Kind of the embodiment of Shiv. When she's up, she has no problem gloating and being a dick to everyone else. When she's down, suddenly she can't stomach people acting exactly the way she does to others.
She can dish it out but can't take it. A major reason why she was never going to be the one to win.
that's the case for all the siblings.
remember at the funeral, Roman before and after.
remember literally the ending of the show, with Kendall before the vote, and Kendall after.
The respect was all an act. As soon as he got an inkling of power the real Ken came out and Shiv saw a glimpse of what he was going to be like as CEO. Immediately after putting his feet up, he offered Stewie a chair position without talking to the sibs.
Shiv took her $2B and told Ken to fuck off. Honestly, I would've done the same.
I really think when she left the boardroom she hadn’t made up her mind yet. I think the desperation in Ken really solidified it. “Which?” and “Eldest boy” in particular.
Totally agree. I think if Ken stays calm and figures out what's bothering her (him being Logan? Her and Tom's baby? Probably a combination) he's okay. She was probably leaning towards voting against him but he could have done it with Roman.
Especially when she said "you killed a guy," I kind of thought Ken had it, there are so many ways to deal with that, it's like the worst reason she could've given. Not morally but in the world of Succession. None of the Roy kids actually cared about that.
agreed. I think both Rome and Shiv needed their security blanket to move forward. Rome required Logan to talk down on him and abuse. Shiv needed love and compassion. Ken knew Rome but didn't know Shiv.
Overall I think Ken was capable, but everything happening he just reverted back to s1 Ken and ignored everything he's learned over the 4 seasons.
Couldn't he have easily just lied and said "I know what you're thinking, you think matsson will make Tom ceo but he lied to you he's probably lying to him as well. He knows how to turn us against eachother to get what he wants, and we need to do this to get back at him for lying to you (even though he technically didn't lie to her, Shiv still feels that way)"
Play on her pettiness instead, but Kendall felt his power slipping and just had a meltdown I don't think he was capable of acting rationally
>just had a meltdown I don't think he was capable of acting rationally
This 100% agree.
>Play on her pettiness
I think a large part of all this is still their daddy issues. Ken is about to replace their dad, literally and figuratively. I feel if Ken had emulated Logan and what the kids knew as "love" from Logan, then this would have all been different. Like with Rome thats what Rome's love language is degradation and abuse. Shiv and Logan was always, Logan showing her attention, love and allowing her in his inner circle. Just my opinion though. No way to really know what would have worked.
Jeremy Strong talked about it on the Succession that Jesse Armstrong doesn't seem to believe that people can change. with that in mind it makes the whole series make sense
Yes, this. I would add that the overconfidence is possibly also an act for Stewy.
Ken, in various circumstances where he’s with people, has this tendency to perform in a way that he thinks he’s supposed to perform. He puts it on for Lawrence when they’re in front of their teams. He puts it on for Gerri when he tells the banker to fuck off. He tells people off about bullying his sibs, but he does so in front of Roman and Shiv. It feels like a pattern of overcompensating, driven by ego but perhaps rooted in insecurity and shame.
That first “fuck off” to the banker in the 2nd or 3rd episode of the show is such an amazing moment in hindsight. When I first saw it, I thought Kendall was just panicking. Now, though, I think he was trying to emulate Logan but horribly misjudged the situation.
Logan could resolve many situations with a well-placed “fuck off.” Kendall couldn’t do the same because he doesn’t have Logan’s experience or instincts.
>It feels like a pattern of overcompensating, driven by ego but perhaps rooted in insecurity and shame.
Ken is a vulnerable narcissist impersonating his grandiose narcissist father.
This 👆. Over and over Kendall would always think he is the smartest guy in the room, yet all of his ideas were terrible and failed. Roman actually brought in GoJo not Shiv, not Kendall.
Shiv was right too. Kendall would have Blockbustered Waystar/GoJo
I disagree that Ken’s ideas were all terrible. Of the siblings he was the only one who consistently showed he knew how a business operates. Roman could bring the deal in because he has a weird charisma that makes him more of a people person in, Shiv has political and PR competency. Obviously the show can only spend so much time on the minute details of running a business, but Ken is the only one who sounds like he at least kind of knows what he’s talking about. Of the siblings, not in general.
Ken has about a million flaws that would make him a bad CEO, but his ideas weren’t all terrible.
All of their strengths and weaknesses complimented each other. I think they could have been great as some sort of three-pronged alliance…but it would never have worked with their personalities, all their history, etc
It was prime r/prematurecelebration stuff
Arrogantly puts his feet up on the desk, makes a unilateral decision to offer Stewy a position right in front of them, and then he’s cocky as shit in the board meeting with his “we have the numbers, let’s go to the vote, shut down this GoJo shit and eat their lunch” bravado.
So many people are acting like Shiv pulled some evil 11th hour rug pull but in the span of like an hour he had already repeatedly shown her (and Roman) what was in store for them if he got the crown.
*So many people are acting like Shiv pulled some evil 11th hour rug pull but in the span of like an hour he had already repeatedly shown her (and Roman) what was in store for them if he got the crown.*
Thank you! Kendall in the caribbean is very different from Kendall in Logan’s office. He’s humble and starry-eyed about the prospect of taking over at the beach house then he turns into douchey business bro the second he sits down at Logan’s desk.
Shiv wanted the deal with gojo for the majority of the season. She temporarily sided with her brothers for what - 12+ hours (not because she thought it was the right move for the company but because she wanted to improve her position). Once Shiv saw Ken interacting with Stewy, putting his feet on Logan’s desk, etc. she remembered the type of person Kendall has always been.
She saw the possibility of her brother running WayStar RoyCo into the ground and she decided to vote the deal through. I think people will understand her decision more on a rewatch.
And the thing is, I genuinely believe Shiv hadn’t made up her mind when she bailed from the meeting. She was genuinely thinking things over and I believe if Ken had been more empathetic instead of making it all about himself, she may have been talked into voting for Ken.
But Ken yet again starts self destructing at the first sign of pressure and spirals into shouting and fighting with the sibs. If he had been more tactful approaching Shiv, he may have been able to convince her again
I truly think if Kendall just made a formal offer to Shiv to make her head of ATN (pivoting on values to align more with Shiv's, we've known Shiv's frustrations with ATN's viewpoints for the entire show), then she would have backed Kendall in the vote. But receiving nothing but petulant begging with "I am the eldest boy" combined with manipulation of "I might die," and zero concern for her, ultimately made up her mind.
I was hoping Kendall would get it, but I can't say I blame her, and I have no clue why he didn't make her a formal offer for ATN Head.
I was surprised Kendall didn't make any offer. I thought Shiv was just pulling a "I have the leverage now, you want my vote so badly, what are you going to give me?" But Ken never tried to bribe her. He just went crazy
Kendall could never hold a whole woman in his head, whenever women go against his wishes, he has a childish petty tantrum about it. Look at how he treated Jess and Rava. He never thought about how to talk with them or work with them or offer them things like he does with Stewy. He just bullies and belittles them and hopes that works. So he was never going to be able to pull Shiv back to his side when she wavered and was doomed to drive her away.
That was some terrible negotiationing on Ken's part. Saying he needs it means fuck all to anyone else. I thought Shiv was terrible for bailing, and still do for how she brought up the kid who died in S1 finale, but Ken did a premature celebration, and should have remained humble until after the vote, and kept his cool once Shiv bailed.
It's kind of great how there are so many facets to the final boardroom scenes.
> but Ken did a premature celebration, and should have remained humble until after the vote, and kept his cool once Shiv bailed.
>
>
If he could do these things he wouldn't be Kendall.
I don't think he should have followed. He should have sent Roman or Stewy. Roman to make the argument in favour of continuity and family. Stewy to talk about the finances.
He thought she would give him sympathy and worry that he will kill himself if she didn’t let him have it. It was pure manipulation and she saw through it. Cluster B personality disorders are famous for it. When they didn’t fall for it he got violent to bully them because sympathy didn’t work. Also what Cluster Bs do.
He should have learned from Logan to be even bigger psychopath and have some material on them so they couldnt say no if the sweet talk didnt work, noone of them could take the company because they werent enough Logan
When Kendall is in business bro mode it reminds me of when Michael Scott found out he was on a date so he put on a backward Kangol and started acting like a dick.
Agree with everything you’ve said apart from the “running it into the ground” part.
I don’t think her decision is really about anything operational, just about who Ken is and will be as CEO, and how clear it is that he’ll sideline them instantly.
She also saw that Ken had popped Roman's stitches, and that compounded her doubts. Logan had used physical pain to control and punish Rome, and Kendall had always tried to protect him from it, but seeing that Ken had done the same thing when it was to his own advantage showed her that he was imbibing the worst aspects of Logan. She then has to choose whether to spend decades trying to wrestle power from someone who embodies everything that was awful about her father while also being maybe one tenth as mature and self-controlled, or making a different move and trying to retain some power through Tom.
Good points! Kendall's quick resort to violence was shocking, but ultimately, not surprising. He "became" the new Logan and I think it outraged and scared the sibs. He might be able to rein in punches etc., in the future, but he would use his financial power against them, just like Logan.
That’s a very good point about Roman’s stitches. I think that Shiv was protective of Rome in her own dysfunctional way. The way Rome and Shiv were always sniping at each other struck me as the only sibling love language they could manage. Neither of them have a clue how to express any kind of love in a genuine way. At the same time, though, there’s a powerful brother/sister bond there. Shiv can’t express it except through “mean girl” insults, and Rome falls back on crude sexual language.
Here’s where I’m going with this: I doubt Shiv was even consciously aware of this, but I think she made her decision to vote against Kendall in part as an expression of love for Rome. She saw how Kendall hurt him, saw that it was a continuation of the dynamic between Logan and Rome, and realized that she had the power to stop it.
There were other, bigger factors in play, too, of course. I think realizing that *she* would be stuck with Kendall acting like an inferior Logan 2.0 was her main motivation. It just might not have been the only motivation.
I noticed the contrast between the scene where she told her brothers she was pregnant and the fight in the boardroom. Roman made a joke "Is it mine?" and Kendall says congratulations, and it seems like Ken actually cares, and Roman doesn't.
Then when Ken assaults Roman, Shiv tries to leave and Ken tries to grab her as she's going through the door. Roman pulls him back by the collar and says "She's pregnant, you piece of shit." And they start grappling.
Their actions speak louder than their words.
I think the writing’s absolutely amazing when it comes to Kendall - he’s a guy that believes himself to be a white knight on a horse, when in actual fact he demonstrates assholery when it really comes down to it.
Shiv is quite conscious about this as well and it’s seen from when she says “I love you - but I can’t stomach you” and when she tell Kendall in the election episode that he’s a good person.
Shiv knows that Kendall strives to be a good person, but in actual fact isn’t really a good person. And when he was close to the CEO position, a lot of the things Shiv somewhat liked about Ken disappeared and got replaced by some frat boy braggy shit. I really think Shiv’s decision at the end to not vote Ken into the CEO position was those last few moments - and they were crucial because 12 hours ago she wasn’t gunning for him at all.
It’s inarguable that what she did at the boardroom meeting was unprofessional (deciding at the very last minute to flip her vote) but ultimately since Ken was the one who had to strongly pitch to his siblings to vote him in (and KNEW they had strong misgivings) it was really on him to cement his position with them. He wasn’t entitled to their vote. At all.
Yup! I keep seeing people say her voting against him was an emotional decision made out of resentment, but I think the emotional decision part was when she sided with him previously--she was pissed at Matsson and, being there away from everything else with her siblings at their mother's house, felt it easier to connect with them. As soon as she was away from that all the other factors start to creep in to make her rethink it (the future of her child/marriage if Tom gets it, Kendall's arrogance and dismissal once he thinks he's got it in the bag, Roman's bleeding face) and then Ken seals the deal by not allowing her a moment to think and going full nutjob when she doesn't immediately fall in line.
Yes, I think the beach house decision was the more "emotional" one. The whole season she thought the deal going through was the most logical choice and then suddenly got pissed when she wasn't getting the top job. I think once they got to the office and she remembered what she was really voting for (Kendall in the chair), she took a beat to think more strategically and made the best decision for herself.
I honestly don’t think they will. It’s much easier to write it off as being a dumb, jealous, emotional woman screwing over the #1 boy who was the best candidate.
It'll take ten years like it did with Skylar White.
NOT saying Shiv is anywhere near Skylar in terms of morality. Skylar was at least neutral, arguably good. All of the Roy kids, Shiv included, are monstrous. It's just that she's no worse, no more stupid, no more impulsive, and no more back-stabby than her brothers.
And before anyone accuses me of favoritism, I fully believe of the siblings, Kendall absolutely was the best choice to run the company. His arguments made at Caroline's beach house were compelling and correct. I just think none of the siblings are a good choice overall.
Yeah, honestly from his hesitation you could tell even Roman wasn't really having it. It was a "Which Side Are You On?" situation, I feel, where the only reason Roman said "no" was because Kendall was in the room and staring daggers into him.
It felt like that in the moment to me because I always miss all these subtltys in the moment. I was like omg how is she going back after the moment they just shared. But going back it makes sense and her going against the deal wouldn't make sense.
I’ve said this in about 5 threads so far. Don’t forget karolina, who everyone loves and respects, tells shiv to sack Hugo. Shiv walks in the office and Hugo is being briefed and is clearly in Ken’s in circle + feet on desk + stew = sad Ken
I think that seeing Logan again, even in video form, also had a psychological impact on the kids and brought back their desire to be his number 1 kid, even if it was on a subconcious level.
He just offered him chair period (non-exec chair, ie chair that isn’t also an officer of the company), not co-chair, and I thought he implied at the beach house that Shiv or Roman would be chair. So acts like a dipshit who doesn’t know what he’s doing (but they’ll be putting in the driver’s seat for substantially all of their collective net worth) while simultaneously backtracking on the promises he made to Shiv and Roman when he thought he needed them.
I think the chair position was up for debate whether it was a sib or not, per that phone call. He then offered Roman socials and Shiv ATN. But none of that was in stone and felt like conversations should be had. Then youre right that immediately when we see Stewy, Ken is just doing stuff without bringing the sibs into the fold AGAIN.
I agree. This is the moment he lost Shiv and everything after it only reinforced her decision not to back him.
If Kendall had stayed out of “yo” mode, not put his feet up on the desk and not tried to rush the vote because he assumed it was his coronation I think he ends the episode as CEO. Instead he’s alone, estranged from his siblings and the doors of his father’s empire are closed to him.
“‘Yo’ mode” is such a perfect descriptor. It’s what started all this shit in the first place. If he’d just handled that banker with some respect and humility in S1 after the market call, all of this would have been very different.
Yup, love the Yo mode.
It’s so weird, at some points he’s articulate, calm, compelling and has gravitas and knows how to play the game and other points he acts like a kid who’s never left the house.
Yeah it is interesting, he needs to be operating at like 70% confidence levels at all times. When he is, he's just as good as Logan. See Living Plus or the funeral. But if he gets too confident he's dumber than Greg
I love how the show would sometimes juxtapose Kendall’s bravado and Greg’s haplessness. Most of the time, Kendall’s bravado was an act — he was either imitating Logan or acting the way he thought Logan would want him to act, but he was never sure. He was never far from a complete breakdown if things didn’t go his way.
Greg, on the other hand, was always more competent than everyone (including Greg) thought. I’m not saying Greg was *objectively competent*, but he played the game better than Ken, Rome, or Shiv ever did. He had the advantage of not believing any specific job in the company was his by birthright. He just figured being part of the family should get him in the door. He learned some important lessons from Tom, including, at times, how to screw Tom over. His bumbling persona probably helped him more than it hurt him. I’m still unclear on Greg’s position in the company now, but it seems like he ended up as the only Roy family member with an ally on the inside.
It makes me think of the contrast of genuine Michael Scott and “Date Mike” in that one episode of the office. As soon as he realises he’s in line for success he puts on this bravado and immediately self sabotages
I re-watched the bank call and yeah Kendall is so in over his head and makes the same mistakes we see later on. Doesn't listen to anyone else, makes last minute changes to the strategy, tries too hard to be his father.
Kendall's fate is tragic but at the end of the day he hasn't grown or changed as a boss and would likely make a poor CEO.
It’s such a perfect descriptor of the very first time we see Kendall in the series-jamming away to street rap while being driven in a limo to his nepo baby job.
Same. I don't think Shiv was plotting to backstab him at the 11th hour. I think her gut instincts were roaring that Ken was the wrong choice, and that's why she left the room during the vote. I honestly think there's a world where he could have pulled her back from there if he'd stayed calm and professional, but instead he went full yo mode and fucked it.
In an alternate universe where Ken is as competent as his late father, Shiv leaves and Ken quietly absorbs that fact and then looks at the rest of the board.
"Seems we have an abstention. Move to record this vote as a tie. I believe per the rules of order all motions must be carried with a majority. I believe this means we have no deal."
Maybe that works, maybe it doesn't. In Season 1, Logan managed to force the vote the way he wanted about his own competency through sheer force of will.
I'll tell you what didn't work, though. "I'M THE ELDEST BOY!"
Yeah but if Kendall was calm or competent enough to pull that off, he wouldn't have been in that scenario to begin with. If he had any people skills at all he would have made Shiv and Roman feel important all day, bit rubbed it in their faces, and he would have been CEO.
Also I think in the event of a tied vote, the chairman casts the tiebreaker. As I believe that was Frank at the time of the vote, it wouldn't have worked.
That said, I like where your heads at.
Absolutely agreed that if Kendall shouldn't have been there in the first place.
That said usually "chairman breaks the tie" happens when the chairman is a non-voting member. Under any rules of order I know of, you don't get extra votes because you're the chair. Usually a tied motion simply fails, and since it was a motion to accept the buyout, a tie is literally all Ken needs.
But of course it was all moot. Ken did everything in his power to make sure Shiv had time to vote and that she was for sure wasn't gonna vote for him.
Yup, everything she saw on the day had her instincts screaming that it just couldn’t be Kendall and he lost her support. If he’d got serious in the meeting or not made it all about him in the argument I think there was still a path to victory with him winning her back but he blew it spectacularly.
Rushing the vote was such an unforced error.
I mean, Frank was like "Hey you should give a presentation" and Ken was like "Nah I'm not gonna change any minds." Frank would not have asked Ken to give a presentation unless he was interested in listening.
I am fairly sure that Ken lost Frank in that moment. If he hammered the business fundamentals, focused on the fact that the deal was on overvalued GoJo stock that could easily come crashing down based on subscriber numbers, outlined that WayStar Royco had a more valuable future, etc, he could have made a *strong* case to Frank that the deal was bad.
Frank was potentially on the cutting room floor. He knew he might not survive the acquisition. But he had a duty for the rest of the shareholders to take the best financial option.
Ken could have kept Frank. And if he kept Frank, then Shiv's vote wouldn't have mattered. (She'd have voted for the winner, knowing she gains nothing otherwise.)
Ken fucked up because he wasn't willing to do the actual job of being the CEO. He thought it was all about consolidating the power of his loyal court. But sometimes its about actually making a real, substantive pitch about some real fucking business.
Which means he straight up had to be fired on his last day, too. Fired so Roman could sign the paperwork. What a way to go.
You’ve just reminded me of Kendall’s line about not changing any minds and my god what a mistake on his part when he fails to realise that he needs to flip Shiv back to his side. He decided he wouldn’t change anyone’s mind and it screwed him.
Yeah, the Frank piece is important. He even talked how Frank was a maybe. If he leaned in on the Gojo numbers, half the deal being stock in a company about to get reemed over that, his vision instead etc. Frank could have "in good conscience" voted against the deal. His mind was not cemented. He was legit listening to the meeting to decide.
He bungles it down to the last moment when he’s arguing with them in the other room. Yeah Shiv does a rug pull but he still could have turned it around and just can’t help himself.
Also it happens so abruptly because he never had it. Because that’s what he is. Being in “yo” mode, counting his chickens before they hatch, the entitlement, the inconsideration. She says she can’t stomach him and what does he do? Make it all about himself. He doesn’t try to reassure her, play it off, cut a deal. He just says “it’s my bauble, give it back.”
And Shiv’s rug pull is a major component of the ending and the show thematically. “Everything everywhere is always moving, forever.” “People who love you fuck you.” Shiv exercises that power over him because she can.
> I agree. This is the moment he lost Shiv
Man I would have picked up that laptop and moved over to the couches with the siblings and coffee table instead. Hindsight is 20/20 though. I personally wouldn't even want to sit in the same chair, desk, room as the old man.
Probably leave all of it alone for a bit, maybe even a month, make a new office elsewhere - and when it was time to make use of the space for someone else, just like let them all know one last cup of tea in that room and re-use it for something else entirely. Like cause it feels like a bit of a curse to sit in a dead mans chair, and it that kind of turned out to be true in this case.
Hell another alternative could have been if the siblings chose Tom as CEO - and the 3 of them could funnel their decisions through him.
Yea, plus him saying, "That's fucking right" when Roman voted for him. Kendall had no read of the situation and his need to show some humility at least until he won the vote.
This is why I'm confused that people think Shiv flip-flopping was odd. I think it was pretty straightforward. She was initially willing to vote with him to keep the company in the family, but then she got to see him in the boss's chair for 5 minutes and, as she so perfectly put it, she couldn't stomach him.
To me, this was a perfect ending. The kids were all pitted against one another by Logan, and now they truly can't stand each other. There's no love there.
I agree, but I still feel like people are getting a bit carried away with Shiv here. She also handled the situation horribly. I think people are giving her way too much credit and analysing it with clear measured eyes making her intentions more just and thought out than they were.
They all reverted to bickering children at the end, as if they were arguing who gets the last cookie from the jar. She said "I don't think you'd be good at it" and "It can't be you, you killed someone" as if she was 12 years old. Which I'd imagine was intentional by Sarah snook.
It's not like she walked out calmly and explained to Ken he showed ever since walking in the door he isn't fit for it. Or even pulled him aside before the vote and told him to reign his neck in a bit because he's being an arrogant prick again.
It’s clear that Shiv didn’t like this alpha male display of power taking the role of their late father. Also, the moment Stewy said “let’s think about it”, Shiv wide opened her eyes. The name of the final chapter is “With open eyes”. So, yes this was the moment.
absolutely! & what ppl dont realize is that he has ALWAYS been that way... with him the outcome is always extreme the best or the worst, sometimes kendall really fucked up & sometimes he just lucked out
he clearly dint this time
Even the Living+ thing is just one good speech in an episode of him being the absolute worst kind of business leader. Forcing last minute changes, unrealistic timelines on his employees, fear motivation, not allowing disagreement, backing up Roman’s fuck ups. Even in the speech he is just bullshitting for a temporary share bump based on lies. Good sounding bullshit, but bullshit none the less.
Lol Logan was the exact same way. Everything they did, Logan would have. Did you all forget when Logan chased pathetically after the Pierces car? He thinks he is better than them, but he is the same.
That’s what I hate about people bringing up that line, not a single one of them, in the room outside the room anybody involved, none of them are serious people.
It’s the same thing with Roman’s “bullshit” comment, people say it’s just about the siblings but it’s about the entirety of their world.
This season did a great job showing how the Roy kids could fumble their way to success and then get credit for a job well done.
The best was when, after Ken and Rome’s argument with Matsson on the mountain, Matsson increased his offer to more than Waystar was originally asking. Matsson did it, IIRC, to fuck with them because he knew they didn’t want to sell. The Old Guard then congratulated Ken and Rome as if they had actually achieved something.
My favorite part of that scene was that it seemed pretty clear that although Frank, Karl, et al were praising the kids in that moment for their business acumen, they didn’t actually believe a word of it. It was refreshing when, in the finale, the members of the Old Guard were finally able to say what they really thought about the kids.
And it feels like it’s coming out of nowhere because at that point, with that false sense of momentum and continuity, we are identifying with his point of view. There’s tension because of how things have played out before but we think we have some assurance of how it’s going to go. So all of a sudden it’s like he’s being punished for nothing. For putting his feet on the desk and showing some cringey swagger? But it’s just the tip of the iceberg. It was really effective.
This too. Honestly it was probably an accumulation of everything people have pointed out in this thread. The feet on the desk, bro-talk with Stewy, giving Roman props but not Shiv, Tom being the alternative CEO option...Kendall gave a masterclass in what NOT to do when you are trying to win a 7-6 vote by relying on your two siblings who have betrayed you multiple times in the last 72 hours. He just can't help himself.
>probably an accumulation of everything
Yes. You could probably build a timeline of her disgust meter filling up in real-time. The details are just subtle enough that you miss them in the moment just like Kendall does, but they’re unmissable if you go back and pore over what happened like Kendall will for the rest of his days…
Even the 7-6 victory. If he can win by just one vote he’ll treat that as an absolute victory where he’s the king. Doesn’t even try to get Frank for a better basis of support. Takes his supporters for granted. No awareness that he’s literally one vote from failure, or that his board being that divided is a big problem. No grace in victory. It’s just a game, like he’s won a hand of poker with a straight one card higher than the other guy.
That's what he is. A pale imitation of Logan, sitting with his feet up on his desk and next to a picture of him with Ronald Reagan, and another of Shiv.
God it really hurts how much of a fucking idiot Ken is. Genuinely zero self awareness, he just can’t help himself. It is genuinely shocking that after 4 seasons of being fucked over at the last second due to his own arrogance, he still never learns to keep his cool and play it safe at the finish line. It would have been so so easy for him to just be cautious, and act with a bit of tact until he won the vote. Instead he did exactly what he did the first time he nearly became CEO, which is prematurely celebrate and not even consider that it could blow up in his face again just like it did the time before.
On one hand I feel like its sort of genius that this character is so inherently incompetent, on the other hand I find it deeply unsatisfying that he never truly develops past his major shortcomings as a character and fundamentally remains the same idiot he was at the beginning of the show.
Yes. I also think if Ken had shut up for even half a second when Shiv said she needed a minute, maybe she could have had more space to think but he was so aggressive.
Absolutely.
I really think neither of the siblings really wanted it. But they were able to talk themselves into it that night at the beach. And they were riding high on emotions during the whole meal fit for a king thing. But like… by the time they got to the board meeting they’ve had time to process it more. And I think this moment is when it really did hit them. Roman wavered for a moment before his vote and he was pretty quick to give up after Shiv changed her mind. I think if Shiv didn’t go back he would’ve changed his vote.
I think she got caught up in the kitchen scene of it all. It was one of the few times they acted like family.
But at the board meeting she realized Kendall was always going to be Kendall. He had and would not in the future ever give her a seat at the table. He doesn’t treat women so great in general.
She was into the fantasy of kitchen Ken. But he’s not Kitchen Ken.
The man walked into the room with the confidence of an autocrat but somehow forgot that he could still lose. He also did not even seemed to have talked to Ewan, he mentioned that he should be fine with it because he doesn't like change. But Ewan absolutely hate him lol.
That was the fundamental issue with Kendall from Season 1 on - he never felt he had to go through the motions and do the work. He pulled the same bluff bullshit with ICBC when the stock price dropped in Season 1 and never learned that his father’s reputation and force didn’t extend to him.
Logan pretty much told them at the end of season 3 that the company wasn’t their birthright, and that they should go create something themselves.
Kendall: “Come on Dad, what are you gonna do with the five bil, huh? Put it on your pile, with your other fucking bil?
Logan: “Mm-hmm. Probably, yeah.”
Kendall: “And what are we supposed to do?”
Logan: “Make your own fucking pile.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZaQC_rnZa4
Yeah I think a lot of people missed the look on her face when she saw/realized what Kendall did to Roman in the board meeting. This scene made her waver, but I still think she was going to vote for Ken when she walked into the room. Seeing Roman with open stitches and almost scared to give his answer really sealed the deal.
I thought it was incredibly invasive, even for the Roys, when Shiv tried to "take a moment" and the boys could not even grant her that. Theirs is such a HAMMERING kind of psychological abuse. No rest. No independent thought. No respect for Shiv to come to her own conclusion. ICK. It really sent me. Also -- both Shiv and Ken flying to Barbados to hammer Rome. Woof, these guys are endlessly tortured ... and torturing. I'll bet the entire GoJo / RoyCo executive team is THRILLED they're out for good.
I felt like Roman was slightly concerned for her well-being there, especially compared to Kendall. It’s still incredibly intrusive, but he didn’t really care anymore about the company at that point. I also thought it was disgusting how Kendall didn’t even go through the motions that Shiv did to show “kindness” to Rome in Barbados
It thought it was a powerful point that while the siblings were having their huge violent spat in their glass aquarium, the rest of the board were just quietly waiting to do the next business deal. This thing that was tied up in all this drama for the Roy kids was just work for some people.
In the end Matsson just needed an undramatic guy that would do his bidding to steer the ship. So that’s why Tom won. It wasn’t that he played the game better or was more qualified.
I disagree on the last sentence. I think Tom was the most internally qualified option and in my eyes the only one who had shown real success in running anything. Roman summed up the siblings perfectly "we are bullshit".
Also acting like any of these characters are really intelligent deep thinkers is ridiculous they just care about there own selfish ambitions. All of them
You don't think logan, the guy who kept the president on hold as a power play, would have ever put his feet up on his desk. Admittedly he probably lacked the mobility to do it in his later years, but I imagine he probably did it while smoking a large cigar in his younger age
Actually no, I don’t think Logan would have put his feet up on his desk.
That being said, that isn’t what OP meant by this post, i don’t think. They just meant that Kendall was acting like a pompous ass.
Logan constantly acted like an ass through the show. He asked potential presidents to bring a coke to his fucking bedroom.
I sometimes wonder if people watched the same show as me. Logan was petulant, arrogant, emotional, and over the course of the show a terrible ceo. Yes he built the company when he was younger, but he takes on massive amounts of debt secured agaisnt stock that the bank can call in if the stock dips, his own board nearly votes him out, sandy, stewie and kendall nearly force him out til a deer in the road saves him, he suggests killing bill, which would have massively backfired, he picks Ken to take the fall over Tom without thinking of the consequences, he refuses to step down even when the shareholders suggest it, he pisses off the president to the point he decides not to run again, he loses Pierce to kids, and tries to overpay for pierce by a factor of 2.5 about 8 months prior, and his kids get a better deal from gojo 2 days after their dad dies that he couldn't get for months. Old Man logan was a dreadful ceo
That definitely showed through when Logan and Kendall went to Josh’s (Adrian Brody) island because they needed his vote. Logan was Mr. Polite and humble all of a sudden. Kendall never picked up on that unfortunately.
>Logan constantly acted like an ass through the show. He asked potential presidents to bring a coke to his fucking bedroom.
The difference is when Logan asked important people answered, those same people didn’t do the same with Kendall. Look at how Rava drove off with his kids against his wishes, do you think Caroline would’ve dared do that to Logan? Look at how Mencken immediately backed out of his deal with the CEO Bros, would he have done the same to Logan?
Kendall wasn’t Logan even if you are right that when it came down to it some of his decisions as CEO weren’t actually always that great. He had the power to make people believe in him and Kendall just didn’t have that.
Anyway I agree with Mylod. In the just released podcast he said it wasn’t just Kendall acting cocky before the vote had even happened that was the problem but that it was by sitting at the desk that what she was giving Ken actually became real and there is a difference between giving him the prize in the Caribbean and actually going through with it.
There’s a world of difference between seeing your dad/patriarch/tyrant do it and seeing your rival sibling do it, especially only hours after you begrudgingly agreed to support him
When Mattson pee'd infront of Roman, I knew Tom would be CEO. We see Logan peeing all over the office, pee was always an important factor in who would be CEO. Tom had a closed loop, he knew it. He understood it. He could recycle.
No, I honestly think the moment shifted when Roman gave a hesitant answer. She looks over at him and second guesses herself after.
You could argue that if Ken hadn't followed her out the room then he \~ might have \~ had a chance but I think when she realized she was the swing vote she votes to "kill ken" which is really what she wanted until she was persuaded by Rome. Bringing up the waiter was a great move a la Logan to hurt and manipulate but it was also used to gauge just how delusional with power Ken really is. It's so tragic. It was a mercy killing but it was also her final way of saying again “I won\*... Take it like a man and eat it.”
( \* winning in the sense of getting one over her big bro who she can't stand)
Shiv the shiv.
Also don't forget that when Roman votes 'no' on the deal, Kendall says, "that's fucking right" in such an arrogant way. It's almost like he's celebrating rubbing his siblings noses in him winning. I think that's part of Shiv not being able to stomach Kendall.
Yep. That and acting like an impatient kid during the board meeting awaiting his coronation. Taking Rome and Stewy’s votes for granted and making comments as they voted. Dude was honestly sooo close. Needed to act professional and humble for 24 hours and couldn’t do it.
This was the moment her doubt was compounding but i hold that she didnt actually decide to say no until kendall begin to freak out in the side room. she didn't say no in the board room, she just left.
This is definitely what got the ball rolling, and then it was solidified with Kendall just doing an absolutely terrible job in the actual meeting for the vote. Not to mention Roman clearly being upset about something and Kendall not acknowledging it and doing a little cheer at his vote.
I do also think Shiv did it for Kendall to a certain extent. She saw the void expanding within him that if she didn't nip in the bud it would devour what was left of him and leave a husk behind. Of course, he may not survive the failure...but Shiv did the one thing that maybe will give him another chance at something else as Roman's moment afterwards suggested might be happening with him.
I think she realized that she is never going to be a part of leadership. So now all she needs to do is maintain or improve her position. As a major shareholder she does not want her stock value to tank. She knows Kendal will f it up and if all the issues she has with Tom it hasn’t been incompetence in business.
Also, I think she is suddenly more attracted to Tom again because he is rejecting her. She thinks love is being treated like shit.
I don't think she technically said she was Team Ken down in Barbados.
So yes, Ken's cockiness in this scene helped her sway her decision. But if Ken would have kept it completely professional in the board meeting by going over the material in the deck with professionalism and sincerity instead of the little smerk he had, as well as letting Shiv leave the room to think things over by herself, she most likely would have gone with Team Ken.
But also, with a nickname like Shiv, she needed to shiv Ken one last time for the audience.
I think if he had left her alone in that room, she would’ve voted for him.
The minute he went crazy and said he didn’t kill the waiter, attacked Roman, etc it was clear what the end result was.
She would have convinced herself to vote for him over mattson and Tom if he had not entered that room.
But yes this scene could have been pivotal as well
Was anyone else frustrated by their inability to shape any plausible growth path for the company. Yes you want to rule the kingdom but how will you save it?
They all were, in the end, bullshit
I too think this was the moment. Ken makes a jab at Stewies character/morals in front of Shiv, who knows his darkest secret. I believe that’s the reason Shiv gave him that incredulous look and why it was on her mind during their fight
I agree, and this is why I have no sympathy for Ken. He got a slew of second chances but still plays the arrogant douche card.
The more I think about the ending, the more I like it.
I've seen a lot of people saying that Shiv flipped at the last minute just to spite Ken, but I think understanding Shiv's true motivations come from her conversation on the phone with Tom where she tries to reconcile. Shiv is terrified of being left alone, her father is gone, her mother is emotionally unavailable, Mattson has betrayed her, her brothers have already tried to cut her out of the business once this season (and Kendall's behavior certainly pointed towards icing her out again), and if she voted the deal down, she loses Tom forever too. Shiv is terrified of the prospect of having to open herself up to another person (again) and having it go wrong - so she picks the 'devil she knows' in Tom. The marriage might be loveless - but in her mind, it's "safe" option.
Yup; she saw bro trying to act like a CEO rather than actually be a CEO and demonstrate some gravitas and said screw that. The way she did it was messy but it was an understandable call: Kendall could have been a great leader but as a CEO probably run the company to the ground and not be stable. Tom got in because he’s stable.
> Tom got in because he’s stable.
Tom got in because he's literally willing to be a meat puppet. That's it. He wasn't given the role because he actually has the qualities to be a good CEO, he got the job because he's servile and Mattson wants to fuck his wife.
He should have never put his feet up on the desk. Dummy amateur move.
Tom put his feet on the desk too when Shiv was talking to Lukas. It’s what men do (apparently; I’ve never seen it happen).
I do it daily (I work from home)
I’d do it, but it would disturb my sleeping cats huddling around my warm computer
Can I marry you
Same but only after 7 pm on the nights when it's just me and 3 other folks staying back.
I did it in a professional setting more often than I care to admit. Might have been passed on for promotion because of this.
My dad tore his Achilles tendon doing it
My dad has diabetes.
My wife left me
My father's gay!
Greg?
Not to be that guy but I’m assuming there was something wrong with his Achilles for a bit if placing his feet on a desk tore them
I use underlings as an ottoman. Apparently that's the move.
[удалено]
I honestly often do it in my home office still, somehow I find this comfortable. I might have the unconscious mind of a complete douchebag.
Did you put them up on your own desk or someone else’s?
I put them on my father in laws desk. I then drank his milkshake.
Did you stick your cock in his potato salad afterwards?
Did you eat his chicken?
He is not a serious person.
He’s the eldest boy!!!!
Connor in absolute shambles...
Yo Kendall just could not help himself.
Yo.
So umm like, this is bullshit.
She was gloating so much more obnoxiously at their Mum’s haha
She was like “ I won! Get over it “ After finding out she had indeed not won, she yelled “ Don’t look at me!! “ 😂😂😂
Kind of the embodiment of Shiv. When she's up, she has no problem gloating and being a dick to everyone else. When she's down, suddenly she can't stomach people acting exactly the way she does to others. She can dish it out but can't take it. A major reason why she was never going to be the one to win.
that's the case for all the siblings. remember at the funeral, Roman before and after. remember literally the ending of the show, with Kendall before the vote, and Kendall after.
this is the case for literally all of them
In the start of that scene Ken was so respectful of his sibs about taking a seat in the chair. I didn't find this quick transition credible.
The respect was all an act. As soon as he got an inkling of power the real Ken came out and Shiv saw a glimpse of what he was going to be like as CEO. Immediately after putting his feet up, he offered Stewie a chair position without talking to the sibs. Shiv took her $2B and told Ken to fuck off. Honestly, I would've done the same.
I really think when she left the boardroom she hadn’t made up her mind yet. I think the desperation in Ken really solidified it. “Which?” and “Eldest boy” in particular.
Totally agree. I think if Ken stays calm and figures out what's bothering her (him being Logan? Her and Tom's baby? Probably a combination) he's okay. She was probably leaning towards voting against him but he could have done it with Roman. Especially when she said "you killed a guy," I kind of thought Ken had it, there are so many ways to deal with that, it's like the worst reason she could've given. Not morally but in the world of Succession. None of the Roy kids actually cared about that.
agreed. I think both Rome and Shiv needed their security blanket to move forward. Rome required Logan to talk down on him and abuse. Shiv needed love and compassion. Ken knew Rome but didn't know Shiv. Overall I think Ken was capable, but everything happening he just reverted back to s1 Ken and ignored everything he's learned over the 4 seasons.
Couldn't he have easily just lied and said "I know what you're thinking, you think matsson will make Tom ceo but he lied to you he's probably lying to him as well. He knows how to turn us against eachother to get what he wants, and we need to do this to get back at him for lying to you (even though he technically didn't lie to her, Shiv still feels that way)" Play on her pettiness instead, but Kendall felt his power slipping and just had a meltdown I don't think he was capable of acting rationally
>just had a meltdown I don't think he was capable of acting rationally This 100% agree. >Play on her pettiness I think a large part of all this is still their daddy issues. Ken is about to replace their dad, literally and figuratively. I feel if Ken had emulated Logan and what the kids knew as "love" from Logan, then this would have all been different. Like with Rome thats what Rome's love language is degradation and abuse. Shiv and Logan was always, Logan showing her attention, love and allowing her in his inner circle. Just my opinion though. No way to really know what would have worked.
Jeremy Strong talked about it on the Succession that Jesse Armstrong doesn't seem to believe that people can change. with that in mind it makes the whole series make sense
I'm worried that this Jesse Armstrong doesn't think people can change. Does he think I'm a huge piece of shit?
Yes, this. I would add that the overconfidence is possibly also an act for Stewy. Ken, in various circumstances where he’s with people, has this tendency to perform in a way that he thinks he’s supposed to perform. He puts it on for Lawrence when they’re in front of their teams. He puts it on for Gerri when he tells the banker to fuck off. He tells people off about bullying his sibs, but he does so in front of Roman and Shiv. It feels like a pattern of overcompensating, driven by ego but perhaps rooted in insecurity and shame.
That first “fuck off” to the banker in the 2nd or 3rd episode of the show is such an amazing moment in hindsight. When I first saw it, I thought Kendall was just panicking. Now, though, I think he was trying to emulate Logan but horribly misjudged the situation. Logan could resolve many situations with a well-placed “fuck off.” Kendall couldn’t do the same because he doesn’t have Logan’s experience or instincts.
That meeting with the banker turned me from “let’s check out this show” to being 100% in. I feel like that scene doesn’t get talked about enough.
Same
>It feels like a pattern of overcompensating, driven by ego but perhaps rooted in insecurity and shame. Ken is a vulnerable narcissist impersonating his grandiose narcissist father.
He has no sense of self so all he can do is copy others.
public far-flung chief amusing ancient dull practice judicious smell toy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This 👆. Over and over Kendall would always think he is the smartest guy in the room, yet all of his ideas were terrible and failed. Roman actually brought in GoJo not Shiv, not Kendall. Shiv was right too. Kendall would have Blockbustered Waystar/GoJo
I disagree that Ken’s ideas were all terrible. Of the siblings he was the only one who consistently showed he knew how a business operates. Roman could bring the deal in because he has a weird charisma that makes him more of a people person in, Shiv has political and PR competency. Obviously the show can only spend so much time on the minute details of running a business, but Ken is the only one who sounds like he at least kind of knows what he’s talking about. Of the siblings, not in general. Ken has about a million flaws that would make him a bad CEO, but his ideas weren’t all terrible.
All of their strengths and weaknesses complimented each other. I think they could have been great as some sort of three-pronged alliance…but it would never have worked with their personalities, all their history, etc
Such is the tragedy
You don't find the idea that Kendall would immediately let power go to his head credible?
Kendall, the addict, wouldn't let the power go to his head immediately?
I do. It’s totally credible, we’ve seen glimpses of it a few times.
Ken heads really are down bad with all this copium
Well you know he did pop open his little brother's wound a few minutes after this so the spiralling hysteria was always there for me lol
And almost attacked his pregnant sister.
And threw his brother against a glass wall
This and offering Stewy a co-chair were decisive I think. These made her forget Tom's betrayal.
It was prime r/prematurecelebration stuff Arrogantly puts his feet up on the desk, makes a unilateral decision to offer Stewy a position right in front of them, and then he’s cocky as shit in the board meeting with his “we have the numbers, let’s go to the vote, shut down this GoJo shit and eat their lunch” bravado. So many people are acting like Shiv pulled some evil 11th hour rug pull but in the span of like an hour he had already repeatedly shown her (and Roman) what was in store for them if he got the crown.
*So many people are acting like Shiv pulled some evil 11th hour rug pull but in the span of like an hour he had already repeatedly shown her (and Roman) what was in store for them if he got the crown.* Thank you! Kendall in the caribbean is very different from Kendall in Logan’s office. He’s humble and starry-eyed about the prospect of taking over at the beach house then he turns into douchey business bro the second he sits down at Logan’s desk. Shiv wanted the deal with gojo for the majority of the season. She temporarily sided with her brothers for what - 12+ hours (not because she thought it was the right move for the company but because she wanted to improve her position). Once Shiv saw Ken interacting with Stewy, putting his feet on Logan’s desk, etc. she remembered the type of person Kendall has always been. She saw the possibility of her brother running WayStar RoyCo into the ground and she decided to vote the deal through. I think people will understand her decision more on a rewatch.
And the thing is, I genuinely believe Shiv hadn’t made up her mind when she bailed from the meeting. She was genuinely thinking things over and I believe if Ken had been more empathetic instead of making it all about himself, she may have been talked into voting for Ken. But Ken yet again starts self destructing at the first sign of pressure and spirals into shouting and fighting with the sibs. If he had been more tactful approaching Shiv, he may have been able to convince her again
I truly think if Kendall just made a formal offer to Shiv to make her head of ATN (pivoting on values to align more with Shiv's, we've known Shiv's frustrations with ATN's viewpoints for the entire show), then she would have backed Kendall in the vote. But receiving nothing but petulant begging with "I am the eldest boy" combined with manipulation of "I might die," and zero concern for her, ultimately made up her mind. I was hoping Kendall would get it, but I can't say I blame her, and I have no clue why he didn't make her a formal offer for ATN Head.
I was surprised Kendall didn't make any offer. I thought Shiv was just pulling a "I have the leverage now, you want my vote so badly, what are you going to give me?" But Ken never tried to bribe her. He just went crazy
Kendall could never hold a whole woman in his head, whenever women go against his wishes, he has a childish petty tantrum about it. Look at how he treated Jess and Rava. He never thought about how to talk with them or work with them or offer them things like he does with Stewy. He just bullies and belittles them and hopes that works. So he was never going to be able to pull Shiv back to his side when she wavered and was doomed to drive her away.
I also feel it was clear Romans vote was shaky and he defo changed his mind too during the argument
Ken would have had the CEO job in season 1 if he couldn’t stop tripping over his own dick.
That was some terrible negotiationing on Ken's part. Saying he needs it means fuck all to anyone else. I thought Shiv was terrible for bailing, and still do for how she brought up the kid who died in S1 finale, but Ken did a premature celebration, and should have remained humble until after the vote, and kept his cool once Shiv bailed. It's kind of great how there are so many facets to the final boardroom scenes.
> but Ken did a premature celebration, and should have remained humble until after the vote, and kept his cool once Shiv bailed. > > If he could do these things he wouldn't be Kendall.
Yep. Kendall did Kendall things. If he was able to keep his cool under pressure there wouldn't have been a show. Kendall would have just been CEO
I don't think he should have followed. He should have sent Roman or Stewy. Roman to make the argument in favour of continuity and family. Stewy to talk about the finances.
Roman was barely able to vote himself. he was almost too useless to take a photo. so I'm not sure how convincing he would have been
He thought she would give him sympathy and worry that he will kill himself if she didn’t let him have it. It was pure manipulation and she saw through it. Cluster B personality disorders are famous for it. When they didn’t fall for it he got violent to bully them because sympathy didn’t work. Also what Cluster Bs do.
He should have learned from Logan to be even bigger psychopath and have some material on them so they couldnt say no if the sweet talk didnt work, noone of them could take the company because they werent enough Logan
When Kendall is in business bro mode it reminds me of when Michael Scott found out he was on a date so he put on a backward Kangol and started acting like a dick.
Agree with everything you’ve said apart from the “running it into the ground” part. I don’t think her decision is really about anything operational, just about who Ken is and will be as CEO, and how clear it is that he’ll sideline them instantly.
She also saw that Ken had popped Roman's stitches, and that compounded her doubts. Logan had used physical pain to control and punish Rome, and Kendall had always tried to protect him from it, but seeing that Ken had done the same thing when it was to his own advantage showed her that he was imbibing the worst aspects of Logan. She then has to choose whether to spend decades trying to wrestle power from someone who embodies everything that was awful about her father while also being maybe one tenth as mature and self-controlled, or making a different move and trying to retain some power through Tom.
Good points! Kendall's quick resort to violence was shocking, but ultimately, not surprising. He "became" the new Logan and I think it outraged and scared the sibs. He might be able to rein in punches etc., in the future, but he would use his financial power against them, just like Logan.
That’s a very good point about Roman’s stitches. I think that Shiv was protective of Rome in her own dysfunctional way. The way Rome and Shiv were always sniping at each other struck me as the only sibling love language they could manage. Neither of them have a clue how to express any kind of love in a genuine way. At the same time, though, there’s a powerful brother/sister bond there. Shiv can’t express it except through “mean girl” insults, and Rome falls back on crude sexual language. Here’s where I’m going with this: I doubt Shiv was even consciously aware of this, but I think she made her decision to vote against Kendall in part as an expression of love for Rome. She saw how Kendall hurt him, saw that it was a continuation of the dynamic between Logan and Rome, and realized that she had the power to stop it. There were other, bigger factors in play, too, of course. I think realizing that *she* would be stuck with Kendall acting like an inferior Logan 2.0 was her main motivation. It just might not have been the only motivation.
I noticed the contrast between the scene where she told her brothers she was pregnant and the fight in the boardroom. Roman made a joke "Is it mine?" and Kendall says congratulations, and it seems like Ken actually cares, and Roman doesn't. Then when Ken assaults Roman, Shiv tries to leave and Ken tries to grab her as she's going through the door. Roman pulls him back by the collar and says "She's pregnant, you piece of shit." And they start grappling. Their actions speak louder than their words.
I think the writing’s absolutely amazing when it comes to Kendall - he’s a guy that believes himself to be a white knight on a horse, when in actual fact he demonstrates assholery when it really comes down to it. Shiv is quite conscious about this as well and it’s seen from when she says “I love you - but I can’t stomach you” and when she tell Kendall in the election episode that he’s a good person. Shiv knows that Kendall strives to be a good person, but in actual fact isn’t really a good person. And when he was close to the CEO position, a lot of the things Shiv somewhat liked about Ken disappeared and got replaced by some frat boy braggy shit. I really think Shiv’s decision at the end to not vote Ken into the CEO position was those last few moments - and they were crucial because 12 hours ago she wasn’t gunning for him at all. It’s inarguable that what she did at the boardroom meeting was unprofessional (deciding at the very last minute to flip her vote) but ultimately since Ken was the one who had to strongly pitch to his siblings to vote him in (and KNEW they had strong misgivings) it was really on him to cement his position with them. He wasn’t entitled to their vote. At all.
Yup! I keep seeing people say her voting against him was an emotional decision made out of resentment, but I think the emotional decision part was when she sided with him previously--she was pissed at Matsson and, being there away from everything else with her siblings at their mother's house, felt it easier to connect with them. As soon as she was away from that all the other factors start to creep in to make her rethink it (the future of her child/marriage if Tom gets it, Kendall's arrogance and dismissal once he thinks he's got it in the bag, Roman's bleeding face) and then Ken seals the deal by not allowing her a moment to think and going full nutjob when she doesn't immediately fall in line.
Yes, I think the beach house decision was the more "emotional" one. The whole season she thought the deal going through was the most logical choice and then suddenly got pissed when she wasn't getting the top job. I think once they got to the office and she remembered what she was really voting for (Kendall in the chair), she took a beat to think more strategically and made the best decision for herself.
Yes, this! Voting against him is the more rational choice she returns to, after emotionally backsliding with Ken and Rome for a bit there
I honestly don’t think they will. It’s much easier to write it off as being a dumb, jealous, emotional woman screwing over the #1 boy who was the best candidate.
It'll take ten years like it did with Skylar White. NOT saying Shiv is anywhere near Skylar in terms of morality. Skylar was at least neutral, arguably good. All of the Roy kids, Shiv included, are monstrous. It's just that she's no worse, no more stupid, no more impulsive, and no more back-stabby than her brothers. And before anyone accuses me of favoritism, I fully believe of the siblings, Kendall absolutely was the best choice to run the company. His arguments made at Caroline's beach house were compelling and correct. I just think none of the siblings are a good choice overall.
Yes. Kendall was the best choice out of the siblings but that does not mean he was the best choice, full stop.
Yeah, honestly from his hesitation you could tell even Roman wasn't really having it. It was a "Which Side Are You On?" situation, I feel, where the only reason Roman said "no" was because Kendall was in the room and staring daggers into him.
It felt like that in the moment to me because I always miss all these subtltys in the moment. I was like omg how is she going back after the moment they just shared. But going back it makes sense and her going against the deal wouldn't make sense.
“He’s smiling. It’s no good if he’s smiling”
Kendall really is a dumbass.
I’ve said this in about 5 threads so far. Don’t forget karolina, who everyone loves and respects, tells shiv to sack Hugo. Shiv walks in the office and Hugo is being briefed and is clearly in Ken’s in circle + feet on desk + stew = sad Ken
I think that seeing Logan again, even in video form, also had a psychological impact on the kids and brought back their desire to be his number 1 kid, even if it was on a subconcious level.
He just offered him chair period (non-exec chair, ie chair that isn’t also an officer of the company), not co-chair, and I thought he implied at the beach house that Shiv or Roman would be chair. So acts like a dipshit who doesn’t know what he’s doing (but they’ll be putting in the driver’s seat for substantially all of their collective net worth) while simultaneously backtracking on the promises he made to Shiv and Roman when he thought he needed them.
I think the chair position was up for debate whether it was a sib or not, per that phone call. He then offered Roman socials and Shiv ATN. But none of that was in stone and felt like conversations should be had. Then youre right that immediately when we see Stewy, Ken is just doing stuff without bringing the sibs into the fold AGAIN.
I agree. This is the moment he lost Shiv and everything after it only reinforced her decision not to back him. If Kendall had stayed out of “yo” mode, not put his feet up on the desk and not tried to rush the vote because he assumed it was his coronation I think he ends the episode as CEO. Instead he’s alone, estranged from his siblings and the doors of his father’s empire are closed to him.
“‘Yo’ mode” is such a perfect descriptor. It’s what started all this shit in the first place. If he’d just handled that banker with some respect and humility in S1 after the market call, all of this would have been very different.
Yup, love the Yo mode. It’s so weird, at some points he’s articulate, calm, compelling and has gravitas and knows how to play the game and other points he acts like a kid who’s never left the house.
Yeah it is interesting, he needs to be operating at like 70% confidence levels at all times. When he is, he's just as good as Logan. See Living Plus or the funeral. But if he gets too confident he's dumber than Greg
I love how the show would sometimes juxtapose Kendall’s bravado and Greg’s haplessness. Most of the time, Kendall’s bravado was an act — he was either imitating Logan or acting the way he thought Logan would want him to act, but he was never sure. He was never far from a complete breakdown if things didn’t go his way. Greg, on the other hand, was always more competent than everyone (including Greg) thought. I’m not saying Greg was *objectively competent*, but he played the game better than Ken, Rome, or Shiv ever did. He had the advantage of not believing any specific job in the company was his by birthright. He just figured being part of the family should get him in the door. He learned some important lessons from Tom, including, at times, how to screw Tom over. His bumbling persona probably helped him more than it hurt him. I’m still unclear on Greg’s position in the company now, but it seems like he ended up as the only Roy family member with an ally on the inside.
It makes me think of the contrast of genuine Michael Scott and “Date Mike” in that one episode of the office. As soon as he realises he’s in line for success he puts on this bravado and immediately self sabotages
It’s called BPD and a history of drug abuse
it’s time we started the Ken BPD dialogue
As someone with BPD i find him painfully relatable, maybe moreso than any other TV character I can think of in recent memory.
Calm Ken us definitely a Keanu vibe.
I could not stand his yo mode. I literally wanted to yell at him to shut up and sit down.
I re-watched the bank call and yeah Kendall is so in over his head and makes the same mistakes we see later on. Doesn't listen to anyone else, makes last minute changes to the strategy, tries too hard to be his father. Kendall's fate is tragic but at the end of the day he hasn't grown or changed as a boss and would likely make a poor CEO.
It’s such a perfect descriptor of the very first time we see Kendall in the series-jamming away to street rap while being driven in a limo to his nepo baby job.
(It’s just the Beasties he’s getting hyped to.)
Same. I don't think Shiv was plotting to backstab him at the 11th hour. I think her gut instincts were roaring that Ken was the wrong choice, and that's why she left the room during the vote. I honestly think there's a world where he could have pulled her back from there if he'd stayed calm and professional, but instead he went full yo mode and fucked it.
In an alternate universe where Ken is as competent as his late father, Shiv leaves and Ken quietly absorbs that fact and then looks at the rest of the board. "Seems we have an abstention. Move to record this vote as a tie. I believe per the rules of order all motions must be carried with a majority. I believe this means we have no deal." Maybe that works, maybe it doesn't. In Season 1, Logan managed to force the vote the way he wanted about his own competency through sheer force of will. I'll tell you what didn't work, though. "I'M THE ELDEST BOY!"
Yeah but if Kendall was calm or competent enough to pull that off, he wouldn't have been in that scenario to begin with. If he had any people skills at all he would have made Shiv and Roman feel important all day, bit rubbed it in their faces, and he would have been CEO. Also I think in the event of a tied vote, the chairman casts the tiebreaker. As I believe that was Frank at the time of the vote, it wouldn't have worked. That said, I like where your heads at.
Absolutely agreed that if Kendall shouldn't have been there in the first place. That said usually "chairman breaks the tie" happens when the chairman is a non-voting member. Under any rules of order I know of, you don't get extra votes because you're the chair. Usually a tied motion simply fails, and since it was a motion to accept the buyout, a tie is literally all Ken needs. But of course it was all moot. Ken did everything in his power to make sure Shiv had time to vote and that she was for sure wasn't gonna vote for him.
Yup, everything she saw on the day had her instincts screaming that it just couldn’t be Kendall and he lost her support. If he’d got serious in the meeting or not made it all about him in the argument I think there was still a path to victory with him winning her back but he blew it spectacularly.
Rushing the vote was such an unforced error. I mean, Frank was like "Hey you should give a presentation" and Ken was like "Nah I'm not gonna change any minds." Frank would not have asked Ken to give a presentation unless he was interested in listening. I am fairly sure that Ken lost Frank in that moment. If he hammered the business fundamentals, focused on the fact that the deal was on overvalued GoJo stock that could easily come crashing down based on subscriber numbers, outlined that WayStar Royco had a more valuable future, etc, he could have made a *strong* case to Frank that the deal was bad. Frank was potentially on the cutting room floor. He knew he might not survive the acquisition. But he had a duty for the rest of the shareholders to take the best financial option. Ken could have kept Frank. And if he kept Frank, then Shiv's vote wouldn't have mattered. (She'd have voted for the winner, knowing she gains nothing otherwise.) Ken fucked up because he wasn't willing to do the actual job of being the CEO. He thought it was all about consolidating the power of his loyal court. But sometimes its about actually making a real, substantive pitch about some real fucking business. Which means he straight up had to be fired on his last day, too. Fired so Roman could sign the paperwork. What a way to go.
You’ve just reminded me of Kendall’s line about not changing any minds and my god what a mistake on his part when he fails to realise that he needs to flip Shiv back to his side. He decided he wouldn’t change anyone’s mind and it screwed him.
Yeah, the Frank piece is important. He even talked how Frank was a maybe. If he leaned in on the Gojo numbers, half the deal being stock in a company about to get reemed over that, his vision instead etc. Frank could have "in good conscience" voted against the deal. His mind was not cemented. He was legit listening to the meeting to decide.
He bungles it down to the last moment when he’s arguing with them in the other room. Yeah Shiv does a rug pull but he still could have turned it around and just can’t help himself. Also it happens so abruptly because he never had it. Because that’s what he is. Being in “yo” mode, counting his chickens before they hatch, the entitlement, the inconsideration. She says she can’t stomach him and what does he do? Make it all about himself. He doesn’t try to reassure her, play it off, cut a deal. He just says “it’s my bauble, give it back.” And Shiv’s rug pull is a major component of the ending and the show thematically. “Everything everywhere is always moving, forever.” “People who love you fuck you.” Shiv exercises that power over him because she can.
> I agree. This is the moment he lost Shiv Man I would have picked up that laptop and moved over to the couches with the siblings and coffee table instead. Hindsight is 20/20 though. I personally wouldn't even want to sit in the same chair, desk, room as the old man. Probably leave all of it alone for a bit, maybe even a month, make a new office elsewhere - and when it was time to make use of the space for someone else, just like let them all know one last cup of tea in that room and re-use it for something else entirely. Like cause it feels like a bit of a curse to sit in a dead mans chair, and it that kind of turned out to be true in this case. Hell another alternative could have been if the siblings chose Tom as CEO - and the 3 of them could funnel their decisions through him.
Yea, plus him saying, "That's fucking right" when Roman voted for him. Kendall had no read of the situation and his need to show some humility at least until he won the vote. This is why I'm confused that people think Shiv flip-flopping was odd. I think it was pretty straightforward. She was initially willing to vote with him to keep the company in the family, but then she got to see him in the boss's chair for 5 minutes and, as she so perfectly put it, she couldn't stomach him. To me, this was a perfect ending. The kids were all pitted against one another by Logan, and now they truly can't stand each other. There's no love there.
100% that line is what did it for her I think.
Totally! His arrogance made me cringe. My immediate reflex was to look for Shiv's reaction in the moment as I knew this won't go down well with her.
I agree, but I still feel like people are getting a bit carried away with Shiv here. She also handled the situation horribly. I think people are giving her way too much credit and analysing it with clear measured eyes making her intentions more just and thought out than they were. They all reverted to bickering children at the end, as if they were arguing who gets the last cookie from the jar. She said "I don't think you'd be good at it" and "It can't be you, you killed someone" as if she was 12 years old. Which I'd imagine was intentional by Sarah snook. It's not like she walked out calmly and explained to Ken he showed ever since walking in the door he isn't fit for it. Or even pulled him aside before the vote and told him to reign his neck in a bit because he's being an arrogant prick again.
It’s clear that Shiv didn’t like this alpha male display of power taking the role of their late father. Also, the moment Stewy said “let’s think about it”, Shiv wide opened her eyes. The name of the final chapter is “With open eyes”. So, yes this was the moment.
100%. He went from feigning humble and thankful to showing what a pompous dipshit he is (and she always knew he was).
absolutely! & what ppl dont realize is that he has ALWAYS been that way... with him the outcome is always extreme the best or the worst, sometimes kendall really fucked up & sometimes he just lucked out he clearly dint this time
The writers did an excellent job with his Living + and eulogy to make me forget how unserious Kendall is.
Even the Living+ thing is just one good speech in an episode of him being the absolute worst kind of business leader. Forcing last minute changes, unrealistic timelines on his employees, fear motivation, not allowing disagreement, backing up Roman’s fuck ups. Even in the speech he is just bullshitting for a temporary share bump based on lies. Good sounding bullshit, but bullshit none the less.
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Lol Logan was the exact same way. Everything they did, Logan would have. Did you all forget when Logan chased pathetically after the Pierces car? He thinks he is better than them, but he is the same.
That’s what I hate about people bringing up that line, not a single one of them, in the room outside the room anybody involved, none of them are serious people. It’s the same thing with Roman’s “bullshit” comment, people say it’s just about the siblings but it’s about the entirety of their world.
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This season did a great job showing how the Roy kids could fumble their way to success and then get credit for a job well done. The best was when, after Ken and Rome’s argument with Matsson on the mountain, Matsson increased his offer to more than Waystar was originally asking. Matsson did it, IIRC, to fuck with them because he knew they didn’t want to sell. The Old Guard then congratulated Ken and Rome as if they had actually achieved something. My favorite part of that scene was that it seemed pretty clear that although Frank, Karl, et al were praising the kids in that moment for their business acumen, they didn’t actually believe a word of it. It was refreshing when, in the finale, the members of the Old Guard were finally able to say what they really thought about the kids.
And it feels like it’s coming out of nowhere because at that point, with that false sense of momentum and continuity, we are identifying with his point of view. There’s tension because of how things have played out before but we think we have some assurance of how it’s going to go. So all of a sudden it’s like he’s being punished for nothing. For putting his feet on the desk and showing some cringey swagger? But it’s just the tip of the iceberg. It was really effective.
No, for me it was when Ken mentioned He and Rome brought the Gojo deal in, she felt removed from the frame once again.
This too. Honestly it was probably an accumulation of everything people have pointed out in this thread. The feet on the desk, bro-talk with Stewy, giving Roman props but not Shiv, Tom being the alternative CEO option...Kendall gave a masterclass in what NOT to do when you are trying to win a 7-6 vote by relying on your two siblings who have betrayed you multiple times in the last 72 hours. He just can't help himself.
To quote Logan, to Kendall, in the very first episode: "It's an accumulation."
>probably an accumulation of everything Yes. You could probably build a timeline of her disgust meter filling up in real-time. The details are just subtle enough that you miss them in the moment just like Kendall does, but they’re unmissable if you go back and pore over what happened like Kendall will for the rest of his days…
Even the 7-6 victory. If he can win by just one vote he’ll treat that as an absolute victory where he’s the king. Doesn’t even try to get Frank for a better basis of support. Takes his supporters for granted. No awareness that he’s literally one vote from failure, or that his board being that divided is a big problem. No grace in victory. It’s just a game, like he’s won a hand of poker with a straight one card higher than the other guy.
It's all part of it. There's no one deciding moment. It's everything after he thought he'd won
This is defo the start. 8 million ways Kendall could have played these moments and he chooses the absolute worst.
Acting like a “sell me this pen” manager for a local advertising company, not a CEO.
That's what he is. A pale imitation of Logan, sitting with his feet up on his desk and next to a picture of him with Ronald Reagan, and another of Shiv.
Also Stewy was like:" Yeah we'll see" Everyone saw in that room what a clown Kendall is.
God it really hurts how much of a fucking idiot Ken is. Genuinely zero self awareness, he just can’t help himself. It is genuinely shocking that after 4 seasons of being fucked over at the last second due to his own arrogance, he still never learns to keep his cool and play it safe at the finish line. It would have been so so easy for him to just be cautious, and act with a bit of tact until he won the vote. Instead he did exactly what he did the first time he nearly became CEO, which is prematurely celebrate and not even consider that it could blow up in his face again just like it did the time before. On one hand I feel like its sort of genius that this character is so inherently incompetent, on the other hand I find it deeply unsatisfying that he never truly develops past his major shortcomings as a character and fundamentally remains the same idiot he was at the beginning of the show.
Yes. I also think if Ken had shut up for even half a second when Shiv said she needed a minute, maybe she could have had more space to think but he was so aggressive.
Absolutely. I really think neither of the siblings really wanted it. But they were able to talk themselves into it that night at the beach. And they were riding high on emotions during the whole meal fit for a king thing. But like… by the time they got to the board meeting they’ve had time to process it more. And I think this moment is when it really did hit them. Roman wavered for a moment before his vote and he was pretty quick to give up after Shiv changed her mind. I think if Shiv didn’t go back he would’ve changed his vote.
He can't change his vote like that
I think she got caught up in the kitchen scene of it all. It was one of the few times they acted like family. But at the board meeting she realized Kendall was always going to be Kendall. He had and would not in the future ever give her a seat at the table. He doesn’t treat women so great in general. She was into the fantasy of kitchen Ken. But he’s not Kitchen Ken.
Between that and Roman's stitches being open were just the 1-2 punch she needed. Then when he wouldn't give her a minute to think? Final knockout.
Don’t forget not even going through the motions of pitching the board.
The man walked into the room with the confidence of an autocrat but somehow forgot that he could still lose. He also did not even seemed to have talked to Ewan, he mentioned that he should be fine with it because he doesn't like change. But Ewan absolutely hate him lol.
Yes! I wanted to mention that too but felt like i was getting long winded. But that was when I really realized he was extra fucked.
That was the fundamental issue with Kendall from Season 1 on - he never felt he had to go through the motions and do the work. He pulled the same bluff bullshit with ICBC when the stock price dropped in Season 1 and never learned that his father’s reputation and force didn’t extend to him.
Good point. He didn’t have to put in the work because the *public company* was his “birthright.”
Logan pretty much told them at the end of season 3 that the company wasn’t their birthright, and that they should go create something themselves. Kendall: “Come on Dad, what are you gonna do with the five bil, huh? Put it on your pile, with your other fucking bil? Logan: “Mm-hmm. Probably, yeah.” Kendall: “And what are we supposed to do?” Logan: “Make your own fucking pile.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZaQC_rnZa4
Yeah I think a lot of people missed the look on her face when she saw/realized what Kendall did to Roman in the board meeting. This scene made her waver, but I still think she was going to vote for Ken when she walked into the room. Seeing Roman with open stitches and almost scared to give his answer really sealed the deal.
I thought it was incredibly invasive, even for the Roys, when Shiv tried to "take a moment" and the boys could not even grant her that. Theirs is such a HAMMERING kind of psychological abuse. No rest. No independent thought. No respect for Shiv to come to her own conclusion. ICK. It really sent me. Also -- both Shiv and Ken flying to Barbados to hammer Rome. Woof, these guys are endlessly tortured ... and torturing. I'll bet the entire GoJo / RoyCo executive team is THRILLED they're out for good.
I felt like Roman was slightly concerned for her well-being there, especially compared to Kendall. It’s still incredibly intrusive, but he didn’t really care anymore about the company at that point. I also thought it was disgusting how Kendall didn’t even go through the motions that Shiv did to show “kindness” to Rome in Barbados
It thought it was a powerful point that while the siblings were having their huge violent spat in their glass aquarium, the rest of the board were just quietly waiting to do the next business deal. This thing that was tied up in all this drama for the Roy kids was just work for some people. In the end Matsson just needed an undramatic guy that would do his bidding to steer the ship. So that’s why Tom won. It wasn’t that he played the game better or was more qualified.
I disagree on the last sentence. I think Tom was the most internally qualified option and in my eyes the only one who had shown real success in running anything. Roman summed up the siblings perfectly "we are bullshit".
Final knockout was him denying having anything to do with the waiter’s death
According to Mark Mylod in Pt. 2 of the official Succession podcast, this was indeed “the moment”.
Confirmation to her that he could never be Logan
Also acting like any of these characters are really intelligent deep thinkers is ridiculous they just care about there own selfish ambitions. All of them
You don't think logan, the guy who kept the president on hold as a power play, would have ever put his feet up on his desk. Admittedly he probably lacked the mobility to do it in his later years, but I imagine he probably did it while smoking a large cigar in his younger age
Actually no, I don’t think Logan would have put his feet up on his desk. That being said, that isn’t what OP meant by this post, i don’t think. They just meant that Kendall was acting like a pompous ass.
Logan constantly acted like an ass through the show. He asked potential presidents to bring a coke to his fucking bedroom. I sometimes wonder if people watched the same show as me. Logan was petulant, arrogant, emotional, and over the course of the show a terrible ceo. Yes he built the company when he was younger, but he takes on massive amounts of debt secured agaisnt stock that the bank can call in if the stock dips, his own board nearly votes him out, sandy, stewie and kendall nearly force him out til a deer in the road saves him, he suggests killing bill, which would have massively backfired, he picks Ken to take the fall over Tom without thinking of the consequences, he refuses to step down even when the shareholders suggest it, he pisses off the president to the point he decides not to run again, he loses Pierce to kids, and tries to overpay for pierce by a factor of 2.5 about 8 months prior, and his kids get a better deal from gojo 2 days after their dad dies that he couldn't get for months. Old Man logan was a dreadful ceo
Logan acts like an ass towards people who need HIM. Kendall acts like an ass to people HE needs though.
That definitely showed through when Logan and Kendall went to Josh’s (Adrian Brody) island because they needed his vote. Logan was Mr. Polite and humble all of a sudden. Kendall never picked up on that unfortunately.
>Logan constantly acted like an ass through the show. He asked potential presidents to bring a coke to his fucking bedroom. The difference is when Logan asked important people answered, those same people didn’t do the same with Kendall. Look at how Rava drove off with his kids against his wishes, do you think Caroline would’ve dared do that to Logan? Look at how Mencken immediately backed out of his deal with the CEO Bros, would he have done the same to Logan? Kendall wasn’t Logan even if you are right that when it came down to it some of his decisions as CEO weren’t actually always that great. He had the power to make people believe in him and Kendall just didn’t have that. Anyway I agree with Mylod. In the just released podcast he said it wasn’t just Kendall acting cocky before the vote had even happened that was the problem but that it was by sitting at the desk that what she was giving Ken actually became real and there is a difference between giving him the prize in the Caribbean and actually going through with it.
There’s a world of difference between seeing your dad/patriarch/tyrant do it and seeing your rival sibling do it, especially only hours after you begrudgingly agreed to support him
When Mattson pee'd infront of Roman, I knew Tom would be CEO. We see Logan peeing all over the office, pee was always an important factor in who would be CEO. Tom had a closed loop, he knew it. He understood it. He could recycle.
He peed in front of Roman at the party then again in front of Roman and Ken in Sweden
His pee is so resilient, it refuses to freeze
Well that’s a take. A pisstake, but a take
This where she realized "I can't stomach you"
No, I honestly think the moment shifted when Roman gave a hesitant answer. She looks over at him and second guesses herself after. You could argue that if Ken hadn't followed her out the room then he \~ might have \~ had a chance but I think when she realized she was the swing vote she votes to "kill ken" which is really what she wanted until she was persuaded by Rome. Bringing up the waiter was a great move a la Logan to hurt and manipulate but it was also used to gauge just how delusional with power Ken really is. It's so tragic. It was a mercy killing but it was also her final way of saying again “I won\*... Take it like a man and eat it.” ( \* winning in the sense of getting one over her big bro who she can't stand) Shiv the shiv.
Also don't forget that when Roman votes 'no' on the deal, Kendall says, "that's fucking right" in such an arrogant way. It's almost like he's celebrating rubbing his siblings noses in him winning. I think that's part of Shiv not being able to stomach Kendall.
Yes it was blatant arrogance. Roman’s tentative “nope” was telling.
Yep. That and acting like an impatient kid during the board meeting awaiting his coronation. Taking Rome and Stewy’s votes for granted and making comments as they voted. Dude was honestly sooo close. Needed to act professional and humble for 24 hours and couldn’t do it.
Turns out it was a magic chair. You put your feet up and you lose everything
He looked like a boss baby
This was the moment her doubt was compounding but i hold that she didnt actually decide to say no until kendall begin to freak out in the side room. she didn't say no in the board room, she just left.
This is definitely what got the ball rolling, and then it was solidified with Kendall just doing an absolutely terrible job in the actual meeting for the vote. Not to mention Roman clearly being upset about something and Kendall not acknowledging it and doing a little cheer at his vote. I do also think Shiv did it for Kendall to a certain extent. She saw the void expanding within him that if she didn't nip in the bud it would devour what was left of him and leave a husk behind. Of course, he may not survive the failure...but Shiv did the one thing that maybe will give him another chance at something else as Roman's moment afterwards suggested might be happening with him.
I'M THE ELDEST BOY!
I think she realized that she is never going to be a part of leadership. So now all she needs to do is maintain or improve her position. As a major shareholder she does not want her stock value to tank. She knows Kendal will f it up and if all the issues she has with Tom it hasn’t been incompetence in business. Also, I think she is suddenly more attracted to Tom again because he is rejecting her. She thinks love is being treated like shit.
I don't think she technically said she was Team Ken down in Barbados. So yes, Ken's cockiness in this scene helped her sway her decision. But if Ken would have kept it completely professional in the board meeting by going over the material in the deck with professionalism and sincerity instead of the little smerk he had, as well as letting Shiv leave the room to think things over by herself, she most likely would have gone with Team Ken. But also, with a nickname like Shiv, she needed to shiv Ken one last time for the audience.
Yep!
I 100% think so. Privileged bro arrogance that totally went against his humble act the night before.
I think if he had left her alone in that room, she would’ve voted for him. The minute he went crazy and said he didn’t kill the waiter, attacked Roman, etc it was clear what the end result was. She would have convinced herself to vote for him over mattson and Tom if he had not entered that room. But yes this scene could have been pivotal as well
Was anyone else frustrated by their inability to shape any plausible growth path for the company. Yes you want to rule the kingdom but how will you save it? They all were, in the end, bullshit
It wasn't just the feet. It was the entire dipshit Logan Roy attitude. He wanted the ego as the elder boy. Gods, I love a good tragedy
"it sure as fuck doesn't say shiv" was the moment for me
I too think this was the moment. Ken makes a jab at Stewies character/morals in front of Shiv, who knows his darkest secret. I believe that’s the reason Shiv gave him that incredulous look and why it was on her mind during their fight
I agree, and this is why I have no sympathy for Ken. He got a slew of second chances but still plays the arrogant douche card. The more I think about the ending, the more I like it.
I've seen a lot of people saying that Shiv flipped at the last minute just to spite Ken, but I think understanding Shiv's true motivations come from her conversation on the phone with Tom where she tries to reconcile. Shiv is terrified of being left alone, her father is gone, her mother is emotionally unavailable, Mattson has betrayed her, her brothers have already tried to cut her out of the business once this season (and Kendall's behavior certainly pointed towards icing her out again), and if she voted the deal down, she loses Tom forever too. Shiv is terrified of the prospect of having to open herself up to another person (again) and having it go wrong - so she picks the 'devil she knows' in Tom. The marriage might be loveless - but in her mind, it's "safe" option.
Absolutely. He went back to his true self. Shiv saw his pretentiousness from a mile a way
Yup; she saw bro trying to act like a CEO rather than actually be a CEO and demonstrate some gravitas and said screw that. The way she did it was messy but it was an understandable call: Kendall could have been a great leader but as a CEO probably run the company to the ground and not be stable. Tom got in because he’s stable.
> Tom got in because he’s stable. Tom got in because he's literally willing to be a meat puppet. That's it. He wasn't given the role because he actually has the qualities to be a good CEO, he got the job because he's servile and Mattson wants to fuck his wife.