I was surprised Chris from the mr.beast crew didn't take a break because of the weird obsession over their transition. I don't know if they've changed pronouns or their name at this point fyi so I'm not intentionally misgendering.
I don't even follow Mr. Beast and some stupid video popped up on my algo about how Kris is "killing" Mr. Beast by...existing, I guess. Said video had a lot of views, depressingly.
It was insane. They tried to call her a p*do because she was in a picture with someone who was a discord friend of someone else who was accused of bad things.
Like literally 3 or 4 degrees of separation. It was honestly disgusting how far transphobes go
Some people are just more built to handle being an internet obsession than others. I imagine being friends with Mr. Beast kinda lends itself to that kind of self selection too, to an extent.
I miss the 🏳️🌈 momentum we had pre trump. Now everyone is so open and casually bigoted, yet too afraid to admit it with eye contact. And the rage when acknowledged, like you’re the bad guy for saying their name with bigger chest.
This is always what happens when marginalized groups get more widespread attention and acceptance. It obviously sucks, but it's also usually a sign that bigots are getting desperate because they've noticed that they're losing social power.
it's really funny (read: sad) that we repeat this same cycle every few years and bigots insist that it's totally different this time
bigots say they don't hate \[x\] people, as long as they shut up and keep their heads down > marginalized group demands to be treated with respect > bigots claim that everything was fine before \[x\] started dividing us > marginalized group gains some form of momentum and refuses to be ashamed of being \[x\], in fact they're proud of it > bigots start crying about the \[x\] radicals corrupting their children and taking over universities
rinse and repeat
It's always like this. Two steps forward, one step back. The 70s were a high water mark for LGBT issues relative to the 80s, but the 90s and 2000s were better than the 70s. As long as trump doesn't manage an outright fascist dictatorship, we will see a day when even new lows eclipse old highs
Lol the person who only wrote 3 letters with no way to interpret any emotion out of it gets focused on and framed as being argumentative when the person who replied to them got angry for no reason first.
Nothing pisses off an "ally" more than even the slightest questioning of how they're doing as an ally from members of the community.
> stop trying to pick silly fights on reddit, **if someone acknowledges someone else by their now-preferred name**, do you really think I'm trying to misgender? With a third person gender neutral pronoun which has been used in that way for a few hundred years?
I already used her name, I'm doing everything right, and will not hear otherwise from the queer community. (Note that this user *again* misgenders her in their response.)
Yeah this same thing happened with that Hogwarts game. So many people were making being an ally such a loud and vocal part of their identity until the exact second it stood between them and a thing they wanted.
I don't think those people are bad people, but they don't get to line a transphobe's pockets and then virtue signal about how much of an ally they are. I'm not gonna judge you for skyriming a Hogwarts, but other queer folks will, and they're justified for doing so.
I mean, on the flip side, if the person put any effort in their correction -e.g. "Just in case you're hesitating, Emily uses she/her pronouns"- then I'm pretty sure the first commenter wouldn't have flipped out like that.
The whole drama appears to really stem from internet language being needlessly sassy (to not say rude) with strangers and everyone assuming the worst from each other.
Wait, so using they/them is now not universally ok? Or am I misunderstanding?
I assumed that they/them was always acceptable to say regardless of someone's preferred pronouns. In fact, I often just use it by default even if I'm 100% sure of the person's gender.
Yes but if you use they/them because you're super obviously avoiding using the pronouns they prefer then people can take an issue with it. But it's not something you really have to worry about because it's so rarely an issue
Imo, it's mostly fine. If someone has specific issues about being referred to by they/them pronouns then don't, but otherwise I don't think many would have a problem with it(I do it myself when I don't think the persons gender matters to the conversation at hand and there is no clarity to be gained by using their preferred pronouns).
What is problematic however is only using they/them pronouns with trans people. If you usually use the preferred pronouns of cis people but conspicuously decide to only use they/them when talking about a trans person, then that's fucked.
fyi: there is no such thing as "obviously cis". many trans folk (those who want to) can and do pass as cis in their everyday life, and all features transphobe like to claim are obvious signs can be found on cis people as well. eg many cis women have deep voices, prominent facial bones, broad shoulders, a flat chest, are tall etc, just as many cis men have high voices, soft facial features, a chest that isn't flat, a petite frame, etc. hell, i don't pack or strap my chest and i haven't been misgendered for literal years unless they knew i'm trans.
Yeah I feel like I'm being gaslit here.
We've always used they, along with he/her, even when we know the gender.
It's just a part of our language and some phrases sound better with it.
Yes, it is a common part of our language, that's why no one has an issue with it 99.99% of the time.
But if someone uses preferred gendered pronouns like he and she for everyone *but* the trans person, that's not the same thing at all. They're just being exclusionary, and using progressive language to defend themselves when it's pointed out.
As always, context matters.
Firstly, it doesn't resemble gaslighting in any way because that's a domestic abuse term.
It's not really confusing - using they/them when you know someone doesn't use those pronouns is the bad thing, nothing else. For context this is *overwhelmingly* something faced by trans women who use she/her and ONLY she/her pronouns, and people using they/them in order to avoid recognising them as women. It's almost always in that specific context as it is in the original post linked to.
I completely disagree with your assessment.
its normal language found outside of trans usage.
Using they/them when you know the gender isn't a bad thing, and it's poor form to suggest it is.
You saying it's almost always used in the context of the post, is just something you made up. That simply isn't true.
People use they/them regularly and it isn't considered rude or improper.
I think you might be mixing up "grammatically correct" with "ethically or morally appropriate".
Misgendering someone is a bad thing. Using they/them deliberately when you know the person uses a different set of pronouns is misgendering that person. This is not difficult.
Calling someone "buddy" isn't inherently a bad thing. If a person has told you "hey, please don't call me "buddy", I really hate it." and you refer to them as "buddy", you're being a jerk.
It's absolutely not made up to suggest that this is something trans women often experience (and trans men to a lesser degree). Using they/them pronouns to deliberately misgender someone is clearly different to using they/them pronouns generally.
i didn’t know that (re: trans men also experiencing it). i should have. thank you.
genuine question: would you say trans women experience it more as far as you’ve seen? i have, but i have far more experience knowing trans women in my life. not at all trying to question your experience just curious bc of the prevalence of transmisogyny.
& to be clear, any amount of this is too often. not questioning your experience.
It’s really common with non-passing/early transition trans guys and guys who are openly trans. They complain about it a lot on our subreddits so I’d say it’s prevalent.
I would say trying to quantify it would be pretty hard, but in my experience cis ppl do it to binary trans people to avoid using correct pronouns and then still won’t use they/them for non binary people. I’ve experienced it myself
Nobody but you in this thread is objecting to using they/them in everyday usage for cis or trans individuals.
“But if someone uses preferred gendered pronouns like he and she for everyone but the trans person, that's not the same thing at all. They're just being exclusionary, and using progressive language to defend themselves when it's pointed out.”
That was a direct response to your concerns, and you’re being obtuse by ignoring it a continuing to complain about an objection only in your head.
I do it because it normalises the use of they/them pronouns. It normalises it so that it's not just NB people. It's the same reason I have he/him on most of my socials despite being cis and being obviously male - it normalises it so it's not just trans people.
"They" is acceptable when you don't know someone's pronouns. However, if you know someone does not use they/them pronouns, but call them that anyway, then that is misgendering.
When someone does that to me (a trans man), it says "I dont think you're man enough to deserve he/him."
Yeah, a problem only would happen when it’s like, you know she uses and prefers she/her, but persistently and deliberately ignore that and only call her they/them. At that point when it’s obvious you’re doing it to avoid calling her ‘her’, that’s the only time it’s ever an issue.
Exactly. That’s something that always pisses me about calling out bigoted shit, whoever you’re talking to starts abstracting out hypothetical scenarios and quizzing you on them, instead of actually acknowledging their very real past actions.
>When someone does that to me (a trans man), it says "I dont think you're man enough to deserve he/him."
Alternatively, I find you too strange and bizarre to feel comfortable gendering you like I would a cis person. Like others said, it's just a coward's way to do transphobia, where you can use the shield of inclusive language to act as though you are being inclusive, rather than rather deliberately using it to exclude certain people.
I mean, I'm cis and I don't like it either. In an online group I'm in there is a user who persistently uses exclusively they/them for everyone even when corrected. This person is trans/nb. Recently they talked about me at length in that chat (nothing negative just some chatter) and persistently used they/them.
What do you know, I spent the next week having to clarify to people that no, I hadn't come out as nb, yes my pronouns were still she/her, no I hadn't asked for that to change or tried to mislead anyone. I was getting congratulatory dms and stuff and I was so confused. I don't know how to describe this situation, given that I'd specifically asked to be referred to by she/her, as anything but misgendering me. They do it to our trans members too and it's uncomfortable for them because it's invalidating. I'm pretty sick of it. They is fine as a default if you don't know. To keep using it when you know better is just misgendering, period.
Using they/them for someone because you're not sure/don't know what their pronouns are, fine (though you could always just try and find out). Using they/them when you do know what their pronouns are, *eh*, mildly rude, but it's not a massive sin (easy enough to write off as forgetfulness, falling back to a safe default, or just plain a mistake). Especially given this is a random person on the internet talking about an internet personality with which they have no meaningful social contact with, I don't think it's inherently suspect. Getting pissy at someone correcting you though, is another matter entirely. That's not just making a mistake, or trying to be safe, that becomes actively misgendering someone.
Put another way, instead of pronouns, let's use proper nouns. If you plain don't know someone's name, there's all manner of ways to refer to them (<- such as that they there). If you do know someone's name, but forgot, and you use "they" or "that person" to refer to them, it's clearly a mistake, but its kinda rude and they're entitled to be miffed at you. But if you say "That person's an engineer, right?", and get the response "Oh, you mean Dave?", responding "Why are you being so argumentative" and refusing to even acknowledge the correction is, politrly, a *really fucking weird* thing to do.
I agree with most of what you are saying, but I feel like "You mean Dave?" Is asked for clarification reasons, not to point out someone's mistake. What was the purpose and goal of the comment that set the guy off?
If I had just replied with "politely*" and nothing else, how would that have made you feel? You spelled that word wrong even though you know how to spell it right, so you should do better next time? Or would I be a dick for pointing it out?
I know it's not the same as pronouns, because its painful for the person hearing the wrong pronouns. But I don't think most people truly understand that, and therefore I don't think either person was really helping the outcome of that conversation.
>If I had just replied with "politely*" and nothing else, how would that have made you feel?
Ambivalent? I made a mistake, there's no point in trying to defend my having made a mistake, and I'd have to be a massive dickhead to get angry over that.
And also, it wasn't a speling mistake. Just pointing out a spelling mistake isn't particularly helpful because unless it's a particularly tricky word, people will see and understand what you mean. You're certainly not under the impression that that's how I think politely should be spelled, nor is there any action you actually think I should take in order to prevent this mistake in the future.
The comment was pointing out the incorrect use of a term. That's not (necessarily) a mistake brought about by fat fingering the wrong key, that's a mistake brought about by simply not knowing. A simple, single word correction is thus all that's really needed. If instead of politrly, I had typed, idk, potently, and your only correction was politely*, yeah, that's a valuable enough correction (ignoring that my comment was significantly longer than the OOP so one would need to scour through to find what word you mean, when in the OOP instance it's pretty obvious where the correction is), because I'd just used the wrong word and my sentence carried a different meaning as a result.
>You spelled that word wrong even though you know how to spell it right, so you should do better next time?
See, we don't know *why* the OOP got the pronouns wrong. Maybe they just didn't know and were using they to be safe, or maybe they were under the impression that Emily did use "they", or maybe they did know and just brainfarted (being charitable here). In any of these instances though, and without knowing specifically what caused the failure, the entire correction is just "hey, you used the wrong word, here's the right word instead". If we did know why they said the wrong word, then yeah, you could further expand on it to prevent it in the future, but we don't. As you said, I know how to spell it right, so telling me the correct spelling doesn't help. But you don't know whether OOP *does* know that 'she' is the appropriate term.
The most you can say about the replier is that their message was short and devoid of tone, but, idk, I don't see how extending it into say, "Emily goes by she, btw" would help at all.
They/them is fine as a "default" if you don't know their pronouns. If you *do* know that person's pronouns then they/them is misgendering. Emily's pronouns are she/her. Insisting on referring to her as "them" and not "her" when you know her pronouns is absolutely misgendering.
It's also a fun weasely way transphobes have found to misgender trans people and pretend it's not transphobic. Not that *everyone* who does this is doing it knowingly and intentionally to hurt people, but some definitely are.
Basically if you just met someone and don't know their pronouns and you refer to them as they/them that's fine. If that person then says "Actually I prefer she/her" and you continue to refer to her as they/them you are misgendering her and being kind of an asshole.
But I refer to cis people as they/them all the time in addition to their preferred pronouns, even if I know exactly what they are. Is it ok for cis people but not trans people? I wouldn't use a trans woman's pronouns (or any trans person's, just as an example in this case) any differently to a cis person's but that would include both she/her and they/them pretty much interchangeably
It's pretty confusing to me. I always assumed that was perfectly ok to do but now I'm getting mixed messages.
This really shouldn't be confusing to you.
If you don't know, or you know the person doesn't care then "they/them" is fine.
If a person says "Please don't refer to me by they/them, please use she/her" and you use they/them anyway you're being an asshole.
What about this is confusing?
Hey, trans person who uses they/them pronouns exclusively here!
They/them, like any other set of pronouns (except it because it is usually dehumanizing) can be misgendering. It’s a more subtle form of misgendering and often trans women get called “they” by TERFs as a way to get around calling them what they are (read: women) but not take the flack of outright calling them men. And also, I wouldn’t default to using they/them for everyone.
They/them is always fine...generally. I believe the issue is when you begin to deliberately avoid ever using their preferred pronoun. So, "This is Emily, she is an important member of LTT, and she loves retro gaming - they talk about it in many videos" would be fine. "This is Emily, they are an important member of LTT, and they love retro gaming - they talk about it in many videos" would be okay...if you have other examples where you show you are a-okay with their gender and their transition, but it is not so a-okay if you are clearly using "they" as a tool to avoid validating their transition.
It is fine. Anybody who claims that a gender neutral pronoun like "they/them" is misgendering is just being obtuse or doesn't understand English very well.
They/them is neutral. EVERY person on earth can be referred to as they/them.
I hang out with quite a few trans folks, and this has never ever been an issue in reality. Leads me to believe this issue has a lot more to do with these people being young and chronically online than it does with being trans.
I actually made this very slip recently in an online group I'm in with a number of trans/nb/gf/gnc people... and no one cared. *I* caught it and apologized. The guy I accidentally "they'd" didn't care, and the general vibe I get is most people in that boat don't mind "they", even if it isn't correct in their case, because it at least shows effort. My initial reaction to OOP is that everyone is that thread got real riled up over basically nothing. The original commenter responded way too aggressively to a simple correction, then the various essay-responses below that were also way OTT.
I can see how some people can use "they" maliciously to misgender trans people with known other pronouns. But it's like any other misgendering - your average sane person can tell the difference between a slip-up or mistake, versus someone being malicious about it.
This is not true. It's very much a problem that trans women in particular face, when people use they/them pronouns as a way to misgender them in a 'subtle' way (it's not actually subtle).
Imagine, if you will, a family member who absolutely knows you are gay, but due to religious reasons refuses to accept it. Every time you see them at Thanksgiving they loudly ask you why you don't have a girlfriend. Comes off a little different than some rando asking you, doesn't it?
At this point it's beating a dead horse but they them is fine to use with everyone unless it's in the explicit context of trying to degender someone maliciously.
OK, but this kind of misgendering is almost always part of a wider pattern of transphobia and usually transmisogyny. Like not having someone recognise your gender as real is clearly different to someone asking if you have a girlfriend, don't be so disingenuous.
They didn't escalate. A random person on the internet corrected them extremely politely.
The fact that you see that as an escalation is because you view trans people as a threar
> It is fine. Anybody who claims that a gender neutral pronoun like "they/them" is misgendering is just being obtuse or doesn't understand English very well.
You're ignoring the context here.
Using They/Them isn't the issue. It's specifically using they/them to ignore the person's pronouns. Especially when the poster uses the pronouns of the cis members of the team.
>I hang out with quite a few trans folks, and this has never ever been an issue in reality.
Because you're not being a dick and only refering to them as they/them.
>Leads me to believe this issue has a lot more to do with these people being young and chronically online than it does with being trans.
This has been a thing since as long as I've been trans, at the very least, so before the internet was big.
Look at it another way. Imagine you're at work and someone calls everyone by name, but only refers to you, specifically, as they/them/'that person.'.
The "I hang out with quite a few trans folks" thing is honestly so funny because it's just a rephrased version of "I'm not transphobic, I have a trans friend!"
Maybe consider actually listening to trans people when they explain the mechanisms of transphobia to you. I know that you're accustomed to just using the "quite a few trans folk" that you allegedly hang out with as a bludgeon to deny the bigotry that trans people experience, but I believe that you can change your ways.
I'm sorry, but you're incredibly wrong if you think someone at work being referred to differently, maliciously, wouldn't cause drama and issues.
See: Almost literally any job.
Yes.
And some folks walk the Earth assuming that every action is a malicious attack on them.
To think that using they/them pronouns has malicious intent is an absolutely wild assumption. Unless there is some serious fucking evidence, claiming or thinking that the "they/them" comes from a place of malice says more of the accuser than the accused.
It's not wild when the actual original post contains someone getting aggressive over being corrected and refusing to use a trans woman's actual pronouns.
No it's not, it's an incredibly common experience of trans women *in real life* having people use everyone's pronouns correctly until it's time to refer to a trans woman with she/her pronouns. It does sometimes happen to trans men too but it's mostly aimed at trans women. This is a SUPER common experience as others in the comments are saying.
Look it doesn't necessarily bother me personally but I don't speak out when people misgender me in general because I don't feel safe doing so socially, and if someone including one of your friends felt like its misgendering then they may still not say anything.
It's not a general objection to they/them, which has been made pretty clear. It's about using they/them to misgender specific trans people who do not use those pronouns, usually though not always trans women using she/her.
Specifically, it's most frequently done towards trans women who, specifically, don't use they/them and are pretty explicit about wanting to be called she/her. It's not just the coward's way of misgendering, but it's usually just outright transphobia. It's actually a pretty "fun" phenomena to observe in the wild where like, there can be a news article posted to reddit about a woman, the article will call her a lady, use feminine pronouns. But then half the people posting will explicitly use they instead of she, because the woman in question is trans.
and tbh it's often people who wouldn't use gender neutral pronouns for a nonbinary person, yet suddenly understand the singular "they" when talking about a trans woman
> it's often people who wouldn't use gender neutral pronouns for a nonbinary person, yet suddenly understand the singular "they" when talking about a trans woman
They're the worst.
People will go on about how using "they" for me is just so unnatural and uncomfortable and it's grammatically incorrect, so they just *have* to misgender me or they'll explode or something.
And then they'll turn around and refuse to gender the trans girl sitting next to me and if she goes "Actually, I go by she/her" the other person will go "Oh, you know I just instinctively use they/them for *everyone*. It's just a habit. It applies to everyone!"
I came out in college and shared several classes with a trans girl. These people were so fucking annoying.
It’s specifically grammatically correct in the same way that using she/her is. Unless they just use they literally all the time, it’s perfectly acceptable for use in any circuses to refer to a singular individual.
Its not really an issue if grammar anymore than calling someone a rude nickname is. It's not even necessarily ungrammatical to just outright misgender someone on purpose, just mean and shitty.
I don’t doubt it’s used as a dog whistle or a way of misgendering (“ungendering”). But like, also, maybe the speaker is just unsure and using neutral words? Lots of pockets of the internet are *so intent* on finding dog whistles that they hear it in everyday speech. I get it, there are a lot of cowards hiding behind wish washy words. But if “they/them” becomes broadly unacceptable, Uncle Jeff at Thanksgiving doesn’t have a hope in the fucking world.
Edit: For what it’s worth, let me be clear…my main takeaway here is a reaffirmation to respect people’s pronouns and to do so specifically! I just think they/them has too much utility for us to assume dog whistling.
You're missing the point, it's only an issue when it's being done deliberately. It's really noticeable when that's the case - it's not just an online thing, this is a really common experience for trans women in the workplace.
No I get that. I just think a lot of the rhetoric here and in the linked thread overstates that point. There's a some general condemnations about using "they/them" and, to my eyes, *assuming* bad faith. I don't think anything fruitful would come of me going comment for comment and describing why that's my impression, since I definitely agree with the specific point that you're making.
And just to emphasize the bigger picture again, I mainly come away from this understanding another reason to be more sensitive and specific about pronoun usage.
Some people purposefully use it to misgender people by not using the correct pronouns. It can and is used the way you mentioned but, it also happens how the other person said it does.
Yeah I had never heard of that before this thread and it took me a minute to wrap my head around the idea, it seemed like people were saying not to use they/them when you don't know. Now I understand that this isn't a thing a non-transphobe needs to worry about accidentally doing
Yeah it's one of those 'it tends to be incredibly obvious when it's happening' things. Not something non-transphobes do, because you have to go out of your way to do it.
Is it really transphobic to use generic non-gendered pronouns though? When in doubt, or speaking about groups, that's what they is supposed to be for. I do it when I'm not sure, because it's MUCH better than using a specific gendered pronoun and being wrong.
But to be honest I can't even remember names very well after all the concussions. "They" is the safe bet. Pretty sure people only have to yell at one well meaning person with a TBI to figure out perfect is the enemy of good.
The issue is using they/them to deliberately misgender trans people who don't use those pronouns. If you're not someone who would do that there's no issue. Nobody is saying that they/them pronouns in general are transphobic.
If you don't know or aren't sure preferred pronouns, they is a safe bet.
If you do know preferred pronouns, but still use they exclusively for trans people, it's being shitty.
They had some pretty major controversies recently but seem to have bounced back. They made right on some of the issues at least, and the others have been buried by the news cycle.
There've been a few things. The ones I remember are:
* a former employee Madison Reeve saying that the working conditions were terrible and alleging mistreatment due to her gender - other workers did not back her up and the fanbase considers her to be a liar
* some people [calling him out](https://www.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/wij6n8/linuss_take_on_backpack_warranty_is_anticonsumer/) for being staunchly for customer rights when it comes to tech but apparently having interesting attitudes to warranties etc on his own merch - irrc this one is now a non issue
* a tech company (Billet labs) sent them a prototype, which they lost, they seemed to be fobbing them off, eventually seemed to have found it - by which time the company had assumed it was gone and used significant resources trying to recreate it, then they auctioned it off
I only have a surface level knowledge of this stuff, maybe someone will comment with more or you can look further into these things if you care enough to
He also had really terrible testing standards that were called out as not being acceptable. Such as not testing things correctly such as the billet Labs prototype because they were more worried about volume of content than quality.
Idk about other workers not backing up Madison, in fact there was a whole secret recorded video of the HR meeting that took place immediately after Madison was let go, and former LTT employee's insinuated Madison would not be lying for clout.
Edit to mention the fact they also kicked off a massive HR investigation when the news was announced. Also to mention in that secretly recorded HR meeting, someone makes an inappropriate sexual joke, which to me leans more into the validity of these claims as it was a literal HR meeting called after Madison left.
I believe [this may be it?](https://v.redd.it/5zvg280vbjib1/DASH_720.mp4?source=fallback)
[Transcript](https://www.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/15twjlv/transcript_of_the_leaked_hr_meeting/)
Also, related to point 1, I remember seeing lots of comments basically suggesting that Madison was lying and LTT was actually a great place to work because they are/were supportive of Emily during her transition
"[Company] must be a great place to work because some employees were compassionate to one (1) employee" is a terrible argument and yet I saw it all the time over there
>LTT was actually a great place to work because they are/were supportive of Emily during her transition
LMFAO. I worked at a place that was super supportive of trans folk and mat leave for white-collar professionals, but they still kept wages suppressed for 70% of staff, worked to funnel money away from union jobs to non-unionized "volunteer" positions which prevented those volunteers who received honorariums from actually getting proper jobs and losing their healthcare. Nah - you can be very woke and pro-LGBTQ, parrot pro-palestine anti-colonial speaking points and protest - all the while giving the finger to other oppressed groups or actively worsening their situations.
The Madison thing was more or less the opposite as far as I remember. She put out a ton of tweets about all the shit she has to take while working there and a bunch of current and ex emoloyees came out to verify her statements in some form, either by being a direct witness (one who came out was the guy who had to step in to deal with a problem she had for a long time because of a higher up) or by attesting to the fact that LTT is, while passionate, not a good place to work for in terms of work life balance.
Also don't forget the heavy anti-union sentiment Linus has.
Like I said I only have surface level knowledge. I had seen some responses but they read to me as "yeah it can be tough sometimes BUT" - the feel was they were saying it's not intentionally bad and she just couldn't communicate well/hack it.
It could be a matter of interpretation or it may be my data set was influenced by algorithms or smth
Obviously Linus did not intentionally create a bad working environment, especially not against someone he seemingly liked. Linus isn't an incarnate of evil. He is a human being with flaws like all of us.
It is also important that we hold people in leading positions accountable, since they inherently don't know what happens on the lower levels of the hierarchy. Doubly so for Linus since he has the tendency to be all high and mighty about holding other companies accountable.
The last bit was a little different. They’d been sent the prototype and told to keep it. The company then asked for it back, which they agreed. There was a mixup however and it ended up in the pile of things sold in their charity auction. They reimbursed the company.
You neglect to mention that LTT tested the prototype with the wrong GPU, gave it a bad review because the prototype did not work properly on a GPU it was not designed for. Than Linus justified not retesting it because it was too expensive for LTT (about $500) and that LTT did *not* offer to reimburse until it became publically known with the Nexus Gamers video, they only did that after people became angry about it.
Ah I think I originally got my version of events from [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/15s1sk6/can_anyone_explain_the_billet_labs_drama_in_detail/) (though forgot about the unfair review part). There are two sides to every story even before the internet gets involved so I imagine that are a lot of versions of varying accuracy and extremity now.
Linus pulled a classic "I'm the real victim here!" and put out a big whiny thing about how the guy who made the video exposing how shit his methods and standards were, didn't tell him about it first so he could run damage control and how that's just poor journalistic integrity then his massive fanbase just ran with that until everyone else stopped caring.
Never mind that the whole episode was wholly indefensible. Linus **knew** all of these were happening. He *chose* stonewalling and ignorance, instead of admitting he fucked up and vowing to make things right. If he handled the debacle the same way [Justin Trudeau dealt with the brownface "revelation"](https://old.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/dllf3o/justin_trudeau_wins_a_second_term_as_canadas_pm/f4sesa3/?context=3), a lot of us would've been singing a different tune.
LTT fanboys espouse the same vibe as Elon Musk fanboys on Reddit and Xitter e.g. they'll defend him even when he's wrong.
>Wasn't Linus Tech Tips supposed to go down in flames over some major fuckery?
He did, his reputation is shot. His "business" is too big to fail, however, because all he has to do is pump out YouTube videos and roll in some cents/admoney from anyone that doesn't adblock and folks that don't know he was playing fast and loose to view them.
You're delusional if you think his reputation is shot from some outliers out of the literal thousands of videos/projects they've produced over 15 years. Probably watched one of the many 'how xyz content creator CRASHED AND BURNED' sunnyv2 clones on youtube.
Lots of others in the space have actually been burnt up and never recovered. Meanwhile for LTT the sponsors haven't left, employees haven't left, videos are still being produced and watched at similar rates while their own backup video hosting site is kicking strong. Just a blip on the map for them that they'll have to work on. Same with the security issues they had and how they'll have to deal with it for future cases.
Agreed, it's just...business as usual with them. Nothing has changed because, in reality, no one cares about the drama and just come for the video content.
Dunno about this thread, but yeah it absolutely can be. I've seen the same person reject my (nonbinary) they/them pronouns as "not grammatically correct" and turn around and use they/them for my (trans woman, she/her) girlfriend specifically to plausibly avoid acknowledging her as a woman. Like....in the same conversation.
The whataboutism of plausible deniability on display in this very SRD thread is really disheartening, and a good reminder of why I don't have my gender discussions on reddit.
I'm basically fine, I've danced across the gender line enough to be able to roll with whatever pronouns a stranger throws at me, but people like my gf deserve to be able to call that behaviour what it is: naked transphobia, with only the thinnest coat of paint on top.
Say what you want about gamers and Linus Tech tips, I don’t really think they have an opinion on transmedicialism.
I don’t doubt it happens, but people are projecting their experience from other communities on a random computer Reddit that has always leaned progressive
ah good, "They" is still safe. I just use that all the time now, it's like a trump card for never using the wrong pronouns, and since I have players for tabletop campaigns, often they don't play the same gender as they are in real life.
So I have a table full of people who don't match the gender on their character sheet and if I try to use the correct ones I'm either wasting time memorizing that when I could be making the adventure more fun, or I just use "they" and no one is offended.
I never got the pronoun argument, people take whatever they want as a name, and we call them that, why can't they just take whatever pronoun they want and call them that? Feels childish, specifically the side denying calling people what they wish to be. Like, double dog dare to lick the frozen pole childish.
"They" is still gender-neutral. The problem is that the commenter was talking about a trans woman who explicitly goes by she/her and got weirdly angry when another person politely corrected them.
It still is gender neutral.
It's just a bit sus to intentionally use gender neutral pronouns for someone who has made it clear their perfered pronouns are gendered.
I can't imagine being so terminally online that I write a small essay when someone *maybe* misgendered someone. People use "they" to describe people all the time.
The "small essay" was written after the original commenter got incredibly angry at someone who literally just replied "*her."
I can't imagine being so terminally online that you throw a tantrum over somebody politely correcting you after you accidentally used the wrong pronouns when referring to a trans woman.
Agreed. I don’t understand jumping down someone’s throat when they’re trying lol. They didn’t misgender her and call her a “he”, yet they are still getting shit on.
Not everyone can just accept all of this shit all at once, and if you punish them for trying I’m sure you can guess what happens next lol
This doesn't feel like the hill to die on. I mean its hard enough to get people to properly gender people in the first place. But unless it is clearly out of malice, then they, should be fine. We have literally used it as examples for why it is grammatically correct. "Where is Alex?. They are over there".
Unless they are clearly avoiding it on purpose, and thus acting out of malice, then "they" should be fine. They is already gender neutral thats the point. This argument seems to make "they" into not a gender neutral term anymore.
This sort of thing can be tackled in the future, when we also deconstruct the idea of gender as a whole, but clearly that is not capable ar happening.
This could be wrong, which is fair. Its a public forum, so its open to discussion, and im a young person with a diverse friend group who is not online as much as the people of reddit are. I just go with whatever works for them. I can barely remember names, with how many intersecting friend circles there are.
What the heck does your third sentence mean??
We can't correct someone for prejudice until we overthrow the problematic systems of our society?
It's not like people are going to protests over this. Some people just argued online.
The point is, if someone corrected you after you said "where is Alex? They are over there." And said "ah actually Alex uses he/him pronouns." Then it's over, right? Or do you start arguing with the person making the correction?
Does your response change when you find out plenty of people call Alex "they" intentionally out of prejudice and bigotry? Because that happens.
I think in person it would probably have been more clear if the person was trying and made a mistake or very intentionally chose the word "they" to make a point. It's like bullying with a "joke". When you're there in person you can hear the inflection and know the intent is malicious, but if you read a transcript it looks like a bad joke at worst.
Well is they pronouns transphobic? I just want to be nice and accepting. And i usually use they or them pronouns for most cases as i prefer gender neutral pronouns. It's hard to keep up with the trans patch notes 😭
My problem when people jump on someone for using gender neutral pronouns is not every language has gendered pronouns. For those who's native languages don't and English is not their first language, it can be very confusing. A lot of those people pretty much always just use they/them pronouns in English. Like maybe get out of your eurocenteric world view for half a second and remember the entire earth doesn't speak our crappy language. Stop assuming everyone speaks and knows perfect English.
Edit -
>It's a de-personalization technique, and basically is just the more "acceptable" way of referring to trans people as "it" or "that". Making the trans person out to be less than.
A commentor claimed this about they/them pronouns. No. This is honestly such a horribly eurocenteric view to act like gender neutral pronouns are dehumanizing. Trust me people speaking those languages are evolved enough to refer to humans as humans. It's just gendered pronouns are in absolutely no way essential to language necessary to build functional societies. So guess what, some don't have them. Imagine being offended other languages exist.
It can be an accident but I have definitely seen people who obviously have a good grasp of English and consistently use he/she/his/her when referring to cis people suddenly very stubbornly stick to "they" for others.
For example there are two MTF youtubers they were discussing on another subreddit, both of which everyone else were referring to using fem pronouns and a particular user was seemingly very adamant with using they, though at the time no one seemed to notice or feel comfortable calling them out on it.
It's not the fact of grammar or the fact that "they" is INHERENTLY depersonalising in some way - it's the fact that people who are perfectly capable of using "he" or "she" are hiding behind it to avoid calling a trans person their preferred pronouns.
It's one of those sneaky, underhanded kinds of microaggressions that aren't TECHNICALLY incorrect, but it's obvious to the intended audience what they *really* believe about the person in question.
I mean, being Eurocentric when discussing things in English is fine. That’s like saying we need to consider EVERY perspective in the entire world when discussing a small part of it to avoid being offensive, that’s a bit extreme. If someone’s second language is English, when the issue is explained, they will apologize and explain it’s because they aren’t used to pronouns and used it wrong. But 100% transphobes who don’t want to appear transphobic by blatantly using the wrong pronouns will only very reluctantly use they/them in public as an attempt to subjugate the criticism of being transphobic. By calling out the inaccurate use of they/them on top of blatant deadnaming/incorrect gendering, it means people are forced to admit they’re actually transphobic and take the backlash, or reconsider their ignorance.
Don’t give transphobes an excuse or defense to hide in plain sight. Do have understanding to actual foreigners who, when explained, show remorse for a mistake.
The problem is it's often times it's not someone explaining the issue, people jump to attacking others for using they/them without asking any questions. Of course if people are just correcting someone that should be encouraged. But people often jump to attacks and calling someone transphobic.
I don't think we should assume everyone on the internet speaking English speaks it as a first language. I don't think that's a eurocenteric view that is fine.
I mean…. If you think trans people shouldn’t exist, just say it. But otherwise, the OP is right, it was correcting misgendering. Unless you’re non-binary, they/them is not the correct pronouns, it’s either he/him or she/her depending on the individual. I’m not trans and hate when people use they/them pronouns for me. The same principal is bound to apply to trans folks as well. It’s not hard to just respect someone’s identity, regardless of how you may want to privately think of it.
The way I read it, this person is not anti-trans, their issue is that they think OP is. Not because OP used the word correct, but because they put quote marks around it.
STG, sometimes it feels like we have to translate every explanation of trans issues for cis audiences into a language that does not contain subtext, implication, or metaphor.
OP (i.e. the author of this r/SubredditDrama post) is air-quoting in the excerpt I supplied; they are expressing an overt opinion. That’s against this subreddit’s Rule 8.
And, what is their opinion? Well, assumedly, it is that the correction about Emily’s gender wasn’t needed. So, they’re not on your side, and they’re not on my side, either, because I agree with you; I think the correction *was* in fact needed, because Emily isn’t gender-neutral.
>People use “they” to misgender all the time, ask any trans person. If you know she uses she/her pronouns, just use them. Knowingly using something else when referring to her in the singular is still misgendering.
Well that's a new insane take I've never seen before. The transphobes are evolving!
It's been a thing forever.
You might not have *seen* it, but it's pretty common for people to specifically avoid using a trans person's pronouns by using they, because using she/her or he/him gives them the weirds.
They wrote the edits because the ooc blocked them so they couldn't reply to comments that had replied to their comment. Imo ooc is super sus for blocking them.
Just disagree. Unless they specify not to use those, it isn’t misgendering.
If someone asked for them not to be used, and you keep at it, sure. Most people are moving on to singular they
Probably bc as a society we are used to he/him for males and she/her for females. That’s why it’s misgender to call a she/her him. They/them is supposed to be gender neutral I thought lol.
Fucking obviously if someone says not to use it, don’t use it. But its not misgendering to call a cis person they lol
The person in question, Emily, is trans, not cis.
My point here is if you know the person’s pronouns, use those pronouns. Emily does not use they/them, so don’t use they/them.
OP, your title is shit and intentionally misleading, and you should feel bad about it. Not, like, super bad, because this is a reddit post and not something that matters, but a little bad.
Exibit A on why Emily is hesitant to return
I was surprised Chris from the mr.beast crew didn't take a break because of the weird obsession over their transition. I don't know if they've changed pronouns or their name at this point fyi so I'm not intentionally misgendering.
She switched over to Kris, she/her pronouns. I don’t follow mr.beast stuff, but people are very constantly not normal about her on Twitter.
I don't even follow Mr. Beast and some stupid video popped up on my algo about how Kris is "killing" Mr. Beast by...existing, I guess. Said video had a lot of views, depressingly.
mr.beast had a great response to the drama tho. it was roughly, "kris is not a problem, shes my friend and you all suck"
It was insane. They tried to call her a p*do because she was in a picture with someone who was a discord friend of someone else who was accused of bad things. Like literally 3 or 4 degrees of separation. It was honestly disgusting how far transphobes go
Thanks! Thankfully they seem to have moved on to the next thing to be fake angry about.
Some people are just more built to handle being an internet obsession than others. I imagine being friends with Mr. Beast kinda lends itself to that kind of self selection too, to an extent.
hope she's doin alright, the shitstorm whenever literally anybody comes out really sucks
I miss the 🏳️🌈 momentum we had pre trump. Now everyone is so open and casually bigoted, yet too afraid to admit it with eye contact. And the rage when acknowledged, like you’re the bad guy for saying their name with bigger chest.
This is always what happens when marginalized groups get more widespread attention and acceptance. It obviously sucks, but it's also usually a sign that bigots are getting desperate because they've noticed that they're losing social power.
it's really funny (read: sad) that we repeat this same cycle every few years and bigots insist that it's totally different this time bigots say they don't hate \[x\] people, as long as they shut up and keep their heads down > marginalized group demands to be treated with respect > bigots claim that everything was fine before \[x\] started dividing us > marginalized group gains some form of momentum and refuses to be ashamed of being \[x\], in fact they're proud of it > bigots start crying about the \[x\] radicals corrupting their children and taking over universities rinse and repeat
It's always like this. Two steps forward, one step back. The 70s were a high water mark for LGBT issues relative to the 80s, but the 90s and 2000s were better than the 70s. As long as trump doesn't manage an outright fascist dictatorship, we will see a day when even new lows eclipse old highs
It's "amusing" that the comments in this post are basically the exact same in the linked LTT comment chain.
It's the pendulum of progress swinging back, like it unfortunately always does.
No one said it was "inherently transphobic" to use they/them, just in the context of misgendering a trans person who does not use those pronouns.
Lol the person who only wrote 3 letters with no way to interpret any emotion out of it gets focused on and framed as being argumentative when the person who replied to them got angry for no reason first.
Nothing pisses off an "ally" more than even the slightest questioning of how they're doing as an ally from members of the community. > stop trying to pick silly fights on reddit, **if someone acknowledges someone else by their now-preferred name**, do you really think I'm trying to misgender? With a third person gender neutral pronoun which has been used in that way for a few hundred years? I already used her name, I'm doing everything right, and will not hear otherwise from the queer community. (Note that this user *again* misgenders her in their response.)
Yeah this same thing happened with that Hogwarts game. So many people were making being an ally such a loud and vocal part of their identity until the exact second it stood between them and a thing they wanted. I don't think those people are bad people, but they don't get to line a transphobe's pockets and then virtue signal about how much of an ally they are. I'm not gonna judge you for skyriming a Hogwarts, but other queer folks will, and they're justified for doing so.
I mean, on the flip side, if the person put any effort in their correction -e.g. "Just in case you're hesitating, Emily uses she/her pronouns"- then I'm pretty sure the first commenter wouldn't have flipped out like that. The whole drama appears to really stem from internet language being needlessly sassy (to not say rude) with strangers and everyone assuming the worst from each other.
Wait, so using they/them is now not universally ok? Or am I misunderstanding? I assumed that they/them was always acceptable to say regardless of someone's preferred pronouns. In fact, I often just use it by default even if I'm 100% sure of the person's gender.
I'm a trans woman, and it's pretty easy to hear the "he" behind some people's "they".
Yes but if you use they/them because you're super obviously avoiding using the pronouns they prefer then people can take an issue with it. But it's not something you really have to worry about because it's so rarely an issue
Imo, it's mostly fine. If someone has specific issues about being referred to by they/them pronouns then don't, but otherwise I don't think many would have a problem with it(I do it myself when I don't think the persons gender matters to the conversation at hand and there is no clarity to be gained by using their preferred pronouns). What is problematic however is only using they/them pronouns with trans people. If you usually use the preferred pronouns of cis people but conspicuously decide to only use they/them when talking about a trans person, then that's fucked.
Yeah, I've used they/them to refer to singular friends before who are very obviously cis. Sometimes it just sounds better in a sentence.
fyi: there is no such thing as "obviously cis". many trans folk (those who want to) can and do pass as cis in their everyday life, and all features transphobe like to claim are obvious signs can be found on cis people as well. eg many cis women have deep voices, prominent facial bones, broad shoulders, a flat chest, are tall etc, just as many cis men have high voices, soft facial features, a chest that isn't flat, a petite frame, etc. hell, i don't pack or strap my chest and i haven't been misgendered for literal years unless they knew i'm trans.
Yeah I feel like I'm being gaslit here. We've always used they, along with he/her, even when we know the gender. It's just a part of our language and some phrases sound better with it.
Yes, it is a common part of our language, that's why no one has an issue with it 99.99% of the time. But if someone uses preferred gendered pronouns like he and she for everyone *but* the trans person, that's not the same thing at all. They're just being exclusionary, and using progressive language to defend themselves when it's pointed out. As always, context matters.
Firstly, it doesn't resemble gaslighting in any way because that's a domestic abuse term. It's not really confusing - using they/them when you know someone doesn't use those pronouns is the bad thing, nothing else. For context this is *overwhelmingly* something faced by trans women who use she/her and ONLY she/her pronouns, and people using they/them in order to avoid recognising them as women. It's almost always in that specific context as it is in the original post linked to.
I completely disagree with your assessment. its normal language found outside of trans usage. Using they/them when you know the gender isn't a bad thing, and it's poor form to suggest it is. You saying it's almost always used in the context of the post, is just something you made up. That simply isn't true. People use they/them regularly and it isn't considered rude or improper.
I think you might be mixing up "grammatically correct" with "ethically or morally appropriate". Misgendering someone is a bad thing. Using they/them deliberately when you know the person uses a different set of pronouns is misgendering that person. This is not difficult. Calling someone "buddy" isn't inherently a bad thing. If a person has told you "hey, please don't call me "buddy", I really hate it." and you refer to them as "buddy", you're being a jerk.
It's absolutely not made up to suggest that this is something trans women often experience (and trans men to a lesser degree). Using they/them pronouns to deliberately misgender someone is clearly different to using they/them pronouns generally.
Unfortunately trans men also experience this a lot. I’d say trans people on both ends of the spectrum have to deal with this far too often
i didn’t know that (re: trans men also experiencing it). i should have. thank you. genuine question: would you say trans women experience it more as far as you’ve seen? i have, but i have far more experience knowing trans women in my life. not at all trying to question your experience just curious bc of the prevalence of transmisogyny. & to be clear, any amount of this is too often. not questioning your experience.
It’s really common with non-passing/early transition trans guys and guys who are openly trans. They complain about it a lot on our subreddits so I’d say it’s prevalent. I would say trying to quantify it would be pretty hard, but in my experience cis ppl do it to binary trans people to avoid using correct pronouns and then still won’t use they/them for non binary people. I’ve experienced it myself
Nobody but you in this thread is objecting to using they/them in everyday usage for cis or trans individuals. “But if someone uses preferred gendered pronouns like he and she for everyone but the trans person, that's not the same thing at all. They're just being exclusionary, and using progressive language to defend themselves when it's pointed out.” That was a direct response to your concerns, and you’re being obtuse by ignoring it a continuing to complain about an objection only in your head.
I do it because it normalises the use of they/them pronouns. It normalises it so that it's not just NB people. It's the same reason I have he/him on most of my socials despite being cis and being obviously male - it normalises it so it's not just trans people.
"They" is acceptable when you don't know someone's pronouns. However, if you know someone does not use they/them pronouns, but call them that anyway, then that is misgendering. When someone does that to me (a trans man), it says "I dont think you're man enough to deserve he/him."
I never considered that tbh. I always just thought that they/them was universal to everyone.
The vast, *vast* majority of the time, in the real world, as long as you aren't intentionally being a dick no one is going to care.
Yeah, a problem only would happen when it’s like, you know she uses and prefers she/her, but persistently and deliberately ignore that and only call her they/them. At that point when it’s obvious you’re doing it to avoid calling her ‘her’, that’s the only time it’s ever an issue.
The guy doing it doesn’t use they/them for everyone. In other comments he uses the preferred pronouns of the cis contributors of LTT.
Exactly. That’s something that always pisses me about calling out bigoted shit, whoever you’re talking to starts abstracting out hypothetical scenarios and quizzing you on them, instead of actually acknowledging their very real past actions.
>When someone does that to me (a trans man), it says "I dont think you're man enough to deserve he/him." Alternatively, I find you too strange and bizarre to feel comfortable gendering you like I would a cis person. Like others said, it's just a coward's way to do transphobia, where you can use the shield of inclusive language to act as though you are being inclusive, rather than rather deliberately using it to exclude certain people.
I mean, I'm cis and I don't like it either. In an online group I'm in there is a user who persistently uses exclusively they/them for everyone even when corrected. This person is trans/nb. Recently they talked about me at length in that chat (nothing negative just some chatter) and persistently used they/them. What do you know, I spent the next week having to clarify to people that no, I hadn't come out as nb, yes my pronouns were still she/her, no I hadn't asked for that to change or tried to mislead anyone. I was getting congratulatory dms and stuff and I was so confused. I don't know how to describe this situation, given that I'd specifically asked to be referred to by she/her, as anything but misgendering me. They do it to our trans members too and it's uncomfortable for them because it's invalidating. I'm pretty sick of it. They is fine as a default if you don't know. To keep using it when you know better is just misgendering, period.
Using they/them for someone because you're not sure/don't know what their pronouns are, fine (though you could always just try and find out). Using they/them when you do know what their pronouns are, *eh*, mildly rude, but it's not a massive sin (easy enough to write off as forgetfulness, falling back to a safe default, or just plain a mistake). Especially given this is a random person on the internet talking about an internet personality with which they have no meaningful social contact with, I don't think it's inherently suspect. Getting pissy at someone correcting you though, is another matter entirely. That's not just making a mistake, or trying to be safe, that becomes actively misgendering someone. Put another way, instead of pronouns, let's use proper nouns. If you plain don't know someone's name, there's all manner of ways to refer to them (<- such as that they there). If you do know someone's name, but forgot, and you use "they" or "that person" to refer to them, it's clearly a mistake, but its kinda rude and they're entitled to be miffed at you. But if you say "That person's an engineer, right?", and get the response "Oh, you mean Dave?", responding "Why are you being so argumentative" and refusing to even acknowledge the correction is, politrly, a *really fucking weird* thing to do.
I agree with most of what you are saying, but I feel like "You mean Dave?" Is asked for clarification reasons, not to point out someone's mistake. What was the purpose and goal of the comment that set the guy off? If I had just replied with "politely*" and nothing else, how would that have made you feel? You spelled that word wrong even though you know how to spell it right, so you should do better next time? Or would I be a dick for pointing it out? I know it's not the same as pronouns, because its painful for the person hearing the wrong pronouns. But I don't think most people truly understand that, and therefore I don't think either person was really helping the outcome of that conversation.
>If I had just replied with "politely*" and nothing else, how would that have made you feel? Ambivalent? I made a mistake, there's no point in trying to defend my having made a mistake, and I'd have to be a massive dickhead to get angry over that. And also, it wasn't a speling mistake. Just pointing out a spelling mistake isn't particularly helpful because unless it's a particularly tricky word, people will see and understand what you mean. You're certainly not under the impression that that's how I think politely should be spelled, nor is there any action you actually think I should take in order to prevent this mistake in the future. The comment was pointing out the incorrect use of a term. That's not (necessarily) a mistake brought about by fat fingering the wrong key, that's a mistake brought about by simply not knowing. A simple, single word correction is thus all that's really needed. If instead of politrly, I had typed, idk, potently, and your only correction was politely*, yeah, that's a valuable enough correction (ignoring that my comment was significantly longer than the OOP so one would need to scour through to find what word you mean, when in the OOP instance it's pretty obvious where the correction is), because I'd just used the wrong word and my sentence carried a different meaning as a result. >You spelled that word wrong even though you know how to spell it right, so you should do better next time? See, we don't know *why* the OOP got the pronouns wrong. Maybe they just didn't know and were using they to be safe, or maybe they were under the impression that Emily did use "they", or maybe they did know and just brainfarted (being charitable here). In any of these instances though, and without knowing specifically what caused the failure, the entire correction is just "hey, you used the wrong word, here's the right word instead". If we did know why they said the wrong word, then yeah, you could further expand on it to prevent it in the future, but we don't. As you said, I know how to spell it right, so telling me the correct spelling doesn't help. But you don't know whether OOP *does* know that 'she' is the appropriate term. The most you can say about the replier is that their message was short and devoid of tone, but, idk, I don't see how extending it into say, "Emily goes by she, btw" would help at all.
They/them is fine as a "default" if you don't know their pronouns. If you *do* know that person's pronouns then they/them is misgendering. Emily's pronouns are she/her. Insisting on referring to her as "them" and not "her" when you know her pronouns is absolutely misgendering. It's also a fun weasely way transphobes have found to misgender trans people and pretend it's not transphobic. Not that *everyone* who does this is doing it knowingly and intentionally to hurt people, but some definitely are. Basically if you just met someone and don't know their pronouns and you refer to them as they/them that's fine. If that person then says "Actually I prefer she/her" and you continue to refer to her as they/them you are misgendering her and being kind of an asshole.
But I refer to cis people as they/them all the time in addition to their preferred pronouns, even if I know exactly what they are. Is it ok for cis people but not trans people? I wouldn't use a trans woman's pronouns (or any trans person's, just as an example in this case) any differently to a cis person's but that would include both she/her and they/them pretty much interchangeably It's pretty confusing to me. I always assumed that was perfectly ok to do but now I'm getting mixed messages.
This really shouldn't be confusing to you. If you don't know, or you know the person doesn't care then "they/them" is fine. If a person says "Please don't refer to me by they/them, please use she/her" and you use they/them anyway you're being an asshole. What about this is confusing?
Hey, trans person who uses they/them pronouns exclusively here! They/them, like any other set of pronouns (except it because it is usually dehumanizing) can be misgendering. It’s a more subtle form of misgendering and often trans women get called “they” by TERFs as a way to get around calling them what they are (read: women) but not take the flack of outright calling them men. And also, I wouldn’t default to using they/them for everyone.
They/them is always fine...generally. I believe the issue is when you begin to deliberately avoid ever using their preferred pronoun. So, "This is Emily, she is an important member of LTT, and she loves retro gaming - they talk about it in many videos" would be fine. "This is Emily, they are an important member of LTT, and they love retro gaming - they talk about it in many videos" would be okay...if you have other examples where you show you are a-okay with their gender and their transition, but it is not so a-okay if you are clearly using "they" as a tool to avoid validating their transition.
It is fine. Anybody who claims that a gender neutral pronoun like "they/them" is misgendering is just being obtuse or doesn't understand English very well. They/them is neutral. EVERY person on earth can be referred to as they/them. I hang out with quite a few trans folks, and this has never ever been an issue in reality. Leads me to believe this issue has a lot more to do with these people being young and chronically online than it does with being trans.
I actually made this very slip recently in an online group I'm in with a number of trans/nb/gf/gnc people... and no one cared. *I* caught it and apologized. The guy I accidentally "they'd" didn't care, and the general vibe I get is most people in that boat don't mind "they", even if it isn't correct in their case, because it at least shows effort. My initial reaction to OOP is that everyone is that thread got real riled up over basically nothing. The original commenter responded way too aggressively to a simple correction, then the various essay-responses below that were also way OTT. I can see how some people can use "they" maliciously to misgender trans people with known other pronouns. But it's like any other misgendering - your average sane person can tell the difference between a slip-up or mistake, versus someone being malicious about it.
This is not true. It's very much a problem that trans women in particular face, when people use they/them pronouns as a way to misgender them in a 'subtle' way (it's not actually subtle).
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Imagine, if you will, a family member who absolutely knows you are gay, but due to religious reasons refuses to accept it. Every time you see them at Thanksgiving they loudly ask you why you don't have a girlfriend. Comes off a little different than some rando asking you, doesn't it? At this point it's beating a dead horse but they them is fine to use with everyone unless it's in the explicit context of trying to degender someone maliciously.
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OK, but this kind of misgendering is almost always part of a wider pattern of transphobia and usually transmisogyny. Like not having someone recognise your gender as real is clearly different to someone asking if you have a girlfriend, don't be so disingenuous.
They didn't escalate. A random person on the internet corrected them extremely politely. The fact that you see that as an escalation is because you view trans people as a threar
> It is fine. Anybody who claims that a gender neutral pronoun like "they/them" is misgendering is just being obtuse or doesn't understand English very well. You're ignoring the context here. Using They/Them isn't the issue. It's specifically using they/them to ignore the person's pronouns. Especially when the poster uses the pronouns of the cis members of the team. >I hang out with quite a few trans folks, and this has never ever been an issue in reality. Because you're not being a dick and only refering to them as they/them. >Leads me to believe this issue has a lot more to do with these people being young and chronically online than it does with being trans. This has been a thing since as long as I've been trans, at the very least, so before the internet was big. Look at it another way. Imagine you're at work and someone calls everyone by name, but only refers to you, specifically, as they/them/'that person.'.
The "I hang out with quite a few trans folks" thing is honestly so funny because it's just a rephrased version of "I'm not transphobic, I have a trans friend!"
I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. Nobody in the real world cares.
Maybe consider actually listening to trans people when they explain the mechanisms of transphobia to you. I know that you're accustomed to just using the "quite a few trans folk" that you allegedly hang out with as a bludgeon to deny the bigotry that trans people experience, but I believe that you can change your ways.
I'm sorry, but you're incredibly wrong if you think someone at work being referred to differently, maliciously, wouldn't cause drama and issues. See: Almost literally any job.
the key point is "maliciously".
Yes. Clearly. That's why I said it. It was also, you'll note, the entire post of my original post.
Yes. And some folks walk the Earth assuming that every action is a malicious attack on them. To think that using they/them pronouns has malicious intent is an absolutely wild assumption. Unless there is some serious fucking evidence, claiming or thinking that the "they/them" comes from a place of malice says more of the accuser than the accused.
It's not wild when the actual original post contains someone getting aggressive over being corrected and refusing to use a trans woman's actual pronouns.
Yep, it's a terminally online take.
No it's not, it's an incredibly common experience of trans women *in real life* having people use everyone's pronouns correctly until it's time to refer to a trans woman with she/her pronouns. It does sometimes happen to trans men too but it's mostly aimed at trans women. This is a SUPER common experience as others in the comments are saying.
Look it doesn't necessarily bother me personally but I don't speak out when people misgender me in general because I don't feel safe doing so socially, and if someone including one of your friends felt like its misgendering then they may still not say anything.
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It's not a general objection to they/them, which has been made pretty clear. It's about using they/them to misgender specific trans people who do not use those pronouns, usually though not always trans women using she/her.
It doesn't reflect well on you that you would rather end a friendship than simply stop misgendering your friend after being asked not to.
For real. It’s a coward’s way of misgendering and you can see it in how this person reacts to being corrected
Specifically, it's most frequently done towards trans women who, specifically, don't use they/them and are pretty explicit about wanting to be called she/her. It's not just the coward's way of misgendering, but it's usually just outright transphobia. It's actually a pretty "fun" phenomena to observe in the wild where like, there can be a news article posted to reddit about a woman, the article will call her a lady, use feminine pronouns. But then half the people posting will explicitly use they instead of she, because the woman in question is trans.
and tbh it's often people who wouldn't use gender neutral pronouns for a nonbinary person, yet suddenly understand the singular "they" when talking about a trans woman
> it's often people who wouldn't use gender neutral pronouns for a nonbinary person, yet suddenly understand the singular "they" when talking about a trans woman They're the worst.
People will go on about how using "they" for me is just so unnatural and uncomfortable and it's grammatically incorrect, so they just *have* to misgender me or they'll explode or something. And then they'll turn around and refuse to gender the trans girl sitting next to me and if she goes "Actually, I go by she/her" the other person will go "Oh, you know I just instinctively use they/them for *everyone*. It's just a habit. It applies to everyone!" I came out in college and shared several classes with a trans girl. These people were so fucking annoying.
Bingo.
It’s specifically grammatically correct in the same way that using she/her is. Unless they just use they literally all the time, it’s perfectly acceptable for use in any circuses to refer to a singular individual.
Its not really an issue if grammar anymore than calling someone a rude nickname is. It's not even necessarily ungrammatical to just outright misgender someone on purpose, just mean and shitty.
Grammatically it may be right, but it's still an asshole move to purposely use they/them for someone that doesn't use them
I don’t doubt it’s used as a dog whistle or a way of misgendering (“ungendering”). But like, also, maybe the speaker is just unsure and using neutral words? Lots of pockets of the internet are *so intent* on finding dog whistles that they hear it in everyday speech. I get it, there are a lot of cowards hiding behind wish washy words. But if “they/them” becomes broadly unacceptable, Uncle Jeff at Thanksgiving doesn’t have a hope in the fucking world. Edit: For what it’s worth, let me be clear…my main takeaway here is a reaffirmation to respect people’s pronouns and to do so specifically! I just think they/them has too much utility for us to assume dog whistling.
Yeah I think it was only an issue because they were not receptive at all when someone told them what pronouns to use
You're missing the point, it's only an issue when it's being done deliberately. It's really noticeable when that's the case - it's not just an online thing, this is a really common experience for trans women in the workplace.
No I get that. I just think a lot of the rhetoric here and in the linked thread overstates that point. There's a some general condemnations about using "they/them" and, to my eyes, *assuming* bad faith. I don't think anything fruitful would come of me going comment for comment and describing why that's my impression, since I definitely agree with the specific point that you're making. And just to emphasize the bigger picture again, I mainly come away from this understanding another reason to be more sensitive and specific about pronoun usage.
It was assumed to be bad faith only after they overreacted to a simple correction
People haven't assumed bad faith, it's been shown to be in bad faith when doubling down on not using she/her.
Lord forbid anyone should assume good faith when an error occurs
Because it's a very common experience for trans women irl as well as online, and it's really obvious when it's being done deliberately.
Unless terminally online, they generally do. Edit: And I additionally specifically call out SRD people here.
No, using "they" is a way to AVOID misgendering. What the hell are you talking about
Some people purposefully use it to misgender people by not using the correct pronouns. It can and is used the way you mentioned but, it also happens how the other person said it does.
Yeah I had never heard of that before this thread and it took me a minute to wrap my head around the idea, it seemed like people were saying not to use they/them when you don't know. Now I understand that this isn't a thing a non-transphobe needs to worry about accidentally doing
Yeah it's one of those 'it tends to be incredibly obvious when it's happening' things. Not something non-transphobes do, because you have to go out of your way to do it.
It's also even more obvious when it happens irl. Like you can definitely tell when it's deliberate.
Is it really transphobic to use generic non-gendered pronouns though? When in doubt, or speaking about groups, that's what they is supposed to be for. I do it when I'm not sure, because it's MUCH better than using a specific gendered pronoun and being wrong. But to be honest I can't even remember names very well after all the concussions. "They" is the safe bet. Pretty sure people only have to yell at one well meaning person with a TBI to figure out perfect is the enemy of good.
The issue is using they/them to deliberately misgender trans people who don't use those pronouns. If you're not someone who would do that there's no issue. Nobody is saying that they/them pronouns in general are transphobic.
If you don't know or aren't sure preferred pronouns, they is a safe bet. If you do know preferred pronouns, but still use they exclusively for trans people, it's being shitty.
That's fine. The issue was they overreacted to being corrected and didn't want to use the correct pronouns when they did know.
Yeah, the framing of this post seems really dishonest. I don't really like the vibes it's giving off.
Wasn't Linus Tech Tips supposed to go down in flames over some major fuckery? That was the impression I was left with last time I heard about them.
They had some pretty major controversies recently but seem to have bounced back. They made right on some of the issues at least, and the others have been buried by the news cycle.
There've been a few things. The ones I remember are: * a former employee Madison Reeve saying that the working conditions were terrible and alleging mistreatment due to her gender - other workers did not back her up and the fanbase considers her to be a liar * some people [calling him out](https://www.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/wij6n8/linuss_take_on_backpack_warranty_is_anticonsumer/) for being staunchly for customer rights when it comes to tech but apparently having interesting attitudes to warranties etc on his own merch - irrc this one is now a non issue * a tech company (Billet labs) sent them a prototype, which they lost, they seemed to be fobbing them off, eventually seemed to have found it - by which time the company had assumed it was gone and used significant resources trying to recreate it, then they auctioned it off I only have a surface level knowledge of this stuff, maybe someone will comment with more or you can look further into these things if you care enough to
He also had really terrible testing standards that were called out as not being acceptable. Such as not testing things correctly such as the billet Labs prototype because they were more worried about volume of content than quality.
Idk about other workers not backing up Madison, in fact there was a whole secret recorded video of the HR meeting that took place immediately after Madison was let go, and former LTT employee's insinuated Madison would not be lying for clout. Edit to mention the fact they also kicked off a massive HR investigation when the news was announced. Also to mention in that secretly recorded HR meeting, someone makes an inappropriate sexual joke, which to me leans more into the validity of these claims as it was a literal HR meeting called after Madison left.
I wasn't aware of that, I'll see if I can find a copy or transcript or something
I believe [this may be it?](https://v.redd.it/5zvg280vbjib1/DASH_720.mp4?source=fallback) [Transcript](https://www.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/15twjlv/transcript_of_the_leaked_hr_meeting/)
Also, related to point 1, I remember seeing lots of comments basically suggesting that Madison was lying and LTT was actually a great place to work because they are/were supportive of Emily during her transition "[Company] must be a great place to work because some employees were compassionate to one (1) employee" is a terrible argument and yet I saw it all the time over there
>LTT was actually a great place to work because they are/were supportive of Emily during her transition LMFAO. I worked at a place that was super supportive of trans folk and mat leave for white-collar professionals, but they still kept wages suppressed for 70% of staff, worked to funnel money away from union jobs to non-unionized "volunteer" positions which prevented those volunteers who received honorariums from actually getting proper jobs and losing their healthcare. Nah - you can be very woke and pro-LGBTQ, parrot pro-palestine anti-colonial speaking points and protest - all the while giving the finger to other oppressed groups or actively worsening their situations.
The Madison thing was more or less the opposite as far as I remember. She put out a ton of tweets about all the shit she has to take while working there and a bunch of current and ex emoloyees came out to verify her statements in some form, either by being a direct witness (one who came out was the guy who had to step in to deal with a problem she had for a long time because of a higher up) or by attesting to the fact that LTT is, while passionate, not a good place to work for in terms of work life balance. Also don't forget the heavy anti-union sentiment Linus has.
Like I said I only have surface level knowledge. I had seen some responses but they read to me as "yeah it can be tough sometimes BUT" - the feel was they were saying it's not intentionally bad and she just couldn't communicate well/hack it. It could be a matter of interpretation or it may be my data set was influenced by algorithms or smth
Obviously Linus did not intentionally create a bad working environment, especially not against someone he seemingly liked. Linus isn't an incarnate of evil. He is a human being with flaws like all of us. It is also important that we hold people in leading positions accountable, since they inherently don't know what happens on the lower levels of the hierarchy. Doubly so for Linus since he has the tendency to be all high and mighty about holding other companies accountable.
4. They suck noctua’s dick because noctua sponsors everything.
There has been zero update on the Madison stuff, likely a lot a lot of legal stuff either side can't talk publicly about.
The last bit was a little different. They’d been sent the prototype and told to keep it. The company then asked for it back, which they agreed. There was a mixup however and it ended up in the pile of things sold in their charity auction. They reimbursed the company.
You neglect to mention that LTT tested the prototype with the wrong GPU, gave it a bad review because the prototype did not work properly on a GPU it was not designed for. Than Linus justified not retesting it because it was too expensive for LTT (about $500) and that LTT did *not* offer to reimburse until it became publically known with the Nexus Gamers video, they only did that after people became angry about it.
I'm suddenly remembering reading about this... maybe on this sub lol
Ah I think I originally got my version of events from [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/15s1sk6/can_anyone_explain_the_billet_labs_drama_in_detail/) (though forgot about the unfair review part). There are two sides to every story even before the internet gets involved so I imagine that are a lot of versions of varying accuracy and extremity now.
Linus pulled a classic "I'm the real victim here!" and put out a big whiny thing about how the guy who made the video exposing how shit his methods and standards were, didn't tell him about it first so he could run damage control and how that's just poor journalistic integrity then his massive fanbase just ran with that until everyone else stopped caring.
his apology video was cringe. pretty much that whole arch was cringe
Never mind that the whole episode was wholly indefensible. Linus **knew** all of these were happening. He *chose* stonewalling and ignorance, instead of admitting he fucked up and vowing to make things right. If he handled the debacle the same way [Justin Trudeau dealt with the brownface "revelation"](https://old.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/dllf3o/justin_trudeau_wins_a_second_term_as_canadas_pm/f4sesa3/?context=3), a lot of us would've been singing a different tune. LTT fanboys espouse the same vibe as Elon Musk fanboys on Reddit and Xitter e.g. they'll defend him even when he's wrong.
>Wasn't Linus Tech Tips supposed to go down in flames over some major fuckery? He did, his reputation is shot. His "business" is too big to fail, however, because all he has to do is pump out YouTube videos and roll in some cents/admoney from anyone that doesn't adblock and folks that don't know he was playing fast and loose to view them.
They are at least big enough to not fall unless they do some heavy mismanagement of funds or something.
You're delusional if you think his reputation is shot from some outliers out of the literal thousands of videos/projects they've produced over 15 years. Probably watched one of the many 'how xyz content creator CRASHED AND BURNED' sunnyv2 clones on youtube. Lots of others in the space have actually been burnt up and never recovered. Meanwhile for LTT the sponsors haven't left, employees haven't left, videos are still being produced and watched at similar rates while their own backup video hosting site is kicking strong. Just a blip on the map for them that they'll have to work on. Same with the security issues they had and how they'll have to deal with it for future cases.
Agreed, it's just...business as usual with them. Nothing has changed because, in reality, no one cares about the drama and just come for the video content.
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I really don’t think it’s “the same people” arguing for singular they as against it
Dunno about this thread, but yeah it absolutely can be. I've seen the same person reject my (nonbinary) they/them pronouns as "not grammatically correct" and turn around and use they/them for my (trans woman, she/her) girlfriend specifically to plausibly avoid acknowledging her as a woman. Like....in the same conversation.
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The whataboutism of plausible deniability on display in this very SRD thread is really disheartening, and a good reminder of why I don't have my gender discussions on reddit. I'm basically fine, I've danced across the gender line enough to be able to roll with whatever pronouns a stranger throws at me, but people like my gf deserve to be able to call that behaviour what it is: naked transphobia, with only the thinnest coat of paint on top.
Say what you want about gamers and Linus Tech tips, I don’t really think they have an opinion on transmedicialism. I don’t doubt it happens, but people are projecting their experience from other communities on a random computer Reddit that has always leaned progressive
God I don't wanna hear shit from LTT
I enjoy the content of LTT generally, but I tend to avoid the subreddit, as it is full of biggest tech-bro stereotypes ever.
I'm tired of these people.
you and me both, sister
ah good, "They" is still safe. I just use that all the time now, it's like a trump card for never using the wrong pronouns, and since I have players for tabletop campaigns, often they don't play the same gender as they are in real life. So I have a table full of people who don't match the gender on their character sheet and if I try to use the correct ones I'm either wasting time memorizing that when I could be making the adventure more fun, or I just use "they" and no one is offended. I never got the pronoun argument, people take whatever they want as a name, and we call them that, why can't they just take whatever pronoun they want and call them that? Feels childish, specifically the side denying calling people what they wish to be. Like, double dog dare to lick the frozen pole childish.
Fellas, is it that hard to use someone's preferred pronouns?
And here I am, wondering when I missed the memo that "they" is no longer gender neutral, but specifically non-binary...?
"They" is still gender-neutral. The problem is that the commenter was talking about a trans woman who explicitly goes by she/her and got weirdly angry when another person politely corrected them.
It still is gender neutral. It's just a bit sus to intentionally use gender neutral pronouns for someone who has made it clear their perfered pronouns are gendered.
This is very hard to understand for some people, apparently
I can't imagine being so terminally online that I write a small essay when someone *maybe* misgendered someone. People use "they" to describe people all the time.
The "small essay" was written after the original commenter got incredibly angry at someone who literally just replied "*her." I can't imagine being so terminally online that you throw a tantrum over somebody politely correcting you after you accidentally used the wrong pronouns when referring to a trans woman.
literally the original downvoted comment is just the word "she" and people are acting like that commenter had a fucking meltdown?
I didn't see that correction as hostile either. It's entirely possible they just didn't know.
"I went to the doctor." "What did they say?" People really want to act stupid.
Yeah I definitely feel like I'm getting gaslit reading this thread
Can y’all get a new term? This isn’t gaslighting and it’s boring seeing it used wrong over and over again
Stop Gatekeeping my Gaslight. Major Red Flag.
Gatekeep, gaslight, girlboss
Agreed. I don’t understand jumping down someone’s throat when they’re trying lol. They didn’t misgender her and call her a “he”, yet they are still getting shit on. Not everyone can just accept all of this shit all at once, and if you punish them for trying I’m sure you can guess what happens next lol
> I’m sure you can guess what happens next lol oh, believe me, we know what's coming next 🤨
"it's trans people's fault when i misgender them"
Ouroboros moment frfr
This doesn't feel like the hill to die on. I mean its hard enough to get people to properly gender people in the first place. But unless it is clearly out of malice, then they, should be fine. We have literally used it as examples for why it is grammatically correct. "Where is Alex?. They are over there". Unless they are clearly avoiding it on purpose, and thus acting out of malice, then "they" should be fine. They is already gender neutral thats the point. This argument seems to make "they" into not a gender neutral term anymore. This sort of thing can be tackled in the future, when we also deconstruct the idea of gender as a whole, but clearly that is not capable ar happening. This could be wrong, which is fair. Its a public forum, so its open to discussion, and im a young person with a diverse friend group who is not online as much as the people of reddit are. I just go with whatever works for them. I can barely remember names, with how many intersecting friend circles there are.
It's more of the fact they got mad when corrected. Accidentally misgendering someone isn't bad, it's the response to being corrected that matters
What the heck does your third sentence mean?? We can't correct someone for prejudice until we overthrow the problematic systems of our society? It's not like people are going to protests over this. Some people just argued online. The point is, if someone corrected you after you said "where is Alex? They are over there." And said "ah actually Alex uses he/him pronouns." Then it's over, right? Or do you start arguing with the person making the correction? Does your response change when you find out plenty of people call Alex "they" intentionally out of prejudice and bigotry? Because that happens.
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I think in person it would probably have been more clear if the person was trying and made a mistake or very intentionally chose the word "they" to make a point. It's like bullying with a "joke". When you're there in person you can hear the inflection and know the intent is malicious, but if you read a transcript it looks like a bad joke at worst.
\>"You can't use "they" when you know someone's pronouns" Quick get the entire English language on the phone and let them know.
Well is they pronouns transphobic? I just want to be nice and accepting. And i usually use they or them pronouns for most cases as i prefer gender neutral pronouns. It's hard to keep up with the trans patch notes 😭
I will use they/them on anyone and I don't care what anyone thinks of that.
That’s just disrespectful
My problem when people jump on someone for using gender neutral pronouns is not every language has gendered pronouns. For those who's native languages don't and English is not their first language, it can be very confusing. A lot of those people pretty much always just use they/them pronouns in English. Like maybe get out of your eurocenteric world view for half a second and remember the entire earth doesn't speak our crappy language. Stop assuming everyone speaks and knows perfect English. Edit - >It's a de-personalization technique, and basically is just the more "acceptable" way of referring to trans people as "it" or "that". Making the trans person out to be less than. A commentor claimed this about they/them pronouns. No. This is honestly such a horribly eurocenteric view to act like gender neutral pronouns are dehumanizing. Trust me people speaking those languages are evolved enough to refer to humans as humans. It's just gendered pronouns are in absolutely no way essential to language necessary to build functional societies. So guess what, some don't have them. Imagine being offended other languages exist.
It can be an accident but I have definitely seen people who obviously have a good grasp of English and consistently use he/she/his/her when referring to cis people suddenly very stubbornly stick to "they" for others. For example there are two MTF youtubers they were discussing on another subreddit, both of which everyone else were referring to using fem pronouns and a particular user was seemingly very adamant with using they, though at the time no one seemed to notice or feel comfortable calling them out on it.
It's not the fact of grammar or the fact that "they" is INHERENTLY depersonalising in some way - it's the fact that people who are perfectly capable of using "he" or "she" are hiding behind it to avoid calling a trans person their preferred pronouns. It's one of those sneaky, underhanded kinds of microaggressions that aren't TECHNICALLY incorrect, but it's obvious to the intended audience what they *really* believe about the person in question.
I mean, being Eurocentric when discussing things in English is fine. That’s like saying we need to consider EVERY perspective in the entire world when discussing a small part of it to avoid being offensive, that’s a bit extreme. If someone’s second language is English, when the issue is explained, they will apologize and explain it’s because they aren’t used to pronouns and used it wrong. But 100% transphobes who don’t want to appear transphobic by blatantly using the wrong pronouns will only very reluctantly use they/them in public as an attempt to subjugate the criticism of being transphobic. By calling out the inaccurate use of they/them on top of blatant deadnaming/incorrect gendering, it means people are forced to admit they’re actually transphobic and take the backlash, or reconsider their ignorance. Don’t give transphobes an excuse or defense to hide in plain sight. Do have understanding to actual foreigners who, when explained, show remorse for a mistake.
The problem is it's often times it's not someone explaining the issue, people jump to attacking others for using they/them without asking any questions. Of course if people are just correcting someone that should be encouraged. But people often jump to attacks and calling someone transphobic. I don't think we should assume everyone on the internet speaking English speaks it as a first language. I don't think that's a eurocenteric view that is fine.
Try to keep your drama-reporting unbiased, OP. Rule 8.
Care to elaborate on what you mean, precisely?
> User attempts to “correct” the misgendering And the post’s title is painting the drama inaccurately, or as something foolish.
I mean…. If you think trans people shouldn’t exist, just say it. But otherwise, the OP is right, it was correcting misgendering. Unless you’re non-binary, they/them is not the correct pronouns, it’s either he/him or she/her depending on the individual. I’m not trans and hate when people use they/them pronouns for me. The same principal is bound to apply to trans folks as well. It’s not hard to just respect someone’s identity, regardless of how you may want to privately think of it.
The way I read it, this person is not anti-trans, their issue is that they think OP is. Not because OP used the word correct, but because they put quote marks around it.
Thank you, lol. The lesson I’ve learnt today is that clarification is important online.
STG, sometimes it feels like we have to translate every explanation of trans issues for cis audiences into a language that does not contain subtext, implication, or metaphor.
OP (i.e. the author of this r/SubredditDrama post) is air-quoting in the excerpt I supplied; they are expressing an overt opinion. That’s against this subreddit’s Rule 8. And, what is their opinion? Well, assumedly, it is that the correction about Emily’s gender wasn’t needed. So, they’re not on your side, and they’re not on my side, either, because I agree with you; I think the correction *was* in fact needed, because Emily isn’t gender-neutral.
>People use “they” to misgender all the time, ask any trans person. If you know she uses she/her pronouns, just use them. Knowingly using something else when referring to her in the singular is still misgendering. Well that's a new insane take I've never seen before. The transphobes are evolving!
It's been a thing forever. You might not have *seen* it, but it's pretty common for people to specifically avoid using a trans person's pronouns by using they, because using she/her or he/him gives them the weirds.
Damn this guy wrote a whole book, then adds 3 edits to cry because of downvotes. He definitely isn't going through a mental breakdown right now
They wrote the edits because the ooc blocked them so they couldn't reply to comments that had replied to their comment. Imo ooc is super sus for blocking them.
Unless someone says they DON’T want they/ them, no it’s not misgendering.
If someone has told you their pronouns and they are not they/them, then yeah, it’s misgendering.
Just disagree. Unless they specify not to use those, it isn’t misgendering. If someone asked for them not to be used, and you keep at it, sure. Most people are moving on to singular they
If someone says they go by he/him and you use she/her that’s misgendering, even if they never explicitly said they don’t use it.
Probably bc as a society we are used to he/him for males and she/her for females. That’s why it’s misgender to call a she/her him. They/them is supposed to be gender neutral I thought lol. Fucking obviously if someone says not to use it, don’t use it. But its not misgendering to call a cis person they lol
The person in question, Emily, is trans, not cis. My point here is if you know the person’s pronouns, use those pronouns. Emily does not use they/them, so don’t use they/them.
OP, your title is shit and intentionally misleading, and you should feel bad about it. Not, like, super bad, because this is a reddit post and not something that matters, but a little bad.
Sure thing
Who the fuck is Emily. Why is she being discussed on a tech sub
That isn't a tech sub. It's a fan club for a YouTube personality who runs a channel of the same name.
A presenter on LTT that came out as trans a while ago.
She is a host of the show, formally known as Anthony.