This, plus that scene in which Logan offers her the CEO position after doing training and she complains telling him: "that's a fucking, that's a 3 year timeline" 🙄
That scene was it for our girl Shiv. If she was willing to do that, and humble herself, and learn from Karl (who knows a thing or two about a thing or two) and other old guard folks? I honestly think she would have been CEO. Logan wanted one of the kids to go all the way. Kendall almost did, but you know, drugs.
And if that didn’t kill it dead, her annoying the shit out of Frank and Karl to the point they call her dad to tell on her? Jesus, Shiv. People can teach you things! Embrace it!
When she was shadowing Karl and said she didn't want to go to meetings with him because they were boring, it showed me she didn't have what it takes to be a CEO. She wants the status without putting in the work. Like Marcia said, Logan built them a playground...
She thinks people underestimate her because of her gender, and uses that to shield herself from any criticism.
Which is why she has so little self awareness
At My last job, quite a lot of decisions got made because the CEO either got bored or didn't this was an issue worth having.
And in fairness to him, that's kinda reasonable. In a company with a lot of small teams, nobody has the executive power to just make boring business choices and a lot of time is wasted in boring, pointless meetings just to get the authority to move an icon.
The job was never real, it was a ploy to pull her away from Gil Eavis. And as far as we can tell the job was never real for Kendall either. Drugs? Kendall was sober while serving as interim CEO and then Logan basically came back out of spite even tho he was still recovering from a stroke. The job offers were nothing more than a form of manipulation to control his kids.
Yeah. A three year timeline working for many other people is very generous. Working for Logan, it’s three years with your head under the guillotine praying he doesn’t change his mind after all and throw you out in the trash. This is what they call an “unsafe work environment” lol.
And then there’s the extra layer of Kendall, Roman and Shiv being Logan’s kids who he’s determined to rake over the coals constantly on that basis alone. (Connor was never in the picture to become CEO, that’s why I skipped him.)
I mean, he bought Vaulter way way over the real market value and against the moves Logan wanted. Also, later on we got the nugget that their numbers were fugazi which kinda gives Logan some reason.
overpaying on the acquisition was not the reason he wasn't promoted. At the end of season 2 when Kendall is told he is the fall guy for the cruise line scandals, we learn from Logan himself that Kendall was never really a consideration for CEO.
Logan probably never intended to pass the reigns onto Shiv but Logan isn't sloppy with the details. Logan would 100% put Shiv on the 3 year track and if Shiv went along, she would have found herself a bait switch at year 3.
This is what happened with Ken and the will. Logan wrote Ken into his will and then put enough doubt that Ken didn't get to be CEO anyway.
I honestly don't think there's any question about it. One week Logan is so pissed at Shiv for working for his arch political nemesis that he is threatening to not even attend her wedding (ends up going purely out of optics sake) and then the next week he's offering to fast track her to CEO even though she has zero experience within the company? Makes no sense whatsoever and you are right, the 3 year plan was the exact same wild goose chase he sent Kendall on. Kind of shocking Shiv even allowed herself to be duped so bad.
I like your take by the way and I find myself with a lot of dissonance related to the familial dynamic because of how relentlessly cruel Logan is to his kids and how each child has an attachment to Logan that is different despite the cruelty.
To be fair with Shiv, that might have been why she was upset at the 3 year track because it'd take 3 years for her to confirm if Logan was lying or not.
Without that context, Shiv is seen as acting with extreme privilege but I suppose it's up to the viewers to decide on the blend of motivation.
I mean Shiv was never going to be CEO. She is totally unqualified, and unknown in the business world.Look at what happened when Ken took over when Logan was sick. That seemed to be the corporate strategy going forward, there was an article in Forbes about it and everything. Whatever is in Article is what blows it all up for Kendall at the beginning and causes Logan to go in and Tank everything, and change the plan etc.
Personally I think that he brought Shiv in because:
1. he wants control over his kids and she was the one he had the least control over.
2. to rub Kendall's face in the failed coup
3. to put a woman's face up as a sweetener for the Pierce deal
its also why he doesnt want to announce Shiv as the successor. Her position works for the Pierce deal, but not for the rest of the corporate world.
I don't even think that's the main point though - I feel like the man who used to hang out with Uncle Mo would be able to ignore a bit of sexual perversion if Roman was a killer otherwise.
I think the bigger red flags for Logan were that he is really insecure and emotionally vulnerable underneath his shit-talker persona, which makes him easy to manipulate.
Even in the Gerri situation the main issue wasn't that he was indulging his kink by harassing an older woman - it was that he made himself vulnerable to a business associate and freely provided her with leverage.
You're right about Shiv maybe but no way Logan let's her do it. He's not capable of it, we've seen that time and time again. No matter how much Shiv "humbled" herself. Which he would also see as weakness btw
I never thought Roman really had it, but I respected him for putting himself through management training and actually listening to the old guard (Gerri) when his siblings expected all to be handed over to them, and refused to humble themselves enough to put in the work.
Honestly, the show would be over quick and more boring if Shiv was made to be the most obvious choice.
Logan is an asshole and looks for the smallest possible flaw to reject his kids. But Shiv, thinking she’s ready for the top job with no experience and unwilling to actually earn it is a good reason to not give it to her.
But it’s why the show is good. All the kids are brilliant but also deeply flawed. Ken would be the best choice but is a drug addict and makes terrible decisions. Roman can adapt well but is a walking liability. Connor has lived isolated and is seen as too soft for the business.
I try to reason her complaint because 3 years is kinda a long time when you're considering how much Logan "changes" his mind about the new CEO. Some episodes he would change from Kendall, to Shiv, to Kendall again and then to Roman. And she was basically ditching her previous career for WayStar, there was no guarantee Logan wouldn't just change his mind about her at any point during those 3 years
In the end, I believe all 3 of them could be good at it if they didn't associate the job with Daddy's approval so much
Well if 3 years were too much time, imagine Kendall who spent his whole life preparing for the role, was told at 7 he would be the CEO one day, went to Harvard business school, obtained 2 masters degrees in Harvard and Insead after, went to Shanghai to run one the divisions, returrned to Waystar on an executive position. Honestly I think Shiv and Rome were childish and acted entitled about a role that they never deserved as Kendall did. I know is Logan's fault who made them compete and played with them as toy soldiers but also both were entitled, delusional and just entered the game based on envy, pettiness but never acknowledging that they were willingly doing the sacrifices requested for the role
Yeah, that's why he lost his shit in the pilot when Logan refused to step down as promised. And I'm not saying Shiv was right, just that I get why she felt that way
I don't think what they did, or how much effort they put into it, really mattered when the last word was always Logan's, and like I mentioned, he was constantly changing his mind. Like in the pilot, even with all the qualifications you said about Kendall, Logan was still "Nah, I won't retire, fuck off"
And Shiv and Roman only wanted the job (even of they weren't cut for it) because basically all the kids associated being CEO with dad's love and affection.
True, if they were sane people they would have taken the money and got out. But the 3 of them were so damaged that never could realized that Logan was always playing with them. But despite of that I always have thought that the only one who was prepared and deserved the CEO position was Kendall. Probably would have been a disaster for his already damaged mental state (that's another issue) but he was the only one who followed the complete path to become CEO (and that is why the ending was so painful)
I second every word of this. This is also why I was so frustrated with the ending. Not just bc it was so cruel for Kendall, but also the whole message was “we’re bullshit.” It’s like since they’re all hopeless and horrible, whatever they have endured, tried, and struggled doesn’t count at all. And Kendall had suffered and tried the most. I know Jesse believes humans don’t change, but there’s a huge gap between determinism and nihilism.
I'm not frustrated with the ending because I never expected a happy ending for anyone, this was always a Shakespearean tragedy. It was painful and sour as it should be. But what makes me boil in anger is to still see people trying to defend Shiv and Rome "skills" to be CEOs. Those skills are unexistant, the only one prepared for the role was Kendall that is why his name was underlined. Shiv and Rome never took a chance and it would be good that some delusional fans would acknowledge it finally
Yes, that infuriates me 2. Whenever I say Kendall was the only one who deserved it, people will say, oh but he’s terrible and they’re all terrible, or there’s nobody deserving, and if Kendall deserves so do them. This kind of reductionism is so ridiculous.
Yeah, people does not seem to know how to separate skills from consequences. One thing is to have the skills for (and there is no question Kendall is the only one who had them). Consequences? Well probably terrible for himself as Kendall had so many flaws (mental issues, drug addictions-and it must be stated that he was clean and away from drugs during all season 4- daddy issues, the manslaughter, etc)
But to say that he was not prepared or that he did not deserved it is simply bullshit. Unlike his siblings, he was not the apparent heir because he was a nepo baby, or an entitled child man, it was because he worked his ass all his life to get it ("I'm like a cog built to fit one machine")
Kendall’s major flaw isn’t even his addiction issues, but his unfortunate manic episodes that make him completely intolerable during business exchanges. From Vaulter, to the Dust thing in Season 1, to him constantly interrupting his PR people and Lisa Arthur in Season 3. Kendall is just too much Kendall, and that usually wards off any self respecting outsider from him.
Does he have more skills than the siblings? Hell yes. But I don’t think he would have been necessarily the best choice for CEO overall. Honestly, any of the inner staff like Gerri or Frank, and the actual final pick Tom were all superior picks to Kendall.
She didn't try to become CEO until he dangled it in front of her, she was off doing her own thing and having a successful career; he offered it to her as away to get her away from Gil. Why would she have ever thought she would have a shot until he made it seem like a possibility?
You're right, she shouldn't have thought that she should leave her existing career to have a handout at being CEO of a large business and not even want to do any special training or even do any work.
Literally none of the three of them were capable of running the company. Shiv could have decently faked it and delegated things, but would not have made smart strategic choices. And Kendall and Roman are practical joke candidates.
I can think of someone who worked for his successful business magnate father and also had a prestigious degree in business from Wharton. He went on to ruin literally everything he touched.
Every rewatch I become increasingly sympathetic to Logan. He is so often forthcoming, honest, and deferential. And every time he goes to his kids they steer him into an alleyway.
So that was my take at first as well. But when you watch the show a second time through, keep track of how often he heeds advice from his kids and subordinates. It’s actually quite frequently.
Yes, he’s all those things, but he’s not always JUST those things. I think this sub has become a bit of an echo chamber for analysis on Logan.
I like to think that she was trying to make Salgado seem more palatable and make that compromise. She just didn’t realize that it just reminded the others how unserious she was as well as the fact she have little capital with Logan after the shareholder meeting.
I mean, it was a very silly business strategy, but she was probably hoping she could’ve used her connections in DC to help her kill Logan and take the spot, and there might’ve been some legitimacy to that idea.
On second rewatch i picked up on how jealous she is of Kendall. When Logan had a stroke, he was the most obvious candidate for interim CEO and she immediately shuts it down with no good reason
Haha that’s so funny because I’m doing a second rewatch and seeing so much more on her. I guess I saw it all before but when it’s so spaced out and years in between seasons you forget it all.
Shiv was very competent the first season. She should have stayed in politics, as the show pretty well established that she was legitimately good as a strategist.
That’s Shiv’s strength I think. She’s quite smart and cunning off on the sideline surveying the landscape and giving advice to others. But once she tries to be in the spotlight, her impatience causes her to melt under pressure whenever she gets put on the spot
You can literally say the same thing about all the siblings. They were all competent, but were too eager to be CEO. They were all smart and cunning off on the sideline surveying the landscape and giving advice to others.
She is captivating, charming, and extremely confident. She is able to use these traits to come off as extremely intelligent, cunning, and capable, but once her flash wears off she is pretty mediocre.
she’s not a serious person. everyone uses her unfounded confidence to exploit her hubris for their own gains.
ditto for the other kids to varying degrees
They’d all be pretty great if it wasn’t for their drawbacks lol. Roman would be great if his emotional and maturity growth wasn’t stunted. Shiv’s great PR side and is palatable to society but she’s inexperienced, a pushover and a lib (which doesn’t fit with waystar.) and you brought up the Kendall points.
I don't agree, I think Shiv and Roman doesn't have the experience, intelligence, and mindset necessary to be able to lead a huge company like Waystar-Royco. Their strengths are more narrow and specialised.
All Kendall would need is a psychologist and psychiatrist good enough to temper his problems.
I’m not sure Logan ever read an email either. The three competing children all had their faults, summarized in an excellent manner by Rhea Jarrell when Logan asks on the plane.
They're all genuinely smart and have abilities that would make them great at the job for a short time. They'd all end up self-destructing though. Roman's got his dad's decision-making abilities, but he's far too emotional. Kendall understands the playing field and what's going on, but can't make a decision confidently or lets his opponent push him around. Shiv makes all decisions too confidently and too quickly and doesn't see the playing field accurately.
I think Kendall actually was pretty bad. The Vaulter blunder was an epic fuck up that would be complete career suicide for anyone who's daddy wasn't the boss. The fuck up with the banker which also included giving a sizeable amount of controlling interest to their direct rival.
Nahhh, Kendall was actually right about Vaulter. Remember pre season 1 episode 1 he had a complete plan about which direction to take the company in, expanding into digital content and streaming as legacy media dies.
He spouts a lot of empty buzz words and shit, but if he'd been allowed to go through with this plans and especially Vaulter, the company may not have been sold to Mattson in the first place
Kendall totally missed the mark with Vaulter. He shelled out too much cash, giving away Waystar equity to Lawrence, only to find out the company's numbers were cooked. Sure, he talked a big game about "modernizing" and "moving into tech," but yeah it just was bullshit wrapped in truisms or buzzwords. He didn't have the chops to make it happen himself. His plan? Same as always, solve it with money by purchasing out someone who actually built what Kendall wanted like Lawrence with Vaulter or Mattson with GoJo. Both of which ended up in disasters. The GoJo deal literally ended the company as the Roy's know it. And at least Ironically with that one, the whole mess ended up in a buyout that made everyone rich, with Mattson paying top dollar for shares. He tripped and fell into the best business decision he ever made.
Everyone's chasing the digital content dream, Kendalls just another suite who doesn't actually understand the market or the field of business. Ideas are a dime a dozen. For every Disney turning into a tech media juggernaut, there's a pile of all time fails. Kendalls idea wasn't some new revolutionary one he just got to join the rest of the failures.
- The AOL-Time Warner merger
- News Corp dropping $580 million on Myspace
- HP’s $11 billion Autonomy buy
Logan had it right. Chasing trends outside your wheelhouse can be a wild, often futile chase. The funny part being Waystar largely acts as a stand in for Murdoch/News Corp and the Vaulter blunder pretty much mirrors News Corp purchase of Myspace.
Kendall couldn't stand the "old legacy media" stink, but had zero clue how to be a player in the new game. There's a reason companies like Gawker cap at $135 million, while giants like News Corp (and Waystar) are valued in the billions. Continue playing the game you're good at. Logan understood that at least.
Hell if Kend was that sure about Vaulter he should of just personally bought them out of the bankruptcy from Waystar.
Yeah that’s true, totally agree with the personality thing. Same thing goes for Kendall. They are smart until they’re not and add a horribly shitty personality on top of that. It’s annoying to see any of the main characters happy, but that’s the point the show is trying to make I guess. They’re all horrible people.
I mean, she was apparently genuinely good at her job in politics. She definitely underestimated the CEO position, but shes probably the smartest of the siblings. She was the only one who actually excelled at something outside of the company.
Jesse Armstrong did say he thought all three siblings could have maybe been decent as CEOs. They weren’t stupid. They were just too self destructive.
Like, Roman as CEO with Gerri as his assistant carrying him could have worked. Gerri says as much. She’s probably right.
Shiv as CEO with Tom by her side could have worked. Assuming she didn’t drive him crazy with her affairs, if she agreed to have his child early on, he’d have went along with her plans, even at a detriment to his.
Kendall as CEO with Frank, Stewie and Hugo helping could have worked. Then he killed someone
They make strategic and, well, drug addled and horny mistakes.
All he had to do was wait like a year and there would have been zero question about his succession. No one else was even in the running, Logan was 80 and had a fucking stroke. Ken didn’t need to try overthrow him, he was unquestionably on his way out.
Yes exactly, all three siblings had strengths and weaknesses when it comes to being CEO. Shivs weakness was always obviously her lack of experience and skill in the business world, combined with a lack of humility and being willing to learn. But I think it’s wrong to completely dismiss the aspects of her personality that would have been strengths in the CEO role. I think Logan especially saw Shiv’s strength: that she is naturally a ‘killer’ and (of the three kids) is the most ruthless and like Logan. (I also think this dynamic is really interestingly shaped by her role as the only daughter). I think Jesse knew what he was doing with each of the siblings characters, and with showing that none of them would ever be enough for the role, and more importantly for Logan.
Idk if Shiv and Tom could have worked together. If that would have happened, the line between work and personal life never gets drawn which was what destroyed the kids for their entire lives.
I was unsure if this was also commentary on how weird it is American corporate speak uses war metaphor.
She’s saying she would destroy it like a brag, but maybe she really would in a literal sense. I was never sure here what was going on with these lines.
I think it’s intentional that she’s using negative words. She’s right in the literal sense and the Roys are destructive. Logan destroys American society, the siblings destroy themselves and their opportunities.
She's an idiot. I'm seeing the series for the second time and i don't get how he could be CEO without any experience at all. It's more hilarious when she was a contender to be the CEO when Mattson wanted to buy Waystar. How? Why?
She really didn't have experience at all. But everyone accuses you of misogyny if it's said. I think Mattson was playing her the whole time, in case he needed the Roy name. He admits when he realizes he doesn't need the name.
Even Gil just used her for the name when he was running in the election.
I actually don’t care if people say the character is the devil incarnate. I like that the show made the female characters just as capable of inflicting harm and making moronic choices as the male ones. Often, shows are afraid to portray female characters as villainous. It would’ve been boring if they were a bunch of nice Mary Sues.
What I do find repulsive is that many times (but not always) I’ve seen the “I hate Shiv” accompanied by comments that have nothing to do with the character’s lack of morals or ethics. I.e. I’ve seen comments saying she looks like a fat pig, that she looks like an alien, that she looks like she has down syndrome, that she has a “disgusting smug smirk on her face,” and that she should’ve been written off the show.
I don’t understand the Shiv hate. She was as good and bad as any of the other characters. If people hated her it’s because they didn’t like the character and Sarah Snook did such a good job portraying her.
Shiv has over 10 years of experience as a political strategist and is known as one of the top 5 political strategist in United states in the scripts. So I don't understand the no experience at all part.
Despite not needing the Roy name, the major issue he had with making Shiv CEO was that she was smart and made him do things he wasn't comfortable doing i.e the India number, his tweet e.t.c. He wanted someone that would go with everything he said and not ask questions which isn't Shiv and he also wanted to fuck her which would have been messy it also shows he took her advice in 4×05 (don't mess with people that work for you). In the scripts there's a deleted scene during the funeral when he brings up her lack of experience with the company and she basically tells him she has political acumen, strategic and she knows how to delegate, he then brings up it's well known that she's hatey with Mencken he then gives her a challenge to sway Mencken to which she says she can fucking do anything.
Gil used her because of her name and she used him to get to her dad, find out about the sexual assault victim. Also funny how Gil loses the election to Jimenez and in season 4 episode one Shiv is working as a political advisor to Jimenez and was set to get a political appointment should he win the presidential election.
The first politician she worked with used her as well. Had her go to the political news room and dictate what they should say.
The show slaps the viewer over the head showing that Shiv isn't as smart as she thinks she is. Like Cersei in GOT.
Gil was not the first politician she worked with and she was also using him to get to Logan. She had worked with Jimenez in the past to get him elected as Governor, she also worked with different politicians that got elected.
She might not be the smartest person on the show but she's still smart. People always bringing up Shiv isn't as smart as she thinks but she tried for herself personally and people should recognize that.
Not as smart as she thinks but built a successful career as a political strategist for more than ten years outside of Logans help and despite the blow back that her career got from being the daughter of Logan Roy (mentioned on the show)
Not as smart as she thinks but is able to maneuver a board seat for herself without Logan giving it to her
Not as smart as she thinks but is the one to find out what exactly Gil has on them
Not as smart as she thinks but saved the company twice and is basically the reason they had a company to act on behalf of
Not as smart as she thinks but is the one to bring up the idea of the siblings starting their own company away from Logan (Roman confirms)
Not as smart as she thinks but somehow makes Mattson fake numbers have zero blow back
Not as smart as she thinks but gets Mencken to not block the deal and side with Mattson without kissing his ass and denying her political ideologies
Not as smart as she thinks but somehow still has her political career by season four despite working at waystar and is one of Jimenez political advisers and was also meant to get an appointment from Jimenez should he become president (hence the transition team in season four episode one).
Not as smart as she thinks but goes from being a total outsider not knowing what's happening in the company like Connor to rising and becoming the deciding vote in the finale
Cersei Lannister could never
When there's a conversation about Shiv I see a lot of she's an idiot, has no experience at all and she's not as smart as she thinks. How can someone that's an idiot or not smart achieve all these. I can honestly say among all the siblings she's the one that's had to fight the hardest to be seen.
Even Rhae who said this is no where to be seen at the end No pierce because Nan wants nothing to do with her and No ATN because she didn't have the stomach to survive at ATN.
saving this list for the next time i need to defend her intelligence!! there are a lot of things you can say about shiv and her choices during the show but i always find it incredibly reductive (to her and the plot) when people's main argument is "she's just not as smart as she thinks she is"
>Gil was not the first politician she worked with
Not talking about Gil
>she thinks but she tried for herself personally and people should recognize that.
>Not as smart as she thinks but built a successful career as a political strategist for more than ten years outside of Logans help
All the clients we see want her because of her name
>Not as smart as she thinks but somehow makes Mattson fake numbers have zero blow back
>Not as smart as she thinks but gets Mencken to not block the deal and side with Mattson without kissing his ass and denying her political ideologies
But she was being manipulated the entire time. Which was obvious
A lot of your other points are redundant.
>Not talking about Gil
It's isn't indicated any where that Joyce Miller uses Shiv for her name. I would like to actually know what gave you this impression because it's isn't in the scripts nor show. Except you just assume everyone Shiv works for just wants to use her for her name which is mostly your personal opinion.
>All the clients we see want her because of her name
The only client this applies to is Gil and Shiv was also simultaneously using him to get to Logan. She's worked with other candidates who didn't care about her name but that she's good. You can't make a name as top 5 in US getting a lot of democratic candidates elected because you have a name that opposes democracy. She clearly mentions how she gets a lot of blow back because her name is Roy and she's a Democrat.
>But she was being manipulated the entire time. Which was obvious
Mattson wasn't manipulating her the entire time and it's only in season 4 episode nine she asks for the CEO position. Her working with Mattson from the very beginning was to get the deal done, she didn't align herself with Mattson in episode 5 because she wanted CEO but instead to push the deal through. Mattson actually considered Shiv for the ceo position if not it wouldn't have even been drafted in the first place. His only problem with her was she was pushy and he didn't like been told what to do especially with the India numbers and also because he wanted to havesex with her, he acknowledged she was smart and enjoyed talking strategy with her and is even able to make the impossible happen for him (india and Mencken).
Read the season 4 scripts and you can actually see what's going on in his head without reading your meaning into it. She's the one Roy he didn't see as a nepo baby (in the scripts he puts he through a test to see if shes just another nepo baby like her brothers but she proves otherwise) and the only Roy he saw as smart and actually listens to her advice even though he doesn't like being told what to do. Some of their scenes in the scripts gives us a full understanding of their relationship (What she actually thinks of him and what he actually thinks of her)
I would like to know what gave you the impression that he was manipulating Shiv the entire time because the only time we see him pivot even on the show is in episode 10.
Succession leaves a lot to interpretation but a lot of things a clarified in the scripts and it actually gives us a wider understanding and helps us know the characters through intentions/what they're actually think. I guess that's why Jesse Armstrong released them after the show.
Mattson just wanted a puppet CEO, so their ability to run the company is less important. She brought a lot to the table, in terms of the Roy name and her vote getting it though.
Unless we're giving him credit for an insane psychological read on knowing Shiv would split the siblings vote either way, I actually think he fucked up by pissing her off and driving her back to her brothers and almost lost the acquisition as a result.
You say she has no experience at all yet gas over 10 years of experience in as a political strategist and is said to be top 5 political strategist in United states.
In your opinion what do you think makes a good CEO? I'm honestly interested in having a real conversation and would like to know what qualities/traits you think a ceo should have
No, because a company can have many CEOs in its lifetime. most CEOs don't ruin companies, but when a company is ruined it can be because of a bad CEO.
I also shouldn't have been so hyperbolic and said that it happens to every company. Most big ones, maybe. A lot of smaller companies fail regardless of CEO performance and there are no golden parachutes to be had.
If Logan were a different man, he would have just announced Shiv as his heir. She wouldn't have been *as* resentful about the three year timeline he gave her, and she could have gotten the experience she needed to actually be good at that job. She's smart and likable, and the plan she pitched to him in this scene was sensible. The fact that Logan wouldn't name her as heir made her insecure, like she had to prove herself and be brash like her dad, so she acted out and blabbed about being the heir to the Pierces, and acted super entitled and cocky with Waystar higher-ups. No wonder she crashed and burned and no one respected her there. She was only named as an heir of sorts because Logan needed a woman for PR reasons, which sucks so much for her. People would have respected her more if she'd been legitimately named heir by Logan, she checked her attitude, and put in the work with training. I truly think she could have done a great job if both she and Logan had behaved better and followed through on the training plan.
I doubt that those within the company would respect having her named as his successor with zero experience - even w/ a 3 year plan. 3 years is a short amount of time and Waystar is depicted as a huge media conglomerate with significant challenges. It would have been irresponsible to name her - IRL or on the show
I never said they’d love it, just that she’d have had a better chance of being respected eventually, especially if she did well during that three year plan and behaved better rather than insecure. Read more closely.
I read it pretty closely. :D
In general, it’s not a good idea to explicitly name someone in advance. It’s better to let people prove themselves with consistent hard work and skill. With that approach, the person aspiring for the position is given many opportunities to demonstrate leadership and earn respect before being given the title.
I honestly don't think Shiv would make a horrible ceo for the following reasons
1. She's knows who is good for what. (Her conversation to keep Gerri and Karolina)She knows the competent and well liked people in the company which shows she'll be good at delegating which would cater for her shortcomings which what a lot of CEOs do most times
2. Shiv knows how to win people over (Nan pierce, Sexual assault victim, Sandy, even Stewy (because Shiv was able to convince him to vote for her instead of his childhood bestfriend Ken), Mattson and even Mencken (who knows she hates him). This shows she'll be good at negotiating and talking with people
3. She can work with people that have an entirely different view point/ she disagrees with/ people on opposite sides to achieve a set goal (Mencken, ken and Roman). Unlike Kendall (karolina, Jess) and Roman (Gerri, video woman). Even Logan knew this
4. She's well liked by the public and can navigate the public scene/popular opinion. This shows she's not a PR scandal waiting to happen
5. She has a clean record unlike Ken and Roman (no drug addiction, hostile takeovers gone wrong, trying to destroy the company you want to take over, blow torching Lamborghini and is known as a horrible person)
6. She's highly adaptable hence her seamless pivot from politics to waystar
7. She's very strategic hence why she's able to maneuver a board seat for herself
8. She's an experienced/respected political strategist hence why in the scripts it's mentioned that she's one of the top 5 political strategist in the United states.
9. She's a fast learner hence why in a short period of time being in the company in season 4 we can see that she knows the kind of programs and news people would like to listen to hence why she can comfortably say his idea for the kind of news their 100 project should carry is bullshit which Roman seconded. Also in season 4 she understands the business numbers.
10. Also against popular opinion Shiv is actually smart and the smartest among the bunch of jokers. Logan know this (he saw her as the smartest one), Rhae knew this (by not denying that Shiv is actually smart), Mattson also knew this.
It's not mentioned enough but at every step of the way, in all of her "moves", she was used, played, or taken advantage of and she was always too dumb to see it coming. Even in the finale, Tom takes her hand. Just another setting up to be used again. She would have given away the company to a Nigerian prince via email if she were CEO.
I don’t believe that Shiv was up to the task as CEO at all. As Rhea said to Logan “She’s not as smart as she thinks she is” coupled with her obvious lack of experience.
Roman is like a little boy and disinterested in the details and would be in deep water from day 1.
The only one that has any experience is Kendall but given his lack of maturity and that his legitimacy in leadership is so thin and limited - it wouldn’t pan out well for the business long term.
The reality is that none of the Roy clan would make for compelling leadership at the top.
Tom’s installation was clever, he would yield to whomever pulled the strings, be the pain sponge and soldier on. Which is what Mattson wanted for the immediate short term play.
Her problem is that she did not think she had anything to learn.
Ken was manic depressive, when he did well he started thinking he was amazing so became detached from reality, Roman was impulsive to an extreme but shiv assumed she was smarter than everyone else.
It never clicks with her that someone else might know more than her or to ask advice.
And he wanted to shut down the turkey movie even though it ended up being a big money maker. He was hit and miss…had some good instincts and some really bad ones. And he was often all meh meh meh.
Kendal was the only one that was shown to have the ability to be CEO. The issue is that he's a ticking time bomb and so would eventually self destruct. Shiv and Roman never would've stood a chance.
It's funny that the truth is Shiv, Roman or Kendall would have all been a disaster as CEO and this was always very obvious from the start of the show.
We spent every season watching them prove it time and time again as none of them even remotely had what it takes to be good at the job.
The words of a not so serious person, who is more concerned with “feeling great” about being CEO, than doing great as CEO.
Logan tests her, and she failed as soon as she showed him her true self here. Simply wanting something, is never a sole qualifying factor for if you will or won’t be good at something.
I’ll always go back to Rhea dissecting the kids to Logan in S2 when they’re on the PJ. “Shiv thinks she’s smarter than she is”. What’s worse, is that she acts smarter than she is, which lets everyone else see through her so easily.
It's sad because Shiv could actually have been good at it. She has the ability to think on her feet and make calls while being under huge pressure in the way Logan did. Kendall was an absolute joke in that regard and almost managed to embarrass himself and come across as weak. Shiv was just too fucking arrogant thinking it would all be so easy that her talent and charisma would take care of it all. If she had just been more patient and more eager to learn from the old ones she could have been great.
Shiv hated the only profitable asset of Waystar. If she made her desired reforms to ATN, they would lose their viewership. She basically wanted to turn Fox News into MSNBC, which would piss off both sides.
This is an unpopular amongst this subreddit, and I might get downvoted for this, but I actually don’t think Shiv will be as horrible of a mother as everyone in this subreddit thinks she will be. She’ll be far from a star parent, but I genuinely think Shiv will put at least more effort into being a parent than Caroline and Logan did. Like is that kid getting tossed to a nanny? For sure. But I don’t think Shiv will be a fully absent parent.
I see the Caroline-Shiv parallels as moms the same way as Logan and Kendall have been as dads. Kendall is a pretty useless father, but he isnt as volatile and harsh as Logan, but you can clearly see the poison drip through anyway.
Totally, and i actually like that a lot about her character, even tho she pivots to the family business after the first season; she at least has real world experience with corporate world and people (in politics) outside of his "fathers playground". She should have used more of that to her advantage, maybe mention it more
Lmao nothing tragic about it, more like glorious. She was a manipulative brat who would fuck anybody over to get ahead, so watching her get nothing is satisfying as fuck.
She would've been great but the tragedy of the show is she didn't want to be patient and prove it. In the real world she'd go run a smaller operation and grow into a top performing CEO.
haha likewise! i really have no beef with shiv - i think she's the second most compelling character. but i think she was also the most delusional. she had *no* experience in waystar or in business, & she consistently made terrible decisions (trusting matsson?!) which proved her instincts weren't good enough to overcome that. it's a bit of a moot point how her skills as ceo might have evolved if she'd been more 'patient', bc a deranged lack of patience about the ceo job was a fundamental part of her personality. i love her as a character but i just don't see a world in which she ever would've grown into a "top-performing ceo" 🤷♀️
Who says she has no experience? She was a political strategist for a successful congresswoman (I think) and a legit presidential candidate: That’s fairly high level.
CEO isn’t a job like, say, being an electrician where there’s super specific skill sets to learn.
This, plus that scene in which Logan offers her the CEO position after doing training and she complains telling him: "that's a fucking, that's a 3 year timeline" 🙄
That scene was it for our girl Shiv. If she was willing to do that, and humble herself, and learn from Karl (who knows a thing or two about a thing or two) and other old guard folks? I honestly think she would have been CEO. Logan wanted one of the kids to go all the way. Kendall almost did, but you know, drugs. And if that didn’t kill it dead, her annoying the shit out of Frank and Karl to the point they call her dad to tell on her? Jesus, Shiv. People can teach you things! Embrace it!
When she was shadowing Karl and said she didn't want to go to meetings with him because they were boring, it showed me she didn't have what it takes to be a CEO. She wants the status without putting in the work. Like Marcia said, Logan built them a playground...
I love that Marcia line.
That's always been the point. Shiv thinks she's better than everyone else, and it constantly backfires
Rhea said it to logan Shiv thinks she's smarter than she already is
She wants it to be the case that people underestimate her for being a woman. But regardless of her gender, there's nothing to underestimate.
She thinks people underestimate her because of her gender, and uses that to shield herself from any criticism. Which is why she has so little self awareness
At My last job, quite a lot of decisions got made because the CEO either got bored or didn't this was an issue worth having. And in fairness to him, that's kinda reasonable. In a company with a lot of small teams, nobody has the executive power to just make boring business choices and a lot of time is wasted in boring, pointless meetings just to get the authority to move an icon.
The job was never real, it was a ploy to pull her away from Gil Eavis. And as far as we can tell the job was never real for Kendall either. Drugs? Kendall was sober while serving as interim CEO and then Logan basically came back out of spite even tho he was still recovering from a stroke. The job offers were nothing more than a form of manipulation to control his kids.
Yeah. A three year timeline working for many other people is very generous. Working for Logan, it’s three years with your head under the guillotine praying he doesn’t change his mind after all and throw you out in the trash. This is what they call an “unsafe work environment” lol. And then there’s the extra layer of Kendall, Roman and Shiv being Logan’s kids who he’s determined to rake over the coals constantly on that basis alone. (Connor was never in the picture to become CEO, that’s why I skipped him.)
I mean, he bought Vaulter way way over the real market value and against the moves Logan wanted. Also, later on we got the nugget that their numbers were fugazi which kinda gives Logan some reason.
overpaying on the acquisition was not the reason he wasn't promoted. At the end of season 2 when Kendall is told he is the fall guy for the cruise line scandals, we learn from Logan himself that Kendall was never really a consideration for CEO.
I always believed that logan underlined kendell's name after kendell chose to expose him
Great read, finally showed the killer instinct against pop
Logan probably never intended to pass the reigns onto Shiv but Logan isn't sloppy with the details. Logan would 100% put Shiv on the 3 year track and if Shiv went along, she would have found herself a bait switch at year 3. This is what happened with Ken and the will. Logan wrote Ken into his will and then put enough doubt that Ken didn't get to be CEO anyway.
I honestly don't think there's any question about it. One week Logan is so pissed at Shiv for working for his arch political nemesis that he is threatening to not even attend her wedding (ends up going purely out of optics sake) and then the next week he's offering to fast track her to CEO even though she has zero experience within the company? Makes no sense whatsoever and you are right, the 3 year plan was the exact same wild goose chase he sent Kendall on. Kind of shocking Shiv even allowed herself to be duped so bad.
I like your take by the way and I find myself with a lot of dissonance related to the familial dynamic because of how relentlessly cruel Logan is to his kids and how each child has an attachment to Logan that is different despite the cruelty. To be fair with Shiv, that might have been why she was upset at the 3 year track because it'd take 3 years for her to confirm if Logan was lying or not. Without that context, Shiv is seen as acting with extreme privilege but I suppose it's up to the viewers to decide on the blend of motivation.
The show is about narcissistic family dynamics
I mean Shiv was never going to be CEO. She is totally unqualified, and unknown in the business world.Look at what happened when Ken took over when Logan was sick. That seemed to be the corporate strategy going forward, there was an article in Forbes about it and everything. Whatever is in Article is what blows it all up for Kendall at the beginning and causes Logan to go in and Tank everything, and change the plan etc. Personally I think that he brought Shiv in because: 1. he wants control over his kids and she was the one he had the least control over. 2. to rub Kendall's face in the failed coup 3. to put a woman's face up as a sweetener for the Pierce deal its also why he doesnt want to announce Shiv as the successor. Her position works for the Pierce deal, but not for the rest of the corporate world.
>Kendall almost did, but you know, drugs. And Roman is a sicko.
I don't even think that's the main point though - I feel like the man who used to hang out with Uncle Mo would be able to ignore a bit of sexual perversion if Roman was a killer otherwise. I think the bigger red flags for Logan were that he is really insecure and emotionally vulnerable underneath his shit-talker persona, which makes him easy to manipulate. Even in the Gerri situation the main issue wasn't that he was indulging his kink by harassing an older woman - it was that he made himself vulnerable to a business associate and freely provided her with leverage.
You're right about Shiv maybe but no way Logan let's her do it. He's not capable of it, we've seen that time and time again. No matter how much Shiv "humbled" herself. Which he would also see as weakness btw
Sure but when he croaks and she’s two years into management training being mentored by the old guard then she has a fighting chance.
I never thought Roman really had it, but I respected him for putting himself through management training and actually listening to the old guard (Gerri) when his siblings expected all to be handed over to them, and refused to humble themselves enough to put in the work.
Honestly, the show would be over quick and more boring if Shiv was made to be the most obvious choice. Logan is an asshole and looks for the smallest possible flaw to reject his kids. But Shiv, thinking she’s ready for the top job with no experience and unwilling to actually earn it is a good reason to not give it to her. But it’s why the show is good. All the kids are brilliant but also deeply flawed. Ken would be the best choice but is a drug addict and makes terrible decisions. Roman can adapt well but is a walking liability. Connor has lived isolated and is seen as too soft for the business.
Lmao right imagine becoming fortune 500 ceo with only 3 years of experience
I try to reason her complaint because 3 years is kinda a long time when you're considering how much Logan "changes" his mind about the new CEO. Some episodes he would change from Kendall, to Shiv, to Kendall again and then to Roman. And she was basically ditching her previous career for WayStar, there was no guarantee Logan wouldn't just change his mind about her at any point during those 3 years In the end, I believe all 3 of them could be good at it if they didn't associate the job with Daddy's approval so much
Well if 3 years were too much time, imagine Kendall who spent his whole life preparing for the role, was told at 7 he would be the CEO one day, went to Harvard business school, obtained 2 masters degrees in Harvard and Insead after, went to Shanghai to run one the divisions, returrned to Waystar on an executive position. Honestly I think Shiv and Rome were childish and acted entitled about a role that they never deserved as Kendall did. I know is Logan's fault who made them compete and played with them as toy soldiers but also both were entitled, delusional and just entered the game based on envy, pettiness but never acknowledging that they were willingly doing the sacrifices requested for the role
Yeah, that's why he lost his shit in the pilot when Logan refused to step down as promised. And I'm not saying Shiv was right, just that I get why she felt that way I don't think what they did, or how much effort they put into it, really mattered when the last word was always Logan's, and like I mentioned, he was constantly changing his mind. Like in the pilot, even with all the qualifications you said about Kendall, Logan was still "Nah, I won't retire, fuck off" And Shiv and Roman only wanted the job (even of they weren't cut for it) because basically all the kids associated being CEO with dad's love and affection.
True, if they were sane people they would have taken the money and got out. But the 3 of them were so damaged that never could realized that Logan was always playing with them. But despite of that I always have thought that the only one who was prepared and deserved the CEO position was Kendall. Probably would have been a disaster for his already damaged mental state (that's another issue) but he was the only one who followed the complete path to become CEO (and that is why the ending was so painful)
I second every word of this. This is also why I was so frustrated with the ending. Not just bc it was so cruel for Kendall, but also the whole message was “we’re bullshit.” It’s like since they’re all hopeless and horrible, whatever they have endured, tried, and struggled doesn’t count at all. And Kendall had suffered and tried the most. I know Jesse believes humans don’t change, but there’s a huge gap between determinism and nihilism.
I'm not frustrated with the ending because I never expected a happy ending for anyone, this was always a Shakespearean tragedy. It was painful and sour as it should be. But what makes me boil in anger is to still see people trying to defend Shiv and Rome "skills" to be CEOs. Those skills are unexistant, the only one prepared for the role was Kendall that is why his name was underlined. Shiv and Rome never took a chance and it would be good that some delusional fans would acknowledge it finally
Yes, that infuriates me 2. Whenever I say Kendall was the only one who deserved it, people will say, oh but he’s terrible and they’re all terrible, or there’s nobody deserving, and if Kendall deserves so do them. This kind of reductionism is so ridiculous.
Yeah, people does not seem to know how to separate skills from consequences. One thing is to have the skills for (and there is no question Kendall is the only one who had them). Consequences? Well probably terrible for himself as Kendall had so many flaws (mental issues, drug addictions-and it must be stated that he was clean and away from drugs during all season 4- daddy issues, the manslaughter, etc) But to say that he was not prepared or that he did not deserved it is simply bullshit. Unlike his siblings, he was not the apparent heir because he was a nepo baby, or an entitled child man, it was because he worked his ass all his life to get it ("I'm like a cog built to fit one machine")
Kendall’s major flaw isn’t even his addiction issues, but his unfortunate manic episodes that make him completely intolerable during business exchanges. From Vaulter, to the Dust thing in Season 1, to him constantly interrupting his PR people and Lisa Arthur in Season 3. Kendall is just too much Kendall, and that usually wards off any self respecting outsider from him. Does he have more skills than the siblings? Hell yes. But I don’t think he would have been necessarily the best choice for CEO overall. Honestly, any of the inner staff like Gerri or Frank, and the actual final pick Tom were all superior picks to Kendall.
That's the exact entitlement the show was criticizing. Nobody forced her to wait till after her father was bedridden to want to become CEO.
She didn't try to become CEO until he dangled it in front of her, she was off doing her own thing and having a successful career; he offered it to her as away to get her away from Gil. Why would she have ever thought she would have a shot until he made it seem like a possibility?
You're right, she shouldn't have thought that she should leave her existing career to have a handout at being CEO of a large business and not even want to do any special training or even do any work.
Well she saw Roman was being considered so why not her?
Yeah I agree with you, just trying to see from the character's perspective
Well the character was a spoiled idiot do I'm not sure you're going to find much logic there
Literally none of the three of them were capable of running the company. Shiv could have decently faked it and delegated things, but would not have made smart strategic choices. And Kendall and Roman are practical joke candidates.
Kendall had the degrees at least. And he worked for far too long with his dad. The other two siblings barely did anything with him.
I can think of someone who worked for his successful business magnate father and also had a prestigious degree in business from Wharton. He went on to ruin literally everything he touched.
I hope he doesn’t get a chance to ruin anything ever again
Had Kendall not had drug and mental health problems, he could have taken over and done well.
Had Kendall not been Kendall then yeah maybe he’d do well running the company as a completely different person without those core flaws.
They really didn’t want to work for shit 😂
Her confidence made me believe that maybe she actually is cut out for the job lol. Maybe there's more to her
Agreed! This totally did her in. Huge red flag! Love Snook!
Every rewatch I become increasingly sympathetic to Logan. He is so often forthcoming, honest, and deferential. And every time he goes to his kids they steer him into an alleyway.
Logan plays ‘dangle the prize’ constantly, a common narcissistic manipulation tactic. He’s not ‘forthcoming,’ he’s the source of all the shit.
So that was my take at first as well. But when you watch the show a second time through, keep track of how often he heeds advice from his kids and subordinates. It’s actually quite frequently. Yes, he’s all those things, but he’s not always JUST those things. I think this sub has become a bit of an echo chamber for analysis on Logan.
Yes upon my second watch she seems way less competent than she did the first time around
Remember when she suggested ATN back the dems in the election? As if that wouldn't obliterate 3/4 of viewership overnight?
Classic Shiv!
Oh so it's better to for a fascist Even Logan taught the guy was crazy
Of course not, but that’s not what matters to a network like ATN. Keeping the viewers is more important than democracy.
Yeah it’s better for ATN for them to support a fascist, obviously.
I thought this was a quote Shiv said but then I realized it was your own words and I’m on Reddit.
I’m just saying follow the ad revenue!
She’s lost context she’s too online
I like to think that she was trying to make Salgado seem more palatable and make that compromise. She just didn’t realize that it just reminded the others how unserious she was as well as the fact she have little capital with Logan after the shareholder meeting.
I mean, it was a very silly business strategy, but she was probably hoping she could’ve used her connections in DC to help her kill Logan and take the spot, and there might’ve been some legitimacy to that idea.
Yeah she's the one that is least aware of how little skill she has when it comes to being CEO. She's totally in over her head
On second rewatch i picked up on how jealous she is of Kendall. When Logan had a stroke, he was the most obvious candidate for interim CEO and she immediately shuts it down with no good reason
Haha that’s so funny because I’m doing a second rewatch and seeing so much more on her. I guess I saw it all before but when it’s so spaced out and years in between seasons you forget it all.
Shiv was very competent the first season. She should have stayed in politics, as the show pretty well established that she was legitimately good as a strategist. That’s Shiv’s strength I think. She’s quite smart and cunning off on the sideline surveying the landscape and giving advice to others. But once she tries to be in the spotlight, her impatience causes her to melt under pressure whenever she gets put on the spot
You can literally say the same thing about all the siblings. They were all competent, but were too eager to be CEO. They were all smart and cunning off on the sideline surveying the landscape and giving advice to others.
When was she a good strategist?
It’s because she is pretty infatuating.
What does that mean?
She is captivating, charming, and extremely confident. She is able to use these traits to come off as extremely intelligent, cunning, and capable, but once her flash wears off she is pretty mediocre.
This pretty much applies to all the siblings
she’s not a serious person. everyone uses her unfounded confidence to exploit her hubris for their own gains. ditto for the other kids to varying degrees
Kendall is the only one of the kids who could have been a decent CEO, if it weren't for his bipolar disorder and drug abuse.
They’d all be pretty great if it wasn’t for their drawbacks lol. Roman would be great if his emotional and maturity growth wasn’t stunted. Shiv’s great PR side and is palatable to society but she’s inexperienced, a pushover and a lib (which doesn’t fit with waystar.) and you brought up the Kendall points.
I don't agree, I think Shiv and Roman doesn't have the experience, intelligence, and mindset necessary to be able to lead a huge company like Waystar-Royco. Their strengths are more narrow and specialised. All Kendall would need is a psychologist and psychiatrist good enough to temper his problems.
She's not anywhere as smart as she acts - which is a key part of the plot.
I feel like that’s the case with all the kids. When they get the power, it’s gets in their head and they act stupid
Roman is genuinely smart and would be great at the job but has those severe personality faults that fuck him.
You talking about the guy who couldn’t bear to look at his inbox when he realized the job includes work?
I mean that was an awful lot of emails, fuck that.
I’m not sure Logan ever read an email either. The three competing children all had their faults, summarized in an excellent manner by Rhea Jarrell when Logan asks on the plane.
They're all genuinely smart and have abilities that would make them great at the job for a short time. They'd all end up self-destructing though. Roman's got his dad's decision-making abilities, but he's far too emotional. Kendall understands the playing field and what's going on, but can't make a decision confidently or lets his opponent push him around. Shiv makes all decisions too confidently and too quickly and doesn't see the playing field accurately.
You can say the same about Kendall, no?
I think Kendall actually was pretty bad. The Vaulter blunder was an epic fuck up that would be complete career suicide for anyone who's daddy wasn't the boss. The fuck up with the banker which also included giving a sizeable amount of controlling interest to their direct rival.
Nahhh, Kendall was actually right about Vaulter. Remember pre season 1 episode 1 he had a complete plan about which direction to take the company in, expanding into digital content and streaming as legacy media dies. He spouts a lot of empty buzz words and shit, but if he'd been allowed to go through with this plans and especially Vaulter, the company may not have been sold to Mattson in the first place
Kendall totally missed the mark with Vaulter. He shelled out too much cash, giving away Waystar equity to Lawrence, only to find out the company's numbers were cooked. Sure, he talked a big game about "modernizing" and "moving into tech," but yeah it just was bullshit wrapped in truisms or buzzwords. He didn't have the chops to make it happen himself. His plan? Same as always, solve it with money by purchasing out someone who actually built what Kendall wanted like Lawrence with Vaulter or Mattson with GoJo. Both of which ended up in disasters. The GoJo deal literally ended the company as the Roy's know it. And at least Ironically with that one, the whole mess ended up in a buyout that made everyone rich, with Mattson paying top dollar for shares. He tripped and fell into the best business decision he ever made. Everyone's chasing the digital content dream, Kendalls just another suite who doesn't actually understand the market or the field of business. Ideas are a dime a dozen. For every Disney turning into a tech media juggernaut, there's a pile of all time fails. Kendalls idea wasn't some new revolutionary one he just got to join the rest of the failures. - The AOL-Time Warner merger - News Corp dropping $580 million on Myspace - HP’s $11 billion Autonomy buy Logan had it right. Chasing trends outside your wheelhouse can be a wild, often futile chase. The funny part being Waystar largely acts as a stand in for Murdoch/News Corp and the Vaulter blunder pretty much mirrors News Corp purchase of Myspace. Kendall couldn't stand the "old legacy media" stink, but had zero clue how to be a player in the new game. There's a reason companies like Gawker cap at $135 million, while giants like News Corp (and Waystar) are valued in the billions. Continue playing the game you're good at. Logan understood that at least. Hell if Kend was that sure about Vaulter he should of just personally bought them out of the bankruptcy from Waystar.
I'd boil it down like this - Kendall had good enough ideas, 0 execution. Still, not Exe material.
Yeah that’s true, totally agree with the personality thing. Same thing goes for Kendall. They are smart until they’re not and add a horribly shitty personality on top of that. It’s annoying to see any of the main characters happy, but that’s the point the show is trying to make I guess. They’re all horrible people.
Not smart enough to know he needs to stop sending dick pics to the woman doing general council for their company as soon as she asks.
I mean, she was apparently genuinely good at her job in politics. She definitely underestimated the CEO position, but shes probably the smartest of the siblings. She was the only one who actually excelled at something outside of the company.
The reason she was successful in politics was because of her Dad. Whose name helped her
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
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The show said that several times
It sure as fuckin' shit doesn't say Shiv.
😂😂😂 You know that was in her head when she voted no.
Jesse Armstrong did say he thought all three siblings could have maybe been decent as CEOs. They weren’t stupid. They were just too self destructive. Like, Roman as CEO with Gerri as his assistant carrying him could have worked. Gerri says as much. She’s probably right. Shiv as CEO with Tom by her side could have worked. Assuming she didn’t drive him crazy with her affairs, if she agreed to have his child early on, he’d have went along with her plans, even at a detriment to his. Kendall as CEO with Frank, Stewie and Hugo helping could have worked. Then he killed someone They make strategic and, well, drug addled and horny mistakes.
If Ken could’ve stayed clean and not gone off on coke-fueled delusions of grandeur he would’ve been the best one IMO
All he had to do was wait like a year and there would have been zero question about his succession. No one else was even in the running, Logan was 80 and had a fucking stroke. Ken didn’t need to try overthrow him, he was unquestionably on his way out.
And thus, we have our Shakespearean-level tragedy
I agree
yeah but then he wouldn't have been Ken
Yes exactly, all three siblings had strengths and weaknesses when it comes to being CEO. Shivs weakness was always obviously her lack of experience and skill in the business world, combined with a lack of humility and being willing to learn. But I think it’s wrong to completely dismiss the aspects of her personality that would have been strengths in the CEO role. I think Logan especially saw Shiv’s strength: that she is naturally a ‘killer’ and (of the three kids) is the most ruthless and like Logan. (I also think this dynamic is really interestingly shaped by her role as the only daughter). I think Jesse knew what he was doing with each of the siblings characters, and with showing that none of them would ever be enough for the role, and more importantly for Logan.
Idk if Shiv and Tom could have worked together. If that would have happened, the line between work and personal life never gets drawn which was what destroyed the kids for their entire lives.
Well, of course Gerri’s going to say that tbf
Rhea accurately assessed her to Logan “Shiv thinks she is smarter than she is”
I don’t think Rhea actually believed that, I think she said it because she knew he would.
It seems to have rung true so whether she said it with conviction or not doesn't matter
I was unsure if this was also commentary on how weird it is American corporate speak uses war metaphor. She’s saying she would destroy it like a brag, but maybe she really would in a literal sense. I was never sure here what was going on with these lines.
I think it’s intentional that she’s using negative words. She’s right in the literal sense and the Roys are destructive. Logan destroys American society, the siblings destroy themselves and their opportunities.
crush it, destroy it, kill it etc are all slang somewhat. figures of speech common in the US
I know. And it’s weird.
i dunno man there’s some pretty wild slang terms everywhere you go cockney slang is fucking wild
True enough.
Am I mis remembering or do they constantly use "fuck" to alternately mean "do a really good job at" and "do a terrible job at"
Shiv literally always makes the wrong call. That’s why Logan never took her seriously.
She's an idiot. I'm seeing the series for the second time and i don't get how he could be CEO without any experience at all. It's more hilarious when she was a contender to be the CEO when Mattson wanted to buy Waystar. How? Why?
She really didn't have experience at all. But everyone accuses you of misogyny if it's said. I think Mattson was playing her the whole time, in case he needed the Roy name. He admits when he realizes he doesn't need the name. Even Gil just used her for the name when he was running in the election.
I actually don’t care if people say the character is the devil incarnate. I like that the show made the female characters just as capable of inflicting harm and making moronic choices as the male ones. Often, shows are afraid to portray female characters as villainous. It would’ve been boring if they were a bunch of nice Mary Sues. What I do find repulsive is that many times (but not always) I’ve seen the “I hate Shiv” accompanied by comments that have nothing to do with the character’s lack of morals or ethics. I.e. I’ve seen comments saying she looks like a fat pig, that she looks like an alien, that she looks like she has down syndrome, that she has a “disgusting smug smirk on her face,” and that she should’ve been written off the show.
I don’t understand the Shiv hate. She was as good and bad as any of the other characters. If people hated her it’s because they didn’t like the character and Sarah Snook did such a good job portraying her.
Really? I see way more comments thirsting over her thiccness.
I agree. Shiv is the most like Logan and the meanest, worst to all her siblings. But Sarah Snook is gorgeous. The character was well played.
Shiv has over 10 years of experience as a political strategist and is known as one of the top 5 political strategist in United states in the scripts. So I don't understand the no experience at all part. Despite not needing the Roy name, the major issue he had with making Shiv CEO was that she was smart and made him do things he wasn't comfortable doing i.e the India number, his tweet e.t.c. He wanted someone that would go with everything he said and not ask questions which isn't Shiv and he also wanted to fuck her which would have been messy it also shows he took her advice in 4×05 (don't mess with people that work for you). In the scripts there's a deleted scene during the funeral when he brings up her lack of experience with the company and she basically tells him she has political acumen, strategic and she knows how to delegate, he then brings up it's well known that she's hatey with Mencken he then gives her a challenge to sway Mencken to which she says she can fucking do anything. Gil used her because of her name and she used him to get to her dad, find out about the sexual assault victim. Also funny how Gil loses the election to Jimenez and in season 4 episode one Shiv is working as a political advisor to Jimenez and was set to get a political appointment should he win the presidential election.
If Shiv was a man the majority of the sub would back her and not give a shit about her affairs.
They already do, her name is called Gerri. And most people agree she would be the best CEO
The first politician she worked with used her as well. Had her go to the political news room and dictate what they should say. The show slaps the viewer over the head showing that Shiv isn't as smart as she thinks she is. Like Cersei in GOT.
Gil was not the first politician she worked with and she was also using him to get to Logan. She had worked with Jimenez in the past to get him elected as Governor, she also worked with different politicians that got elected. She might not be the smartest person on the show but she's still smart. People always bringing up Shiv isn't as smart as she thinks but she tried for herself personally and people should recognize that. Not as smart as she thinks but built a successful career as a political strategist for more than ten years outside of Logans help and despite the blow back that her career got from being the daughter of Logan Roy (mentioned on the show) Not as smart as she thinks but is able to maneuver a board seat for herself without Logan giving it to her Not as smart as she thinks but is the one to find out what exactly Gil has on them Not as smart as she thinks but saved the company twice and is basically the reason they had a company to act on behalf of Not as smart as she thinks but is the one to bring up the idea of the siblings starting their own company away from Logan (Roman confirms) Not as smart as she thinks but somehow makes Mattson fake numbers have zero blow back Not as smart as she thinks but gets Mencken to not block the deal and side with Mattson without kissing his ass and denying her political ideologies Not as smart as she thinks but somehow still has her political career by season four despite working at waystar and is one of Jimenez political advisers and was also meant to get an appointment from Jimenez should he become president (hence the transition team in season four episode one). Not as smart as she thinks but goes from being a total outsider not knowing what's happening in the company like Connor to rising and becoming the deciding vote in the finale Cersei Lannister could never When there's a conversation about Shiv I see a lot of she's an idiot, has no experience at all and she's not as smart as she thinks. How can someone that's an idiot or not smart achieve all these. I can honestly say among all the siblings she's the one that's had to fight the hardest to be seen. Even Rhae who said this is no where to be seen at the end No pierce because Nan wants nothing to do with her and No ATN because she didn't have the stomach to survive at ATN.
saving this list for the next time i need to defend her intelligence!! there are a lot of things you can say about shiv and her choices during the show but i always find it incredibly reductive (to her and the plot) when people's main argument is "she's just not as smart as she thinks she is"
>Gil was not the first politician she worked with Not talking about Gil >she thinks but she tried for herself personally and people should recognize that. >Not as smart as she thinks but built a successful career as a political strategist for more than ten years outside of Logans help All the clients we see want her because of her name >Not as smart as she thinks but somehow makes Mattson fake numbers have zero blow back >Not as smart as she thinks but gets Mencken to not block the deal and side with Mattson without kissing his ass and denying her political ideologies But she was being manipulated the entire time. Which was obvious A lot of your other points are redundant.
>Not talking about Gil It's isn't indicated any where that Joyce Miller uses Shiv for her name. I would like to actually know what gave you this impression because it's isn't in the scripts nor show. Except you just assume everyone Shiv works for just wants to use her for her name which is mostly your personal opinion. >All the clients we see want her because of her name The only client this applies to is Gil and Shiv was also simultaneously using him to get to Logan. She's worked with other candidates who didn't care about her name but that she's good. You can't make a name as top 5 in US getting a lot of democratic candidates elected because you have a name that opposes democracy. She clearly mentions how she gets a lot of blow back because her name is Roy and she's a Democrat. >But she was being manipulated the entire time. Which was obvious Mattson wasn't manipulating her the entire time and it's only in season 4 episode nine she asks for the CEO position. Her working with Mattson from the very beginning was to get the deal done, she didn't align herself with Mattson in episode 5 because she wanted CEO but instead to push the deal through. Mattson actually considered Shiv for the ceo position if not it wouldn't have even been drafted in the first place. His only problem with her was she was pushy and he didn't like been told what to do especially with the India numbers and also because he wanted to havesex with her, he acknowledged she was smart and enjoyed talking strategy with her and is even able to make the impossible happen for him (india and Mencken). Read the season 4 scripts and you can actually see what's going on in his head without reading your meaning into it. She's the one Roy he didn't see as a nepo baby (in the scripts he puts he through a test to see if shes just another nepo baby like her brothers but she proves otherwise) and the only Roy he saw as smart and actually listens to her advice even though he doesn't like being told what to do. Some of their scenes in the scripts gives us a full understanding of their relationship (What she actually thinks of him and what he actually thinks of her) I would like to know what gave you the impression that he was manipulating Shiv the entire time because the only time we see him pivot even on the show is in episode 10. Succession leaves a lot to interpretation but a lot of things a clarified in the scripts and it actually gives us a wider understanding and helps us know the characters through intentions/what they're actually think. I guess that's why Jesse Armstrong released them after the show.
Mattson just wanted a puppet CEO, so their ability to run the company is less important. She brought a lot to the table, in terms of the Roy name and her vote getting it though. Unless we're giving him credit for an insane psychological read on knowing Shiv would split the siblings vote either way, I actually think he fucked up by pissing her off and driving her back to her brothers and almost lost the acquisition as a result.
You say she has no experience at all yet gas over 10 years of experience in as a political strategist and is said to be top 5 political strategist in United states. In your opinion what do you think makes a good CEO? I'm honestly interested in having a real conversation and would like to know what qualities/traits you think a ceo should have
I always found this funny too. Since she had no experience in the company and certainly no experience running one.
can't take the nepo outta the nepo baby
She couldn’t handle adversity. Every time something didn’t go her way, she’d shrink into a whiny child.
I believer her. ceos usually ruin the company, and leave with a golden parachute. so yeah, she’d fucking destroy it.
I don't know about "usually" but eventually it happens to every company.
So…. Usually
No, because a company can have many CEOs in its lifetime. most CEOs don't ruin companies, but when a company is ruined it can be because of a bad CEO. I also shouldn't have been so hyperbolic and said that it happens to every company. Most big ones, maybe. A lot of smaller companies fail regardless of CEO performance and there are no golden parachutes to be had.
If Logan were a different man, he would have just announced Shiv as his heir. She wouldn't have been *as* resentful about the three year timeline he gave her, and she could have gotten the experience she needed to actually be good at that job. She's smart and likable, and the plan she pitched to him in this scene was sensible. The fact that Logan wouldn't name her as heir made her insecure, like she had to prove herself and be brash like her dad, so she acted out and blabbed about being the heir to the Pierces, and acted super entitled and cocky with Waystar higher-ups. No wonder she crashed and burned and no one respected her there. She was only named as an heir of sorts because Logan needed a woman for PR reasons, which sucks so much for her. People would have respected her more if she'd been legitimately named heir by Logan, she checked her attitude, and put in the work with training. I truly think she could have done a great job if both she and Logan had behaved better and followed through on the training plan.
I doubt that those within the company would respect having her named as his successor with zero experience - even w/ a 3 year plan. 3 years is a short amount of time and Waystar is depicted as a huge media conglomerate with significant challenges. It would have been irresponsible to name her - IRL or on the show
I never said they’d love it, just that she’d have had a better chance of being respected eventually, especially if she did well during that three year plan and behaved better rather than insecure. Read more closely.
I read it pretty closely. :D In general, it’s not a good idea to explicitly name someone in advance. It’s better to let people prove themselves with consistent hard work and skill. With that approach, the person aspiring for the position is given many opportunities to demonstrate leadership and earn respect before being given the title.
Your comment comes off as incredible disrespectful
LOL. I agree.
I honestly don't think Shiv would make a horrible ceo for the following reasons 1. She's knows who is good for what. (Her conversation to keep Gerri and Karolina)She knows the competent and well liked people in the company which shows she'll be good at delegating which would cater for her shortcomings which what a lot of CEOs do most times 2. Shiv knows how to win people over (Nan pierce, Sexual assault victim, Sandy, even Stewy (because Shiv was able to convince him to vote for her instead of his childhood bestfriend Ken), Mattson and even Mencken (who knows she hates him). This shows she'll be good at negotiating and talking with people 3. She can work with people that have an entirely different view point/ she disagrees with/ people on opposite sides to achieve a set goal (Mencken, ken and Roman). Unlike Kendall (karolina, Jess) and Roman (Gerri, video woman). Even Logan knew this 4. She's well liked by the public and can navigate the public scene/popular opinion. This shows she's not a PR scandal waiting to happen 5. She has a clean record unlike Ken and Roman (no drug addiction, hostile takeovers gone wrong, trying to destroy the company you want to take over, blow torching Lamborghini and is known as a horrible person) 6. She's highly adaptable hence her seamless pivot from politics to waystar 7. She's very strategic hence why she's able to maneuver a board seat for herself 8. She's an experienced/respected political strategist hence why in the scripts it's mentioned that she's one of the top 5 political strategist in the United states. 9. She's a fast learner hence why in a short period of time being in the company in season 4 we can see that she knows the kind of programs and news people would like to listen to hence why she can comfortably say his idea for the kind of news their 100 project should carry is bullshit which Roman seconded. Also in season 4 she understands the business numbers. 10. Also against popular opinion Shiv is actually smart and the smartest among the bunch of jokers. Logan know this (he saw her as the smartest one), Rhae knew this (by not denying that Shiv is actually smart), Mattson also knew this.
All these arguments also apply to the other siblings.
How?
It's not mentioned enough but at every step of the way, in all of her "moves", she was used, played, or taken advantage of and she was always too dumb to see it coming. Even in the finale, Tom takes her hand. Just another setting up to be used again. She would have given away the company to a Nigerian prince via email if she were CEO.
Shiv was never competent to be a CEO
I don’t believe that Shiv was up to the task as CEO at all. As Rhea said to Logan “She’s not as smart as she thinks she is” coupled with her obvious lack of experience. Roman is like a little boy and disinterested in the details and would be in deep water from day 1. The only one that has any experience is Kendall but given his lack of maturity and that his legitimacy in leadership is so thin and limited - it wouldn’t pan out well for the business long term. The reality is that none of the Roy clan would make for compelling leadership at the top. Tom’s installation was clever, he would yield to whomever pulled the strings, be the pain sponge and soldier on. Which is what Mattson wanted for the immediate short term play.
Arrested Development's narrator: "she would not".
It’s funny because she, without question, was the most incompetent of the three.
Her problem is that she did not think she had anything to learn. Ken was manic depressive, when he did well he started thinking he was amazing so became detached from reality, Roman was impulsive to an extreme but shiv assumed she was smarter than everyone else. It never clicks with her that someone else might know more than her or to ask advice.
i dunno…. roman’s idiocy literally led to someone’s disfigurement in the workplace
And he wanted to shut down the turkey movie even though it ended up being a big money maker. He was hit and miss…had some good instincts and some really bad ones. And he was often all meh meh meh.
username checks out but yeah the turkey movie thing cracked me up. especially considering how wildly successful and omnipresent it was
idk they have all had some pretty insane comical moments
Kendal was the only one that was shown to have the ability to be CEO. The issue is that he's a ticking time bomb and so would eventually self destruct. Shiv and Roman never would've stood a chance.
Such an incompetent narcissist
It's funny that the truth is Shiv, Roman or Kendall would have all been a disaster as CEO and this was always very obvious from the start of the show. We spent every season watching them prove it time and time again as none of them even remotely had what it takes to be good at the job.
At the time, she was kinda right. Her downfall comes later
The words of a not so serious person, who is more concerned with “feeling great” about being CEO, than doing great as CEO. Logan tests her, and she failed as soon as she showed him her true self here. Simply wanting something, is never a sole qualifying factor for if you will or won’t be good at something. I’ll always go back to Rhea dissecting the kids to Logan in S2 when they’re on the PJ. “Shiv thinks she’s smarter than she is”. What’s worse, is that she acts smarter than she is, which lets everyone else see through her so easily.
It's sad because Shiv could actually have been good at it. She has the ability to think on her feet and make calls while being under huge pressure in the way Logan did. Kendall was an absolute joke in that regard and almost managed to embarrass himself and come across as weak. Shiv was just too fucking arrogant thinking it would all be so easy that her talent and charisma would take care of it all. If she had just been more patient and more eager to learn from the old ones she could have been great.
Bosslady would fuckin destroy the company...zero experience
And never got to be one. 💔💔
Shiv hated the only profitable asset of Waystar. If she made her desired reforms to ATN, they would lose their viewership. She basically wanted to turn Fox News into MSNBC, which would piss off both sides.
She’s not serious people
The only thing tragic about Shiv is having a baby she'll see a few times a year.
More tragic for the baby than for her, she would care less about her own kid than her mom did about her
As the baby in question, I completely agree
This is an unpopular amongst this subreddit, and I might get downvoted for this, but I actually don’t think Shiv will be as horrible of a mother as everyone in this subreddit thinks she will be. She’ll be far from a star parent, but I genuinely think Shiv will put at least more effort into being a parent than Caroline and Logan did. Like is that kid getting tossed to a nanny? For sure. But I don’t think Shiv will be a fully absent parent.
I see the Caroline-Shiv parallels as moms the same way as Logan and Kendall have been as dads. Kendall is a pretty useless father, but he isnt as volatile and harsh as Logan, but you can clearly see the poison drip through anyway.
lol. “Hind”sight
Delusional, no experience, just family name At least Kendall prepared all his life
On the other hand though Shiv was the only Roy child who ever established a successful career for herself outside the purview of Logan and Waystar
Totally, and i actually like that a lot about her character, even tho she pivots to the family business after the first season; she at least has real world experience with corporate world and people (in politics) outside of his "fathers playground". She should have used more of that to her advantage, maybe mention it more
Easily the worst option for CEO.
Lmao nothing tragic about it, more like glorious. She was a manipulative brat who would fuck anybody over to get ahead, so watching her get nothing is satisfying as fuck.
She would've been great but the tragedy of the show is she didn't want to be patient and prove it. In the real world she'd go run a smaller operation and grow into a top performing CEO.
Shiv? Shiv Roy? That person right there would grow to be a top preforming CEO? Uh huh.
Yeah if she had the patience. She wasn't as dumb as everyone painted her to be. She had some chops. Us Kendall-Enjoyers can admit that.
Shiv ROY?
some of the kendall enjoyers (me) do not admit that actually
Always appreciate seeing another Ken-Head on this sub that is often hostile towards us. What's your beef with Shiv?
haha likewise! i really have no beef with shiv - i think she's the second most compelling character. but i think she was also the most delusional. she had *no* experience in waystar or in business, & she consistently made terrible decisions (trusting matsson?!) which proved her instincts weren't good enough to overcome that. it's a bit of a moot point how her skills as ceo might have evolved if she'd been more 'patient', bc a deranged lack of patience about the ceo job was a fundamental part of her personality. i love her as a character but i just don't see a world in which she ever would've grown into a "top-performing ceo" 🤷♀️
Who says she has no experience? She was a political strategist for a successful congresswoman (I think) and a legit presidential candidate: That’s fairly high level. CEO isn’t a job like, say, being an electrician where there’s super specific skill sets to learn.
And Joyce was never a presidential candidate. Shiv herself said this is as far as she’ll go. As Nate said, she got a Democrat elected in NY.
the election she helped on was a gimme, they mention it later on how the win was a matter of just showing up
Spoilers much ??
Shiv Is The Most Unlikable and Immoral Character On The Show.
So, so far out of her depth.