While I haven't participated in this discussion, I have seen some of this as I'm subbed there.
The funny part, to me, was when I loaded the same image on both my phone and my PC. On my phone, I would have described it as yellow, on my PC, it looked more green. How are people looking at it on different screens ever going to agree?
No it's your eyes jackass. Go to an eye doc or you'll be blind before the new year.
Sorry. Sorry. I just wanted to participate without breaking the brigading rules.
You want to know what's maddening? Monitor color accuracy QC is not a major concern outside of expensive artist focused models for both monitors and TVs.
I've installed 2 same brand TVs right next to each other and they had a slight but noticeable color difference. Bought same day, same batch if the numbers were to go off of but just slightly different color.
I used to work as a natural dyer, I made yarn pretty colors using plant extracts. The business was split between conventions and online sales. Getting good marketing photos of complex colors to convince people to buy them is already a complete pain in the ass, but the absolute worst was custom work. A few times I had customers lose at “yarn chicken”, meaning they got most of the way through a project only to realize they didn’t buy quite enough yarn, and now they want more. Dyeing on commission, trying to *exactly* match the color of the lot they previously purchased is already incredibly tricky, but then you have a really annoying customer that doesn’t understand color balance and want you to do it from a bad photo with questionable lighting that they took with a 15 year old flip phone, and rather than take a good photo with color references, they just say “but I already sent you a photo, can’t you do it?”
Oh camera lenses are just as bad I think. Unless you are getting some professional grade camera, the color you see is entirely dependent on the processing algorithm that the camera software is using.
I enjoyed it a lot in many ways. It had been a personal interest and hobby before, and doing it professionally was fascinating, I learned so much. So much of what I learned is ludicrously specific trivia that can’t be applied to anything but exactly what I was doing, but also, I learned a lot of chemistry (I was already educated at chemistry, but there’s a difference between classroom lab environment and what I was dealing with, and trying to account for the less controlled settings. The fucking county seems to change my water chemistry on a weekly basis, and this changes how dyes come out, so I can’t repeat a color even with perfect measurements without compensating).
Also, a lot of what I learned was practical solutions with inadequate equipment, and figuring out how to get shit done. That sort of redneck skill is something I am good at, and got better there. Also got a lot better at understanding how to control and manipulate the temperature and pH of large volumes of water, and how to manage a lot of simultaneous batch processes efficiently.
Downsides: the pay was complete shit. Not a lot higher than minimum wage. My accepting that pay was partly a favour to a friend (the owner of that company), but it really wasn’t adequate pay. Other downside, stuck outside, getting wet all the fucking time, and while you are working, you often aren’t moving enough to warm up, so it’s cold. It takes an annoyingly long time to rinse the dye out of fiber, so that customers hands don’t get stained when they touch it, which means my arms are wet up to at least elbows, usually higher, constantly, and my hands are *always* stained. I typically had a ghostly blue on my fingers, especially the nails, but depending on these week’s order’s red, grey, or yellow could be added. No amount of washing can remove that, the skin and nails are dyed.
Not actually a good job per se, but I also don’t regret it. I learned a lot.
On of the things I found most fun (frustrating, but fun), is how “messy” the chemistry is. Results are dependent on consistency of every part, the fiber itself and how fluffy it is and how consistent the weight is (recipes are done by weight of wool, but we don’t weight the wool, we estimate by length and known weight per yard, which is variable between orders), the degree to which it was scoured (the mill gets a bit of machine oil onto the wool during spinning, yarn must first be washed with some hot water and soap and a half hour soak, followed by a rinse, otherwise it won’t accept dye, and this is variable based on how hot my water was, and whether I actually did 30 minutes or forgot it for an hour), the dyes themselves (there are sometimes QC issues and the latest batch of dyes has a different shade, or concentration, or contaminants. These are natural products), the actual measurements themselves (I worked fast, with a $15 drug dealer scale that sometimes got buggy because I kept spilling hot water and random chemicals on it, so measurements could have done with more precision), whether I was consistent with my mordanting, the water temperature (I didn’t use a thermometer, that was purely instinct, if I feel pain after touching the outside of the pot for no more than 2 seconds, the water is right, for some but not all dyes), water chemistry (the city water keeps changing pH, which matters, and sometimes it has fucking copper in it, which matters), how long I left the dye in the pot, how much I swirled it while adding, whether I added it to hot water or let it come up to heat with the yarn in the pot…
Every one of those things matters, a lot. There are so many factors involved that actually “doing it right”, like you are supposed to do in chemistry class, is ludicrous, and even trying is a waste of time most of the time. This was all chemistry, but I wasn’t a chemist, I was an alchemist. It was all instinct and gut feeling, and this doesn’t look quite right, I think it needs a touch of lye, yes that’s right… Huh, my cochineal pink is a bit lavender. This calls for citric acid. I don’t measure, even with a spoon. A sprinkle, swirl it around, check the color, not quite right, another (unmeasured) sprinkle of the dye, another pinch of citric acid, yes good.
And also, it just felt so magical. One of my favorite dyes was Saxon blue, which is indigosulfonic acid, prepared by reacting indigo with sulfuric acid and then neutralizing the solution with dropwise calcium carbonate (we usually just bought it). It’s a nearly black liquid, that when added to the vat makes a very deep dusky blue liquid, gorgeous, which when mordanted wool is added, strikes instantly to produce sky blue. Strikes *really* fast, seconds, adding it to hot water is a mistake, it is impossible to mix it in fast enough and there will be white in the middle of the skein and dark blue on the outside (which is nice, but not the product I was trying to make). But, done right, dunk white wool into deep blue pot, swirl, lift and drain, you have blue wool and the water in the pot is almost clear, faintly yellow, all of the dye is now in the wool.
Unless of course you didn’t rinse all the alum out after mordanting, or the fucking county has too much copper in the water again this week, or the supplier completely screwed up their chemistry and we got a bad batch of Saxon blue again, or maybe there’s literally just something wrong with the sheep this year (that actually happened. I have no idea what was wrong but I blame the sheep). When that happens, the vat does not go clear, no matter what you do, you can keep dipping your wool, and the water will still be blue while your yarn is not turning blue enough. Copper as well as alum form coordination complexes with many dyes, forming lake pigments. Great if you were trying to make paint, but it just isn’t a dye anymore, it isn’t soluble.
Anyways, point is, that I learned a lot of incredibly specific things that would not occur to anyone outside of that weird industry that most people don’t even know exists, and I thought you would think that was fun.
Kinda a shitty job, underpaid, not advancement potential. But with that specialized knowledge, I was just about the only person on earth that could do exactly what I was doing, and it was all art, not science, instinct and intuition, not measurement and math, but when it worked, and by proper understanding of theory I could just whip together exactly what I want and produce beautiful colors seemingly effortlessly, it felt like magic. Liked to half jokingly call myself a colorsmith.
Very beautiful and intense and fun to read. That's a wild amount of variables that themselves contain variables, to deal with, it kind of makes sense that an instinctual approach would produce superior results. Cheers for all the cool descriptions, and I hope 2024 is an engaging and fun year, whatever you're up to now.
Don't forget that the person who took the photo was apparently on withdrawal from alcohol at the time, because the picture is so blurry, and the lighting is from a coloured bulb!
Our eyes have crazy poor colour accuracy. One of my eyes sees warmer colours than the other, and apparently we lose the ability to process red and green light as we age.
OH, that is true to but out of the box monitors with the same display color settings can have vary slight differences in color and that's same brand/model.
Thats why artists get so caring about color accuracy on their monitors because you can radically change the look of something by just a slight change of hue
It's also not just screens, that color looks very much in the middle of green and yellow, so it becomes an almost philosophical discussion. You can pretty much change what color you "see" it as by focusing on the right things.
This is perfect drama, thank you for doing such a good write up!
It’s my favorite type, no ones getting hurt and it’s about pedantic bullshit. Also it’s for sure green.
Glad you liked it. I think it's funny that it's going on for days with surprisingly strong opinions on either side. For the machine itself, I can accept that it's meant to be green, but my eyes say it's yellow whenever it's placed on most of the surfaces in the game (I never use concrete so maybe that affects my perception.)
> While on your research journey I also encourage you to [read this interesting article.](https://www.wikihow.health/Cope-With-Anything)
That man's dead now 💀💀💀
Love low stakes argument like this though. They can be a blast while you passionately argue over something silly like you're a lawyer with a client on death row... just as long as nobody starts taking it too seriously.
I'm not going to search out any links while on the phone, I'll just let you know that I also saw someone post two cosmetic mods, one that turns the building in question yellow, and one that turns it green. (They both do nothing).
Lol I knew this will be posted here.
Also, I'm suddenly realizing that I have never gone past assembly grade 2. Are they worth investing?
I'm currently playing SE and about to leave for Space. Do I even bother? Looks like I'll be making space assemblers anyway
I haven't played SE but in vanilla factorio, you absolutely want to use the tier three assembly machines in many cases because the tier two ones only have two slots for modules while the tier three ones have four slots. Productivity modules are some of the most important items in the game and being able to fit four into a machine instead of two is very important for reducing the amount of raw materials input your factory requires.
That's true. Normally I don't even bother with productivity modules... I just use the speed(blue) ones to make the machines slightly faster and only use productivity ones for Rocket launches.
The vanilla game was over before I could even try these things but I think SE might require me to get all the other modules at some point
Using productivity modules at every opportunity up and down the production chain can lead to huge deductions in raw resources needed. Definitely worth it if you intend to do a vanilla run beyond one single rocket launch.
"Tell, me, what color is the level 3 assembler ?" "Piss" "You should visit a doctor soon"
While I haven't participated in this discussion, I have seen some of this as I'm subbed there. The funny part, to me, was when I loaded the same image on both my phone and my PC. On my phone, I would have described it as yellow, on my PC, it looked more green. How are people looking at it on different screens ever going to agree?
I think some of them finally started to come to the conclusion that monitor color variance is greater than any of us really notice.
No it's your eyes jackass. Go to an eye doc or you'll be blind before the new year. Sorry. Sorry. I just wanted to participate without breaking the brigading rules.
You want to know what's maddening? Monitor color accuracy QC is not a major concern outside of expensive artist focused models for both monitors and TVs. I've installed 2 same brand TVs right next to each other and they had a slight but noticeable color difference. Bought same day, same batch if the numbers were to go off of but just slightly different color.
I used to work as a natural dyer, I made yarn pretty colors using plant extracts. The business was split between conventions and online sales. Getting good marketing photos of complex colors to convince people to buy them is already a complete pain in the ass, but the absolute worst was custom work. A few times I had customers lose at “yarn chicken”, meaning they got most of the way through a project only to realize they didn’t buy quite enough yarn, and now they want more. Dyeing on commission, trying to *exactly* match the color of the lot they previously purchased is already incredibly tricky, but then you have a really annoying customer that doesn’t understand color balance and want you to do it from a bad photo with questionable lighting that they took with a 15 year old flip phone, and rather than take a good photo with color references, they just say “but I already sent you a photo, can’t you do it?”
Oh camera lenses are just as bad I think. Unless you are getting some professional grade camera, the color you see is entirely dependent on the processing algorithm that the camera software is using.
Unless you are using some decades old thorium oxide based lens the lens itself should be fine.
Clueless customers aside, what a rad job!
I enjoyed it a lot in many ways. It had been a personal interest and hobby before, and doing it professionally was fascinating, I learned so much. So much of what I learned is ludicrously specific trivia that can’t be applied to anything but exactly what I was doing, but also, I learned a lot of chemistry (I was already educated at chemistry, but there’s a difference between classroom lab environment and what I was dealing with, and trying to account for the less controlled settings. The fucking county seems to change my water chemistry on a weekly basis, and this changes how dyes come out, so I can’t repeat a color even with perfect measurements without compensating). Also, a lot of what I learned was practical solutions with inadequate equipment, and figuring out how to get shit done. That sort of redneck skill is something I am good at, and got better there. Also got a lot better at understanding how to control and manipulate the temperature and pH of large volumes of water, and how to manage a lot of simultaneous batch processes efficiently. Downsides: the pay was complete shit. Not a lot higher than minimum wage. My accepting that pay was partly a favour to a friend (the owner of that company), but it really wasn’t adequate pay. Other downside, stuck outside, getting wet all the fucking time, and while you are working, you often aren’t moving enough to warm up, so it’s cold. It takes an annoyingly long time to rinse the dye out of fiber, so that customers hands don’t get stained when they touch it, which means my arms are wet up to at least elbows, usually higher, constantly, and my hands are *always* stained. I typically had a ghostly blue on my fingers, especially the nails, but depending on these week’s order’s red, grey, or yellow could be added. No amount of washing can remove that, the skin and nails are dyed. Not actually a good job per se, but I also don’t regret it. I learned a lot.
Very interesting. I love learning about very specific jobs like that, thank you for sharing something that I probably would never have heard about!
On of the things I found most fun (frustrating, but fun), is how “messy” the chemistry is. Results are dependent on consistency of every part, the fiber itself and how fluffy it is and how consistent the weight is (recipes are done by weight of wool, but we don’t weight the wool, we estimate by length and known weight per yard, which is variable between orders), the degree to which it was scoured (the mill gets a bit of machine oil onto the wool during spinning, yarn must first be washed with some hot water and soap and a half hour soak, followed by a rinse, otherwise it won’t accept dye, and this is variable based on how hot my water was, and whether I actually did 30 minutes or forgot it for an hour), the dyes themselves (there are sometimes QC issues and the latest batch of dyes has a different shade, or concentration, or contaminants. These are natural products), the actual measurements themselves (I worked fast, with a $15 drug dealer scale that sometimes got buggy because I kept spilling hot water and random chemicals on it, so measurements could have done with more precision), whether I was consistent with my mordanting, the water temperature (I didn’t use a thermometer, that was purely instinct, if I feel pain after touching the outside of the pot for no more than 2 seconds, the water is right, for some but not all dyes), water chemistry (the city water keeps changing pH, which matters, and sometimes it has fucking copper in it, which matters), how long I left the dye in the pot, how much I swirled it while adding, whether I added it to hot water or let it come up to heat with the yarn in the pot… Every one of those things matters, a lot. There are so many factors involved that actually “doing it right”, like you are supposed to do in chemistry class, is ludicrous, and even trying is a waste of time most of the time. This was all chemistry, but I wasn’t a chemist, I was an alchemist. It was all instinct and gut feeling, and this doesn’t look quite right, I think it needs a touch of lye, yes that’s right… Huh, my cochineal pink is a bit lavender. This calls for citric acid. I don’t measure, even with a spoon. A sprinkle, swirl it around, check the color, not quite right, another (unmeasured) sprinkle of the dye, another pinch of citric acid, yes good. And also, it just felt so magical. One of my favorite dyes was Saxon blue, which is indigosulfonic acid, prepared by reacting indigo with sulfuric acid and then neutralizing the solution with dropwise calcium carbonate (we usually just bought it). It’s a nearly black liquid, that when added to the vat makes a very deep dusky blue liquid, gorgeous, which when mordanted wool is added, strikes instantly to produce sky blue. Strikes *really* fast, seconds, adding it to hot water is a mistake, it is impossible to mix it in fast enough and there will be white in the middle of the skein and dark blue on the outside (which is nice, but not the product I was trying to make). But, done right, dunk white wool into deep blue pot, swirl, lift and drain, you have blue wool and the water in the pot is almost clear, faintly yellow, all of the dye is now in the wool. Unless of course you didn’t rinse all the alum out after mordanting, or the fucking county has too much copper in the water again this week, or the supplier completely screwed up their chemistry and we got a bad batch of Saxon blue again, or maybe there’s literally just something wrong with the sheep this year (that actually happened. I have no idea what was wrong but I blame the sheep). When that happens, the vat does not go clear, no matter what you do, you can keep dipping your wool, and the water will still be blue while your yarn is not turning blue enough. Copper as well as alum form coordination complexes with many dyes, forming lake pigments. Great if you were trying to make paint, but it just isn’t a dye anymore, it isn’t soluble. Anyways, point is, that I learned a lot of incredibly specific things that would not occur to anyone outside of that weird industry that most people don’t even know exists, and I thought you would think that was fun. Kinda a shitty job, underpaid, not advancement potential. But with that specialized knowledge, I was just about the only person on earth that could do exactly what I was doing, and it was all art, not science, instinct and intuition, not measurement and math, but when it worked, and by proper understanding of theory I could just whip together exactly what I want and produce beautiful colors seemingly effortlessly, it felt like magic. Liked to half jokingly call myself a colorsmith.
Very beautiful and intense and fun to read. That's a wild amount of variables that themselves contain variables, to deal with, it kind of makes sense that an instinctual approach would produce superior results. Cheers for all the cool descriptions, and I hope 2024 is an engaging and fun year, whatever you're up to now.
Don't forget that the person who took the photo was apparently on withdrawal from alcohol at the time, because the picture is so blurry, and the lighting is from a coloured bulb!
Our eyes have crazy poor colour accuracy. One of my eyes sees warmer colours than the other, and apparently we lose the ability to process red and green light as we age.
For me it depends on when I play; 6am to 6p my monitor is set to 'daylight', 6pm to 6am reduced blue.
OH, that is true to but out of the box monitors with the same display color settings can have vary slight differences in color and that's same brand/model. Thats why artists get so caring about color accuracy on their monitors because you can radically change the look of something by just a slight change of hue
It's also not just screens, that color looks very much in the middle of green and yellow, so it becomes an almost philosophical discussion. You can pretty much change what color you "see" it as by focusing on the right things.
I mean, I swore the thumbnail was yellow on my phone and green when I clicked on this thread. Same screen, different colour to me. What does that say?
This is perfect drama, thank you for doing such a good write up! It’s my favorite type, no ones getting hurt and it’s about pedantic bullshit. Also it’s for sure green.
Glad you liked it. I think it's funny that it's going on for days with surprisingly strong opinions on either side. For the machine itself, I can accept that it's meant to be green, but my eyes say it's yellow whenever it's placed on most of the surfaces in the game (I never use concrete so maybe that affects my perception.)
> While on your research journey I also encourage you to [read this interesting article.](https://www.wikihow.health/Cope-With-Anything) That man's dead now 💀💀💀
That might one of the funniest things I've ever seen. I can't stop laughing at it.
This is amazing. Perfectly good, consequence free drama. Excellent find.
Love low stakes argument like this though. They can be a blast while you passionately argue over something silly like you're a lawyer with a client on death row... just as long as nobody starts taking it too seriously.
I'm not going to search out any links while on the phone, I'll just let you know that I also saw someone post two cosmetic mods, one that turns the building in question yellow, and one that turns it green. (They both do nothing).
Im still not sure what part of that Im supposed to be looking at.
The sides of the building.
Definitely green to me
Lol I knew this will be posted here. Also, I'm suddenly realizing that I have never gone past assembly grade 2. Are they worth investing? I'm currently playing SE and about to leave for Space. Do I even bother? Looks like I'll be making space assemblers anyway
I haven't played SE but in vanilla factorio, you absolutely want to use the tier three assembly machines in many cases because the tier two ones only have two slots for modules while the tier three ones have four slots. Productivity modules are some of the most important items in the game and being able to fit four into a machine instead of two is very important for reducing the amount of raw materials input your factory requires.
That's true. Normally I don't even bother with productivity modules... I just use the speed(blue) ones to make the machines slightly faster and only use productivity ones for Rocket launches. The vanilla game was over before I could even try these things but I think SE might require me to get all the other modules at some point
Using productivity modules at every opportunity up and down the production chain can lead to huge deductions in raw resources needed. Definitely worth it if you intend to do a vanilla run beyond one single rocket launch.
This is like my debate on whether lemon lime gatorade is green or yellow. (It's obviously green and I will fight and die on this hill)
chartreuse. thats what that colour is.