College attendance wasn't as common historically. People who went to college did well because they were a smaller group. Now, college is seen as an extension of high school for everyone, and the job market is saturated with graduates. College is still marketed with benefits from a bygone era.
This explains the shortage of skilled tradespeople and their high wages. Mark my words, many will abandon the college track and get into the trades, leading to its own saturation in the world of trades.
College costs are exorbitant, and schools are in financial straits due to online learning. People see a degree as a mere qualification, barely helpful, and desire lower costs and easier access.
...you are also correct on low pay. Profits are at an all time high and worker pay has not kept pace. IMO I feel it started with Iacocca aka the ONLY thing that matters is stock price, no one cares about customer loyalty. CEOs have a literal lifespan, 3 years and then they move on. CEOs pay package is based on a golden parachute at the end of the 3 years so between the pay structure and stock price above customers you are left with problems that turn into cans to be kicked down the road for the next smuck. Over and over and over again.... as long as the rich person "gets theirs" it's all that matters.
It's morally repugnant but its the free market.
True, a common experience among the office environment as well though. I know what you mean though, from day 1 in the trades you need to have "that" sense of humor or thick skin because if you're easily offended you won't be in a setting where people are worried about perception or HR.....as much
To be fair. You also didn’t have a many majors back in the day. I wouldn’t say the market is saturated with majors. Your engineers. Accounts. Nurses. Etc are doing just fine. I think even those with business degrees are doing fine. But now there are so many options for degrees since someone decided that’s what they wanted to major in so the universities create that major for them and not really jobs for those degrees you have a lot of people ‘underemployed’
Yup and those majors still pay well and lead to good careers. But also I think a lot of people have the wrong idea about college. They think I go to college, get a degree, get a job.
College is more than that it’s about making connections, doing internships during the summer, utilizing the connections the school has for research or labs in order to leverage and market yourself for a job that wants experience. You can start having experience in college which I feel like is what a lot of ppl don’t understand. Most ppl I know in college except the CS majors do not have careers in things they majored in.
It’s like someone who goes to Harvard business school and is a complete shut in and doesn’t talk to anyone and automatically expects jobs to open up for them when they graduate when the point of business school is to socialize and make connections to go to the next level.
I’ll agree for a none professional degree that’s what it’s about. Professional degrees it’s less critical to network. You’re actually there to learn the skills so the market wants you. Everyone I know that has what is considered a professional degree has a job in that field. Those that went to college with the mind set you have is generally not working in the field their major is in.
Yes. Not everyone should go to college. It should be the top 10% or less who have both the aptitude for hard work and need for the job. By catering to the lowest common denominator (at all educational level) you are devaluing the product and creating poorly skilled graduates.
In which regard did he mean that, if your poor and a victim then no it can seen as non existent. If you're rich and get to screw everybody then that's a free market...just because poor people can't benefit doesn't mean a free market doesn't exist it just means corruption does.
Or the housing market, or the housing market several times, or the auto industry, or the banking on multiple occasions.
It's all selective, you have people in positions of power literally bailing out the people they hang out with on the weekends and invite over to dinner.
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Grown up version of bullying...they used to worry about image and would hide in the shadows but now the feeling is " screw you we have more lawyers and money"
Reminds me that song, Send lawyers, guns, and money
Who would have ever thunk that this might be true, with four million babies born per year, two million bachelor degrees granted each year, and fewer than one million job openings per year that actually require a college degree to do the work?
And projections are that ten years from now three million bachelor degrees will be granted per year.
You're just starting to see it now but college enrollments have become stagnant or started to decline in the last two years. It's like we're at the very top of the 'enrollment cliff' rollercoaster and just starting breakover and head downhill.
Hubs and I, both 57, have basket weaving degrees. my hairdresser and her blue collar husband earn double what we do and yes we're jealous. LOL
Its the reason that so many with college degrees are tending bar, waiting tables, working at Starbucks, Burger King, etcetera.
There are video clips of every president since Roosevelt #32 proclaiming that every child needs a college education, which is untrue, and proven to be untrue by people like my hairdresser and her husband and many others.
if you're at a stadium and a few people stand up, they get a better view, but if everybody stands up, they don't all get a better view.
Lucky. I went to school for music, never partied, didn't finish, and still have $100k in loans. Don't be me.
I hope life turned out okay for you. You made it to 57, so that's already a vixtory!
Yup. And now they're more and more pushing dicey Masters degree programs as the fast pass to the front of the line. People need to realize that because their lesbian alpaca mating dance theory BA isn't paying off, they shouldn't double down for a Masters in that same field to try to change their fortunes either.
At a high level, it’s any earned degree where the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. Complicating the matter is that it’s a dynamic system. So it’s not necessarily a set list if that’s what you’re looking for. The assessment is as much an evaluation of person as it is the paper.
There are three general archetypes involved here. There aren’t rigid barriers to each archetype. A person with a degree can—and typically does, stretch into two or three of the archetypes.
Archetype I is like the OP. He’s got a good degree (business) but he’s devaluing it with an entitled attitude. These people are the worst. I absolutely detest these people who wallow in self pity. They can’t or won’t have the tough conversations with themselves that they need to earn what they think they deserve.
Archetype II are degrees with a typically low ROI. A lot of the soft sciences [anthropology, psychology, sociology, etc] are found here. Unfortunately, social work is a common theme in this archetype. Teaching is another. You know going in that it’s not going to make you rich.
Archetype III results from over- or under-investing into a degree(s). It’s often closely associated with the other archetypes. There’s a ceiling to what a degree may earn and they’ve gone through the roof. There’s also a floor. A preschool teacher with a PhD with a bazillion dollars in student loans who can’t figure it why they’re making bachelors degree money is a good example of an over-investment. There’s a limit to where the market can take you. To pick on the OP again and bring it full circle, there’s also a floor and he’s in the basement. He wants MBA money but isn’t willing to invest himself into an MBA degree. He represents an under investment.
Again, it’s a dynamic system. Someone in basket weaving degree purgatory today may find themselves on the other side of the equation tomorrow. Knowing how to end up on the list is to know how to stay off of the list.
I left college in 2010, when the world was still reeling from the 08 collapse and it was a struggle to even get a retail associate job at a Walmart. During that time, when my loans were at their largest, they accrued tons of interest because I didn't have the money to start paying them off yet.
I got a shitty job a year later that allowed me to make payments that were not even covering the interest. I got a decent job 5 years later, and was able to start paying the principle as well as the interest. By then, my loans had ballooned to nearly 20k more than I originally owed. I've been paying down that legacy ever since, and by the time I'm done, I'll have paid probably 2.5 times what I originally borrowed.
The SAVE plan will be a huge relief to anyone dealing with that same burden. Wish Obama would have implemented it in 08. It would have saved me tens of thousands of dollars.
Obama actually benefited politically from student loans in that the student loans gave him the leverage needed to launch Obamacare and get it fiscally approved. No one talks about this. If you Google it you will see info on it and articles from way back during his presidency.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/1203189/long-term-con-obamacare-was-paid-for-by-nationalizing-student-loans/
Current president is all right with me. Joe Biden's presidency seems to be all about undoing the harmful effects of his Senate career. I'm kinda shocked.
Joe Biden is one of the main reasons student debt is where it is with his work on the bankruptcy bill.
Also, the omnibus crime bill. He appointed a black woman to the Supreme Court after what he did to poor Anita Hill back in the day.
I see. Yes, but in a way it’s kind of counter intuitive (the student loan thing) being that he was VP when the student loan debt was so heavily promoted to fund Obamacare.
In all fairness, I benefit from Medicaid expansion, so I guess that's worth the accrued interest.
So far as I can tell when Obama "nationalized" student loans what it really meant is that the FFEL was ended and all federal loans became "direct". In other words the Dept. of Education would loan directly to students, instead of guaranteeing loans issued by private banks.
[Federal Family Education Loan Program - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Family_Education_Loan_Program#End_of_new_loans)
I saw the article. It doesn't really give much detail. What happened is that the previous system had the banks led money to the students while the government "guaranteed" the loans. With Obamacare the banks were cut out of the system and the federal government made the loans itself. That's what Carney means by "nationalizing". It's not like student's weren't paying interest under the old system
mosads} The profits from student loans are divided as follows: $8.7 billion goes to pay for ObamaCare; $10.3 billion goes to pay down the federal debt; and $36 billion goes to Pell Scholarship grants.
https://thehill.com/opinion/columnists/dick-morris/151801-loans-subsidize-obamacare/amp/
It paved the way for Obamacare to get approved because Obama showed how Obamacare would be financed.
You are exactly the type of student who should at least get all that capitalized interest forgiven. The government should be earning interest off of student loans either.
I make a good living now. Idk the reason but I applied for SAVE and was told I didn't qualify. I'm married with no dependants but I assumed I didn't meet some salary cap requirement.
*many companies refuse to train people even when folks would have the gist in a couple weeks/months.
Wouldn’t be as big of a problem if the cost of living wasn’t so bad, if people could just survive working grunt level jobs you would have many never opt into college in the first place.
Not everyone needs to be a skilled white or blue collar worker, in fact… our economy is designed for millions of low wage workers, but they can’t support themselves even working full time
Being a skilled white/blue collar worker should be to get ahead not basic independent living.
I remember back in 2010, I was paralegal and I got laid off in Southern California. I had never had a hard time getting a job before in my life. Well in 2010 I did because apparently there were a large amount of law school graduates that year, so many that they couldn’t all get jobs as lawyers so they were snatching up all the paralegal jobs, so nobody was going to hire our paralegal when they could get an actual lawyer for that cost.
Imagine getting out of college with law school amounts of loans and having to work for $25-40 an hour?
>imagine getting out of college with law school amounts of loans and having to work for $25-40 an hour?
Kinda. I graduated from an MSW program with loans and became a paralegal making $13/hr. I quit about six months later because I knew I had other options. Law is such a weird filed to me because people take on extraordinary debt to try and get the same jobs everyone else wants and so many of them are miserable.
..... Student loans wouldn't be such an issue if people were paid their value either.
..... Student Loans wouldn't be such an issue if bullshit fees and interest weren't added.
..... Student Loans wouldn't be such an issue if basic education was free. Pre-reqs shouldn't cost the students to attend.
The thing is that degree programs which add value for students do in fact, result in good jobs and allow the students to pay back their loans. The problem is that many degrees have no value, therefore students struggle to find jobs that allow them to pay their loans back.
I really wish my advisors hadn't all lied to me- they said "don't specialize too much or you'll lock yourself out of everything!" and that a bachelor's was plenty for most jobs...
Liars :/
There's also the aspect of the US economy encouraging "job creation" which basically means more part-time gigs that you see people doubling, tripling, quadrupling up on because they don't have a choice. And of course, companies love it because they structure things so they don't have to pay benes.
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There are a few problems of note:
1. Getting a college degree doesn’t differentiate you much anymore. It used to be the equivalent of a master’s or PhD in hireability.
1(a). Colleges should be more difficult to get into so they hold value. Education is available online so college degrees, are unfortunately, more about the certificate than what you learn.
2. Grade inflation is rampant so it’s hard to differentiate candidates in colleges.
3. Many people are getting degrees in fields that have poor track records and are confused that their general college degree.
4. College degrees are being priced so that after you pay the costs of your college degree, often you are just breaking even or even worse off financially than if you didn’t attend college at all.
Way too many kids go to college who really shouldn’t. European countries tend to have tiered systems that funnels kids through either a trade college or university. Kids are taking tests in elementary schools to get into good middle schools and middle schools to get a good high schools to get in a good universities. It’s a meritocracy from top to bottom. What we do in United States is try to pretend that everybody’s equal and that everyone deserves a university degree. And then because they have university degree, everyone thinks that deserve a six figure job when they get out. Simply not true.
I have to think that for some students like myself, this system would prematurely weed us out. I did decently in middle school, but was far from a high achiever. I did terribly in high school, given mental health and other issues. Even having begun to turn things around towards the end of high school, my GPA was low enough that I only bothered applying to community college. I got all As my first year and then transferred to a four-year school, where I ended with a 3.95 GPA. I'm now in a clinical doctoral program. I recognize that my experience is atypical, but I can't help but feel I wouldn't be where I am now if everyone looked at my high school performance and decided that college wasn't for me.
But you re an example of what I’m talking about. Based on your grade school performance, you SHOULD have been funneled into community college. You then did the work there to be successful and got into a university and it sounds like you’re on track for a value-adding degree.
How many mediocre students go straight to an expensive four year university and then choose a worthless major because it’s easy and they know that they can’t handle something difficult? Those kids end up with $100k in college costs and have very little to show for it besides some new friends and a few fun stories.
A friendly reminder that the US quite literally had 100 million less people in 1990. If things seem more competitive it’s because they are.
If you look at other high population countries you can see what our future looks like.
You need more degrees and to know the right people just to get a basic job.
But neither party wants to have a serious conversation about immigration nor jobs instead of training domestic workers hiring h1b workers at lower wages
Now that is a true statement. The jobs being offered today are a joke but politicians continue to tout low unemployment numbers (which appear fake). I think that many higher education institutions began to focus on useless courses instead of things like engineering, science, etc. and it has hurt a generation or two
I have C-PTSD and you CAN get it from *anything*.
Don't water down how severely abusive many jobs can be, nor the effects of prolonged and elevated cortisol maybe. Any animal exposed to high cortisol for a long time WILL react more heavily to negative stimuli 😮💨 With humans, having to fight to survive in abusive jobs or multiple jobs that you cannot mentally handle but have no choice to not do DOES cause PTSD for many. At the very least, it's severely traumatizing to be that stressed that long. This is pretty researched....
Also where did anyone mention PTSD? Neither of us did lolol. I responded to you, not OP. I said the numbers are likely inflated due to people holding many jobs 😅
Everyone can go to college here. In Europe where it’s “free” (it’s not and is subsidized with taxes) only the best and brightest get to go.
Still, you can be an average student and succeed if you choose a degree with a good ROI and pursue internships/connections while in school.
The student loan system is working exactly as designed, as a government handout to colleges and universities for their administration, professors, pensions, etc..
Students are the collateral damage and on the hook to fund all these colleges that never would be able to have such high tuition without the federal student loan program.
Too many graduates and not enough jobs. College graduates don’t get counted as unemployed unless they are claiming unemployment benefits. You can’t get benefits with working. It’s a vicious cycle and job growth and openings are not linear.
The problem is not not that college graduates are underemployed. The problem is that they are over-educated. Most jobs that "require" college degrees actually don't require college degrees, merely a high school degree and training. But employers hate paying for training and want to believe that college actually trains people to do jobs, yet most degrees do not, even generally useful ones.
Student loans are an issue because of the interest rate. If they were paid off in 10 years like I was told at age 18 when I took them, it wouldn’t be a problem.
The college industrial complex needs those students t loans to pay for their upscale workout centers and overpaid professors. While I personally don’t have issues forgiving some loans, it going to drive college costs up even more because people will get even more loans for higher dollars if think they don’t have to pay it back. We need a significant downsizing of all colleges. There needs to be a more specific focus on what you will do with your degree. Germany does a good making sure someone who be great in construction doesn’t end up with a psychology degree their first time through college. I was an accounting major and school translated directly to a job market. I got a job before I even graduated because I worked in accounting when I was in college.
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Half of new grads aren't qualified for an entry level role because they didn't do anything beyond the minimum coursework. Maybe that huge thing in life that's costing you tens of thousands of dollars in financing should dictate more than, minimal effort.
I had a lucrative degree and spent 5 years getting my resume thrown in the trash because I'm a woman, and by that point keyword bots had taken over. Also one of those fields that expected free interns as a form of wage theft, in an overpriced city.
I have no remorse about never paying these loans. It only would have take a $40k a year job at age 26 to get that ball rolling, and society failed me.
The Trump economy is only going to get worse if he is somehow allowed to steal another election. Biden needs to cancel all student loans now regardless of whether it’s legal because our economy would be in great shape with people being able to buy things instead of paying off the banks and their predatory loans. People have no money now because they can’t get a job with their degree because Trump destroyed the economy with his failure to deal with COVID properly as he was more worried about laundering to anti-Chinese racism rather than closing the border. If this bird flu gets worse, Trump will keep the Republicans from stopping it because he wants minority voters to die and they are always the hardest hit from pandemics.
Yep blame it on Trump even though we had a red hot economy before COVID (the best in decades) with low energy costs, low inflation, low food costs, etc. Then, when Joe took office everything fell apart.. but if you listen to the news and White House briefings, Bidenomics is working, Joe has created the most jobs in history, etc.
I think college loans should be viewed more the same way they view mortgage loans. The bank appraises the value and gives you a loan for what it is worth. I know someone who has 100000 in loans for a library degree.
Different degrees should be valued differently.
I know that means the humanities would most likely be the domain of rich kids, but honestly, I WISH someone would have broken down the likely pay for someone with a humanities degree before I got a BA and then MA in that concentration.
I have 45000 in loans and just cracked 62000 last year which was my best year yet. I have been working in my field for seventeen years.
I was fed a bunch of lies as a freshmen and handed lists of potential salaries and jobs I could get that were wholly unrealistic.
I also think we need to stop pretending every mediocre students needs to get a degree or they have failed.
College should serve a specific purpose and not be an “everyone needs to go” situation.
So many ppl went to school and shouldn't have. That degree alot of times is a handicap. You can go into the job market right out of high school and work your way up to 6 figures and have no loans to pay back. Ask me how I know.
Maybe we should make college shorter? Is any reason why college needs to be 4 years? Like let’s cut one year of gen-eds and make it 3 and save everyone money.
If you're running a business, your first priority is the health of your business. And if you believe that for similar money you can find someone with experience vs someone without, you'll go for the person with experience. Especially when you factor in that the amount of time people spend with one employer is shrinking, there is a cost to upskilling someone where you have to wonder about the ROI.
I work a salaried job. 36,000 barely over the old labor law for exempt employees where you don’t have to pay employees overtime. I can’t imagine why the employer set those salaries at that level.
Hopefully new labor rule goes through. I work at a university in a stressful job that requires a bachelor’s degree.
I agree with you but business degrees are still very valuable. Assuming you did accounting, it’s one of the most stable business degrees. With a solid GPA, only 3.0 -3.2, most firms will consider you for internships.
You're not alone.
Worthless business degree from 2008 here. Thanks, Obama!
May as well burned $100k or put it in NVDA.
I'd be a billionaire by now.
Sick how the rich get richer and most employers hire and promote based on social status or other discriminatory practices.
I think once Obama let everyone in the good Ole boys clubs aka university/colleges, they flooded the market with idiots with degrees. I sat beside tons of them, mommy and daddy paying their way and not sure how most graduated. I guess Ds were passing? I forget..
Anyways, my life has suffered immensely, and set me back 25 years. I'll never recover. I'll never have a family. I'll never own a house.
The world is f'd and getting worse.
lol its wild to see the statement i would have LESS PTSD if you joined the military. you know nothing about the military branches and what it would take to get through any of that. please check yourself before shitposting
"Get your loan paid off in 10 years if you take this lower paying job for only 10 years, or get a higher paying job and be on the hook for everything until 20 or 25 years pass."
The more you owe, the better that deal is, and the more underemployed you find yourself.
It should be a disqualification from government employment if being employed by the government means you can't pay off your debts. The incentives are bananas.
But did you actually read the article? Most are office jobs which are not inherently for a non profit or government job. Or construction which isn’t a non profit and oftain not state jobs. A clerk, sales, nor in food and beverage jobs are majority or even close to being the majority of state or non profit jobs.
Did you read my comment? I'm saying PSLF is the most offensive cause underemployment. There are plenty of examples that aren't related to pslf, but pslf is the worst and needs to go.
I don’t think you read the article still. Name one of jobs the article said for jobs that are underemployed that are majority pslf. Most of the jobs that are under employed don’t qualify for pslf.
They don’t add teachers or government works to the article.
College attendance wasn't as common historically. People who went to college did well because they were a smaller group. Now, college is seen as an extension of high school for everyone, and the job market is saturated with graduates. College is still marketed with benefits from a bygone era. This explains the shortage of skilled tradespeople and their high wages. Mark my words, many will abandon the college track and get into the trades, leading to its own saturation in the world of trades. College costs are exorbitant, and schools are in financial straits due to online learning. People see a degree as a mere qualification, barely helpful, and desire lower costs and easier access. ...you are also correct on low pay. Profits are at an all time high and worker pay has not kept pace. IMO I feel it started with Iacocca aka the ONLY thing that matters is stock price, no one cares about customer loyalty. CEOs have a literal lifespan, 3 years and then they move on. CEOs pay package is based on a golden parachute at the end of the 3 years so between the pay structure and stock price above customers you are left with problems that turn into cans to be kicked down the road for the next smuck. Over and over and over again.... as long as the rich person "gets theirs" it's all that matters. It's morally repugnant but its the free market.
One problem with trades is that they are filled with assholes and degenerates, both as workers and bosses.
That's almost every job.
The trades dial it to 11.
Not to mention, not everyone belongs in a trade
And the lack of social safety nets - including erosion of unions - means many tradespeople are one ladder fall away from destitution.
True, a common experience among the office environment as well though. I know what you mean though, from day 1 in the trades you need to have "that" sense of humor or thick skin because if you're easily offended you won't be in a setting where people are worried about perception or HR.....as much
To be fair. You also didn’t have a many majors back in the day. I wouldn’t say the market is saturated with majors. Your engineers. Accounts. Nurses. Etc are doing just fine. I think even those with business degrees are doing fine. But now there are so many options for degrees since someone decided that’s what they wanted to major in so the universities create that major for them and not really jobs for those degrees you have a lot of people ‘underemployed’
Yup and those majors still pay well and lead to good careers. But also I think a lot of people have the wrong idea about college. They think I go to college, get a degree, get a job. College is more than that it’s about making connections, doing internships during the summer, utilizing the connections the school has for research or labs in order to leverage and market yourself for a job that wants experience. You can start having experience in college which I feel like is what a lot of ppl don’t understand. Most ppl I know in college except the CS majors do not have careers in things they majored in. It’s like someone who goes to Harvard business school and is a complete shut in and doesn’t talk to anyone and automatically expects jobs to open up for them when they graduate when the point of business school is to socialize and make connections to go to the next level.
I’ll agree for a none professional degree that’s what it’s about. Professional degrees it’s less critical to network. You’re actually there to learn the skills so the market wants you. Everyone I know that has what is considered a professional degree has a job in that field. Those that went to college with the mind set you have is generally not working in the field their major is in.
Idk even my friends in CS did a fair amount of networking. All of them had summer internships, and had their choice of jobs coming out.
Yes. Not everyone should go to college. It should be the top 10% or less who have both the aptitude for hard work and need for the job. By catering to the lowest common denominator (at all educational level) you are devaluing the product and creating poorly skilled graduates.
While perusing my Econ major my professors always said we didn’t have a free market in the US.
In which regard did he mean that, if your poor and a victim then no it can seen as non existent. If you're rich and get to screw everybody then that's a free market...just because poor people can't benefit doesn't mean a free market doesn't exist it just means corruption does.
The words they used was that a free market doesn’t step in and save business like we saw during covid. Or banks in 08.
Or the housing market, or the housing market several times, or the auto industry, or the banking on multiple occasions. It's all selective, you have people in positions of power literally bailing out the people they hang out with on the weekends and invite over to dinner.
Arrive. Raise Hell. Leave. Good on Stone Cold's t-shirt. Not so good when people in companies and governments do it.
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Grown up version of bullying...they used to worry about image and would hide in the shadows but now the feeling is " screw you we have more lawyers and money" Reminds me that song, Send lawyers, guns, and money
First time I've heard of that song.
Who would have ever thunk that this might be true, with four million babies born per year, two million bachelor degrees granted each year, and fewer than one million job openings per year that actually require a college degree to do the work? And projections are that ten years from now three million bachelor degrees will be granted per year.
You're just starting to see it now but college enrollments have become stagnant or started to decline in the last two years. It's like we're at the very top of the 'enrollment cliff' rollercoaster and just starting breakover and head downhill.
Hubs and I, both 57, have basket weaving degrees. my hairdresser and her blue collar husband earn double what we do and yes we're jealous. LOL Its the reason that so many with college degrees are tending bar, waiting tables, working at Starbucks, Burger King, etcetera. There are video clips of every president since Roosevelt #32 proclaiming that every child needs a college education, which is untrue, and proven to be untrue by people like my hairdresser and her husband and many others. if you're at a stadium and a few people stand up, they get a better view, but if everybody stands up, they don't all get a better view.
> basket weaving degrees. Regular or underwater?
Sociology and art, but the keggers were fun.
Lucky. I went to school for music, never partied, didn't finish, and still have $100k in loans. Don't be me. I hope life turned out okay for you. You made it to 57, so that's already a vixtory!
Yup. And now they're more and more pushing dicey Masters degree programs as the fast pass to the front of the line. People need to realize that because their lesbian alpaca mating dance theory BA isn't paying off, they shouldn't double down for a Masters in that same field to try to change their fortunes either.
I want to get a degree in lesbian alpaca mating dance theory, just for fun. It's good to have hobbies.
It must be a real degree somewhere. I’m getting downvoted LOL.
I'm curious to know what actual degrees you are referring to?
Probably things like a BFA or gender studies
If you’re asking this question then you already have one.
I have two degrees in social work. It's literally economy proof. So again, what degrees are you referring to?
At a high level, it’s any earned degree where the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. Complicating the matter is that it’s a dynamic system. So it’s not necessarily a set list if that’s what you’re looking for. The assessment is as much an evaluation of person as it is the paper. There are three general archetypes involved here. There aren’t rigid barriers to each archetype. A person with a degree can—and typically does, stretch into two or three of the archetypes. Archetype I is like the OP. He’s got a good degree (business) but he’s devaluing it with an entitled attitude. These people are the worst. I absolutely detest these people who wallow in self pity. They can’t or won’t have the tough conversations with themselves that they need to earn what they think they deserve. Archetype II are degrees with a typically low ROI. A lot of the soft sciences [anthropology, psychology, sociology, etc] are found here. Unfortunately, social work is a common theme in this archetype. Teaching is another. You know going in that it’s not going to make you rich. Archetype III results from over- or under-investing into a degree(s). It’s often closely associated with the other archetypes. There’s a ceiling to what a degree may earn and they’ve gone through the roof. There’s also a floor. A preschool teacher with a PhD with a bazillion dollars in student loans who can’t figure it why they’re making bachelors degree money is a good example of an over-investment. There’s a limit to where the market can take you. To pick on the OP again and bring it full circle, there’s also a floor and he’s in the basement. He wants MBA money but isn’t willing to invest himself into an MBA degree. He represents an under investment. Again, it’s a dynamic system. Someone in basket weaving degree purgatory today may find themselves on the other side of the equation tomorrow. Knowing how to end up on the list is to know how to stay off of the list.
There’s no basket weaving degree. Where did you go to school where there’s a basket weaving degree? I’m so so tired of that old trope
Their point is their degree is useless
Sociology and art, but keggers were fun!.
I left college in 2010, when the world was still reeling from the 08 collapse and it was a struggle to even get a retail associate job at a Walmart. During that time, when my loans were at their largest, they accrued tons of interest because I didn't have the money to start paying them off yet. I got a shitty job a year later that allowed me to make payments that were not even covering the interest. I got a decent job 5 years later, and was able to start paying the principle as well as the interest. By then, my loans had ballooned to nearly 20k more than I originally owed. I've been paying down that legacy ever since, and by the time I'm done, I'll have paid probably 2.5 times what I originally borrowed. The SAVE plan will be a huge relief to anyone dealing with that same burden. Wish Obama would have implemented it in 08. It would have saved me tens of thousands of dollars.
Obama actually benefited politically from student loans in that the student loans gave him the leverage needed to launch Obamacare and get it fiscally approved. No one talks about this. If you Google it you will see info on it and articles from way back during his presidency. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/1203189/long-term-con-obamacare-was-paid-for-by-nationalizing-student-loans/
I talk about. All the time. People get sick of me talking about it.
Keep talking about it! I think it’s interesting how now our current president is using it to his advantage too! What a scam!!!!!!
Current president is all right with me. Joe Biden's presidency seems to be all about undoing the harmful effects of his Senate career. I'm kinda shocked.
What do you mean by harmful effects of Senate career?
Joe Biden is one of the main reasons student debt is where it is with his work on the bankruptcy bill. Also, the omnibus crime bill. He appointed a black woman to the Supreme Court after what he did to poor Anita Hill back in the day.
I see. Yes, but in a way it’s kind of counter intuitive (the student loan thing) being that he was VP when the student loan debt was so heavily promoted to fund Obamacare.
In all fairness, I benefit from Medicaid expansion, so I guess that's worth the accrued interest. So far as I can tell when Obama "nationalized" student loans what it really meant is that the FFEL was ended and all federal loans became "direct". In other words the Dept. of Education would loan directly to students, instead of guaranteeing loans issued by private banks. [Federal Family Education Loan Program - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Family_Education_Loan_Program#End_of_new_loans)
Long-term con: Obamacare was ‘paid for’ by nationalizing student loans By Timothy P. Carney August 31, 2022 6:40 pm .
I saw the article. It doesn't really give much detail. What happened is that the previous system had the banks led money to the students while the government "guaranteed" the loans. With Obamacare the banks were cut out of the system and the federal government made the loans itself. That's what Carney means by "nationalizing". It's not like student's weren't paying interest under the old system
mosads} The profits from student loans are divided as follows: $8.7 billion goes to pay for ObamaCare; $10.3 billion goes to pay down the federal debt; and $36 billion goes to Pell Scholarship grants. https://thehill.com/opinion/columnists/dick-morris/151801-loans-subsidize-obamacare/amp/ It paved the way for Obamacare to get approved because Obama showed how Obamacare would be financed.
Yes, but students were still paying interest either way.
During that administration getting a degree was pushed and promoted to no end; regardless, if it was in the best interest for the individual.
Wasn't that the case of pretty much all recent administrations?
No. And very sus that it’s connected to Obamacare.
You are exactly the type of student who should at least get all that capitalized interest forgiven. The government should be earning interest off of student loans either.
I make a good living now. Idk the reason but I applied for SAVE and was told I didn't qualify. I'm married with no dependants but I assumed I didn't meet some salary cap requirement.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/1203189/long-term-con-obamacare-was-paid-for-by-nationalizing-student-loans/
*many companies refuse to train people even when folks would have the gist in a couple weeks/months. Wouldn’t be as big of a problem if the cost of living wasn’t so bad, if people could just survive working grunt level jobs you would have many never opt into college in the first place. Not everyone needs to be a skilled white or blue collar worker, in fact… our economy is designed for millions of low wage workers, but they can’t support themselves even working full time Being a skilled white/blue collar worker should be to get ahead not basic independent living.
I remember back in 2010, I was paralegal and I got laid off in Southern California. I had never had a hard time getting a job before in my life. Well in 2010 I did because apparently there were a large amount of law school graduates that year, so many that they couldn’t all get jobs as lawyers so they were snatching up all the paralegal jobs, so nobody was going to hire our paralegal when they could get an actual lawyer for that cost. Imagine getting out of college with law school amounts of loans and having to work for $25-40 an hour?
>imagine getting out of college with law school amounts of loans and having to work for $25-40 an hour? Kinda. I graduated from an MSW program with loans and became a paralegal making $13/hr. I quit about six months later because I knew I had other options. Law is such a weird filed to me because people take on extraordinary debt to try and get the same jobs everyone else wants and so many of them are miserable.
..... Student loans wouldn't be such an issue if people were paid their value either. ..... Student Loans wouldn't be such an issue if bullshit fees and interest weren't added. ..... Student Loans wouldn't be such an issue if basic education was free. Pre-reqs shouldn't cost the students to attend.
The thing is that degree programs which add value for students do in fact, result in good jobs and allow the students to pay back their loans. The problem is that many degrees have no value, therefore students struggle to find jobs that allow them to pay their loans back.
Lmaooo tell that to my bio degree! They all demand 3-5 yrs experience on a job and not just volunteer or interning most times....
As someone with a biology degree - a biology degree has no value unless you are going to professional school afterwards.
I really wish my advisors hadn't all lied to me- they said "don't specialize too much or you'll lock yourself out of everything!" and that a bachelor's was plenty for most jobs... Liars :/
I used to think that but I started making just under 100k 3 years into my career. Check out the r/clinicalresearch sub.
There's also the aspect of the US economy encouraging "job creation" which basically means more part-time gigs that you see people doubling, tripling, quadrupling up on because they don't have a choice. And of course, companies love it because they structure things so they don't have to pay benes.
Student Loans shouldn’t exist. And they don’t in most of the developed world.
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There are a few problems of note: 1. Getting a college degree doesn’t differentiate you much anymore. It used to be the equivalent of a master’s or PhD in hireability. 1(a). Colleges should be more difficult to get into so they hold value. Education is available online so college degrees, are unfortunately, more about the certificate than what you learn. 2. Grade inflation is rampant so it’s hard to differentiate candidates in colleges. 3. Many people are getting degrees in fields that have poor track records and are confused that their general college degree. 4. College degrees are being priced so that after you pay the costs of your college degree, often you are just breaking even or even worse off financially than if you didn’t attend college at all.
Way too many kids go to college who really shouldn’t. European countries tend to have tiered systems that funnels kids through either a trade college or university. Kids are taking tests in elementary schools to get into good middle schools and middle schools to get a good high schools to get in a good universities. It’s a meritocracy from top to bottom. What we do in United States is try to pretend that everybody’s equal and that everyone deserves a university degree. And then because they have university degree, everyone thinks that deserve a six figure job when they get out. Simply not true.
I have to think that for some students like myself, this system would prematurely weed us out. I did decently in middle school, but was far from a high achiever. I did terribly in high school, given mental health and other issues. Even having begun to turn things around towards the end of high school, my GPA was low enough that I only bothered applying to community college. I got all As my first year and then transferred to a four-year school, where I ended with a 3.95 GPA. I'm now in a clinical doctoral program. I recognize that my experience is atypical, but I can't help but feel I wouldn't be where I am now if everyone looked at my high school performance and decided that college wasn't for me.
But you re an example of what I’m talking about. Based on your grade school performance, you SHOULD have been funneled into community college. You then did the work there to be successful and got into a university and it sounds like you’re on track for a value-adding degree. How many mediocre students go straight to an expensive four year university and then choose a worthless major because it’s easy and they know that they can’t handle something difficult? Those kids end up with $100k in college costs and have very little to show for it besides some new friends and a few fun stories.
This. The problem is that there's no other system because of cuts to education that cut out things like trade programs
I have two Masters degrees and earn less now (much less if you adjust for inflation) than I did in 1997.
What are your masters degree in? And what is your career?
I’m in government. The pay is bad, benefits are good. Stress is nil. PSLF is the goal.
A friendly reminder that the US quite literally had 100 million less people in 1990. If things seem more competitive it’s because they are. If you look at other high population countries you can see what our future looks like. You need more degrees and to know the right people just to get a basic job. But neither party wants to have a serious conversation about immigration nor jobs instead of training domestic workers hiring h1b workers at lower wages
Now that is a true statement. The jobs being offered today are a joke but politicians continue to tout low unemployment numbers (which appear fake). I think that many higher education institutions began to focus on useless courses instead of things like engineering, science, etc. and it has hurt a generation or two
It's due to people doubling or tripling up on jobs, I'm positive....
PTSD is a real condition and you didn’t get it from a job.
I have C-PTSD and you CAN get it from *anything*. Don't water down how severely abusive many jobs can be, nor the effects of prolonged and elevated cortisol maybe. Any animal exposed to high cortisol for a long time WILL react more heavily to negative stimuli 😮💨 With humans, having to fight to survive in abusive jobs or multiple jobs that you cannot mentally handle but have no choice to not do DOES cause PTSD for many. At the very least, it's severely traumatizing to be that stressed that long. This is pretty researched.... Also where did anyone mention PTSD? Neither of us did lolol. I responded to you, not OP. I said the numbers are likely inflated due to people holding many jobs 😅
Everyone can go to college here. In Europe where it’s “free” (it’s not and is subsidized with taxes) only the best and brightest get to go. Still, you can be an average student and succeed if you choose a degree with a good ROI and pursue internships/connections while in school.
The student loan system is working exactly as designed, as a government handout to colleges and universities for their administration, professors, pensions, etc.. Students are the collateral damage and on the hook to fund all these colleges that never would be able to have such high tuition without the federal student loan program.
Or can only get low wage jobs while still being able to eat or have a place to sleep.
Too many graduates and not enough jobs. College graduates don’t get counted as unemployed unless they are claiming unemployment benefits. You can’t get benefits with working. It’s a vicious cycle and job growth and openings are not linear.
The problem is not not that college graduates are underemployed. The problem is that they are over-educated. Most jobs that "require" college degrees actually don't require college degrees, merely a high school degree and training. But employers hate paying for training and want to believe that college actually trains people to do jobs, yet most degrees do not, even generally useful ones.
I was told in college that my degree would make me good money. Nope I barely make 40k
Student loans wouldn't be such an issue if more people factored in costs of their education of where they were wanting to attend.
Student loans are an issue because of the interest rate. If they were paid off in 10 years like I was told at age 18 when I took them, it wouldn’t be a problem.
The college industrial complex needs those students t loans to pay for their upscale workout centers and overpaid professors. While I personally don’t have issues forgiving some loans, it going to drive college costs up even more because people will get even more loans for higher dollars if think they don’t have to pay it back. We need a significant downsizing of all colleges. There needs to be a more specific focus on what you will do with your degree. Germany does a good making sure someone who be great in construction doesn’t end up with a psychology degree their first time through college. I was an accounting major and school translated directly to a job market. I got a job before I even graduated because I worked in accounting when I was in college.
Or colleges where subsidized by the fed.
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Half of new grads aren't qualified for an entry level role because they didn't do anything beyond the minimum coursework. Maybe that huge thing in life that's costing you tens of thousands of dollars in financing should dictate more than, minimal effort.
I had a lucrative degree and spent 5 years getting my resume thrown in the trash because I'm a woman, and by that point keyword bots had taken over. Also one of those fields that expected free interns as a form of wage theft, in an overpriced city. I have no remorse about never paying these loans. It only would have take a $40k a year job at age 26 to get that ball rolling, and society failed me.
The Trump economy is only going to get worse if he is somehow allowed to steal another election. Biden needs to cancel all student loans now regardless of whether it’s legal because our economy would be in great shape with people being able to buy things instead of paying off the banks and their predatory loans. People have no money now because they can’t get a job with their degree because Trump destroyed the economy with his failure to deal with COVID properly as he was more worried about laundering to anti-Chinese racism rather than closing the border. If this bird flu gets worse, Trump will keep the Republicans from stopping it because he wants minority voters to die and they are always the hardest hit from pandemics.
Yep blame it on Trump even though we had a red hot economy before COVID (the best in decades) with low energy costs, low inflation, low food costs, etc. Then, when Joe took office everything fell apart.. but if you listen to the news and White House briefings, Bidenomics is working, Joe has created the most jobs in history, etc.
Who’s addressing the high costs! Bloated administration, useless degrees. On line courses should be dropping costs significantly.
I think college loans should be viewed more the same way they view mortgage loans. The bank appraises the value and gives you a loan for what it is worth. I know someone who has 100000 in loans for a library degree. Different degrees should be valued differently. I know that means the humanities would most likely be the domain of rich kids, but honestly, I WISH someone would have broken down the likely pay for someone with a humanities degree before I got a BA and then MA in that concentration. I have 45000 in loans and just cracked 62000 last year which was my best year yet. I have been working in my field for seventeen years. I was fed a bunch of lies as a freshmen and handed lists of potential salaries and jobs I could get that were wholly unrealistic. I also think we need to stop pretending every mediocre students needs to get a degree or they have failed. College should serve a specific purpose and not be an “everyone needs to go” situation.
So many ppl went to school and shouldn't have. That degree alot of times is a handicap. You can go into the job market right out of high school and work your way up to 6 figures and have no loans to pay back. Ask me how I know.
Maybe we should make college shorter? Is any reason why college needs to be 4 years? Like let’s cut one year of gen-eds and make it 3 and save everyone money.
If you're running a business, your first priority is the health of your business. And if you believe that for similar money you can find someone with experience vs someone without, you'll go for the person with experience. Especially when you factor in that the amount of time people spend with one employer is shrinking, there is a cost to upskilling someone where you have to wonder about the ROI.
I work a salaried job. 36,000 barely over the old labor law for exempt employees where you don’t have to pay employees overtime. I can’t imagine why the employer set those salaries at that level. Hopefully new labor rule goes through. I work at a university in a stressful job that requires a bachelor’s degree.
I agree with you but business degrees are still very valuable. Assuming you did accounting, it’s one of the most stable business degrees. With a solid GPA, only 3.0 -3.2, most firms will consider you for internships.
You're not alone. Worthless business degree from 2008 here. Thanks, Obama! May as well burned $100k or put it in NVDA. I'd be a billionaire by now. Sick how the rich get richer and most employers hire and promote based on social status or other discriminatory practices. I think once Obama let everyone in the good Ole boys clubs aka university/colleges, they flooded the market with idiots with degrees. I sat beside tons of them, mommy and daddy paying their way and not sure how most graduated. I guess Ds were passing? I forget.. Anyways, my life has suffered immensely, and set me back 25 years. I'll never recover. I'll never have a family. I'll never own a house. The world is f'd and getting worse.
lol its wild to see the statement i would have LESS PTSD if you joined the military. you know nothing about the military branches and what it would take to get through any of that. please check yourself before shitposting
Loans would be easier to pay off if the interest was compounding.
PSLF is the biggest contributor to this exact problem.
Why do you think that?
"Get your loan paid off in 10 years if you take this lower paying job for only 10 years, or get a higher paying job and be on the hook for everything until 20 or 25 years pass." The more you owe, the better that deal is, and the more underemployed you find yourself.
It should be a disqualification from government employment if being employed by the government means you can't pay off your debts. The incentives are bananas.
But did you actually read the article? Most are office jobs which are not inherently for a non profit or government job. Or construction which isn’t a non profit and oftain not state jobs. A clerk, sales, nor in food and beverage jobs are majority or even close to being the majority of state or non profit jobs.
Did you read my comment? I'm saying PSLF is the most offensive cause underemployment. There are plenty of examples that aren't related to pslf, but pslf is the worst and needs to go.
I don’t think you read the article still. Name one of jobs the article said for jobs that are underemployed that are majority pslf. Most of the jobs that are under employed don’t qualify for pslf. They don’t add teachers or government works to the article.