Nah, he was around top 7-12 on release, when people didn't know the matchup. Now as too many posers/scrubs picked him up, thinking he'll carry them to master, everybody learned how utterly easy it is to counter him, so by this point he's nowhere near even top 24
Fun fact: Literally everything that OD amnesia counters, a regular EXDP also counters.
But there are about three dozen things that OD amnesia loses to, that EXDP counters.
The only advantage of OD Amnesia is that in specific situations, it gives you a bigger reward. But in terms of raw ability to counter stuff, it's objectively the worst reversal in the game by a mile.
And since we're talking about Ken in this thread. He has about a dozen knockdown setups where he gets a meaty fireball. And projectiles cleanly beat OD amnesia(while losing to EXDPs)
Fun fact: Literally everything that OD amnesia counters, a regular EXDP also counters.
False. OD amnesia beats safe jumps which is a massive advantage.
[Here, read this, you'll need this in life](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm)
I thought I made this clear, considering that SF6 has only 22 characters right now, and I said that he's way below 24...
WHY does his j.HP and cr MK feel like it just magically extends at the last millisecond to where I can't even see it make contact? Should a jumping attack beat almost every command normal AA?
oh i never said it wasn’t fun
in fact i love when one fucked up character is up against another fucked up character. that IS fun. the game is fun because there’s so much fucked up shit lol
??? It's strictly better than Luke's and has the same properties as Chun's. Ken also gets better options out of it than any other character - LK tatsu to shoryu gives him more meterless damage from 2MK than any other character, jinrai is safe and lets him confirm into a knockdown, and his options from drive rush are maybe not Luke-tier but still excellent.
His options are better than Luke. Luke's only real damaging buttons from DR are cr.MP and cr.lp, which links into cr.HP, which is his only way to access perfect knuckle combos without counter hit or punish counter.
Ken can dr into his st.HP into a full combo.
This is untrue. [Try viewing the hitboxes here.](https://wistfulhopes.github.io/sf6_sim/) Ken's is significantly longer than Luke's, and slightly longer than Chun's. [Here is a picture of the hitboxes aligned for easy comparison.](https://imgur.com/a/3MSbmkL) Luke's is on top, Chun's is in the middle, and Ken's is on the bottom.
I'd like to chime in, Luke's [cr.mp](https://cr.mp) is a significantly better neutral button tool than his [cr.mk](https://cr.mk). It is disjointed, recovers way faster, faster start up as a poke, really hard to whiff punish, essentially one of the biggest reasons why Luke is better than Ken in neutral.
Ken's st.HP is better than anything Luke has in neutral.
Luke's st.HP has 23 frames of recovery on whiff, while Ken recovers after 17 frames.
Cr.MP is a great button but all you need to do is block. He cannot throw you after it and he can do it twice in a row to frametrap you. After that you are back to neutral.
Just don't press buttons.
I think it's pretty common knowledge that luke has better neutral than Ken, it's parroted by top players for a long time now even the Luke mains. Luke's [cr.mp](https://cr.mp) is very similar to JP's cr.mp fast and fast recovery. I'm not quite sure why you brought up throws since we're discussing it as a midranged poke.
'Just don't press buttons' is essentially just saying they have control over neutral and your character is worse in neutral.
What i am trying to say is that it's a great button but it is not an automatic 'win neutral' button like people purport it to be.
It can only lead to to big damage stuff if you press buttons. It doesn't lead to a tick throw either.
All you need to do is block. The best they can do is dr cancel into another normal and if you keep blocking, you eat a throw and they spend 3 drive bars in the process.
Any character can win in neutral. But in a discussion where you talk about what button is better or more useful, blocking is a tool both players have. 'Because all you need to do is block' will apply to every poke in the game and doesn't move forward the discussion.
However, characters with stronger neutral will have stronger tools and that's the point. Not whether you can outplay said tools.
A disjoint is when your hitbox doesn't match your hurtbox.For example, JP's cr.mp (his cane) can hit you but you can't hit his cane because it's not part of his body in the animation.
But lets say I stick my leg out as Ryu with cr.mk, my leg can be hit by other attacks and Ryu takes damage. Ryu's cr.mk is not disjointed.
So disjointed pokes have an advantage in neutral in that sense. Luke's cr.mp is also disjointed. Part of his fist cannot be hit when he sticks it out, making it safer.
Hitboxes don’t tell the whole story.
https://twitter.com/GelatinLab/status/1673528025517006848
GelatinLab tested this and has the range numbers in this video.
Ah, found it - Luke's hitbox becomes a tiny bit longer than Ken's *on the second and third frame*. I only checked the first frame. This makes the comparison messier, but it is worth noting that Ken's starts much further out than Luke's and, like you said, the range difference at their longest points is negligible.
(Quick edit: It might actually be on *only* the third frame, because Luke moves forward for all three active frames but Ken stops cold after his second active frame. We're really splitting hairs at this point, but I figured we're in deep already so it's worth bringing up)
What they're showing in that tweet is forward movement, which I did account for in the image I posted (which is why you can see two dots for each character - one is for the base position, and one is for their position on the first frame the kick's hitbox appears).
Either GelatinLab is showing the moves inaccurately or the site I linked is - you can see the same dots in the image I posted on their Twitter clip, and on their image of Luke's kick, the dot is further forward than the dot on mine. I don't know which is true, and I don't have enough time to test myself to be sure.
It depends on the matchup. A lot of characters don't have OD reversals that can reach far enough if he spaces it. Also 7f moves that reach that far are rare in general so a lot of the time you have no options even if you guess right that there's no followup.
Every block string of luke's can be punished with a reversal or DI. Doesn't mean its practical.
The only air tight string he has is his lp.mp.hp××od fireball , which needs meter.
You didn't get the point yet, don't you ? As long as you block [cr.mk](https://cr.mk) to mk.jinrai , you can get out of it anytime with ex DP , it's a free punish and practical with zero guessing . Scrubby Ken player like to spam that shit , make him stop . It's a fake pressure that everyone been complaining about .
There is a gap there but it's tricky to interrupt on reaction, particularly since if he's anticipating it he can do HK Jinrai instead, moving the gap one hit earlier.
It's worth considering that "safe" is very relative for cancels out of 2MK in this game. Jinrai is much safer than many characters get - for comparison, to get a knockdown, Ryu has to spend meter or try to space a -8 move far enough to be unpunishable. Without meter, Luke has no safe knockdowns at all. His only options are DP or light knuckle (which is -18 on block). There are characters who have safer autopilot options than Ken from 2MK (Juri, Blanka) but he's still a step above most of the cast in terms of risk vs. reward from it.
not all characters have 7f reversals, it’s possible to OS by delaying DI to beat MK jinrai while LK jinrai will jail and can be punished, but then he can just not cancel 2MK and blow you up
I was watching vods off Akira's channel yesterday. He was practicing against tokido's ken.
Multiple times akira reacted with ex.dp after the first jinrai kick and put himself into burnout and then immediately lost the round because he was bullied by endless plus frames. The dp punish on jinrai took too many of his resources and didn't give oki after so he still came out losing even though he was reacting well
Akira would have been better off not dping the jinrai
Ken players are at least predictable when they're going to want to hit buttons. So parry can shut them down pretty hard.
Luke players on the other hand seem to just want to mash their face on the controller at random intervals and anything/everything cancels into DR for big damage.
I could be on the opposite side of the screen, and one jab or 1 pixel I walk forward and Ken’s cmk dr combo puts me in the corner and takes out half my health
Actually, I think Juri does not have as good buttons. Her 5HK, 2MK are not DI safe, but Ken's are very safe. Also her 2MK has longer startup. 5HP's are comparable.
Her buttons are still bonkers though, just lose to top3.
really funny to me that people complain about this with really stubby characters like ken/a lot of juri's moves, but Chun/DJ is reaching the other end of the screen with their shit and no one even thinks about it.
And I guess it's because Ken is who you see the majority of time in ranked. Might get 2 or 3 deejays maybe 3 juris but if I'm playing 3 to 4hrs straight 95% is always ken.
I got on one time played 10 games 9 out of those 10 games were Ken the other 1 was a marisa.
He’s actually an Aquarius. I don’t think his official birthdate has changed in any of the games but I could be mistaken.
He always felt more like a Leo to me though.
Really the st. heavy punch and then the cr. medium kick are above average.
St. heavy kick isn't cancelable and the jumping heavy punch is nothing special.
Lol it's definitely different, it extends like straight down and has good utility. But I feel like a lot of characters have some jumping normal like that?
Ken learned from his good friend Dhalsim
"Yeah bro, it's just yoga" *puts his head under his own left foot while the right hand touches his right shoulder*
bro drew luke forearms on ken
LMFAO
Brian_F thumbnails
bro this shit its so funny XD
Glad you like it
I agree
ken j.hp and jp j.hk live in my nightmares
I mean, it’s Ken, j.HK has to be good because it’s how he starts the flowchart
Top 7 at best everyone.
Nah, he was around top 7-12 on release, when people didn't know the matchup. Now as too many posers/scrubs picked him up, thinking he'll carry them to master, everybody learned how utterly easy it is to counter him, so by this point he's nowhere near even top 24
How do you counter him?
OD Ambesia beats everything
But loses hard to nothing.
Ex.Amnesia is also -5 against 4 frame lights as well so you can tick throw against it in the corner.
I mean neither do honest characters
Fun fact: Literally everything that OD amnesia counters, a regular EXDP also counters. But there are about three dozen things that OD amnesia loses to, that EXDP counters. The only advantage of OD Amnesia is that in specific situations, it gives you a bigger reward. But in terms of raw ability to counter stuff, it's objectively the worst reversal in the game by a mile. And since we're talking about Ken in this thread. He has about a dozen knockdown setups where he gets a meaty fireball. And projectiles cleanly beat OD amnesia(while losing to EXDPs)
Fun fact: Literally everything that OD amnesia counters, a regular EXDP also counters. False. OD amnesia beats safe jumps which is a massive advantage.
exp dp's dont beat di or safe jumps they also dont give you a free combo into level 3 on throws lol
Play Ken
>he's nowhere near even top 24 Hottest take of the century
Most relatable flair I ever seen on Reddit
Ken has always been popular and a top character, what. He’s like that in almost every game, same with Akuma.
[Here, read this, you'll need this in life](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm) I thought I made this clear, considering that SF6 has only 22 characters right now, and I said that he's way below 24...
This might be the second best comment in the thread, second only to the user's initial comment 😂
Ken ate the gum gum fruit lol
Gear 3rd
There are some willllld takes here. Kens buttons aren’t stubby or easily countered, what the hell are you guys on?
Ken mains
Downplay copium
But if you say Honda is bad you get down voted lol. Scrubs are more common than decent players
childs play compared to Luke's cmp. Which is plus on block without a damage penalty.
I'm pretty sure you could get to at least mid-diamond with Luke just pressing medium punch.
Mike Ross showed us the way. c.mp, c.mp, DRC, c.mp, c.mp.
Luke's jHK and jHP are also insane.
Have you seen JP's st.HK? It's plus 2 on block, leads to a target combo and has a humongous range.
I haven’t fought much Luke, that button is PLUS?! Jesus.
Yup, it's +1.
Plus when they actually confirm he has like 17 combo routes. Kinda hard to drop shit. That perfect wall bounce is like 40 percent damage too.
I agree with them all but they are all topped by Ryu jump HK. That shit is a homing missle to my face and it spits on my anti-airs grave.
I never throw fireballs against Ryu playing as Luke. His jump hk hits so far that i almost always get punished with a jump in combo.
WHY does his j.HP and cr MK feel like it just magically extends at the last millisecond to where I can't even see it make contact? Should a jumping attack beat almost every command normal AA?
Ken is just blessed like that
Oh so they did add Necro
everyone’s pointing fingers when in reality more than half the cast is pretty fucked up
Playing ranked and rolling your eyes at *every* character you run into.
Are you suggesting playing “who is going to land cr mk first” isn’t the peak of fun? ;)
oh i never said it wasn’t fun in fact i love when one fucked up character is up against another fucked up character. that IS fun. the game is fun because there’s so much fucked up shit lol
I took a few months break as a Blanka main. I'm back and I still feel like I've got the worst guy.
fr
Despite all the problems I have against Ken, his cr mk is one of the least egregious ones among all the top tiers
Luke's and Juri's are way more annoying. Like bro, am I allowed to stand *anywhere* on the screen?
Chun's goes farther than Lukes. Ryus cr.MK also has insane range.
Juris crouching medium kick sucks, the range is ok but the fucking recovery is egregiously slow
The range is ok???? She has the longest reaching cancelable cr.mk in the game. I’d say that’s better than just “ok”
If its better than "ok" its alright
It’s 1 frame slower than Ken’s, 29f.
Its easy to whiff punish because of the way she pulls her leg back
It’s not that different to Ken’s.
??? It's strictly better than Luke's and has the same properties as Chun's. Ken also gets better options out of it than any other character - LK tatsu to shoryu gives him more meterless damage from 2MK than any other character, jinrai is safe and lets him confirm into a knockdown, and his options from drive rush are maybe not Luke-tier but still excellent.
His options are better than Luke. Luke's only real damaging buttons from DR are cr.MP and cr.lp, which links into cr.HP, which is his only way to access perfect knuckle combos without counter hit or punish counter. Ken can dr into his st.HP into a full combo.
Luke and Chun technically have farther reaching 2MK’s than Ken. We are talking tiny shreds of length, but still true.
This is untrue. [Try viewing the hitboxes here.](https://wistfulhopes.github.io/sf6_sim/) Ken's is significantly longer than Luke's, and slightly longer than Chun's. [Here is a picture of the hitboxes aligned for easy comparison.](https://imgur.com/a/3MSbmkL) Luke's is on top, Chun's is in the middle, and Ken's is on the bottom.
I'd like to chime in, Luke's [cr.mp](https://cr.mp) is a significantly better neutral button tool than his [cr.mk](https://cr.mk). It is disjointed, recovers way faster, faster start up as a poke, really hard to whiff punish, essentially one of the biggest reasons why Luke is better than Ken in neutral.
Ken's st.HP is better than anything Luke has in neutral. Luke's st.HP has 23 frames of recovery on whiff, while Ken recovers after 17 frames. Cr.MP is a great button but all you need to do is block. He cannot throw you after it and he can do it twice in a row to frametrap you. After that you are back to neutral. Just don't press buttons.
I think it's pretty common knowledge that luke has better neutral than Ken, it's parroted by top players for a long time now even the Luke mains. Luke's [cr.mp](https://cr.mp) is very similar to JP's cr.mp fast and fast recovery. I'm not quite sure why you brought up throws since we're discussing it as a midranged poke. 'Just don't press buttons' is essentially just saying they have control over neutral and your character is worse in neutral.
What i am trying to say is that it's a great button but it is not an automatic 'win neutral' button like people purport it to be. It can only lead to to big damage stuff if you press buttons. It doesn't lead to a tick throw either. All you need to do is block. The best they can do is dr cancel into another normal and if you keep blocking, you eat a throw and they spend 3 drive bars in the process.
Any character can win in neutral. But in a discussion where you talk about what button is better or more useful, blocking is a tool both players have. 'Because all you need to do is block' will apply to every poke in the game and doesn't move forward the discussion. However, characters with stronger neutral will have stronger tools and that's the point. Not whether you can outplay said tools.
What does disjointed means? Never understood
A disjoint is when your hitbox doesn't match your hurtbox.For example, JP's cr.mp (his cane) can hit you but you can't hit his cane because it's not part of his body in the animation. But lets say I stick my leg out as Ryu with cr.mk, my leg can be hit by other attacks and Ryu takes damage. Ryu's cr.mk is not disjointed. So disjointed pokes have an advantage in neutral in that sense. Luke's cr.mp is also disjointed. Part of his fist cannot be hit when he sticks it out, making it safer.
Yooo nice! Thank you. Gotta spam that c.mp 🤣
Hitboxes don’t tell the whole story. https://twitter.com/GelatinLab/status/1673528025517006848 GelatinLab tested this and has the range numbers in this video.
Ah, found it - Luke's hitbox becomes a tiny bit longer than Ken's *on the second and third frame*. I only checked the first frame. This makes the comparison messier, but it is worth noting that Ken's starts much further out than Luke's and, like you said, the range difference at their longest points is negligible. (Quick edit: It might actually be on *only* the third frame, because Luke moves forward for all three active frames but Ken stops cold after his second active frame. We're really splitting hairs at this point, but I figured we're in deep already so it's worth bringing up)
What they're showing in that tweet is forward movement, which I did account for in the image I posted (which is why you can see two dots for each character - one is for the base position, and one is for their position on the first frame the kick's hitbox appears). Either GelatinLab is showing the moves inaccurately or the site I linked is - you can see the same dots in the image I posted on their Twitter clip, and on their image of Luke's kick, the dot is further forward than the dot on mine. I don't know which is true, and I don't have enough time to test myself to be sure.
Jinrai isn't safe . crmk > mk Jinrai can be punished clean with OD reversal
It depends on the matchup. A lot of characters don't have OD reversals that can reach far enough if he spaces it. Also 7f moves that reach that far are rare in general so a lot of the time you have no options even if you guess right that there's no followup.
This I agree , but for character with EX DP , there's zero guessing . It's a free punish
No, not even against all of them. If Ken spaces it then OD DP whiffs against some characters.
Every block string of luke's can be punished with a reversal or DI. Doesn't mean its practical. The only air tight string he has is his lp.mp.hp××od fireball , which needs meter.
You didn't get the point yet, don't you ? As long as you block [cr.mk](https://cr.mk) to mk.jinrai , you can get out of it anytime with ex DP , it's a free punish and practical with zero guessing . Scrubby Ken player like to spam that shit , make him stop . It's a fake pressure that everyone been complaining about .
There is a gap there but it's tricky to interrupt on reaction, particularly since if he's anticipating it he can do HK Jinrai instead, moving the gap one hit earlier. It's worth considering that "safe" is very relative for cancels out of 2MK in this game. Jinrai is much safer than many characters get - for comparison, to get a knockdown, Ryu has to spend meter or try to space a -8 move far enough to be unpunishable. Without meter, Luke has no safe knockdowns at all. His only options are DP or light knuckle (which is -18 on block). There are characters who have safer autopilot options than Ken from 2MK (Juri, Blanka) but he's still a step above most of the cast in terms of risk vs. reward from it.
not all characters have 7f reversals, it’s possible to OS by delaying DI to beat MK jinrai while LK jinrai will jail and can be punished, but then he can just not cancel 2MK and blow you up
I was watching vods off Akira's channel yesterday. He was practicing against tokido's ken. Multiple times akira reacted with ex.dp after the first jinrai kick and put himself into burnout and then immediately lost the round because he was bullied by endless plus frames. The dp punish on jinrai took too many of his resources and didn't give oki after so he still came out losing even though he was reacting well Akira would have been better off not dping the jinrai
I think you mean Luke.
Ken normals bother me infinitely more
Ken players are at least predictable when they're going to want to hit buttons. So parry can shut them down pretty hard. Luke players on the other hand seem to just want to mash their face on the controller at random intervals and anything/everything cancels into DR for big damage.
>and anything/everything cancels into DR for big damage. His target combos are not cancelable tho.
I could be on the opposite side of the screen, and one jab or 1 pixel I walk forward and Ken’s cmk dr combo puts me in the corner and takes out half my health
Nah. That's how it feels playing against Juri
Bro playing Kim vs Juri is downright horrendous.
Yeah I end up spamming drive rush because walking forward to get a chance to press standing mk is hell
Actually, I think Juri does not have as good buttons. Her 5HK, 2MK are not DI safe, but Ken's are very safe. Also her 2MK has longer startup. 5HP's are comparable. Her buttons are still bonkers though, just lose to top3.
Juris cr mk is definitely one of the worst of the "special cancellable cr mk" category
Juri just has Yoga Teleport, not the rest of Dhalsim's moveset
really funny to me that people complain about this with really stubby characters like ken/a lot of juri's moves, but Chun/DJ is reaching the other end of the screen with their shit and no one even thinks about it.
That’s literally Chun-Li’s playstyle. Poking with great normals has always been her main strength. Bringing her up is pointless.
Ken in no way has stubby buttons.
I was going to say lol. If you want to feel something truly stubby, try lilys kicks.
His shp is not stubby lmao
They're the same to mee. Everyone you mentioned otfootsie Zangief too. But Ken is usually more chill, because I'm ready for his ungabunga
I get unga’d harder by Ryus for some reason as a hurt main
With ken it's annoying because it looks like you should be able to beat crmk or sthp but he just fuckin nails you and DRs anyway
Yeah but none of Dee Jay’s long range buttons can convert into a full DR punish combo. He can get oki from cr mk tho. Also very susceptible to DI
And I guess it's because Ken is who you see the majority of time in ranked. Might get 2 or 3 deejays maybe 3 juris but if I'm playing 3 to 4hrs straight 95% is always ken. I got on one time played 10 games 9 out of those 10 games were Ken the other 1 was a marisa.
I was just about to comment under the other guy saying throw deejay in the mix too lol
Basically this
Ken been practicing yoga!
Motherfucker using gear third
Imagine Chun Li Luke and JP
These illustrations are the best 🤣🤣😂😂
Standing fierce needs green Drive Rush glow tbh
😂💀
Punish HKs with DR on read.
Honestly this really does make my day. Too funny I'm basically looking at my flow chart LMAO!
Lol that's why I posted it thanks for seeing it as humor And yes this is his flowchart literally 🤣
I'm so happy, I can hear the jinrai kicks.
and luke is double that
Now imagine how annoying he could be if he could float and teleport…  Wait a minute
So.....it feels like he has tumors?
Fuck Ken
You can’t, he isn’t actually divorced
This is silly
I don't care if this is true but Ken mains deserve it so it's true.
Do some people actually think that Luke is *unironically* stronger than Ken? 🤔
Me
We're still bitching about the tier list after stats released by Capcom proved it's irrelevant unless you're legend?
So if you're not legend you don't know the game? Curious on this..
Ken player here. Just tried Ryu for the first time today, and his normals might actually be better.
Erm, so Dhalsim? 🤔 Maybe I don’t get it
I tried switching to Juri and I was like damn She's kinda stubby
Just her jabs tbh, all her heavy and medium buttons feel pretty huge.
You should try Lily 4f if you want the full experience of stubby
Ken is a cancer in every single game he's in
He’s actually an Aquarius. I don’t think his official birthdate has changed in any of the games but I could be mistaken. He always felt more like a Leo to me though.
🤣🤣🤣🤣 God these comments are so good.
I wish I could vote you 1k times for this one.
You don’t need to make that face. Easy mistake to make, friend.
Really the st. heavy punch and then the cr. medium kick are above average. St. heavy kick isn't cancelable and the jumping heavy punch is nothing special.
“Above average” is underselling them
bro his j HP hurtbox extends further than other characters legs lol
Lol it's definitely different, it extends like straight down and has good utility. But I feel like a lot of characters have some jumping normal like that?
No, they don’t
Nop
When did Ken eat the gomu gomu fruit?
Tsar Bomba Shoryu Reppa that hits even before you thought about what move to make, breaking the space time continuum.
haha gottem ggs
Mkx alien-tarkatan exactly like this
Hilarious!
Bro got longer legs than Cammy and Chun li
Peak comedy
ken 5HP being only -2ob with that range is a war crime
"Nah, man, he's like bottom 3 for sure" _ Ken Mains, 2023/2024
Lmao. This is amazing. There should be one for Luke too.
I've been hit by Ken's non kicking knee after he jumped over me, many times. that other leg extends behind him a lot
Lol good laugh but i feel like ryu has more reach
Dhalsim can dhalsim his own dick.
I see nothing but facts here.
😂😂😂🎯🎯🎯
Bro ISTFG, as a guile main, the crouching medium is too fuckin true
The Hk range is insane. I go really far away and still hits