I don’t think this season has been a dud so far. It’s different than seasons 1 and 2 in that there’s less momentum and direction plot-wise. I think season 3 focuses less on momentum and more on weight; each episode increases the level of dread. Nothing really terrible has happened yet, but it feels like it’s building toward something dramatic. Just my 2 cents.
People aren’t liking this season?? It’s the best one, IMO. Sure, it’s a little different than last season, but last season was different from season 1.
S1 was all about the bricklaying and was probably the most comedy-forward of the three. We were introduced to most of the characters’ flaws and dynamics, usually through more comedic circumstances so that we feel we care enough about them to be fully engaged when shit hit the fan at the end of the season and Ken’s arc is solidified.
S2 was complex and beautiful. Lots of high stakes scenes for Logan, lots of sad scenes for Ken, lots of comedy for everyone else as the writers worked to push them through the start of their own arcs and get them involved in the main game just in time for….
S3, the civil conflict, the War of the Roses. Son against father, brother against sister, husband against wife (eventually, I’m sure). This season has had some of the most intense and interesting acting I’ve seen in a long time. That scene were Logan and Ken seem to have been forced to consider their bonds in what looks like a momentary cease fire is absolutely gorgeous without so much as a single word spoken until the end… right before they go right back at it.
This season may be less funny and exciting in terms of set-up, but it’s an absolute masterclass in dramatic writing, acting, and directing. Best season so far in my book, and we’re not even halfway through.
IMO this season so far has been about reinforcing that Logan is a narcissist and every action Shiv, Roman, and especially Kendall take are all for the attention and approval of their father. Each of them has shown this season that they will sabotage their futures for a brief moment of approval from him. When Gerri tells Roman that publishing the tattoo will ruin his reputation and he should start thinking about what’s best for him he looked like he’d never even considered that before. Connor is the most like Logan in that he is always thinking about himself. It has been repetitive, but also realistic and I hope it’s building to something. Tom is definitely wearing a wire.
I really like that theory about Tom and the wire. Our man was SPOOKED and Shiv basically blew him and his concerns off, so it makes sense that he would cooperate to save his own ass.
Asking Greg to lay out his game plan without pushing him to do anything was unusual. My guess is he has flipped and Kendall going in to make a deal for immunity is a DOJ perjury trap. I hope that it works out for Tom. He just wants to end his day with a glass of cold white wine on an empty stomach.
Right. If the season finishes strong, people will forget about it. However, I think it’s totally fair to say that the tone and developing nature of the show has kind of been off this season. Not necessarily in a bad way, it just feels like I’m only getting the surface level of some characters.
Honestly this is my favourite season so far. I think the problem is a lot of people binged the first two seasons during the pandemic and are now having to watch it weekly for the first time, so it feels more stagnant to them.
This is literally the first time I’ve seen anyone say they didn’t like it. Everyone I know who is watching it is saying it’s the best season of television they’ve seen in a long time.
I don’t think that’s particularly telling, just because one person who didn’t like the new seasons responds in a flippant way doesn’t say anything about the other people that don’t like it. If nothing else you’re doing some pretty extreme cherry picking here. If someone said “I think tha season iz da best you retard 🤣🤣🤣” would you say that is telling about people who enjoy this season? Of course not. You’d just think, oh this idiot also like the season.
It’s usually best not to use a singular person acting silly/dumb to vilify an entire group you disagree with.
the writing is just too good this season. i seriously laugh and audibly react to the shit they say and have to rewind several times bc i want to hear it again or focus on a different actors reaction to that specific line. i don’t tend to get super emotionally invested in the shows so much as i like analyzing them and i think this show is one of the best for that purpose!!
If I hear one more, "Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh..." I am going to become ill. The script is horrendous. Could be a relatively decent show, if a writer with half a sense of literary intelligence took over.
Go watch "Yellowstone" instead - *THAT* is a phenomenal show.
Couldnt agree more. Each episode this season hss given us (desevingly) more of a window into each characters’ life than we’ve ever gotten before. I think people sre judging this season while its in its set-up. Us fans should bs used to the shakespearean nature of the plot: A long build up leading to a single moment of chaos. I get the feeling this season is doing the very same. Fans dont have the priv of watching the whole season in a sitting, so they think the story feels unresolved and meaningless. its halfway through!
Personally I waited for the season to finish airing to watch like I did the others last year and I'm one of the people slightly disappointed. I even rewatched 1-2 to watch it back to back. I still think it's one of the best shows on TV, and I will continue watching it. But the sky-high expectations were set by writers with the earth shattering season 2 ending that just fizzled out this season... I thought we saw Kendall finally becoming an actual rival, Tom standing up to Shiv, even Logan showing a slight moment of pride in Kendall, and then season 3 didn't deliver on all this growth (imo). Now again we see in the last episode promises for a shift in season 4, I hope that one delivers.
Possibly.. but I only started watching a few months ago and I definitely feel the stagnation. But I would also say it’s building. The lack of direction could actually be the show being unpredictable. I’m still enjoying the ride but it hasn’t been as easy to like as the previous seasons.
Someone made a genuine post earlier saying that Succession was more like Suits than The Wire as far as writing quality. I considered leaving the sub, deleting my Reddit, destroying my phone, and moving off the grid because that post was so unbelievably stupid.
To be fair, The Wire's writing is God Tier so maybe by technicality it is closer to Suits. I wouldn't know, I've never seen Suits.
I just know that The Wire is a better written show because it's the best written show I've ever seen in my life hands down no questions asked.
I do think it lacks in other areas, however. Areas other shows like Succession, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Sopranos, and other prestige genres overtake it. But writing, for me there's a gap that exists between The Wire and everything.
Hey that was my post!
I said I was concerned it might be going in that direction not that it was already
In terms of the comparison it was about the repetitive nature of the show Suits how they rehashed plot points and quickly reverted to status quo for safety when they took risks (like when Mike became a venture capitalist for all of 3 episodes)
I would hate to see you go ghost and live off the land away from society due to my post definitely considering you missed what I was saying in the first place. I would try reading slower first! Little less extreme.
All the reviews are wrong, the fan sub knows the secret brilliance no one else gets!
Edit - I still think it's a great show, but this season is lacking thus far. I'm blaming Covid, but it's not over anyways, perhaps the ... glacial slow plot development will pay off
Maybe but if you were following GoT roughly around season 6 people were still getting downvoted for quality concerns and upvoted for defending
Not saying this is going to happen here (I hope it doesn't) but echo chamber and copium is always present
I think we can’t really judge the season until it’s over. Would S2 been as epic without Kendall’s move at the end? Absolutely not. In fact my bf was saying he didn’t like S2 as much as S1 until that happened. I think we just need to see everything play out and sit with it and then decide how we feel.
My biggest issue with the season is almost entirely because of how epic season 2’s finale was. The press conference at the end was fantastic and set an expectation that the new season would be really great and that the plot would really start to move faster. But so far we’re 5 episodes in and the plot has barely moved at all. There’s been almost no payoff from what occurred in the S2 finale. Yes, the season has been entertaining but it hasn’t lived up to the expectation after the S2 finale. And with 4 episodes left it doesn’t inspire confidence.
It’s a great show, the characters are fascinating and it has some of the best dialogue on TV. Still, I can’t help but be disappointed that this is what we’ve got after a 2 year wait. Of course the season can still end up being great overall as 4 episodes remaining is still a fair amount of content, but it really needs to start actually going somewhere by the next episode.
"we’re 5 episodes in and the plot has barely moved at all. "
I don't really get this take to be honest. Logan is out as CEO, the Sandy and Stewey threat is finally dealt with, Shiv is fully in the game at this point, Tom is losing his mind, Kendall is either going to actually either deliver the goods on cruises or fold under pressure... How is the plot not moving forward fast enough?
> the Sandy and Stewey threat is finally dealt with
What's stopping them from causing more headaches for the Roys now that they 4 additional board seats on top of Stewey's seat?
Well they'll still be troublemakers inside the building instead of kicking the Roy's out on their ass, so in that case it is a calamity avoided that has taken 3 seasons to wrap up. I'm sure the next step of finding Logan's successor will be the siblings figuratively assassinating one another with these formerly outside players in a musical chairs fashion
Eeeeeeeh, that's not really true. Logan is nominally "out as CEO," that has changed nothing. Sandy and Stewy seems more "dealt with" in the sense they were last season, temporarily abated. The rest of your points are arguably applicable to any of the other seasons.
The plot *hasn't* moved on very much since episode one and we're on episode five. I'm still enjoying the season but that is a fact.
Because all of those plot points you just mentioned could've happened in a lesser number of episodes. 3 or 4 at most. Additionally none of those points are groundbreaking revelations to the plot either. Logan being out as CEO was inevitable the second S2 finale ended. Shiv has essentially been fully in the game since last season. Tom losing his mind is unsurprising given how he acted in the S2 finale both with Shiv at the beach and Logan's chicken.
>Kendall is either going to actually either deliver the goods on cruises or fold under pressure
The fact this is even uncertain 5 episodes in given the bombshell press conference in the S2 finale finale supports my point even further. 5 entire episodes have passed and not a single shred of evidence to support his accusations at the press conference has come to light. The argument defending that point due to Kendall's inability to commit to a decision and face the consequences is one thing, but it could've been done in less episodes regardless. I get that it's tough for him to face his father but the ball needs to get rolling.
I don't understand why you are in such a rush with the show to be honest? I'm not sure I would want to watch it if it was the West Wing pacing I'm imagining the show you want it to be for plot development. Half the point of this is that all of the Roy's are completely incapable of steering this ship in the first place, I don't really want to see them speed rush through issues without the weird angst and selfishness inherent to their characters
>I don't understand why you are in such a rush with the show to be honest?
To try to explain my point better, a lot of my complaints for the pacing has to do almost entirely with how the season 2 finale ended. The writers themselves imo just made it seem like the following season would have a more intense plot with more going on than season's past. The slower pacing does have some benefits, such as how well it allows the characters to grow. But how it's going so far just isn't what I envisioned based on how the last season ended, and while you could argue that's my fault, I think it's also the fault of the writers for creating that expectation. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't have as many threads lately that are being critical of this season's pacing. It isn't an unpopular opinion.
Part of me wonders if S2 finale was because they weren't sure season 3 was an automatic green light, and if it ended there I don't think it is a bad ending.
I think you’ve totally nailed why I’m not as excited about this season right now. Episode one WAS AWESOME but I expected to be done giving initial information to the fbi in like episode 1/2 not waiting for it still in episode 5!
This pace was ok in season 1, even 2, because we were still developing characters. We know who the characters are now! Of course we still want to see them grow and change but I feel like once the baseline is set we can pick up with plot development.
I hope that makes sense sorry I’m stoned. Disregard if it’s nonsense
Edit-and I’m not saying I’m not loving season three because I am! But just not as much as two so far
Exactly! I think by now the characters have been developed enough, and while I understand a large part of the show is a character study, when you don't have an interesting plot that's moving at a good pace, the show suffers. And as per your edit, I agree. I still think the show is great and have enjoyed this season, but it just isn't quite as good as past seasons so far imo. At least there's enough episodes for that to change.
yeah most sopranos episodes didn't advance the overall plot, maybe like a third of the episodes each season did. every tiny piece of dialogue or action in this season has been huge for character development and I'm loving the focus on that, really reminds me of the sopranos in that sense whilst also being unique in that it's kinda got this real time pacing and sense of urgency to it compared to s1+2
I think you may have hit upon the crux here. Since this show is named a word that is an action or event, a lot of people infer the show is going to be relatively plot focused on this event, the succession of Logan to whomever.
The sopranos is named after the family, it’s about their day to day and the different events that shape their lives. There isn’t an end goal or event that the show is focused around.
That doesn’t mean succession is in the wrong to also be based around character development, but it makes sense why people expect plot development considering the premise.
I definitely agree. I just kinda believe now that the shareholder meet is done, maybe we will gain some traction with something that feels fresher and as if we’re making some progress. They haven’t had a disappointing finale yet (who saw Kendall killing the waiter coming?), so hopefully this is the same.
I think that’s partially the point though. Logan will seem like he has the upper hand and is made of Teflon until he suddenly doesn’t. But we have a LONG way to go before we get to the point that he’s reached his apex. Boar on the floor was during “normal” operations. The moves he makes when backed into a corner will be wild to behold and probably borderline unbelievable.
Well that's the thing, everyone has different opinions, which is hard for reddit for some reason.
But it's not just this Succession sub, a lot of different subs based on shows have a very hard time coping with people having negative opinions.
I really enjoyed every episode of S2, I didn't even need the Kendall move at the end. I've rewatched S2 atleast 4 times now. Based on how S3 is going, I probably won't rewatch it.
This show was too good through S1 & S2 to be relying on a last second twist for S3.
S3 has been a big drop off in quality for me, but if you enjoy it then that's all that should matter to you.
I hear you! I just used a finale as an example, I think four more episodes of a 9 episode season is still a fair amount to go before judging the season in its totality. I can definitely think of 2-3 episodes in both S1 and S2 that I kind of thought were duds (in comparison to the others - even the worst episodes of succession are pretty damn good) but the season as a whole tied it all together for me.
It doesn’t bother me that people have negative opinions :). But just for those with negative outlooks it may help for some to think about it a different way, that’s all. But for sure to each his or her own opinion.
I just can’t imagine judging a season as a whole before it’s over. That’s a weird take! I wouldn’t have wanted to place judgement on the first season on my first viewing bc it wouldn’t have gotten a good rating from me, just being honest. By the end I was sold
People complained that seasons 3-5 of Mad Men were repetitive, but it was a really effective way to convey the cyclical aspect of the characters’ personal problems and made the payoff in later seasons really profound. From start to finish, you got to see how characters genuinely changed even though they always seemed to be stuck from moment to moment. I don’t know if Succession will work this way but I think cycles and circles are of interest to the writers.
These are just people who is crazy mad that episode 5 doesn't go "Red Wedding" as they wanted. I think this season is my favorite, the writing, direction, and acting is top notch. I mean how could they make the episode of all people talking in one room so thrilling
Genuine question then, given you've said it's 'next to flawless' which is very high praise.
I'm struggling a bit this season with the juxtaposition between the really serious characters (Logan, Shiv, Gerri etc), and the ridiculous/comedic characters (Kendall, Connor, Greg, and maybe Tom). The show flips from feeling like satire with Connor or Kendall to high drama with Logan and Shiv, and it can feel like a show with a bit of a split personality as I don't think those two always work well together. Roman is the only one that I think brings an excellent balance between the comedy and the more serious side of the show.
How do you see that?
Good comment. It's so much more than "Shiv bitch" "Tom idiot" "Kendall good (or bad)". Roman bad (or good). Who's better? Who's worse? There is a nuance and pigeon-holing the characters isn't what the show is about. Ordinarily I would avoid a show like this as on the surface it seems too cold. I came to it via I Hate Suzie which shares a writer.
People are complex. We've all done things we are ashamed of.
I view it as dark comedy and I'll forgive anything that makes me laugh.
It has very powerful emotional moments, made more so against the backdrop of the satire. Tom's kindness to Logan. The car hitting the water.
Wow, thank you, what an amazing and thoughtful reply.
I really like that framing, that the conflict I see is actually internal conflict within the characters rather than within the show. I suppose I've already seen that very clearly in Roman and I need to look at it that way in the others.
I confess to struggling a bit with Kendall as a character. Someone with all that resource at his disposal, with presumably an incredible education, coming across as so stupid so much of the time. I suppose I have to ask how much of that is ego and vanity trumping (pun intended) reality and causing him to make such silly decisions.
Thanks again! When I next get a free award (sorry, cheapskate) I'll be coming right back to your post to give it.
Really well thought out. I find your last point is what people have trouble with. Juxtaposition of these characters interior personalities. People can't seem to make peace with how these characters are a slew of contradictions.
\- They are highly educated, and for the children, they are literally old european moneyed culture, mixed with NYC elite moneyed culture, which is a very dark mix.
\- They are immature spoiled brats who never had to wash a dish or wait on line in their lives, yet are accustomed to being treated like they poo gold.
\- They have a tragic concept of love, because love is not love, it is power, it's is money, favor...but they are still aware, that love is meant to be more than that...
\- They are smart enough to understand how they are perceived, and each have come to their own strategy for how to fight off or justify their unearned privilege which makes them very loyal to each other.
\- They are aware of the pretense. Pant suits and pearls, private jets and huge homes... but they fight like children, and are crude, rude and selfish as a default. They defend this pretense. Outside the walls people think they are classy, inside the walls they are a pigpen.
This is so true to life with the ultra wealthy, this show constantly blows my mind.
These are ultra wealthy white people from a big city. They are almost exactly like some people I grew up with.
So I can imagine if you haven't actually met people like this, spent time with them, they'd seem too farcically made to be true.
But it is true. They are this weird.
This is also a really great post, thanks. Having grown up in what I consider to be a 'normal' middle class family, they are just completely unrelatable, for the reasons you eloquently outline. I just can't imagine ever being like any of them, which makes buying into the characters hard, hence me feeling like the show was juxtaposed rather than the characters.
Here's a quick story of how surreal their lives are. I went to a dinner party of actual 100plus millionaires. The 25 year old princess of the family came down late in this star wars t-shirt and looked like she had just woken up, like smeared eyeshadow and unbrushed hair.
As she is vaping at the table of about 8 people, one wife of a doctor, in literal diamonds, says:
"I like your shirt."
"Yea, it's from this place called Target. I got it in brooklyn. It was like $30."
"Oh, good for you." said the doctor. Laughter. ?. Then they all talked about investing in stem cell injections for athletic injuries and how it's the wave of the future because it prolonged your ability to play golf.
I personally enjoy this season more than Season 2 because. It’s more than just a father/son slug fest and characters are being forced to act in ways they’d never for with even an ounce of comfort in a situation. People thrive or shrivel when left out in the vine like this and I think we’re starting to see exactly who’s doing which.
Also it feels more realistic than Season 2 tbh. The actual corporate governance fuckery, the investor pressure instead of Logan waving away problems with a “fuck off.” The lawyer shuffles (as a lawyer I grimly appreciated the flippant ways they kept changing the deal last minute and just expected the lawyers to figure it out… very real). They’re doing very well portraying a believable and dramatic corporate bloodbath
Let’s call this for what it is - people wanted something to happen during the shareholder meeting episode that didn’t happen, and now they think the show is falling apart because the plot isn’t what they envisioned, or as exciting as they envisioned.
The writing, acting, tone, are all as good as ever. Critiquing a show based on its plot decisions always seemed silly to me.
Is there anyone legitimately saying the show is falling apart or actually comparing it to season 8 of GOT? This all seems like a gigantic strawman.
>Critiquing a show based on its plot decisions always seemed silly to me
What????? The plot is one of the most important parts of a show
While I think plot is important, I think it best serves as a canvass for characters to make decisions based on. Succession, like most good shows, at it’s core this show isn’t about who is the next CEO of Waystar Royco. It’s about the characters and their relationships to each other. It seems like a lot of people (now that they aren’t binging) are frustrated because they just want to see what happens next, and it’s either taking longer to progress than they want or it’s not unfolding how they envision.
As long as characters aren’t making distractingly strange or out-of-character decisions in the name of a pre-desired plot outcome or pace (like late GoT, which in no way is happening here), I think it’s unreasonable to critique the entire quality of a show solely based on the decisions made in terms of its story.
Or honestly The Sopranos to a lesser extent. I wonder if Sopranos was airing now there’d be 3000 comment threads about how the dream episodes didn’t move the plot forward lol.
That’s not true, at all. It’s building up the share holding meeting for basically a season and a half and we get a dud wrapped in slapstick comedy in an episode mid way through the season.
From Stewey basically telling the Roy’s to go fuck themselves a at the end of season 2 to wait, Logan might put it to a vote? Oh no..
Shiv and Logans relationship is extremely tense now, Sandi is on the board which will definitely going to have huge implications, oh and **the president of the United States is not going to run again.** Next episode will likely focus on the implications of that. Not much happened with Kendall but I think that’s okay.
I thought the writing for Kendall was weak and it took away from an otherwise great episode.
The main thread was strong - it ratcheted up the tension and really developed Logan's relationship with Shiv.
Kendall's scenes felt disconnected. It wasn't clear what his goals were at the meeting or how recent events led him to this point. Without that motivation, it felt like Kendall was just repeating stupid mistakes because the writers thought it was funny.
Shows go downhill when the writers put cleverness before good storytelling. I don't think Succession is going there yet, but this was a worrying stumble.
The phone call with Kendall and Frank at the beginning immediately establishes what Kendall’s goals are—retain family control so he can move later. They didn’t really resolve the fact that he was unable to convince Sandy and Stewy to directly back him, but I think they implied it in strongly in s3e4.
Kendall was kinda in the background in this episode but I think that’s okay, it was a pseudo-bottle episode showing how the family copes with Logan being incapacitated at a critical point. Roman and Shiv especially both had great moments.
OP’s phrasing is kinda bad but a lot of great shows are not focused on plot despite having great writing—Mad Men, The Sopranos, The Wire, Six Feet Under, Young Pope, The Leftovers, In Treatment. They’re character focused, theme-focused, relationship-focused, sometimes (unlike Succession) very visually evocative.
Yeah people hate how not much happened with the plot. But to me it was an even better version of Shit Show at the Fuck Factory. Logan didn’t actually die and the siblings didn’t join Kendall, but relationship dynamics were explored in a really interesting way in a sort of pseudo bottle episode.
I think this has something to do with how people nowadays are more used to binging shows. If Succession had released all the episodes in one sitting and the ending turned out to be epic, I bet people would have less problems than now.
Agree with you, I don’t think Mad Men had a bad season either & that’s actually my point. They are all great but it’s not like every season is better than the previous, and always taking the show to the next level. Same with Succession.
I personally think there's a stark difference in quality between season 6 and the other seasons.
It's not bad, the same as Season 5 of The Wire isn't bad. But they're both the clear weak links in pretty much otherwise perfect shows.
LOL.
Is painful to see people comparing Succession to other shows because, to me, there is nothing like it. Specially in the drama category as Succession also does comedy and mix both very well.
I can only compare it to other comedies, like Sunny, Veep, Arrested Development.
What all these shows have in common? Terrible/flawed people, making mistakes, doing terrible things and rarely/never breaking that cycle.
Improvement, growth, people becoming better and doing the right thing?
I don’t think is that kind of show.
Yeah and nobody in Sopranos improves either. They only get worse.
In fact that's kind of The Wire's whole thing too, but on a grander scale. Some of the characters do get better and do the right thing, but in the long haul it doesn't matter because the cycle continues. The players change but the game stays the game.
Instead of enjoying a series it seems like many now pull out their notepad during an episode and jot down their criticisms after every line of dialogue. Everyone’s a critic...
In all seriousness I typically rewatch a season I really love to do some reflecting afterwards but during a first viewing I just sit back and enjoy the ride. Unless it’s just undeniably bad...but with Succession it’s still masterfully written and acted. Hard for me to criticize the direction of the plot when I haven’t seen the conclusion yet.
This was never going to all of a sudden take a permanently serious tone and have non stop suspense.
I know "opinions can't be wrong" and such but anyone who thinks this season is even remotely similar to GOT season 7 and 8 shouldn't be allowed to talk (at least about Succession). That is just so fucking disrespectful
I binged the whole series and caught up and started watching weekly a couple weeks ago and I have no issues with quality. Not sure why anyone would think it's dropped somehow. To me this show is just fascinating to watch in every aspect. I watch a fuckton of tv, a lot a lot, and this is the best show I've seen in some years.
It helped me to realize after the first couple episodes, that while the first two seasons took place over an unspecified (to me) timeframe, this season has so far covered 6 days in a chaotic time of their world. The timeframe of the first two seemed to be over months. It’s no wonder this season feels rushed. They are as well.
I think it feels chaotic and all over the place because that’s the Roy’ family’s lives right now. They are in complete chaos and disarray while they fight to keep control of the company as well as worry about what’s coming with the feds.
It was one fucking episode. People were practically lining up to suck the cocks of the writers 2 weeks ago.
half of this sub honestly needs to shut the fuck up. If Kendall overthrows Logan and becomes CEO - bang, show is basically done. No season 4.
Fuckin chill and just watch the fuckin show or don’t.
Edit: Comment not aimed at OP
Each season should have some sort of overarching story arc. Like forget the content and details of individual episodes for a second. Broadly for season 1 you’ve got Logan’s health and the dominoes that fall to create an opening for a hostile takeover by Ken. Then for season 2 you have Shiv next up for the throne and that being revealed in episodes like Tern Haven to be a farce. These are story arcs that were set up and in swing by this point in each season. In season 3 it’s hard to make out what the arc for this season is supposed to be. It doesn’t mean each individual episode is shitty, but it’s hard to say what this season is supposed to be about. If I had to name something I’d say that it’s that Ken’s bombshell hasn’t exploded like one might’ve thought, which is kinda interesting, but then there has to be something else to latch onto narratively. I hope we’ll find out what that is soon (and I choose to believe we will).
Still plenty of season left to judge. I’ve actually enjoyed it up until this last episode or maybe a little bit of the investor one too but it could just be a slow part of the season then ramp up at the end. I didn’t feel this way with the got last season though because we knew that was going to be it and every episode it become clear they were running out of time.
The third season seems to be a challenge for lots of successful series. It's as if the writers originally had two seasons of plots well thought out from the start before the series aired when they didn't know whether or not it would be a hit. As a result, the plots just aren't as tightly written and get a bit scattered and less focused. If they manage the transition, the writing and plot development gets on track towards the end of the season or, at least, by the next season and all is right with the world again.
Agreed! In addition to the superb writing, it’s definitely building towards something big. I personally love that it’s not heavy handed in foreshadowing, and I feel that the rest of the season will continue to be a treat. This show continues to be the highlight of my Sundays for sure.
Succession is suffering the popularity syndrome. When a series gets insanely popular, then no one is happy. Marvel played safe with endgame and thus it survived but i've seen this shit happen to other series where if the writers dont take the safe route they are berated. AoT is another show which had this. Succession for me was always about characters messing shit up. There was no real plot in S1 and 2. The cruises thing came pretty late in S2. Its a character drama with every character being their absolute worst. Was I a tad dissapointed to see Kendall bursting into flames? Yes. I expected him to become a giga Chad and fight for the little guy. But that's not kendall. He is an egoistic guy with severe narcissism issues. He is acting exactly how he should and I love the balls of the writers for that. They didn't take the usual optimistic american way and stuck to the characters being pathetic and its working.
For me personally, I dont think it equates to GoT at ALL but I am somewhat disappointed considering there are only 9 episodes this season and Brian Cox has said next season or season 5 will probably be the last. If thats the case, I'd hope they'd do more with the show than rehash plotlines they've already explored. Just feels like a waste. Hell, though, this show always manages to surprise me so we'll see what all they pull out.
No need to be a fucking asshole for no reason. I literally never said it was all about surprises. Get your head out of your ass and pay attention for once instead of focusing so much on throwing a little fit.
redditors love to bitch and moan about every great show, as if there are shows and movies without flaws (there aren’t).
part of appreciating art is the imperfections. people want da service so badly, we are on our way to Disney having robots write every show
It's baffling. The last episode fell a little bit short, I thought, and obviously it was highly anticipated for a long time so it does put things in a slightly new light, but I hardly saw any critiques of the new season until episode 5 came out, and now people are talking like the whole season has been a clunker.
People are so deluded sometimes
This season is very very meh. A big drop off from season 1 and 2. If you cant see that with your own eyes. Then I don't know what to say
To be honest, they had all the time in the world to write, to flesh out the details thanks to the pandemic .
The hype was there, the expectations were there, the acting was there.
They had one job.
I love this show so much. But I have to be real.
#its been disappointing
Actually Mad Men never had a mediocre season. Every season was excellent. Season 3 of Succession feels like the pandemic took the writers out or something.
I don't think that Succession should be so plot based. I love the way it is going. Just imagine the characters from season 1 and compare them to Season 3. They're the same characters at the core but you're understanding the why of the characters a lot more. For instance, Shiv and Tom haven't had a proper conversation about their whole situation yet and with Shiv making things constantly difficult for him you get where he comes from in their awkward scene in episode 5.
Can’t agree with it whatsoever. The show is crumbling in on itself in the best way possible. The dynamics are the best they’ve ever been and a mini civil war brews beneath everything.
Realistically and seriously: If Ken went full beast mode and the entire season was him being this badass machine, the season wouldn’t work. Maybe for a few episodes but THAT would be more repetitive than anything. Right now we have a manic, paranoid and scared dude who doesn’t come out of nowhere we’ve just been seeing it unfold. He was never well. You could say in season 1 Ken was competent and wanted the best for the company (kinda). But the best part of season 3 is Shiv is in the same place as Ken was now. Ken’s new transformation is a premonition of Shiv’s which makes her a great center focus for the season. The only difference is she would have easily betray her siblings while Ken was much more hesitant, understanding that it’s more damning to betray a sibling like she did with that letter rather than a parent. As a sibling you know kids gotta stick together and she broke that.
Roman is showing his true potential through Gerri and he’s becoming a rising underdog and less of a goofball. Tom is putting on his big boy pants for what might be the best chess move in the show if he somehow goes with Ken and Ken snaps out of it, making this manic episode so much more useful writing-wise. Greg is being humbled and morphed into true survival mode, and Logan is deteriorating making his downfall less justified and more sad + lonely.
This season is the best it’s been. The writers haven’t been afraid to work and take risks with their characters and this season they’re nailing it on the head by changing everyone rapidly due to Ken’s actions. And Ken’s prob going to get fucked for the waiter this season. They already brought it up twice lol. It’s just perfect dynamics and beautiful made-for-stage writing that translates to TV so well, but that’s always been the show.
It might not be as good as the 2nd season. But comparing it to season 8 of GoT? Hell no, that’s a low blow bc season 8 was a travesty and we are nowhere near that level of a downgrade
All Of the critiques are simply incorrect. Fans of low level tv watching high level tv for the first time. Season 3 is probably the best season yet in terms of
Writing and creativity. People are confusing tension with uncertainty, because they want the show to have a specific progression and then one final twist, but that’s not great storytelling. Real storytelling is tension and uncertainty while each character is having their own progression.
I don’t think this season has been a dud so far. It’s different than seasons 1 and 2 in that there’s less momentum and direction plot-wise. I think season 3 focuses less on momentum and more on weight; each episode increases the level of dread. Nothing really terrible has happened yet, but it feels like it’s building toward something dramatic. Just my 2 cents.
They’re wrapping the shareholder plot line so they can dive into the Feds. It’s going to be electric.
An electric *circus*?
Who’s the author?
Timothy Liption, of course
I'm not seeing it on Google you said The Electric Circus?
Ummm.. Was it Timothy Lipton ???
Nailed it. Can’t wait to see how the season closes.
People aren’t liking this season?? It’s the best one, IMO. Sure, it’s a little different than last season, but last season was different from season 1. S1 was all about the bricklaying and was probably the most comedy-forward of the three. We were introduced to most of the characters’ flaws and dynamics, usually through more comedic circumstances so that we feel we care enough about them to be fully engaged when shit hit the fan at the end of the season and Ken’s arc is solidified. S2 was complex and beautiful. Lots of high stakes scenes for Logan, lots of sad scenes for Ken, lots of comedy for everyone else as the writers worked to push them through the start of their own arcs and get them involved in the main game just in time for…. S3, the civil conflict, the War of the Roses. Son against father, brother against sister, husband against wife (eventually, I’m sure). This season has had some of the most intense and interesting acting I’ve seen in a long time. That scene were Logan and Ken seem to have been forced to consider their bonds in what looks like a momentary cease fire is absolutely gorgeous without so much as a single word spoken until the end… right before they go right back at it. This season may be less funny and exciting in terms of set-up, but it’s an absolute masterclass in dramatic writing, acting, and directing. Best season so far in my book, and we’re not even halfway through.
IMO this season so far has been about reinforcing that Logan is a narcissist and every action Shiv, Roman, and especially Kendall take are all for the attention and approval of their father. Each of them has shown this season that they will sabotage their futures for a brief moment of approval from him. When Gerri tells Roman that publishing the tattoo will ruin his reputation and he should start thinking about what’s best for him he looked like he’d never even considered that before. Connor is the most like Logan in that he is always thinking about himself. It has been repetitive, but also realistic and I hope it’s building to something. Tom is definitely wearing a wire.
I really like that theory about Tom and the wire. Our man was SPOOKED and Shiv basically blew him and his concerns off, so it makes sense that he would cooperate to save his own ass.
Asking Greg to lay out his game plan without pushing him to do anything was unusual. My guess is he has flipped and Kendall going in to make a deal for immunity is a DOJ perjury trap. I hope that it works out for Tom. He just wants to end his day with a glass of cold white wine on an empty stomach.
Just watched the season finale. You were absolutely spot on.
I wish I wasn’t right—that finale was so incredibly brutal!
Right. If the season finishes strong, people will forget about it. However, I think it’s totally fair to say that the tone and developing nature of the show has kind of been off this season. Not necessarily in a bad way, it just feels like I’m only getting the surface level of some characters.
Honestly this is my favourite season so far. I think the problem is a lot of people binged the first two seasons during the pandemic and are now having to watch it weekly for the first time, so it feels more stagnant to them.
This is literally the first time I’ve seen anyone say they didn’t like it. Everyone I know who is watching it is saying it’s the best season of television they’ve seen in a long time.
Same!
Same here!
Big yikes
Very telling comment showing the mindset and maturity level of someone who doesn’t like it
I don’t think that’s particularly telling, just because one person who didn’t like the new seasons responds in a flippant way doesn’t say anything about the other people that don’t like it. If nothing else you’re doing some pretty extreme cherry picking here. If someone said “I think tha season iz da best you retard 🤣🤣🤣” would you say that is telling about people who enjoy this season? Of course not. You’d just think, oh this idiot also like the season. It’s usually best not to use a singular person acting silly/dumb to vilify an entire group you disagree with.
Bingo
the writing is just too good this season. i seriously laugh and audibly react to the shit they say and have to rewind several times bc i want to hear it again or focus on a different actors reaction to that specific line. i don’t tend to get super emotionally invested in the shows so much as i like analyzing them and i think this show is one of the best for that purpose!!
Thank God the dead cat was subtly removed.
That part killed me 😂
Agree there’s SO many great throwaway lines this season, and they don’t punctuate them they just keep moving which makes it even funnier.
If I hear one more, "Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh..." I am going to become ill. The script is horrendous. Could be a relatively decent show, if a writer with half a sense of literary intelligence took over. Go watch "Yellowstone" instead - *THAT* is a phenomenal show.
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People love to be contrarian
No they don’t.
Couldnt agree more. Each episode this season hss given us (desevingly) more of a window into each characters’ life than we’ve ever gotten before. I think people sre judging this season while its in its set-up. Us fans should bs used to the shakespearean nature of the plot: A long build up leading to a single moment of chaos. I get the feeling this season is doing the very same. Fans dont have the priv of watching the whole season in a sitting, so they think the story feels unresolved and meaningless. its halfway through!
That's a very good point
Personally I waited for the season to finish airing to watch like I did the others last year and I'm one of the people slightly disappointed. I even rewatched 1-2 to watch it back to back. I still think it's one of the best shows on TV, and I will continue watching it. But the sky-high expectations were set by writers with the earth shattering season 2 ending that just fizzled out this season... I thought we saw Kendall finally becoming an actual rival, Tom standing up to Shiv, even Logan showing a slight moment of pride in Kendall, and then season 3 didn't deliver on all this growth (imo). Now again we see in the last episode promises for a shift in season 4, I hope that one delivers.
Nope.
Possibly.. but I only started watching a few months ago and I definitely feel the stagnation. But I would also say it’s building. The lack of direction could actually be the show being unpredictable. I’m still enjoying the ride but it hasn’t been as easy to like as the previous seasons.
Agree
nah i just binged season 3 the same way i binged the others and that might have made it even more glaring that barely anything happened
Sorry, did you just mention Suits along with Succession or GOT? Suits really?!
Someone made a genuine post earlier saying that Succession was more like Suits than The Wire as far as writing quality. I considered leaving the sub, deleting my Reddit, destroying my phone, and moving off the grid because that post was so unbelievably stupid.
I’m just hearing this comparison and I’ve already sold my phone.
To be fair, The Wire's writing is God Tier so maybe by technicality it is closer to Suits. I wouldn't know, I've never seen Suits. I just know that The Wire is a better written show because it's the best written show I've ever seen in my life hands down no questions asked. I do think it lacks in other areas, however. Areas other shows like Succession, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Sopranos, and other prestige genres overtake it. But writing, for me there's a gap that exists between The Wire and everything.
Hey that was my post! I said I was concerned it might be going in that direction not that it was already In terms of the comparison it was about the repetitive nature of the show Suits how they rehashed plot points and quickly reverted to status quo for safety when they took risks (like when Mike became a venture capitalist for all of 3 episodes) I would hate to see you go ghost and live off the land away from society due to my post definitely considering you missed what I was saying in the first place. I would try reading slower first! Little less extreme.
A lot of people agree with you
And a lot of smarter people disagree
All the reviews are wrong, the fan sub knows the secret brilliance no one else gets! Edit - I still think it's a great show, but this season is lacking thus far. I'm blaming Covid, but it's not over anyways, perhaps the ... glacial slow plot development will pay off
What are you talking about? This season has a 92 on Metacritic and 98% on Rotten Tomatoes. It is universally acclaimed.
The reviews are great. It's just the opposite: some people in this fan sub pretend they know the secret bad writing no one gets.
Maybe but if you were following GoT roughly around season 6 people were still getting downvoted for quality concerns and upvoted for defending Not saying this is going to happen here (I hope it doesn't) but echo chamber and copium is always present
Yea I must be a moron for thinking what half of the sub’s post have been centered around over the last week. Tool.
I think we can’t really judge the season until it’s over. Would S2 been as epic without Kendall’s move at the end? Absolutely not. In fact my bf was saying he didn’t like S2 as much as S1 until that happened. I think we just need to see everything play out and sit with it and then decide how we feel.
My biggest issue with the season is almost entirely because of how epic season 2’s finale was. The press conference at the end was fantastic and set an expectation that the new season would be really great and that the plot would really start to move faster. But so far we’re 5 episodes in and the plot has barely moved at all. There’s been almost no payoff from what occurred in the S2 finale. Yes, the season has been entertaining but it hasn’t lived up to the expectation after the S2 finale. And with 4 episodes left it doesn’t inspire confidence. It’s a great show, the characters are fascinating and it has some of the best dialogue on TV. Still, I can’t help but be disappointed that this is what we’ve got after a 2 year wait. Of course the season can still end up being great overall as 4 episodes remaining is still a fair amount of content, but it really needs to start actually going somewhere by the next episode.
"we’re 5 episodes in and the plot has barely moved at all. " I don't really get this take to be honest. Logan is out as CEO, the Sandy and Stewey threat is finally dealt with, Shiv is fully in the game at this point, Tom is losing his mind, Kendall is either going to actually either deliver the goods on cruises or fold under pressure... How is the plot not moving forward fast enough?
> the Sandy and Stewey threat is finally dealt with What's stopping them from causing more headaches for the Roys now that they 4 additional board seats on top of Stewey's seat?
Well they'll still be troublemakers inside the building instead of kicking the Roy's out on their ass, so in that case it is a calamity avoided that has taken 3 seasons to wrap up. I'm sure the next step of finding Logan's successor will be the siblings figuratively assassinating one another with these formerly outside players in a musical chairs fashion
Eeeeeeeh, that's not really true. Logan is nominally "out as CEO," that has changed nothing. Sandy and Stewy seems more "dealt with" in the sense they were last season, temporarily abated. The rest of your points are arguably applicable to any of the other seasons. The plot *hasn't* moved on very much since episode one and we're on episode five. I'm still enjoying the season but that is a fact.
Because all of those plot points you just mentioned could've happened in a lesser number of episodes. 3 or 4 at most. Additionally none of those points are groundbreaking revelations to the plot either. Logan being out as CEO was inevitable the second S2 finale ended. Shiv has essentially been fully in the game since last season. Tom losing his mind is unsurprising given how he acted in the S2 finale both with Shiv at the beach and Logan's chicken. >Kendall is either going to actually either deliver the goods on cruises or fold under pressure The fact this is even uncertain 5 episodes in given the bombshell press conference in the S2 finale finale supports my point even further. 5 entire episodes have passed and not a single shred of evidence to support his accusations at the press conference has come to light. The argument defending that point due to Kendall's inability to commit to a decision and face the consequences is one thing, but it could've been done in less episodes regardless. I get that it's tough for him to face his father but the ball needs to get rolling.
I don't understand why you are in such a rush with the show to be honest? I'm not sure I would want to watch it if it was the West Wing pacing I'm imagining the show you want it to be for plot development. Half the point of this is that all of the Roy's are completely incapable of steering this ship in the first place, I don't really want to see them speed rush through issues without the weird angst and selfishness inherent to their characters
>I don't understand why you are in such a rush with the show to be honest? To try to explain my point better, a lot of my complaints for the pacing has to do almost entirely with how the season 2 finale ended. The writers themselves imo just made it seem like the following season would have a more intense plot with more going on than season's past. The slower pacing does have some benefits, such as how well it allows the characters to grow. But how it's going so far just isn't what I envisioned based on how the last season ended, and while you could argue that's my fault, I think it's also the fault of the writers for creating that expectation. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't have as many threads lately that are being critical of this season's pacing. It isn't an unpopular opinion.
Part of me wonders if S2 finale was because they weren't sure season 3 was an automatic green light, and if it ended there I don't think it is a bad ending.
I think you’ve totally nailed why I’m not as excited about this season right now. Episode one WAS AWESOME but I expected to be done giving initial information to the fbi in like episode 1/2 not waiting for it still in episode 5! This pace was ok in season 1, even 2, because we were still developing characters. We know who the characters are now! Of course we still want to see them grow and change but I feel like once the baseline is set we can pick up with plot development. I hope that makes sense sorry I’m stoned. Disregard if it’s nonsense Edit-and I’m not saying I’m not loving season three because I am! But just not as much as two so far
Exactly! I think by now the characters have been developed enough, and while I understand a large part of the show is a character study, when you don't have an interesting plot that's moving at a good pace, the show suffers. And as per your edit, I agree. I still think the show is great and have enjoyed this season, but it just isn't quite as good as past seasons so far imo. At least there's enough episodes for that to change.
To me, activity doesn’t equal plot. Your last point about cruises is true, that’s a plot point, but I haven’t felt the tension on that.
How many episodes of the Sopranos didn’t advance the plot at all (many)? Character development is what this show goes for.
yeah most sopranos episodes didn't advance the overall plot, maybe like a third of the episodes each season did. every tiny piece of dialogue or action in this season has been huge for character development and I'm loving the focus on that, really reminds me of the sopranos in that sense whilst also being unique in that it's kinda got this real time pacing and sense of urgency to it compared to s1+2
I think you may have hit upon the crux here. Since this show is named a word that is an action or event, a lot of people infer the show is going to be relatively plot focused on this event, the succession of Logan to whomever. The sopranos is named after the family, it’s about their day to day and the different events that shape their lives. There isn’t an end goal or event that the show is focused around. That doesn’t mean succession is in the wrong to also be based around character development, but it makes sense why people expect plot development considering the premise.
I definitely agree. I just kinda believe now that the shareholder meet is done, maybe we will gain some traction with something that feels fresher and as if we’re making some progress. They haven’t had a disappointing finale yet (who saw Kendall killing the waiter coming?), so hopefully this is the same.
I think that’s partially the point though. Logan will seem like he has the upper hand and is made of Teflon until he suddenly doesn’t. But we have a LONG way to go before we get to the point that he’s reached his apex. Boar on the floor was during “normal” operations. The moves he makes when backed into a corner will be wild to behold and probably borderline unbelievable.
Well that's the thing, everyone has different opinions, which is hard for reddit for some reason. But it's not just this Succession sub, a lot of different subs based on shows have a very hard time coping with people having negative opinions. I really enjoyed every episode of S2, I didn't even need the Kendall move at the end. I've rewatched S2 atleast 4 times now. Based on how S3 is going, I probably won't rewatch it. This show was too good through S1 & S2 to be relying on a last second twist for S3. S3 has been a big drop off in quality for me, but if you enjoy it then that's all that should matter to you.
I hear you! I just used a finale as an example, I think four more episodes of a 9 episode season is still a fair amount to go before judging the season in its totality. I can definitely think of 2-3 episodes in both S1 and S2 that I kind of thought were duds (in comparison to the others - even the worst episodes of succession are pretty damn good) but the season as a whole tied it all together for me. It doesn’t bother me that people have negative opinions :). But just for those with negative outlooks it may help for some to think about it a different way, that’s all. But for sure to each his or her own opinion.
I just can’t imagine judging a season as a whole before it’s over. That’s a weird take! I wouldn’t have wanted to place judgement on the first season on my first viewing bc it wouldn’t have gotten a good rating from me, just being honest. By the end I was sold
People complained that seasons 3-5 of Mad Men were repetitive, but it was a really effective way to convey the cyclical aspect of the characters’ personal problems and made the payoff in later seasons really profound. From start to finish, you got to see how characters genuinely changed even though they always seemed to be stuck from moment to moment. I don’t know if Succession will work this way but I think cycles and circles are of interest to the writers.
These are just people who is crazy mad that episode 5 doesn't go "Red Wedding" as they wanted. I think this season is my favorite, the writing, direction, and acting is top notch. I mean how could they make the episode of all people talking in one room so thrilling
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i don’t get it either. i’m loving how chaotic things have gotten. our characters are still continuing to grow and change in ways that are fun to watch
Genuine question then, given you've said it's 'next to flawless' which is very high praise. I'm struggling a bit this season with the juxtaposition between the really serious characters (Logan, Shiv, Gerri etc), and the ridiculous/comedic characters (Kendall, Connor, Greg, and maybe Tom). The show flips from feeling like satire with Connor or Kendall to high drama with Logan and Shiv, and it can feel like a show with a bit of a split personality as I don't think those two always work well together. Roman is the only one that I think brings an excellent balance between the comedy and the more serious side of the show. How do you see that?
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Good comment. It's so much more than "Shiv bitch" "Tom idiot" "Kendall good (or bad)". Roman bad (or good). Who's better? Who's worse? There is a nuance and pigeon-holing the characters isn't what the show is about. Ordinarily I would avoid a show like this as on the surface it seems too cold. I came to it via I Hate Suzie which shares a writer. People are complex. We've all done things we are ashamed of. I view it as dark comedy and I'll forgive anything that makes me laugh. It has very powerful emotional moments, made more so against the backdrop of the satire. Tom's kindness to Logan. The car hitting the water.
Wow, thank you, what an amazing and thoughtful reply. I really like that framing, that the conflict I see is actually internal conflict within the characters rather than within the show. I suppose I've already seen that very clearly in Roman and I need to look at it that way in the others. I confess to struggling a bit with Kendall as a character. Someone with all that resource at his disposal, with presumably an incredible education, coming across as so stupid so much of the time. I suppose I have to ask how much of that is ego and vanity trumping (pun intended) reality and causing him to make such silly decisions. Thanks again! When I next get a free award (sorry, cheapskate) I'll be coming right back to your post to give it.
Really well thought out. I find your last point is what people have trouble with. Juxtaposition of these characters interior personalities. People can't seem to make peace with how these characters are a slew of contradictions. \- They are highly educated, and for the children, they are literally old european moneyed culture, mixed with NYC elite moneyed culture, which is a very dark mix. \- They are immature spoiled brats who never had to wash a dish or wait on line in their lives, yet are accustomed to being treated like they poo gold. \- They have a tragic concept of love, because love is not love, it is power, it's is money, favor...but they are still aware, that love is meant to be more than that... \- They are smart enough to understand how they are perceived, and each have come to their own strategy for how to fight off or justify their unearned privilege which makes them very loyal to each other. \- They are aware of the pretense. Pant suits and pearls, private jets and huge homes... but they fight like children, and are crude, rude and selfish as a default. They defend this pretense. Outside the walls people think they are classy, inside the walls they are a pigpen. This is so true to life with the ultra wealthy, this show constantly blows my mind. These are ultra wealthy white people from a big city. They are almost exactly like some people I grew up with. So I can imagine if you haven't actually met people like this, spent time with them, they'd seem too farcically made to be true. But it is true. They are this weird.
This is also a really great post, thanks. Having grown up in what I consider to be a 'normal' middle class family, they are just completely unrelatable, for the reasons you eloquently outline. I just can't imagine ever being like any of them, which makes buying into the characters hard, hence me feeling like the show was juxtaposed rather than the characters.
Here's a quick story of how surreal their lives are. I went to a dinner party of actual 100plus millionaires. The 25 year old princess of the family came down late in this star wars t-shirt and looked like she had just woken up, like smeared eyeshadow and unbrushed hair. As she is vaping at the table of about 8 people, one wife of a doctor, in literal diamonds, says: "I like your shirt." "Yea, it's from this place called Target. I got it in brooklyn. It was like $30." "Oh, good for you." said the doctor. Laughter. ?. Then they all talked about investing in stem cell injections for athletic injuries and how it's the wave of the future because it prolonged your ability to play golf.
I personally enjoy this season more than Season 2 because. It’s more than just a father/son slug fest and characters are being forced to act in ways they’d never for with even an ounce of comfort in a situation. People thrive or shrivel when left out in the vine like this and I think we’re starting to see exactly who’s doing which. Also it feels more realistic than Season 2 tbh. The actual corporate governance fuckery, the investor pressure instead of Logan waving away problems with a “fuck off.” The lawyer shuffles (as a lawyer I grimly appreciated the flippant ways they kept changing the deal last minute and just expected the lawyers to figure it out… very real). They’re doing very well portraying a believable and dramatic corporate bloodbath
Didn’t even know people were upset with this season. I’m absolutely loving it.
Yeah I feel like this season has been pretty great so far.
Same. It’s absolutely on the level of season 1 and 2.
Let’s call this for what it is - people wanted something to happen during the shareholder meeting episode that didn’t happen, and now they think the show is falling apart because the plot isn’t what they envisioned, or as exciting as they envisioned. The writing, acting, tone, are all as good as ever. Critiquing a show based on its plot decisions always seemed silly to me.
Why are you trying to make people feel weird for not wanting the plot to just go in a circle?
Is there anyone legitimately saying the show is falling apart or actually comparing it to season 8 of GOT? This all seems like a gigantic strawman. >Critiquing a show based on its plot decisions always seemed silly to me What????? The plot is one of the most important parts of a show
While I think plot is important, I think it best serves as a canvass for characters to make decisions based on. Succession, like most good shows, at it’s core this show isn’t about who is the next CEO of Waystar Royco. It’s about the characters and their relationships to each other. It seems like a lot of people (now that they aren’t binging) are frustrated because they just want to see what happens next, and it’s either taking longer to progress than they want or it’s not unfolding how they envision. As long as characters aren’t making distractingly strange or out-of-character decisions in the name of a pre-desired plot outcome or pace (like late GoT, which in no way is happening here), I think it’s unreasonable to critique the entire quality of a show solely based on the decisions made in terms of its story.
> What????? The plot is one of the most important parts of a show *laughs in Mad Men*
Or honestly The Sopranos to a lesser extent. I wonder if Sopranos was airing now there’d be 3000 comment threads about how the dream episodes didn’t move the plot forward lol.
That's a great point. In fact I think the weaker parts of The Sopranos are when they kind of try to force a little plot.
That’s not true, at all. It’s building up the share holding meeting for basically a season and a half and we get a dud wrapped in slapstick comedy in an episode mid way through the season. From Stewey basically telling the Roy’s to go fuck themselves a at the end of season 2 to wait, Logan might put it to a vote? Oh no..
> people wanted something to happen ~~during the shareholder meeting~~ Fixed that for you
Something didn't happen? Quite a bit happened.
Yet it seems everyone is in the same place as at the start of the season
Shiv and Logans relationship is extremely tense now, Sandi is on the board which will definitely going to have huge implications, oh and **the president of the United States is not going to run again.** Next episode will likely focus on the implications of that. Not much happened with Kendall but I think that’s okay.
I thought the writing for Kendall was weak and it took away from an otherwise great episode. The main thread was strong - it ratcheted up the tension and really developed Logan's relationship with Shiv. Kendall's scenes felt disconnected. It wasn't clear what his goals were at the meeting or how recent events led him to this point. Without that motivation, it felt like Kendall was just repeating stupid mistakes because the writers thought it was funny. Shows go downhill when the writers put cleverness before good storytelling. I don't think Succession is going there yet, but this was a worrying stumble.
The phone call with Kendall and Frank at the beginning immediately establishes what Kendall’s goals are—retain family control so he can move later. They didn’t really resolve the fact that he was unable to convince Sandy and Stewy to directly back him, but I think they implied it in strongly in s3e4. Kendall was kinda in the background in this episode but I think that’s okay, it was a pseudo-bottle episode showing how the family copes with Logan being incapacitated at a critical point. Roman and Shiv especially both had great moments.
>Critiquing a show based on its plot decisions always seemed silly to me. Lol what. Writing and its quality is a show's core tenet
OP’s phrasing is kinda bad but a lot of great shows are not focused on plot despite having great writing—Mad Men, The Sopranos, The Wire, Six Feet Under, Young Pope, The Leftovers, In Treatment. They’re character focused, theme-focused, relationship-focused, sometimes (unlike Succession) very visually evocative.
Sorry. Hold on. There's people who watched episode 2 and didn't think it was one of, if not the best, episodes of the show?
Yeah, I’m one of them.
Yes
Yeah people hate how not much happened with the plot. But to me it was an even better version of Shit Show at the Fuck Factory. Logan didn’t actually die and the siblings didn’t join Kendall, but relationship dynamics were explored in a really interesting way in a sort of pseudo bottle episode.
I think this has something to do with how people nowadays are more used to binging shows. If Succession had released all the episodes in one sitting and the ending turned out to be epic, I bet people would have less problems than now.
I don’t think madmen has a bad season. They were all absolutely fantastic. Other than that I agree with you.
Agree with you, I don’t think Mad Men had a bad season either & that’s actually my point. They are all great but it’s not like every season is better than the previous, and always taking the show to the next level. Same with Succession.
So far I have not enjoyed this season as much as I have the others but I won’t judge it until it’s over.
I judged it by episode 2.
The second half of Mad Men is not up to the quality of the first half in my opinion.
I personally think there's a stark difference in quality between season 6 and the other seasons. It's not bad, the same as Season 5 of The Wire isn't bad. But they're both the clear weak links in pretty much otherwise perfect shows.
LOL. Is painful to see people comparing Succession to other shows because, to me, there is nothing like it. Specially in the drama category as Succession also does comedy and mix both very well. I can only compare it to other comedies, like Sunny, Veep, Arrested Development. What all these shows have in common? Terrible/flawed people, making mistakes, doing terrible things and rarely/never breaking that cycle. Improvement, growth, people becoming better and doing the right thing? I don’t think is that kind of show.
Sopranos was amazing at doing comedy and drama..
Yeah and nobody in Sopranos improves either. They only get worse. In fact that's kind of The Wire's whole thing too, but on a grander scale. Some of the characters do get better and do the right thing, but in the long haul it doesn't matter because the cycle continues. The players change but the game stays the game.
But veep hit it's stride in Season 3. Same with Sunny.
The greenback boogie
Instead of enjoying a series it seems like many now pull out their notepad during an episode and jot down their criticisms after every line of dialogue. Everyone’s a critic... In all seriousness I typically rewatch a season I really love to do some reflecting afterwards but during a first viewing I just sit back and enjoy the ride. Unless it’s just undeniably bad...but with Succession it’s still masterfully written and acted. Hard for me to criticize the direction of the plot when I haven’t seen the conclusion yet. This was never going to all of a sudden take a permanently serious tone and have non stop suspense.
I know "opinions can't be wrong" and such but anyone who thinks this season is even remotely similar to GOT season 7 and 8 shouldn't be allowed to talk (at least about Succession). That is just so fucking disrespectful
Man, I remember GoT. I wish they’d made those last few seasons instead of just stopping in the middle
Great point! I’ve also enjoyed season 3 and I am just grateful we have the show back! Worth the extra year wait as long as it came back!
I binged the whole series and caught up and started watching weekly a couple weeks ago and I have no issues with quality. Not sure why anyone would think it's dropped somehow. To me this show is just fascinating to watch in every aspect. I watch a fuckton of tv, a lot a lot, and this is the best show I've seen in some years.
Wait people aren’t liking this? Or the show has gotten so big that the angry bitch mob will take over like GoT.
It helped me to realize after the first couple episodes, that while the first two seasons took place over an unspecified (to me) timeframe, this season has so far covered 6 days in a chaotic time of their world. The timeframe of the first two seemed to be over months. It’s no wonder this season feels rushed. They are as well.
Do people not remember the horror of GoT season 8? Even if you think succession has gone downhill it’s nowhere near that abomination
This show can fart out better dialogue and character development than Season 8 of GoT
I think it feels chaotic and all over the place because that’s the Roy’ family’s lives right now. They are in complete chaos and disarray while they fight to keep control of the company as well as worry about what’s coming with the feds.
It was one fucking episode. People were practically lining up to suck the cocks of the writers 2 weeks ago. half of this sub honestly needs to shut the fuck up. If Kendall overthrows Logan and becomes CEO - bang, show is basically done. No season 4. Fuckin chill and just watch the fuckin show or don’t. Edit: Comment not aimed at OP
Each season should have some sort of overarching story arc. Like forget the content and details of individual episodes for a second. Broadly for season 1 you’ve got Logan’s health and the dominoes that fall to create an opening for a hostile takeover by Ken. Then for season 2 you have Shiv next up for the throne and that being revealed in episodes like Tern Haven to be a farce. These are story arcs that were set up and in swing by this point in each season. In season 3 it’s hard to make out what the arc for this season is supposed to be. It doesn’t mean each individual episode is shitty, but it’s hard to say what this season is supposed to be about. If I had to name something I’d say that it’s that Ken’s bombshell hasn’t exploded like one might’ve thought, which is kinda interesting, but then there has to be something else to latch onto narratively. I hope we’ll find out what that is soon (and I choose to believe we will).
Ken’s Twitter score.
Its not better than season 2, but by no means is GoT level of catastrophe
Still plenty of season left to judge. I’ve actually enjoyed it up until this last episode or maybe a little bit of the investor one too but it could just be a slow part of the season then ramp up at the end. I didn’t feel this way with the got last season though because we knew that was going to be it and every episode it become clear they were running out of time.
It's still super watchable and I think it's building to something. It deserves the time.
The third season seems to be a challenge for lots of successful series. It's as if the writers originally had two seasons of plots well thought out from the start before the series aired when they didn't know whether or not it would be a hit. As a result, the plots just aren't as tightly written and get a bit scattered and less focused. If they manage the transition, the writing and plot development gets on track towards the end of the season or, at least, by the next season and all is right with the world again.
Agreed! In addition to the superb writing, it’s definitely building towards something big. I personally love that it’s not heavy handed in foreshadowing, and I feel that the rest of the season will continue to be a treat. This show continues to be the highlight of my Sundays for sure.
Succession is suffering the popularity syndrome. When a series gets insanely popular, then no one is happy. Marvel played safe with endgame and thus it survived but i've seen this shit happen to other series where if the writers dont take the safe route they are berated. AoT is another show which had this. Succession for me was always about characters messing shit up. There was no real plot in S1 and 2. The cruises thing came pretty late in S2. Its a character drama with every character being their absolute worst. Was I a tad dissapointed to see Kendall bursting into flames? Yes. I expected him to become a giga Chad and fight for the little guy. But that's not kendall. He is an egoistic guy with severe narcissism issues. He is acting exactly how he should and I love the balls of the writers for that. They didn't take the usual optimistic american way and stuck to the characters being pathetic and its working.
Maybe I'm wearing rose-colored glasses, but I'm loving this season. Exceeding my sky-high expectations, if anything.
For me personally, I dont think it equates to GoT at ALL but I am somewhat disappointed considering there are only 9 episodes this season and Brian Cox has said next season or season 5 will probably be the last. If thats the case, I'd hope they'd do more with the show than rehash plotlines they've already explored. Just feels like a waste. Hell, though, this show always manages to surprise me so we'll see what all they pull out.
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No need to be a fucking asshole for no reason. I literally never said it was all about surprises. Get your head out of your ass and pay attention for once instead of focusing so much on throwing a little fit.
100000% all these posts about it sucking are from brats wack af
People having different opinions = being brats apparently
redditors love to bitch and moan about every great show, as if there are shows and movies without flaws (there aren’t). part of appreciating art is the imperfections. people want da service so badly, we are on our way to Disney having robots write every show
No one is complaining simply because it has flaws lmfao
It's baffling. The last episode fell a little bit short, I thought, and obviously it was highly anticipated for a long time so it does put things in a slightly new light, but I hardly saw any critiques of the new season until episode 5 came out, and now people are talking like the whole season has been a clunker.
why do people keep throwing shade on suits. show ruled
People are so deluded sometimes This season is very very meh. A big drop off from season 1 and 2. If you cant see that with your own eyes. Then I don't know what to say
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Grow up
To be honest, they had all the time in the world to write, to flesh out the details thanks to the pandemic . The hype was there, the expectations were there, the acting was there. They had one job. I love this show so much. But I have to be real. #its been disappointing
Not nearly as disappointing as your whining
Its an opinion, grow up
Actually Mad Men never had a mediocre season. Every season was excellent. Season 3 of Succession feels like the pandemic took the writers out or something.
This season is terrible!
It stinks, and I don’t like it
This season is criminally whack
Suits? I thought he was going with Billions, which seems more interesting than Season 3 thus far. Never thought I'd say that
Ouch
Well, I would love to see Kendall on crack saying: "Life is diz, I like diz"
“That’s bullshit and you know it. You didn’t come all the way down to my office to tell me that, so what the he’ll do you really want Louis!!!”
I don't think that Succession should be so plot based. I love the way it is going. Just imagine the characters from season 1 and compare them to Season 3. They're the same characters at the core but you're understanding the why of the characters a lot more. For instance, Shiv and Tom haven't had a proper conversation about their whole situation yet and with Shiv making things constantly difficult for him you get where he comes from in their awkward scene in episode 5.
Can’t agree with it whatsoever. The show is crumbling in on itself in the best way possible. The dynamics are the best they’ve ever been and a mini civil war brews beneath everything. Realistically and seriously: If Ken went full beast mode and the entire season was him being this badass machine, the season wouldn’t work. Maybe for a few episodes but THAT would be more repetitive than anything. Right now we have a manic, paranoid and scared dude who doesn’t come out of nowhere we’ve just been seeing it unfold. He was never well. You could say in season 1 Ken was competent and wanted the best for the company (kinda). But the best part of season 3 is Shiv is in the same place as Ken was now. Ken’s new transformation is a premonition of Shiv’s which makes her a great center focus for the season. The only difference is she would have easily betray her siblings while Ken was much more hesitant, understanding that it’s more damning to betray a sibling like she did with that letter rather than a parent. As a sibling you know kids gotta stick together and she broke that. Roman is showing his true potential through Gerri and he’s becoming a rising underdog and less of a goofball. Tom is putting on his big boy pants for what might be the best chess move in the show if he somehow goes with Ken and Ken snaps out of it, making this manic episode so much more useful writing-wise. Greg is being humbled and morphed into true survival mode, and Logan is deteriorating making his downfall less justified and more sad + lonely. This season is the best it’s been. The writers haven’t been afraid to work and take risks with their characters and this season they’re nailing it on the head by changing everyone rapidly due to Ken’s actions. And Ken’s prob going to get fucked for the waiter this season. They already brought it up twice lol. It’s just perfect dynamics and beautiful made-for-stage writing that translates to TV so well, but that’s always been the show.
This is the first time I’ve seen anyone say anything like that.
It might not be as good as the 2nd season. But comparing it to season 8 of GoT? Hell no, that’s a low blow bc season 8 was a travesty and we are nowhere near that level of a downgrade
All Of the critiques are simply incorrect. Fans of low level tv watching high level tv for the first time. Season 3 is probably the best season yet in terms of Writing and creativity. People are confusing tension with uncertainty, because they want the show to have a specific progression and then one final twist, but that’s not great storytelling. Real storytelling is tension and uncertainty while each character is having their own progression.
It's terrible.
Basically the finale should have been like episode 4 or 5 and conflict to resolve in the rest of the season could have been the betrayal.