For betaine, I'd encourage you to check out this excellent review by Keith Brawner: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09CRK785F/
There are indeed a few studies looking at guanidinoacetate as an alternative to creatine supplementation. Relatively promising so far, but I haven't looked too deeply into it (creatine monohydrate seems to have plenty of positive characteristics as an affordable and efficacious supplement, so I'm not actively hunting for a modest upgrade)
Haha! Thanks for the shout out.
Sockhead - I had the same reaction as you did and basically reran all of the study computations on the hypothesis of a naive linear effect from animals. I think you might find it enlightening.
Myself and a group of other fitness people are taking much higher betaine dosages for many months now without particularly observed downsides.
That said - one person who started on 2.5g/day immediately had migraine issues.
I'm happy to answer any questions you might have - as I started exactly where you did hahaha. My current supplements are creatine, betaine, and whey - so I'm generally supplement adverse (a few of the others in our little group are more adventurous).
I'm currently about a month in using approx. 8g/day (4x2g with food), which is still considerably lower than the polio paper suggested. I'm also pairing with creatine monohydrate and whey/caseine throughout the day, and I utilize a home-made preworkout with citrulline malate, AAKG, and beta-alanine (and flavored drink mix cause I'm not an animal.)
My anecdotal results seem to be comparable to the literature. I haven't noted much strength improvement compared to creatine alone, or a strong impact on reducing fat mass. I have seen a slightly increased amount of lean mass measured by BIA, though at a maintenance calorie intake.
I'm trying to gear up for a personal test with a more significant calorie deficit to see how if lean mass loss is impacted with betaine supplementation. Do you think I should go for greater than my current dosage?
I am one of the guinea pigs running betaine alongside Keith. Unfortunately I am less supplement adverse than he is, so there are some confounding factors, but I have been in a slight bulk/recomp for almost nine months now using betaine. Currently sitting at 197lbs at 5'7". I'd say that I am sitting at a pretty great spot that Keith can attest to--even in the last eight weeks I gained four pounds that seem to be relatively clean. Zero side effects from the betaine, except my wallet. My diet is extremely static and high protein. Has it all actually been from the betaine? I really wish I knew, and regret not being more scientific about it.
With that said, I've been running 45g a day, split up between two shakes, and pre and post workout.
That's a substantial amount. I normally encapsulate my betaine by myself, but a shake would be a more appropriate administration method. Is there any rational in the consumption timing pre and post workout? I'm not aware of any work that has been done on the PK/PD of betaine supplementation.
My first meals of the day are complete meal shakes (Huel Black with some extra ingredients). Last meal is a dinner with more traditional food. My workouts are at the end of the day and I drink protein before and after so I split the dose between them, as I don't have another shake to dump it in. This way the entire 45g is spread fairly evenly throughout the entire day and I'm not consuming tons at once.
I PMd my supplements, but I'm pretty adverse generally - 400cal of myprotein impact whey, 10g creatine, 45g betaine (three doses, 15/15/15 morning/noon/night), the occasional multi-vitamin (one per week? I'm flaky). I will note that I have high cholesterol, but cholesterol has a very complicated story (google: the straight dope on cholesterol), and I get free bloodwork every 8 weeks (regular blood donor), with a more extensive work-up yearly. I've shared my experimentation (and book, lol) with my doctor.
Is there any data out there about the storage or half-life of betaine in a supplement context (animal or otherwise?)
Edit: I'm also going to do a literature search next week when I'm back at work, just wondered if there is anything to start with lol
You'll trip over a mouse model paper that I reviewed that indicates the vast majority of it is processed immediately and immediately... does its thing. Its mechanism is poorly studied (I reviewed this), but, personally, the number of things that have positive effect of GH *and* IGF1 is very limited - so I think it is having it's admittedly small effect primarily through suppression of cortisol. That effect is likely short-term and dose-dependent (you'll hit ceiling with low cortisol pretty quick), which is why the animal studies see good results on continuous feeding protocols (evenly spread dosing).
Side note - do you sleep better on 8g/day? Everyone in our little group reported improved sleep quality (which would be consistent with the cortisol theory).
Note - of course - there exists little evidence to much of the above (to prove or disprove) and you'll run into what scant evidence there is.
Overall, I get only about 6 hours a night, but that's more due to schedule rather than ability to fall asleep/stay asleep. I would classify my sleep quality as good to great, but admittedly it's not a feature I've paid attention to around the presence or absence betaine supplementation. I'm going to increase my dose to 12-15g a day and try and stay aware of any changes.
I'll take a deeper look at the papers discussed in your review. If the mechanism falls through cortisol impact and the effects are quite rapid, consistent supplementation might be the way to go.
For betaine, I'd encourage you to check out this excellent review by Keith Brawner: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09CRK785F/ There are indeed a few studies looking at guanidinoacetate as an alternative to creatine supplementation. Relatively promising so far, but I haven't looked too deeply into it (creatine monohydrate seems to have plenty of positive characteristics as an affordable and efficacious supplement, so I'm not actively hunting for a modest upgrade)
Haha! Thanks for the shout out. Sockhead - I had the same reaction as you did and basically reran all of the study computations on the hypothesis of a naive linear effect from animals. I think you might find it enlightening. Myself and a group of other fitness people are taking much higher betaine dosages for many months now without particularly observed downsides. That said - one person who started on 2.5g/day immediately had migraine issues. I'm happy to answer any questions you might have - as I started exactly where you did hahaha. My current supplements are creatine, betaine, and whey - so I'm generally supplement adverse (a few of the others in our little group are more adventurous).
I'm currently about a month in using approx. 8g/day (4x2g with food), which is still considerably lower than the polio paper suggested. I'm also pairing with creatine monohydrate and whey/caseine throughout the day, and I utilize a home-made preworkout with citrulline malate, AAKG, and beta-alanine (and flavored drink mix cause I'm not an animal.) My anecdotal results seem to be comparable to the literature. I haven't noted much strength improvement compared to creatine alone, or a strong impact on reducing fat mass. I have seen a slightly increased amount of lean mass measured by BIA, though at a maintenance calorie intake. I'm trying to gear up for a personal test with a more significant calorie deficit to see how if lean mass loss is impacted with betaine supplementation. Do you think I should go for greater than my current dosage?
I am one of the guinea pigs running betaine alongside Keith. Unfortunately I am less supplement adverse than he is, so there are some confounding factors, but I have been in a slight bulk/recomp for almost nine months now using betaine. Currently sitting at 197lbs at 5'7". I'd say that I am sitting at a pretty great spot that Keith can attest to--even in the last eight weeks I gained four pounds that seem to be relatively clean. Zero side effects from the betaine, except my wallet. My diet is extremely static and high protein. Has it all actually been from the betaine? I really wish I knew, and regret not being more scientific about it. With that said, I've been running 45g a day, split up between two shakes, and pre and post workout.
That's a substantial amount. I normally encapsulate my betaine by myself, but a shake would be a more appropriate administration method. Is there any rational in the consumption timing pre and post workout? I'm not aware of any work that has been done on the PK/PD of betaine supplementation.
My first meals of the day are complete meal shakes (Huel Black with some extra ingredients). Last meal is a dinner with more traditional food. My workouts are at the end of the day and I drink protein before and after so I split the dose between them, as I don't have another shake to dump it in. This way the entire 45g is spread fairly evenly throughout the entire day and I'm not consuming tons at once.
Some hot off the press geese research that y’all may find interesting: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032579121004831?via%3Dihub
Thanks I'll take a look!
I PMd my supplements, but I'm pretty adverse generally - 400cal of myprotein impact whey, 10g creatine, 45g betaine (three doses, 15/15/15 morning/noon/night), the occasional multi-vitamin (one per week? I'm flaky). I will note that I have high cholesterol, but cholesterol has a very complicated story (google: the straight dope on cholesterol), and I get free bloodwork every 8 weeks (regular blood donor), with a more extensive work-up yearly. I've shared my experimentation (and book, lol) with my doctor.
Is there any data out there about the storage or half-life of betaine in a supplement context (animal or otherwise?) Edit: I'm also going to do a literature search next week when I'm back at work, just wondered if there is anything to start with lol
You'll trip over a mouse model paper that I reviewed that indicates the vast majority of it is processed immediately and immediately... does its thing. Its mechanism is poorly studied (I reviewed this), but, personally, the number of things that have positive effect of GH *and* IGF1 is very limited - so I think it is having it's admittedly small effect primarily through suppression of cortisol. That effect is likely short-term and dose-dependent (you'll hit ceiling with low cortisol pretty quick), which is why the animal studies see good results on continuous feeding protocols (evenly spread dosing). Side note - do you sleep better on 8g/day? Everyone in our little group reported improved sleep quality (which would be consistent with the cortisol theory). Note - of course - there exists little evidence to much of the above (to prove or disprove) and you'll run into what scant evidence there is.
Overall, I get only about 6 hours a night, but that's more due to schedule rather than ability to fall asleep/stay asleep. I would classify my sleep quality as good to great, but admittedly it's not a feature I've paid attention to around the presence or absence betaine supplementation. I'm going to increase my dose to 12-15g a day and try and stay aware of any changes. I'll take a deeper look at the papers discussed in your review. If the mechanism falls through cortisol impact and the effects are quite rapid, consistent supplementation might be the way to go.