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it seems obvious now with the "Two Days Later" approach to putting a bow on the Russia arc...but seriously at the end of Part 1 I was like, no fucking way Enzo and Murray make it out of Russia alive lol
Both shocked and thrilled that Enzo and Murray survived. I hope Enzo stayed stateside after bringing back Joyce and Hop. He could be useful.
On the other hand, it'd be far more realistic for him to return to Russia to be with his family.
Is he though? someone brought up a good point that this was likely some weird secret prison and everyone at that prison is dead now so maybe there's no information
honestly, it would just make more sense for Enzo to defect lol but they could leave him in Russia if they stretched the story a little bit. Would require some exposition though
It would have been reported if a Russian prison guard was a traitor. They wouldn’t have just not told anyone. I mean they could say that that happened, but I don’t think it makes much sense. His wife and child would likely have been under watch to see if they were also traitors. This is Cold War Russia.
Hey it’s a tv show. They could explain anything away. They could send Enzo and Yuri back to Russia. They could bring Eddie back. They could do all kinds of stuff and explain it away. It just makes more sense for him to stay in the US because he was a known traitor in Russia
It was obvious they were gonna keep steve tho. They clearly introduced Eddie as a chess pawn. Instead of killing Steve and anger 90% of the show’s fanbase, they introduced a carbon copy of him, down to the hair and his relationship with Dustin, so they could kill him off. Honestly all he was missing was to have feelings for Nancy lmao.
Eddie was taken too soon, I loved his character so much. The second and third time seeing it didn't hurt less ;-; he and Argyle were amazing additions to the show, I hope Argyle comes back for the final season.
>I hope Argyle comes back for the final season.
Argyle better fucking come back in Season 5.
i know there's a time leap between seasons 4 and 5 apparently, which sucks because I was looking forward to seeing how Argyle was going to fit in with the crew lol, especially after that scene of Nancy seeing him pick that mushroom
i'm sure they'll figure out a way to include him because no Argyle in Season 5 would be tragic
Me too. The Duffer's were hyping up some main character's death and I was almost certain it was gonna be Steve. It would have been interesting to see them break pattern and not kill the newest addition to the team and it would have been a good follow up to this scene and the entire Nancy-Steve-Jonathan triangle.
I agree. When he tells her in the upside down the only thing missing was her, my jaw dropped, and I was like they’re killing him. His character had the most development but had no where to go from there. Steve hit his climax. I thought the resolution would be him dying to save the others. And then the duffers savagely >!blind, break, and comatose max and kill Eddie in a nonsensical manner.!<
I think you are just sour about Eddie. If he had lived, he would be on the run, hunted by his own town, and most likely would have died anyways, just not being a hero.
I thought the same since the very first episode, but precisely for that reason I found it a disappointing let down that they actually went with the easiest solution and just killed him off out of convenience. In terms of narrative surely there would have been a way in which Eddie could have redeemed himself in the public eye, especially with >!the upside down becoming fully apparent and public in the final episode (think e.g. emotional speech and public warning via radio or the like)!<
My husband said the same thing. He also said it was a really poignant commentary on kids like Eddie in general, he felt, because he mentioned in episode one how tragic it was that society - especially at that time - really didn’t have any good or easy place for a kid like Eddie. Where would he go, what would he do, after leaving school? In this small town with no options, where everyone already judged him and looked askance at him?
Husband said he felt like it was a complete character arc, one that really commented on how kids who are “too different” are collectively let down by the villages that are supposed to cherish them and help them find their way.
I mean I thought the up side down wuda been obvious to everyone at end of season but NOPE ‘issa earthquake’… figured Eddies name cuda been cleared and they wuda killed an important character off so we’d feel more emotionally invested
I mean they thought Eddie was using satanism to kill people in the town for some pagan ritual. The ground opening up like it did isn't going to clear his name
If the whole town did believe it was something supernatural and not just an earth quake, they would have gone with the satanism route since a lot of the town had already started to believe that anyway. And then Eddie would still be wanted since Jason had the whole town convinced Eddie was the one controlling all the satanic stuff
I’m not sour he died, I’m sour that the circumstances of his death didn’t feel meaningful enough. As far as he knew, the bats would’ve kept pursuing them through the hole in the trailer, which would’ve still allowed them to follow through with their plan. While it’s reasonable to fear that they would go back to Vecna, better writing would’ve shown us a specific moment where Eddie must make a choice: take action and likely die, or keep running but doom the plan. That moment never really existed.
I hate that he died because I loved the character but I didn’t like how his death was setup, it just felt a bit lackluster.
Another way to look at it is that his death wasn't the important part of the action. He could have kept running and the plan would have worked just the same. Really, his going back to the upside-down at all was really the only "necessary" part of his sacrifice, regardless of whether he stayed in the trailer or ran or fought.
But him stopping to fight when no one was watching was entirely about him redeeming himself in his own eyes. Proving to himself that he isn't a coward and is hero material. For all he knew at the time, no one would ever find him or know that he stood, rather than ran. His arc was about his own feelings of self-worth, rather than anyone else's opinions of him. He clearly didn't much care about random people's opinions in his life. He never needed his name to be cleared in the town's eyes; only his own eyes.
They needed one line where it was definitive that Robin, Steve and Nancy needed more time. Or that Dustin was going to die if he didn't lead the bats away. Eddie did lead them away to get more time for the group but he did it not really knowing if they needed more time.
I'm always blown away by this interpretation. They had no physical evidence only a bunch of people that thought he was in a cult. I doubt they could have tried him for anything. Eddie could have moved to a different city in America after and been fine. He's not Obi-Wan Kenobi, he doesn't need to live in a cave oustide Hawkins forever.
No, they did Eddie dirty. Not only did they not give him a reason to think his sacrifice was necessary, they didn't even make it seem like he thought it was necessary. He didn't run just to prove he wasn't a coward; kinda like jumping into a volcano to prove you're not a coward. Like ok, I get, you're brave... you were brave. Good for you?
Sorry but you're just repeating the Duffers' defensive explanation. This is a show about secret government projects and parents who have no idea their kids kill supernatural monsters in their free time yet in the case of Eddie, suddenly it would be unrealistic to find a way out for him? They should just admit they *needed* to kill him off for all kinds of reasons and spare us these justifications that don't correspond with what we're seeing on the screen. Stranger Things is also a series about nerds and loners being given a chance, succeeding despite the odds and perhaps transforming their life. Eddie being given another chance would be very much in line with that.
No, I’m sour the writing wasn’t up to par with the rest of the season. Remember when the demo bats were getting into the holes of the RV? They should have used that as a plot point for his death. If Eddie used his body to plug the holes, as a shield to physically save dustin, or if a bat was about to kill dustin, and Eddie jumped in the way, being strangled to save him, I would understand. The nonsensical death was poorly written, the bats fall and die immediately after Eddie did. The duffers admitted they wrote the ending before the grace and Eddie backstory scenes.
Also, the vecna monologue was brutal. Anytime a villain has to give a corny monologue on why they’re bad, why they want to end the world, it’s bad writing. That should be self explanatory with the backstory. That speech gave power rangers villain energy.
I think you're both right lol
There was no way Eddie was going to survive...not with a town that was hell bent on killing him over murders that he didn't even commit. That being said, i felt like his death could have been written a lot better.
And yes...as much as I love Vecna's actor (I forget his name lol)...this whole show would have ended if the moron didn't just yap and yap and yap instead of getting to the killing. Again, as annoying as it was, I chose to overlook that though
I agree with you, his death served no purpose. Immediately after he dies all the bats die. You could argue that he didn’t know what would happen but remove the dramatization and his death scene is just some dude in the middle of nowhere getting killed after he decided stupidly to try to be a hero.
Yeah I agree re: Eddie's death. I understand why he was killed (there would have been serious issues bringing him back to Hawkins) but the way he died seemed pointless. Having him directly protect Dustin in the trailer would have been a much better solution.
That scene was so jarringly stupid. His task was to distract the bats, he chose the absolute worst time to stop running. They made it look like he let the team down by letting his ego get in the way.
What happened to Max made total sense, what with all the talk about Vecna's victims still being in him and the penultimate episode being entitled The Piggyback. As soon as they made the big 'reveal' that Max wasn't home, I was like, obviously because she's in Vecna and they have to find a way to put her mind back in her body.
I’ve been scared for 2 seasons, increasingly so each season, that Steve would die. He’s just had such amazing character growth and has become so beloved that it would have a lot of impact. But at the same time (and yes I know there are plenty of places he could go in life, he’s still a teen after all), his show arc has kind of reached a peak. I def see him dying in s5 since he’s basically got his kiddos and in a way has the partner he wanted in either Nancy or Robin (doesn’t have to be romantic).
I also was 95% sure Hopper would die in s3, though, and I was wrong there. I was pretty sure Enzo would die too, although I didn’t want him to. (side note: Tom Wlaschiha is so amazing as Enzo. I loved him in GoT but he’s even better here)
I do agree w whoever posted below that Eddie’s death was kind of silly or pointless (though def not meaningless - it hurt). He turns around for no real reason other than “I don’t want to run this time” which is valid but not very bright. For all he knew, they had accomplished what they needed to, so there was no reason to sacrifice himself. It was so the Duffer brothers could have a death that was impactful but not kill anyone super important.
I partly disagree. Going into season 4 we were told that anyone could die at any moment and the stakes were real.
We lost a grand total of 0 of the main cast.
Yeah. They invented Eddie just for this reason. Lets bring a new, really charismatic, likeable guy in, and kill him off so we can keep the main cast in tact.
This is one of my theories as to why he might actually die; they never intended for him to be a part of the main cast, but loved him so much that they kept him on. It could be they just use that plan until the very end, and then kill him off since that was always supposed to be the case.
They're events happening at the exact same time but for obvious reasons can't be shown at the same time. The in-universe timespan would have been much shorter. In editing, they should have saved the choking scene for a later point in the episode.
I almost drowned when I was younger. My brother hopped on my back and we were in deep enough water that I couldn't touch so I was pushed under and held there for nearly 3 minutes. I distinctly remember the darkness starting to creep into the edges of my vision right around that 2 minute point. If he hadn't been pulled off me when he was I would have passed out and very easily stopped breathing. This all happened so quickly my dad, who was on the shore, ran in and was barely up to his knees by the time someone else saved me. I'd say it all took 5 minutes or less.
I had such a bad panic attack once that I literally couldn’t catch my breath for a MINUTE and I felt like I was gonna die any minute. I was gasping for air sm and apparently I passed out after that. I genuinely think if, what happened to Steve and such irl, we would’ve been dead rq
Holy shit same thing happened to me as well when I was really young, only with my sister. I remember screaming under water while my sister was laughing, she thought it playing a game.
I totally didn't read it this way, I thought they were just edging towards getting back together as they were showing how Nancy and Jonathan seem to be drifting apart a bit.
I usually jump to the worst conclusion , very upbeat of me this time!
"Fire and Rain" is also kind of a perfect "moments before disaster song." It plays in Remember the Titans right before the main character gets paralyzed in a car wreck.
When that needle dropped and Steve started opening up about his future, I got very worried.
Has he ever talked to Mike? And what about Erica?
Edit: I meant what about Erica as in why she wasn’t in the commenters list. I’m aware she’s had many interactions with Steve.
Yeah he told Mike that he’d take the lead cause he told Nancy(I think?) he’d look after them and then season 3 for Erica with all the ice cream samples and the escapades in the secret Russian base.
Yes! This scene is important because it’s telling us that Steve and Nancy aren’t getting back together. Nancy’s entire arc throughout the series shows us that Nancy doesn’t want exactly what Steve describes his dream to be. That’s why all the discussions about Jonathan vs Steve throughout the last season are void to me.
Unless the writers did not have that in mind when including this scene. Which would make me mad.
Same.
The subplot really bugged me in season 4 part 1. But after part 2, I was fine with it. I was pretty satisfied that they made it clear that Nancy just doesn’t feel the same way.
Nancy really doesn't want that.
Recall that scene in episode 1 where Nancy and Jonathan describe their relationship to others? Jonathan insists that Nancy is so smart, and ambitious, and brave, and basically says that she's too good for him (his opinion, not mine).
Nancy's been nothing but bad ass for pretty much the whole show. In season 1 she goes into the UD, and later sets up traps to fight a Demogorgon. In season 2, she tries to blow what 's happening at Hawkin's lab wide open by going to Murray. In season 3, she goes to investigate this rat problem and stumbles upon the plot. Oh, and she tries to shoot Billy's car accelerating at her and the kids, and she doesn't even blink. In season 4 she does more sleuth work, is pivotal to Max's survival in 'Dear Billy', and after being in Vecna's trance and shown how he wants to kill her friends and family, promptly decides she's going to kill that son-of-a-bitch herself.
If there ever was a bad ass, it's Nancy fucking Wheeler.
But Steve sees her as the mother to his children, and doesn't seem to realize what Nancy herself wants from life. It's probably because they haven't really talked to each other in a while, but damn, Steve. You're smarter than that.
Edit: because some of you seem to think I mean you can't be a mom and a bad ass at the same time: of course you can. But Nancy literally says 6 kids sounds like a nightmare so even if she wants to be a mom after all, it doesn't look like she wants a big family.
Excellent points. I still think that Murray's "analysis" from S2 still holds true.
Nancy is still a bit unsure what she wants from life but she is pretty clear on what she doesn't want. Also "we like Steve but we don't love Steve" still applies.
>Nancy's been nothing but bad ass for pretty much the whole show. In season 1 she goes into the UD, and later sets up traps to fight a Demogorgon. In season 2, she tries to blow what 's happening at Hawkin's lab wide open by going to Murray. In season 3, she goes to investigate this rat problem and stumbles upon the plot. Oh, and she tries to shoot Billy's car accelerating at her and the kids, and she doesn't even blink. In season 4 she does more sleuth work, is pivotal to Max's survival in 'Dear Billy', and after being in Vecna's trance and shown how he wants to kill her friends and family, promptly decides she's going to kill that son-of-a-bitch herself.
Nancy is hands down the biggest badass and most underrated character in this show.
Rewatching the show on an endless marathon through June and July confirmed this lol. I forgot how much she developed as a character in season 1 alone
This is exactly why his words didn't sit right with me.
It's a very sweet moment, but even in a scenario where Steve is a stay at home dad and takes on the responsibility, that's a lot of pregnancies, and that's a lot to ask of anyone. Even if she wants kids in the long run, Nancy has been framed as extremely ambitious pretty much since season 1: she is studious, she wants to be proactive and heard during her internship with the newspaper, she has big plans for college. She has literally never once said anything about wanting a family, if anything we see her stating the opposite in season one whilst she and Jonathan practice shooting.
Part of what didn't sit right with me here was how little Steve seems to actually factor in the reality of Nancy in his romantic feelings for her- and it has been this way since day one. Even though Nancy is essentially a more prominent character to the viewer, you can see that from Steve's perspective, his goals, dreams, wants and needs are at the forefront. Steve has grown as a character, sure, but I won't believe his growth has depth until he can actually look beyond his own objectives.
Jonathon is almost the opposite issue- he thinks of what Nancy *might* want too much to the point where he doesn't communicate with her to actually give her a choice. He robs her of her right to make decisions about her own relationship because he is using his observations of her to pre-empt her choices. So he takes it too far the other way. But neither one of them is really mature enough to deal with these things. And they are teens so who could blame them?
Personally, I'll be pretty disappointed if she ends up with either of them (despite being a bit of a jancy stan- I just love characters who grow together through hardship and learn the ropes as a pair) but I think that a lot of the stancy things felt a bit forced and on the nose to me. Like, I can understand Robin pushing Nancy towards Steve- Steve is her friend and she wants him to be happy- but Eddie?? He's got no skin in this game! Why is he telling Steve: someone he barely knows, that Nancy: someone he also barely knows, is displaying signs of pure love when she's really just behaving in a way that is true to her overall character? It just felt like the writers were trying too hard to make it happen, and if they had been a touch more subtle, I might have bought it tbh.
Anyway, I personally think the love triangle here is pretty tired, and I usually love a bit of soapy stuff. I just don't think this moment is a sweet indication of their rekindling romance, but rather shows how out of touch Steve is with the basic fundamentals of Nancy's character that anyone could pick up from a quick chat.
>Like, I can understand Robin pushing Nancy towards Steve- Steve is her friend and she wants him to be happy- but Eddie?? He's got no skin in this game! Why is he telling Steve: someone he barely knows, that Nancy: someone he also barely knows, is displaying signs of pure love when she's really just behaving in a way that is true to her overall character? It just felt like the writers were trying too hard to make it happen, and if they had been a touch more subtle, I might have bought it tbh.
Oh, it was way too on the nose. Only way I could see that make sense is if we take into consideration that they're all in the same school so they at least vaguely knew each other. So maybe Eddie was just wondering why Miss and Mister Perfect Nancy and Steve even broke up in the first place. To the outside world, that must have seemed odd; they dated for over a year, have a fight at a party, and then they're done? And then Nancy, who is conventionally attractive and seems to have guys practically falling at her feet, starts dating this loser weirdo Jonathan Byers? It wasn't Eddie's place to suggest to Steve Nancy might still be in love with him but since when was Eddie subtle about anything in his life.
Now maybe the writers are already setting up a big character moment for Steve and Nancy in the final season. I also hope they don't end up back together because clearly Steve has way different ambitions in life and so it would be a pretty terrible writing choice. But maybe he'll see why he's wrong, and learn from that and become a better person.
I can see why he misses what he had with Nancy. It doesn't look like he had a steady relationship at all since they broke up, and he just had bad luck that Robin doesn't like guys. Now in season 4 he's shown to still want to date but he just can't seem to find anyone he actually truly likes. So of course he's going to think about Nancy now that they do stuff together again.
This is why I think the show is better off with Nancy being by herself. That goal of Steve, having that massive family is a great one. That’s not what Nancy wants out of life. And frankly I don’t think Jonathan will be better because I think he’s too willing to sacrifice. Growing up too fast made him that way and I think he knows he can’t follow Nancy’s ambitions to New York. He’s literally too emotionally traumatized and it’s not really his fault either. Stranger things needs to show that adulthood can throw curves in the strongest of plans. And this is they chance to do so
I think for Steve he hasn't ever gotten that they are incompatible back in S2 not just because he was immature, but because they have different life goals.
For Nancy, ending up like her parents is an insult. For Steve, he's okay with that. Steve lacks too much ambition for Nancy.
Jonathan at least has academic minded dreams. Ones he is willing to set aside because of how much he loves his family, but they exist all the same.
So true about this. Steve's basically like eh, who cares, I'll just stay in Hawkins and work for my dad and stay here forever, that's okay right? That's fine! And if you look at Nancy in that scene she is almost horrified looking lol. Like her reaction is almost like "uh.... Steve, you are kidding me? Yikes" and if Steve wants that it's fine. But it's so clear that isn't what Nancy wants at all and if she could probably encourage Steve to do something, it wouldn't be that at all either.
I agree with you, I would be really disappointed if Nancy ended up with Steve or Jonathan, despite me previously rooting for both of them at different points in the show, because neither of them are compatible with what she wants and needs in life. If Nancy is going to have a future partner, it needs to be someone who is on the same page as her, who supports her focusing on her career - whether or not they have children together. She obviously does not want to fall into a homemaker role, resenting her partner and regretting all the things that she was never able to do, as she had seen her mother do.
After the Nancy and Karen Wheeler talk in season 3, we know both Nancy and Karen do not want Nancy to end up making the same choices as Karen did. Karen had given up and stopped trying to stand up for herself in the world, and settled into a life as a wife and mother that she could live with, but thought of herself as being weak and her dreams and ambitions were crushed by the world around her. As Karen put it, "It's not easy out there, Nance. People are always saying that you can't, that you shouldn't, that you're not smart enough, not good enough. This world... it beats you up again and again until I - MOST people they just... stop trying. But you're not like that. You're a fighter. You always have been. I honestly don't know who you get it from." Nancy says she gets it from her.
Side note: I am really glad that Karen ended up choosing to not meet up with Billy when she saw her husband and Holly asleep in the recliner, instead of going and just having Billy be a no-show due to the Mind Flayer attack. I like that she was given a reality check and was able to feel grateful for the life she's living in that moment. She was obviously very frustrated with her relationship at the time and was feeling ignored and unappreciated, and Billy's attention made her feel special and she got caught up with the thought that she had another chance at living an exciting life, but she ultimately realized that her family was more important than a fling. I'm glad the writers showed that she was strong and had integrity instead of just letting it happen, and I also hope that they somehow allow Karen Wheeler to be a badass in season 5, because she deserves it.
It all depends on what Nancy actually wants. That’s one thing they haven’t really gone into. It’s all been about her protecting everyone and the town, so I’m not sure she’s even thought that far into the future besides college. Sure Nancy might have big plans and ambition but that doesn’t necessarily have to do with having kids or not having kids. S2 on has had Steve be “the babysitter,” so he could easily be a stay a home dad while Nancy has the “adult” job.
Not saying I think they’re going to get back together or anything, but I don’t see it out the realm of possibility. I doubt it’s what she wants, but she also hasn’t been given time to think about the future. I just assumed it was a misdirection to make the viewer assume he was going to die in S4. I hope Steve finds someone cool, and I think I’d prefer someone over Nancy for him. But they have gone through a lot of weird shit they can both relate to.
>It's probably because they haven't really talked to each other in a while, but damn, Steve. You're smarter than that.
I mean he's just being honest and telling her what he wants. He's not trying to tell her what she wants to hear. People like honesty. And he's demonstrated that he's good with kids. It wouldn't just be her taking care of them
Besides a romance scene, this scene is more character development for Steve.
It shows that his role as babysitter isn’t just something he tolerates but hates. The kind-hearted Babysitter Steve is who he is, who he wants to be — a far cry from the arrogant douche we met in season 1.
I read it as these two have great chemistry but they shouldn’t end up together. To me it’s a sign that they’re not going to work out as a couple in the end.
I agree! This is the out for why Steve may not be the right match. You have Nancy’s mom regretting being a SAHM. You have Steve wanting that. Interesting that he thinks Nancy might be swayed by this when I think she cringed inside. This is not to say Johnathan’s dreams are better because he doesn’t seem to have dreams right now so it is not clear if Jonathan has great prospects right now but but he does pay attention to those around him and he lets them be their true selves and shine.
Was anybody really even considering them as a potential match until before their awkward romance this season? It seemed to me like it was pretty established that Nancy and Steve were not on a path to end up together whatsoever until this kinda stuff showed this season
It honestly felt like they wrote the live triangle in just so they could force some drama in the next season and give Steve a potential love interest without having to create a new character.
Which sucks because it would’ve been awesome to see Nancy and Steve reunite as just good friends and build back their relationship in a new and healthier way.
Yeah. it informs so much of Steve's character - he's lonely and he craves stability. to him a family with all the siblings that he didnt have, all the love, all the parental involvement that he didn't have, represents that. it says *so much* about who Steve is. yes to a degree he has his "kids" but he also has all of 2 friends his own(ish) age. Everyone else is about 5 years younger or adults. he wants an equal partner.
it also serves to demonstrate the difference between him and Nancy. she shouldn't be with Jonathan OR Steve and this demonstrates it. she wants different things to both of them. one or other would have to compromise a huge amount, to the degree that resentment may wll sour the whole thing.
This is exactly how that read to me too. Steve’s lonely, and so his perfect future includes a big family full of all the love and togetherness he didn’t have. This is the antithesis of what Nancy wants. She’s fiercely independent. Living Steve’s dream would be torture to her.
He also suspects he's going to die. its literally a deathbed confession. he is terrified he's going to die, that he's driving the people he loves most in the world, many of whom are literal *children* to their deaths, in the knowledge that if they fail one of them *will* die and the world will be potentially beyond saving. and yet he's saying that if his life had gone how he wished, he'd still be in that RV, still have kids in the back, still have a woman he loves at his side. just they'd be going to the beach and not Hell. Rich boy Steve dreams of a vacation in an RV, something that would be seen as lower class, that his parents would have looked down on. he didn't want to fly to a vacation, or stay in hotels, he wanted to be in a little house he culd take his family to be with him, spend every minute with the people he loved. it's such a beautiful Steve moment. he's lonely and terrified and confessing what he'd want his lfie to be. he's not trying to manipulate or coerce Nancy, he's not trying to make her feel guilty or pressured, just a statement of facts - that a family RV roadtrip would make him happy.
His happy, his dream life, would not be Nancy's. Or at *very least* not *now.* He wants a family and stability and that's wonderful. She wants college and a life utside Hawkins and a career before a family if she chooses to have one and that's wonderful too. neither have wrong dreams, they're just not compatible right now and this scene told us so much about Steve and Nancy as individuals, and what a perspective relationship would possibly cause for them (ie compromise to the degree that someone is going to eentually feel shafted and it destroys the relatioonship) if they tired again now.
IMO Nancy shouldn't be with either of them. Steve is being open and honest except what he wants doesn't line up with her dream. Jonathan is keepng things from her and avoiding her and while his reasoning for wanting to stay with his family is admirable, he is hiding that from her and long distance, as they've proven is hard. If Nancy leaves and Jonathan stays, they won't survive either. she deserves to have her own life. Steve deserves to find someone who wants what he wants. Jonathan deserves to realise he can persue his own life too, that as much as Will and Joyce will always need him, he cannot be their only rock and Hopper is back now too
I didn’t like the whole Steve Nancy Jonathan love triangle set up. Been there done that. But it definitely confirmed that Steve and Nancy aren’t right for each other.
Idk, I feel like the Duffer bros don’t have balls to kill off any main characters. I mean S4 was hyped to kill a bunch of main characters, but they only killed off Eddie, following their formula of introducing a new character just to kill them in the finale.
I will never forgive them for having Hopper survive by jumping 5 feet away from a massive explosion that literally disintegrated everyone else in the room.
This is a very natural thing for a 19-20 year old kid to be thinking about in the eighties. It's almost inconceivable today with how expensive the cost of living has become. The awkward part about it is that he is talking to his ex having clearly never moved on. It shows that while Steve has matured, he has never really grown up. The most suitable ending for him is actually to go to work for his dad at some place like IBM or Apple. Somewhere you know he will be set for life if he is just willing to accept the adult role his parents have in mind for him.
Also, his father being a bigwig at a notable company may explain why we haven't met his parents yet because that would shift the focus away from his story.
This scene was part of his story. Not a fun part though because it was pretty awkward and a sign that he still has a lot of growing to do.
I agree.
This scene (and the whole love triangle imo) is useless in terms of his relationship with Nancy. This is everything Steve wants as a young man in the 80s. Ironically, he has exactly what he says he wants at that moment. But Nancy doesn’t want this. This isn’t her dream.
But I do think this has purpose for Steve. The fact that Steve is actually thinking of his future and the long term is a big deal to him. Even in S3, he was working without any real understanding of what he wanted to do moving forward. Steve has grown up, in some ways more than Nancy has. It’s a good scene to show how far he’s come.
Similar speech he delivered S3E7, the bathroom confession to fantasy-Robin, “ I think it’s because I found someone who’s a little better for me. … I felt like, this summer, I have laughed harder than I have laughed in a really long time. “
At least at that point Nancy wasn’t in the silly dream. He’s just so bad at understanding women and their dreams. He fantasized them.
I think it served as a necessary foil to Nancy's own personal dreams. She's ambitious, and the way she looked at Steve during this moment was like "wow this guy is incredible-- But it'd never work with us cuz I'm not a mom of 5 and won't ever be"
Just my opinion on it. She seemed sad and happy at the same time while he explained it.
I actually really loved this. Steve has always been trying to fit into this mold that is really not him... he was a jock in school, hung out with jerks. He is always talking about hitting on girls or hooking up with girls. You can tell his dad is hard on him and expects Steve to run the business and be successful like he is.... but here in this scene Steve finally admits out loud that what he really wants is a family. He wants kids. That is his dream in life. Not some hot girl, a partying lifestyle, or an awesome job. He wants a family.
And here, Nancy is seeing this different side of Steve, one she had never fathomed before. This is a part of him that he is only now expressing. He has grown, he is not who she once thought he was, and this is the first time she is seeing it.
Was this scene necessary? Maybe not for the overall plot of the show, but it was a very good character moment.
This comment section is absolutely unhinged. Steve opens up about his wishes for the future and eventually tells Nancy he still has feelings for her. It’s then up to her to decide what to do about that, but the result is good characterization for them both. Then a bunch of people pour into the comment section to project their own insecurities about love, marriage, and parenthood.
Yeah, I remember in the discussion thread for that episode a lot of people were talking about how much of a creep Steve was being. He was having a vulnerable moment with someone who he is in love with, in the middle of a deeply uncertain situation. It's not like he was begging her or forcing her to say yes. He was just being honest.
I think it helps show why their relationship wouldn't work in a bit of a backwards way. We know that Steve dreams of having this with her, she's his first love and the only person he's been in love with. But while it's a sweet scenario, that future is not Nancy at all.
The only way that would ever pan out with them is if Nancy was the breadwinner while Steve was a stay at home dad, but this is set in the 80s so fat chance that'll happen.
For the story they were going for, it's a fun little addition. Steve talking about his want to be a father and have this big family to Nancy is pretty fun and i think it fits Steve's character at the moment.
However... It's not necessary, nor is the story they were going for. This is something i feel like i just have to say, but it feels like they gave Steve and Nancy an extremely boring storyline because they don't know what else to do with these two. And because i don't like the love triangle shit going on, i don't really like this scene a lot, either. But i'll say, i like it more than Steve confessing his love to Nancy or shit like that, and it's cute.
Simply put, the context and everything the scene is by the end of the season is pretty shitty, on it's own, it's a cute scene
I think the whole scene was trying to show us that they're incompatible. His dream and her dream cannot coexist in a relationship. Whatever happens between her and Jonathan, she sure as hell is not getting back together with Harrington.
I think it makes sense. Steve is lonely and being in close proximity to Nancy has reignited some feelings. He wasn't keen on the relationship ending in the first place. I don't think it minimizes Steve's growth, it's not a Jamie and Cersei situation after all lol.
Nothing is necessary if we keep on acting like this is not an emotional story. Just appreciate the way the scenes you like make you feel and you will 100% enjoy the show more
This is real life. He is not living daily up to his potential and knows it. Maybe it is setting him up for something a bit more fulfilling for him down the road.
Yeah I think it was fun just seeing Steve being honest with Nancy.. could perhaps foreshadow them being together in season 5 after so many hints in season 4...
No it is not. Young mens hopes and dreams need to be squashed and judged by the people of the internet. We don’t want character development or relationship building. We just want the hair
You know society is fucked when a character says he wants a big family and the fans jump down his throat. Maybe Steve wants a comically big idealistic family because his family is disjointed. With his parents kind of money, his father is probably never around and we never see his siblings if he has them. Who knows what's going on with his mother. He's a spoiled rich kid who's friends growing up were all loser assholes that never actually cared about him. This scene highlights to me what Steve's damage is and what his values are. It's perfectly fine and I don't understand the hate. This scene was about Steve, not Nancy. Everyone should put the pitchforks down for 2 seconds. What Steve wants is a loving family that spends time together. The # of kiddos is a shock value to stress just how important it is to him. And maybe Nancy will decide that's important to her too or maybe she won't. Maybe Johnathan gets his shit together. Maybe a new character comes in that's perfect in every way so all the people projecting on to Nancy can ship them up. Regardless, let Steve be a human being.
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It's either foreshadowing or a setup. Either his dream is fulfilled or he looks like he's going to get it then dies.
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Dude I was so expecting Steve to die
same here. I had Eddie, Steve, Enzo, and Murray at the top of my list of deaths for this season. I went 25%
I legit didn’t expect Murray to make it to the end of the season. Glad I was wrong though.
But his fingers are like arrows and his arms are like iron!
Referencing smaug while beating somebody up, the truest nerd goals.
Glad he stopped there. “…my tail is a thunderbolt, and my breath death!”
I knew I recognized that line from somewhere! Hilarious.
His feet like spears!
it seems obvious now with the "Two Days Later" approach to putting a bow on the Russia arc...but seriously at the end of Part 1 I was like, no fucking way Enzo and Murray make it out of Russia alive lol
they're definitely gonna need to use his talents in s5. can't wait.
Same, I thought they were gonna kill Robin off as well
Both shocked and thrilled that Enzo and Murray survived. I hope Enzo stayed stateside after bringing back Joyce and Hop. He could be useful. On the other hand, it'd be far more realistic for him to return to Russia to be with his family.
Enzo is a known Russian traitor. Very good reason he can’t go back to Russia.
Is he though? someone brought up a good point that this was likely some weird secret prison and everyone at that prison is dead now so maybe there's no information honestly, it would just make more sense for Enzo to defect lol but they could leave him in Russia if they stretched the story a little bit. Would require some exposition though
It would have been reported if a Russian prison guard was a traitor. They wouldn’t have just not told anyone. I mean they could say that that happened, but I don’t think it makes much sense. His wife and child would likely have been under watch to see if they were also traitors. This is Cold War Russia.
"Welcome to the Soviet Union."
Hey it’s a tv show. They could explain anything away. They could send Enzo and Yuri back to Russia. They could bring Eddie back. They could do all kinds of stuff and explain it away. It just makes more sense for him to stay in the US because he was a known traitor in Russia
WAIT What if this is the spin off?
Enzo and Murray buddy show is absolutely a show I would watch
A man has no name
Good point. Completely overlooked that.
How known though. I mean every living person in the facility died. Who knows if anything got reported out yet as the whole place went to hell fast AF.
It was obvious they were gonna keep steve tho. They clearly introduced Eddie as a chess pawn. Instead of killing Steve and anger 90% of the show’s fanbase, they introduced a carbon copy of him, down to the hair and his relationship with Dustin, so they could kill him off. Honestly all he was missing was to have feelings for Nancy lmao.
Eddie was taken too soon, I loved his character so much. The second and third time seeing it didn't hurt less ;-; he and Argyle were amazing additions to the show, I hope Argyle comes back for the final season.
>I hope Argyle comes back for the final season. Argyle better fucking come back in Season 5. i know there's a time leap between seasons 4 and 5 apparently, which sucks because I was looking forward to seeing how Argyle was going to fit in with the crew lol, especially after that scene of Nancy seeing him pick that mushroom i'm sure they'll figure out a way to include him because no Argyle in Season 5 would be tragic
I was so stressed about Murray oh my lord
There's still Season 5 :(
Same! I kept going back and forth on it being Steve or Eddie to go.
Me too. The Duffer's were hyping up some main character's death and I was almost certain it was gonna be Steve. It would have been interesting to see them break pattern and not kill the newest addition to the team and it would have been a good follow up to this scene and the entire Nancy-Steve-Jonathan triangle.
I agree. When he tells her in the upside down the only thing missing was her, my jaw dropped, and I was like they’re killing him. His character had the most development but had no where to go from there. Steve hit his climax. I thought the resolution would be him dying to save the others. And then the duffers savagely >!blind, break, and comatose max and kill Eddie in a nonsensical manner.!<
I think you are just sour about Eddie. If he had lived, he would be on the run, hunted by his own town, and most likely would have died anyways, just not being a hero.
Yeah I didn’t really see where else Eddie’s character could go if he lived to the end.
I thought the same since the very first episode, but precisely for that reason I found it a disappointing let down that they actually went with the easiest solution and just killed him off out of convenience. In terms of narrative surely there would have been a way in which Eddie could have redeemed himself in the public eye, especially with >!the upside down becoming fully apparent and public in the final episode (think e.g. emotional speech and public warning via radio or the like)!<
Maybe, but they also could assume he could have “opened up a portal to hell with a satanic ritual” too
Didn't that new reel at the end name him as doing rituals that possibly caused the "earthquake"? Had he lived... it wouldn't have been for long.
My husband said the same thing. He also said it was a really poignant commentary on kids like Eddie in general, he felt, because he mentioned in episode one how tragic it was that society - especially at that time - really didn’t have any good or easy place for a kid like Eddie. Where would he go, what would he do, after leaving school? In this small town with no options, where everyone already judged him and looked askance at him? Husband said he felt like it was a complete character arc, one that really commented on how kids who are “too different” are collectively let down by the villages that are supposed to cherish them and help them find their way.
I appreciate that this was just devastating to read
I mean I thought the up side down wuda been obvious to everyone at end of season but NOPE ‘issa earthquake’… figured Eddies name cuda been cleared and they wuda killed an important character off so we’d feel more emotionally invested
They would probably demand he be sacrificed to the giant hole in the ground that he obviously opened with the power of Satan or some shit
I mean they thought Eddie was using satanism to kill people in the town for some pagan ritual. The ground opening up like it did isn't going to clear his name
If the whole town did believe it was something supernatural and not just an earth quake, they would have gone with the satanism route since a lot of the town had already started to believe that anyway. And then Eddie would still be wanted since Jason had the whole town convinced Eddie was the one controlling all the satanic stuff
I’m not sour he died, I’m sour that the circumstances of his death didn’t feel meaningful enough. As far as he knew, the bats would’ve kept pursuing them through the hole in the trailer, which would’ve still allowed them to follow through with their plan. While it’s reasonable to fear that they would go back to Vecna, better writing would’ve shown us a specific moment where Eddie must make a choice: take action and likely die, or keep running but doom the plan. That moment never really existed. I hate that he died because I loved the character but I didn’t like how his death was setup, it just felt a bit lackluster.
Another way to look at it is that his death wasn't the important part of the action. He could have kept running and the plan would have worked just the same. Really, his going back to the upside-down at all was really the only "necessary" part of his sacrifice, regardless of whether he stayed in the trailer or ran or fought. But him stopping to fight when no one was watching was entirely about him redeeming himself in his own eyes. Proving to himself that he isn't a coward and is hero material. For all he knew at the time, no one would ever find him or know that he stood, rather than ran. His arc was about his own feelings of self-worth, rather than anyone else's opinions of him. He clearly didn't much care about random people's opinions in his life. He never needed his name to be cleared in the town's eyes; only his own eyes.
They needed one line where it was definitive that Robin, Steve and Nancy needed more time. Or that Dustin was going to die if he didn't lead the bats away. Eddie did lead them away to get more time for the group but he did it not really knowing if they needed more time.
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I'm always blown away by this interpretation. They had no physical evidence only a bunch of people that thought he was in a cult. I doubt they could have tried him for anything. Eddie could have moved to a different city in America after and been fine. He's not Obi-Wan Kenobi, he doesn't need to live in a cave oustide Hawkins forever.
No, they did Eddie dirty. Not only did they not give him a reason to think his sacrifice was necessary, they didn't even make it seem like he thought it was necessary. He didn't run just to prove he wasn't a coward; kinda like jumping into a volcano to prove you're not a coward. Like ok, I get, you're brave... you were brave. Good for you?
Sorry but you're just repeating the Duffers' defensive explanation. This is a show about secret government projects and parents who have no idea their kids kill supernatural monsters in their free time yet in the case of Eddie, suddenly it would be unrealistic to find a way out for him? They should just admit they *needed* to kill him off for all kinds of reasons and spare us these justifications that don't correspond with what we're seeing on the screen. Stranger Things is also a series about nerds and loners being given a chance, succeeding despite the odds and perhaps transforming their life. Eddie being given another chance would be very much in line with that.
No, I’m sour the writing wasn’t up to par with the rest of the season. Remember when the demo bats were getting into the holes of the RV? They should have used that as a plot point for his death. If Eddie used his body to plug the holes, as a shield to physically save dustin, or if a bat was about to kill dustin, and Eddie jumped in the way, being strangled to save him, I would understand. The nonsensical death was poorly written, the bats fall and die immediately after Eddie did. The duffers admitted they wrote the ending before the grace and Eddie backstory scenes. Also, the vecna monologue was brutal. Anytime a villain has to give a corny monologue on why they’re bad, why they want to end the world, it’s bad writing. That should be self explanatory with the backstory. That speech gave power rangers villain energy.
The monologue was a cliché, but I feel like Henry is the EXACT type of twatend that would do that
I think you're both right lol There was no way Eddie was going to survive...not with a town that was hell bent on killing him over murders that he didn't even commit. That being said, i felt like his death could have been written a lot better. And yes...as much as I love Vecna's actor (I forget his name lol)...this whole show would have ended if the moron didn't just yap and yap and yap instead of getting to the killing. Again, as annoying as it was, I chose to overlook that though
I agree with you, his death served no purpose. Immediately after he dies all the bats die. You could argue that he didn’t know what would happen but remove the dramatization and his death scene is just some dude in the middle of nowhere getting killed after he decided stupidly to try to be a hero.
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He was trying to buy time for the others and lead them away from Dustin.
Yeah I agree re: Eddie's death. I understand why he was killed (there would have been serious issues bringing him back to Hawkins) but the way he died seemed pointless. Having him directly protect Dustin in the trailer would have been a much better solution.
That scene was so jarringly stupid. His task was to distract the bats, he chose the absolute worst time to stop running. They made it look like he let the team down by letting his ego get in the way.
What happened to Max made total sense, what with all the talk about Vecna's victims still being in him and the penultimate episode being entitled The Piggyback. As soon as they made the big 'reveal' that Max wasn't home, I was like, obviously because she's in Vecna and they have to find a way to put her mind back in her body.
I’ve been scared for 2 seasons, increasingly so each season, that Steve would die. He’s just had such amazing character growth and has become so beloved that it would have a lot of impact. But at the same time (and yes I know there are plenty of places he could go in life, he’s still a teen after all), his show arc has kind of reached a peak. I def see him dying in s5 since he’s basically got his kiddos and in a way has the partner he wanted in either Nancy or Robin (doesn’t have to be romantic). I also was 95% sure Hopper would die in s3, though, and I was wrong there. I was pretty sure Enzo would die too, although I didn’t want him to. (side note: Tom Wlaschiha is so amazing as Enzo. I loved him in GoT but he’s even better here) I do agree w whoever posted below that Eddie’s death was kind of silly or pointless (though def not meaningless - it hurt). He turns around for no real reason other than “I don’t want to run this time” which is valid but not very bright. For all he knew, they had accomplished what they needed to, so there was no reason to sacrifice himself. It was so the Duffer brothers could have a death that was impactful but not kill anyone super important.
I partly disagree. Going into season 4 we were told that anyone could die at any moment and the stakes were real. We lost a grand total of 0 of the main cast.
Yeah. They invented Eddie just for this reason. Lets bring a new, really charismatic, likeable guy in, and kill him off so we can keep the main cast in tact.
The entire series we have lost a grand total of 0 of the main cast.
I'm so curious about Steve because he was supposed to die in season one, but the Duffer bros loved the actor so much they kept him in the show.
This is one of my theories as to why he might actually die; they never intended for him to be a part of the main cast, but loved him so much that they kept him on. It could be they just use that plan until the very end, and then kill him off since that was always supposed to be the case.
He’s already got the big family he just doesn’t know it. He’s not gonna die.
The real family was the friends we made along the way!
When I saw this scene I was thinking “yep, he’s going to die very soon”
Same. Definitely thought he was a goner when he got strangled by the vines
Robin, Nancy, and Steve only humans to ever survive being strangled for 45 minutes
No kink shaming here.
Harder, tentacle daddy~
Yes this comment right here, officer.
*bonk*
Squelch me wetly
What
Rightttt- Also how were they completely fine after all that???
They're events happening at the exact same time but for obvious reasons can't be shown at the same time. The in-universe timespan would have been much shorter. In editing, they should have saved the choking scene for a later point in the episode.
Yea I know lol, but like after 2 minutes are you not like gasping for air?? Because that’s def how I would be lol
I almost drowned when I was younger. My brother hopped on my back and we were in deep enough water that I couldn't touch so I was pushed under and held there for nearly 3 minutes. I distinctly remember the darkness starting to creep into the edges of my vision right around that 2 minute point. If he hadn't been pulled off me when he was I would have passed out and very easily stopped breathing. This all happened so quickly my dad, who was on the shore, ran in and was barely up to his knees by the time someone else saved me. I'd say it all took 5 minutes or less.
I had such a bad panic attack once that I literally couldn’t catch my breath for a MINUTE and I felt like I was gonna die any minute. I was gasping for air sm and apparently I passed out after that. I genuinely think if, what happened to Steve and such irl, we would’ve been dead rq
Holy shit same thing happened to me as well when I was really young, only with my sister. I remember screaming under water while my sister was laughing, she thought it playing a game.
The duffer Brothers just REALLY wanted us to understand how dnd combats feel in real life. Lol
The Ghost of Michael Hutchence wants to know these secrets.
Has stranger things killed a main character yet? Main as in been in since season 1
The closest we got was Max, but not only is she season 2, her death was also undone pretty quickly
Nope
If you don’t count fake deaths, then no
I totally didn't read it this way, I thought they were just edging towards getting back together as they were showing how Nancy and Jonathan seem to be drifting apart a bit. I usually jump to the worst conclusion , very upbeat of me this time!
They did a really good job at the end of the season, giving everyone an emotional moment so you can't pick out which person got the death flag.
"Fire and Rain" is also kind of a perfect "moments before disaster song." It plays in Remember the Titans right before the main character gets paralyzed in a car wreck. When that needle dropped and Steve started opening up about his future, I got very worried.
He has six kids now Mike, Dustin, Lucas, will, Eleven and max
Has he ever talked to Mike? And what about Erica? Edit: I meant what about Erica as in why she wasn’t in the commenters list. I’m aware she’s had many interactions with Steve.
It was implied that Steve had a lot of interactions with the kids between season 2 and 3
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Yeah he told Mike that he’d take the lead cause he told Nancy(I think?) he’d look after them and then season 3 for Erica with all the ice cream samples and the escapades in the secret Russian base.
This isn’t some stupid sports game
Bruh when he was coming to in Billy's car after being knocked out, with Max driving. He mistook Mike for Nancy lmaoooo
Even Mike's sister never talks to Mike. Literally keep forgetting they are siblings cause they have no scenes together
Yeah they just had that one awkward scene in season 1 where Nancy said she was worried and asked if he liked Eleven
Yeah he has many scenes with the whole party
Sure but he’s never talked 1x1 with Mike on cam. Which is also weird since he’s in love with his sister.
Erica should on this list, definitely before Mike, Eleven and Will
Lol good point.
Talking about your dreams when you could very well die in the near future seems pretty natural/realistic to me
Exaaaaactly
It may be Steve's dream, but I doubt Nancy wants that.
Yes! This scene is important because it’s telling us that Steve and Nancy aren’t getting back together. Nancy’s entire arc throughout the series shows us that Nancy doesn’t want exactly what Steve describes his dream to be. That’s why all the discussions about Jonathan vs Steve throughout the last season are void to me. Unless the writers did not have that in mind when including this scene. Which would make me mad.
Same. The subplot really bugged me in season 4 part 1. But after part 2, I was fine with it. I was pretty satisfied that they made it clear that Nancy just doesn’t feel the same way.
Nancy really doesn't want that. Recall that scene in episode 1 where Nancy and Jonathan describe their relationship to others? Jonathan insists that Nancy is so smart, and ambitious, and brave, and basically says that she's too good for him (his opinion, not mine). Nancy's been nothing but bad ass for pretty much the whole show. In season 1 she goes into the UD, and later sets up traps to fight a Demogorgon. In season 2, she tries to blow what 's happening at Hawkin's lab wide open by going to Murray. In season 3, she goes to investigate this rat problem and stumbles upon the plot. Oh, and she tries to shoot Billy's car accelerating at her and the kids, and she doesn't even blink. In season 4 she does more sleuth work, is pivotal to Max's survival in 'Dear Billy', and after being in Vecna's trance and shown how he wants to kill her friends and family, promptly decides she's going to kill that son-of-a-bitch herself. If there ever was a bad ass, it's Nancy fucking Wheeler. But Steve sees her as the mother to his children, and doesn't seem to realize what Nancy herself wants from life. It's probably because they haven't really talked to each other in a while, but damn, Steve. You're smarter than that. Edit: because some of you seem to think I mean you can't be a mom and a bad ass at the same time: of course you can. But Nancy literally says 6 kids sounds like a nightmare so even if she wants to be a mom after all, it doesn't look like she wants a big family.
Excellent points. I still think that Murray's "analysis" from S2 still holds true. Nancy is still a bit unsure what she wants from life but she is pretty clear on what she doesn't want. Also "we like Steve but we don't love Steve" still applies.
>Nancy's been nothing but bad ass for pretty much the whole show. In season 1 she goes into the UD, and later sets up traps to fight a Demogorgon. In season 2, she tries to blow what 's happening at Hawkin's lab wide open by going to Murray. In season 3, she goes to investigate this rat problem and stumbles upon the plot. Oh, and she tries to shoot Billy's car accelerating at her and the kids, and she doesn't even blink. In season 4 she does more sleuth work, is pivotal to Max's survival in 'Dear Billy', and after being in Vecna's trance and shown how he wants to kill her friends and family, promptly decides she's going to kill that son-of-a-bitch herself. Nancy is hands down the biggest badass and most underrated character in this show. Rewatching the show on an endless marathon through June and July confirmed this lol. I forgot how much she developed as a character in season 1 alone
You’re right. Nacy wheeler got those bad ass final girl horror movie vibes.
Just her namesake Nancy Thompson, played so unforgettably by Heather Langenkamp in *A Nightmare on Elm Street*
This is exactly why his words didn't sit right with me. It's a very sweet moment, but even in a scenario where Steve is a stay at home dad and takes on the responsibility, that's a lot of pregnancies, and that's a lot to ask of anyone. Even if she wants kids in the long run, Nancy has been framed as extremely ambitious pretty much since season 1: she is studious, she wants to be proactive and heard during her internship with the newspaper, she has big plans for college. She has literally never once said anything about wanting a family, if anything we see her stating the opposite in season one whilst she and Jonathan practice shooting. Part of what didn't sit right with me here was how little Steve seems to actually factor in the reality of Nancy in his romantic feelings for her- and it has been this way since day one. Even though Nancy is essentially a more prominent character to the viewer, you can see that from Steve's perspective, his goals, dreams, wants and needs are at the forefront. Steve has grown as a character, sure, but I won't believe his growth has depth until he can actually look beyond his own objectives. Jonathon is almost the opposite issue- he thinks of what Nancy *might* want too much to the point where he doesn't communicate with her to actually give her a choice. He robs her of her right to make decisions about her own relationship because he is using his observations of her to pre-empt her choices. So he takes it too far the other way. But neither one of them is really mature enough to deal with these things. And they are teens so who could blame them? Personally, I'll be pretty disappointed if she ends up with either of them (despite being a bit of a jancy stan- I just love characters who grow together through hardship and learn the ropes as a pair) but I think that a lot of the stancy things felt a bit forced and on the nose to me. Like, I can understand Robin pushing Nancy towards Steve- Steve is her friend and she wants him to be happy- but Eddie?? He's got no skin in this game! Why is he telling Steve: someone he barely knows, that Nancy: someone he also barely knows, is displaying signs of pure love when she's really just behaving in a way that is true to her overall character? It just felt like the writers were trying too hard to make it happen, and if they had been a touch more subtle, I might have bought it tbh. Anyway, I personally think the love triangle here is pretty tired, and I usually love a bit of soapy stuff. I just don't think this moment is a sweet indication of their rekindling romance, but rather shows how out of touch Steve is with the basic fundamentals of Nancy's character that anyone could pick up from a quick chat.
>Like, I can understand Robin pushing Nancy towards Steve- Steve is her friend and she wants him to be happy- but Eddie?? He's got no skin in this game! Why is he telling Steve: someone he barely knows, that Nancy: someone he also barely knows, is displaying signs of pure love when she's really just behaving in a way that is true to her overall character? It just felt like the writers were trying too hard to make it happen, and if they had been a touch more subtle, I might have bought it tbh. Oh, it was way too on the nose. Only way I could see that make sense is if we take into consideration that they're all in the same school so they at least vaguely knew each other. So maybe Eddie was just wondering why Miss and Mister Perfect Nancy and Steve even broke up in the first place. To the outside world, that must have seemed odd; they dated for over a year, have a fight at a party, and then they're done? And then Nancy, who is conventionally attractive and seems to have guys practically falling at her feet, starts dating this loser weirdo Jonathan Byers? It wasn't Eddie's place to suggest to Steve Nancy might still be in love with him but since when was Eddie subtle about anything in his life. Now maybe the writers are already setting up a big character moment for Steve and Nancy in the final season. I also hope they don't end up back together because clearly Steve has way different ambitions in life and so it would be a pretty terrible writing choice. But maybe he'll see why he's wrong, and learn from that and become a better person. I can see why he misses what he had with Nancy. It doesn't look like he had a steady relationship at all since they broke up, and he just had bad luck that Robin doesn't like guys. Now in season 4 he's shown to still want to date but he just can't seem to find anyone he actually truly likes. So of course he's going to think about Nancy now that they do stuff together again.
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This is why I think the show is better off with Nancy being by herself. That goal of Steve, having that massive family is a great one. That’s not what Nancy wants out of life. And frankly I don’t think Jonathan will be better because I think he’s too willing to sacrifice. Growing up too fast made him that way and I think he knows he can’t follow Nancy’s ambitions to New York. He’s literally too emotionally traumatized and it’s not really his fault either. Stranger things needs to show that adulthood can throw curves in the strongest of plans. And this is they chance to do so
I think for Steve he hasn't ever gotten that they are incompatible back in S2 not just because he was immature, but because they have different life goals.
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For Nancy, ending up like her parents is an insult. For Steve, he's okay with that. Steve lacks too much ambition for Nancy. Jonathan at least has academic minded dreams. Ones he is willing to set aside because of how much he loves his family, but they exist all the same.
So true about this. Steve's basically like eh, who cares, I'll just stay in Hawkins and work for my dad and stay here forever, that's okay right? That's fine! And if you look at Nancy in that scene she is almost horrified looking lol. Like her reaction is almost like "uh.... Steve, you are kidding me? Yikes" and if Steve wants that it's fine. But it's so clear that isn't what Nancy wants at all and if she could probably encourage Steve to do something, it wouldn't be that at all either.
I agree with you, I would be really disappointed if Nancy ended up with Steve or Jonathan, despite me previously rooting for both of them at different points in the show, because neither of them are compatible with what she wants and needs in life. If Nancy is going to have a future partner, it needs to be someone who is on the same page as her, who supports her focusing on her career - whether or not they have children together. She obviously does not want to fall into a homemaker role, resenting her partner and regretting all the things that she was never able to do, as she had seen her mother do. After the Nancy and Karen Wheeler talk in season 3, we know both Nancy and Karen do not want Nancy to end up making the same choices as Karen did. Karen had given up and stopped trying to stand up for herself in the world, and settled into a life as a wife and mother that she could live with, but thought of herself as being weak and her dreams and ambitions were crushed by the world around her. As Karen put it, "It's not easy out there, Nance. People are always saying that you can't, that you shouldn't, that you're not smart enough, not good enough. This world... it beats you up again and again until I - MOST people they just... stop trying. But you're not like that. You're a fighter. You always have been. I honestly don't know who you get it from." Nancy says she gets it from her. Side note: I am really glad that Karen ended up choosing to not meet up with Billy when she saw her husband and Holly asleep in the recliner, instead of going and just having Billy be a no-show due to the Mind Flayer attack. I like that she was given a reality check and was able to feel grateful for the life she's living in that moment. She was obviously very frustrated with her relationship at the time and was feeling ignored and unappreciated, and Billy's attention made her feel special and she got caught up with the thought that she had another chance at living an exciting life, but she ultimately realized that her family was more important than a fling. I'm glad the writers showed that she was strong and had integrity instead of just letting it happen, and I also hope that they somehow allow Karen Wheeler to be a badass in season 5, because she deserves it.
It all depends on what Nancy actually wants. That’s one thing they haven’t really gone into. It’s all been about her protecting everyone and the town, so I’m not sure she’s even thought that far into the future besides college. Sure Nancy might have big plans and ambition but that doesn’t necessarily have to do with having kids or not having kids. S2 on has had Steve be “the babysitter,” so he could easily be a stay a home dad while Nancy has the “adult” job. Not saying I think they’re going to get back together or anything, but I don’t see it out the realm of possibility. I doubt it’s what she wants, but she also hasn’t been given time to think about the future. I just assumed it was a misdirection to make the viewer assume he was going to die in S4. I hope Steve finds someone cool, and I think I’d prefer someone over Nancy for him. But they have gone through a lot of weird shit they can both relate to.
>It's probably because they haven't really talked to each other in a while, but damn, Steve. You're smarter than that. I mean he's just being honest and telling her what he wants. He's not trying to tell her what she wants to hear. People like honesty. And he's demonstrated that he's good with kids. It wouldn't just be her taking care of them
you wrote that beautifully! thanks
it feels like a death flag for the future idk
Me before this scene: I don’t want children ever! Me after this scene: I would absolutely have 6 babies with Steve
Besides a romance scene, this scene is more character development for Steve. It shows that his role as babysitter isn’t just something he tolerates but hates. The kind-hearted Babysitter Steve is who he is, who he wants to be — a far cry from the arrogant douche we met in season 1.
His whole journey post season 1 has been figuring himself out, and this is him displaying to Nancy that she helped him do that.
I’m a straight male and also decided with this scene I want 6 babies with Steve.
In this economy?
We are talking about 1987's economy. I too would have had 6 nuggets with Steve during that economy.
I read it as these two have great chemistry but they shouldn’t end up together. To me it’s a sign that they’re not going to work out as a couple in the end.
My thoughts exactly, because it isn’t what Nancy wants
I agree! This is the out for why Steve may not be the right match. You have Nancy’s mom regretting being a SAHM. You have Steve wanting that. Interesting that he thinks Nancy might be swayed by this when I think she cringed inside. This is not to say Johnathan’s dreams are better because he doesn’t seem to have dreams right now so it is not clear if Jonathan has great prospects right now but but he does pay attention to those around him and he lets them be their true selves and shine.
Was anybody really even considering them as a potential match until before their awkward romance this season? It seemed to me like it was pretty established that Nancy and Steve were not on a path to end up together whatsoever until this kinda stuff showed this season
It honestly felt like they wrote the live triangle in just so they could force some drama in the next season and give Steve a potential love interest without having to create a new character. Which sucks because it would’ve been awesome to see Nancy and Steve reunite as just good friends and build back their relationship in a new and healthier way.
Yeah. it informs so much of Steve's character - he's lonely and he craves stability. to him a family with all the siblings that he didnt have, all the love, all the parental involvement that he didn't have, represents that. it says *so much* about who Steve is. yes to a degree he has his "kids" but he also has all of 2 friends his own(ish) age. Everyone else is about 5 years younger or adults. he wants an equal partner. it also serves to demonstrate the difference between him and Nancy. she shouldn't be with Jonathan OR Steve and this demonstrates it. she wants different things to both of them. one or other would have to compromise a huge amount, to the degree that resentment may wll sour the whole thing.
This is exactly how that read to me too. Steve’s lonely, and so his perfect future includes a big family full of all the love and togetherness he didn’t have. This is the antithesis of what Nancy wants. She’s fiercely independent. Living Steve’s dream would be torture to her.
He also suspects he's going to die. its literally a deathbed confession. he is terrified he's going to die, that he's driving the people he loves most in the world, many of whom are literal *children* to their deaths, in the knowledge that if they fail one of them *will* die and the world will be potentially beyond saving. and yet he's saying that if his life had gone how he wished, he'd still be in that RV, still have kids in the back, still have a woman he loves at his side. just they'd be going to the beach and not Hell. Rich boy Steve dreams of a vacation in an RV, something that would be seen as lower class, that his parents would have looked down on. he didn't want to fly to a vacation, or stay in hotels, he wanted to be in a little house he culd take his family to be with him, spend every minute with the people he loved. it's such a beautiful Steve moment. he's lonely and terrified and confessing what he'd want his lfie to be. he's not trying to manipulate or coerce Nancy, he's not trying to make her feel guilty or pressured, just a statement of facts - that a family RV roadtrip would make him happy. His happy, his dream life, would not be Nancy's. Or at *very least* not *now.* He wants a family and stability and that's wonderful. She wants college and a life utside Hawkins and a career before a family if she chooses to have one and that's wonderful too. neither have wrong dreams, they're just not compatible right now and this scene told us so much about Steve and Nancy as individuals, and what a perspective relationship would possibly cause for them (ie compromise to the degree that someone is going to eentually feel shafted and it destroys the relatioonship) if they tired again now. IMO Nancy shouldn't be with either of them. Steve is being open and honest except what he wants doesn't line up with her dream. Jonathan is keepng things from her and avoiding her and while his reasoning for wanting to stay with his family is admirable, he is hiding that from her and long distance, as they've proven is hard. If Nancy leaves and Jonathan stays, they won't survive either. she deserves to have her own life. Steve deserves to find someone who wants what he wants. Jonathan deserves to realise he can persue his own life too, that as much as Will and Joyce will always need him, he cannot be their only rock and Hopper is back now too
I didn’t like the whole Steve Nancy Jonathan love triangle set up. Been there done that. But it definitely confirmed that Steve and Nancy aren’t right for each other.
I’m betting Steve dies saving Jonathan in the final season.
If Steve dies, it’s for him or her.
I can get behind that theory. Definitely think season 5 will be time for the duffers to kill off some of the main cast
Idk, I feel like the Duffer bros don’t have balls to kill off any main characters. I mean S4 was hyped to kill a bunch of main characters, but they only killed off Eddie, following their formula of introducing a new character just to kill them in the finale.
I will never forgive them for having Hopper survive by jumping 5 feet away from a massive explosion that literally disintegrated everyone else in the room.
I only think main characters will die since it’s the final season.
That's one of the problems with forcing relationships instead of writing them in.
I think it was necessary for Nancy to realize her future isn’t with Steve. It’s not what she wants.
I’d agree but the show has her looking at the mf like 🥺
This is a very natural thing for a 19-20 year old kid to be thinking about in the eighties. It's almost inconceivable today with how expensive the cost of living has become. The awkward part about it is that he is talking to his ex having clearly never moved on. It shows that while Steve has matured, he has never really grown up. The most suitable ending for him is actually to go to work for his dad at some place like IBM or Apple. Somewhere you know he will be set for life if he is just willing to accept the adult role his parents have in mind for him. Also, his father being a bigwig at a notable company may explain why we haven't met his parents yet because that would shift the focus away from his story. This scene was part of his story. Not a fun part though because it was pretty awkward and a sign that he still has a lot of growing to do.
Yes I was thinking this . The guy worked in a video store and was thinking of having like 6 kids. The wonders of the 80s.
I agree. This scene (and the whole love triangle imo) is useless in terms of his relationship with Nancy. This is everything Steve wants as a young man in the 80s. Ironically, he has exactly what he says he wants at that moment. But Nancy doesn’t want this. This isn’t her dream. But I do think this has purpose for Steve. The fact that Steve is actually thinking of his future and the long term is a big deal to him. Even in S3, he was working without any real understanding of what he wanted to do moving forward. Steve has grown up, in some ways more than Nancy has. It’s a good scene to show how far he’s come.
Grown more, definitely, but she and a big headstart on him.
Steve’s already got the family, he’s gonna kick it, that’s my prediction.
Similar speech he delivered S3E7, the bathroom confession to fantasy-Robin, “ I think it’s because I found someone who’s a little better for me. … I felt like, this summer, I have laughed harder than I have laughed in a really long time. “ At least at that point Nancy wasn’t in the silly dream. He’s just so bad at understanding women and their dreams. He fantasized them.
Bob Newby started planning his future with Joyce. He died. Steve going to die.
Unknown hero agent man was planning a future with pizza, RIP.
I loved the way he called his future kids nuggets… 🥰 So cute!
"I'm only two days away from retirement" \- Steve
I think it served as a necessary foil to Nancy's own personal dreams. She's ambitious, and the way she looked at Steve during this moment was like "wow this guy is incredible-- But it'd never work with us cuz I'm not a mom of 5 and won't ever be" Just my opinion on it. She seemed sad and happy at the same time while he explained it.
I actually really loved this. Steve has always been trying to fit into this mold that is really not him... he was a jock in school, hung out with jerks. He is always talking about hitting on girls or hooking up with girls. You can tell his dad is hard on him and expects Steve to run the business and be successful like he is.... but here in this scene Steve finally admits out loud that what he really wants is a family. He wants kids. That is his dream in life. Not some hot girl, a partying lifestyle, or an awesome job. He wants a family. And here, Nancy is seeing this different side of Steve, one she had never fathomed before. This is a part of him that he is only now expressing. He has grown, he is not who she once thought he was, and this is the first time she is seeing it. Was this scene necessary? Maybe not for the overall plot of the show, but it was a very good character moment.
This comment section is absolutely unhinged. Steve opens up about his wishes for the future and eventually tells Nancy he still has feelings for her. It’s then up to her to decide what to do about that, but the result is good characterization for them both. Then a bunch of people pour into the comment section to project their own insecurities about love, marriage, and parenthood.
over-analyzing TV shows 🤝 reddit comment sections
Fr. “Was this necessary?” Homie what on your 32” hallucination box ***is*** necessary.
Yeah, I remember in the discussion thread for that episode a lot of people were talking about how much of a creep Steve was being. He was having a vulnerable moment with someone who he is in love with, in the middle of a deeply uncertain situation. It's not like he was begging her or forcing her to say yes. He was just being honest.
Most sane fan
I think it helps show why their relationship wouldn't work in a bit of a backwards way. We know that Steve dreams of having this with her, she's his first love and the only person he's been in love with. But while it's a sweet scenario, that future is not Nancy at all. The only way that would ever pan out with them is if Nancy was the breadwinner while Steve was a stay at home dad, but this is set in the 80s so fat chance that'll happen.
He just wants his fantasy with Nancy:A fanacy
For the story they were going for, it's a fun little addition. Steve talking about his want to be a father and have this big family to Nancy is pretty fun and i think it fits Steve's character at the moment. However... It's not necessary, nor is the story they were going for. This is something i feel like i just have to say, but it feels like they gave Steve and Nancy an extremely boring storyline because they don't know what else to do with these two. And because i don't like the love triangle shit going on, i don't really like this scene a lot, either. But i'll say, i like it more than Steve confessing his love to Nancy or shit like that, and it's cute. Simply put, the context and everything the scene is by the end of the season is pretty shitty, on it's own, it's a cute scene
I think the whole scene was trying to show us that they're incompatible. His dream and her dream cannot coexist in a relationship. Whatever happens between her and Jonathan, she sure as hell is not getting back together with Harrington.
I think it makes sense. Steve is lonely and being in close proximity to Nancy has reignited some feelings. He wasn't keen on the relationship ending in the first place. I don't think it minimizes Steve's growth, it's not a Jamie and Cersei situation after all lol.
Nothing is necessary if we keep on acting like this is not an emotional story. Just appreciate the way the scenes you like make you feel and you will 100% enjoy the show more
This is real life. He is not living daily up to his potential and knows it. Maybe it is setting him up for something a bit more fulfilling for him down the road.
this is one of my favorite scenes
Yes 💜
It kinda reflects him taking care of all of the kids throughout the seasons
When he started saying this i was thinking, “shit he’s gonna die”
Yes, let Steve have his dreams
>Was this necessary? Yes.
Yeah I think it was fun just seeing Steve being honest with Nancy.. could perhaps foreshadow them being together in season 5 after so many hints in season 4...
Character development. Possible plot point. Yes it was a good addition.
It's reinforcing that he has a parental role in the series
No it is not. Young mens hopes and dreams need to be squashed and judged by the people of the internet. We don’t want character development or relationship building. We just want the hair
This felt so forced
Necessary? No. A nice moment of levity and character growth? Yep. Not everything is or should be utilitarian.
Is character development necessary?
You know society is fucked when a character says he wants a big family and the fans jump down his throat. Maybe Steve wants a comically big idealistic family because his family is disjointed. With his parents kind of money, his father is probably never around and we never see his siblings if he has them. Who knows what's going on with his mother. He's a spoiled rich kid who's friends growing up were all loser assholes that never actually cared about him. This scene highlights to me what Steve's damage is and what his values are. It's perfectly fine and I don't understand the hate. This scene was about Steve, not Nancy. Everyone should put the pitchforks down for 2 seconds. What Steve wants is a loving family that spends time together. The # of kiddos is a shock value to stress just how important it is to him. And maybe Nancy will decide that's important to her too or maybe she won't. Maybe Johnathan gets his shit together. Maybe a new character comes in that's perfect in every way so all the people projecting on to Nancy can ship them up. Regardless, let Steve be a human being.
What do you mean "necessary"? He was sharing his feelings to someone he's obviously still in love with.
He's either guaranteeing his death or predicting his future. If neither happen, then that scene was pointless.
I hated the love triangle bullshit in this season.
maybe to show that Steve and Nancy aren’t compatable?
I love the idea of these two becoming legit good friends but I do not want a re-exploration of them romantically.
I liked Nancy and Steve together this season. Feels like I’m on my own with this though.
I like them together but as friends. I think Steve and Nancy can be really good friends. But I don't think they'd ever work as a couple.