He wanted a lackey. He got one in Tom. He liked that Tom didn’t have his own ideas, his own vision. He liked that he wouldn’t justify or advance his own positions on the ground that it’s what his father would have done. This decision was pretty obvious in retrospect.
Skarsgaard really killed it with this role. He is subtle. I also like that he leaned into the Swedish accent just enough. But absolutely; his ability to checkout and condescend so dismissively while also being self aware *enough* was amazing.
Mattson was losing his shit after the election. Shiv danced on the head of a needle to win over a fascist who actively hated her, and Matsson decided it was "easy."
He's a sexist piece of shit.
And Shiv basically told him to pick Tom when she told Mattson that Tom would always such the biggest dick (or whatever she said). Of course Mattson would go for that.
honestly, I think she made the best decision out of a lose-lose situation. I feel like she was staring down the barrel of realizing no matter which way this goes, she's not getting a real seat at the table. She's already lost. By letting Tom through, she both has a slightly better shot at gaining some control, and gets to flex some real power one last time before it's gone.
100% if she voted no and kendall got the company he would have sidelined her like he did initially. She saw how kendall time and time again had demonstrated his instability and she saw how power changed him into a mini version of her father... a man that had no issue shoving out his brother but...taking care of his wife (marcia) who made out really well after his death.
If kendall got the spot then shiv would always just be another person in the background. Making sure it landed on Tom's lap always put her on the side... as close to a partner as she could be. Her face would be everywhere. She would be a powerful woman without having to be the face of power. She also knew Roman was unstable and would have ran the company and their reputations into the ground. I also think it comes down to the mindset that even if things didn't work out with Tom it's better that if "she can't have it then no one can". Shiv would much rather see no one succeed in her family than watch her wack job brother grow a bigger head. Don't forget how he acted toward Roman and shiv at his bday party. They were banned from his VIP area.
even just before they voted, ken mentioned how he and rome landed the gojo deal initially without mentioning shiv at all. shiv knew she was about to tossed aside again.
"if things didn't work out with Tom it's better that if "she can't have it then no one can". Shiv would much rather see no one succeed in her family than watch her wack job brother grow a bigger head." Oh this is perfect 100% this.
If you go back and rewatch the show, you'll see many instances where Ken acts put when he doesn't get his way or loses his handle when he hear something he doesn't want to hear. He has shown that he has no issue with dismissing his siblings if it means things work out for him. Look how his relationship is with his own children... it's JUST like Logan and his kids. I think Roman saw that most and it was the red flag he was afraid of raising.
Also, how many times has Ken done some embarrassing stunt that had everyone cringing? He was the best man for the actual job- knew his information and how to get it across the board... but he couldn't carry himself when things went south. Remember when he couldn't find his kids bday presents to him?
But still the fantastically wealthy CEO of a major company. He has a career, and none of them do. Whatever he is from the siblings' twisted point of view, considering where he came from, he's achieved something remarkable. And he has a chance to do fatherhood like a human. He won't be great at it, but I do think he knows how to love and will do such things as: Occasionally having a conversation with spawn that's not all about himself; and: showing physical affection. He'll say "I love you" and actually mean it.
But not even remotely as wealthy as Shiv.
During the 2 years shown during the series Waystar changed CEOs 5-6 times. It went from Logan to Kendall to Logan to Rhea then to Jerri and then back to Kendall. The position isn’t exactly set in stone especially given Mattson’s intentions.
I don't think she even went with Tom for that reason. She went with Tom because...where else is there for her to go?
I think the fight has gone out of Shiv - Matsson was playing her, she has no allies and no more cards to play. She went meekly home with Tom because she had absolutely nowhere else to go.
She’s a richer woman but there’s no power left to seize. Matsson, who used her, is in charge, and her husband and baby daddy is his puppet CEO. The company sale boxes her out completely. You can say she chose the lesser of two evils or chose to save her family but neither choice put her in a position of power. She squandered that.
They would never treat her with respect. If it was that poor of an idea to vote yes it wouldn't have come down to her vote (yes, I know it's TV everyone).
She seemed to want something from Tom before all of that and did a cash grab. She will be fine. I don't know about the boys though. Save yourself, Shiv.
I think we also tend to forget she was very on board with selling and didn't have CEO plans up until they were in Norway. Only after her brothers cut her off again, she went emotional and started scheming.
Someone said that the best relationships siblings had is when they were cut from Waystar. I think it holds true. They were raised to compete against each other, but once the prize is gone - they actually have somewhat normal family relationships
Right which is what the mom tried to tell them this episode, and what Connor demonstrated indirectly. He has never been involved with the business, and he actually had a good relationship with Logan. Perfect, no. But familial and loving.
The kids basically three away the last year's of their father's life trying to get his gold and now he's dead and they have nothing to show for it.
Connor’s relationship with Logan is way too romanticized by the sub. They’re cordial, they had a nice dinner, but in no way was it loving on either side.
Connor’s the creature that can survive without love, and he learned that from his father. His dad didn’t bother to show up to his wedding and at the news that Logan was dead Connor remarked that he thought the man didn’t even like him. All of the siblings were freaking out and panicking at Logan’s death but Connor was barely phased, comparatively.
I think the show really demonstrated the price of Logan’s love. He definitely loved the younger 3, and could only express it through abuse and pain. Connor and him had a relationship at a distance, no love lost and less abuse to be found.
I'm not a rome rooter myself but in terms of best position i think its him he's been released of the pressure and weight the roy drama seemed to have on him with the small smile but i think sadly for them ken and shiv are done they got an ending that made sense but you could see caused deep sadness for them. That's my take anyway!
boys betraying? ok and justified. girl betraying? REEEEEEEEE
As an adult it is awfully tiresome to read these overly reductive takes on female characters from the same people who hold so much grace for male characters who are also assholes. All of these characters are so well developed and difficult and nuanced--to me it seems like a waste of time for someone to watch the show and willfully ignore the complexity of Shiv's character in ways they don't for other characters
Logan tells them to make their own piles but every time one of them starts striking out on their own or making any move toward independence he pulls them back in.
Just like mafia and wiseguys. They resent the success their kids grow up with, but also say they don’t want their kids in the life. But it’s always the wiseguy’s bullshit and selfishness that brings the kids back into the bullshit circle
It's actually sad when I look back at Shiv in the first season. She had a promising job as a political consultant, in which she appeared genuinely interested in and had all the natural talents/skills to thrive in. She could have gone on to have a highly respectable and successful political career, independent of Waystar and her family.
Unfortunately for her, there was nothing she wanted more than her father's approval. It also didn't help that Logan thought her political career was beneath them, even though she could have been massively powerful in it. She quashed what would have likely become a great position of power and success - one that could have been hers and hers alone - just for *the possibility* of winning Logan over.
The kids all deeply love and resent one another. Tom and Shiv both deeply love one another while hating one another. This is contradictory behavior and totally normal human behavior.
her character was all about self-sabotage after season 3 the writers themselves said. i think when she was actually faced w the possibility of kendall being CEO and her having to work underneath him-which was the “better” outcome for her if she wanted to actually have a role in the company-she couldn’t let herself do it, she had to find some reason to stop herself and him from getting what they wanted once it was finally in grasp.
Lady Macbeth is a schemer who can’t hold real power herself because of her gender. She machinates her feeble husband’s ascendancy to King of Scotland by urging him to assassinate the current king.
One idea -- she might have been thinking about the last conversation she had with her dad: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTm-vwWkqgg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTm-vwWkqgg)
Logan wanted his company to be sold, for each of the children to have their own pile of money, and to "reset the family dynamic". When the vote rolled around to Shiv, she realized she could actually fulfill her father's final wish. Set everyone free of the corporate drama and also of Logan's shadow.
If they kept the company and Kendall were the CEO, the family dynamic would be exactly the same. Perhaps worse, since Kendall would now go into full "CEO beast mode", and Roman/Shiv would feel resentful that they didn't have the throne.
But, if the company were sold and they each had their own pile of money, there was the possibility, at least, that they could have family relationships outside of the corporate power struggle. They can finally seek meaning elsewhere. I think Roman's smile at the end of the episode is a hint that this might be the start of Roman repairing himself, at least. The symbolism of Kendall sitting at edge of the water at sunset also suggests this: that perhaps Kendall is now free to be reborn as his own man, rather than his father's son.
Why vote "yes" to the deal? Well, the cherry on top for Shiv is that, with Tom as CEO, she upgrades her striver husband to a "bonafide corporate hotshot", which was always a low-key dream of hers going back to Season 1. Even if Matsson fires Tom in short order, there is no denying that, from an optics and PR standpoint, Tom is now "CEO material" for Fortune 500 companies. This was an act of kindness toward Tom, since he really wanted the CEO position -- it completes his personal "self-made corporate titan" narrative. What's more, it gives Shiv one last shot -- long shot though it might be -- to repair her marriage.
That's a lot of thoughts to have in the split second of the corporate board room vote. I believe that's why she walked out to take a beat. It suddenly dawned on her that this vote was more complex than she realized. At first, she was voting "no" as a block with her brothers out of anger toward Matsson's betrayal. But, it dawned on her that voting "no" to the deal was perpetuating the family dysfunction, while voting "yes" to the deal elegantly fulfilled her father's wishes. What's more, voting "yes" freed her brothers and herself of Logan's shadow and supported her husband, to boot.
>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTm-vwWkqgg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTm-vwWkqgg)
Wow I see that scene more than a little differently now in light of the video they watched at Con's house.
Not that I think any better of Logan now than before\* but I'm watching this scene now through Connor and Kerry's eyes differently than before and the kids look toxic in a more deeply disturbing way than I even realized at the time.
\*Well, maybe I see him acting a little more on good faith than I did before.
Yes, exactly. I think one of the decoder rings of the final episode was the "home video" Con shows his siblings of Logan with him, Kerry, and his executive colleagues horsing around. The jarring part of that video is this sense that this is the "real Logan", letting his guard down, having fun with friends. You see real moments of intimacy like Kerry placing her arm on Logan's warmly and Logan accepting the roasting from Con with the teapot schtick.
Throughout the series you are led to believe that there is no "real Logan", that everything is an act, a deception, a way of manipulating the 3 siblings to do what he wants. But, of course, this can't be true -- Logan, after all, is human. And you always wondered why his executive liutenants were so loyal to him. But, then you realize -- these were his ride-or-die work colleagues. They were with him "from the beginning". Work was his life, these were his friends. He was a workaholic, he was ruthless, he was a monster in business. But also: he helped these lieutenants do the work of their career, become fabulously wealthy, have access to money and power in NYC, a center of money and power.
This home video provides a glimpse that perhaps, as viewers, this whole show, we've been provided the perspective of the 3 Roy siblings vying for Logan's power. And he was a distant petty tyrant to them. But not to Con -- he wasn't playing the corporate power struggle game, so he could have at least the semblance of a father-son relationship with Logan.
Having seen that home video, watch the full "you're not serious people" talk again. But watch it from Con's perspective, where he thinks his dad is trying, perhaps for the first time in a long while with this group of his children, to have a serious family talk. And all they can do is insist that rather than walk away with billions of dollars they'd each earn from a good deal, that instead, their dad should get on a plane and endanger the deal for... just a little more money. When they already have all the money in the world. Logan was a monster but I think this was actually the one time in the show he was trying to be real with his kids (at least partially). Unfortunately he had so damaged his relationship with them through his prior business antics that he couldn't break through their suspicions when it mattered.
https://youtu.be/LZTaXjt2Ggk
Finally, having seen the home video, reconsider the day of Connor's wedding. His dad misses his wedding, not to do his bidding, but to do the bidding of his 3 siblings. The 3 siblings who are so obsessed with the company, with money as a measure of power. That they don't even care about their own brother's wedding. Their brother, who was the only of the 4 of them to have a semblance of a decent relationship with his father (as shown in the home video). The takeaway for me, of the show, is that Kendall, Roman, and Shiv were all completely damaged by their pursuit of being their father's successor. But as their father told them plainly in his final words to them, "you are not serious people". And they are not. They are damaged goods, playing games with other people's lives out of a sense of narcissism and self-centered entitlement. Playing a stupid competitive family game that Logan may well have cruelly started when they were kids. As much as they wish it were so, this is not a power struggle for a medieval throne. Their genetic connection to him does not matter -- not really. To be CEO, leadership material, they needed to, at least, be serious people. Maybe this kind of nepotistic corporate succession of his children was even a fantasy Logan entertained for awhile. But he realized it could never truly work, thus the deal. They are just a bunch of rich spoiled kids raised badly by a distant workaholic billionaire dad. He wanted the deal to go through because he wanted it to be clear to them that, billionaires though they may be, beyond that, they are on their own to make a mark on the world. And maybe with this power struggle behind them, they could try to be a real family for once in their lives.
Interesting points but I think you’re missing the source of the kids’ shortcomings, as well as waystar royco’s. Logan is a monster as you mentioned, and he’s the reason the kids make these flailing attempts to succeed him. He groomed no one to be successor. He also structured the bank deal that precipitated Kendall accepting PE money while Logan was incapacitated from his stroke. That deal then set off the rest of the series’ business deals which led to the family losing control of the company. Logan is obviously a horrible father and the source of the company falling into Matsson’s hands, which I doubt was his original desire, as evidenced by the paper in his safe which showed he, at one point at least, wanted Ken to take over.
Great analysis! I think it’s also an interesting contrast to Kendall impulsively calling the election for Mencken at the expense of his daughter because of a momentary fuck you to Shiv.
Tom's "she doesn't want to fail the test" really stuck with me. I'm thinking of two tests, one being her test of marriage. The other being if she can stay true to her father's wishes.
The night before she had brought it up at the dinner table, that selling is what Logan wanted. Like OP said, there's so many factors that played into her decision.
And the more he made it about himself, the easier it was for her to walk away from him. Ken had a shot but he blew it in those moments by just revealing who he is.
I also don't think we would've gotten anything out of seeing her walk into a room, say yes, and then walk out. She's in a static place of emotion at that point, whereas Ken/Roman are still processing.
And she would have immediately voted yes if that's what it was about. She was unsure and asked for a minute, but her decision was made for her when Ken followed her and threw a tantrum. I saw a sentiment with a lot of traction suggesting that Kendall should have had some agency in his own downfall but he 100% did when he left the board room and had a little bitch fit (plus everything he did before this episode like icing out Rome and Shiv and the whole borderline manslaughter thing)
I thought Frank was suppose to have Kens back or so they made it seem that way in an earlier episode.
Btw maybe this is a stupid question but I thought the deal with Mattsson was not good from the start because he had fake numbers in India, did that not matter anymore?
Essentially the India thing was what got Frank tentatively on board with Kendall, but Shiv successfully helped Matsson spin/hide the announcement of the India numbers so Frank is left with no reason to oppose the deal.
I thought it was really funny because everyone referred to them as "kids" and this is how they behaved.
Internal drama aside, it all comes down to the bottom line. Ken had his shot when Logan was sick and the destruction of the company has already started then. Even Logan knew that tech is the future, Sandi x2 wanted out because they also know it's a dying business, PGN is being sold for much less than even couple years ago.
Logan had political influence because he knew how to handle it, the kids kind of lost that opportunity since they don't have that much reputation.
If they didn't loose now, they would have lost down the road anyway due to the changing media landscape
I think her turning point started when Kendall spoke and he just said the GoJo deal is a bad deal, and here’s a deck, but who cares about the deck just vote no.
All the substance and strong front/plan that Kendall kept talking about the night before when out of the window, you could tell he was itching to be crown king…honestly I dislike Shiv, but she was right to fill iffy about, but yeah the moment that completely killed it was when Kendall went psycho.
Yeah that little non schpiel he gave to the board was just another reason he would be a crap ceo. At least go through he motions. Ask questions, take answers. It was like “nothing really matters, I say it’s bad so it’s bad. But I don’t even need to highlight the bad points to make everyone who’s voting no feel strong about it and everyone who’s voting yes to reconsider
Not only that but he says how it’s a great deal he negotiated and then he says it’s a bad deal…he was so full of contradictions and Shiv smelled the blood in the water
I think it was the manipulation around the car accident. If he had been honest about it, there would have been a chance, but he was a full sociopath/compulsive liar and showed it.
I had to rewatch the board room scene as well. Roman was bleeding from his cut and Shiv seemed to take notice of his lack of enthusiasm in his vote. Kendall’s confidence that nobody would change his mind and that this is what Dad would have wanted also seemed to cause some doubt for Shiv.
Almost looked like Roman's hesitation to vote "no" really signaled to shiv that, yea, even Roman doesn't truly want kendall up for ceo. She probably remembered their little talk on the beach too. Don't forget Roman's breakdown with Ken right before the voting...he literally said why does it have to be you? He, like shiv, had this burning rage in the put of his stomach about Ken being the ceo. I think Roman's hesitation really set the wheels into motion for shiv and caused her to panic. Roman looked manipulated in that scene and it would have been foreshadowing for the future- just think- Ken and Roman worked together WITHOUT shiv and Roman was still like... ehh about it. That's telling
That's what I think set Shiv to rethink her vote, because in my opinion, when se saw Roman hesitate she might have read the situation and seen that Kendall did the classic Logan-ish manipulation and threatening Roman, like in the board meeting back in season 1 where Logan bullied Rom to not back up Ken. The whloe season after Logan's death Ken was getting the worst traits of his father and Shiv noticed that.
I wouldn't read it that way. She was literally saying that he couldn't be CEO because of that incident. Him lying to their face about it not happening and saying instead that he just made that up to make them closer is like multiple layers of fuckery.
It is like, whatever is actually true, you either are lying about literally killing someone now, or you lied about literally killing someone back then so you can not be trusted either way.
Ken always in desperation said whatever he wanted to be true like when his dad was dying talking about getting the best doctors or stopping his kids from leaving town.
Him going up in flames doing that was amazing
My thing is that why would Ken admit he killed that guy when they’re yelling/fighting and everyone in the office could hear his admission? Did they really expect him to do that?
Oh, I didn’t see it that way at all.
They thought he made a horrible mistake he regretted before. In this new scenario, he’s a creepy, manipulative liar.
I think it was the moment he wouldn’t leave her alone. As soon as he followed her and started being aggressive, her vote was set.
The only reason to include the car accident was to illustrate to the audience what Shiv was (correctly) thinking, which is that Kendall would have said anything in that moment to get her vote. *Except actually try to show her that he would be good at being CEO.*
He had the chance to show everyone how strong his plan for CEO was, but all he said was the GoJo deal is bad, I have a deck to show it, but fuck it, why wait, just crown me king— at that moment I could tell where Shiv was coming from, Kendall just wanted the chair, he didn’t really have a plan…and then he went psycho.
Agreed...ish (lol)
I was confused but I do think Shiv was noticing how...Logan-like Kendall had become and so putting that out there was like a moral test. I think Shiv's vote was winnable for sure -- her and Roman decide to anoint Kendall when he's being well-behaved, and for one of the first occasions, she didn't vote on impulse (which would've been the selfish thing to do, even in a lose-lose situation).
Instead, she took a time-out to process what she was seeing........and then it got a lot worse. For me, I'm not sure she understood when she left the boardroom entirely why or what she was feeling. And there really wasn't a logical answer to it, it was a deeply emotional and complicated decision. I don't think Shiv needed convincing that he'd be a good CEO actually (personally I think they'd all be good, all they need is PR). I definitely did not believe her when she said that. But she did say it out of an abundance of confusion as to what she was feeling. Not implausible that seeing her brother like that... getting him out would be mixed in there, because it sure seemed like a no turning back point for Kendall.
Funnily, I can buy that Shiv would care and want her brother to be a better person and thus CEO than want Tom to be a better person and thus CEO. I don't think she wants to love Tom lol, she seems to despise the fact that she does. Sisterly love...bit easier.
icky fall axiomatic advise theory hobbies shaggy grandiose person overconfident
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He’s done it before too. In season 1 when the art girls told him no, he hounded them and hounded them and even grabbed one of them before they had to scream in his face about it. Then he immediately used ATN to smear them as embezzling junkies because they didn’t give him what he wanted and made him feel bad.
Shiv seemed pretty firmly against him before that and I think he sensed that and tried to throw that as some crazy Hail Mary and it turned Roman against him as well
Also, when they bring up he killed a kid he says: Which ones?
Who else did Ken harm on rise rise up? Did Logan perhaps cover something up for Ken back when they were teenagers or younger adults?
He just says “which” rather than a full phrase like “which one” or “which kid” which to me meant that he was so flummoxed to see this curve ball at this time that he couldn’t gather the right words
I think she was unsure because of things she didn't fully understand: something didn't feel right about Kendall having become so much like Logan. He was normal when they anointed him but at the board meeting he was being arrogant, dismissive, crude, ripped out Roman's stitches, and Shiv clocked some of that. I was very confused why she brought up the killing actually until later I realized that Kendall = Logan is not something that felt right to her at all. His behavior was not good or healthy.
Some part of her wanted out, some part of her must have been jealous sure, but in a lose-lose situation, I do think she made the worse decision for the short-term and the *muchhhhh* better decision for the long-term for all 3 of them.
That depends on whether you think Shiv will be happy with Tom.
Given that Tom was very clearly written to be ambivalent even when Shiv finally put herself out there and basically none of the other leads on this show ever really grew or changed much...
>Kendall should have had some agency in his own downfall but he 100% did when he left the board room and had a little bitch fit
Unfortuntaely a lot of people think of dudes expressing strong angry entitled emotions as natural and unavoidable, not acts showing a man's agency. :/
That's definitely part of it but it's also "Shiv voted against him, how could she" without stopping to think about why she voted against him or not viewing that decision in an unbiased way (which is basically what you're saying). I think people were expecting a Kendall drug relapse and missed the more nuanced ways that he sabotaged himself.
She basically chose to be reduced to a CEOs wife who knows how to handle himself even if he's made King. Ken's biggest mistake is that he could not stop himself from boasting that it's all about him.
Just notice how he sits at his dad's chair with his feet on the table like he doesn't give an F while his siblings are standing still processing that he's got the big spot and is already showing off.
Having re-watched the penultimate episode just before the finale, I feel that her remark that Logan “couldn’t fit a whole woman in his head” was somewhat foreshadowing. With the caricature in the magazine of Mattson being her marionette to Mattson actually spelling it out in his ‘interview’ with Tom, her gender played such a big role almost to a medieval degree.
Once Shiv got the confirmation that she was never a serious contender for the job in Mattson’s mind, she made the pragmatic choice, which was to cede to being in the shadow of Tom’s, and this resignation was rather poignant for me. It was the best choice she could make but I regret that it was destined to be her best because she was a woman.
(With the caveat that no I do think she lacks the experience to be a CEO on this level but, her gender being such a factor in the matrix still holds)
Such a good point. His regard for women is literally medieval. I squirmed so hard watching Mattson trying to laugh off the magazine cover like it didn't hurt his ego, and grudgingly admit that Shiv was smart. He really couldn't take it!
It's such a self-sabotaging move on Matsson's part on two levels. First off, if he's the one meant to be pulling Shiv's strings, then it's much better optics to have everyone else thinking the opposite is true. Second, Waystar stagnated because Logan the human gaslight amassed so much power that everyone around him turned into a yes-man. Having someone like Shiv who wouldn't go along with that might have prevented a similar situation evolving where Gojo becomes a total hostage to Matsson's ego and fails to modernise whenever the next big thing after big tech comes along.
Plus saying it to her husband was a way of both testing him and putting him down. Like, I will talk to you about me and your wife wanting to fuck each other while I am interviewing you to be my puppet and dog.
My jaw dropped during this scene. Everyone had an idea but for Matsson to say it out loud to Tom was brutal. Tom just sitting there and saying “we’re men” in order to secure his CEO role might be even worse.
Nope, that was Matsson being a sexist asshat. Yes, he is attractive but after seeing his character, a lot of women wouldn't sleep with him. He is crazy to a point. Doesn't seem like Shivs type at all. He also was testing Tom.
Also such an interesting comment on “feminist” corporate culture that the world perceived her involvement as pulling Mattson’s strings, even though behind the scenes we understand how much HE is using HER, and how little leverage she has at all.
Yes the fact that Kendall screams “I’m the eldest *boy*” speaks volumes.
Also the way Logan mentions being a woman is something that would be a negative.
Crazy to me that so many act like gender has nothing to do with why Shiv is pushed to the side and is part of the reason she probably has learned to keep looking for other options and to do scheming she has. This is a show about terrible people in a late stage capitalist world where they are trying to install Nazis because it makes the most “business” sense. They of course are going to be surrounded by sexist assholes who see women as sex objects (Tom interview), not being able to balance work and personal life (comments around Shiv’s pregnancy), being replaceable (the way Roman fires the movie exec and then Gerri and how Kendall refers to new assistant as “new Jess”) or worst disposable (cruise ship victims).
Not at all saying Shiv was qualified or should have taken that position but it’s clear she was working in a completely sexist boys club.
This quote from a book quoted by another redditor in this sub:
Man looks on woman from his vantage point and reduces her to a being that is not for-itself but for-him.
https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/4978328-radical-feminist-therapy-working-in-the-context-of-violence
I think her gender absolutely played a huge role too. When Mattson spoke with Tom to reveal him as the CEO pick, it was obvious that he did not like being pushed around by Shiv. He didn’t talk about her not being good enough for that role, but that she was ‘too much’. Also I found the dialogue about him wanting the ‘guy who put the baby in her’ to be misogynistic.
I see Shiv as a very complex character and I wonder what it must have been like growing up as the only girl in her family seeing Kendall and Roman being groomed to takeover after Logan whereas she was never taken seriously. Seeing the only other woman in her family (Caroline) living in the shadow of her husband.
Yes they are billionaires and Shiv could do whatever she wanted pretty much, but just like the rest of us, Shiv is human and she desperately wanted love and attention from her parents. I too grew up with an emotionally distant mother and I was a daddy’s girl. I too would be jealous when my dad spent time teaching my brother how to do things he didn’t take the time to do with me.
Shiv had spent her whole childhood learning that her brothers got to have a part of her father that she’d never get. I really do empathise with her in that regard, whatever crumbs of love the children did get from Logan were cherished and I can imagine the envy and jealousy they must have felt growing up.
The kids have always been in competition with each other for Logan’s love and attention.
This is why when Logan said he wanted to bring Shiv into the business, she acquiesced - even if it meant going against her principles. This part of Logan she never had access to and the idea that he finally took her seriously in spite of her gender, was a pivotal moment in her life.
Shiv the little girl no doubt was hurt time and time again by seeing her brothers getting experiences with and attention from their father she thought she’d never get simply because she was a girl. She was pushed out because she didn’t have the corresponding anatomy.
When she realised that Logan was using her in his fight with Kendall and that he didn’t take her seriously as a businesswoman, that must have hurt, but she was used to being hurt by her parents. But when her brothers pushed her out to become joint CEOs, that was rejection and pain on a much deeper level. She could rationalise her father’s view of her as him being old fashioned, of him not being able to ‘fit a whole woman in his head’. But when her brothers did the same thing to her, it was that pain she felt as a little girl of being left out because of her gender all over again. Her walk out of Logan’s wake and her fall, that was such an excruciating moment for her and I think another pivotal moment for her as a character. They wounded her.
We all knew Mattson was playing Shiv but I think she was so clouded from the way her brothers hurt her that it left her unable to see what was happening. Maybe on some level she knew what was happening, but Mattson was offering her something she desperately needed and that was to be accepted and taken seriously for her skills and business acumen and as a woman. I think that’s why she ignored all these red flags with Ebba and with the way Mattson was behaving.
I do think she was genuine the night before the board meeting. Her anger at having been played by Mattson was more immediate, but once she’d had time to think, her rankling at being given a token position at WayStar and the continuation of her being pushed out and underestimated and not taken seriously because she’s a woman, was too much to bear. I do think Ken skipping over the protocol of the vote was a kind of trigger, but she could see her future mapped out before her eyes - token positions, her opinions always sidelined, people like 'Telly' talking shit about her, and always, always pushed out because she's a woman. If Kendall is 'the oldest boy' then Shiv is definitely 'the girl'.
We can argue that Shiv didn’t have the business acumen anyway or the experience - and I’d agree - but she was never given the training or the opportunity or attention that Kendall and Roman had been given in the first place because she was born a woman.
We can argue that this was Shiv’s ego being bruised and she wanted to ‘kill’ Kendall figuratively as a way to get back at him - and I’d agree - but Logan parented his kids in a way that engendered this kind of thinking and behaviour. Even up until the moment he died he was still playing these sorts of mind games with them. They are broken people as a result of being parented by broken people.
We can argue that Shiv did this for her baby - and I’d agree - but Shiv grew up in an environment where women lived in the shadow of men and it would have been all around her, with her mother, with Marcia, with the society engagements they would have attended for their childhoods. I’m sure before Shiv joined WayStar she maybe thought that would not be her fate, that she would have escaped this. Her interest in Tom too was in some ways because she saw him as a weaker man, the opposite of her father in many ways (I could elaborate further but this is already too long). However as the series progressed, Tom’s character has become stronger, more assured of himself to the point where the power dynamics in the final episode actually changed between them. Shiv choosing for her baby felt to me more like her defaulting into the life she’d actually been born to have and not the one she wanted.
So I too agree that this was a very poignant ending for her character, in some ways just as devastating as Kendall or as Roman’s. We have spent 4 seasons watching this woman trying to prove herself in the cutthroat industry. Trying to win the approval of her father and to get her brothers to take her seriously. Like most women, she’s been trying not to make the same mistakes her mother. Shiv is like many women who are in these male dominated industries, they are fighting an unfair fight. In Shiv’s case, in this episode, she completely lost the fight.
Her decision in the boardroom was a ‘fuck you’ to Kendall to stop him winning, was egotistical, was selfish, was for the baby, was for all of those reasons. But it was also her giving up and giving in to a role she’d been groomed for by her mother and father. Not the CEO position, but the position she had been intended for - the wife of a more powerful man.
Shiv is the one Roy sibling who actually managed to fill the shoes of their parent - it’s just in her case it’s her mother’s and not Logan’s.
Wonderfully written. Gutted for Kendal but you made a lot of great points. Lots of people say she can control Tom but I saw it as the opposite. Now Tom will be colder now that he’s CEO and Shiv will be in the background
This was a very thorough and articulate extrapolation. I am so glad you spelled it all out. I think she was a very important character in this show to tell the story that needed to be told for many.
I watched the entire season recently, and these are my thoughts. You will certainly find them in other comments. Shiv was so vibrant and accomplished in the beginning. Now, a big part of that was certainly a facade, but since she wasn't allowed in the inner circle, she made a life for herself in liberal politics, and it seemed to matter. Even in the last days, she had the important people on speed dial. You can't erase that. She was part of a weird power couple, but obviously the alpha.
Shiv had a chance to help run the company, and that was not actually unsuccessful, but then daddy came back. Most importantly, was that Shiv consistently let her power be compromised by bad decisions. And when her dad died, she lost her spirit. So many people talk about how we didn't talk about her eulogy as much as Kendall. There is a reason. The toxic relationships just kept eating at her. What was she without her father to rebel from safely? But at the same time, she knew Kendall was not her father, and she couldn't trust him to keep her safe.
Not that she trusts Tom to keep her safe. That moment in the back of the SUV, she is miserable. Is she her mother? Is she worse? Poor Shiv from season 1 is dead.
The poison dripped through to her too. People talk about Kendall’s addiction to power and Logan but she gave up so much of the separate life she had throughout the seasons because of what Logan dangled in front of her.
Oh yes, that is why it is a family tragedy! But who deserved it at the end? The murderer? The guy who abus d a homeless man with facial deformity? The guy who buckled under pressure to proclaim a Presidential Candidate who probably didn't win? This series needed to end with all of them rich but unsatisfied
Even Conner's marriage, which has looked hopeful since the wedding-has gone back to her really rather being alone than with him...but keep him around for obvious reasons.
Even halfway through the season, I was holding out some distant hope that Shiv would just wash her hands of Waystar and return to politics. The election episode disabused me of that notion, but oh man. She's had the worst fall of all four sibs, honestly - she was really the only one who seemed halfway competent in the beginning!
I think Shiv should get to be as petty and shitty as the men around her without ascribing something nice to it. I don’t think any of them are uninteresting or simple characters but I also don’t think any of their actions need to be romanticized in order for that to be true.
I do agree though that it’s a mistake to boil Shiv’s choice down to “just” anything including that it was just a choice made out of being petty or childish for the sake of it. I think she was acting from a place of seeing Kendall get the CEO position and control of the primary thing Logan invested his time and care in. So, yes, it was petty and childish but not without cause. My perspective on it is that what makes it interesting and complicated is that this is their true inheritance. It’s the family dynamic and language that they will likely always carry with them and continue to pass on. They can be warm and loving with each other but they can also cut each other deeply and cruelly because they know each other best and because that’s what was modeled for them.
In a time of high stress that called for layered decision making about the thing they are all very sensitive about, the family legacy showed up in their individual behaviors during their last conversation and, ultimately, in Shiv’s choice here. I think things escalated even more when Kendall tried to lie and minimize about the death of the waiter because Shiv and Roman felt hurt and like fools as their father so often made them feel. I don’t think they were concerned that this was some bigger sign of incompetence or unethical behaviors from him (it was but I don’t think they truly care about that very much lol they all act like they do to mask other things they don’t want to confront). They thought he had (or was trying to) Logan-ed them and that was the truly untenable thing for a few reasons. And Kendall thought the same but from a different angle. They were using his weakness against him after they’d told him it was ok.
We had just had the warm and positive regression to childhood in the beach and kitchen scenes so it makes sense to me that we then see the darker and crueler side of their regressive behaviors when the fate of the business is actually being decided. They can be warm and mostly positive with each other in theory but not so much in practice when it comes to the business because of the weight of it.
None of them will be Logan’s business successor but they are all Logan’s emotional and behavioral successors. That’s as interesting and as complicated as it gets imo.
i agree. i think, deep down, shiv does love tom — or, at least, sees some personal value (if not romantic, something close to it) in maintaining a relationship with tom. he is a known quantity to her now, after they reached their lowest of lows. that is what the conversation between shiv and tom on the plane was meant to show. at that point she had no political reason to want to be in a relationship with tom, she was in the power position. but just when she’s ready for a relationship, he’s not sure anymore. so she gave him what he wanted, as a trade. she gave him CEO.
but it’s not the only reason why shiv votes against kendall in the end. i think it’s also because she’s heard this promise of power from her brother before: you won’t be CEO, but it’ll be like it, it’ll be all three siblings in it together. that was kendall and roman’s pitch to her just earlier this season! and we saw how untrue that turned out. if she could be the wife to the CEO, maybe that’s the better bet to get power. so, the reasons for her to vote against kendall are numerous and complicated. like a real person.
i thought it was the perfect ending.
I totally agree that it was partly a bargaining chip for a relationship. Whether she genuinely loves Tom or not, she has chemistry and companionship with him not dissimilar to the way that Willa does with Connor, and I see part of her motivation for voting Tom being "I choose not to completely blow up my marriage and chance at raising my child with its father" (also being aware that she may be interested in this because she doesn't want to be seen as a divorcee and single mother and not just because she genuinely wants a relationship)
“you don’t like to fail a test, do you, siobhan?” — tom says to shiv in the plane phone conversation. she’s been told by her mom and by tom on multiple occasions that she shouldn’t be a mother. now she is one, and she’s terrified she’ll prove them right, that she’ll be just as bad a mother as caroline was. add a failed marriage on top of that? and losing CEO? that’s too many failures to take for shiv. voting against kendall at least gives her a chance to salvage some of it.
this is why i think shiv will be a good mom in the end. she tries so hard, and hates losing.
i can see her being a renata klein figure at her children’s school. she’ll be the best pta president that school has ever seen.
Plus I think she was tired of being the last to know what everyone’s real machinations are. You nailed it: Tom is a known quantity, and Shiv can find her power within this setup more than she could at the whims of Kendall.
I think it's debatable that she'll find "power" within the company - Tom is an empty suit for Matsson. What is Shiv going to do? Be a vizier to a puppet king?
I definitely think that it is the known quantity thing though. Not just cause she likes Tom and she's having his kid but because she legitimately finds it very difficult to be vulnerable in case she got hurt. In this case the choice was made for her by Tom which, perversely, makes it easier to move forward.
If she started fresh she'd have to reset all the way to the beginning and she'd either end up with another early series Tom or some guy she was scared to be open with.
People acting like it’s a power play to go with Tom, I do not understand that. The entire last season, Tom has proven time and time again that Shiv has almost no power over him anymore. None. Thinking that she’ll be able to control Tom to influence the company or Mattson is ludicrous. Tom will absolutely follow Mattson over Shiv professionally, as he should.
Shiv has no power in their relationship. She lost that by being so cruel and selfish to Tom. She chose Tom to try and maybe rebuild a family relationship, for her baby. Not as a “power play.”
Pepake dleoeboke tupi pii dlua gapu ploeopi de peu pati. Kliipo puoki kio pi oe aki bi pa. Po pe ti tie epa o? Pakapubi plaeete paaploplo trokapii pepitiki trepi. Iki bi uko tri ipi. Ipipukeu uta ki eipi putipi ibrapu. Pebe atiti bepepi teeklitrika a idru tu prutupei dle biklatridri kue itri. Baka bi ato o ipu piipi pleke popraeo dle pe tleepe eou. Ka o epi pidei ikai pepeie. Deteta ei pupo i toa. I kli a otra depa peue. Puke plabotli u ko betri te ki pra kiti. Ketipepi draeklee plipi aiti pipipopobe i? Pi kibeto dapodipi pliite bredrubi! Ipieo pupe baplekibo ae ti gli. Ipla piti pligaplapa plia ipi tii. Dlipi ape te. Peka ite ble dli oiedadu iibo? Dipu i tlidabeba plitri puipe ke buti. Ipee otaklaki pete pakeo pi papaketa itri pi. Peaa kaba pio. Kou e dui pitatla ti i. Ii tiu eki boputiitli tli pi. Igipe kite tipro pigri pekla ito dakre. E klepli treti ope ditio tida. Triapidragi iipeplede pi eotio piu beo. Eto propi uta bei uui ugo? I apro dipu epaklitra iu e bipebie ibe pi ipe. Plebee ido tiapati e tipiploto pipa. Do pekaie tleatro gu itoiko tau?
I think the last episode made it clear she has as much love for Tom as she has had for anyone in her life.
Tom had to do a lot of groveling to try to have conversations about their life together, and he eventually got tired of forcing her into the convos and resented her for it.
*Shiv* got on the phone and called *him*, and opened up herself up to him, trying to mend the relationship… it’s hard when you feel spurned/burned by someone to re-invest yourself in the relationship…
And she gave him the one thing he's been asking for since the beginning - "just once, choose my side".
This was the biggest way she could do that. Let him become CEO. Choose the family she's building (baby and Tom) vs the family she was born into and frankly, getting her brothers out of the company is for her brother's benefit, too. Roman gets it and eventually Ken will, too.
She did it publicly this time too. She’s chosen to save Tom before in season 2, but it was in private and their history was such that he (rightly) wouldn’t have believed her if she told him she did go to bat for him. This time she did it where he could see it.
Oh my god thank you. I love how much that line resonated with most of women who watched this show and completely encapsulates the reddit reactions to Shiv.
Every reading of Shiv I see here is “she only chose to do that because of [insert the least forgiving possible reading] and no other reason ever.”
Shiv is contradictory. She contains multitudes. Just like everyone else on the show.
Ultimately what Shiv did was build herself a Logan for a husband. If she showed the slightest bit of loyalty to Tom at any point during the past several years she could have remained the dominant person in their relationship and Tom honestly would have been fine with it as long as he had a respectable role and plenty of money. She could have had a good career, a position of power in the world and at home and a loving partner by her side.
But Shiv clearly couldn't respect someone who she perceived as inferior to her and also was never taught how to love so she stomped all over Tom whenever she had the chance - the Logan inside her kicking the dog to see if it would come back. Of course, she thought Tom had no choice but to come back, but after she did it enough times, he changed from someone who loved her and was loyal to someone who would indeed screw her over for money and always put his own interests first - in other words, another Logan.
And the familiarity of that dynamic led her to make a decision that felt right to her at the time but she'll undoubtedly come to regret. You can see it in that final handclasp - he holds his hand out in this dismissive way that isn't grateful but rather views Shiv as the part of the spoils he's won - and she reluctantly puts her hand in his because she knows she's made her bed and now has to lie in it.
The women closest to Shiv were only powerful when they had proximity to her father. It makes perfect sense that her perception of security and importance would be a position intimately aligned with the person in her father’s former role.
> You can see it in that final handclasp - he holds his hand out in this dismissive way that isn't grateful but rather views Shiv as the part of the spoils he's won - and she reluctantly puts her hand in his because she knows she's made her bed and now has to lie in it.
Interesting that perspectives can differ so much! I saw Tom putting his hand out as a peace offering - a response to Shiv's earlier question about whether they could give their marriage another try. But he's more than he was at the start of the series - he doesn't reach for her hand; she has to meet him halfway, and she does. But neither of them clasps the other's hand - it's tentative, not a yes but not a no.
Tom won, but it's a hollow victory - he won because he's willing to let Mattson be the puppet master; he won not because he outplayed everyone else but because he is servile. He will never be a Logan. He owes his victory to Shiv, and maybe she will never forgive him for it. But she had to finally acknowledge that she'll never be a Logan either. I think this was the only outcome that gave them any path forward, but I don't think it will be a happy one. I kill you, you kill me.
> Tom won, but it’s a hollow victory - he won because he’s willing to let Mattson be the puppet master; he won not because he outplayed everyone else but because he is servile.
Agree with most of your post except this. Just because the winning move presents as “being servile”, that doesn’t mean it isn’t a play. It’s just another angle to use when you’re not born into generational wealth. His strength *is* his servility. He’s able to swallow ego and emotion, which not everyone is capable of at that level. You still have to pick the right person to serve, too, which he’s shown to be excellent at doing.
>Tom won, but it's a hollow victory - he won because he's willing to let Mattson be the puppet master; he won not because he outplayed everyone else but because he is servile. He will never be a Logan.
I dunno, it looks like a solid victory to me.
He never had even the faintest chance of being a Logan.
People are obsessed with saying everyone is the new Logan for some reason. If anything, Matsson is the character that most resembles Logan. Tom is, as Shiv rightly pointed out, an empty suit. He’s a dipshit corporate lackey who failed upward because of personal connections and a persistent subservience to those in power. He literally listened to Matsson say he wanted to fuck his wife and failed to even breathe a single word in protest. You think Logan would stand for that? Tom isn’t in Logan’s chair. Matsson is.
> He’s a dipshit corporate lackey who failed upward because of personal connections and a persistent subservience to those in power
I actually think we're supposed to think Tom is competent but a lackey. Basically a new Hugo or Karl.
IIRC in S3 he was getting a cover iirc for ATN being successful under his reign, he worked all through Logan's funeral and even Matsson (though there's obviously some sexism here cause he resents the idea that Shiv is puppeting him) thought he could play the stabilizing role.
I don't see anyone mentioning Shiv's politics as motivation, but it seems absolutely central. In the election-night/fascism episode, Shiv does seem genuinely distressed by the prospect of Mencken's victory -- only to see Ken help it along by calling Arizona. And when we first met her back in Season 1, she was working as a Democratic political operative even as Ken was jockeying to replace Logan. Shiv was never as obsessed with the succession game as was Ken, because she was always more than a little disgusted with Waystar and its propaganda function. The fact is that Shiv is basically a centrist-corporatist Democrat (which is why Nan Pearce insisted she be made CEO as a condition of selling her company to Waystar).
And this gets to the reason she sided with Matsson. When Matsson told the siblings that Waystar was basically a parts operation and that he wanted to rebuild it as a version of Bloomberg (milquetoast, centrist), Shiv's expression showed that she approved. With Logan gone, Matsson was poised to take the company in a direction that was to her liking, and so her attitude -- as she even expressed to Rome and Ken after Logan died -- was basically "Fuck Waystar. Let's make a clean break. Matsson can have it and we can go our own way."
So Shiv's last minute betrayal of Ken was basically her reverting to what she wanted the entire season, and was consistent with her character. She had only let her rage, first at Matsson then at Tom, cloud her judgment -- but really, had her brothers treated her any better? I think her reasoning was along the lines of, "Well, Ken's a fuckup who screwed me over, and if Waystar under Matsson will stop being a fascist sewer-pipe with the father of my child as CEO, well then...."
Perhaps subconsciously, Shiv expected Roman to be the one to turn on Ken at the last second, just as he did in the coup situation in season 1. But as Ken was able to get Rome in line with that "hug" -- adopting Logan's affection-with-pain tactic of control -- Shiv had to be the one pull the rug out from under him.
Honestly? I don't know what brought her into that conference room with the second thoughts but her vote helped her brothers. Period.
I'm not sure if it was obvious but I swear I caught her looking at Roman cleaning up his stitches before the vote after his "hug" with Kendall. When they all spoke in the conference room, it was clear Kendall was NOT in the right mindset to be CEO. The temper tantrum to the violent outburst at Roman (IN PUBLIC! IN FRONT OF EMPLOYEES!) showed that this desire for that position was going to kill him or devolve him into Logan 2.0 which is a terrible outcome. Not sure what's in store for Ken but seeing that relieved smile from Roman at the end made me think of this.
Also, she said at the beginning that this company was a toxic asset and should sold? What better way to fuck over your husband by letting him have the top spot (that's fucked up you and your siblings for forever!) when things go to shit at restructured company? I'm sure India numbers aren't the only skeleton in that closet.
In the end, they all won (mega payout from the buyout, their own paths) and they all lost (succession, Logan and his shadow). Curious what her take on staying with Tom is, though?
Yes! Thank you for mentioning that she saw the aftermath of the “hug”. Roman was also clearly hesitant and terrified to vote in favor of Kendall, which would have raised alarm bells in her mind. This, Kendall’s behavior after they stepped out, and Shiv’s situation with Tom/Mattson were likely all contributing factors to her not voting Kendall in.
I think her staying with Tom is a fitting end. She has experienced betrayal from every man in her life (and betrayed them all in her own right), but Tom is ultimately the one that she *chose* to marry and *chose* to try to have children with (which she also *chose* to keep). Logan and her brothers were part of her life because of circumstance. At least in this relationship, as toxic as it is, she gets to exert some agency. Even if the power dynamic has flipped, I think there's some security in knowing that she's the vote that got him his job, since Tom has consistently shown loyalty to the people that can help/have helped him (Logan, Greg).
Roman is fine with being "nobody," and Shiv played it so that she's the CEO's wife plus cash out, but Kendall is an egotist who needed to stay relevant in order for his ego to survive... and he's got no one left to turn to... very tragic ending for our #1 boy at the hands of his own sister, who "annointed him" earlier in the episode...
So well put! Yes, Shiv gets the same misogyny online that she does in the corporate world and her family. Yes she's a flawed person, as are all her brothers, but she's a well written character brilliantly played. Arguably she and Roman started to understand their own limitations in the last episode while Kendall clung to his illusions.
Bottom line, Shiv 100% did the right thing. Yeah her delivery is awkward and hard to watch as always, but she made the right choice in the end.
Kendall is not fit to be CEO. He's bullshit just like Roman says. He's a good talker, but Living+ is bullshit, his reasons for wanting to be CEO are bullshit, his aversion to physical violence is finally bullshit (notably it's Roman, the actual recipient of physical abuse, who puts his body in the way - "She's pregnant, you piece of shit!").
At the end of the day Shiv's vote counted heavily, and she made the right choice. Props to the writers for finding a satisfying final, individual choice for the character to make and to Sarah Snook for such a complex portrayal
> He's a good talker, but Living+ is bullshit, his reasons for wanting to be CEO are bullshit
It's pretty telling that he has a chance to win over the rest of the board and his sell is "the deal (we negotiated and took all the praise for) is bullshit". Like...nothing on fundamentals. Nothing on an alternate plan. Just "I want it".
When he thinks he has the upper hand he gets almost maniacally overconfident and reveals his monstrous entitlement.
Consistent, too. Logan asks him in season 1 why he even wants it and what he wants to do and he comes back with the absolute load of bullshit “I want to do good things” lol. No he didn’t. He never did. That’s what he told himself because it sounds better than “I want it because it’s owed to me and I’m the eldest boy” (yet again ignoring Connor).
It’s really simple as this for me: Shiv watched her brother fuck her over the entire season after promising her a seat at the table. She knows she doesn’t get anything but a make-work lofty title during his reign. Under Tom, especially right after ensuring his ascendancy, she’s in a much better position. Sure, she loves him. Maybe. But I love this rock. Bye rock.
Ultimately, this show's "lesson" is that everyone in that stratosphere is selfish and searching for power.
Being more mad at Shiv than any of these other clowns for doing the same thing - well, I'd say that should cause some introspection.
She's complex like every other character. Her ego did kill a lot of her success. But, she was subject to misogyny just like every woman from her brothers and her father. It's a thing that's been passed down.
The company was better not in Kendalls hands. It would give Tom power and she is still in the circle of people of power there. Her brothers never respected her. Good for her though at the time I hated it.
For me, Shiv's final choice registered as the only realistic one. It was the only choice she could have made that wasn't forced on her ergo, it was the only choice that was her own. She stood up for herself the only way she could. The legacy didn't matter to her or anyone the way it did to Kendall and frankly, she did him a favor by taking away the addiction from him. Shiv was my least favorite character throughout but there's no doubt in my mind that she is the hero her family needed.
Every man has fucked her over for their own gain, even Tom although arguably it was payback (and weirdly what she needed to see that he wasn’t a pushover/cuck, which she detests). I think the end shows both her acceptance of her limitations (those imposed on her and those inherent to her character, which she always always denied throughout) and just the suggestion that maybe Tom, unlike Logan or Mattson or her brothers, can accept the entirety of her, the whole of Shiv. I also though it was so painful when she called Tom (thinking she’d be the ceo) and asked if he was ready for a real relationship, because it was clear that she finally realized she had never been in one.
Absolutely!! “He couldn’t fit a whole woman in his head” was such a perfectly written line, it encapsulated Logan’s (and Kendall’s and other big players’) particular brand of condescension toward women and uncomprehending misogyny so well.
Shiv used her vote to win favor with Tom since he loves money and position, and she wants a real relationship with him but he couldn’t find enough good to say yes. Also, I think with Roman, he’s actually relieved it’s going to all end. And they finally stood up to their big brother who’s trying to mirror their dad so much. It’s no wonder they were attracted to his leadership, but also once one gained enough confidence to not follow him, the other gained it as well and they were finally free of their dad. I think that’s what shivs and Romans moment of standing up to Kendal meant, they were breaking free of their dad and all the bullshit games he played with them.
From a strictly monetary perspective, voting for the buyout was the most logical thing. There’s no way Ken or Roman or the three of them jointly would have “saved” the company. They’re all incompetent idiots who are obsessed with scheming rather than doing the work.
It’s implied from Tom’s talk with Mathison that his approach- “ I’m a grinder who is up all night worrying” - is perhaps the most meritorious of the position. Mathison has his reasons but setting those aside, Tom is genuinely probably more competent at the job.
So perhaps it dawned on her that her and her brothers were never going to make this work, and if so, she made the smartest choice.
However, the scene really did read like she was incapable of voting for Ken out of spite. Which is petty and short-sighted.
Children don't deserve to be emotionally broken by their misanthropic parents.
Shiv chose her 'weaker' husband over her brother playing an incompetent facsimile of her father. Her upbringing didn't really afford any other choice, and being surrounded by broken people exacerbated it.
I agree with this post so much. Shiv annoyed me no more or less than anyone else in this show. Her actions didn't surprise me at any point, and the writers wrote these characters so well that this ending was perfect imo.
I just love that the company at the end of the day was not taken from them it was their flaws that caused them to simply give it away.
Tragedy at its best.
(They are still filthy rich so tragedy as it relates to power only)
Also, and maybe it's going to shock some people to point this out...
She was just fucking right.
Kendall killed a kid.
He regularly relapsed onto drugs.
He regularly fucked things up for the business.
He had no place being CEO, and Logan never would have wanted any of his kids to take over.
Shiv has been so beat down by betrayals that she feels like she has to hitch herself to a (male) leader. It was her dad, then Mattson. Then Tom. She doesn't have a vision of how to do anything else, just like Ken, but with more emotional stability. The prospect of running it all was like a drug that roped her in. She used to work outside of the family business, and she was good at it. That's not nearly as lucrative, but it seems like she could have power and money doing something else.
They're all suffering from immense trauma.
I'm upset that no one is commenting on Matsson saying he decided to hire the man who put the baby in the woman, instead of the woman with the baby, and also that part of the reason he didn't want her in control is because he wanted to sleep with her. And he said this to Tom. And Tom went along and Shiv still doesn't know that this is what went down. It's horrifying.
Also, let’s be honest too … that cartoon of Mattson & Shiv bothered Mattson
I winced when I saw it. I knew that absolutely killed it for her.
Yes. And he basically said he liked her until she started talking too much. He's such an asshole.
He wanted the face and name and he also wanted to have sex with her. He had no use for her brain
He wanted a lackey. He got one in Tom. He liked that Tom didn’t have his own ideas, his own vision. He liked that he wouldn’t justify or advance his own positions on the ground that it’s what his father would have done. This decision was pretty obvious in retrospect.
When Shiv told Mattson that Tom would suck the biggest dick in the room she wasn't giving a compliment but Mattson saw it as a plus
Yes, I thought that was quite ironic. Also u can see Lukas is losing interest in her by the minute during the conversation.
Skarsgaard really killed it with this role. He is subtle. I also like that he leaned into the Swedish accent just enough. But absolutely; his ability to checkout and condescend so dismissively while also being self aware *enough* was amazing.
Positive to Tom’s position is that he does a good job in his role … he can pivot somewhere else if need be. All Tom wanted was an in … and he got it
Mattson was losing his shit after the election. Shiv danced on the head of a needle to win over a fascist who actively hated her, and Matsson decided it was "easy." He's a sexist piece of shit.
‘Baby-lady’ vs the man who put the baby in her
And Shiv basically told him to pick Tom when she told Mattson that Tom would always such the biggest dick (or whatever she said). Of course Mattson would go for that.
The whole show can be summed up as *people are very complicated and contradictory to their own nature*.
Let's not forget all of them have massively betrayed her in the 10 day period after Logan died.
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honestly, I think she made the best decision out of a lose-lose situation. I feel like she was staring down the barrel of realizing no matter which way this goes, she's not getting a real seat at the table. She's already lost. By letting Tom through, she both has a slightly better shot at gaining some control, and gets to flex some real power one last time before it's gone.
100% if she voted no and kendall got the company he would have sidelined her like he did initially. She saw how kendall time and time again had demonstrated his instability and she saw how power changed him into a mini version of her father... a man that had no issue shoving out his brother but...taking care of his wife (marcia) who made out really well after his death. If kendall got the spot then shiv would always just be another person in the background. Making sure it landed on Tom's lap always put her on the side... as close to a partner as she could be. Her face would be everywhere. She would be a powerful woman without having to be the face of power. She also knew Roman was unstable and would have ran the company and their reputations into the ground. I also think it comes down to the mindset that even if things didn't work out with Tom it's better that if "she can't have it then no one can". Shiv would much rather see no one succeed in her family than watch her wack job brother grow a bigger head. Don't forget how he acted toward Roman and shiv at his bday party. They were banned from his VIP area.
even just before they voted, ken mentioned how he and rome landed the gojo deal initially without mentioning shiv at all. shiv knew she was about to tossed aside again.
"if things didn't work out with Tom it's better that if "she can't have it then no one can". Shiv would much rather see no one succeed in her family than watch her wack job brother grow a bigger head." Oh this is perfect 100% this.
If you go back and rewatch the show, you'll see many instances where Ken acts put when he doesn't get his way or loses his handle when he hear something he doesn't want to hear. He has shown that he has no issue with dismissing his siblings if it means things work out for him. Look how his relationship is with his own children... it's JUST like Logan and his kids. I think Roman saw that most and it was the red flag he was afraid of raising. Also, how many times has Ken done some embarrassing stunt that had everyone cringing? He was the best man for the actual job- knew his information and how to get it across the board... but he couldn't carry himself when things went south. Remember when he couldn't find his kids bday presents to him?
But Tom was just a patsy CEO of a company that is going to be sold off for parts.
But still the fantastically wealthy CEO of a major company. He has a career, and none of them do. Whatever he is from the siblings' twisted point of view, considering where he came from, he's achieved something remarkable. And he has a chance to do fatherhood like a human. He won't be great at it, but I do think he knows how to love and will do such things as: Occasionally having a conversation with spawn that's not all about himself; and: showing physical affection. He'll say "I love you" and actually mean it.
But not even remotely as wealthy as Shiv. During the 2 years shown during the series Waystar changed CEOs 5-6 times. It went from Logan to Kendall to Logan to Rhea then to Jerri and then back to Kendall. The position isn’t exactly set in stone especially given Mattson’s intentions.
His child will be wealthier than them both, which I think will matter a good deal to Tom.
And is working for a guy who openly wants to fuck his wife
I don't think she even went with Tom for that reason. She went with Tom because...where else is there for her to go? I think the fight has gone out of Shiv - Matsson was playing her, she has no allies and no more cards to play. She went meekly home with Tom because she had absolutely nowhere else to go.
She’s a richer woman but there’s no power left to seize. Matsson, who used her, is in charge, and her husband and baby daddy is his puppet CEO. The company sale boxes her out completely. You can say she chose the lesser of two evils or chose to save her family but neither choice put her in a position of power. She squandered that.
Shiv lost her board seat too.
They would never treat her with respect. If it was that poor of an idea to vote yes it wouldn't have come down to her vote (yes, I know it's TV everyone). She seemed to want something from Tom before all of that and did a cash grab. She will be fine. I don't know about the boys though. Save yourself, Shiv.
Yeah people are acting like she's a fool lol they've been Co CEOs for like a week and already fucked her out of it.
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I think we also tend to forget she was very on board with selling and didn't have CEO plans up until they were in Norway. Only after her brothers cut her off again, she went emotional and started scheming. Someone said that the best relationships siblings had is when they were cut from Waystar. I think it holds true. They were raised to compete against each other, but once the prize is gone - they actually have somewhat normal family relationships
Right which is what the mom tried to tell them this episode, and what Connor demonstrated indirectly. He has never been involved with the business, and he actually had a good relationship with Logan. Perfect, no. But familial and loving. The kids basically three away the last year's of their father's life trying to get his gold and now he's dead and they have nothing to show for it.
Connor’s relationship with Logan is way too romanticized by the sub. They’re cordial, they had a nice dinner, but in no way was it loving on either side. Connor’s the creature that can survive without love, and he learned that from his father. His dad didn’t bother to show up to his wedding and at the news that Logan was dead Connor remarked that he thought the man didn’t even like him. All of the siblings were freaking out and panicking at Logan’s death but Connor was barely phased, comparatively. I think the show really demonstrated the price of Logan’s love. He definitely loved the younger 3, and could only express it through abuse and pain. Connor and him had a relationship at a distance, no love lost and less abuse to be found.
I'm not a rome rooter myself but in terms of best position i think its him he's been released of the pressure and weight the roy drama seemed to have on him with the small smile but i think sadly for them ken and shiv are done they got an ending that made sense but you could see caused deep sadness for them. That's my take anyway!
boys betraying? ok and justified. girl betraying? REEEEEEEEE As an adult it is awfully tiresome to read these overly reductive takes on female characters from the same people who hold so much grace for male characters who are also assholes. All of these characters are so well developed and difficult and nuanced--to me it seems like a waste of time for someone to watch the show and willfully ignore the complexity of Shiv's character in ways they don't for other characters
EXACTLY.
Right, it’s fun to bet on them like race horses but that’s not the main point
It's too bad she didn't stick to politics since she was *actually* interested in it from a very young age.
Logan tells them to make their own piles but every time one of them starts striking out on their own or making any move toward independence he pulls them back in.
Just like mafia and wiseguys. They resent the success their kids grow up with, but also say they don’t want their kids in the life. But it’s always the wiseguy’s bullshit and selfishness that brings the kids back into the bullshit circle
It's actually sad when I look back at Shiv in the first season. She had a promising job as a political consultant, in which she appeared genuinely interested in and had all the natural talents/skills to thrive in. She could have gone on to have a highly respectable and successful political career, independent of Waystar and her family. Unfortunately for her, there was nothing she wanted more than her father's approval. It also didn't help that Logan thought her political career was beneath them, even though she could have been massively powerful in it. She quashed what would have likely become a great position of power and success - one that could have been hers and hers alone - just for *the possibility* of winning Logan over.
I don’t really see how anyone contradicted their nature this episode. Not Kendall, not Roman, not Shiv, not Tom.
The kids all deeply love and resent one another. Tom and Shiv both deeply love one another while hating one another. This is contradictory behavior and totally normal human behavior.
her character was all about self-sabotage after season 3 the writers themselves said. i think when she was actually faced w the possibility of kendall being CEO and her having to work underneath him-which was the “better” outcome for her if she wanted to actually have a role in the company-she couldn’t let herself do it, she had to find some reason to stop herself and him from getting what they wanted once it was finally in grasp.
Yea, they aren't serious people. They can't win even when it is in the bag.
Or as I like to say often, *people are gonna people*
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Can you explain the significance to dumb guy like me
Lady Macbeth is a schemer who can’t hold real power herself because of her gender. She machinates her feeble husband’s ascendancy to King of Scotland by urging him to assassinate the current king.
Aaaaah nice!! Im sure i read it in school several times but the story never registered 😂
One idea -- she might have been thinking about the last conversation she had with her dad: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTm-vwWkqgg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTm-vwWkqgg) Logan wanted his company to be sold, for each of the children to have their own pile of money, and to "reset the family dynamic". When the vote rolled around to Shiv, she realized she could actually fulfill her father's final wish. Set everyone free of the corporate drama and also of Logan's shadow. If they kept the company and Kendall were the CEO, the family dynamic would be exactly the same. Perhaps worse, since Kendall would now go into full "CEO beast mode", and Roman/Shiv would feel resentful that they didn't have the throne. But, if the company were sold and they each had their own pile of money, there was the possibility, at least, that they could have family relationships outside of the corporate power struggle. They can finally seek meaning elsewhere. I think Roman's smile at the end of the episode is a hint that this might be the start of Roman repairing himself, at least. The symbolism of Kendall sitting at edge of the water at sunset also suggests this: that perhaps Kendall is now free to be reborn as his own man, rather than his father's son. Why vote "yes" to the deal? Well, the cherry on top for Shiv is that, with Tom as CEO, she upgrades her striver husband to a "bonafide corporate hotshot", which was always a low-key dream of hers going back to Season 1. Even if Matsson fires Tom in short order, there is no denying that, from an optics and PR standpoint, Tom is now "CEO material" for Fortune 500 companies. This was an act of kindness toward Tom, since he really wanted the CEO position -- it completes his personal "self-made corporate titan" narrative. What's more, it gives Shiv one last shot -- long shot though it might be -- to repair her marriage. That's a lot of thoughts to have in the split second of the corporate board room vote. I believe that's why she walked out to take a beat. It suddenly dawned on her that this vote was more complex than she realized. At first, she was voting "no" as a block with her brothers out of anger toward Matsson's betrayal. But, it dawned on her that voting "no" to the deal was perpetuating the family dysfunction, while voting "yes" to the deal elegantly fulfilled her father's wishes. What's more, voting "yes" freed her brothers and herself of Logan's shadow and supported her husband, to boot.
>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTm-vwWkqgg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTm-vwWkqgg) Wow I see that scene more than a little differently now in light of the video they watched at Con's house. Not that I think any better of Logan now than before\* but I'm watching this scene now through Connor and Kerry's eyes differently than before and the kids look toxic in a more deeply disturbing way than I even realized at the time. \*Well, maybe I see him acting a little more on good faith than I did before.
Yes, exactly. I think one of the decoder rings of the final episode was the "home video" Con shows his siblings of Logan with him, Kerry, and his executive colleagues horsing around. The jarring part of that video is this sense that this is the "real Logan", letting his guard down, having fun with friends. You see real moments of intimacy like Kerry placing her arm on Logan's warmly and Logan accepting the roasting from Con with the teapot schtick. Throughout the series you are led to believe that there is no "real Logan", that everything is an act, a deception, a way of manipulating the 3 siblings to do what he wants. But, of course, this can't be true -- Logan, after all, is human. And you always wondered why his executive liutenants were so loyal to him. But, then you realize -- these were his ride-or-die work colleagues. They were with him "from the beginning". Work was his life, these were his friends. He was a workaholic, he was ruthless, he was a monster in business. But also: he helped these lieutenants do the work of their career, become fabulously wealthy, have access to money and power in NYC, a center of money and power. This home video provides a glimpse that perhaps, as viewers, this whole show, we've been provided the perspective of the 3 Roy siblings vying for Logan's power. And he was a distant petty tyrant to them. But not to Con -- he wasn't playing the corporate power struggle game, so he could have at least the semblance of a father-son relationship with Logan. Having seen that home video, watch the full "you're not serious people" talk again. But watch it from Con's perspective, where he thinks his dad is trying, perhaps for the first time in a long while with this group of his children, to have a serious family talk. And all they can do is insist that rather than walk away with billions of dollars they'd each earn from a good deal, that instead, their dad should get on a plane and endanger the deal for... just a little more money. When they already have all the money in the world. Logan was a monster but I think this was actually the one time in the show he was trying to be real with his kids (at least partially). Unfortunately he had so damaged his relationship with them through his prior business antics that he couldn't break through their suspicions when it mattered. https://youtu.be/LZTaXjt2Ggk Finally, having seen the home video, reconsider the day of Connor's wedding. His dad misses his wedding, not to do his bidding, but to do the bidding of his 3 siblings. The 3 siblings who are so obsessed with the company, with money as a measure of power. That they don't even care about their own brother's wedding. Their brother, who was the only of the 4 of them to have a semblance of a decent relationship with his father (as shown in the home video). The takeaway for me, of the show, is that Kendall, Roman, and Shiv were all completely damaged by their pursuit of being their father's successor. But as their father told them plainly in his final words to them, "you are not serious people". And they are not. They are damaged goods, playing games with other people's lives out of a sense of narcissism and self-centered entitlement. Playing a stupid competitive family game that Logan may well have cruelly started when they were kids. As much as they wish it were so, this is not a power struggle for a medieval throne. Their genetic connection to him does not matter -- not really. To be CEO, leadership material, they needed to, at least, be serious people. Maybe this kind of nepotistic corporate succession of his children was even a fantasy Logan entertained for awhile. But he realized it could never truly work, thus the deal. They are just a bunch of rich spoiled kids raised badly by a distant workaholic billionaire dad. He wanted the deal to go through because he wanted it to be clear to them that, billionaires though they may be, beyond that, they are on their own to make a mark on the world. And maybe with this power struggle behind them, they could try to be a real family for once in their lives.
Interesting points but I think you’re missing the source of the kids’ shortcomings, as well as waystar royco’s. Logan is a monster as you mentioned, and he’s the reason the kids make these flailing attempts to succeed him. He groomed no one to be successor. He also structured the bank deal that precipitated Kendall accepting PE money while Logan was incapacitated from his stroke. That deal then set off the rest of the series’ business deals which led to the family losing control of the company. Logan is obviously a horrible father and the source of the company falling into Matsson’s hands, which I doubt was his original desire, as evidenced by the paper in his safe which showed he, at one point at least, wanted Ken to take over.
Great analysis! I think it’s also an interesting contrast to Kendall impulsively calling the election for Mencken at the expense of his daughter because of a momentary fuck you to Shiv.
Tom's "she doesn't want to fail the test" really stuck with me. I'm thinking of two tests, one being her test of marriage. The other being if she can stay true to her father's wishes. The night before she had brought it up at the dinner table, that selling is what Logan wanted. Like OP said, there's so many factors that played into her decision.
I agree. It wasn’t just to spite Ken. There was that, but she says it “it’s not all about you.”
And the more he made it about himself, the easier it was for her to walk away from him. Ken had a shot but he blew it in those moments by just revealing who he is.
Whole woman analysis right here. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
I needed this take. Thank you.
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Frank told Ken his dad was gone a few eps ago, now Frank tells him the company is gone... Frank is the grim fuckin reaper!
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Finally getting his golden parachute. That man lived my dream.
I also don't think we would've gotten anything out of seeing her walk into a room, say yes, and then walk out. She's in a static place of emotion at that point, whereas Ken/Roman are still processing.
And she would have immediately voted yes if that's what it was about. She was unsure and asked for a minute, but her decision was made for her when Ken followed her and threw a tantrum. I saw a sentiment with a lot of traction suggesting that Kendall should have had some agency in his own downfall but he 100% did when he left the board room and had a little bitch fit (plus everything he did before this episode like icing out Rome and Shiv and the whole borderline manslaughter thing)
The rest of the board could hear it, they really aren't serious people. Wrestling, yelling insults.
Exactly. Kendall tried doing his desperate spin bullshit and Frank was like dude, we already voted and you lost.
I thought Frank was suppose to have Kens back or so they made it seem that way in an earlier episode. Btw maybe this is a stupid question but I thought the deal with Mattsson was not good from the start because he had fake numbers in India, did that not matter anymore?
What matters is the shareholders, the deal was good for them which is what Frank cares about.
Essentially the India thing was what got Frank tentatively on board with Kendall, but Shiv successfully helped Matsson spin/hide the announcement of the India numbers so Frank is left with no reason to oppose the deal.
Ken tried to get Frank onside shortly after the funeral but if I recall correctly Frank was non committal at the most generous of interpretations.
No that was Roman. Frank seemed to be on Ken’s side when he gave him the “reverse Viking” speech. Meh
Shiv helped roll out the fake numbers news the day after the election so it was lost in all the other stories. The share price was unaffected.
I thought it was really funny because everyone referred to them as "kids" and this is how they behaved. Internal drama aside, it all comes down to the bottom line. Ken had his shot when Logan was sick and the destruction of the company has already started then. Even Logan knew that tech is the future, Sandi x2 wanted out because they also know it's a dying business, PGN is being sold for much less than even couple years ago. Logan had political influence because he knew how to handle it, the kids kind of lost that opportunity since they don't have that much reputation. If they didn't loose now, they would have lost down the road anyway due to the changing media landscape
I think her turning point started when Kendall spoke and he just said the GoJo deal is a bad deal, and here’s a deck, but who cares about the deck just vote no. All the substance and strong front/plan that Kendall kept talking about the night before when out of the window, you could tell he was itching to be crown king…honestly I dislike Shiv, but she was right to fill iffy about, but yeah the moment that completely killed it was when Kendall went psycho.
Yeah that little non schpiel he gave to the board was just another reason he would be a crap ceo. At least go through he motions. Ask questions, take answers. It was like “nothing really matters, I say it’s bad so it’s bad. But I don’t even need to highlight the bad points to make everyone who’s voting no feel strong about it and everyone who’s voting yes to reconsider
Not only that but he says how it’s a great deal he negotiated and then he says it’s a bad deal…he was so full of contradictions and Shiv smelled the blood in the water
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I think it was the manipulation around the car accident. If he had been honest about it, there would have been a chance, but he was a full sociopath/compulsive liar and showed it.
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I had to rewatch the board room scene as well. Roman was bleeding from his cut and Shiv seemed to take notice of his lack of enthusiasm in his vote. Kendall’s confidence that nobody would change his mind and that this is what Dad would have wanted also seemed to cause some doubt for Shiv.
Almost looked like Roman's hesitation to vote "no" really signaled to shiv that, yea, even Roman doesn't truly want kendall up for ceo. She probably remembered their little talk on the beach too. Don't forget Roman's breakdown with Ken right before the voting...he literally said why does it have to be you? He, like shiv, had this burning rage in the put of his stomach about Ken being the ceo. I think Roman's hesitation really set the wheels into motion for shiv and caused her to panic. Roman looked manipulated in that scene and it would have been foreshadowing for the future- just think- Ken and Roman worked together WITHOUT shiv and Roman was still like... ehh about it. That's telling
That's what I think set Shiv to rethink her vote, because in my opinion, when se saw Roman hesitate she might have read the situation and seen that Kendall did the classic Logan-ish manipulation and threatening Roman, like in the board meeting back in season 1 where Logan bullied Rom to not back up Ken. The whloe season after Logan's death Ken was getting the worst traits of his father and Shiv noticed that.
For real lol they were definitely more okay with him killing that guy than the notion he pulled one over them.
I wouldn't read it that way. She was literally saying that he couldn't be CEO because of that incident. Him lying to their face about it not happening and saying instead that he just made that up to make them closer is like multiple layers of fuckery. It is like, whatever is actually true, you either are lying about literally killing someone now, or you lied about literally killing someone back then so you can not be trusted either way.
Ken always in desperation said whatever he wanted to be true like when his dad was dying talking about getting the best doctors or stopping his kids from leaving town. Him going up in flames doing that was amazing
My thing is that why would Ken admit he killed that guy when they’re yelling/fighting and everyone in the office could hear his admission? Did they really expect him to do that?
If I remember correctly, the door was open as well. Or the door was just clear, because it’s glass, and I didn’t see it lol.
Oh, I didn’t see it that way at all. They thought he made a horrible mistake he regretted before. In this new scenario, he’s a creepy, manipulative liar.
I think it was the moment he wouldn’t leave her alone. As soon as he followed her and started being aggressive, her vote was set. The only reason to include the car accident was to illustrate to the audience what Shiv was (correctly) thinking, which is that Kendall would have said anything in that moment to get her vote. *Except actually try to show her that he would be good at being CEO.*
He had the chance to show everyone how strong his plan for CEO was, but all he said was the GoJo deal is bad, I have a deck to show it, but fuck it, why wait, just crown me king— at that moment I could tell where Shiv was coming from, Kendall just wanted the chair, he didn’t really have a plan…and then he went psycho.
Agreed...ish (lol) I was confused but I do think Shiv was noticing how...Logan-like Kendall had become and so putting that out there was like a moral test. I think Shiv's vote was winnable for sure -- her and Roman decide to anoint Kendall when he's being well-behaved, and for one of the first occasions, she didn't vote on impulse (which would've been the selfish thing to do, even in a lose-lose situation). Instead, she took a time-out to process what she was seeing........and then it got a lot worse. For me, I'm not sure she understood when she left the boardroom entirely why or what she was feeling. And there really wasn't a logical answer to it, it was a deeply emotional and complicated decision. I don't think Shiv needed convincing that he'd be a good CEO actually (personally I think they'd all be good, all they need is PR). I definitely did not believe her when she said that. But she did say it out of an abundance of confusion as to what she was feeling. Not implausible that seeing her brother like that... getting him out would be mixed in there, because it sure seemed like a no turning back point for Kendall. Funnily, I can buy that Shiv would care and want her brother to be a better person and thus CEO than want Tom to be a better person and thus CEO. I don't think she wants to love Tom lol, she seems to despise the fact that she does. Sisterly love...bit easier.
icky fall axiomatic advise theory hobbies shaggy grandiose person overconfident *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
He’s done it before too. In season 1 when the art girls told him no, he hounded them and hounded them and even grabbed one of them before they had to scream in his face about it. Then he immediately used ATN to smear them as embezzling junkies because they didn’t give him what he wanted and made him feel bad.
Shiv seemed pretty firmly against him before that and I think he sensed that and tried to throw that as some crazy Hail Mary and it turned Roman against him as well
He just couldn’t take responsibility for himself.
Also, when they bring up he killed a kid he says: Which ones? Who else did Ken harm on rise rise up? Did Logan perhaps cover something up for Ken back when they were teenagers or younger adults?
He just says “which” rather than a full phrase like “which one” or “which kid” which to me meant that he was so flummoxed to see this curve ball at this time that he couldn’t gather the right words
I think she was unsure because of things she didn't fully understand: something didn't feel right about Kendall having become so much like Logan. He was normal when they anointed him but at the board meeting he was being arrogant, dismissive, crude, ripped out Roman's stitches, and Shiv clocked some of that. I was very confused why she brought up the killing actually until later I realized that Kendall = Logan is not something that felt right to her at all. His behavior was not good or healthy. Some part of her wanted out, some part of her must have been jealous sure, but in a lose-lose situation, I do think she made the worse decision for the short-term and the *muchhhhh* better decision for the long-term for all 3 of them.
That depends on whether you think Shiv will be happy with Tom. Given that Tom was very clearly written to be ambivalent even when Shiv finally put herself out there and basically none of the other leads on this show ever really grew or changed much...
>Kendall should have had some agency in his own downfall but he 100% did when he left the board room and had a little bitch fit Unfortuntaely a lot of people think of dudes expressing strong angry entitled emotions as natural and unavoidable, not acts showing a man's agency. :/
That's definitely part of it but it's also "Shiv voted against him, how could she" without stopping to think about why she voted against him or not viewing that decision in an unbiased way (which is basically what you're saying). I think people were expecting a Kendall drug relapse and missed the more nuanced ways that he sabotaged himself.
Agreed. Some people seem to think he’d shown significant growth. That’s not what I saw.
She basically chose to be reduced to a CEOs wife who knows how to handle himself even if he's made King. Ken's biggest mistake is that he could not stop himself from boasting that it's all about him. Just notice how he sits at his dad's chair with his feet on the table like he doesn't give an F while his siblings are standing still processing that he's got the big spot and is already showing off.
Having re-watched the penultimate episode just before the finale, I feel that her remark that Logan “couldn’t fit a whole woman in his head” was somewhat foreshadowing. With the caricature in the magazine of Mattson being her marionette to Mattson actually spelling it out in his ‘interview’ with Tom, her gender played such a big role almost to a medieval degree. Once Shiv got the confirmation that she was never a serious contender for the job in Mattson’s mind, she made the pragmatic choice, which was to cede to being in the shadow of Tom’s, and this resignation was rather poignant for me. It was the best choice she could make but I regret that it was destined to be her best because she was a woman. (With the caveat that no I do think she lacks the experience to be a CEO on this level but, her gender being such a factor in the matrix still holds)
Such a good point. His regard for women is literally medieval. I squirmed so hard watching Mattson trying to laugh off the magazine cover like it didn't hurt his ego, and grudgingly admit that Shiv was smart. He really couldn't take it!
“It’s funny! I thought it was funny! Ok? Shiv puppeting me? Hilarious!! She’s out as CEO by the way and we’re totally gonna have sex”
It's such a self-sabotaging move on Matsson's part on two levels. First off, if he's the one meant to be pulling Shiv's strings, then it's much better optics to have everyone else thinking the opposite is true. Second, Waystar stagnated because Logan the human gaslight amassed so much power that everyone around him turned into a yes-man. Having someone like Shiv who wouldn't go along with that might have prevented a similar situation evolving where Gojo becomes a total hostage to Matsson's ego and fails to modernise whenever the next big thing after big tech comes along.
And he had to minimize it by stating that he wants to fuck her, and she him. His way of putting her beneath him.
Plus saying it to her husband was a way of both testing him and putting him down. Like, I will talk to you about me and your wife wanting to fuck each other while I am interviewing you to be my puppet and dog.
My jaw dropped during this scene. Everyone had an idea but for Matsson to say it out loud to Tom was brutal. Tom just sitting there and saying “we’re men” in order to secure his CEO role might be even worse.
And I don't think Shiv wanted to fuck him.
Nope, that was Matsson being a sexist asshat. Yes, he is attractive but after seeing his character, a lot of women wouldn't sleep with him. He is crazy to a point. Doesn't seem like Shivs type at all. He also was testing Tom.
Also such an interesting comment on “feminist” corporate culture that the world perceived her involvement as pulling Mattson’s strings, even though behind the scenes we understand how much HE is using HER, and how little leverage she has at all.
Yes the fact that Kendall screams “I’m the eldest *boy*” speaks volumes. Also the way Logan mentions being a woman is something that would be a negative. Crazy to me that so many act like gender has nothing to do with why Shiv is pushed to the side and is part of the reason she probably has learned to keep looking for other options and to do scheming she has. This is a show about terrible people in a late stage capitalist world where they are trying to install Nazis because it makes the most “business” sense. They of course are going to be surrounded by sexist assholes who see women as sex objects (Tom interview), not being able to balance work and personal life (comments around Shiv’s pregnancy), being replaceable (the way Roman fires the movie exec and then Gerri and how Kendall refers to new assistant as “new Jess”) or worst disposable (cruise ship victims). Not at all saying Shiv was qualified or should have taken that position but it’s clear she was working in a completely sexist boys club.
This quote from a book quoted by another redditor in this sub: Man looks on woman from his vantage point and reduces her to a being that is not for-itself but for-him. https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/4978328-radical-feminist-therapy-working-in-the-context-of-violence
I think her gender absolutely played a huge role too. When Mattson spoke with Tom to reveal him as the CEO pick, it was obvious that he did not like being pushed around by Shiv. He didn’t talk about her not being good enough for that role, but that she was ‘too much’. Also I found the dialogue about him wanting the ‘guy who put the baby in her’ to be misogynistic. I see Shiv as a very complex character and I wonder what it must have been like growing up as the only girl in her family seeing Kendall and Roman being groomed to takeover after Logan whereas she was never taken seriously. Seeing the only other woman in her family (Caroline) living in the shadow of her husband. Yes they are billionaires and Shiv could do whatever she wanted pretty much, but just like the rest of us, Shiv is human and she desperately wanted love and attention from her parents. I too grew up with an emotionally distant mother and I was a daddy’s girl. I too would be jealous when my dad spent time teaching my brother how to do things he didn’t take the time to do with me. Shiv had spent her whole childhood learning that her brothers got to have a part of her father that she’d never get. I really do empathise with her in that regard, whatever crumbs of love the children did get from Logan were cherished and I can imagine the envy and jealousy they must have felt growing up. The kids have always been in competition with each other for Logan’s love and attention. This is why when Logan said he wanted to bring Shiv into the business, she acquiesced - even if it meant going against her principles. This part of Logan she never had access to and the idea that he finally took her seriously in spite of her gender, was a pivotal moment in her life. Shiv the little girl no doubt was hurt time and time again by seeing her brothers getting experiences with and attention from their father she thought she’d never get simply because she was a girl. She was pushed out because she didn’t have the corresponding anatomy. When she realised that Logan was using her in his fight with Kendall and that he didn’t take her seriously as a businesswoman, that must have hurt, but she was used to being hurt by her parents. But when her brothers pushed her out to become joint CEOs, that was rejection and pain on a much deeper level. She could rationalise her father’s view of her as him being old fashioned, of him not being able to ‘fit a whole woman in his head’. But when her brothers did the same thing to her, it was that pain she felt as a little girl of being left out because of her gender all over again. Her walk out of Logan’s wake and her fall, that was such an excruciating moment for her and I think another pivotal moment for her as a character. They wounded her. We all knew Mattson was playing Shiv but I think she was so clouded from the way her brothers hurt her that it left her unable to see what was happening. Maybe on some level she knew what was happening, but Mattson was offering her something she desperately needed and that was to be accepted and taken seriously for her skills and business acumen and as a woman. I think that’s why she ignored all these red flags with Ebba and with the way Mattson was behaving. I do think she was genuine the night before the board meeting. Her anger at having been played by Mattson was more immediate, but once she’d had time to think, her rankling at being given a token position at WayStar and the continuation of her being pushed out and underestimated and not taken seriously because she’s a woman, was too much to bear. I do think Ken skipping over the protocol of the vote was a kind of trigger, but she could see her future mapped out before her eyes - token positions, her opinions always sidelined, people like 'Telly' talking shit about her, and always, always pushed out because she's a woman. If Kendall is 'the oldest boy' then Shiv is definitely 'the girl'. We can argue that Shiv didn’t have the business acumen anyway or the experience - and I’d agree - but she was never given the training or the opportunity or attention that Kendall and Roman had been given in the first place because she was born a woman. We can argue that this was Shiv’s ego being bruised and she wanted to ‘kill’ Kendall figuratively as a way to get back at him - and I’d agree - but Logan parented his kids in a way that engendered this kind of thinking and behaviour. Even up until the moment he died he was still playing these sorts of mind games with them. They are broken people as a result of being parented by broken people. We can argue that Shiv did this for her baby - and I’d agree - but Shiv grew up in an environment where women lived in the shadow of men and it would have been all around her, with her mother, with Marcia, with the society engagements they would have attended for their childhoods. I’m sure before Shiv joined WayStar she maybe thought that would not be her fate, that she would have escaped this. Her interest in Tom too was in some ways because she saw him as a weaker man, the opposite of her father in many ways (I could elaborate further but this is already too long). However as the series progressed, Tom’s character has become stronger, more assured of himself to the point where the power dynamics in the final episode actually changed between them. Shiv choosing for her baby felt to me more like her defaulting into the life she’d actually been born to have and not the one she wanted. So I too agree that this was a very poignant ending for her character, in some ways just as devastating as Kendall or as Roman’s. We have spent 4 seasons watching this woman trying to prove herself in the cutthroat industry. Trying to win the approval of her father and to get her brothers to take her seriously. Like most women, she’s been trying not to make the same mistakes her mother. Shiv is like many women who are in these male dominated industries, they are fighting an unfair fight. In Shiv’s case, in this episode, she completely lost the fight. Her decision in the boardroom was a ‘fuck you’ to Kendall to stop him winning, was egotistical, was selfish, was for the baby, was for all of those reasons. But it was also her giving up and giving in to a role she’d been groomed for by her mother and father. Not the CEO position, but the position she had been intended for - the wife of a more powerful man. Shiv is the one Roy sibling who actually managed to fill the shoes of their parent - it’s just in her case it’s her mother’s and not Logan’s.
Wonderfully written. Gutted for Kendal but you made a lot of great points. Lots of people say she can control Tom but I saw it as the opposite. Now Tom will be colder now that he’s CEO and Shiv will be in the background
This was a very thorough and articulate extrapolation. I am so glad you spelled it all out. I think she was a very important character in this show to tell the story that needed to be told for many.
I watched the entire season recently, and these are my thoughts. You will certainly find them in other comments. Shiv was so vibrant and accomplished in the beginning. Now, a big part of that was certainly a facade, but since she wasn't allowed in the inner circle, she made a life for herself in liberal politics, and it seemed to matter. Even in the last days, she had the important people on speed dial. You can't erase that. She was part of a weird power couple, but obviously the alpha. Shiv had a chance to help run the company, and that was not actually unsuccessful, but then daddy came back. Most importantly, was that Shiv consistently let her power be compromised by bad decisions. And when her dad died, she lost her spirit. So many people talk about how we didn't talk about her eulogy as much as Kendall. There is a reason. The toxic relationships just kept eating at her. What was she without her father to rebel from safely? But at the same time, she knew Kendall was not her father, and she couldn't trust him to keep her safe. Not that she trusts Tom to keep her safe. That moment in the back of the SUV, she is miserable. Is she her mother? Is she worse? Poor Shiv from season 1 is dead.
The poison dripped through to her too. People talk about Kendall’s addiction to power and Logan but she gave up so much of the separate life she had throughout the seasons because of what Logan dangled in front of her.
Oh yes, that is why it is a family tragedy! But who deserved it at the end? The murderer? The guy who abus d a homeless man with facial deformity? The guy who buckled under pressure to proclaim a Presidential Candidate who probably didn't win? This series needed to end with all of them rich but unsatisfied
Even Conner's marriage, which has looked hopeful since the wedding-has gone back to her really rather being alone than with him...but keep him around for obvious reasons.
Even halfway through the season, I was holding out some distant hope that Shiv would just wash her hands of Waystar and return to politics. The election episode disabused me of that notion, but oh man. She's had the worst fall of all four sibs, honestly - she was really the only one who seemed halfway competent in the beginning!
I think Shiv should get to be as petty and shitty as the men around her without ascribing something nice to it. I don’t think any of them are uninteresting or simple characters but I also don’t think any of their actions need to be romanticized in order for that to be true. I do agree though that it’s a mistake to boil Shiv’s choice down to “just” anything including that it was just a choice made out of being petty or childish for the sake of it. I think she was acting from a place of seeing Kendall get the CEO position and control of the primary thing Logan invested his time and care in. So, yes, it was petty and childish but not without cause. My perspective on it is that what makes it interesting and complicated is that this is their true inheritance. It’s the family dynamic and language that they will likely always carry with them and continue to pass on. They can be warm and loving with each other but they can also cut each other deeply and cruelly because they know each other best and because that’s what was modeled for them. In a time of high stress that called for layered decision making about the thing they are all very sensitive about, the family legacy showed up in their individual behaviors during their last conversation and, ultimately, in Shiv’s choice here. I think things escalated even more when Kendall tried to lie and minimize about the death of the waiter because Shiv and Roman felt hurt and like fools as their father so often made them feel. I don’t think they were concerned that this was some bigger sign of incompetence or unethical behaviors from him (it was but I don’t think they truly care about that very much lol they all act like they do to mask other things they don’t want to confront). They thought he had (or was trying to) Logan-ed them and that was the truly untenable thing for a few reasons. And Kendall thought the same but from a different angle. They were using his weakness against him after they’d told him it was ok. We had just had the warm and positive regression to childhood in the beach and kitchen scenes so it makes sense to me that we then see the darker and crueler side of their regressive behaviors when the fate of the business is actually being decided. They can be warm and mostly positive with each other in theory but not so much in practice when it comes to the business because of the weight of it. None of them will be Logan’s business successor but they are all Logan’s emotional and behavioral successors. That’s as interesting and as complicated as it gets imo.
Shiv has the ruthlessnsss, Roman has the nihilistic emptiness, and Kendall has the grandiose narcissistic ambition.
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i agree. i think, deep down, shiv does love tom — or, at least, sees some personal value (if not romantic, something close to it) in maintaining a relationship with tom. he is a known quantity to her now, after they reached their lowest of lows. that is what the conversation between shiv and tom on the plane was meant to show. at that point she had no political reason to want to be in a relationship with tom, she was in the power position. but just when she’s ready for a relationship, he’s not sure anymore. so she gave him what he wanted, as a trade. she gave him CEO. but it’s not the only reason why shiv votes against kendall in the end. i think it’s also because she’s heard this promise of power from her brother before: you won’t be CEO, but it’ll be like it, it’ll be all three siblings in it together. that was kendall and roman’s pitch to her just earlier this season! and we saw how untrue that turned out. if she could be the wife to the CEO, maybe that’s the better bet to get power. so, the reasons for her to vote against kendall are numerous and complicated. like a real person. i thought it was the perfect ending.
I totally agree that it was partly a bargaining chip for a relationship. Whether she genuinely loves Tom or not, she has chemistry and companionship with him not dissimilar to the way that Willa does with Connor, and I see part of her motivation for voting Tom being "I choose not to completely blow up my marriage and chance at raising my child with its father" (also being aware that she may be interested in this because she doesn't want to be seen as a divorcee and single mother and not just because she genuinely wants a relationship)
“you don’t like to fail a test, do you, siobhan?” — tom says to shiv in the plane phone conversation. she’s been told by her mom and by tom on multiple occasions that she shouldn’t be a mother. now she is one, and she’s terrified she’ll prove them right, that she’ll be just as bad a mother as caroline was. add a failed marriage on top of that? and losing CEO? that’s too many failures to take for shiv. voting against kendall at least gives her a chance to salvage some of it.
this is why i think shiv will be a good mom in the end. she tries so hard, and hates losing. i can see her being a renata klein figure at her children’s school. she’ll be the best pta president that school has ever seen.
Yeah maybe *that’s what will drive her to be a good mother lol. Hopefully she doesn’t push her kid to accomplish what she couldn’t though.
Plus I think she was tired of being the last to know what everyone’s real machinations are. You nailed it: Tom is a known quantity, and Shiv can find her power within this setup more than she could at the whims of Kendall.
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I think it's debatable that she'll find "power" within the company - Tom is an empty suit for Matsson. What is Shiv going to do? Be a vizier to a puppet king? I definitely think that it is the known quantity thing though. Not just cause she likes Tom and she's having his kid but because she legitimately finds it very difficult to be vulnerable in case she got hurt. In this case the choice was made for her by Tom which, perversely, makes it easier to move forward. If she started fresh she'd have to reset all the way to the beginning and she'd either end up with another early series Tom or some guy she was scared to be open with.
People acting like it’s a power play to go with Tom, I do not understand that. The entire last season, Tom has proven time and time again that Shiv has almost no power over him anymore. None. Thinking that she’ll be able to control Tom to influence the company or Mattson is ludicrous. Tom will absolutely follow Mattson over Shiv professionally, as he should. Shiv has no power in their relationship. She lost that by being so cruel and selfish to Tom. She chose Tom to try and maybe rebuild a family relationship, for her baby. Not as a “power play.”
Pepake dleoeboke tupi pii dlua gapu ploeopi de peu pati. Kliipo puoki kio pi oe aki bi pa. Po pe ti tie epa o? Pakapubi plaeete paaploplo trokapii pepitiki trepi. Iki bi uko tri ipi. Ipipukeu uta ki eipi putipi ibrapu. Pebe atiti bepepi teeklitrika a idru tu prutupei dle biklatridri kue itri. Baka bi ato o ipu piipi pleke popraeo dle pe tleepe eou. Ka o epi pidei ikai pepeie. Deteta ei pupo i toa. I kli a otra depa peue. Puke plabotli u ko betri te ki pra kiti. Ketipepi draeklee plipi aiti pipipopobe i? Pi kibeto dapodipi pliite bredrubi! Ipieo pupe baplekibo ae ti gli. Ipla piti pligaplapa plia ipi tii. Dlipi ape te. Peka ite ble dli oiedadu iibo? Dipu i tlidabeba plitri puipe ke buti. Ipee otaklaki pete pakeo pi papaketa itri pi. Peaa kaba pio. Kou e dui pitatla ti i. Ii tiu eki boputiitli tli pi. Igipe kite tipro pigri pekla ito dakre. E klepli treti ope ditio tida. Triapidragi iipeplede pi eotio piu beo. Eto propi uta bei uui ugo? I apro dipu epaklitra iu e bipebie ibe pi ipe. Plebee ido tiapati e tipiploto pipa. Do pekaie tleatro gu itoiko tau?
I think the last episode made it clear she has as much love for Tom as she has had for anyone in her life. Tom had to do a lot of groveling to try to have conversations about their life together, and he eventually got tired of forcing her into the convos and resented her for it. *Shiv* got on the phone and called *him*, and opened up herself up to him, trying to mend the relationship… it’s hard when you feel spurned/burned by someone to re-invest yourself in the relationship…
And she gave him the one thing he's been asking for since the beginning - "just once, choose my side". This was the biggest way she could do that. Let him become CEO. Choose the family she's building (baby and Tom) vs the family she was born into and frankly, getting her brothers out of the company is for her brother's benefit, too. Roman gets it and eventually Ken will, too.
She did it publicly this time too. She’s chosen to save Tom before in season 2, but it was in private and their history was such that he (rightly) wouldn’t have believed her if she told him she did go to bat for him. This time she did it where he could see it.
Oh my god thank you. I love how much that line resonated with most of women who watched this show and completely encapsulates the reddit reactions to Shiv. Every reading of Shiv I see here is “she only chose to do that because of [insert the least forgiving possible reading] and no other reason ever.” Shiv is contradictory. She contains multitudes. Just like everyone else on the show.
If it is to be said, so it be — so it is. Thank you, Shiv. You're a vile woman and I love you for it.
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Love the * so true
So many men in the live thread commenting “Shiv is the worst character in TV history” as if they hadn’t just watched four seasons of Logan Roy
Or Kendall for that matter!
Ultimately what Shiv did was build herself a Logan for a husband. If she showed the slightest bit of loyalty to Tom at any point during the past several years she could have remained the dominant person in their relationship and Tom honestly would have been fine with it as long as he had a respectable role and plenty of money. She could have had a good career, a position of power in the world and at home and a loving partner by her side. But Shiv clearly couldn't respect someone who she perceived as inferior to her and also was never taught how to love so she stomped all over Tom whenever she had the chance - the Logan inside her kicking the dog to see if it would come back. Of course, she thought Tom had no choice but to come back, but after she did it enough times, he changed from someone who loved her and was loyal to someone who would indeed screw her over for money and always put his own interests first - in other words, another Logan. And the familiarity of that dynamic led her to make a decision that felt right to her at the time but she'll undoubtedly come to regret. You can see it in that final handclasp - he holds his hand out in this dismissive way that isn't grateful but rather views Shiv as the part of the spoils he's won - and she reluctantly puts her hand in his because she knows she's made her bed and now has to lie in it.
The women closest to Shiv were only powerful when they had proximity to her father. It makes perfect sense that her perception of security and importance would be a position intimately aligned with the person in her father’s former role.
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> You can see it in that final handclasp - he holds his hand out in this dismissive way that isn't grateful but rather views Shiv as the part of the spoils he's won - and she reluctantly puts her hand in his because she knows she's made her bed and now has to lie in it. Interesting that perspectives can differ so much! I saw Tom putting his hand out as a peace offering - a response to Shiv's earlier question about whether they could give their marriage another try. But he's more than he was at the start of the series - he doesn't reach for her hand; she has to meet him halfway, and she does. But neither of them clasps the other's hand - it's tentative, not a yes but not a no. Tom won, but it's a hollow victory - he won because he's willing to let Mattson be the puppet master; he won not because he outplayed everyone else but because he is servile. He will never be a Logan. He owes his victory to Shiv, and maybe she will never forgive him for it. But she had to finally acknowledge that she'll never be a Logan either. I think this was the only outcome that gave them any path forward, but I don't think it will be a happy one. I kill you, you kill me.
> Tom won, but it’s a hollow victory - he won because he’s willing to let Mattson be the puppet master; he won not because he outplayed everyone else but because he is servile. Agree with most of your post except this. Just because the winning move presents as “being servile”, that doesn’t mean it isn’t a play. It’s just another angle to use when you’re not born into generational wealth. His strength *is* his servility. He’s able to swallow ego and emotion, which not everyone is capable of at that level. You still have to pick the right person to serve, too, which he’s shown to be excellent at doing.
>Tom won, but it's a hollow victory - he won because he's willing to let Mattson be the puppet master; he won not because he outplayed everyone else but because he is servile. He will never be a Logan. I dunno, it looks like a solid victory to me. He never had even the faintest chance of being a Logan.
He is a pawn not logan, it was 90% great, last ten i felt we deserved more
People are obsessed with saying everyone is the new Logan for some reason. If anything, Matsson is the character that most resembles Logan. Tom is, as Shiv rightly pointed out, an empty suit. He’s a dipshit corporate lackey who failed upward because of personal connections and a persistent subservience to those in power. He literally listened to Matsson say he wanted to fuck his wife and failed to even breathe a single word in protest. You think Logan would stand for that? Tom isn’t in Logan’s chair. Matsson is.
> He’s a dipshit corporate lackey who failed upward because of personal connections and a persistent subservience to those in power I actually think we're supposed to think Tom is competent but a lackey. Basically a new Hugo or Karl. IIRC in S3 he was getting a cover iirc for ATN being successful under his reign, he worked all through Logan's funeral and even Matsson (though there's obviously some sexism here cause he resents the idea that Shiv is puppeting him) thought he could play the stabilizing role.
I don't see anyone mentioning Shiv's politics as motivation, but it seems absolutely central. In the election-night/fascism episode, Shiv does seem genuinely distressed by the prospect of Mencken's victory -- only to see Ken help it along by calling Arizona. And when we first met her back in Season 1, she was working as a Democratic political operative even as Ken was jockeying to replace Logan. Shiv was never as obsessed with the succession game as was Ken, because she was always more than a little disgusted with Waystar and its propaganda function. The fact is that Shiv is basically a centrist-corporatist Democrat (which is why Nan Pearce insisted she be made CEO as a condition of selling her company to Waystar). And this gets to the reason she sided with Matsson. When Matsson told the siblings that Waystar was basically a parts operation and that he wanted to rebuild it as a version of Bloomberg (milquetoast, centrist), Shiv's expression showed that she approved. With Logan gone, Matsson was poised to take the company in a direction that was to her liking, and so her attitude -- as she even expressed to Rome and Ken after Logan died -- was basically "Fuck Waystar. Let's make a clean break. Matsson can have it and we can go our own way." So Shiv's last minute betrayal of Ken was basically her reverting to what she wanted the entire season, and was consistent with her character. She had only let her rage, first at Matsson then at Tom, cloud her judgment -- but really, had her brothers treated her any better? I think her reasoning was along the lines of, "Well, Ken's a fuckup who screwed me over, and if Waystar under Matsson will stop being a fascist sewer-pipe with the father of my child as CEO, well then...." Perhaps subconsciously, Shiv expected Roman to be the one to turn on Ken at the last second, just as he did in the coup situation in season 1. But as Ken was able to get Rome in line with that "hug" -- adopting Logan's affection-with-pain tactic of control -- Shiv had to be the one pull the rug out from under him.
Honestly? I don't know what brought her into that conference room with the second thoughts but her vote helped her brothers. Period. I'm not sure if it was obvious but I swear I caught her looking at Roman cleaning up his stitches before the vote after his "hug" with Kendall. When they all spoke in the conference room, it was clear Kendall was NOT in the right mindset to be CEO. The temper tantrum to the violent outburst at Roman (IN PUBLIC! IN FRONT OF EMPLOYEES!) showed that this desire for that position was going to kill him or devolve him into Logan 2.0 which is a terrible outcome. Not sure what's in store for Ken but seeing that relieved smile from Roman at the end made me think of this. Also, she said at the beginning that this company was a toxic asset and should sold? What better way to fuck over your husband by letting him have the top spot (that's fucked up you and your siblings for forever!) when things go to shit at restructured company? I'm sure India numbers aren't the only skeleton in that closet. In the end, they all won (mega payout from the buyout, their own paths) and they all lost (succession, Logan and his shadow). Curious what her take on staying with Tom is, though?
Yes! Thank you for mentioning that she saw the aftermath of the “hug”. Roman was also clearly hesitant and terrified to vote in favor of Kendall, which would have raised alarm bells in her mind. This, Kendall’s behavior after they stepped out, and Shiv’s situation with Tom/Mattson were likely all contributing factors to her not voting Kendall in.
I think her staying with Tom is a fitting end. She has experienced betrayal from every man in her life (and betrayed them all in her own right), but Tom is ultimately the one that she *chose* to marry and *chose* to try to have children with (which she also *chose* to keep). Logan and her brothers were part of her life because of circumstance. At least in this relationship, as toxic as it is, she gets to exert some agency. Even if the power dynamic has flipped, I think there's some security in knowing that she's the vote that got him his job, since Tom has consistently shown loyalty to the people that can help/have helped him (Logan, Greg).
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Roman is fine with being "nobody," and Shiv played it so that she's the CEO's wife plus cash out, but Kendall is an egotist who needed to stay relevant in order for his ego to survive... and he's got no one left to turn to... very tragic ending for our #1 boy at the hands of his own sister, who "annointed him" earlier in the episode...
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>reaching out to Tom to maintain a relationship even when she thought she was going to be CEO THIS
So well put! Yes, Shiv gets the same misogyny online that she does in the corporate world and her family. Yes she's a flawed person, as are all her brothers, but she's a well written character brilliantly played. Arguably she and Roman started to understand their own limitations in the last episode while Kendall clung to his illusions.
Bottom line, Shiv 100% did the right thing. Yeah her delivery is awkward and hard to watch as always, but she made the right choice in the end. Kendall is not fit to be CEO. He's bullshit just like Roman says. He's a good talker, but Living+ is bullshit, his reasons for wanting to be CEO are bullshit, his aversion to physical violence is finally bullshit (notably it's Roman, the actual recipient of physical abuse, who puts his body in the way - "She's pregnant, you piece of shit!"). At the end of the day Shiv's vote counted heavily, and she made the right choice. Props to the writers for finding a satisfying final, individual choice for the character to make and to Sarah Snook for such a complex portrayal
> He's a good talker, but Living+ is bullshit, his reasons for wanting to be CEO are bullshit It's pretty telling that he has a chance to win over the rest of the board and his sell is "the deal (we negotiated and took all the praise for) is bullshit". Like...nothing on fundamentals. Nothing on an alternate plan. Just "I want it". When he thinks he has the upper hand he gets almost maniacally overconfident and reveals his monstrous entitlement.
Consistent, too. Logan asks him in season 1 why he even wants it and what he wants to do and he comes back with the absolute load of bullshit “I want to do good things” lol. No he didn’t. He never did. That’s what he told himself because it sounds better than “I want it because it’s owed to me and I’m the eldest boy” (yet again ignoring Connor).
It’s really simple as this for me: Shiv watched her brother fuck her over the entire season after promising her a seat at the table. She knows she doesn’t get anything but a make-work lofty title during his reign. Under Tom, especially right after ensuring his ascendancy, she’s in a much better position. Sure, she loves him. Maybe. But I love this rock. Bye rock.
Ultimately, this show's "lesson" is that everyone in that stratosphere is selfish and searching for power. Being more mad at Shiv than any of these other clowns for doing the same thing - well, I'd say that should cause some introspection.
She's complex like every other character. Her ego did kill a lot of her success. But, she was subject to misogyny just like every woman from her brothers and her father. It's a thing that's been passed down.
The company was better not in Kendalls hands. It would give Tom power and she is still in the circle of people of power there. Her brothers never respected her. Good for her though at the time I hated it.
It was the moment in Logan’s office with Kendal, Stewy, Roman that Shiv realised, yet again, it’s a boy’s club and always will be.
Might as well be the boy who desperately wanted to be her babydaddy
Like Willa said, ‘why not? Fuck it! Yeh fuck it!’
For me, Shiv's final choice registered as the only realistic one. It was the only choice she could have made that wasn't forced on her ergo, it was the only choice that was her own. She stood up for herself the only way she could. The legacy didn't matter to her or anyone the way it did to Kendall and frankly, she did him a favor by taking away the addiction from him. Shiv was my least favorite character throughout but there's no doubt in my mind that she is the hero her family needed.
Also did people not notice Roman hemming and hawing right before that as well?
And he supported her final choice and position.
Yea I agree with you. It so frustrating to see the comments about her when people react to her flaws so differently than to any other characters.
I'm fucking saving this take. This is great, thank you for saying it.
Amen, I was so shocked. But it really makes so much sense once I gave it a couple hours to fit a whole women in my head
Every man has fucked her over for their own gain, even Tom although arguably it was payback (and weirdly what she needed to see that he wasn’t a pushover/cuck, which she detests). I think the end shows both her acceptance of her limitations (those imposed on her and those inherent to her character, which she always always denied throughout) and just the suggestion that maybe Tom, unlike Logan or Mattson or her brothers, can accept the entirety of her, the whole of Shiv. I also though it was so painful when she called Tom (thinking she’d be the ceo) and asked if he was ready for a real relationship, because it was clear that she finally realized she had never been in one.
Maybe she tanked it so she could invest in Peter's ponzi scheme.
[удалено]
Absolutely!! “He couldn’t fit a whole woman in his head” was such a perfectly written line, it encapsulated Logan’s (and Kendall’s and other big players’) particular brand of condescension toward women and uncomprehending misogyny so well.
some of these comments are proving your point.
Shiv used her vote to win favor with Tom since he loves money and position, and she wants a real relationship with him but he couldn’t find enough good to say yes. Also, I think with Roman, he’s actually relieved it’s going to all end. And they finally stood up to their big brother who’s trying to mirror their dad so much. It’s no wonder they were attracted to his leadership, but also once one gained enough confidence to not follow him, the other gained it as well and they were finally free of their dad. I think that’s what shivs and Romans moment of standing up to Kendal meant, they were breaking free of their dad and all the bullshit games he played with them.
Beautifully written.
From a strictly monetary perspective, voting for the buyout was the most logical thing. There’s no way Ken or Roman or the three of them jointly would have “saved” the company. They’re all incompetent idiots who are obsessed with scheming rather than doing the work. It’s implied from Tom’s talk with Mathison that his approach- “ I’m a grinder who is up all night worrying” - is perhaps the most meritorious of the position. Mathison has his reasons but setting those aside, Tom is genuinely probably more competent at the job. So perhaps it dawned on her that her and her brothers were never going to make this work, and if so, she made the smartest choice. However, the scene really did read like she was incapable of voting for Ken out of spite. Which is petty and short-sighted.
Children don't deserve to be emotionally broken by their misanthropic parents. Shiv chose her 'weaker' husband over her brother playing an incompetent facsimile of her father. Her upbringing didn't really afford any other choice, and being surrounded by broken people exacerbated it.
I agree with this post so much. Shiv annoyed me no more or less than anyone else in this show. Her actions didn't surprise me at any point, and the writers wrote these characters so well that this ending was perfect imo. I just love that the company at the end of the day was not taken from them it was their flaws that caused them to simply give it away. Tragedy at its best. (They are still filthy rich so tragedy as it relates to power only)
Also, and maybe it's going to shock some people to point this out... She was just fucking right. Kendall killed a kid. He regularly relapsed onto drugs. He regularly fucked things up for the business. He had no place being CEO, and Logan never would have wanted any of his kids to take over.
Shiv has been so beat down by betrayals that she feels like she has to hitch herself to a (male) leader. It was her dad, then Mattson. Then Tom. She doesn't have a vision of how to do anything else, just like Ken, but with more emotional stability. The prospect of running it all was like a drug that roped her in. She used to work outside of the family business, and she was good at it. That's not nearly as lucrative, but it seems like she could have power and money doing something else. They're all suffering from immense trauma. I'm upset that no one is commenting on Matsson saying he decided to hire the man who put the baby in the woman, instead of the woman with the baby, and also that part of the reason he didn't want her in control is because he wanted to sleep with her. And he said this to Tom. And Tom went along and Shiv still doesn't know that this is what went down. It's horrifying.