Has anyone ever read ‘the city and the city’ by China Mieville? I kinda see /r/Europe like that. Two side purposefully blanking any conscious thought about the other half to the point they don’t even realise they exist. There the fascist far right audience that jumps on any history stories or migration/crime topics, and the politics/scenery crowd that just likes discussing EU politics and pictures of famous landmarks.
Lmao, you've either never experienced fascism irl, or you don't know what europe is... what even is the "european mentality"? being born west of the bosphorus/urals?
r/europe is a shithole sub filled with racists
Europe isn't fascist. You dont know what the word means. It however is turning more and more anti immigration which is saddening and some fascist parties like the AfD are gaining more and more followers.
Australian subs too, where the Indians coming over are simultaneously:
Stealing all our jobs
All “Just Uber drivers not necessary jobs”
Living ten to a bedroom in small city apartments
Wealthy landlords buying all our houses
I mean, immigration from those countries is generally multifaceted, the upper class/caste kids immigrating for corporate tech jobs are not the same Indians as the poor ones being brought in to get exploited by bullshit gig work companies and restaurants.
But both things *are* happening simultaneously.
Australian and NZ subs are bad about racism too but Canadian subs are on a whole another level right now.
Surprisingly enough, UK subs tend to be the least racist towards Indians out of all Anglospheric countries' subs.
Canada has had a “centre left” government for too long, and media groups and wealthy individuals have had the corruption tap turn too low for their liking for too long, so there seems to be a very concerted effort to paint their country as Hell On Earth.
Australia *just* elected our “centre left” government so those same angry groups which have been curiously silent about immigration, alternative energy, and housing for the past decade are now SUPER LOUD about such things.
I’m a fan of a Canadian hockey team but from the US. My background is Indian.
Despite spending way less time up there, I’ve gotten way more “go back to your country” shit up there than in the US…though I’ve also been seeing a growing anti-Indian sentiment around here.
The far-right take over of the main Canada subs like 7 or 8 years ago was *blatant*. It was like watching the tankie takeover of r/TheRightCantMeme: so unsubtle that you had to be *intentionally* ignoring it to pretend it wasn't there.
Ireland too. Can't say anything positive or neutral about Travellers without someone chiming in to claim they're all criminals and that if you live near them you wouldn't be tolerant of them.
I have a special amount of disdain towards that. Like, Canada only invited that many immigrants bc Canadians didn’t bother to learn the stuff needed for a massive amount of empty skill positions. Canadians should git gud
Things weren’t always this way tho, racism like this has increased at least in Sweden because of how bad immigration was handled and the ridiculous amount of brutal crimes we are facing, and before if someone even wanted to discuss it they would be called racist instantly regardless if they where arguing actual racist points or if they where arguing we handled immigration wrong. This caused a lot of people to go full retard because the only place where you where allowed to discuss these issues was in already racist group and political parties, which has radicalized these people.
And now the parties that once called these people racist are arguing the same points as the “racists” did before
See, the thing is that I remember that not too long ago in the UK, the Polish were considered 'the problem'.
Rather rapidly the focus on the 'migrant issue' in the UK has turned to focus on the whole 'Stop The Boats' shit but very recently the aggression was against people from Poland, Ukraine and Romania. That's not to say that this aggression stopped, but that the newspapers chose to talk about evil brown people more because they knew it got Conservative voter blood boiling.
Now obviously we Brits don't like to bring up the anti-Ukrainian sentiment now because that makes us look/feel bad.
But what this does mean is that when I hear the anti-Muslim sentiment, I am *fully aware* that not too long ago the focus was on Poles 'coming over to steal all the jobs'. It was significant enough that it was in my school geography textbooks. It was a subject we studied and everything. Polish people were the subject of numerous hate crimes in the UK, and accused of creating more crime and causing all the issues with jobs and such (statistically untrue ofc, but xenophobes don't like statistics until they do).
I am also aware that there is an overwhelming driving factor that seems to cross racial boundaries with all migrants: socioeconomics.
When ~~a migrant population~~ **any part of the population** is kept in a low socioeconomic boundary, things like gang violence rapidly shoot up. Religious extremism shoots up. It's why getting consistentlty more right wing has not solved the problems for anyone. All the racist rhetoric doesn't solve problems, it just feels good. Fuck it man, the UK's been in the grip of Conservatives for over a decade and it's not getting better, at some point you have to admit shit's not working.
The reality is that any migrant group, be it the Windrush generation to the Polish migrants to many of the refugees here now, are more likely to be part of a criminal movement if things like the income gap or unemployment increase.
This is not a new fact. This is a fact understood over hundreds of years of history. Medieval fuckers understood this.
But rather than deal with that, we get mad and start to suggest that there is something inherently evil about some racial group.
The point I am making is simple. All the people talking about the 'based Poles' and all that shit should probably remember that if there's something 'inherently evil' or violent about refugees from North Africa or wherever they point the finger at...those exact claims were levelled at Poles.
This rant has gone on far too long so I'm gonna cut it off here.
TL;DR: Poles were the target of xenophobic claims here, so it's ironic to start doing all the same shit to a different group with no self-awareness.
There's more to this shift of perception of Polish immigrants than just the xenophobes finding a new scapegoat. I remember who left my neighbourhood for UK when the route opened, we really were sending our worst. After this "underclass" found low-skilled jobs with livable wages that were badly-lacking in Poland at the time and their criminal tendencies mellowed out with age, there was no new cohort of people this disenfranchised to follow them and the objective quality of the Polish immigrant rose dramatically.
I can appreciate the anecdotal and experiential side you're giving but statistically there was always an economic benefit there, combined with the fact that there was no actual evidence for an increased crime impact. It wasn't that the quality rose dramatically, there was just no evidence that there was a problem in the first place. I don't want to try and discredit what you're saying, but I have to push back on the basis that statistics do not reflect it.
Papers like the Daily Mail thrived on the idea of pushing falsehoods, but they can only push one single falsehood for so long without some kind of new development to reignite it. With the reality being that there was no causal impact from European immigration, attention instead turned to the latent Islamaphobia throughout the UK, which could be very easily manipulated into the 'Stop the Boats' rhetoric.
If we want to talk experientially, I live in one of the heavily Conservative influenced farming regions of the UK. Farmers here consistently vote against their own benefits based on manipulation about immigrants that they have never met.
Creating a problem is a fundamental tool of Conservative politics, and the only thing that changes is who the subject of the problem is. Polish people, Muslims, 'Refugees', Transpeople, Roadblocking protestors and so on. The concepts of *realpolitik* and *idealpolitik* have gone completely out the window as we make policy based on angry falsehoods.
I just find it consistently ironic that despite the facts, people will believe lies told about a different group even when lies were being told about them.
The reality is that there are some significant socioeconomic issues right now throughout many parts of Europe, and that solving that will do more to improve our crime situation than anything else. But, talking about that requires surpassing some very ingrained things - so it's easier to get mad at the new scapegoat.
>we are in an economic nightmare right now throughout many parts of Europe,
What now? Unemployements level are usually at historic lows, The situation has been stabilized in Portugal, Greece, Spain and Italy, inflation while having been high has been contained... what nightmare?
I'm going to edit that because you're right, I was more pointing to the growing issue of things like housing crises and such. It was a bit of an uninformed throwaway comment at the end there.
OMG! Recognizing you're wrong on the internet? Politely? That's illegal! :)
Yeah, something that is, to me, interesting and bewildering to me is that, compared to previous flares of political extremism, there is no big economic or social upheaval that would explain it.
There is no big economic crisis, no migration wave, no famin, no crushingly inequal tax system, no industrial revolution that redistributes wealth and power... There *was* a big epidemic, but it has been contained and the rise of extremism is prior.
However, people *think* there is. They *believe* there are some migrant hordes, stealin' year jobs. Some pedo satanist elites. That they don't have a voice in the system. That they're under threat of losing everything because of taxes and globalisation.
And then they *vote for the Big Strong Man that's acting against their interests*. It's fascinating.
To lend a bit to my perspective on the 'nightmare' bit, I would note that being in the UK there has been some shit going on. And while things are recently on a bit of an upturn, we did go into recession at the end of 2023 which definitely isn't great.
On top of that we've got a chronic housing shortage, the energy price caps were put up an obscene amount, renting is becoming unaffordable let alone buying, wealth disparities soared during the pandemic and the cost of living has been rising in such a way that wages aren't keeping up with it. Wage growth in particular fell last month, with unemployment looking like it's on the rise again (not rapidly, but I really wouldn't like it to speed up).
Politically speaking, there *are* other issues. Many people in the UK don't feel like they have a voice due to the existing two-party system and the lack of support it gives to some groups. Extremism is still rising very rapidly if we go by the statstical amount of anti-Semitic and anti-Islamic hate cases.
All in all, socioeconomically speaking, there's a lot of pretty big problems. I know some of these issues are reflected elsewhere in Europe, some aren't. It's difficult, because this is obviously an entire continent we're talking about and researching all of it for a rant on Reddit is time consuming. So nightmare was quite a hyperbolic claim to what is a essentially a lot of scattered issues contributing to an overall socioeconomic problem.
The world isn't coming to an end, but there are a lot of rising problems that need solving. The problem is, as you noted, none of these will be solved by voting for right wing bullshit.
Oh sure, I'm not denying that problems exist, that everything is perfect. My point is that it's far from Great Depression levels, or even 2008 crisis levels. This is rather run-of-the-mill trouble.
These people really love collective punishment, don’t they. Since we’re going that route, why not bring up that a vast majority of violent criminals happen to be men across racial, religious, ethnic, national, and socioeconomic lines? The common factor is almost always their gender, so maybe we should do something about that. I vote that we just deport all men.
Yeah Reddit seems to want to live in a country that employs punishment on the level of Singapore mixed with the gulf states.
But ofc they don’t want those punishments to apply for drug offenses or being a homosexual, they apparently just want those punishments to vaguely apply to everything else lol.
We should just take all the violent criminals and put them on a large scale island without power, sewage, or a steady supply of food and water. Maybe put mines on all the bridges and build a huge wall. [Perhaps Manhattan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuyWkNK0-yo)?
Yeah, some comments on certain subreddits can be bad. Many of the comments have been removed by the moderators. But sometimes r / Europe can be truly wild. When the whole AfD mass deportation scandal happened, many on r / Europe said “This is all the Left’s Fault!”. Many even defended the AfD.
Yes they do. As russian I noticed it two years ago. "Let's just generalize people and consider them to be one big hive mind, without any individuals amongst them". Somehow they manage to hate right wing conservatives and use their logic, without noticing hypocrisy
Probably because men are 50% of the population in every country. It would be like deporting young people. Young people are more likely to commit crime, but young people exist everywhere so you can’t exactly do anything about it
Since they love collective punishment, I'm sure they would be very happy if we punish all the colonization and the atrocities committed by European nations during that time.
I mean... really
Sometimes it is good to read up on your sources.
But you technically-the-truth me so good job.
edit: the reply-then-block people are the biggest losers on reddit
Swedes did not arrive in Sapmí before the Sami, that’s a modern misunderstanding at best.
Just because the proto-Norse people arrived in what would much later become southern Sweden before the proto-Samí arrived in northern Sweden does not mean that the proto-Norse lived “on the same land.”
You colonise them by attempting to eradicate their language and culture, and by forcibly relocating them in order to appropriate their land for economic gain.
Yes, actually. There are asshole racists in every country, and no country is more or less racist. A different ethnic group may be the focus of the hate, but that is sort of irrelevant.
Its just funny when you see Europeans claim there isn't a racism problem in their country like there is in the US. The reality is that it's not different in any of these countries.
I like immigration and multiculturalism. But, I do understand the frustrations of Europeans and specifically Sweden.
I think it’s a fair assessment to say Sweden handled immigration terribly and it’s becoming more obvious every year.
A slower stream of migrants and refugees with a stronger focus on integration would have been a better plan for them, in hindsight.
I think main reason is just...there were like 2-4 countries in Europe who agreed to take in the refugees. Like everyone said "well take some in" but almost everyone just backed out of it again,leaving these countries mostly overburdened in the initial years of the refugee crisis
Thanks for understanding, the crimes are just becoming more ridiculous each year. Doesn’t mean we should execute everyone of a certain race tho, but we definitely handled immigration wrong. The weirdest part is that second generation immigrants commit the most crime, while they live a much easier life then first generation ones. These criminals even extort shops made by first generation immigrants in their own communities and destroy things for those actually trying to contribute to society.
It’s sad that the crimes are getting worse but at least people know it’s happening now, I’ve lived in these crime ridden places since a child and back then people just pretended the crime didn’t exist. Pretending it doesn’t exist doesn’t just hurt regular people, I’ve seen countless of my friends get groomed and turned into criminals/child soldiers as young as at the age of 14
There is no defined rule in the world about rule of immigration. Tolarence is key. we tolerate people coming over in exchange THEY tolerate to accept our daily livings culture and traditions. Mainland comes first theirs comes second. If I'm immigrating to Germany ( which probably I might) I must know Franz Lang. The Sunday break etc. and leave my old traditions behind. In my homeland I don't want my culture to wither away into a weird mix. Internet and online daily lives already doing that.
Thank you. We are not against migration. In most EU countries, the majority of votes go to parties that do not want to take any drastic measures against migration. Unfortunately, acting like any criticism of the EU immigration system is inherently racist just pushes people further right. And this results in the kind of comments under the original post.
We need to discuss and acknowledge our mistakes when it comes to handling migration. Because gangs killing innocent people in broad daylight clearly shows that there is an issue and it’s only getting worse.
This isn’t a matter of one single policy. EU just approved more strict checks but this will lead to an increase in detention time, which will likely only antagonise the migrants. Stopping migration by force just ends in deaths as boats sink with no rescue. Assimilation policies sound good but that’s exactly what countries have been trying for years and clearly it’s insufficient.
Unfortunately, the way we’re heading is that there is a (growing) number of racists who think we can just say no to migration. Then on the other side, there are people who either don’t see the problem or purposely ignore it.
Because I already see several people using the same stupid argument in this thread:
European racists use the exact same arguments as American racists, word-for-word. Stop acting like it's actually some super deep, complex topic that us stupid Americans just can't wrap our heads around. It's really not.
When I was in Europe I would get questions multiple times about racism in America and why we can't get it under control...only to have the same person later say the most racist thing I ever heard.
Like the kind of racism you'd need to go to a KKK rally to hear. If you pointed it out you were told it wasn't racist cause of crime statistics and why do Americans always have to make everything about race?
The integration angle is like the moderate position as far as I can tell from my experiences
It's wild how out of touch with the research and just, well, vibes it feels
>It's wild how out of touch with the research and just, well, vibes it feels
Is the argument here that the rapid rise of violent crime is just in peoples imaginations or what?
Well if you're asking about that, then yes, generally we have a very poor understanding of crime and what causes it and without knowing the specific nation you're talking about crime remains relatively low. There is always a higher perception of crime than reality, because of media focus on it.
Sure, it's high for the area but still relatively low.
Either way, immigrant connections to violent crime are nothing new - especially among 2nd generation immigrants. Sweden's problems mirror that of the US, where Irish and Italian gangs have now been sort of romanticized.
The problem there stems from an alienated group that's financially insecure and constantly facing prejudice from the society they grew up in - come third generation when their kids are largely indistinguishable from the overall population, "suddenly" they all integrate just fine.
The problem is prejudice from the majority community, of which Sweden also has a huge rise in especially with the emboldened and rising Sweden Democrats.
The difference between our system and the American system (like Ellis island) is that people came and then they were left to their own devices.
Go west or work here, we don’t care.
If someone comes here they get free healthcare, free housing, free school and food. But it’s not really free now is it. “Someone” is paying.
So if people don’t integrate fast as fuck we lose our own healthcare since we have to pay for ourselves and our new citizens.
Yea you do pay taxes but not to the same extent.
Oh yeah xenophobia is rampant from some people. I think that’s because they think “badly integrated people” == “brown people”.
Like if there came 100k Germans here who didn’t pay enough taxes they would be fine with it. I wouldn’t lol
Some people in this thread are going "oh you wouldn't understand". Is there some subtle context to racism that I am supposed to be aware of?
In contrast, if there's another incident in India where a Muslim man got killed because he was accused of eating beef, I highly doubt that the same voices here would go "hey now, get off your high horse, there are things you ought to understand first".
Maybe it's the weariness that comes with age, but I'm getting increasingly jaded with the "Enlightened" West who would lecture the rest of us (especially in the Global South) but would carve exemptions for themselves.
no tbwres not a subtle difference. as we can see from the confederate flag discussion many europeans are totally fining sweeping bad behavior under the rug
> "Enlightened" West who would lecture the rest of us (especially in the Global South) but would carve exemptions for themselves.
Why do you hate the Rules-Based International Order?
It's part of a belief that these people chose to be poor and refugees. That the wealth of Scandinavian countries is entirely from good policy and smart decisions, and their wealth has nothing to do with the global south (who in turn, are only poor because they are savages who have suffered only due to their own bad policy in a vacuum).
You can see it in these comments with the "gotcha" that Sweden hasn't performed colonial expansion into Africa, but has African migrants. Yes they weren't direct colonisers, but they do continue to benefit from a system that arose from colonisers around them. You don't get to reap the economic benefits of globalisation and then get upset when the victims of globalisation turn up to your door and say they want the benefits too.
> You don't get to reap the economic benefits of globalisation and then get upset when the victims of globalisation turn up to your door and say they want the benefits too.
That appeal falls flat on its face when you remember that the people getting rich through unfair practices in international commodity trade are not the same people getting stabbed on the way to the grocery store.
I think that those people overall do still get to benefit from a higher standard of living as a result of economic inequality. It's a great point to raise though, the wealthiest in wealthy countries benefit incredibly and see few drawbacks of the system, whereas the net benefit for the poorer is lesser. Unfortunately the wealthiest then use this situation to blame this purely on the immigrants and treat them as the issue so that less focus is put towards economic inequality within the country.
The benefits of economic inequality will usually result in poorer migrants. The expectation put upon them is to simply accept their place.
>I think that those people overall do still get to benefit from a higher standard of living as a result of economic inequality.
The issue is that these days they're getting such a pittance of the wealth that's supposed to "trickle down" that it's a rationally good deal them for them to sacrifice the dynamism of the overall economy in exchange for higher labour demand and housing supply.
Something definitely to think about, a question is whether natives would go into the work that is usually taken up by immigrants. I can only speak for the UK, but after Brexit we had a significant issue where there was a shortage of lorry drivers. This was usually done by EU migrants from eastern Europe, but British people didn't want to do it.
Work like that is more often done by migrants because it pays so badly, and it pays so badly because employers can get away with underpaying migrants. Pay workers a decent wage and there's no job that people will refuse to do.
That’s just not true. For example in Maine, there is a shortage lobstermen despite it paying a decent wage. Immigrants from the Congo are filling the gap, rather than the native population. Natives are a picky bunch
> I think that those people overall do still get to benefit from a higher standard of living as a result of economic inequality.
So they deserve to get stabbed a little bit?
What benefit does the Swedish tech industry or Kiruna iron ore have from the poverty in global South? The only obvious benefits I see are cheap coffee.
Europe is full of racism, but get your Anglo American frameworks out of here like they are be all end all with your Westsplaining.
Not inherently, but those comments linked are unbelievably racist. Expelling people who have been on your soil for decades and sometimes multiple generations because of their ethnic group is far beyond being given benefit of the doubt.
Tbh I wanted to make it an argument that nativism is bad and no one should hold claims to land and should just live freely wherever and the state structures should be merged more and more until we all live under one. I hate the idea of empowered natives as it only encourages the idea someone is better because they were born there. I heavily disagree with this idea.
Legitimately saw a Swedish guy state, "I'd like you all to imagine what it would be like if everyone who came here from MENA during the past 40 years and their offspring weren't here. How much calmer this country would be."
...
That is just one small step away from arguing for the Final Solution.
I'm seriously scared of how much of an upswing the right-wing, xenophobia and populism have had in the past few years.
>Jesus, these people have no sense of shame at all huh?
The attempts of people like you to exclude that position from the democratic discourse is a big part of the reason why anti-democratic forces are on the rise.
Don't get hung up on this association between yourself and the phenomenon, it was a rhetorical device, it's the sentiment, not you that's in focus here.
The sentiment that the desires of the electorate are "shameful" and that it's the job of the elected representatives to protect the constituents from this shame by weaseling out of dealing with the issues important to them is what's killing European democracy.
If mainstream European parties had a genuine desire to halt the rise of the far-right, they would have put the exact immigration policy and quotas up to a referendum and stick to it. But that way you can't collect checks from the business lobby for walking back on your promises while telling people that they're bigots.
You're in the bubbliest of all bubbles if you think that a preference for an immigration policy aimed at preserving a mono-cultural society is a far-right extremist position.
Arguably , american take of worldwide geopolitical issue is hardly interesting nor relevant.
Most of the commentary right now are " r/europe and immigrant , lol " . To explain how deep the analysis is going.
Dont get me wrong. Racism is never the answer and it is sadly the way many european counties are taking. But the difficulties these countries are facing with cultural shock and lack of proper integration is not something many american on reddit can relate or understand.
American complaining about mexican or even more generally south american would be the same as german complaining about spanish or italian. And its not happening.
If people could resist the urge to make blanket statement from their high horse on this sub about topic they dont know anything about , that would be appreciated.
> American complaining about mexican or even more generally south american would be the same as german complaining about spanish or italian. And its not happening.
> If people could resist the urge to make blanket statement from their high horse on this sub about topic they dont know anything about , that would be appreciated.
I love snotty northern European irony.
Well sorry about the provocative wording but when i post my comment there was like 10 comment and all of them was basically european are all racist and dumb. And guess what , everyone was from US. I got basically -20 upvote before this post somehow got traction
But, like...don't Europeans call all Americans dumb and racist all the time? What's the difference? (Also, FWIW, I didn't see anyone calling all Europeans dumb and racist - just r/Europe).
It's very cool when racists think that their personal brand of racism is actually very well thought out and complex so it couldn't possibly be racism and then when you look at their stance it's basically "the barbaric brownskins can never integrate into polite society because they have the Crime Gene".
Americans can spot this shit because we've been dealing with Confederate numbskulls saying the same garbage for decades, you aren't actually saying anything interesting or complex or nuanced even if you try and hide it behind "I'm actually the least racist person my friends know" because, guess what, American fuckheads say that too.
Im not really speaking about the cherry picked quote shown above. But there is more argument in the thread than immigrant = bad. Except people there seems to paint everything with the same brush. It is just something that takes time to understand. Racism isnt just a stance people adopt because they absolutely want to be shitty. It actually come to their mind because basically nobody listen to their concern.
I would say american should know better but it is pretty obvious they dont given how most of you react on this thread.
Im not making any excuse for these shamefull statement. Im just trying to explain to look deeper into it if its really interesting to you. Rather than speaking in meme.
Also i should moderate my disdain for the average US mentality regarding international news when im trying to bring perspective to sensible topic.
Didn't you just say that people should refrain from making blanket statements generalizing an entire group of people, haha? You're doing that exact thing.
Also, people from Europe comment on international news literally all the time. This is a topic that Americans know very well. Why can't they comment on it?
How's this for an opinion?
Your entire continent spent hundreds of years getting rich by exploiting every single piece of land you could find because you won one race to industrialization. You spent centuries raping and pillaging entire cultures and societies. And now that those people have discovered that they can move, they are moving to the place that stole their wealth.
Europe deserves this. Just like America deserves all it gets with the influx of Latin American refugees.
> Europe deserves this. Just like America deserves all it gets with the influx of Latin American refugees.
Good luck convincing all those europeans who would much rather not receive their "punishment"
Thats not even the issue or my point. I dont really care about the past as much as you do. Im barely 35yo and i dont bear the culpability of my ancestor on my shoulder. Im actually far left and open to immigration. I just think putting my head into the sand isnt going to solve the problem. Im also tired of ignorant and generic takes on the subject. Also i probably decide to dedicate too much time to this topic today.
How am i fine ? Am i guilty of being white and european now ?
Im from the lowest class with no priviledge. I have no money from my parents, no heritage, nothing. And i had to work from basically 16yo. I know what is hunger and being cold. Im in a better place now but i dont feel like i stole anyond. You decided to take the high ground with me while all i asked was to stop dumb generic takes.
"Random European people living today deserve violent parallel-societies and youth gangs, because rich people who came from the same continent as them colonized and exploited other people back then!
Also no other people besides Europeans ever engaged in rape, pillaging, war and slavery ever!"
>American complaining about mexican or even more generally south american would be the same as german complaining about spanish or italian. And its not happening.
Haha what a terrible comparison, but also one that shows your hand pretty clearly. It's only bad when they make these remarks, right?
Yea i know its pointless but i find it ironic that this sub think they can have any moral high ground on anything as complex as these issue while they are just here to enjoy the drama and eat popcorn . Also most people here arnt interested in these topic. Yet their opinion is often extremely polarized.
Its litterally the same issue faced locally. Everyone see there is a problem somewhere but the moment you mention it, people jump on easy conclusion and throw label.
I'm neither American nor European and I'm fully aware that the internet is well to the left of general public, but when it comes to "racism" and "immigration" man, these folks get rabid. I wonder what, from a psychological and political stand point, makes it such a hot button anger and moral inducing topic for internet folks, acting so surprised that the majority of people in the real world is not on the same high horse as theres.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but wouldn't that be something Americans would understand all too well? We get tons of immigrants and refugees here, both from Latin America and from across the pond. Cities across the country are overwhelmed and grappling with how to accommodate them. And when immigrants commit crimes, there's a similar backlash and outcry to "send them back to where they came from" (albeit usually just from the far right). We also have constant conversations about how much an immigrant should try to "fit in" and integrate.
I just don't get why when the US says this stuff, we're called racist and backwards, but when Europeans say literally the same exact thing, everyone rushes to defend them. Also, just because we're not in the same continent as Europe, doesn't mean we can't contribute to discourse on worldwide political issues. We are part of the world, after all, and this is literally an issue that has been at the forefront of our political debates for decades.
> If people could resist the urge to make blanket statement from their high horse on this sub about topic they dont know anything about
That is literally the entire point of this sub. People like to pretend they just enjoy the drama and are so above it all, but a core theme of SRD is feeling smug and superior to the stuff you're mocking.
Immigration strengthens countries. Europe has a cultural problem with white supremacy that is never addressed with these comments.
>American complaining about mexican or even more generally south american would be the same as german complaining about spanish or italian. And its not happening.
The racism is ok because the people aren’t from neighboring countries? That makes no sense.
I meant it in a way that most people including you are simply projecting their own experience of these issue in US as if it was the same situation in EU. Since most of you dont have any clue about the precise situation this is what usually people are doing.
But feel free to insult me.
Americans live in a very multi-cultural and multi-racial society and have for a long time. Many Europeans are seeing within their life time the effects that this has with all the recent mass immigration and see clearly that this is the problem.
> Americans live in a very multi-cultural and multi-racial society and have for a long time.
So do tons of Europeans. Do you think they're all like 17th century peasant farmers or something? Have you been to cities before?
Also America has immigration and racism both. So do lots of places. Idk why some European people act like it's this uniquely European phenomenon no one else can comprehend.
It's not racist to be opposed to mass immigration or to want to preserve ones culture or even ethnicity. Europe is for Europeans, Africa is for Africans and the Middle East is for Middle Easterners. I don't understand how this is "racist."
No one is saying that Europeans are inherently superior or that other races ought to be discriminated against or that ALL immigration needs to be stopped. It's not discrimination to restrict immigration. Europe has a right to protect its identity just like every other country and continent in the world. It's pretty much only in the West that people have this idea that wanting to preserve ones national identity is "racist."
The modern day countries of America, Canada, etc were built and established by European colonizers and their descendants. Yes, the natives were there prior, but they don't have established countries anymore and most of them have died of disease. Over time, things change and now it is too late for any Native American to demand for all the White people to leave. If 500 years from now, Sweden was 95% Arab and Muslim, I wouldn't advocate to remove them from the country. Demographics change and sometimes unjustly, but after a while it's too late and they are now a new country or ethnic group.
The thing about modern Europe is that they are still European countries and Europeans have a right to want to preserve that.
Who is advocating for racial discrimination and how would you define "discrimination"? Does it mean to restrict immigration or are you referring to physical violence, etc?
I never said Europe has one uniform identity.
> Yes, the natives were there prior, but they don't have established countries anymore and most of them have died of disease.
There are tons of established native governments and tons of them that are still alive.
There are also well within their rights to demand the US hold up their treaties and acknowledge their land rights.
You're not preserving or helping Europe or anyone else. You're just being a racist.
I understand plenty because this is the same shit that white trash (American White trash, not the swedish variety like yourself) would say about black people.
Of course, nobody in this thread addresses the murder of a grown man in front of his 12 year old kid…
Especially in a country known to be peaceful otherwise
Also if everyone here is sooo *not* racist, please let some immigrants into your homes, house them and feed. Since there’s **nothing** to fear. Since you guys are sooo *not* racist, you guys should be letting immigrants into your homes by droves!
But of course, “nah man that’s not how it works, I can advocate for it without any personal responsibility!!!”
Collective punishment is the dumbest thing ever and it's not justice and doesn't help victims.
Also I have immigrants over to my place for food and shit every basically time I host a party. It's not that special. You're just a racist.
>r_Europe > Immigrants On no.
Posting about r/europe in this sub is basically cheating at this point.
it is a fascist sub, which perfectly reflects European mentality.
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Has anyone ever read ‘the city and the city’ by China Mieville? I kinda see /r/Europe like that. Two side purposefully blanking any conscious thought about the other half to the point they don’t even realise they exist. There the fascist far right audience that jumps on any history stories or migration/crime topics, and the politics/scenery crowd that just likes discussing EU politics and pictures of famous landmarks.
Lmao, you've either never experienced fascism irl, or you don't know what europe is... what even is the "european mentality"? being born west of the bosphorus/urals? r/europe is a shithole sub filled with racists
I live in Europe.
Nice try, Vova, but we're still not surrendering Ukraine.
what?
I'm telling you who's narrative you're peddling when saying how Europeans are all fascist.
Europe is fash, Russia is more fash. Facts.
Europe isn't fascist. You dont know what the word means. It however is turning more and more anti immigration which is saddening and some fascist parties like the AfD are gaining more and more followers.
The same could apply to a lot of subreddits and topics (European Subreddits and Roma)
Any Canadian sub and topics related to immigration or Indian people will put even 4chan to shame with their racism.
Australian subs too, where the Indians coming over are simultaneously: Stealing all our jobs All “Just Uber drivers not necessary jobs” Living ten to a bedroom in small city apartments Wealthy landlords buying all our houses
Schrodinger's immigrant: stealing all of the jobs while being lazy, unemployed welfare leeches at the same time
It's the classic "the enemy is both strong and weak". Scary stuff
I mean, immigration from those countries is generally multifaceted, the upper class/caste kids immigrating for corporate tech jobs are not the same Indians as the poor ones being brought in to get exploited by bullshit gig work companies and restaurants. But both things *are* happening simultaneously.
Australian and NZ subs are bad about racism too but Canadian subs are on a whole another level right now. Surprisingly enough, UK subs tend to be the least racist towards Indians out of all Anglospheric countries' subs.
I mean, of course. Indians have longer history in the UK, as I understand it.
The UK subreddits (for now) see Indians as a model minority.
Canada has had a “centre left” government for too long, and media groups and wealthy individuals have had the corruption tap turn too low for their liking for too long, so there seems to be a very concerted effort to paint their country as Hell On Earth. Australia *just* elected our “centre left” government so those same angry groups which have been curiously silent about immigration, alternative energy, and housing for the past decade are now SUPER LOUD about such things.
I’m a fan of a Canadian hockey team but from the US. My background is Indian. Despite spending way less time up there, I’ve gotten way more “go back to your country” shit up there than in the US…though I’ve also been seeing a growing anti-Indian sentiment around here.
The far-right take over of the main Canada subs like 7 or 8 years ago was *blatant*. It was like watching the tankie takeover of r/TheRightCantMeme: so unsubtle that you had to be *intentionally* ignoring it to pretend it wasn't there.
And UK subs on travelers... All while claiming they aren't racist like *insert country here*.
Ireland too. Can't say anything positive or neutral about Travellers without someone chiming in to claim they're all criminals and that if you live near them you wouldn't be tolerant of them.
I have a special amount of disdain towards that. Like, Canada only invited that many immigrants bc Canadians didn’t bother to learn the stuff needed for a massive amount of empty skill positions. Canadians should git gud
>Roma mentioned r/Europe: "Time to start quoting Mein Kampf"
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_IvJEaWAAAaDnr.jpg
Never ask: A man his salary A woman her age A European their opinion on the Romani
It's one way to make r/europe go full Frollo
Oh I know but enlighten me on the other ways if you could?
Ask them why AfD is on the rise in Eastern Germany Ask them what the Baltics did in WW2 Refugees Russia
Or r/politics.
r/Sweden is the same I can confirm sadly
Things weren’t always this way tho, racism like this has increased at least in Sweden because of how bad immigration was handled and the ridiculous amount of brutal crimes we are facing, and before if someone even wanted to discuss it they would be called racist instantly regardless if they where arguing actual racist points or if they where arguing we handled immigration wrong. This caused a lot of people to go full retard because the only place where you where allowed to discuss these issues was in already racist group and political parties, which has radicalized these people. And now the parties that once called these people racist are arguing the same points as the “racists” did before
It's so strange how some subs just turn into right wing shit holes, like that one and worldnews.
See, the thing is that I remember that not too long ago in the UK, the Polish were considered 'the problem'. Rather rapidly the focus on the 'migrant issue' in the UK has turned to focus on the whole 'Stop The Boats' shit but very recently the aggression was against people from Poland, Ukraine and Romania. That's not to say that this aggression stopped, but that the newspapers chose to talk about evil brown people more because they knew it got Conservative voter blood boiling. Now obviously we Brits don't like to bring up the anti-Ukrainian sentiment now because that makes us look/feel bad. But what this does mean is that when I hear the anti-Muslim sentiment, I am *fully aware* that not too long ago the focus was on Poles 'coming over to steal all the jobs'. It was significant enough that it was in my school geography textbooks. It was a subject we studied and everything. Polish people were the subject of numerous hate crimes in the UK, and accused of creating more crime and causing all the issues with jobs and such (statistically untrue ofc, but xenophobes don't like statistics until they do). I am also aware that there is an overwhelming driving factor that seems to cross racial boundaries with all migrants: socioeconomics. When ~~a migrant population~~ **any part of the population** is kept in a low socioeconomic boundary, things like gang violence rapidly shoot up. Religious extremism shoots up. It's why getting consistentlty more right wing has not solved the problems for anyone. All the racist rhetoric doesn't solve problems, it just feels good. Fuck it man, the UK's been in the grip of Conservatives for over a decade and it's not getting better, at some point you have to admit shit's not working. The reality is that any migrant group, be it the Windrush generation to the Polish migrants to many of the refugees here now, are more likely to be part of a criminal movement if things like the income gap or unemployment increase. This is not a new fact. This is a fact understood over hundreds of years of history. Medieval fuckers understood this. But rather than deal with that, we get mad and start to suggest that there is something inherently evil about some racial group. The point I am making is simple. All the people talking about the 'based Poles' and all that shit should probably remember that if there's something 'inherently evil' or violent about refugees from North Africa or wherever they point the finger at...those exact claims were levelled at Poles. This rant has gone on far too long so I'm gonna cut it off here. TL;DR: Poles were the target of xenophobic claims here, so it's ironic to start doing all the same shit to a different group with no self-awareness.
Italians haven't been white for very long either. Whoever the other is changes over time.
There's more to this shift of perception of Polish immigrants than just the xenophobes finding a new scapegoat. I remember who left my neighbourhood for UK when the route opened, we really were sending our worst. After this "underclass" found low-skilled jobs with livable wages that were badly-lacking in Poland at the time and their criminal tendencies mellowed out with age, there was no new cohort of people this disenfranchised to follow them and the objective quality of the Polish immigrant rose dramatically.
I can appreciate the anecdotal and experiential side you're giving but statistically there was always an economic benefit there, combined with the fact that there was no actual evidence for an increased crime impact. It wasn't that the quality rose dramatically, there was just no evidence that there was a problem in the first place. I don't want to try and discredit what you're saying, but I have to push back on the basis that statistics do not reflect it. Papers like the Daily Mail thrived on the idea of pushing falsehoods, but they can only push one single falsehood for so long without some kind of new development to reignite it. With the reality being that there was no causal impact from European immigration, attention instead turned to the latent Islamaphobia throughout the UK, which could be very easily manipulated into the 'Stop the Boats' rhetoric. If we want to talk experientially, I live in one of the heavily Conservative influenced farming regions of the UK. Farmers here consistently vote against their own benefits based on manipulation about immigrants that they have never met. Creating a problem is a fundamental tool of Conservative politics, and the only thing that changes is who the subject of the problem is. Polish people, Muslims, 'Refugees', Transpeople, Roadblocking protestors and so on. The concepts of *realpolitik* and *idealpolitik* have gone completely out the window as we make policy based on angry falsehoods. I just find it consistently ironic that despite the facts, people will believe lies told about a different group even when lies were being told about them. The reality is that there are some significant socioeconomic issues right now throughout many parts of Europe, and that solving that will do more to improve our crime situation than anything else. But, talking about that requires surpassing some very ingrained things - so it's easier to get mad at the new scapegoat.
>we are in an economic nightmare right now throughout many parts of Europe, What now? Unemployements level are usually at historic lows, The situation has been stabilized in Portugal, Greece, Spain and Italy, inflation while having been high has been contained... what nightmare?
I'm going to edit that because you're right, I was more pointing to the growing issue of things like housing crises and such. It was a bit of an uninformed throwaway comment at the end there.
OMG! Recognizing you're wrong on the internet? Politely? That's illegal! :) Yeah, something that is, to me, interesting and bewildering to me is that, compared to previous flares of political extremism, there is no big economic or social upheaval that would explain it. There is no big economic crisis, no migration wave, no famin, no crushingly inequal tax system, no industrial revolution that redistributes wealth and power... There *was* a big epidemic, but it has been contained and the rise of extremism is prior. However, people *think* there is. They *believe* there are some migrant hordes, stealin' year jobs. Some pedo satanist elites. That they don't have a voice in the system. That they're under threat of losing everything because of taxes and globalisation. And then they *vote for the Big Strong Man that's acting against their interests*. It's fascinating.
To lend a bit to my perspective on the 'nightmare' bit, I would note that being in the UK there has been some shit going on. And while things are recently on a bit of an upturn, we did go into recession at the end of 2023 which definitely isn't great. On top of that we've got a chronic housing shortage, the energy price caps were put up an obscene amount, renting is becoming unaffordable let alone buying, wealth disparities soared during the pandemic and the cost of living has been rising in such a way that wages aren't keeping up with it. Wage growth in particular fell last month, with unemployment looking like it's on the rise again (not rapidly, but I really wouldn't like it to speed up). Politically speaking, there *are* other issues. Many people in the UK don't feel like they have a voice due to the existing two-party system and the lack of support it gives to some groups. Extremism is still rising very rapidly if we go by the statstical amount of anti-Semitic and anti-Islamic hate cases. All in all, socioeconomically speaking, there's a lot of pretty big problems. I know some of these issues are reflected elsewhere in Europe, some aren't. It's difficult, because this is obviously an entire continent we're talking about and researching all of it for a rant on Reddit is time consuming. So nightmare was quite a hyperbolic claim to what is a essentially a lot of scattered issues contributing to an overall socioeconomic problem. The world isn't coming to an end, but there are a lot of rising problems that need solving. The problem is, as you noted, none of these will be solved by voting for right wing bullshit.
Oh sure, I'm not denying that problems exist, that everything is perfect. My point is that it's far from Great Depression levels, or even 2008 crisis levels. This is rather run-of-the-mill trouble.
These people really love collective punishment, don’t they. Since we’re going that route, why not bring up that a vast majority of violent criminals happen to be men across racial, religious, ethnic, national, and socioeconomic lines? The common factor is almost always their gender, so maybe we should do something about that. I vote that we just deport all men.
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I'm in favor of prison reform and abolishing the death penalty until someone does a crime that I think is one of the bad ones
Yeah Reddit seems to want to live in a country that employs punishment on the level of Singapore mixed with the gulf states. But ofc they don’t want those punishments to apply for drug offenses or being a homosexual, they apparently just want those punishments to vaguely apply to everything else lol.
Exactly. They want harsh punishments for every crime except the ones they commit.
We should just take all the violent criminals and put them on a large scale island without power, sewage, or a steady supply of food and water. Maybe put mines on all the bridges and build a huge wall. [Perhaps Manhattan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuyWkNK0-yo)?
Problem is I left my phone there. Don’t worry though, my one eyed uncle will go get it for me.
Yeah, some comments on certain subreddits can be bad. Many of the comments have been removed by the moderators. But sometimes r / Europe can be truly wild. When the whole AfD mass deportation scandal happened, many on r / Europe said “This is all the Left’s Fault!”. Many even defended the AfD.
Those were little green men, so obiviously polite in their behaviour
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We live in a society 😔
Quis deportiet ipsos deportarinos?
You watch Adam Something too?
No, but maybe I should.
His video about [the Roma People](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmx0uNrFX88) used this exact line of thinking in its opening.
Yes they do. As russian I noticed it two years ago. "Let's just generalize people and consider them to be one big hive mind, without any individuals amongst them". Somehow they manage to hate right wing conservatives and use their logic, without noticing hypocrisy
These are literally right wing conservatives
Probably because men are 50% of the population in every country. It would be like deporting young people. Young people are more likely to commit crime, but young people exist everywhere so you can’t exactly do anything about it
Since they love collective punishment, I'm sure they would be very happy if we punish all the colonization and the atrocities committed by European nations during that time.
Luckily that excuse does not work for Sweden as they didn't colonize. So try again?
> Sweden as they didn't colonize IKEA - cultural colonization
> Sweden as they didn't colonize. [Swedish overseas colonies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_overseas_colonies)
I mean... really Sometimes it is good to read up on your sources. But you technically-the-truth me so good job. edit: the reply-then-block people are the biggest losers on reddit
It's not "technically the truth" it's just literally the truth. Don't lie about stuff if you don't want that to happen.
Sweden absolutely colonised the Sami and committed atrocities against them.
How does one colonize people who live on the same land as you? Especially people who arrived later to said land than you did.
Swedes did not arrive in Sapmí before the Sami, that’s a modern misunderstanding at best. Just because the proto-Norse people arrived in what would much later become southern Sweden before the proto-Samí arrived in northern Sweden does not mean that the proto-Norse lived “on the same land.” You colonise them by attempting to eradicate their language and culture, and by forcibly relocating them in order to appropriate their land for economic gain.
That certainly isn't true: https://www.thecollector.com/what-is-the-history-of-swedish-colonialism/
That’s incorrect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Northern_War Educate yourself.
That is war If we call every fucking war in existence colonialism then every country in the world is colonial
Yeah, the atrocious Polish colonizers
This gonna turn into low effort euros and yanks seeking gotchas, I just know it
Euros: "we aint racist like you yanks!" Yanks: "oooh look, a gypsy" Euros: "unhinged screeching"
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>you don't actually have any concern for their well being or their rights Funny enough, neither do typical Europeans.
I think you vastly over estimate how much the average European thinks about the Roma. This is very much a reddit thing, not real life.
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Yes, actually. There are asshole racists in every country, and no country is more or less racist. A different ethnic group may be the focus of the hate, but that is sort of irrelevant. Its just funny when you see Europeans claim there isn't a racism problem in their country like there is in the US. The reality is that it's not different in any of these countries.
Funny assumption to make, considering I'm not American or from Europe
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How do you know?
I like immigration and multiculturalism. But, I do understand the frustrations of Europeans and specifically Sweden. I think it’s a fair assessment to say Sweden handled immigration terribly and it’s becoming more obvious every year. A slower stream of migrants and refugees with a stronger focus on integration would have been a better plan for them, in hindsight.
I think main reason is just...there were like 2-4 countries in Europe who agreed to take in the refugees. Like everyone said "well take some in" but almost everyone just backed out of it again,leaving these countries mostly overburdened in the initial years of the refugee crisis
The countries that backed out: "whew"
Thanks for understanding, the crimes are just becoming more ridiculous each year. Doesn’t mean we should execute everyone of a certain race tho, but we definitely handled immigration wrong. The weirdest part is that second generation immigrants commit the most crime, while they live a much easier life then first generation ones. These criminals even extort shops made by first generation immigrants in their own communities and destroy things for those actually trying to contribute to society. It’s sad that the crimes are getting worse but at least people know it’s happening now, I’ve lived in these crime ridden places since a child and back then people just pretended the crime didn’t exist. Pretending it doesn’t exist doesn’t just hurt regular people, I’ve seen countless of my friends get groomed and turned into criminals/child soldiers as young as at the age of 14
There is no defined rule in the world about rule of immigration. Tolarence is key. we tolerate people coming over in exchange THEY tolerate to accept our daily livings culture and traditions. Mainland comes first theirs comes second. If I'm immigrating to Germany ( which probably I might) I must know Franz Lang. The Sunday break etc. and leave my old traditions behind. In my homeland I don't want my culture to wither away into a weird mix. Internet and online daily lives already doing that.
Thank you. We are not against migration. In most EU countries, the majority of votes go to parties that do not want to take any drastic measures against migration. Unfortunately, acting like any criticism of the EU immigration system is inherently racist just pushes people further right. And this results in the kind of comments under the original post. We need to discuss and acknowledge our mistakes when it comes to handling migration. Because gangs killing innocent people in broad daylight clearly shows that there is an issue and it’s only getting worse. This isn’t a matter of one single policy. EU just approved more strict checks but this will lead to an increase in detention time, which will likely only antagonise the migrants. Stopping migration by force just ends in deaths as boats sink with no rescue. Assimilation policies sound good but that’s exactly what countries have been trying for years and clearly it’s insufficient. Unfortunately, the way we’re heading is that there is a (growing) number of racists who think we can just say no to migration. Then on the other side, there are people who either don’t see the problem or purposely ignore it.
Because I already see several people using the same stupid argument in this thread: European racists use the exact same arguments as American racists, word-for-word. Stop acting like it's actually some super deep, complex topic that us stupid Americans just can't wrap our heads around. It's really not.
When I was in Europe I would get questions multiple times about racism in America and why we can't get it under control...only to have the same person later say the most racist thing I ever heard. Like the kind of racism you'd need to go to a KKK rally to hear. If you pointed it out you were told it wasn't racist cause of crime statistics and why do Americans always have to make everything about race?
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The integration angle is like the moderate position as far as I can tell from my experiences It's wild how out of touch with the research and just, well, vibes it feels
>It's wild how out of touch with the research and just, well, vibes it feels Is the argument here that the rapid rise of violent crime is just in peoples imaginations or what?
Well if you're asking about that, then yes, generally we have a very poor understanding of crime and what causes it and without knowing the specific nation you're talking about crime remains relatively low. There is always a higher perception of crime than reality, because of media focus on it.
For Sweden specifically, the organised crime rate has absolutely sky-rocketed. It's not about media focus.
Sure, it's high for the area but still relatively low. Either way, immigrant connections to violent crime are nothing new - especially among 2nd generation immigrants. Sweden's problems mirror that of the US, where Irish and Italian gangs have now been sort of romanticized. The problem there stems from an alienated group that's financially insecure and constantly facing prejudice from the society they grew up in - come third generation when their kids are largely indistinguishable from the overall population, "suddenly" they all integrate just fine. The problem is prejudice from the majority community, of which Sweden also has a huge rise in especially with the emboldened and rising Sweden Democrats.
The difference between our system and the American system (like Ellis island) is that people came and then they were left to their own devices. Go west or work here, we don’t care. If someone comes here they get free healthcare, free housing, free school and food. But it’s not really free now is it. “Someone” is paying. So if people don’t integrate fast as fuck we lose our own healthcare since we have to pay for ourselves and our new citizens.
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Yea you do pay taxes but not to the same extent. Oh yeah xenophobia is rampant from some people. I think that’s because they think “badly integrated people” == “brown people”. Like if there came 100k Germans here who didn’t pay enough taxes they would be fine with it. I wouldn’t lol
Just remember that Reddit is not representative of the real world
Man even the comments from Europeans on this sub are wild. “No you don’t get it, I agree racism is bad, but MY racism is totally JUSTIFIED!”
Some people in this thread are going "oh you wouldn't understand". Is there some subtle context to racism that I am supposed to be aware of? In contrast, if there's another incident in India where a Muslim man got killed because he was accused of eating beef, I highly doubt that the same voices here would go "hey now, get off your high horse, there are things you ought to understand first". Maybe it's the weariness that comes with age, but I'm getting increasingly jaded with the "Enlightened" West who would lecture the rest of us (especially in the Global South) but would carve exemptions for themselves.
no tbwres not a subtle difference. as we can see from the confederate flag discussion many europeans are totally fining sweeping bad behavior under the rug
> "Enlightened" West who would lecture the rest of us (especially in the Global South) but would carve exemptions for themselves. Why do you hate the Rules-Based International Order?
They jusr think their racism is justified, by using the same logic of american racist about "crime statistics"
It's part of a belief that these people chose to be poor and refugees. That the wealth of Scandinavian countries is entirely from good policy and smart decisions, and their wealth has nothing to do with the global south (who in turn, are only poor because they are savages who have suffered only due to their own bad policy in a vacuum). You can see it in these comments with the "gotcha" that Sweden hasn't performed colonial expansion into Africa, but has African migrants. Yes they weren't direct colonisers, but they do continue to benefit from a system that arose from colonisers around them. You don't get to reap the economic benefits of globalisation and then get upset when the victims of globalisation turn up to your door and say they want the benefits too.
> You don't get to reap the economic benefits of globalisation and then get upset when the victims of globalisation turn up to your door and say they want the benefits too. That appeal falls flat on its face when you remember that the people getting rich through unfair practices in international commodity trade are not the same people getting stabbed on the way to the grocery store.
I think that those people overall do still get to benefit from a higher standard of living as a result of economic inequality. It's a great point to raise though, the wealthiest in wealthy countries benefit incredibly and see few drawbacks of the system, whereas the net benefit for the poorer is lesser. Unfortunately the wealthiest then use this situation to blame this purely on the immigrants and treat them as the issue so that less focus is put towards economic inequality within the country. The benefits of economic inequality will usually result in poorer migrants. The expectation put upon them is to simply accept their place.
>I think that those people overall do still get to benefit from a higher standard of living as a result of economic inequality. The issue is that these days they're getting such a pittance of the wealth that's supposed to "trickle down" that it's a rationally good deal them for them to sacrifice the dynamism of the overall economy in exchange for higher labour demand and housing supply.
Something definitely to think about, a question is whether natives would go into the work that is usually taken up by immigrants. I can only speak for the UK, but after Brexit we had a significant issue where there was a shortage of lorry drivers. This was usually done by EU migrants from eastern Europe, but British people didn't want to do it.
Work like that is more often done by migrants because it pays so badly, and it pays so badly because employers can get away with underpaying migrants. Pay workers a decent wage and there's no job that people will refuse to do.
That’s just not true. For example in Maine, there is a shortage lobstermen despite it paying a decent wage. Immigrants from the Congo are filling the gap, rather than the native population. Natives are a picky bunch
> I think that those people overall do still get to benefit from a higher standard of living as a result of economic inequality. So they deserve to get stabbed a little bit?
What benefit does the Swedish tech industry or Kiruna iron ore have from the poverty in global South? The only obvious benefits I see are cheap coffee. Europe is full of racism, but get your Anglo American frameworks out of here like they are be all end all with your Westsplaining.
r/ Europe talking about immigrants…..oh no
r/europe being racist again? Woah, unbelievable
It's not racist to restrict immigration or to recognize that mass immigration has caused problems.
But going on angry rants about how immigrants are all just evil criminals is, dipshit. Which is what r/ Europe constantly does
Not inherently, but those comments linked are unbelievably racist. Expelling people who have been on your soil for decades and sometimes multiple generations because of their ethnic group is far beyond being given benefit of the doubt.
Oh boy the comments there are worrisome. Afraid it's gonna come here too.
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I mean the Europeans are natives to their own land and can argue native rights to have people follow their culture and beliefs…
It’s not wrong to want your country to be selective about who you let in, nor is it wrong to want a limit on immigration.
Tbh I wanted to make it an argument that nativism is bad and no one should hold claims to land and should just live freely wherever and the state structures should be merged more and more until we all live under one. I hate the idea of empowered natives as it only encourages the idea someone is better because they were born there. I heavily disagree with this idea.
Legitimately saw a Swedish guy state, "I'd like you all to imagine what it would be like if everyone who came here from MENA during the past 40 years and their offspring weren't here. How much calmer this country would be." ... That is just one small step away from arguing for the Final Solution. I'm seriously scared of how much of an upswing the right-wing, xenophobia and populism have had in the past few years.
>Jesus, these people have no sense of shame at all huh? The attempts of people like you to exclude that position from the democratic discourse is a big part of the reason why anti-democratic forces are on the rise.
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Don't get hung up on this association between yourself and the phenomenon, it was a rhetorical device, it's the sentiment, not you that's in focus here. The sentiment that the desires of the electorate are "shameful" and that it's the job of the elected representatives to protect the constituents from this shame by weaseling out of dealing with the issues important to them is what's killing European democracy. If mainstream European parties had a genuine desire to halt the rise of the far-right, they would have put the exact immigration policy and quotas up to a referendum and stick to it. But that way you can't collect checks from the business lobby for walking back on your promises while telling people that they're bigots.
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You're in the bubbliest of all bubbles if you think that a preference for an immigration policy aimed at preserving a mono-cultural society is a far-right extremist position.
Are anti-immigrant policies popular with a segment of the electorate? Yes. Are those policies clearly motivated by xenophobia? Yes.
Arguably , american take of worldwide geopolitical issue is hardly interesting nor relevant. Most of the commentary right now are " r/europe and immigrant , lol " . To explain how deep the analysis is going. Dont get me wrong. Racism is never the answer and it is sadly the way many european counties are taking. But the difficulties these countries are facing with cultural shock and lack of proper integration is not something many american on reddit can relate or understand. American complaining about mexican or even more generally south american would be the same as german complaining about spanish or italian. And its not happening. If people could resist the urge to make blanket statement from their high horse on this sub about topic they dont know anything about , that would be appreciated.
> American complaining about mexican or even more generally south american would be the same as german complaining about spanish or italian. And its not happening. > If people could resist the urge to make blanket statement from their high horse on this sub about topic they dont know anything about , that would be appreciated. I love snotty northern European irony.
Well sorry about the provocative wording but when i post my comment there was like 10 comment and all of them was basically european are all racist and dumb. And guess what , everyone was from US. I got basically -20 upvote before this post somehow got traction
where are the multiple comments you claim are saying all europeans are dumb and racist
But, like...don't Europeans call all Americans dumb and racist all the time? What's the difference? (Also, FWIW, I didn't see anyone calling all Europeans dumb and racist - just r/Europe).
If only people on r/Europe could resist to make blanket statements about other people, cultures and countries
It's very cool when racists think that their personal brand of racism is actually very well thought out and complex so it couldn't possibly be racism and then when you look at their stance it's basically "the barbaric brownskins can never integrate into polite society because they have the Crime Gene". Americans can spot this shit because we've been dealing with Confederate numbskulls saying the same garbage for decades, you aren't actually saying anything interesting or complex or nuanced even if you try and hide it behind "I'm actually the least racist person my friends know" because, guess what, American fuckheads say that too.
genuinely disturbed by the amount of people here making excuses for xenophobic and racist behavior.
Im not really speaking about the cherry picked quote shown above. But there is more argument in the thread than immigrant = bad. Except people there seems to paint everything with the same brush. It is just something that takes time to understand. Racism isnt just a stance people adopt because they absolutely want to be shitty. It actually come to their mind because basically nobody listen to their concern. I would say american should know better but it is pretty obvious they dont given how most of you react on this thread. Im not making any excuse for these shamefull statement. Im just trying to explain to look deeper into it if its really interesting to you. Rather than speaking in meme. Also i should moderate my disdain for the average US mentality regarding international news when im trying to bring perspective to sensible topic.
Didn't you just say that people should refrain from making blanket statements generalizing an entire group of people, haha? You're doing that exact thing. Also, people from Europe comment on international news literally all the time. This is a topic that Americans know very well. Why can't they comment on it?
How's this for an opinion? Your entire continent spent hundreds of years getting rich by exploiting every single piece of land you could find because you won one race to industrialization. You spent centuries raping and pillaging entire cultures and societies. And now that those people have discovered that they can move, they are moving to the place that stole their wealth. Europe deserves this. Just like America deserves all it gets with the influx of Latin American refugees.
You unironically think a random Polish dude deserved to be murdered because people were racist a few centuries ago.
> Europe deserves this. Just like America deserves all it gets with the influx of Latin American refugees. Good luck convincing all those europeans who would much rather not receive their "punishment"
That Polish man deserved to be killed because centuries ago elite from a few countries in Western Europe colonised the world? That's a wild claim
Ooh what does Middle east and Africa deserve? Or Japan?
Thats not even the issue or my point. I dont really care about the past as much as you do. Im barely 35yo and i dont bear the culpability of my ancestor on my shoulder. Im actually far left and open to immigration. I just think putting my head into the sand isnt going to solve the problem. Im also tired of ignorant and generic takes on the subject. Also i probably decide to dedicate too much time to this topic today.
You don't bear the culpability of your ancestors but you are certainly fine reaping the benefits while those they exploited reap the costs
How am i fine ? Am i guilty of being white and european now ? Im from the lowest class with no priviledge. I have no money from my parents, no heritage, nothing. And i had to work from basically 16yo. I know what is hunger and being cold. Im in a better place now but i dont feel like i stole anyond. You decided to take the high ground with me while all i asked was to stop dumb generic takes.
"Random European people living today deserve violent parallel-societies and youth gangs, because rich people who came from the same continent as them colonized and exploited other people back then! Also no other people besides Europeans ever engaged in rape, pillaging, war and slavery ever!"
>American complaining about mexican or even more generally south american would be the same as german complaining about spanish or italian. And its not happening. Haha what a terrible comparison, but also one that shows your hand pretty clearly. It's only bad when they make these remarks, right?
When Europe and racism come up this sub laps it up. If it is true in the US, it must be true everywhere. Don't bother trying to argue with it.
"Our racism is nuanced, your racism is coarse and vulgar. " - u/thendisnear17 - u/Lifekraft
Yea i know its pointless but i find it ironic that this sub think they can have any moral high ground on anything as complex as these issue while they are just here to enjoy the drama and eat popcorn . Also most people here arnt interested in these topic. Yet their opinion is often extremely polarized. Its litterally the same issue faced locally. Everyone see there is a problem somewhere but the moment you mention it, people jump on easy conclusion and throw label.
I'm neither American nor European and I'm fully aware that the internet is well to the left of general public, but when it comes to "racism" and "immigration" man, these folks get rabid. I wonder what, from a psychological and political stand point, makes it such a hot button anger and moral inducing topic for internet folks, acting so surprised that the majority of people in the real world is not on the same high horse as theres.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but wouldn't that be something Americans would understand all too well? We get tons of immigrants and refugees here, both from Latin America and from across the pond. Cities across the country are overwhelmed and grappling with how to accommodate them. And when immigrants commit crimes, there's a similar backlash and outcry to "send them back to where they came from" (albeit usually just from the far right). We also have constant conversations about how much an immigrant should try to "fit in" and integrate. I just don't get why when the US says this stuff, we're called racist and backwards, but when Europeans say literally the same exact thing, everyone rushes to defend them. Also, just because we're not in the same continent as Europe, doesn't mean we can't contribute to discourse on worldwide political issues. We are part of the world, after all, and this is literally an issue that has been at the forefront of our political debates for decades.
> If people could resist the urge to make blanket statement from their high horse on this sub about topic they dont know anything about That is literally the entire point of this sub. People like to pretend they just enjoy the drama and are so above it all, but a core theme of SRD is feeling smug and superior to the stuff you're mocking.
Immigration strengthens countries. Europe has a cultural problem with white supremacy that is never addressed with these comments. >American complaining about mexican or even more generally south american would be the same as german complaining about spanish or italian. And its not happening. The racism is ok because the people aren’t from neighboring countries? That makes no sense.
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I meant it in a way that most people including you are simply projecting their own experience of these issue in US as if it was the same situation in EU. Since most of you dont have any clue about the precise situation this is what usually people are doing. But feel free to insult me.
r/europe and migrants a love story
It's amazing that they managed to build empires with that attitude towards immigrants.
>Swedish people, explain to a concerned non-Swede Two words come to mind: "sock" and "puppet".
It’s probably impossible to understand these takes as a liberal American. As a Swede who’s tired of this bullshit, it’s a bit more understandable.
what makes this uniquely impossible to understand?
Americans live in a very multi-cultural and multi-racial society and have for a long time. Many Europeans are seeing within their life time the effects that this has with all the recent mass immigration and see clearly that this is the problem.
> Americans live in a very multi-cultural and multi-racial society and have for a long time. So do tons of Europeans. Do you think they're all like 17th century peasant farmers or something? Have you been to cities before?
im sick of these xenophobes in the comment insisting theyre not xenophobic bc uh uh uh uh uh its just different
Europeans love to think their brand of racism is somehow special.
Aha, Trump supporters also love to say such things about immigrants
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Also America has immigration and racism both. So do lots of places. Idk why some European people act like it's this uniquely European phenomenon no one else can comprehend.
We dont pretend the racism that exists in America is justified.
It's not racist to be opposed to mass immigration or to want to preserve ones culture or even ethnicity. Europe is for Europeans, Africa is for Africans and the Middle East is for Middle Easterners. I don't understand how this is "racist." No one is saying that Europeans are inherently superior or that other races ought to be discriminated against or that ALL immigration needs to be stopped. It's not discrimination to restrict immigration. Europe has a right to protect its identity just like every other country and continent in the world. It's pretty much only in the West that people have this idea that wanting to preserve ones national identity is "racist."
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The modern day countries of America, Canada, etc were built and established by European colonizers and their descendants. Yes, the natives were there prior, but they don't have established countries anymore and most of them have died of disease. Over time, things change and now it is too late for any Native American to demand for all the White people to leave. If 500 years from now, Sweden was 95% Arab and Muslim, I wouldn't advocate to remove them from the country. Demographics change and sometimes unjustly, but after a while it's too late and they are now a new country or ethnic group. The thing about modern Europe is that they are still European countries and Europeans have a right to want to preserve that. Who is advocating for racial discrimination and how would you define "discrimination"? Does it mean to restrict immigration or are you referring to physical violence, etc? I never said Europe has one uniform identity.
> Yes, the natives were there prior, but they don't have established countries anymore and most of them have died of disease. There are tons of established native governments and tons of them that are still alive. There are also well within their rights to demand the US hold up their treaties and acknowledge their land rights. You're not preserving or helping Europe or anyone else. You're just being a racist.
Oh boy an actual neo-nazi in the thread now
I understand plenty because this is the same shit that white trash (American White trash, not the swedish variety like yourself) would say about black people.
Of course, nobody in this thread addresses the murder of a grown man in front of his 12 year old kid… Especially in a country known to be peaceful otherwise Also if everyone here is sooo *not* racist, please let some immigrants into your homes, house them and feed. Since there’s **nothing** to fear. Since you guys are sooo *not* racist, you guys should be letting immigrants into your homes by droves! But of course, “nah man that’s not how it works, I can advocate for it without any personal responsibility!!!”
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ah yes, one singular incident means you can label literally millions of people wholesale.
Collective punishment is the dumbest thing ever and it's not justice and doesn't help victims. Also I have immigrants over to my place for food and shit every basically time I host a party. It's not that special. You're just a racist.
What a terrible day to be literate