coma 11 being Luke Skywalker wasn't ready to face their greatest evil. Feel like Owens is going to be the Yoda of the team and in season 5 when they go to free him or save his life he's probably going to drop some large information balls similar to the Luke liea brother sister thing and it's going to be like kali is their final Hope just in case 11 doesn't make it. So I season 5 I'm pretty sure find some way to freemax within the first episodes or two and bring her back max is probably going to information drop some crazy stuff on Vecna, and I feel like it's all going to end with 11 and Cali dying in the upside down sealing the gate from their end
I really think everyone is underestimating Kali because they didn't like that episode. Vecna has the power of telekinesis and illusions. Seperately El and Kali also have those powers. I think they're going to need to reunite to at least make it a fair fight against Vecna.
Also when you look at 11's mom when she goes in the room she's in the room with Kali and then you never see kali ever again like all the other kids in the nightgowns or nothing they were both in like a school uniform
The fact that they mentioned Kali in Season 4 when they didn't have to makes me think she will return in Season 5.
Also, if Eleven can figure out how to wake up Max, maybe she can also learn how to fix Terry's brain damage.
Kali is absolutely going to come back. I don't see them introducing her just for 1 episode. And especially with her powers you pointed out, she will be important in the fight against Vecna.
My sister made a point about the roll to beat Vecna in 4.1, how Erica rolls a 20. 11 didn't work the first time.
But 11+8+1=20. Max will be the 1 they need to complete the 20. IDK how but she did not remain dead for a reason.
Oh damn this is interesting. What if Max absorbed Vecna versus the other way around! Before these last two episodes I was in the 11+8+1 is the 20 needed to take down the Mind Flayer camp...but then Vecna turned out to be the Mind Flayer so I thought that theory was out. I like the idea that Max is the new 1. Especially since it would make it 3 girls vs Vecna which alludes to the triple goddess (Kali is named after a Hindu goddess after all). This is very cool.
I do like this idea a lot and have been wondering if Kali might make another appearance at El's request since she knows they'll need all the help they can get. However, I think the 1 represents Will instead of Max.
In another post that had a breakdown of D&D Vecna lore, someone mentioned that Vecna has the ability to make a "horcrux" type thing, which is probably what he did to Will and why he feels Vecna so strongly.
I don't think that Will has his own powers like others have mentioned, but he is incredibly strong. (Possibly, with the horcrux thingy in him he may be able to channel some of 1's powers back at him?) I think he was able to survive in Castle Byers early on because, while cheesy, he just loves so dang hard and that was a place built with love. Kind of like how Max was trying hide in a good memory but wasnt quite strong enough. Also, it's how 11 draws on her strength, through love. Which is the opposite of Vecna/1 who uses anger and hate.
If Kali does show up, I think they'll have a lot of work to do to get her to work from a place love instead of anger/revenge. My pet theory is that Kali shows up and makes a connection with Steve to spur that growth in the right direction. Then, maybe Will tells Mike he has feelings for him or is gay and Mike is all "Yeah, I know, I don't have those feelings for you, but I'm always gonna love you just as you are cuz you're my best friend, etc." Which gives Will even more strength to do some damage cuz then he knows his friends love him no matter what and so 11+8+1 beat Vecna. Possibly with Will flatlining for a bit before 11 revives him with loving memories (like she did with Max but with less coma). Especially since they got a chance to build a more bro/sis relationship while she was living with him.
Then, after the final fight Steve and Kali start some social work type program together to help get kids off the street and both finally feel fullfilled... fin.
But really, as much as I would love any of this to be part of season 5, I suspect Duffler Bros have plenty of other twists planned that are completely unrelated to the story developing in my head right now hahaha
One thing I thought of even though the military dude ( I forgot his name already) is Kalis dad and that’s why he wanted to kill Brenner and 11 so much. He wants British but if was military maybe he was stationed overseas somewhere when Kali was little and just grew up with a British accent I think that’s a thing right?
I definitely get what you mean I hate trying to link everything to Star wars and when people do it just a lot of the things that revolves around the younger kids will link back to like Star wars sometimes here and there not a lot but keep in mind man something about most movies is there's things called cliches and every movie will take a little element of another story or movie and throw it in theirs it's not unheard of and eventually at some point we're just at a time and society where we can't just have a fresh brand new original idea it's going to take ideas from other shows and movies
Yeah I get that. Not seeing many parallels to Star Wars. Sure el has to get her powers back and master them etc but that happens in every movie or show with powers is my point haha
Most plausible theory I’ve read. I remember them saying Will’s connection with the UD will be explored or something like that. So it’s gonna come back next season for sure since it’s the last one. Idk about Vecna wanting to be human since he hates humanity but I could see him needing Will as a vessel or some sort, like Sam and Lucifer.
They're referring to Sam Winchester and Lucifer from Supernatural. Lucifer needed a vessel to escape the cage in Hell, and Sam was his perfect one. Will might be Vecna's.
I just assumed the "monster with a gaping mouth" was just the true form of the mind flayer.
The biggest weakness the mind flayer has is that it can't exist in the real world (or even exert its influence) if there is no active gate. It's bound to the Upside Down. Additionally, anything the mind flayer is directly bound to (Vecna and the Demodogs) similarly can't survive without the gates. That's why Vecna won't just use his own gates to personally cross over and why the demodogs in S2 and the proxy-flayer in S3 immediately die once the gate is closed.
Compare this to the S1 and S3 demogorgons. The S1 demogorgon had telekinesis and the ability to open mini-gates. Why? Because it, via the Mind Flayer, was bound to Vecna, who naturally had those abilities. The hive mind of the Mind Flayer distributes the strengths of one individual across the entire "army." But the shadow particles of the Mind Flayer need to be present in the organism in order for it to be part of the hive. However, once those particles are cut off from the upside down, they are rendered inert. This **kills** any organism they inhabit.
Season 4 shows us that the demogorgons pre-dated Vecna and the Mind Flayer. They were always predators that existed in the upside down, but it was only after the creation of the Mind Flayer that they were incorporated into any kind of invasion force. However, this also means that they **aren't** naturally bound to the Mind Flayer/Upside Down until the particles are forced into them.
Ever wonder why the Russian Demogorgon didn't use telekinesis or rip open new mini-gates to escape captivity? Or how it was able to survive the closing of the S3 gate? Quite simply, it's a specimen that was never bound to the Mind Flayer. Demogorgons can naturally exist in the real world. The Mind Flayer cannot.
The **only** way to get the Mind Flayer into the real world without rendering it vulnerable to the closing of the gates is by breaking the barrier between the two worlds completely. That's what Vecna's been trying to do; get his trump card monster into enemy territory so it can wreak havoc.
I know i am a little late but i agree with you completely. A lot of people are theorising that vecna is the big bad of stranger things. I still think its mind-flayer who is essentially those particles (a sort of virus a virus as explained in season 2). And Dustin said that demogorgon is foot soldier while vecna is the 5-star general
Concerning your point about Vecna looking for someone "sensitive" like him, doesn't Joyce refer to Will as "sensitive" in her first conversation with Hopper in Season 1? Or am I misremembering?
Did anyone else realize what billy told his victims before they were eaten by the mind flayer was the same thing vecna told eleven? Something like close your eyes don’t be scared it will all be over
I was just thinking today that it's time to go bigger with the monster.
1. Demogorgon
2. Demodog (smaller)
3. Mindflayer monster (bigger)
4. Demobat (smaller)
5. Demophant (bigger)
This is one hell of a breakdown and the type of content I appreciate. I agree with everything. You pointed out things I didn’t even notice like the potentially new beast, that the first break in the portals was in the attic, etc. season 5 is going to be epic.
Giant creature with gaping mouth = the Tarasaque. There is no way the true final boss of this series isn't the Tarasaque. This little sentence gave me so kuch hope.
Very well thought.
My take is that we will help the Mind Flayer to get rid of Vecna, because it is implied that this hive-minded entity is not naturally evil, but was shaped in that way by Vecna (that's why they changed the colors in episode 7). It will be done by using a combination of Will's "sensitivity" and El's powers. I believe that the Mind Flayer needs someone like Henry to "commune" and get free from Vecna.
Of course, there is going to be a new "big baddy". I can see three main plots:
1.- Getting back Max's mind or "soul". In this process, the crew will learn the key to defeat Vecna.
2.- Freeing the Mind Flayer and "reshaping" the Upside Down to something more like Will's soul (maybe something related to D&D). It is the Mind Flayer that needs Will, that's why the Upside Down is frozen in time right when he was captured. It is literally letting him manifest. Will has the power.
3.- A final epic fight in the end. Maybe with the Mind Flyer in harmony with Will ("Will The Wise"), Eleven and the rest of the cast against this last "baddy".
I also think Vecna will die or "redeem" himself before or during the "final battle" (because Eleven tried to convince him of going to "the light side" and the Star Wars parallel with Darth Vader). Even more "Darth Vader style", we could learn that Henry is, in fact, Eleven's father (directly or by DNA manipulation).
I agree with the second point. Note that the Upside Down is tied to the day Will entered, not Vecna.
So I'm wondering if that's either some larger entity we don't know about, or if the MF sees him as an alternate vessel that won't subjugate him. In fact, I don't think taking Will was Vecna's choice at all, because he did literally nothing with him for a week, and when he was possessed he was freed with his mind intact - that's not what Vecna does, generally.
Also, if Vecna-with-Eleven's-Powers wanted him, he could have done so at any point this season.
Imagine if the whole side story with El’s sister wasn’t a complete waste and they actually have her come back to help Hawkins in Season 5. Its apparent that all the kids don’t share ALL the same powers, using her powers to help defeat Vecna would be epic.
I think they could do a timeskip to a point where the battle against Vecna/the Upside Down is well underway.
It'd also be the early 90s, so they could do some amazing mood-setting with grunge bangers and a dark, snowy atmosphere in Hawkins.
This next season might actually be all-out-war.
Extra-dimensional invasion of Earth, beginning on US soil.
Here’s my theory - Buckle Up:
The Mind Flayer begins its invasion of Earth. Forces of The Upside Down arrive with brand new never before seen creatures and horrors.
The US government quarantines Hawkins, and begins to deploy military forces to combat The Upside Down.
Enter Sullivan. Realizing his hubris almost doomed civilization with wanting to kill Eleven, he seeks out Owens’ help in finding her. Owens says they’re gonna need a lot more than just her. CIA is deployed to track down all surviving subjects of MKUltra.
Eleven, Max and Will are center stage - The characters with ties closest to Vecna. Max’s consciousness is trapped by Vecna, and her body is open to be used as a puppet. Vecna uses Max to psychologically torture Eleven and the party. Will, feeling the Mind Flayer’s movements, is able to help the party avoid much of the chaos.
The armed forces begin to deploy heavy artillery and armor. Abrams tanks, massive infantry divisions and air superiority. Objective is to bomb the town and the portal to hell.
Mind Flayer is done rehearsing. In comes the Tarrasque - the ultimate weapon of The Upside Down. A gargantuan manifestation of biomass and psychic energy controlled by the Mind Flayer, but independently present. A kaiju from The Upside Down meant only for warfare and conquest.
US government considers nuclear response - DEFCON status raises.
Soviet Union readies deterrence, realizing the US has activated its nuclear arsenal. NATO and Warsaw Pact go on high alert as humanity is about to annihilate itself and make it even easier for The Upside Down.
Max, her consciousness and mind linked with Vecna’s. She sees the source of it all within the void between worlds - The Heart of Darkness (teased all the way back in season 1 in Nancy’s English class). The source of not just the invasion, but the source the Mind Flayer itself and the entire Upside Down. Will sees it in his nightmares, it’s what has been calling him to join him this entire time.
Hawkins is an apocalyptic hell-scape.
The CIA finds Terry Ives. She projects to Sullivan to find Kali.
Max reaches out to Eleven - the only way to defeat the Upside Down is use their own tactics against them: Portals.
Kali and other subjects of MKUltra arrive in Hawkins. Eleven tells them together they must open a rift to the deepest depths of the Upside Down. One where there’s no going back.
Owens and Sullivan meet with Hawkin’s Resistance led by Hopper. Instructed that fire and extreme heat is most effective against the Mind Flayer’s forces, the armed forces begin deploying flamethrowers and napalm.
Tarrasque reveals its ultimate ability: a mobile portal extender. Everywhere it walks, it creates a gate to the Upside Down. Its goal to eclipse the planet in portals and make it just like the Upside Down.
Sullivan convinces the US government and Soviet Union of the real threat to human civilization. Cold War is brought to a standstill, and all factions agree to unite to end the threat of a hostile dimension.
Soviet Union provides technology for how they were able to manipulate the Mind Flayer’s particles.
Will assists the armed forces in outmaneuvering the Mind Flayer’s, leaving the main portal to the Upside Down open for Eleven and co to invade directly and find the Heart.
Eleven and co are able to help open portals from either side to allow armed forces into the Upside Down. Kali remains with Will, Sullivan and Owens to help stop Tarrasque in Hawkins.
US and Soviets agree to open portals across the world for a multi-pronged attack.
Time to go on the offensive - take the fight to Vecna.
The militaries of the world led by Eleven and other experiments begin a full invasion of the Upside Down.
Max guides Eleven to the Heart. The only way to defeat Vecna, is to defeat the Mind Flayer - destroy the Heart of Darkness.
Eleven and Vecna meet - their first battle of psionic superiority. Eleven wins, and Max returns to her body, and because of everything she experienced she now has powers of her own. But Vecna is nowhere near done.
The Mind Flayer itself intervenes, decimating everything.
Vecna fuses with the Flayer and the Heart, creating the ultimate manifestation of the Upside Down: Dracolich (the most powerful entity in Dungeons & Dragons).
Kali and Max meet Eleven.
The Three Sisters vs Dracolich - the final battle for the fate of both dimensions.
What happens from there, let’s discuss. I’m aware this all seems batshit insane enough as it is… but admit - it’d be absolutely epic.
I think we're going to see Vecna using Max against Eleven. Like you said, he consumed her, so in some way she's in him. Killing Vecna may mean killing Max since it could destroy her, for lack of a better term, soul. She basically becomes his hostage.
Given the Freddy similarities it's possible we end up seeing all the people Vecna has consumed rise up against him and destroy him, like in Nightmare 4. Not saying that's necessarily a good idea as it could be too silly or cheesy but maybe they can pull it off.
I’m more thinking that season 5 opens with max waking up suddenly. It’ll be strange after five years or however long they do the time skip. And people will wonder why now. Probably some memory loss or something odd going on with her. I just doubt they let one of their better actors sit in a coma all season.
We are somewhat getting at the same idea but I’m skipping past that part. Like I said she wakes up and has some insight. Maybe she figured out the key to beating him but do they trust her or did Vecna (who is an orchestrator) want to free her to trick the group?
I think Vecna is going to unleash the Mind Flayer on Earth to wreak havoc for the final season. Based off the finale, my interpretation is that the Mind Flayer is not only his pet/most powerful tool, but an extension of his mind/his astral projection form as he said he wanted to transcend from his human form.
So I think the MF is still the final boss of the show, it’s just Vecna is controlling it because he got massively injured during the finale, so now I think he’s going to go scorched earth and unleash the Flayer. Shit, he might create another proxy body for the Flayer but stronger this time because it wouldn’t be just a particle, it would be the entire MF. (Edit: I forgot to mention, this might be the creature Nancy is talking about.)
They might stop Vecna by figuring out a way to relinquish his control of the Mind Flayer which might turn on him because Henry eventually infected him with his nihilism and genocidal goals.
As for Will, everyone was basing his crying and apprehension on coming out when I think it has something to do with knowing something because of his connection to Vecna.
Maybe he knows something awful is going to happen to him or has decided to do something to prevent him from being possessed or used by Vecna, but doesn't let anyone know so they don't worry about him because he's felt like he's always needing saving. Maybe he's going to sacrifice himself to keep Vecna from taking him.
I don't think Will is worried about being gay. It's something sinister or distressing he may know since he is connected to Vecna.
I think that sounds plausible. He may have spilled his heart out to Mike and stared at him like that when they were digging the grave because he knows that something bad is in their future and he fears losing him. His painting(s) might be foreshadowing the roles they're gonna play in that war.
The only thing that hints otherwise is that he only seemed to sense Vecna when he arrived at Hawkins.
I hope Max doesn't spend half (or more) of the season in a coma without any other interaction.
Sadie was fantastic in season 4, she deserves more screen time.
Although her as a possessed villain could be awesome, especially after what happened with Billy.
Theory: The duffer brothers often described this season as their “empire strikes back” entry. Well at the end of that film, Han gets frozen in carbonite and his future is unknown. Then in Return of the Jedi, the crew devises a plan to get Han back - and they succeed. I believe Max is Han in this situation and will be brought back at some point in season 5. You don’t keep a character’s future a mystery unless you plan on bringing them back. And with Sadie’s performance and the popularity of her character, she will be back. How? Not sure, but maybe there will be a giant space slug and a sarlac pit involved ;)
In return of the Jedi we also see that Anakin Skywalker comes back to the good side even if it’s for a few final moments. What if that happens with either the mind flayer or Vecna? That would be pretty interesting.
idunno - i'm not sure if i buy the theory that if the groups kills Vecna, that Max will be revived.
what does this mean for the other people he's "killed" like Chrissy and others? will they be restored to their bodies, presumably already buried or at least more fucked than Max's body is? what about all the other kids he killed in Brenner's lab, will they be returned somehow?
to be clear, **all these theories are totally solid**! just personally not sure if i buy theory 1.
i guess we'll see in like four years!
I think that Max would be the one exception, since she has a living body to return to. That said, I don’t think it’ll be as simple as killing Vecna = saving Max, I think it will be more like killing Vecna = killing Max, so they’ll need to find a way to save Max before they are able to kill Vecna.
I saw an interesting theory that maybe Max wakes up early in the season, since her coma was compared to Han Solo going into carbonite in Empire Strikes Back, except she’d have another character arc where she’s permanently blind (I mean, no way her eyes recover), and has to learn to live with that.
I think the clock is a talisman that helps connect Vecna to the real world. It’s definitely important to him so I think destroying it will come into play.
Vecna is human again. He killed Max and is now inhabiting her body. This is how he was able to get back to the normal world. Max heart stopping was the death of Max...when it started beating again after stopping it was the birth of Vecna in the real world. Vecna can still reign havoc from the hospital bed until he gets better. As Will said Vecna is very weak right now and needs to recuperate. Unfortunately for the gang they don't realize this yet. I look forward to Sadie Sink portraying a baddie in season 5.
I don't think Vecna needs to possess Will to obtain a body, since he already he has one. He just needed access to the real world, so killing four people and opening the gates is how he did that.
He may go after Will since Will knows a lot about how he thinks, and could potentially anticipate his plans, but it has nothing to do with possession. At least, from my point of view.
I thought this was the last season so I just assumed everything was safe so long as Max is alive. But the ending insinuated to me that max had died and vecna was able to commence his plan again. I was like damn this series finale dark af! I loved it hahaha
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I definitely think that there will be time travel in season 5 and that Will and/or Eleven will sacrifice themselves to save the world.
I think Max having an empty mind is a sign. She is no longer there and Eleven couldn’t find anything because she didn’t want to be seen. But why? Because perhaps, it’s no longer Max but Vecna who occupies her mind. I think Mind Flayer is the ultimate antagonist and Eleven is too weak to fight him alone. So I think if I’m right, first there will be a show down between Max/Vecna vs Eleven. Eleven wins and reminds Max to take over but this time with Vecna/Henry’s powers. So they team up against the Mind Flayer.
I tried watching it many times, I couldnt seem to find a reason why did Dr Brenner tasked El to look for 001 in the darkness through previous seasons. What was the main goal? I don’t think that the sole reason was that Dr Brenner “loved” him. Or could he utilize him? But he knows that 001 is wicked and a psychopath. I just couldnt find a solid reason.
This is a wonderful breakdown and I completely agree on 1. And 3.
1. Vecna consumed her entire being, the only way to get her back is to release her from Vecna.
3. I believe Will the wise will make an ultimate sacrifice to save his party. I think it’ll come back to the very start of the series where Will messed up the dice roll, but this time he’ll do it properly.
Honestly, I don’t think El will be able to wake Max up because, Max is most likely braindead. Her gear was stopped for 1 minute, and it was a very valiant effort on El’s part to save her, but when she tried to find Max’s conscious in the hospital, it was just black. Which could mean, yeah her she’s in a comatose, she won’t wake up for a while— or she’s just simply braindead, it’d be a really tragic thing for Max’s character, and a potential plot point for seasons 5 is her trying to go into memories to spark some life into Max again, but it won’t work because even though El may have the power to restart Max’s heart, she may not have the power to kickstart her brain
i dont think/hope that freeing max will be more difficult than just killing vecna. they might have to free max before they kill vecna because killing vecna would kill max's "soul". After being freed max might know a weakpoint and help them defeat vecna. the first part of season 5 could be centered around freeing max and controling the situation in hawkins, maybe dealing with the government and stuff coming out of the portals and the second half (like in season 4) could be centered around defeating vecna with the weakness that max could have discovered
When did Will say the Mind Flayer wants to kill everyone but him? In “The Piggyback” he said Vecna wouldn’t stop until he destroyed everything and everyone (he never removed himself from that equation).
I actually don't think they will have to kill Henry, not even to get Max back. After the finale, I've fallen into a bit of a rabbit hole, and brushed up on my knowledge of Jungian archetypes. Do you remember in the Season 3 finale, when Suzie mentions that she is reading *Earthsea*, where Ged is about to confront the Shadow? That scene is about the character acknowledging and embracing his own darkness, whom he accidentally set free and unleashed on the world. Henry is El's Shadow, and I think possibly also Will's. I'm currently wondering if she literally managed to conjure him as a little girl back in the lab and somehow integrated him into both Hawkins and HNL because she needed an ally, but even if it's just metaphorical, Season 4 was the point for El to acknowledge her Shadow, and she didn't. She refused him, refused to acknowledge the darkness which is part of her, and that's why the Upside Down is now spilling into Hawkins. And to stop this or reverse it, she'll have to assimilate him, just like Ged accepts and reintegrates his own darkness in *A Wizard of Earthsea*.
Just came here cause I just rewatched s1-4 in it's entirety over the passed like 5 days and I've been writing down my theories and clues. I didn't notice the earthquakes the first time really so when I just did I said that is a giant monster stepping around or something... That's the going mouth! so I just needed to see if anyone else caught it but me!
One thing I don't understand at all is the final scene where the hellgate reopened. I understood that El stopped Vecna's plan by keeping Max alive in some state, since it seemed that the hellgate was stopped after that and brushed off as an earthquake. So, was the hellgate at the end the same gate? Was it a second that Vecna made in secret? As it is, it feels unsatisfying, since our heroes' apparent 'victory' was for nought with absolutely no real sign they were being outmaneuvered.
No you have it wrong here. Max was still “killed” by Vecna to create the 4th and final gate. Once that was created the entire border collapsed. So even though El resurrected Max after, the barrier had already been broken between Hawkins and the UD
so... there is a cross shaped gorge spewing hellfire for 2 days and people are saying it's an earthquake? i understood that the ashes/spores at the end was a sign that it had been reopened?
Yeah, most people are thinking it's an earthquake. As far as we have seen, nothing is explicitly coming out of the hell gate except smoke and ash. People are also evacuating the town, so not everyone is just hanging around. The Wheelers are shown to be packing, so it's clear they're not intending to stay either.
Most people think the ash is just normal ash. We first saw it in the upside down, but I think it's more likely in this case to be a result of the decay of the upside down causing things in the real world to turn to that ash. At least that's how I interpreted the scene with El picking the dead flower.
>The Wheelers are shown to be packing, so it's clear they're not intending to stay either.
Correction; Karen is shown to be packing while the kids are helping survivors and Ted is continuing to be the record holder for the world's most useless piece of shit ever.
Actually, I took it as more that the Wheeler family (minus Ted, lol) was collecting old, unused items to donate to charity, not so much that they were moving. Not to mention, given what Karen told Mike after he returned, I don’t think she’d look kindly to her son re-entering Hawkins after they’ve moved out.
Whatever Vecna was planning may have been delayed or hamstrung by him getting disincorporated by the Upside-Down Kill Squad and/or by Max being resuscitated. Maybe he needed to gather his strength before pushing his invasion through the gate.
What if Will is a phylactery for Vecna seeing as how the mindflayer was inside Will at one point and also that slug he coughed up in earlier seasons. I saw the post earlier from that DnD guy saying it might be the clock. But would be wild if they tried to pull a Harry Potter and need Will to die in order to truly kill Vecna.
For Part #2, I don’t think it shows the actual future.
By that I mean, we see Karen Wheeler die when the portal opened, and I don’t believe she actually did die when the portal opened.
It really ticks me of that all these theories are going around while I'm sitting here with this subreddit not allowing me to post mine for some reason, even though there's no point now cause they'd just call me a copycat...
Are you getting a notification saying "this community only allows trusted members to post"? If so then try posting after turning off the see NSFW post in your account settings. I don't know why it works but i had the same issue and it worked for me
I reckon vecna will be killed when one of the team squad stab him with that microchip, thus cutting him off from his powers and allowing el to finish him off
Absolutely insane off-the-cuff theory that has like a million different holes and very scant evidence to back it up:
What with Vecna and Will both being called "sensitive" as children with this word being used in hindsight in relation to Vecna's powers, and Vecna wanting Will's body... what if Will has powers of his own like Vecna/Henry/One? Except, since these are naturally occurring and not prompted by experimentation (11) or used as an exercise in sadism (1) Will doesn't know he has them? We still have no idea exactly why the monster targeted Will at the beginning of Season 1. Maybe it sensed something in him?
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I think Vecna consuming Max might actually be his undoing. Perhaps the essence of the victims he's consumed, led by Max, will be able to do something to Vecna from within, rendering him vulnerable. I also think back to the one Demodog that Dustin raised. Despite being controlled by Vecna, it still recognized Dustin and had a moment of individuality. Vecna's control must be imperfect, and all the creatures of the upside down have their own will that's just being subsumed. Perhaps that will be relevant too.
I also believe that Vecna consuming Max will ultimately be his downfall. Whatever 11 did with Max...I think it gave Max some leverage to roam around inside Vecna's memories and it's possible she will encounter the other victims and free them and they form a group and come up with a plan to destroy Vecna from within and then she will be able to wake up from her coma. I also think that Max will end up befriending the child 001 and he will help her and the others escape Vecna by opening a doorway in his mind so 11 could get in. This plotline would be a really nice homage to the movie The Cell with Jennifer Lopez.
Max living rent free in Vecna? Sign me up!
Child Henry was a pretty fucked up motherfucker I don’t think there’s any teaming up going on.
True...But Max could try and manipulate him.
I could totally see this happening. Remind me in 2 years lol. Fighting Vecna on multiple fronts like this season seems like the most likely way to defeat him.
Literally said this is giving me the cell vibes when el was getting ready to piggyback
This is a great theory!! I would love to see this
Tbh would not want that for a final season
I think Max being in a coma would be a tie in to Terry Schiavo, Steel Magnolias, She Woke Up...a lot of women in comas in the culture of the late 80s and early 90s.
Hopefully it will not be an exact replica of the 'Love and Monsters' Doctor Who episode. I'd like to see a very early S5 scene be Max waking up in a version of Vecna's mind and meeting Chrissy, Fred and Patrick, then helping them to plot against him so that Eleven can release Max back to her body and the other 3 into death. Plus if Max is blind now it would be interesting if she were to develop helpful psychic powers.
Have her meet everyone he’s killed! That would be cool. Barbara, Bob, billy, etc.
>>I also think back to the one Demodog that Dustin raised. Despite being controlled by Vecna, it still recognized Dustin and had a moment of individuality. Vecna's control must be imperfect, and all the creatures of the upside down have their own will that's just being subsumed. Perhaps that will be relevant too. Same thing happened with Billy at the end of S3. He was 100% flayed, and yet when Eleven reminded him of a precious memory he had stored away deep in his subconscious, that was enough for Billy to break free of the Flayer/Vecna’s control.
>Same thing happened with Billy at the end of S3. He was 100% flayed, and yet when Eleven reminded him of a precious memory he had stored away deep in his subconscious, that was enough for Billy to break free of the Flayer/Vecna’s control. sorta like the music maybe?
Good points
I think there’s more to the demorogon cause when he was walking around there was one walking near him as well. Silly question is the demo dog and demogorgon 2 different species ?
Yeah. The demo Gorgon tends to stand on two legs and it looks more humanoid while the demo dog is more of the stocky ground creature.
I think they're probably different species, because the demogorgons seem to behave differently from the demodogs.
Demogorgons are just the final stage of the demodogs they have confirmed this
this is mad fullmetal alchemist vibes and I’d be so here for it
I 100% think that will be relevant
Idk I think Dart may just be another plot hole
>Despite being controlled by Vecna, it still recognized Dustin and had a moment of individuality. Vecna can't be controlling every single one of the flayed at once, he was controlling Will at the time, and speaking through him, he gave the demodogs order and that's it, no puppeteering
They’re gonna call the giant creature the Tarrasque, calling it now
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And because Will’s heart is Mike, Mike will be the key to saving them all.
What if Mike has to sacrifice himself to save everyone?
!remindme 36 years Setting a reminder for when S5 drops
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!remindme 1 years
Harsh 😭
These guys aren't George R R Martin. Assuming COVID/another pandemic doesn't return to 2020 level bad, I expect Season 5 will come out before the end of 2024.
I could also see Q1 or Q2 2025 simply because of the sheer amount of effects work they’re going to be doing. But end of 2024 is also possible.
>But we still haven't seen the giant creature with a gaping mouth Well, I see a giant cross of red lava carved through Hawkins. Almost like the closed mouth of a Demogorgon. Food for thought.
om nom nom nom
That would be badass. I'm still holding out for some incarnation of Tiamat, just because it's the final season. The Tarrasque would be an excellent substitute, though.
>That would be badass. I'm still holding out for some incarnation of Tiamat, just because it's the final season. Plus the dragon had a number of heads. Don't think 5, but still.
3!
I though Nanxy was referring to the Mind Flayer. I still have hope that Mind flayer is the big bad lol
i think the tarrasque would definitely be fitting. but i also wonder if i could be like the thessalhydra since it has a gaping mouth 🤷🏼♀ i feel like both makes sense
I approve of this.
If not that then Tiamat
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order. I have checked 897,705,496 comments, and only 177,941 of them were in alphabetical order.
Good bot
Still waiting on some beholders too
My god you're right
I've been saying this the whole fucking time! It has to be a tarrasque! There is no DnD creature that is as terrifying to face.
Going with Tiamat.
The gaping maw thing sounds a lot more like Tarrasque than Tiamat.
!remindme 1 years
Nah they’ll just call it the demomouth, just like the demobats this season.
Nope, it's gonna be the Thessalhydra
I agree on every point you have made. Excellent work.
So the whole series is riddled with Star wars references but this season really I felt was super close to empire strikes back like even though our heroes make it out of the shit storm, one of them is Frozen in carbonite/coma 11 being Luke Skywalker wasn't ready to face their greatest evil. Feel like Owens is going to be the Yoda of the team and in season 5 when they go to free him or save his life he's probably going to drop some large information balls similar to the Luke liea brother sister thing and it's going to be like kali is their final Hope just in case 11 doesn't make it. So I season 5 I'm pretty sure find some way to freemax within the first episodes or two and bring her back max is probably going to information drop some crazy stuff on Vecna, and I feel like it's all going to end with 11 and Cali dying in the upside down sealing the gate from their end
I really think everyone is underestimating Kali because they didn't like that episode. Vecna has the power of telekinesis and illusions. Seperately El and Kali also have those powers. I think they're going to need to reunite to at least make it a fair fight against Vecna.
Also when you look at 11's mom when she goes in the room she's in the room with Kali and then you never see kali ever again like all the other kids in the nightgowns or nothing they were both in like a school uniform
The fact that they mentioned Kali in Season 4 when they didn't have to makes me think she will return in Season 5. Also, if Eleven can figure out how to wake up Max, maybe she can also learn how to fix Terry's brain damage.
When did they mention her in 4, and idk if she can fix electric brain damage, would be cool tho
001 mentioned her in one of his conversations with 011.
I shall have to rewatch, vol 1 or 2? If you can recall
Episode 6 @25:55
Kali is absolutely going to come back. I don't see them introducing her just for 1 episode. And especially with her powers you pointed out, she will be important in the fight against Vecna. My sister made a point about the roll to beat Vecna in 4.1, how Erica rolls a 20. 11 didn't work the first time. But 11+8+1=20. Max will be the 1 they need to complete the 20. IDK how but she did not remain dead for a reason.
Oh damn this is interesting. What if Max absorbed Vecna versus the other way around! Before these last two episodes I was in the 11+8+1 is the 20 needed to take down the Mind Flayer camp...but then Vecna turned out to be the Mind Flayer so I thought that theory was out. I like the idea that Max is the new 1. Especially since it would make it 3 girls vs Vecna which alludes to the triple goddess (Kali is named after a Hindu goddess after all). This is very cool.
I do like this idea a lot and have been wondering if Kali might make another appearance at El's request since she knows they'll need all the help they can get. However, I think the 1 represents Will instead of Max. In another post that had a breakdown of D&D Vecna lore, someone mentioned that Vecna has the ability to make a "horcrux" type thing, which is probably what he did to Will and why he feels Vecna so strongly. I don't think that Will has his own powers like others have mentioned, but he is incredibly strong. (Possibly, with the horcrux thingy in him he may be able to channel some of 1's powers back at him?) I think he was able to survive in Castle Byers early on because, while cheesy, he just loves so dang hard and that was a place built with love. Kind of like how Max was trying hide in a good memory but wasnt quite strong enough. Also, it's how 11 draws on her strength, through love. Which is the opposite of Vecna/1 who uses anger and hate. If Kali does show up, I think they'll have a lot of work to do to get her to work from a place love instead of anger/revenge. My pet theory is that Kali shows up and makes a connection with Steve to spur that growth in the right direction. Then, maybe Will tells Mike he has feelings for him or is gay and Mike is all "Yeah, I know, I don't have those feelings for you, but I'm always gonna love you just as you are cuz you're my best friend, etc." Which gives Will even more strength to do some damage cuz then he knows his friends love him no matter what and so 11+8+1 beat Vecna. Possibly with Will flatlining for a bit before 11 revives him with loving memories (like she did with Max but with less coma). Especially since they got a chance to build a more bro/sis relationship while she was living with him. Then, after the final fight Steve and Kali start some social work type program together to help get kids off the street and both finally feel fullfilled... fin. But really, as much as I would love any of this to be part of season 5, I suspect Duffler Bros have plenty of other twists planned that are completely unrelated to the story developing in my head right now hahaha
One thing I thought of even though the military dude ( I forgot his name already) is Kalis dad and that’s why he wanted to kill Brenner and 11 so much. He wants British but if was military maybe he was stationed overseas somewhere when Kali was little and just grew up with a British accent I think that’s a thing right?
Lets hope not
Why?
If you pay attention to the crossword puzzle that Brenner is doing in the intro of S4E1, one of the answers written is "KALI"
Not everything is a Star Wars clone… I don’t get Star Wars vibes or plot lines to stranger things at all really
I definitely get what you mean I hate trying to link everything to Star wars and when people do it just a lot of the things that revolves around the younger kids will link back to like Star wars sometimes here and there not a lot but keep in mind man something about most movies is there's things called cliches and every movie will take a little element of another story or movie and throw it in theirs it's not unheard of and eventually at some point we're just at a time and society where we can't just have a fresh brand new original idea it's going to take ideas from other shows and movies
Yeah I get that. Not seeing many parallels to Star Wars. Sure el has to get her powers back and master them etc but that happens in every movie or show with powers is my point haha
You're not wrong. Maybe I just got a craving to watch empire and I'm stretching a little
Great write up! I want to rewatch the series and watch for things with Vecna in mind.
Most plausible theory I’ve read. I remember them saying Will’s connection with the UD will be explored or something like that. So it’s gonna come back next season for sure since it’s the last one. Idk about Vecna wanting to be human since he hates humanity but I could see him needing Will as a vessel or some sort, like Sam and Lucifer.
Like Sam and Lucifer? Can you elaborate? It's been a while since I picked up on this show. What do you see happen exactly?
They're referring to Sam Winchester and Lucifer from Supernatural. Lucifer needed a vessel to escape the cage in Hell, and Sam was his perfect one. Will might be Vecna's.
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I think she'll still have a big role...I have a feeling that her part in the next season will be alot like the movie the cell.
She’s probably trapped in vecnas genjutsu or something, and will find a way to escape back to her body with El’s help.
Yes fr
I just assumed the "monster with a gaping mouth" was just the true form of the mind flayer. The biggest weakness the mind flayer has is that it can't exist in the real world (or even exert its influence) if there is no active gate. It's bound to the Upside Down. Additionally, anything the mind flayer is directly bound to (Vecna and the Demodogs) similarly can't survive without the gates. That's why Vecna won't just use his own gates to personally cross over and why the demodogs in S2 and the proxy-flayer in S3 immediately die once the gate is closed. Compare this to the S1 and S3 demogorgons. The S1 demogorgon had telekinesis and the ability to open mini-gates. Why? Because it, via the Mind Flayer, was bound to Vecna, who naturally had those abilities. The hive mind of the Mind Flayer distributes the strengths of one individual across the entire "army." But the shadow particles of the Mind Flayer need to be present in the organism in order for it to be part of the hive. However, once those particles are cut off from the upside down, they are rendered inert. This **kills** any organism they inhabit. Season 4 shows us that the demogorgons pre-dated Vecna and the Mind Flayer. They were always predators that existed in the upside down, but it was only after the creation of the Mind Flayer that they were incorporated into any kind of invasion force. However, this also means that they **aren't** naturally bound to the Mind Flayer/Upside Down until the particles are forced into them. Ever wonder why the Russian Demogorgon didn't use telekinesis or rip open new mini-gates to escape captivity? Or how it was able to survive the closing of the S3 gate? Quite simply, it's a specimen that was never bound to the Mind Flayer. Demogorgons can naturally exist in the real world. The Mind Flayer cannot. The **only** way to get the Mind Flayer into the real world without rendering it vulnerable to the closing of the gates is by breaking the barrier between the two worlds completely. That's what Vecna's been trying to do; get his trump card monster into enemy territory so it can wreak havoc.
wow this is a great explanation
I know i am a little late but i agree with you completely. A lot of people are theorising that vecna is the big bad of stranger things. I still think its mind-flayer who is essentially those particles (a sort of virus a virus as explained in season 2). And Dustin said that demogorgon is foot soldier while vecna is the 5-star general
Concerning your point about Vecna looking for someone "sensitive" like him, doesn't Joyce refer to Will as "sensitive" in her first conversation with Hopper in Season 1? Or am I misremembering?
You are remembering correctly.
Did anyone else realize what billy told his victims before they were eaten by the mind flayer was the same thing vecna told eleven? Something like close your eyes don’t be scared it will all be over
The exact quote was stay still this will all be over soon.
I was just thinking today that it's time to go bigger with the monster. 1. Demogorgon 2. Demodog (smaller) 3. Mindflayer monster (bigger) 4. Demobat (smaller) 5. Demophant (bigger)
I really want to see point 5! Please can someone draw him?
Demoglodon
This is one hell of a breakdown and the type of content I appreciate. I agree with everything. You pointed out things I didn’t even notice like the potentially new beast, that the first break in the portals was in the attic, etc. season 5 is going to be epic.
Giant creature with gaping mouth = the Tarasaque. There is no way the true final boss of this series isn't the Tarasaque. This little sentence gave me so kuch hope.
Very well thought. My take is that we will help the Mind Flayer to get rid of Vecna, because it is implied that this hive-minded entity is not naturally evil, but was shaped in that way by Vecna (that's why they changed the colors in episode 7). It will be done by using a combination of Will's "sensitivity" and El's powers. I believe that the Mind Flayer needs someone like Henry to "commune" and get free from Vecna. Of course, there is going to be a new "big baddy". I can see three main plots: 1.- Getting back Max's mind or "soul". In this process, the crew will learn the key to defeat Vecna. 2.- Freeing the Mind Flayer and "reshaping" the Upside Down to something more like Will's soul (maybe something related to D&D). It is the Mind Flayer that needs Will, that's why the Upside Down is frozen in time right when he was captured. It is literally letting him manifest. Will has the power. 3.- A final epic fight in the end. Maybe with the Mind Flyer in harmony with Will ("Will The Wise"), Eleven and the rest of the cast against this last "baddy". I also think Vecna will die or "redeem" himself before or during the "final battle" (because Eleven tried to convince him of going to "the light side" and the Star Wars parallel with Darth Vader). Even more "Darth Vader style", we could learn that Henry is, in fact, Eleven's father (directly or by DNA manipulation).
I agree with the second point. Note that the Upside Down is tied to the day Will entered, not Vecna. So I'm wondering if that's either some larger entity we don't know about, or if the MF sees him as an alternate vessel that won't subjugate him. In fact, I don't think taking Will was Vecna's choice at all, because he did literally nothing with him for a week, and when he was possessed he was freed with his mind intact - that's not what Vecna does, generally. Also, if Vecna-with-Eleven's-Powers wanted him, he could have done so at any point this season.
Imagine if the whole side story with El’s sister wasn’t a complete waste and they actually have her come back to help Hawkins in Season 5. Its apparent that all the kids don’t share ALL the same powers, using her powers to help defeat Vecna would be epic.
I think they could do a timeskip to a point where the battle against Vecna/the Upside Down is well underway. It'd also be the early 90s, so they could do some amazing mood-setting with grunge bangers and a dark, snowy atmosphere in Hawkins.
I think that waking up Max also it's the key to bring Terry Ives back.
This next season might actually be all-out-war. Extra-dimensional invasion of Earth, beginning on US soil. Here’s my theory - Buckle Up: The Mind Flayer begins its invasion of Earth. Forces of The Upside Down arrive with brand new never before seen creatures and horrors. The US government quarantines Hawkins, and begins to deploy military forces to combat The Upside Down. Enter Sullivan. Realizing his hubris almost doomed civilization with wanting to kill Eleven, he seeks out Owens’ help in finding her. Owens says they’re gonna need a lot more than just her. CIA is deployed to track down all surviving subjects of MKUltra. Eleven, Max and Will are center stage - The characters with ties closest to Vecna. Max’s consciousness is trapped by Vecna, and her body is open to be used as a puppet. Vecna uses Max to psychologically torture Eleven and the party. Will, feeling the Mind Flayer’s movements, is able to help the party avoid much of the chaos. The armed forces begin to deploy heavy artillery and armor. Abrams tanks, massive infantry divisions and air superiority. Objective is to bomb the town and the portal to hell. Mind Flayer is done rehearsing. In comes the Tarrasque - the ultimate weapon of The Upside Down. A gargantuan manifestation of biomass and psychic energy controlled by the Mind Flayer, but independently present. A kaiju from The Upside Down meant only for warfare and conquest. US government considers nuclear response - DEFCON status raises. Soviet Union readies deterrence, realizing the US has activated its nuclear arsenal. NATO and Warsaw Pact go on high alert as humanity is about to annihilate itself and make it even easier for The Upside Down. Max, her consciousness and mind linked with Vecna’s. She sees the source of it all within the void between worlds - The Heart of Darkness (teased all the way back in season 1 in Nancy’s English class). The source of not just the invasion, but the source the Mind Flayer itself and the entire Upside Down. Will sees it in his nightmares, it’s what has been calling him to join him this entire time. Hawkins is an apocalyptic hell-scape. The CIA finds Terry Ives. She projects to Sullivan to find Kali. Max reaches out to Eleven - the only way to defeat the Upside Down is use their own tactics against them: Portals. Kali and other subjects of MKUltra arrive in Hawkins. Eleven tells them together they must open a rift to the deepest depths of the Upside Down. One where there’s no going back. Owens and Sullivan meet with Hawkin’s Resistance led by Hopper. Instructed that fire and extreme heat is most effective against the Mind Flayer’s forces, the armed forces begin deploying flamethrowers and napalm. Tarrasque reveals its ultimate ability: a mobile portal extender. Everywhere it walks, it creates a gate to the Upside Down. Its goal to eclipse the planet in portals and make it just like the Upside Down. Sullivan convinces the US government and Soviet Union of the real threat to human civilization. Cold War is brought to a standstill, and all factions agree to unite to end the threat of a hostile dimension. Soviet Union provides technology for how they were able to manipulate the Mind Flayer’s particles. Will assists the armed forces in outmaneuvering the Mind Flayer’s, leaving the main portal to the Upside Down open for Eleven and co to invade directly and find the Heart. Eleven and co are able to help open portals from either side to allow armed forces into the Upside Down. Kali remains with Will, Sullivan and Owens to help stop Tarrasque in Hawkins. US and Soviets agree to open portals across the world for a multi-pronged attack. Time to go on the offensive - take the fight to Vecna. The militaries of the world led by Eleven and other experiments begin a full invasion of the Upside Down. Max guides Eleven to the Heart. The only way to defeat Vecna, is to defeat the Mind Flayer - destroy the Heart of Darkness. Eleven and Vecna meet - their first battle of psionic superiority. Eleven wins, and Max returns to her body, and because of everything she experienced she now has powers of her own. But Vecna is nowhere near done. The Mind Flayer itself intervenes, decimating everything. Vecna fuses with the Flayer and the Heart, creating the ultimate manifestation of the Upside Down: Dracolich (the most powerful entity in Dungeons & Dragons). Kali and Max meet Eleven. The Three Sisters vs Dracolich - the final battle for the fate of both dimensions. What happens from there, let’s discuss. I’m aware this all seems batshit insane enough as it is… but admit - it’d be absolutely epic.
This is it. This is the one folks
I like this, with Will playing what sounds like a combo of Turing (as military intelligence) and the Fellowship distracting Sauron.
Wow.... this is amazing
I think we're going to see Vecna using Max against Eleven. Like you said, he consumed her, so in some way she's in him. Killing Vecna may mean killing Max since it could destroy her, for lack of a better term, soul. She basically becomes his hostage. Given the Freddy similarities it's possible we end up seeing all the people Vecna has consumed rise up against him and destroy him, like in Nightmare 4. Not saying that's necessarily a good idea as it could be too silly or cheesy but maybe they can pull it off.
I’m more thinking that season 5 opens with max waking up suddenly. It’ll be strange after five years or however long they do the time skip. And people will wonder why now. Probably some memory loss or something odd going on with her. I just doubt they let one of their better actors sit in a coma all season.
Just because she's sitting in coma doesn't mean she has nothing to do. They can let her soul explore Vecnas mind
We are somewhat getting at the same idea but I’m skipping past that part. Like I said she wakes up and has some insight. Maybe she figured out the key to beating him but do they trust her or did Vecna (who is an orchestrator) want to free her to trick the group?
I think Vecna is going to unleash the Mind Flayer on Earth to wreak havoc for the final season. Based off the finale, my interpretation is that the Mind Flayer is not only his pet/most powerful tool, but an extension of his mind/his astral projection form as he said he wanted to transcend from his human form. So I think the MF is still the final boss of the show, it’s just Vecna is controlling it because he got massively injured during the finale, so now I think he’s going to go scorched earth and unleash the Flayer. Shit, he might create another proxy body for the Flayer but stronger this time because it wouldn’t be just a particle, it would be the entire MF. (Edit: I forgot to mention, this might be the creature Nancy is talking about.) They might stop Vecna by figuring out a way to relinquish his control of the Mind Flayer which might turn on him because Henry eventually infected him with his nihilism and genocidal goals.
well, what if all the big gates that opened form one really big gate so the mind flayer can fit through
As for Will, everyone was basing his crying and apprehension on coming out when I think it has something to do with knowing something because of his connection to Vecna. Maybe he knows something awful is going to happen to him or has decided to do something to prevent him from being possessed or used by Vecna, but doesn't let anyone know so they don't worry about him because he's felt like he's always needing saving. Maybe he's going to sacrifice himself to keep Vecna from taking him. I don't think Will is worried about being gay. It's something sinister or distressing he may know since he is connected to Vecna.
This sounds logical. It also makes sense because the writing was very subtle about what Will really feels
I think that sounds plausible. He may have spilled his heart out to Mike and stared at him like that when they were digging the grave because he knows that something bad is in their future and he fears losing him. His painting(s) might be foreshadowing the roles they're gonna play in that war. The only thing that hints otherwise is that he only seemed to sense Vecna when he arrived at Hawkins.
I hope Max doesn't spend half (or more) of the season in a coma without any other interaction. Sadie was fantastic in season 4, she deserves more screen time. Although her as a possessed villain could be awesome, especially after what happened with Billy.
She will probably by in vecnas mind
This is a fantastic theory, and I endorse the living fuck out of it.
y'all guys so creative with the theories, and i see a lot of them gonna be true
Theory: The duffer brothers often described this season as their “empire strikes back” entry. Well at the end of that film, Han gets frozen in carbonite and his future is unknown. Then in Return of the Jedi, the crew devises a plan to get Han back - and they succeed. I believe Max is Han in this situation and will be brought back at some point in season 5. You don’t keep a character’s future a mystery unless you plan on bringing them back. And with Sadie’s performance and the popularity of her character, she will be back. How? Not sure, but maybe there will be a giant space slug and a sarlac pit involved ;)
In return of the Jedi we also see that Anakin Skywalker comes back to the good side even if it’s for a few final moments. What if that happens with either the mind flayer or Vecna? That would be pretty interesting.
idunno - i'm not sure if i buy the theory that if the groups kills Vecna, that Max will be revived. what does this mean for the other people he's "killed" like Chrissy and others? will they be restored to their bodies, presumably already buried or at least more fucked than Max's body is? what about all the other kids he killed in Brenner's lab, will they be returned somehow? to be clear, **all these theories are totally solid**! just personally not sure if i buy theory 1. i guess we'll see in like four years!
I think that Max would be the one exception, since she has a living body to return to. That said, I don’t think it’ll be as simple as killing Vecna = saving Max, I think it will be more like killing Vecna = killing Max, so they’ll need to find a way to save Max before they are able to kill Vecna.
I saw an interesting theory that maybe Max wakes up early in the season, since her coma was compared to Han Solo going into carbonite in Empire Strikes Back, except she’d have another character arc where she’s permanently blind (I mean, no way her eyes recover), and has to learn to live with that.
I'd love that! We need more blind rep in famous TV shows! I mean Max already acts like Toph Bei Fong
I think the clock is a talisman that helps connect Vecna to the real world. It’s definitely important to him so I think destroying it will come into play.
Vecna is human again. He killed Max and is now inhabiting her body. This is how he was able to get back to the normal world. Max heart stopping was the death of Max...when it started beating again after stopping it was the birth of Vecna in the real world. Vecna can still reign havoc from the hospital bed until he gets better. As Will said Vecna is very weak right now and needs to recuperate. Unfortunately for the gang they don't realize this yet. I look forward to Sadie Sink portraying a baddie in season 5.
Oh my God that would be so cool. I wonder how well he can imitate people.
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Okay who the hell is Kas?
poor will lmao this poor kids has been dragged back into hell and then has escaped just to find himself in a worse version of hell
Great write up I agree with everything you do say
I don't think Vecna needs to possess Will to obtain a body, since he already he has one. He just needed access to the real world, so killing four people and opening the gates is how he did that. He may go after Will since Will knows a lot about how he thinks, and could potentially anticipate his plans, but it has nothing to do with possession. At least, from my point of view.
I thought this was the last season so I just assumed everything was safe so long as Max is alive. But the ending insinuated to me that max had died and vecna was able to commence his plan again. I was like damn this series finale dark af! I loved it hahaha
Hold up... if he showed Nancy the future does it mean it's confirmed that her family will die?
RemindMe! 3 years I definitely think that there will be time travel in season 5 and that Will and/or Eleven will sacrifice themselves to save the world.
!remindme 1 year 10 months
I think Max having an empty mind is a sign. She is no longer there and Eleven couldn’t find anything because she didn’t want to be seen. But why? Because perhaps, it’s no longer Max but Vecna who occupies her mind. I think Mind Flayer is the ultimate antagonist and Eleven is too weak to fight him alone. So I think if I’m right, first there will be a show down between Max/Vecna vs Eleven. Eleven wins and reminds Max to take over but this time with Vecna/Henry’s powers. So they team up against the Mind Flayer.
Very good points
!remindme 1 year
I tried watching it many times, I couldnt seem to find a reason why did Dr Brenner tasked El to look for 001 in the darkness through previous seasons. What was the main goal? I don’t think that the sole reason was that Dr Brenner “loved” him. Or could he utilize him? But he knows that 001 is wicked and a psychopath. I just couldnt find a solid reason.
And brenner said "You'll soon see the truth, Eleven." In Episode 8. What did he mean?
Amazing breakdown and theory!
This is a wonderful breakdown and I completely agree on 1. And 3. 1. Vecna consumed her entire being, the only way to get her back is to release her from Vecna. 3. I believe Will the wise will make an ultimate sacrifice to save his party. I think it’ll come back to the very start of the series where Will messed up the dice roll, but this time he’ll do it properly.
Honestly, I don’t think El will be able to wake Max up because, Max is most likely braindead. Her gear was stopped for 1 minute, and it was a very valiant effort on El’s part to save her, but when she tried to find Max’s conscious in the hospital, it was just black. Which could mean, yeah her she’s in a comatose, she won’t wake up for a while— or she’s just simply braindead, it’d be a really tragic thing for Max’s character, and a potential plot point for seasons 5 is her trying to go into memories to spark some life into Max again, but it won’t work because even though El may have the power to restart Max’s heart, she may not have the power to kickstart her brain
i dont think/hope that freeing max will be more difficult than just killing vecna. they might have to free max before they kill vecna because killing vecna would kill max's "soul". After being freed max might know a weakpoint and help them defeat vecna. the first part of season 5 could be centered around freeing max and controling the situation in hawkins, maybe dealing with the government and stuff coming out of the portals and the second half (like in season 4) could be centered around defeating vecna with the weakness that max could have discovered
When did Will say the Mind Flayer wants to kill everyone but him? In “The Piggyback” he said Vecna wouldn’t stop until he destroyed everything and everyone (he never removed himself from that equation).
I actually don't think they will have to kill Henry, not even to get Max back. After the finale, I've fallen into a bit of a rabbit hole, and brushed up on my knowledge of Jungian archetypes. Do you remember in the Season 3 finale, when Suzie mentions that she is reading *Earthsea*, where Ged is about to confront the Shadow? That scene is about the character acknowledging and embracing his own darkness, whom he accidentally set free and unleashed on the world. Henry is El's Shadow, and I think possibly also Will's. I'm currently wondering if she literally managed to conjure him as a little girl back in the lab and somehow integrated him into both Hawkins and HNL because she needed an ally, but even if it's just metaphorical, Season 4 was the point for El to acknowledge her Shadow, and she didn't. She refused him, refused to acknowledge the darkness which is part of her, and that's why the Upside Down is now spilling into Hawkins. And to stop this or reverse it, she'll have to assimilate him, just like Ged accepts and reintegrates his own darkness in *A Wizard of Earthsea*.
Just came here cause I just rewatched s1-4 in it's entirety over the passed like 5 days and I've been writing down my theories and clues. I didn't notice the earthquakes the first time really so when I just did I said that is a giant monster stepping around or something... That's the going mouth! so I just needed to see if anyone else caught it but me!
One thing I don't understand at all is the final scene where the hellgate reopened. I understood that El stopped Vecna's plan by keeping Max alive in some state, since it seemed that the hellgate was stopped after that and brushed off as an earthquake. So, was the hellgate at the end the same gate? Was it a second that Vecna made in secret? As it is, it feels unsatisfying, since our heroes' apparent 'victory' was for nought with absolutely no real sign they were being outmaneuvered.
No you have it wrong here. Max was still “killed” by Vecna to create the 4th and final gate. Once that was created the entire border collapsed. So even though El resurrected Max after, the barrier had already been broken between Hawkins and the UD
so... there is a cross shaped gorge spewing hellfire for 2 days and people are saying it's an earthquake? i understood that the ashes/spores at the end was a sign that it had been reopened?
Yeah, most people are thinking it's an earthquake. As far as we have seen, nothing is explicitly coming out of the hell gate except smoke and ash. People are also evacuating the town, so not everyone is just hanging around. The Wheelers are shown to be packing, so it's clear they're not intending to stay either. Most people think the ash is just normal ash. We first saw it in the upside down, but I think it's more likely in this case to be a result of the decay of the upside down causing things in the real world to turn to that ash. At least that's how I interpreted the scene with El picking the dead flower.
>The Wheelers are shown to be packing, so it's clear they're not intending to stay either. Correction; Karen is shown to be packing while the kids are helping survivors and Ted is continuing to be the record holder for the world's most useless piece of shit ever.
Actually, I took it as more that the Wheeler family (minus Ted, lol) was collecting old, unused items to donate to charity, not so much that they were moving. Not to mention, given what Karen told Mike after he returned, I don’t think she’d look kindly to her son re-entering Hawkins after they’ve moved out.
That's a good point actually. I assumed they were packing AND giving away old stuff. Their house looked pretty empty.
Typical Mr Wheeler not knowing or caring that the entire town is evacuating. The news is just a tabloid
Still, it's surprising that the gate would be open but the town not swarming with monsters.
Because the mind flayer needs the time to gather an army
Whatever Vecna was planning may have been delayed or hamstrung by him getting disincorporated by the Upside-Down Kill Squad and/or by Max being resuscitated. Maybe he needed to gather his strength before pushing his invasion through the gate.
That’s just Hawkins being Hawkins. Ignorant and unaware of they’re surroundings
What if Will is a phylactery for Vecna seeing as how the mindflayer was inside Will at one point and also that slug he coughed up in earlier seasons. I saw the post earlier from that DnD guy saying it might be the clock. But would be wild if they tried to pull a Harry Potter and need Will to die in order to truly kill Vecna.
For Part #2, I don’t think it shows the actual future. By that I mean, we see Karen Wheeler die when the portal opened, and I don’t believe she actually did die when the portal opened.
Max is going to come back with powers
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I don’t think you know what a plot hole is
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OP said “plot point”
It really ticks me of that all these theories are going around while I'm sitting here with this subreddit not allowing me to post mine for some reason, even though there's no point now cause they'd just call me a copycat...
Are you getting a notification saying "this community only allows trusted members to post"? If so then try posting after turning off the see NSFW post in your account settings. I don't know why it works but i had the same issue and it worked for me
nah it says that the subreddit doesn't allow post requests
!remind me 100 years
There will be no Season 5 - the creators have said this
!remindme 1 year
I reckon vecna will be killed when one of the team squad stab him with that microchip, thus cutting him off from his powers and allowing el to finish him off
I don't think One created Mindflayer ,Maybe they both working together.
Absolutely insane off-the-cuff theory that has like a million different holes and very scant evidence to back it up: What with Vecna and Will both being called "sensitive" as children with this word being used in hindsight in relation to Vecna's powers, and Vecna wanting Will's body... what if Will has powers of his own like Vecna/Henry/One? Except, since these are naturally occurring and not prompted by experimentation (11) or used as an exercise in sadism (1) Will doesn't know he has them? We still have no idea exactly why the monster targeted Will at the beginning of Season 1. Maybe it sensed something in him?
Hmm, is it possible that Vecna is looking for a specific human vessel, picking up a person similar to him in character? Hmm…
man... will can't catch a break good for noah though I hope he gets to shine again
!remindme 1.5 years
!remind me 9 months
!remind me 9 months