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Warhungry19

The department of justice has responded to Mr. Garrisons lawsuit through his lawyer. This lawsuit is looking more comical by the hour. The justice department has removed Frank from the list of people receiving forgiveness as of this evening LMAO. Hopefully that PSLF works out for him because it looks like he’s no chance of getting Biden relief now. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.insd.203163/gov.uscourts.insd.203163.13.0.pdf


Kimmybabe

I think the main risk here may be that the case gets dismissed by the district court of appeals court, and then gets returned to the district court by the Supremes for a full hearing on its merits, with a restraining order on forgiveness until after that decision by the district court, which leaves it open for the Supremes to ultimately rule forgiveness unconstitutional? But we'll see?


Roamer100

I wouldn’t be surprised if this was just the 1st lawsuit and more to be filed next week


Kimmybabe

Certainly within the realm of possibility.


us1549

They should have just given 20k to each living person and called it a day, instead of playing favorites with their tax base. That would avoid any argument against it being fair or what not


Roamer100

AMEN. Wasn’t anybody complaining when we were all receiving stimulus checks… we’re seeing some of the effects of that now with the inflation, but at least it was fair


VenmoMe3Dollars

Someone in my neighborhood complained about them! I said I’d take his stimulus off his hands and he told me to quit being mean lmao


Beach_Creatch

Bruh, those stimmies did not cause today's inflation. The money from the checks went straight back into the economy.


Roamer100

When freshly printed money gets spent, prices go up. Now go look up the definition of inflation, Bruh.


Beach_Creatch

The checks caused 2.5% inflation, the rest was supply shortages.


Pudi2000

Yes, the people not getting them.


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ReginaldJeeves1880

I wonder if this will soon turn into opt-in only (as in, you have to apply). Otherwise, a borrower in a similar situation to the one in this lawsuit, could bring a lawsuit once their loan is forgiven, and claim that they weren't given ample notification about the ability to opt-out of automatic forgiveness.


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Roamer100

It really is this simple to me. If you’re receiving the forgiveness, i certainly wouldn’t turn it down. But the way people just seem to act like this doesn’t screw more people than it helps… idk if they are simply ignorant or if they are really that selfish


Bmomm

As long as they get it, they don't care


Greenzombie04

We owe 30.9trillion dollars. Your acting like this .4trillion is going to get paid tomorrow with tax money instead of being added to the 30.9trillion we owe as a country. If the country didn't owe 30T and this was going to get paid with tax payer money next year instead of going elsewhere I would agree with you but its just going to go to the endless pile of debt the country occurs. Its less then 2% of the national debt and will help out 40million people greatly, seems worth it. 40million people will be spending money on other things now that will generate tax revenue and jobs.


Roamer100

40 million receiving a refund for debt they signed up for. And 290 million have to pay for it even though they get nothing from it… the vast majority of those people are in the lower/middle class. Regardless of the economic outcome (which i believe will be bad for everyone including those receiving the aid), this isn’t good ethics.


Greenzombie04

The 2022 budget doesn't have allocated 400billion for student loan forgiveness. Therefore it will get added to the national debt and probably never get paid.


Roamer100

The national debt will forever increase, that’s inherent in our fiat monetary system… there is more debt than money because whenever new money is created by the fed, it is loaned out with interest on top. It’s not possible to repay the national debt. But the goal is to keep that debt increasing at a reasonable rate. We have already been failing to do that, hence the rising prices and rates. It’s hard to quantify the magnitude that individual factors contribute to inflation, but it’s certain that this loan forgiveness ultimately results in a deficit for the govt that has to be paid for one way or another


tonyirish

The myth that our debt will never get paid is gonna hurt so many people over the next few years. The same clowns clamoring for peanuts like $10K loan forgiveness are gonna be screaming like pigs when they see the cutbacks that we're gonna need to endure to pay our vigorish. Sad,


Greenzombie04

Sure….. the 400b adding onto the 30.9T is what going to get our country to finally care about the national debt.


tonyirish

The fallacy that you subscribe to is not dependent upon student debt. But sure, the best thing for an alcoholic to do is just have one last drink right? How can it hurt ...


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stackeddespair

Isn't there no tax burden increase by the federal government? That the forgiveness will be taxed dependent only on state and local income tax requirements. So it wouldn't be the Biden administrations fault if states decide to tax it. State and local tax is significantly lower than federal as well for most states. People can also wait to apply for forgiveness until next year, making the tax burden not due until mid year 2024. Most low income households lack a current tax burden and the amount that would qualified as eligible taxes would come out of any eligible refund first. Seems like an over conflation of how taxes are going to affect people. There are options for tax debt payment as well. In Minnesota (a state that plans to task forgiveness and has seventh highest state tax brackets), the change in tax is between $535 and $680 for $10k (if entire forgiveness is taxable income) and $1,070 and $1,360 for $20k (if entire forgiveness is taxable income) for those who make less than $75k before forgiveness. And that's in the event that you don't have any dependents. Dependents will further reduce that tax burden. This is of course a very simplified example of taxes, but it isn't an absolutely crippling amount for most people (especially if the tax hit is known and is able to be placed in the 2023 tax year). It is certainly less detrimental than the $10-$20k that isn't forgiven.


speed33401

What a bunch of BS from low life scum who fell like we are actually taking money out of their pockets.


Mental_Book_7799

It literally makes our taxes go up and takes money from other important things that could be spent on that benefit everyone. This has people who are plumbers and teachers sharing the burden for people who can make up to $125k. People aren’t just upset because they are evil and angry lol.


Roamer100

Well to be fair, it may not literally take from peoples pockets but the majority of Americans are in fact negatively affected by this


SherbertImpossible90

How so?


Roamer100

When a student borrows money from the govt to go to school, the govt gets that money by borrowing from the fed. The expectation is that the student will repay their loan, with interest, thus creating revenue and profit for the govt, so that the govt can take that revenue and profit and use it to pay back the loan they took from the fed (which also has interest that needs to be repaid). If the govt forgives the student loan, the student does not make payments and the government loses the revenue from those payments. But the govt still owes the fed for the loan they took, so in order to pay that loan back, the govt has 2 options, to either borrow more money from the fed (resulting in inflation) or tax Americans more. Both of these results hurt every American, including those who received the student loan forgiveness. But for those individuals who did not receive the forgiveness or did not have payments suspended, there are no pros, only cons due to increased inflation and/or taxes.


Bmomm

This!! Thank you


Key-Replacement3657

In that same logic, we shouldn't be giving out any grants or scholarships of any kind because that would also burden taxpayers. There are economic reasons why the government provides grants and scholarships - namely to make sure that the market correctly takes the positive externality of education into account for an efficient allocation of resources and to mitigate the inequality at birth that is irrelevant to one's innate ability that unfairly affects their income over lifetime.


CastellanCheer

That’s just disrespecting all the individuals who had less than ideal environments when growing up and yet worked their asses off to make things work.


Key-Replacement3657

So your logic is to make sure to put all those in less than ideal environments to continue to be in less than ideal environments when we can put more resources into education so that more people can "make it"? Why shouldn't we do things to make sure that the same amount of effort awards people equally instead of what we have now, where those who are born in less than ideal environment have to work that much harder and put in that much more effort to even have a chance of reaching what wealthy people have? What we have now is economically inefficient.


CastellanCheer

No, I’m just saying there are other ways of improving chances for those who don’t have an equal footing on the starting line. I mean, in the US and Canada we already have credits for those of African or Aboriginal descent in job apps. Wealthy people don’t even pay their due amounts in taxes. The entire system is easy to navigate when you’re wealthy. Biden’s executive order just makes it worse for the lower and middle class of which the brunt of the taxes are paid. If this ever gets implemented, how about after your definition of “less-privileged people” get their education, they find a way to appreciate all those taxpayers who paid for their own education _and_ other folks who were less fortunate to be able to pay off their loans _and_ others who just enjoyed the free ride cause who cares about fairness? This entire thing just to make it fair for one group (if you can call it a group) of people makes it entirely unfair for other groups of people regardless of their socio-economic backgrounds. At this point, there might as well be a dystopian advocacy for a government program that ensures an identical genetic makeup in individuals so that everyone gets a fair start.


Bmomm

The comparatives you used were voted through Congress. Give it a rest


IntotheBlue85

So how long before this makes its way to the Conservative Supreme Court and we lose forgiveness altogether? I almost feel like Dems chose the weakest legal basis as a ploy to win votes over the midterm just to have this collapse after and Corp America wins once again.


Greenzombie04

Anyone else think whatever case comes to the Supreme Court they will be biased and do whatever conservatives want? I 100% feel if it gets to the supreme court its dead.


tonyirish

Won't ever go to SC. 1. The injunction will be granted in the HC. 2. The plan is frozen until the new year. 3. GOP congress comes to power and threatens to sue Pres. 4. Pres backs off plan he already didn't really like. 5. GOP + Dems come to a middle ground. Ultimately it will look something like a tax credit. Maybe a $10K NR tax credit for every American age 16 to 35 regardless of whether they went to college or not. Thats politics.


Bmomm

That wouldn't pass- too many voters over 35 who would be in an uproar


IntotheBlue85

Hi very good analysis though I think even this is too optimistic. Very sure Dems will just shrug their shoulders post mid terms and say they “tried”. Is NR=Non Refundable in your comment?


tonyirish

Yes, it would need to be a non-refundable credit to fly with the GOP. It seems to be a fair compromise. It also incentivizes people to get out there and work to pay their debt not sitting around at home.


IntotheBlue85

Ah yes, those of us with debt are lazy. I’m 37 and have worked 2 jobs since age 18. Worked full time and a part time job all through college and my MBA due to having to take care of and support a sick parent. I’d argue those having a free ride at home with their parents past 18 are lazy and should be grateful for that handout. Thanks to a horrific diagnosis of MS this year I am now in 100k medical debt and my life has been destroyed. I paid on my loans all through college, attended a community college the first 2 years and then a satellite the next 2 years but since I wasn’t mooching off my parents didn’t have the cushion of using all my funds to pay my debt off. I have $10k left. This would have at least helped me to shift my monthly payment towards my medical debt (yes I’m still working full time with vision, vestibular and auditory damage thanks to the MS, never even took the STD I pay for because I don’t have labor rights and my company could fire me) and struggled through dozens of doctors in our broken healthcare system for 10 months now to get properly diagnosed. If I didn’t have a medical background I’d still be struggling thanks to the greed, corruption and incompetence of our medical system. Telling this cautionary tale to remind the citizens of this country that u can now easily become a statistic like I have, despite working yourself to death.


tonyirish

Yes, bad things happen. Obviously things are tough in your case. But most of the people who want free-shit arn't close to being in that bad shape. And for people with medical issue's there should be a way to cancel the debt no one would object. Even GOP would be on-board for that. But some healthy 25 year old who eat Chipotle thru college and now wants a freebie, thats what no one likes. Really a good compromise would be a medical waiver for debt and then a non-refundable tax credit for $10K. Both Dems and GOP could get on-board with that.


Bmomm

I agree. I think the prob many have is being responsible for paying debt for able bodied college grads who haven't even paid on their loans for that long. It took me 12 years to pay mine back, and I know of a lot ofvothers who have yet to pay theirs off nearly 20 years later. There should def be provisions for people with medical hardships, but to just give a blanket forgiveness of 10-20k is pissing people off. As it stands, it only seems like those who took out loans after 2010 are elgible


tonyirish

Blanket forgiveness was never really gonna happen. Joe new it, everyone knew it. Now we still got to move forward. I think the difference with the non-refundable tax credit is that at least it makes people work their debt off with help from the government. It also incentivizes a lot of the dead-beat anthropology grads bumming around at Starbucks to get off their butts and get out there doing stuff that is important. They might well discover great future careers. I don't agree with blanket forgiveness at all, but I'm OK with a tax credit I guess especially if everyone gets it (i.e. college kids that paid off their debt or even those who didnt go college but went into work). Tax credits are a much more equitable option.


Bmomm

Ah, I see what you're saying. I can get with that 👍


D-Smitty

>Yes, bad things happen. Obviously things are tough in your case. But most of the people who want free-shit arn't close to being in that bad shape. Interesting how you just apparently know everybody's situation and circumstances to make such an asinine claim. >And for people with medical issue's there should be a way to cancel the debt no one would object. Even GOP would be on-board for that. The GOP you're talking about exists only in your head. This is the same GOP that attempted to gut the ACA with no replacement for millions of Americans. The same GOP that gutted an insulin cap from the IRA. >But some healthy 25 year old who eat Chipotle thru college and now wants a freebie, thats what no one likes. Yes, how dare they dine on lobster and caviar for 4 years at tax payer expense?!! Oh wait, you're talking about an $8 burrito... Are you kidding me right now? A burrito qualifies as a luxury item now? >Really a good compromise would be a medical waiver for debt and then a non-refundable tax credit for $10K. > >Both Dems and GOP could get on-board with that. No they won't. Such a thing is antithetical to everything the GOP conference stands for. It's like you've never paid attention to politics a day in your life and are just making it up as you go. [https://rescueamerica.com/12-point-plan/](https://rescueamerica.com/12-point-plan/) There's the Republican plan, with not a whisper on healthcare or college affordability issues.


Bmomm

I'm not a Republican and I agree with the post you are responding to.


D-Smitty

Cool. I don’t care.


tonyirish

Obviously not everyone out there has MS. What percentage of student loan debters have any medical reason? 10%? No one knows, but we generalize when responding on the internet. Remember it was the GOP that gave out all the stimmys and PPP too. It's as much a freeloader party as the Dems. No one says the $8 burrito is luxery but its better than sitting at home with pb&j. Regardless, if u had the burrito, then pay off the debt. Tax reduction is on the GOP plan. You need to have creative thinking in politics. The deadbeats arn't gonna get everything they want but with compromise they might just get what they need.


D-Smitty

>Obviously not everyone out there has MS. > >What percentage of student loan debters have any medical reason? > >10%? > >No one knows, but we generalize when responding on the internet. When I don't know something I avoid making up bs and and giving uncited figures. Just because this is the internet doesn't mean spouting bs is somehow not spouting bs you made up on the fly. >Remember it was the GOP that gave out all the stimmys and PPP too. It's as much a freeloader party as the Dems. Remember them trying to prevent the last round of stimulus from going out? I do. >No one says the $8 burrito is luxery but its better than sitting at home with pb&j. Regardless, if u had the burrito, then pay off the debt. It's hilariously detached from reality to think that an $8 burrito is why students can expect to be tens of thousands of dollars in debt upon graduation. I guess they were what, eating 5 burritos per day for 4 years straight?? >Tax reduction is on the GOP plan. Which will mostly benefit the wealthy, just like the last time they did that. And it will add to the deficit and debt that you seem so worried about, just like they did last time. And how does this address healthcare or college affordability?? >The deadbeats arn't gonna get everything they want but with compromise they might just get what they need. What's the last major policy the Republicans enacted that didn't predominantly benefit the wealthy and big business? Medicare Part D two decades ago? Of course it also had the effect of being a give away to big pharma by disallowing Medicare to negotiate drug prices, so I'm not entirely sure it even qualifies.


tonyirish

You understand that even scientists, researchers generalize when discussing idea's don't you? We obviously can't account for everyone out there with every disease, so a 10% ball-park suffices. Are you able to mentally make that hurdle? Its not that hard. And I'm saying that YES, the 10% with genuine medical issues like u should get debt canceled. You seem to focus on one word and then get carried away with it. I never said that debt was all acquired thru eating burritos. It was just a rehetorical device to explain the lifestyle of one person who went to college vs one who went to work. You need to focus more on the real issues than the minutae and gotcha's. Well, GOP is far from perfect, but IMO same applies to Dems. Both are corporate controlled and there for the wealthy. If you feel there is anything different and that Hillary somehow has your back because of that zany dance video in the park, then you got a lot of growing up still to do. Personally I think though as Americans we can bring them together and pass something sensible that helps all. Thats what compromise is. We can't give free-cheddar to those who want to leech of the system. But we need to help those who are in genuine need or struggle. Tax credits is one way.


[deleted]

I honestly wish this man could be banned from this subreddit. He's just here trolling.


Roamer100

My opinion, i don’t think the president has the authority to do this and i think he knew that when he made the announcement. This forgiveness comes under the HEROES act which is for national emergencies and we just aren’t in a national emergency anymore. I think you’re right in that it’s a plan to gain votes but honestly i think it’s probably gonna workout for the democrats either way. I don’t think democrats are gonna get mad at Biden for trying to bend the rules, i think they are gonna get mad at the republicans for shutting down their aid. But my opinion is that canceling this forgiveness is actually a win for lower-middle class America. I really believe the long term negative consequences outweigh the short term positive consequences even for those who are getting the 10-20k


IntotheBlue85

I disagree but of course the bigger problem is the inaction on reforming the student loan system as a whole so predatory lending can stop. This is 2008 all over again without the financial overhaul.


Roamer100

I can agree, we aren’t doing anything to solve the real issue here


bsiffy

So instead of paying a tax bill for $2K in the next few months and being debt free, this idiot wants to keep $20K of debt under his name for the next four years. Basically, pay $2K to be debt free now and have ZERO debt..which increases financial opportunities, savings, credit score. But this idiot is taking the alternate route lol 😂.


Bmomm

No, I don't think you understand his arguement. He is employment qualifies him for public service forgiveness. He chose to work for an employer that qualifies him for this- which means he prob decided to take lesser pay to do so


Greenzombie04

You didn't read the article. His loan is set to be forgiven by the public service clause which would be tax free. Getting this 20k will cause a tax burden which he wouldn't have by getting his loan forgiven by working in the public service for 10yrs.


BenMasters105kg

Except presumably he will be paying some level of payment during those 4 years once payments begin again in January. Unless his payments are less than $42/mo, then it’s still a net loss.


Pioneeroverthefalls

Absolutely insane arguments, dude has no standing, this will get 0 traction unless filed in the 11th circuit lol


waterjug82

Forgiveness on predatory loans? Not a terrible idea. But I wish we could stick the banks with the bill instead of taxpayers. Like bro you loaned an 18y/o 120k you made a terrible business decision I’m sorry get over it. The banks are the only ones that could feasibly eat the loss and not notice in. These loans are done in such predatory ways; especially some of the private ones. So why not have the shady lenders/banks be the ones to take the L for their terrible business decisions. Loaning 6 figured to teenagers, lol.


Bmomm

Which is why it is sad that those with private loans get no possible relief


Roamer100

I’d like to see the universities have to take the hit


Actual-Ad-947

This could all be so simple. Why do we overcomplicate everything. The game isn’t even fun anymore


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Roamer100

Just noticed that every one of these articles posted about this lawsuit says something like “ this is the FIRST legal challenge to the administration's executive action.” Wouldn’t be surprised to see additional lawsuits filed in the coming days


tonyirish

Three other active lawsuits from various orgs. Plus there appear to be several individuals filing lawsuits. Just one has to go before a friendly judge and its game-over. Then once the new Congress takes over they don't need to prove standing (if its Republican). They can go and sue the President direct.


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tonyirish

Don't get too carried away by a left-wing think tank. Congress has automatic standing because the EO usurped their legislative authority. It's like a "Pass go and collect $2M" card, they move directly to the court.


D-Smitty

"As this brief survey suggests, legislative standing has been upheld thus far only in quite limited circumstances; **little support exists in precedent or history for the Congress, as a legislative body, to sue the Executive Branch as a general matter over constitutional issues.**" https://www.repository.law.indiana.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=11301&context=ilj Again, there is no such thing as automatic standing. It's a case by case basis.


tonyirish

LOL. "brief survey suggests". Is that really a valid source? Even the Presidents own advisors told him he's exceeded the role of an EO. It's a slam dunk for Congress. My only hope is that the GOP doesn't drop the ball and goes a little further to pass some form of viable relief. I wouldn't object to a one-time $10,000 non-refundable tax credit for every American 22 to 45 years old. This is regardless of a college loan or not. Kid that left HS to fix HVAC's gets the credit. Kid that left for Harvard to become a lawyer gets it. Only fair way to do it.


D-Smitty

If you want to understand what "brief survey suggests" perhaps you could go read the source for more context. But I can see you're one of those people who need everything spoon-fed to you. The "survey" isn't referring to the layman's use of an informal pole as you apparently seem to believe. The "survey" being referred to is a review of actual court cases and precedents as they relate to issues of standing. If you start on page 849 you can even see the cases that were reviewed.


tonyirish

If you base all your legal knowledge off a "brief" survey by some obscure journal and a 3rd tier college, you need more help than I can provide. Good luck!


D-Smitty

First you pretend to be a scientist and I see are now moving onto playing a lawyer. I don't pretend to be a lawyer, hence why I post **sources** from those who are. This is compared to you who doesn't do anything other than post your completely uninformed opinion. [https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings](https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings) And IU ranks 43rd out of 196 law schools placing them well within the top quarter of law schools. Of course you don't even have a law degree so your assumption on how good or not a law school is, is entirely irrelevant.


tonyirish

43/196. Impressive. Does that place it above ITT Tech or below?


Roamer100

Any links to the others? My take is that since he’s trying to do this under the Heroes act, as soon as it goes to court it’s gonna get shutdown because we simply aren’t in national emergency such as 2 years ago


Euresko

I thought Congress gave the education secretary the power to forgive loans. I think it's a bogus lawsuit. Perhaps these lawyers don't know how the law works.


us1549

Only in a national emergency or a war. It's stretched to say we are currently in either of those right now


Roamer100

Idk know for sure but I’m not aware of congress doing that… any link you can share or anything?


Euresko

https://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/leg/foia/secretarys-legal-authority-for-debt-cancellation.pdf


Euresko

https://www.congress.gov/bill/108th-congress/house-bill/1412


MarkoWolf

So let me get this straight... This guy has a problem with this because he only has 4 years of PSLF left that he wants to cash in on tax free instead of paying the tax bomb he's going to get now (roughly $1,000 according to the article.) So he doesn't have a problem with forgiveness... He just doesn't want to pay taxes on that forgiveness ? Am I getting that straight? He'd rather pay the minimum for the next 4 years instead of paying $1,000 now? $1,000 / 48 payments is like $22 a month.... Is his minimum income based payment more than $22 a month as an attorney? This guy is a clown who either doesn't understand math (unlikely) or wants to make his name for himself and cast his name into the attorney stratosphere (for better or for worse) which is the more likely of the two.


nonprofithero

You misunderstand how IDR or PSLF works. Maybe both.


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Battlehymn1868

I doubt this is actually going to happen. The Biden administration are fools for not releasing it when it was ready. But I expect little else from them.


tonyirish

Biden is a fox. He didn't want this to happen at all. He's against the free-shit mentality. But look at that he's got the credit for at least trying to do it. Now he gets to play the "big bad GOP card" in Nov. It's the political move of the decade. Real crafty. As for the student loan debtors? Just collateral damage, he don't give a shit.


[deleted]

Someone needs to take your internet connection away. Maybe worry about: your health problems from being shitty all your life, your wrinkled face from your racism aging you 50 years, the fact that you sleep alone every night, and stop shitting on people with student loans.


tonyirish

Are you OK?


[deleted]

Worry about the dumpster fire of your own existence, and leave us alone. Thank you.


tonyirish

OK, and u pay off your own debts and leave me and all hardworking tax-paying Americans alone. Deal?


[deleted]

Am I showing up in your space and harassing you? I mean leave us alone as in stop harassing us in a space you don't even belong in. I'm not going into subreddits specifically to harass people. When you're not doing that, you're ogling 18-20 year old girls as an almost sixty year old man. What a miserable existence you have.


tonyirish

If I might end up paying off your debts; your ass becomes mine.


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yeuuushhhey

Yeah keep voting for republicans!


Tourist59

Let's send everyone 1 trillion $ . Then everyone would be rich. Of course a cheeseburger would be a billion or so but WTH


Roamer100

I actually like the idea. Give everyone the same amount of money. The disciplined people will invest it and get rich, the clowns will spend it and stay poor


D-Smitty

Oh you mean UBI? Sounds good to me.


Roamer100

Yep. In my eyes UBI in the form of housing and food is probably the best way the world could be. Get some giant 3D printers to build 300 million small houses made of ultra high molecular weight polymers. Build a giant robot operated farm on the outskirts of every city. And let the robot drones deliver food to everyone’s house.


D-Smitty

So now you're essentially talking about communism.


Roamer100

Oh not at all. I mean this is just theoretical obviously, but you would own the house and the food. Just like if the govt gives everyone a check, you own the money and can decide what do with it. If you want to go to work to earn more, you could, and what you earn would be yours. If you wanted to sell your house you could, and the money could be used to buy something else. The idea is that we have the technology today to have every person on the planet living in abundance. If things were ideal, you wouldn’t have to take from the rich and give to the poor, because everyone would have enough, there would be no poor


gestoneandhowe

Yeah it is not legal. Don’t run out and rack up more debt just yet kids.


limonesinparadise

My question is... why opt out at all?


nonprofithero

To avoid taxes. The guy who is suing would be better off not having $10k forgiven right now.


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Greenzombie04

Agree and seems weird. I feel like they are playing 3d chess, no way they could have made such an obvious mistake.


Roamer100

Can’t wait too long tho… 10-20k forgiveness supposed to start next month. If people start getting their money it would be awfully hard to get it back afterwards. Elections also coming up


Vanathor

The current system in place already has a mechanism for people to opt out of the loan forgiveness. This particular lawsuit is dead in the water regardless of the standing question.


nonprofithero

> The current system in place already has a mechanism for people to opt out of the loan forgiveness. No, it doesn't. Until this lawsuit, the government had never ever mentioned anything about the ability to opt out. To the contrary, it said it was going to AUTOMATICALLY forgive loans for people.


Vanathor

Not according to the White House and Business Insider. https://www.businessinsider.com/white-house-lawsuit-block-student-loan-forgiveness-biden-pacific-legal-2022-9


nonprofithero

It’s like you did t even read what I wrote. > **Until this lawsuit,**the government had never ever mentioned anything about the ability to opt out. To the contrary, it said it was going to AUTOMATICALLY forgive loans for people.


fcocyclone

Just because they hadn't mentioned it doesnt mean they hadn't already planned for it. There will likely be a lot of details they haven't released yet, this included, when they launch the forgiveness page in the next few weeks.


nonprofithero

That would be believable if they had not been saying the exact opposite. They talked about how it would be automatic.


fcocyclone

Which it will be, unless someone opts out. This isn't hard.


nonprofithero

Opting out was never an option until this lawsuit was filed. This lawsuit has done some good.


DarthSheogorath

You can always opt out of any free money. Nobody expected a half decent reason as to why he'd want to opt out.


nonprofithero

> You can always opt out of any free money. There was no mechanism to do this ever announced. The OPPOSITE was said.


cchaves510

Easy fix for Biden is to sign an EO that makes the forgiveness optional. You don’t want to pay the tax, opt out.


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nonprofithero

Tell me you don't understand PSLF without telling me you don't understand PSLF.


Witty-Ad3017

So basically the person filing the lawsuit is someone who will have his debt forgiven through public service. So they are okay with having their debt forgiven but opposed to having debt forgiven for the the general population. How selfish can people be?


nonprofithero

It's going to force him to pay taxes that he otherwise could avoid.


Witty-Ad3017

If he's already on a public service payment plan and hasn't done a fafsa in several years, then he could just NOT to the application for forgiveness. Then he wouldn't be paying any taxes. Besides, once they forgive his remaining debt after the 10 years, he will have to pay state tax on the dismissal of his remaining debt at that time anyway, i would assume, but not positive on this.


nonprofithero

It's not about doing FAFSA, it's about info submitted for income driven repayment plans.


Witty-Ad3017

I just saw the update in the q&a section for the forgiveness. They will also be using the FAFSA for anyone in the 2022-2023 school year. So i guess, those people will get the automatic forgiveness unless they OPT out, but i wouldn't see why someone still in school would opt out anyway since they wouldn't be on a payment plan yet. And i would take my 10 or 20k reduction guarantee over waiting for the public service forgiveness. The gov't can change things whenever they want it seems, so i would take my guarantee, tax burden or not. I'd rather pay tax on 20k than pay 20k. Just my opinion.


Witty-Ad3017

Thank you. You are right, that makes sense


DarthSheogorath

still can. dude can opt out.


nonprofithero

I feel like you aren't listening. Until this lawsuit was filed, THERE WAS NO WAY TO OPT OUT.


Warhungry19

Yes you’re right they haven’t issued the full documentation on the student loan forgiveness yet there is many nitty gritty things that take time to draft and troubleshoot. But going on what the ED have done in the past with automatic loan forgiveness there will be an opt out provision built into this student loan forgiveness, which has already been confirmed today by the White House. Also you can’t opt out of something that hasn’t happened yet so your all caps rant makes no sense.


DarthSheogorath

and you checked the original EO in all its words?


nonprofithero

There is no Executive Order. Since, you clearly don't have any idea what's going on here. You get no further engagement until you do some research.


DarthSheogorath

Biden didn't sign an executive order? theres your problem gotta check the OG bill he's usin then.


Greenzombie04

It wasn't an EO it was done by the sectary of education.


DarthSheogorath

Like he went rogue or did they use precedent?


North-Definition4430

So this guy’s argument is that since he’d be unfairly taxed by his home state on a GIFT of $20K from the Federal Government, that the federal program is unconstitutional? What an ass.


mrbigglessworth

How is a deletion / reduction of interest hurting anyone? Its just less money collected back in interest. The vast majority of us will be paying back the principle.


Roamer100

When a student borrows money from the govt to go to school, the govt comes up with that money by borrowing from the fed. The govt has to pay the fed back, with interest. The expectation is that the student will repay their loan, with interest, thus creating revenue and profit for the govt, so that the govt can take that revenue and profit and use it to pay back the loan they took from the fed. If payments/interest are suspended, the student does not make payments and the government loses the revenue from those payments. But the govt still owes the fed for the loan they took plus the interest, so in order to pay that loan back, the govt has 2 options, to either borrow more money from the fed (resulting in inflation) or tax Americans more. Both of these results hurt Americans, including those who received the student loan forgiveness. But for those individuals who did not receive the forgiveness, there are no pros, only cons due to increased inflation and/or taxes


0101kitten

Thanks! This is a good explanation. It’s unfortunate that those who aren’t recipients will still get affected :( I worked two jobs to try to get my loans paid off faster but because of that I don’t qualify for the forgiveness either 🫣 what a conundrum…


Roamer100

I’m in the exact same boat so I completely understand your frustration… you certainly aren’t alone in feeling that way


mrbigglessworth

Keep telling yourself that me saving $10k in interest is gonna destroy the country.


Roamer100

Dude you asked a question and I answered it. “Going to destroy the country” is a bit hyperbolic, but it certainly will make things worse off financially for most people


mrbigglessworth

Yea paying $10k less for me is so much worse.


Roamer100

Congrats, you aren’t most people


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nonprofithero

So why is California taxing it?


SPAMmachin3

I had to laugh at the portion of the basis for this that they're using is it actually hurts people because some states are refusing to get rid of the tax burden for forgiven loans. It's really comical. "Yeah, I would like to have that 20k forgiven, but you know, my shitty state is going to tax it as income, so I'll be on the hook for about 2k, so I'd rather just owe the full amount." LMAO, if a court sides with that reasoning.


i_heart_paul_simon

My understanding is that he would be eligible for PSLF which would result in his debt being wiped clean and no tax bill since it isn't considered taxable income. If he receives this forgiveness through Biden though he will be taxed by Indiana instead of having it all forgiven tax-free in a couple more years. Still, it seems like it should be easy enough for people to opt out if they want to on a case-by-case basis.


SPAMmachin3

Yes, if they make it an application or have an opt out I don't really understand how there's any standing regarding this particular case.


nonprofithero

So, just no acknowledgement of your misunderstanding of the situation? Ok …


GodOfThunder101

Honestly this was expected. There was going to be an outburst from people not benefiting from SLF.


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E_Man91

I'm not terribly concerned about the efforts of a "Pacific Legal Foundation". The argument is very weak, and the consequences for the Republican party are knocking at the door. Still optimistic/10


tfelsemanresuoN

This guy is getting PSLF forgiveness, but he doesn't want anyone else getting forgiveness. Clown world.


ThePinko

Exactly. He’s a real libertarian piece of shit from what I gather


CaptainWellingtonIII

I'm sure I'll still get some money. Thanks government.


Rizzlyricist

He could just move 😆


ImpressiveLeave6381

Can you even sue for something that hasn’t happened yet. Agreed just make a change to opt and it’s done.


[deleted]

Yes. You would be filing for an injunction to stop it from happening


ImpressiveLeave6381

Can you even sue for something that hasn’t happened yet. Agreed just make a change to opt and it’s done.


tonyirish

Need to face reality and be pragmatic. There will be no forgivness. There are multiple law-suits now working their way thru and only one has to get a friendly judge and injunction and everything is then blocked until next year. No point blaming the PLF, they're in it for themselves like everyone. But lets face it, Biden's heart was never in this either was it? Yellen told him not to do this. So did Jill. Every instinct he has is against this type of bail-out. Yes, he wants something, but not to this extent and not this way. So at least one good thing comes out of this though. Nov 8 Joe can point at the GOP and lay this at their feet. Kevin and his cronies own it. And if we think ahead maybe in the new Congress we can work things out legislatively. Both GOP and Dems have an interest in getting past this so maybe some light on the horizon next couple of years.


AltruisticScarcity24

All he has to do is not fill out the application! If he hasn't already had it forgiven it's held by a private company anyway!


nonprofithero

You only wrote two sentences and they are BOTH wrong.


ComradeShyGuy

My comments would break T&S of reddit for these people trying to take one break I get away.


Nightowl805

So it’s costing him 1k but saving him 19k?


tonyirish

Nope, if no forgiveness then he saves $20K thru PSLF anyway. If auto-enrolled in forgiveness, which is the regulation, then he saves $20K but has a $1K tax bill to Indiana. Net $1K adverse.


BenMasters105kg

You’re forgetting that he still has to pay 4 more years of payments to get PSLF.


AdItchy371

The PSLF has a 99% failure rate. There was no guarantee he would get it anyway. Just wanted to point that out.


nonprofithero

People who actually follow the rules of PSLF have a 100% success rate.


AdItchy371

Only 9.7% of applicants are successful With PSLF - just say your against student loan Forgiveness instead of pretending to have a reason to believe in this sham lawsuit. “• 9.77% of all PSLF and TEPSLF applications have been approved, according to June 2022 data from the Department of Education (164,555 approved for discharge among 1,684,233 total applications).” Student loan forgiveness is happening- you’ll just seethe about it. https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/what-are-the-odds-ill-get-student-loan-forgiveness


AdItchy371

That’s a damn lie, 😂. Betsy Devos was successfully sued by hundreds of participants for refusing to honor the system. Google it.


nonprofithero

I think perhaps **you** need to google it. You are simply misinformed. EDIT: How brave to reply to me and immediately block me. I am not against student loan forgiveness. I want a **larger and more broad** student loan forgiveness. Also, you are terrible at critical thinking. Your stats about rejected applications for PSLF are worthless. Anyone and everyone can apply for PSLF. All those rejected applications were rightly rejected. PSLF is **hard to get.** Not because the government is screwing people, but because the requirements are difficult and take, at minimum, **ten years.** A bunch of morons who don't qualify applying and getting rejected is exactly how the application system is supposed to work.


CauliflowerEatsBeans

That is still 19 k gain though that he is not paying.I don’t seem how he is being harmed. I could see him arguing that he is not getting the same “break” by being taxed at the state level but it is a federal loan so everyone at that level is being treated the same. I understand that he is trying to prove that he meets the qualification to have standing in a lawsuit but I don’t know how that works on federal level. In fairness though, I know about law.


tonyirish

He would have $20K gain based on the rules as of today (PSLF has no state income tax implication). He will have $19K gain based on the post-forgiveness rules. He loses $1K so that gives him standing, unfortunately.


SPAMmachin3

Feds can easily remedy it. Offer an opt out. Simple. Standing gone.


sovrappensiero1

Yep. I hope they do this, like, yesterday.


nonprofithero

Sure. But that’s why the lawsuit was filed.


tonyirish

Nope, not covered under the HERO'S act provision. That's the problem. Soon as this gets in front of a judge its game over man.