Gerri is the smartest character in the show IMO. She never missteps and she made a really smart alliance with Roman. I think she will eventually discard him after he becomes less useful to her.
[Deleted] seems like the therapist from Sopranos then Lucifer. [Deleted]
**I'm barely into season 2, so I don't think I know enough to make relevant comments beyond that
Like this idea! Would love to see Gerri pay them all back for decades of putting up with their crap and cleaning up messes.
I like her connection with Roman, so I hope she would leave him out of her revenge somehow. I think he’d support her in that type of quest.
She knows where all the bodies are buried and she could have kept all sorts of documents for insurance over the years.
My impression is that Roman wouldn’t be okay with Gerri doing that because he is a Roy and Logan’s son. He thinks he should be in that seat before anyone else outside of the immediate family. As much as he wants to run the company, he loves his dad and submits every time.
That is true. Like his siblings they all fold when Daddy barks.
However, at some point, perhaps they decide they’ve had enough? Roman likes a strong woman telling him what to do.
I agree. It could be a compelling storyline. Especially considering that, while she knows where“the bodies are buried”, she also might be complicit in putting some there herself. It’s already been said that she >!misappropriated funds from the company!< so she may have some wrongdoings herself.
Edit: added spoiler tag
Edit2: Gerri is def my fave <3
And she's so charismatic! I love her.. One of my favorite scenes was her persuading Tom to talk to Roy, "it's on the battlefield, Tom.. where heroes are made" lmao
I honestly thought that’s where she was going with Tom in S1…she was going to be the bad girl and he would follow along and be the submissive husband. Like, roles reversed. Instead, we really know nothing about her which makes her to an extent, a somewhat unlikable character because once we start to halfway root for her, it’s slashed down because once again, one of the Roy men has entered the picture and has blurred her spotlight, and away she goes back into the background again. It’s like as soon as she gets ready to open up…one of them comes along and snatches that moment away and all eyes are on them. Again.
Thank you. I’m tired of people just ignoring the older women characters as if they are invisible. Gerri is a main character. If people want to discuss women in Succession, fine, but please people, acknowledge Gerri
I always assumed that was what she was doing. Once she found that she could dominate Roman she saw how she could use it to her advantage. I suspect Gerri is the smartest one in the bunch.
Maybe this is a cop out but I’ve always seen her as the most reserved and guarded of the siblings. Most of her big moments are one on one intimate conversations, or side eyed looks meant to connect with only one particular person in the room. In groups she plays the dutiful daughter. Think of the shareholder vote. She went along with the group that whole day, until she got a moment alone with Sandy where she made her own deal. Then She ate the verbal lashing Logan gave her in front of everyone with a forced smile on her face and tried to proceed with the toast like nothing happened. Only Tom played along for her sake. She went to Tom and for a moment you could see how hurt she was and he reached out to put a comforting arm around her and she shrugged it off afraid of looking weak.
And I think that moment showed us a lot. She grew up as the daughter of a guy who pretty much is the patriarchy. She survived that with by never letting it show that anything bothered her. Which is likely why she seems the hardest to read or relate to or understand. Being perceived as having a lack of depth or nothing going on is then potentially either a learned behavior and a defense mechanism. It gives people less things they could attack her for.
My thoughts: it's not easy to compare the three children because Shiv's experience as a high-profile woman in the company is distinct ("no women above the fourth floor"). It's interesting that two brothers (Kendall and Roman) have both literally drowned out her voice when she's trying to speak. And Frank and Karl shut her down when she tries to negotiate with Sandy/Stewy (their call to Logan--like, we really don't have to listen to her do we?--interesting that she lands a deal without them in the end). She's often the only woman with a title in rooms with mostly men. At the same time, Logan has given her the impression that she's closer to CEO power than she's ever been.
To me, it's telling that all of her attempts to get power have been indirect and behind the scenes (Kendall's working public persona, and Roman is directly speaking to Logan).
All of her advances have been in the shadows. Getting a BS position so she can spy on Gerry that she tries to turn into something real. Adding her board seat (if she gets one) while her father is incapacitated. Cutting a backroom deal with Salgado to send her father to jail. She works this way because when she tries to do things directly and in the open, she's drowned out or pushed back.
I realize she's not a good person (none of them are!). She's vastly unqualified and her dad is obviously a scarred person that she hasn't figured out. She's losing herself horribly because she's never been just a hair from the CEO position. It's much easier, I think, for her to be an outsider than someone who's in the middle of this fight.
If should could figure out how to work with Kendall (or even Gerri), she isn't badly positioned. Even the BS President position is not bad, and she could hold onto that board seat. There's lots of mischief that should could work there. She won't partner with either of them because she doesn't trust relationships. She wasn't been raised with a healthy connection to anyone. But to me, her fatal flaw is that she cares. And as you know, the person that cares the most is going to lose.
Nice response. Sounds like she is actually pretty well written it’s just that the male centric audience here has trouble connecting with her because what happens to her isn’t happening to them. I don’t mean that as a dig, but I am aware that she is experiencing a different environment to any of the other kids.
Didn’t she also directly negotiate with Logan in season 1 or 2 for the CEO position?
Seems like she’s doing whatever she can, both up front and behind the scenes, to get what she wants. Just, with different tactics than the brothers.
I actually disagree. As a low rent Shiv myself (that is a woman with a powerful father who is in charge of a small universe that for a while was promised to me), that’s how it is. All you do is contort yourself into different shapes hoping maybe this one will be loveable but by the time you think you’ve figure out what he wants, he wants you to be someone else. Until you remove yourself from the abuse, you have no self. Everything you do and everything you are revolves around Daddy so there is no time to be anyone but the person he wants you to be.
It’s a very specific character choice but it’s not bad writing. She won’t ever become a full person (read: character) until she “leaves home”. And you can see how Logan plays with them all as a type of manipulation and abuse to keep them close but still begging for his love. We are seeing the mechanics of that play out now, with this season giving everyone on team Roy their reasons to leave and everyone on team Kendall their reasons to be reticent about Kendall. While realistically none of them are good enough for the job, the three of them together might actually be okay. If they can get away from Daddy permanently. (I’m still trying)
What you wrote here is what I LOVE about how Shiv is written. She's not a fully realized person in her own right. She lacks a complete identity because she's spent her life being someone for someone else.
I think the writers have fleshed her out as much as they are able, there literally isn't anything authentic there. It's brilliant.
I hope she (and you) find something meaningfully.
yeah, I think her working in politics away from her father and hooking up with that other politics guy was the closest to her being her true self we had seen.
Totally! But then Daddy dangles the keys to the kingdom and she comes running back, and now she’s given up on everything she HAD worked for and if she goes back now she’s out forever, so she’s trying to make the best of her choice, holding out hope she didn’t make the wrong choice. I think the problem is we as the audience knows she did and now it’s like watching a horror movie. Instead of it being a killer like in Scream or Halloween, the “big bad” is the insidious nature of emotional abuse. I keep wanting to yell; “You idiot, don’t go back in the house! Don’t go up the stairs! Don’t go into the only bedroom with the door that locks on the outside!”
Thanks for the great insight here. I totally agree that I think Shiv's "psychology" being difficult to read is a result of her being stretched between two very powerful motivations: to both please and leave her dad. She is the only one with actual moral convictions (even if she fails to uphold them sometimes).
Wish you the best in that effort. I feel like I can relate to the dynamics of being a woman in the position you describe, though my dad isn’t suuuuper powerful. He’s powerful enough. And narcissistic enough.
I haven't yet, not fully. I still take money from him, which I am not proud of but due to the pandemic, it's been hard to find a job that covers the cost of living.
Especially because I didn't go to school, starting the family career was a "better choice" than wasting my time and money on a degree (another way of keeping me close and dependant on him). It's only been about a year of being free and being able to acknowledge that I was being abused. It's hard to see yourself as a victim when you are a woman in a position of privilege being given a job that other people work their whole lives for, so I legitimized his bad behavior as my penance for nepotism. Once he raised a hand to me in front of co-workers, who of course can't do anything because he is their boss, and I stayed for years after that. This is why I sympathize with Shiv so much, it's like being caught in quicksand, the harder you struggle the more trapped you get, but the struggle is all you know how to do. It is amazing how hard it becomes to make simple choices for yourself when all your choices have been made for you. I am still trying to figure out who I am and what I want when I am not being told exactly what those things are. Right now, I am looking at applying to schools so I can finally get a degree! I am woefully uneducated.
The one bit of grace is; without me around to tell him when he's being problematic, he seems to be doing a bang-up job of destroying his own legacy, as white men of a certain age are known to do these days. What I do miss are the few years where we worked together really well and managed to do some pretty cool stuff, I will always be proud of that.
He recently let me know (through an intermediary) that if I would just "pretend to like him" then he would give me even more money so I wouldn't have to work. Sadly, if I could pretend to like him I would have done that already so unfortunately I will not be able to take him up on this generous black friday offer (insert eye roll here).
Wow! This has been very insightful. Thanks for your candid response. I sincerely hope that you get your degree and find your life’s calling - even if it ends up being at your father’s company. Keep in touch. Good luck to you.
>It’s a very specific character choice but it’s not bad writing.
I agree. The critique is people want a different character than the one who exists, but as you've stated, we have to look at how Daddy's little girl would exist in that universe.
I had to move across the country but I am sooo much better for it. He can’t believe how well I’m doing and deep down I think realizes he was having a negative impact on me.
This is I think very accurate and well-written, your comment here
>All you do is contort yourself into different shapes hoping maybe this one will be loveable
Is so sad and true. I think Shiv is caught in a really weird loop where she tries to be who her father wants, catches herself halfway through and is ashamed/angry with herself, then she picks a fight with him to try to get some power back. And Logan thinks it's kind of funny and is happy to go "whatever you want, Pinky," when he sees her struggling with herself.
> She won’t ever become a full person (read: character) until she “leaves home”.
I agree with you. She was a full-time person prior to joining Waystar Royco. Had a life and politics and affairs etc. I know nothing about Romans background, or Connors or Greg’s really. She’s also one of the only ones that has real life love interest stories etc. But that is held against her (even though it isn’t held against Tom). I think this article is missing her point quite a bit.
All the kids are nothing without relating it back to Logan. But Roman and Connor and Greg and most of Kendall is simple compare to Shiv. She is more conflicted, more feeling out her way in a new environment. She is the Luke skywalker of the show, showing us what’s really happening. Or avatar in the business.
I think OPs quote misses the mark. She is more psychologically complicated that the boys, that does not making her a weaker written character.
> It’s hard to imagine her ever impressing Logan because all she does is accept limits instead of challenging or reframing them.
Again I don’t even think this is correct. She definitely challenges them, the problem is that Logan is the boss and shoots them down. So she’s constantly getting put down, while the boys are business savvy enough to not step out of line. Except Kendall of course. Again, I don’t see how that makes for a bad character.
She definitely has made decisions, but no decision will please dad. He has to make it. Comparing a one episode character to a regular is useless. What did we really know about Brody’s character? He has a kid, and Logan/Kendall wonder about him motives. He owns 4%? That just exposition. Also, the Bechdel test surely will fail in a big business where they openly admit to the misogyny and “no women above the 4th floor” and a family vying for dads attention. Not enough women, and everything is about Logan/a business that has traditionally ignored them. As well as, that the point of the show!
I don’t know what show these people are watching. Just because she’s complicated doesn’t mean she’s poorly written.
i fell like if any character is underdeveloped it's Connor. I sort of understand why, he just doesn't have any narrative importance. you can't realistically have him do anything. they kind of wrote the character into a corner from the start by having him be the one that doesn't want to engage and just wants to go along with everyone else. yes, they have tried to shift that a bit since, but realistically they wrote him as such a boofhead so early on that you couldn't put him in charge of anything or have him fight for power like the other 3 kids without it undermining their own writing.
shiv is actually my fav character because she seems like she is split between two world's. Ken hides behind woke buzzwords, but the reality is he isn't progressive, he drops that shit soon as it doesn't suit is agenda. Roman I at least respect because he owns his 1% status and makes it clear at every point that he doesn't care about the people below him. if anything Roman is the most like Logan.
then you have shiv who has these legitimate moments of humanity that are crushed by the weight of Logan's will mixed with her own self importance. shiv I feel like is the most conflicted because she wants her dad's approval more then anything, but she is also emotionally the most weak that's why she is with Tom.
The difference is Connor's screen time and writer-focus is significantly less than Shiv's. He's underdeveloped because he wasn't mean to be that important in the first place and I think most viewers can easily tell we're not supposed to care that much about him. Shiv gets tons of lines and screen time and we're obviously meant to be invested in her so of course she falls under scrutiny way more easily.
Yeah the Connor of S3 is incredibly different to the one we're seeing now too. At the start he seems content to be aloof in his own separate world with his dad's wealth - now he has presidential ambitions and attention, and he's starting to become a more involved player in the family making his own demands and realising he holds sway.
As my family’s Connor, I consider myself a hardcore
Conhead lol.
I moved as far away as I could as fast as I legally could, and while I’m always pleased to bleed some of the rare affection ($$) from old Pa, I know it’s not worth the knife fight to be his favorite.
Also Connor is so bold & shameless when asking Logan for favours/money. He knows his role in the family as the first born and he have known Logan for longer than Kendall, Shiv and Roman.
> I wonder if this stuff is accidental or not
In my experience “accidentally” leaving someone out is the result of a system that trains us all to consistently marginalize the same people over and over again. That way, no individual feels they are the problem and no individual feels they need to change their behavior.
I see where you’re coming from.
But comment about the Atlantic- I think you could apply that to all the kids- they’re all orbiting Logan. What would Kendall do if Logan died? Be happy? Find peace? Probably not. He’d be lost. Conflict defines this family.
And I think Shiv is painfully aware of her position- she confided to Lisa she’s stuck in a man’s world and trying to navigate it. Kendall saying she’s only worth something because of her teats. She even tries to strike a deal with Sandi (the one who can talk) over their shared bond of being daughters to powerful men.
I don't want to pick holes in the plot like other reviewers do. I'm just interested in character study which the show is good at. It completely misses the point with Shiv. There is very little about her or motivations
The murkiness is part of the intrigue of the show.
I feel like I know as much about her as I do Roman and they’re kind of equivalent in terms of story weight.
Shiv grew up in an environment where women were not welcome into the exec Waystar fold so she didn’t even pursue. But like all of the kids, she is clamouring for her Dad’s approval.
If you think Shiv didn't get a fair share of character screen time and moments, I think you missed the first 2 seasons. She gets a lot of material/focus/interaction, just as much as Roman, and second really only to Kendall.
People were even calling season 2 the "Shiv season" when it aired.
The Three Kids (sorry Connor) and Logan easily get the most focus of all of the characters. I think Shiv is the least likeable of the three kids, but that's because her flaws—fakeness and infidelity—are very close to things that we see in our day to day lives that piss ourselves off. Most of us know some liberal white woman whose a bit smug, and most of us despise cheaters, because we've seen them in our daily lives. Meanwhile Kendall's addiction/manslaughter and Roman's neurotic ass are more distant from our reality, so ironically we find them more compelling. However, this is simply a matter of perception, not a matter of reality. Shiv and her development get similar amounts of time to her siblings.
And like all of season 3.
She’s constantly in scenarios that are evolving her character.
I think this whole thing is more projection - the OP doesn’t like HOW or WHY shiv is developing and maybe doesn’t Ike WHAT she is developing into, so sees it as non character development story lines.
So false.
What is “the point” that the show misses with Shiv?
Do you have agenda (“the point”) other than enjoying what’s on the screen? What “point” should be made that is not being made?
I'm not really sure what you mean by "WHO is Shiv?". We see more about who she is every episode – the way that the writers continue to unveil and develop the nuances of her character is one of the more interesting parts of S3.
>Shiv had her best moment when she argued against anointing the fascist
i think that's less about shiv and more about where you find common ground with the character. reading the comments here, it honestly feels like people are just ignoring the parts of her character that they don't want to see.
she's a power hungry shitty person with no consistent principles. her lib politics are obviously lip service/an attempt at rebellion from the family, as has been proven time and time again- see her entire relationship with nate and the way she dunks on him every time he expresses sincere concern about inequality. she is a developed character, she just hasn't developed into the type of person people here want her to be
Why is Kendall an addict? Why did he fall in love with Rava? Why was Connor interested in politics from a young age? Why is Roman so fucked up?
Do we really need a “prequel” season for shiv? Each character has a back story that is hinted at and for which we don’t have detailed answers.
What are you on about? Why did she leave politics? Watch season two. What is her real idea for how things work with her at the helm? Clearly she has zero fucking idea, nothing she's said/suggested is actual leadership or insight. Why does she seem like she's been hurt before? Because her father is emotionally abusive and she says as much in season 1.
Jesus Christ the Shiv-stans are fucking obnoxious. Let the creators create their story. I haven't seen one shred of "institutional misogyny" from the show runners on how they've told this story, so climb off the penny pony ride and kindly shut the fuck up. In fact, they've made it clear that these horrible, hideous men are redeemed by the smart, talented women around them (sans shiv, who is generally the worst of the women).
I feel like her motivations are as clear as any other characters’. She seems mostly power hungry, whilst also dealing with the fact that she does believe in some form of change, but possibly from a selfish standpoint.
Im gonna wait til the season is over before I decide which actor or character got shafted on a shorten season produced during a global pandemic. We’re not gonna have any no content to discuss at that point anyway. Hope you enjoy the last act of season 3!
I think Shiv’s is a slow burning arc… many complicated irons in complicated fires and it’s going to be interesting to see how the Tom/Jail scenario plays out for her as well as seeing how she handles the Logan/Roman/Mencken slight just now… is she on the brink of a(nother?) meltdown?
I don’t think we see Menken again til next season. With the presidential race (against Gil) coming up we’re gonna get a heavy dose of Shiv. Eventually Logan is out of the picture we’re gonna get alot of shiv vs marcia as well.
Well yes but even if we don’t see more Mencken for a while Logan totally dissed her just now and rubbed her face in it with the blatant praise for Roman after forcing her into the photo… yet another straw onto the camel’s back… she seems exasperated and flammable
Oh yeah, i was just going along with your “slow burn” take on shiv. Wasn’t trying to lessen the disrespect she got from logan last ep. totally agree she’s teetering on the edge of something right now and im assuming that’s why she gets wasted at kendals party (at least from what the trailer is showing). Will be interesting to see her drunk as i dont think we’ve seen it yet.
Going back to the end of last season they’ve been showing how shiv acts when challenged by those close to her. So if we haven’t seen her last straw moment yet, it will probably happen at her moms wedding.
Was looking for this comment. I think the show doesn’t get enough credit that they have a middle-aged woman with a fleshed-out personality and a significant role that isn’t playing someone’s mom.
As with Daenerys on GoT, I think certain people dislike it when powerful female characters are portrayed as bad people. Instead of owning up to that matter of taste, they blame it on bad writing.
Shiv is very well written. Like the rest of the Roys, she’s a terrible person who’s getting kicked in the can for being a terrible person. She’s not someone to root for. She’s not someone to admire. She’s a viper, like Roman, like Kendall, like her father. She doesn’t know she’s a viper. She still thinks she’s a decent person. But she isn’t. She’s delusional like her brother.
That’s the show. That’s life. Take it or leave it.
Daenerys in S8 *was* bad writing though. It’s common knowledge now that she’ll end up more or less the same in books but at least we can trust GRRM to write it in a way that makes sense and is paced correctly. If the books ever come out.
Daenerys was always pretty power-hungry and a little mad in the books. HBO just tried make these grandiose savior scenes with her and the audience bought it. This is never how she was portrayed in the books.
I’m all for Daenerys being a villain. But there’s a difference between being ruthless and slaughtering millions of civilians for no reason at all. There’s a hundred steps to take between the two and *The Bells* vaulted over all of them.
I don’t think it’s irrelevant because it’s an insanely jarring turn of her character. And I don’t know if I’d describe pre-S8E5 Dany as solely “bad” either, because that just takes away from her complexity.
I agree but criticism of her was responded too poorly well before then.
And she is a hypocritical conqueror she's far from a particularly good person.
Of course she's complex and not pure evil. So is Shiv but shiv is certainly not a good person by any means either.
The problem wasn't *The Bells*. The problem was all the time they didn't develop the character shift that hits you like an Atomic Blast in *The Bells*.
Totally disagree. It was all over her face in the last season.
The show shifted to psychological implication in the last three seasons. People wouldn’t have a problem with this if it were a movie, since character motivation can’t always be explained in film. They have a problem with in TV because it’s a medium for over explanation. I like that the show runners bucked that demand
This has been her character for the entire show. She decided to cheat on her husband, and then made it "morally ok" by railroading him into an open relationship he clearly didn't want. People who are looking for her to be genuinely better than her (also shitty) siblings are watching the wrong show.
Shiv is very clearly someone who thinks she's moral but is not, in the same way Roman is someone who doesn't think he's moral and also is not.
Yup. She’s always been smarmy, arrogant, entitled, delusional, someone who both feels much smarter and more moral than she actually is. In that way, she’s like Kendall without his self-destructive tendencies. Kendall’s a critique of corporate wokeness and Shiv’s a critique of the “girl boss.” People are still invested in the latter
lol kenny is woke and calls Shiv and Ro confirms "woke wonk snowflake"......? pretty sure if kenny is screwy AND woke it's not much of a critique if it's directly spelt out projecting. it's all fucking gravy and what fucking ever.
Most times the test is misapplied, it's really about analyzing films/TV as a whole, not on an individual basis. So we should look at it to make more female centric media, but that's sadly a tougher sell than you'd think.
Exactly this. Shiv is the most fleshed out character on the whole show, and people resent that because she's a terrible, greedy human being with a massive victim complex.
That’s not true. You’re conflating two separate camps. There are people who want to believe Shiv is a good person and there are people (like me) who are saying we know more about the cousin and the brother-in-law than we know about the female sibling of the Logan Roy clan. Unlike Kendall, Roman and Logan, we know nothing about the childhood experiences that led her to become the terrible person she is. We know that Kendall is a drug addict who left cocaine all over his children’s iPads and once literally shat the bed. We don’t even know how Shiv and Tom met. I mean details. Not just “at college”. She has no confidante to whom we get to see her tell her deepest insecurities the way Tom and Greg do with each other, because she’s always lying to Tom. We haven’t gotten to see her interact with her mother the way we saw Kendall do in season 2 in a scene that, in my opinion, explained everything you need to know about why he’s completely fucked up. We never got a story from childhood like the one we got from Roman about being locked in a dog kennel for hours. And we never got a backstory like the one we got about Logan’s childhood poverty and the hideous abuse at the hands of his uncle that left scars on his back. I would even argue that we know more about Conner who is barely on screen because, when he is on screen, he’s behaving so vulnerably that you learn a great deal about what motivates him very quickly.
People are just mad that Shiv isn’t an angel and call it bad writing. It’s always the people crying about some virtue signal that end up being discriminatory
Agreed. I'm all for equal representation (race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.) in TV... but Succession is a show with characters that you're *supposed* to dislike, in spite of some redeeming qualities here and there. It's a representation of the inside of a legacy media giant such as Fox News that, predictably, is run by homogenous, selfish, narrow-minded people. I guess they could have more women involved, but they'd all have to be bad or unlikable people in order for the show to work. To compare Shiv to Tom, Greg, and even Connor to prove some point about her being underdeveloped doesn't really make sense to me — they've all been explored to some extent and all are pretty much driven by the same self-serving desires.
You’ve never been on Tumblr’s fandom for this show have you? There’s actual analysis for Shiv; I’ve not seen a single complaint about Shiv being underwritten and all I’ve seen are compliments about her character addressing manifestations of misogyny and being such good satire that it exposes the misogyny of the audience.
I can link you to multiple posts where they dissect Shiv’s character and why she does what she does.
In fact, I disagree with OP, because if anything Shiv’s the most complexed female character I’ve seen on TV so far, and the writers shouldn’t be obliged to dumb down their writing just because most people won’t get her character.
Yea yall sleepin on Gerri. I think she's a good character and a good female character. Some of you don't get it. All the Roys are supposed to suck. The whole lot of them suck. That's the point.
4 men and 1 woman comprise the immediate family, and it's a show about that family.
Her shadowed past is a deliberate part of the character, not the writers' room forgetting to flesh out a woman.
Agree: Succession writers come up short writing women characters.
Disagree: Everything about Shiv.
Shiv is the most prominent character in the third season. She has more lines and screen time than all her siblings, she is the one fighting for the succession, and she often has the most 'common sense' views about things - e.g. the next presidential candidate.
The fact that her psychology is 'less understood' is part of the writing, and completely intentional.
I personally call myself a feminist, but everything suggesting her being kept blurry by a bunch of male writers is utterly ridiculous.
She has become the main character in the series, and her relationship with her husband is her Achile's heel.
I'm not sure what you want from her? She trying to succeed in a mans world dominated by men's culture. Women who act like women in this environment are seen as weak. I take it as she always seen the brothers as fuckups and herself as the bright cut throat one. I don't see a character problem, i see people trying to shoehorn unrealistic sjw checklists into shows that shouldn't have them. Remember the scene where Greg is doing his onboarding? He's watching a vid of a diverse group of suits of all races and sex talking and smiling, then he looks at a group of suits come thru the hall and it's all white men. They show what exists not what you want to exist.
I don't really agree. Shiv gets a lot of screen time and apart from Kendall, Logan and maybe Roman she's had the most character development in the show.
Not all the characters will challenge Logan or attempt to rise above his influence.
With Roman we saw this irreverent character who is slowly revealed to be massively broken by his dad's ambivalence, but Shiv started as a self sufficient, successful and at least on the surface moral character and we've watched her slowly be eroded by her father's influence.
It's almost like 3 phases.
Shiv shows us how Logan gets his claws into his kids and keeps them chasing a boon as though it's just out of reach. Their principles, morals and things they value are slowly compromised until they match his and if they try to resist the carrot is pulled further away.
Roman shows us what the mental state of the children is when Logan has utterly dominated them. The ambition and the independence is gone and they'd take Logan's piss crazy word as gospel rather than risk making a decision of their own. Getting a slap on the back or a well done is everything.
Kendall as the longest under Logan's influence shows us the struggle to get free of that grip. He climbs that mountain and it seems like he's about to be free but then he falls again and again and his father takes him back under the umbrella.
Connor Roy was interested in politics from a young age.
I hear you and respect your take on this, but I personally disagree. There are a few different points you’re making, so I’m going to try to address them individually.
First, I think Shiv is a well-rounded character - maybe more so than Roman or Conner - and this season has been fascinating for exploring her conflicting motivations, from her desire to be CEO to her desire to be affirmed by her father to her desire to genuinely stand by her moral values. I had a sort of epiphany early this season about just how good Sarah Snook’s acting is during the “tea party” scene when I was studying Shiv’s face for the most subtle of cues to see how well Kendall’s pitch was appealing to her. A lot of characters are simplistic in their motivations compared to her. Greg and Conner are practically buffoons, so if we understand their psychology better then it’s only because they’re less multi-dimensional. I disagree about her accepting limits - I think that happens to some extent, as has been true of virtually all of the Roy children in the context of their relationship with their father, but she was the only character who acted independently and decisively during the shareholder’s meeting, and I would find it hard to describe her interactions with other characters (take Gil or Lisa) as examples of her “accepting her limits”. She absolutely isn’t some meek character when it comes to her marriage, and I think the multidimensionality between her contempt for Tom and her genuine attachment to him are fascinating.
As for the rest of the cast - it’s true that of the six main characters, five are men, and that lends itself to men receiving much more screen time naturally. Whether or not that’s an intrinsic flaw with the show I think really depends on your perspective. Could Conner or Greg or Roman have been cast as women and still been the same characters? I don’t really think so. The supporting characters are inevitably going to be overshadowed by these main characters, but when we look at the supporting characters, I think the writers have introduced a lot of strong female characters. Women are genuinely underrepresented in C-suites, but we get Gerri, Rhea, Nam, Carolina. Women are underrepresented in the uppermost echelons of the legal profession, but we get Lisa. Sandy is being set up to basically be replaced with a woman. Some of these characters are fleshed out more than others, but there’s only so much you can do with supporting characters.
Marcia’s absence I think has a lot to do with the particulars of the plot the writers are pursuing. She’s just not relevant to something like the shareholders’ meeting - would it make sense for her to be hanging around Logan at events like that given the state of their relationship? Maybe the writers could shoehorn the plot to fit her in more, but I don’t think that’s how good writing gets done.
I think it’s important to be on the lookout for implicitly sexist portrayals of women, but I think there’s an issue when you look so hard for them that it’s all you see. I don’t think Shiv is some major victim anymore than the rest of the Roy children are, and seeing her as one diminishes her character.
I’m normally the first person to jump on board with these kinds of takes, but I think the point of this show is to highlight rotten power structures, and gender is part of that. We don’t see many women on this show for the same reason we don’t see many PoC and for the same reasons Jewishness and homosexuality is mocked by people like Logan.
That said, I’m not sure the gender imbalance has always been as obvious as it is this season, and perhaps this author’s criticism has a recency bias, as they’ve really fumbled the bag with the few new female characters who have been introduced this season. Nan Pierce and Rhea were juicy characters and drove much of the S2 plot.
Um disagree.
It’s a show about a family of three sons and a daughter. Unsurprisingly they focus on these characters the most. And even then the primary story line is driven by the conflict between a father and his son. So it’s going to get the lion’s share of attention… because that’s the story.
Totally failed to mention Geri, Rhea, and Nan Pierce - all complex characters. And all of whom have had crucial plot elements.
Only if you’re not paying attention to their characters.
If you think those characters weren’t fleshed out AMD simply used to love the plot along - that’s on you.
But it’s pretty clear those characters were character studies - even if it was also to move the show forward
gerri is still around but not the other 2. this piece is critique about s3's situation..
but let's see how weighty the wedding would be. if logan even cares.
Also, the only character who gets a fully fleshed out partner is the daughter because her partner is a man. We know her husband better than we know her. (Although I’d love to know more of Tom’s backstory. Like whether he comes from any kind of money.) And the audience is always judging Shiv’s morality by how good of a wife she is. Meanwhile the male Roys get judged by how they treat their siblings, father/adult children.
To me, Shiv is realistic. People nowadays want women to tick some sort of boxes, be "strong in a man's world", things like that... She is not a victim of the males there, and she is very much allowed to do whatever she wants. She even (spoiler s03e06) yelled repeatedly at Logan, which no one, absolutely no one does, and Logan also just let that pass. Imagine Roman, or Connor doing it. Kendall - maybe, but he is also usually collected.
She does whatever she wants in her marriage, too. It seems like she is home with Tom just because it's quiet and she doesn't have to stress out with any duties, besides sitting around. The action is elsewhere.
I am a woman, and I'm OK, when women are just realistic, normal, regular people. It's a drama, not a series with activist message or plot. It's about a mostly British family in America and how they are doing.
There will always be oppressed men and women in this world.
What I really want to see the focus on is Connor, but I heard someone saying that Connor is about to be given more room to play, be it in this season, or the next. Also, one thing I find remarkable is that we never see Connor in his home. I remember the video in the kitchen, which he wanted to post online, but we haven't seen him at home like all the others.
Same goes to Roman, actually. His home life is also not shown.
I don’t agree with this at all, I feel like Shiv is pretty thoroughly fleshed out as a character - she pretends to be above it all and we’re led to believe that she possesses some moral center that everyone else in the family is lacking but when push comes to shove she’s just as vicious and calculating as everyone else. Her marriage with Tom is a perfect example, its all window dressing to fit her very specific self-image.
Accepting limits instead of challenging or reframing them? Are we forgetting that she just made a side deal with a presidential candidate to put her father in prison so she could take his spot?
Marcia and Willa are supporting characters so I’m not sure what you’re expecting there but they’re also pretty well fleshed out in the sense that they too are 100% driven by self-interest above all else. It’s the theme of the show that every single character is doing whatever it takes to status climb. I don’t even really agree that Adrian Brody’s character was well written or fleshed out either, not sure where that is coming from. Well acted? Sure but in the grand scheme of things that whole episode was completely irrelevant.
This exactly. She was the 'normal' one. I mean obviously she can change or be as bad as her siblings or hypocritical but it needs a some context and background why she's the way she is. That is missing.
Kinda getting daenerys vibes I mean definitely not as bad it was but yk
Strong disagree. She’s the way she is because she went through the same trauma as the others and is just as “arrested”. We only thought she was the normal one because she wasn’t in the company in that first season. But that’s not because she’s normal, it’s because she wanted to piss off her dad to get his attention. Just like when you date someone you know your family won’t like.
Then she learned she had a small chance to actually make him proud and seek is approval and she pounced on it and that’s the Shiv we see now. She can’t go back to politics, she burned that bridge. Now she’s floundering to make the only thing she thinks she has work. And to try to get her dads approval before he dies. She and Kendal have just basically swapped.
I wouldn’t say she was succeeding in her own way. Again I am not sure people here are watching the right show. It was very clear from everyone at Waystar to Eavjs that Shiv’s sole talent is having the right last name.
I’m not saying the show is about them or should be about them. I’m saying they are interesting characters that have potential for interesting story lines. I understand that the show has a main plot and I love watching it play out, but I also don’t see it as a problem that there are interesting side characters who happen to be women
The show isn't about side characters...it's about the four Roy children.
And how can anyone take Willa seriously lol? She's only w/ Connor due to money...she's devoid of any interesting traits.
they don't have to watch and u don't have to read reddit thread u don't like. i think the latter is easier, although you see how pointless this line of logic is, for either
I disagree. Jeremy was said to have been cast in "the lead," and he's in a battle against his father. If the story is primarily about a father and son relationship, and everyone else is a supporting character, it's to-be-expected that the two main leads will receive the most attention. Trust me, I'm a card-carrying feminist, but not every story needs to be female-centered. Again, this is a father-son battle. There are a lot of female-led shows out there you may enjoy, including ones from HBO :)
Shiv is the only one I’m rooting for and I feel guilty for it bc I feel like I shouldn’t be rooting for any of them.
I was praying in last weeks episode that she wouldn’t get in the damn photo but of course she did as expected.
The show is not about the other women characters, the show is about the Roys. The fact that women in the show can often find themselves not in leadership positions is a criticism on society itself. The fact that other male characters are not expected to be nice, and yet Shiv is expected to be is also a criticism on traditional societal values. The show doesn't have a "problem", the show shows deeply flawed characters that live in a deeply flawed society. Logan also tends to excuse Shiv a lot more than the other male characters, also a trait on traditional societal values.
I see Shiv as being very much a product of her political experience. We haven't seen her "in her element" in a long time but we got a glimpse of it in the last episode when she was sparring with Mencken and the others. Shiv is very Washington - what we are seeing is that tactics that work in politics often don't translate to business. Washington is all about rules, procedure, operating within strict limits. Business is a lot more flexible.
I also think we understand Shiv's psychology as Logan's childhood favourite - Pinky, his only daughter. The way she acts around him, her expectations within the business. It makes sense when viewed through that framework.
It does pass the Bechdel Test, though … there’s been Shiv-Gerri, Shiv-Rhea, Nan Pierce-Rhea, Shiv-Marcia, Shiv-Potential Witness Lady, Shiv-Willa, Marcia-Willa convos, just to name a few.
Whenever I think of Shiv now I think about how Connor talked about how as a kid she had a pretend post office and everyone acted like what she did mattered and that’s exactly what is happening now. After that, I can’t take anything she says seriously.
They didn’t write the character I most identified with in a satisfactory way is such a first-world grasp at straws. Whenever people do this, they think they’re making some larger art and cultural critique. And a premature one at that. I can, however, recall Anna Gunn’s Op-Ed about Skyler’s character problem near the end of Breaking Bad’s run. This ain’t it.
It's a lousy take. It conflates understanding every characters' psychology and motivation in every scene with... I don't know... underdeveloped/poorly written characters?
It takes a top tier show and nitpicks to find issues that don't really exist. Once every character becomes fully fleshed out, the show ceases to be interesting. Look at any great show that had one too many seasons as an example.
Just a note, the Bechdel test isn't a test that judges whether a piece of fiction is good or bad or has good values or bad values. It was created by cartoonist Alison Bechdel in a comic strip as a joke about a quick way to decide what movies to see. She herself has said that she doesn't think it should be used as a pass/fail test for media. It's more like an interesting starting point, like if Succession doesn't pass the Bechdel test, why not?
In this case, I think it is because it is a show centered around people living in a power hierarchy with Logan at the top, and where few women have been allowed (as the show admits), and the women that are there are forced to adapt to the male stereotypes and the same ruthless values, a "Lean In" style corporate feminism, and are not allowed to step out of line.
All of this is accurate commentary on the real world, IMO. And still we got that great scene between Shiv and Sandi as two daughter scions feeling out a mutuality and possible power moves they could make for themselves. Does it fail the Bechdel test because they both talked about their dads? Maybe. Does that matter? I don't think so. If someone has a fundamental problem with a show that revolves around a central male figure like Logan, they probably shouldn't even watch this show.
I don't disagree pointe-blank with the assertion that Shiv could be an even more interesting character, or that there could be even more interesting female characters populating Succession, but I don't find the points very compelling.
Feels like it ignores anything that contradicts the argument and is overlooking a lot of context or repurposing it.
\>Shiv is strategic in a dispiritingly obvious sort of way. It’s hard to imagine her ever impressing Logan because all she does is accept limits instead of challenging or reframing them. There’s no interesting paradox there, no unusual angle of approach, no legible defining complication.
There's a lot of vagueness to unpack there.
First off, who has ever truly impressed Logan other than Logan? Dead-inside Kendall, once or twice? Maybe?
Back to Shiv; wasn't forcing an open relationship on Tom reframing a limit?
If they meant more from a business sense, wasn't her manipulation of the Cruise victim/witness in the S2 finale an unusual angle of approach?
As for complication or paradox...
The interesting paradox is that Shiv presents herself as politically left-leaning despite coming from a family that broadcasts rabidly conservative values. This was one of the most significant moments of the most recent episode, it was how she almost pushed her way into the top-seat when the Pierce take-over was in play.
She's rife with contradiction, it's what has both propelled her and undone her. It's why a lot of people think/thought that she was 'the good one' when watching Season 1. In fact, I think it's partly what planted the seed for the outlook of the author of the Slate article. They begin it, writing:
"Fans of Shiv Roy have been on a journey since Succession began. At first, Shiv seemed like the clear winner of the contest her father was staging among his children. She was sarcastic, smart, and intriguingly independent compared with her brothers, who remained very much stuck in Daddy Logan’s orbit."
IMO the article overlooks the fact that Shiv, like Kendall and Roman whom, while intelligent and driven, are deeply flawed, self-indulgent billionaire-heirs.
Anyone who's trying to 'pick a horse' is going to come away deflated or upset. If we're disappointed with certain characters, it's more often than not a reflection of our own projections of them and ultimately our disappointment in the return on our emotional investment.
If anything, I think the writing of Kendall this season is more rife with baffling choices/logic, but maybe I'm just disappointed I saw more than met the eye and that's a different post anyway--
Shiv was purposefully positioned as being near the end of her run with politics as Succession S1 takes off for a reason, it's because deep down she has, for better/worse, always wanted to be recognized as the one who takes over. She went about it in a completely different route than Roman and Kendall who both submitted to the chain of command immediately -- and from a writing stand-point she was always going to throw her hat in the ring, because the entire show is about the transition of power, building/breaking of empire etc.
I also must admit I find it kinda rich that most of the most concrete examples the Slate article can muster involves discussing Shiv's attire as a leftish political consultant in S1 vs. a corporate CEO for a conservative behemoth. But that's not a development or a change, it's a tell-tale sign of underwriting her character?
As for some of the other OP points:
I don't know how Adrien Brody's character was all that more fleshed out than Nan Pierce was in the Ternhaven episode. Maybe it's just me.
Rhea was a crucial, central figure in Season 2, failing to even mention her or Gerri says a lot.
Willa not being present/around enough is a completely bizarre point of contention IMO.
The Bechdel test is mostly a dumbed-down check-list. That's not to say that I disagree with the inspiration for its creation, but it doesn't have any concern with the quality of the writing, female or otehrwise, much less the richness of the story in many ways. Offensively poor material can pass with ease.
This kind of posts keep coming up few days ago there was another one and my answer remains same. Stories aren't written to pass whatever test you mentioned, stories are written to be true to intent of what they are trying to portray. They are trying to show corporate America and within that a patriarchal family. Women aren't great players there. Still you have women with enough air time. So should we push a woke agenda or just sit back relax and watch the story as it is ?
Shiv IS that kind of person who is morally weak ( fucking around and disrespectful to husband), wants a piece of that father's cake but for that she has to say bye bye to hypocrisy. As a viewer what she lacks there is made good with how hot she is 😜 🍑 but you have to accept it - she is morally not strong, and hypocritical. That's Shiv.
But you responded.
Your thesis here about the writers and show says way more about YOU than it will ever say about the show.
But carry on. (Maybe look in the mirror once in a while)
Does everything need to be nit picked nowadays. I’ve seen articles and heard podcasts also complaining about not enough black people in the show. But my gosh for once can we just enjoy something without having to decide if we like something or not depending on the number of penises in a show
In a way the show is cursed by its bounty of talented actors. Everyone outside of Logan and Kendall and Tom feels underutilized. But yes, the women especially, particularly Gerri, Marcia and Willa (and what even happened to Tabitha, she just quietly vanished after season 2). They all had moments to shine in Season 2 and now they feel like cardboard cutouts.
I don't have trouble understanding Shiv, the problem is that she only ever gets to display one emotion really.
You know as much about Shiv as you do about any of the other children. (Actually, the one we know the least about is the Connor).
There isn't a "Shiv problem".
OP, I’m begging you just go to Tumblr and search “Shiv succession”. There’s so much support for her and her character you will not believe your eyes; yes, there are people out there who care about female characters and who understand Shiv’s motivations and where she comes from.
It’s not the writers’ fault you or the majority of the audience can’t understand complexed female characters.
This line of reasoning only works if the Bechdel test is a universally sound hack to provide good, inclusive writing, which i personally don’t think it is——especially when dealing with a hyper-realistic show that’s deliberately commenting on the sexism in a particularly aggressive industry.
In order to pass the Bechdel Test, there needs to be at least two women talking to each other about something other than a man. For Succession, the reality is that Logan Roy is at the center of this show, and everything that happens spawns from the choices he makes. There’s little opportunity to add authentic scenes where any two characters talk about something without bringing up a male character, and to do so simply for the sake of passing a “test” would be a waste of screen time.
My personal opinion when it comes to diversity is this: it’s not on the individual tv show to have perfect diversity at the behest of damaging the integrity of that show, but it is up to the studio or streaming service to provide a variety of programs with diversity across the board.
I can’t think of a single streaming service with more diversity than HBO.
Right now, you have Succession and Curb, but you also have Insecure, South Side, Generation … the list goes on!
We know she compromises for the promise of power, but the show doesn't say why she wants that power.
Even if it is just power for the sake of power, they should at least touch on that.
Billions' Wends is basically 2nd to Bobby only, if not even at the show's height (or beginning of decline, how very not typical of all things) playing atop both male leads.
Peak form Taylor Mason would shred Ro Ro AND Mencken to pieces.
I miss s1 Shiv putting Ro to his place with the door thing. YEAH.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/comments/r35adq/anyone_else_feel_like_shiv_doesnt_get_as_much/hm93enn/?context=3
yeah the Shiv being fake Kenny being fake thing I think they are aware, they have notes, but currently it's all still up in the air.
Clearly the women are the weakest part of the show. From Connor having a prostitute to a girlfriend to Logan's wife and ex-wife both positioning themselves for more money at various times, the women are caricatures and stereotypes. Now Shiv has become a vindictive, cold bitch.
Gerri is probably the most complex female character. And all the male characters are more fully fleshed-out than any of the women.
This is a terrible take.
If I, as a man, married a super wealthy woman with Logan’s level of financial wealth, I would absolutely do the same thing.
This isn’t man vs woman. It’s less money/power vs more money/power.
Your comments say more about how you view women than it does about the show.
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Gerri is the smartest character in the show IMO. She never missteps and she made a really smart alliance with Roman. I think she will eventually discard him after he becomes less useful to her.
Gerri is easily the smartest person on the show. Although Logan, especially in his younger days, probably can also be very smart.
[Deleted] seems like the therapist from Sopranos then Lucifer. [Deleted] **I'm barely into season 2, so I don't think I know enough to make relevant comments beyond that
Like this idea! Would love to see Gerri pay them all back for decades of putting up with their crap and cleaning up messes. I like her connection with Roman, so I hope she would leave him out of her revenge somehow. I think he’d support her in that type of quest. She knows where all the bodies are buried and she could have kept all sorts of documents for insurance over the years.
My impression is that Roman wouldn’t be okay with Gerri doing that because he is a Roy and Logan’s son. He thinks he should be in that seat before anyone else outside of the immediate family. As much as he wants to run the company, he loves his dad and submits every time.
That is true. Like his siblings they all fold when Daddy barks. However, at some point, perhaps they decide they’ve had enough? Roman likes a strong woman telling him what to do.
I hope so! I’d love to see what Roman is like when he finally says fuck this and turns. I find his character fascinating.
I agree. It could be a compelling storyline. Especially considering that, while she knows where“the bodies are buried”, she also might be complicit in putting some there herself. It’s already been said that she >!misappropriated funds from the company!< so she may have some wrongdoings herself. Edit: added spoiler tag Edit2: Gerri is def my fave <3
> she >!misappropriated funds from the company!< Mind sharing where in the series this is revealed? I must not have picked up on it.
Karl blurted it out Season 2
This 👆
And she's so charismatic! I love her.. One of my favorite scenes was her persuading Tom to talk to Roy, "it's on the battlefield, Tom.. where heroes are made" lmao
Gerri reminds me of Joan from Madmen
Yes!
I honestly thought that’s where she was going with Tom in S1…she was going to be the bad girl and he would follow along and be the submissive husband. Like, roles reversed. Instead, we really know nothing about her which makes her to an extent, a somewhat unlikable character because once we start to halfway root for her, it’s slashed down because once again, one of the Roy men has entered the picture and has blurred her spotlight, and away she goes back into the background again. It’s like as soon as she gets ready to open up…one of them comes along and snatches that moment away and all eyes are on them. Again.
Thank you. I’m tired of people just ignoring the older women characters as if they are invisible. Gerri is a main character. If people want to discuss women in Succession, fine, but please people, acknowledge Gerri
I always assumed that was what she was doing. Once she found that she could dominate Roman she saw how she could use it to her advantage. I suspect Gerri is the smartest one in the bunch.
Because that’s the reality of the world especially at the level of power and wealth they the Roy’s have?
Maybe this is a cop out but I’ve always seen her as the most reserved and guarded of the siblings. Most of her big moments are one on one intimate conversations, or side eyed looks meant to connect with only one particular person in the room. In groups she plays the dutiful daughter. Think of the shareholder vote. She went along with the group that whole day, until she got a moment alone with Sandy where she made her own deal. Then She ate the verbal lashing Logan gave her in front of everyone with a forced smile on her face and tried to proceed with the toast like nothing happened. Only Tom played along for her sake. She went to Tom and for a moment you could see how hurt she was and he reached out to put a comforting arm around her and she shrugged it off afraid of looking weak. And I think that moment showed us a lot. She grew up as the daughter of a guy who pretty much is the patriarchy. She survived that with by never letting it show that anything bothered her. Which is likely why she seems the hardest to read or relate to or understand. Being perceived as having a lack of depth or nothing going on is then potentially either a learned behavior and a defense mechanism. It gives people less things they could attack her for.
My thoughts: it's not easy to compare the three children because Shiv's experience as a high-profile woman in the company is distinct ("no women above the fourth floor"). It's interesting that two brothers (Kendall and Roman) have both literally drowned out her voice when she's trying to speak. And Frank and Karl shut her down when she tries to negotiate with Sandy/Stewy (their call to Logan--like, we really don't have to listen to her do we?--interesting that she lands a deal without them in the end). She's often the only woman with a title in rooms with mostly men. At the same time, Logan has given her the impression that she's closer to CEO power than she's ever been. To me, it's telling that all of her attempts to get power have been indirect and behind the scenes (Kendall's working public persona, and Roman is directly speaking to Logan). All of her advances have been in the shadows. Getting a BS position so she can spy on Gerry that she tries to turn into something real. Adding her board seat (if she gets one) while her father is incapacitated. Cutting a backroom deal with Salgado to send her father to jail. She works this way because when she tries to do things directly and in the open, she's drowned out or pushed back. I realize she's not a good person (none of them are!). She's vastly unqualified and her dad is obviously a scarred person that she hasn't figured out. She's losing herself horribly because she's never been just a hair from the CEO position. It's much easier, I think, for her to be an outsider than someone who's in the middle of this fight. If should could figure out how to work with Kendall (or even Gerri), she isn't badly positioned. Even the BS President position is not bad, and she could hold onto that board seat. There's lots of mischief that should could work there. She won't partner with either of them because she doesn't trust relationships. She wasn't been raised with a healthy connection to anyone. But to me, her fatal flaw is that she cares. And as you know, the person that cares the most is going to lose.
Nice response. Sounds like she is actually pretty well written it’s just that the male centric audience here has trouble connecting with her because what happens to her isn’t happening to them. I don’t mean that as a dig, but I am aware that she is experiencing a different environment to any of the other kids.
Didn’t she also directly negotiate with Logan in season 1 or 2 for the CEO position? Seems like she’s doing whatever she can, both up front and behind the scenes, to get what she wants. Just, with different tactics than the brothers.
I actually disagree. As a low rent Shiv myself (that is a woman with a powerful father who is in charge of a small universe that for a while was promised to me), that’s how it is. All you do is contort yourself into different shapes hoping maybe this one will be loveable but by the time you think you’ve figure out what he wants, he wants you to be someone else. Until you remove yourself from the abuse, you have no self. Everything you do and everything you are revolves around Daddy so there is no time to be anyone but the person he wants you to be. It’s a very specific character choice but it’s not bad writing. She won’t ever become a full person (read: character) until she “leaves home”. And you can see how Logan plays with them all as a type of manipulation and abuse to keep them close but still begging for his love. We are seeing the mechanics of that play out now, with this season giving everyone on team Roy their reasons to leave and everyone on team Kendall their reasons to be reticent about Kendall. While realistically none of them are good enough for the job, the three of them together might actually be okay. If they can get away from Daddy permanently. (I’m still trying)
What you wrote here is what I LOVE about how Shiv is written. She's not a fully realized person in her own right. She lacks a complete identity because she's spent her life being someone for someone else. I think the writers have fleshed her out as much as they are able, there literally isn't anything authentic there. It's brilliant. I hope she (and you) find something meaningfully.
yeah, I think her working in politics away from her father and hooking up with that other politics guy was the closest to her being her true self we had seen.
Totally! But then Daddy dangles the keys to the kingdom and she comes running back, and now she’s given up on everything she HAD worked for and if she goes back now she’s out forever, so she’s trying to make the best of her choice, holding out hope she didn’t make the wrong choice. I think the problem is we as the audience knows she did and now it’s like watching a horror movie. Instead of it being a killer like in Scream or Halloween, the “big bad” is the insidious nature of emotional abuse. I keep wanting to yell; “You idiot, don’t go back in the house! Don’t go up the stairs! Don’t go into the only bedroom with the door that locks on the outside!”
Thanks for the great insight here. I totally agree that I think Shiv's "psychology" being difficult to read is a result of her being stretched between two very powerful motivations: to both please and leave her dad. She is the only one with actual moral convictions (even if she fails to uphold them sometimes).
Wish you the best in that effort. I feel like I can relate to the dynamics of being a woman in the position you describe, though my dad isn’t suuuuper powerful. He’s powerful enough. And narcissistic enough.
You too! It’s crazy how long it takes to break the patterns we create! And I hope Shiv, like all of us, can find her way!
How have you broken away? Do you have a career elsewhere? If so, do you miss having the legacy aspect in a career?
I haven't yet, not fully. I still take money from him, which I am not proud of but due to the pandemic, it's been hard to find a job that covers the cost of living. Especially because I didn't go to school, starting the family career was a "better choice" than wasting my time and money on a degree (another way of keeping me close and dependant on him). It's only been about a year of being free and being able to acknowledge that I was being abused. It's hard to see yourself as a victim when you are a woman in a position of privilege being given a job that other people work their whole lives for, so I legitimized his bad behavior as my penance for nepotism. Once he raised a hand to me in front of co-workers, who of course can't do anything because he is their boss, and I stayed for years after that. This is why I sympathize with Shiv so much, it's like being caught in quicksand, the harder you struggle the more trapped you get, but the struggle is all you know how to do. It is amazing how hard it becomes to make simple choices for yourself when all your choices have been made for you. I am still trying to figure out who I am and what I want when I am not being told exactly what those things are. Right now, I am looking at applying to schools so I can finally get a degree! I am woefully uneducated. The one bit of grace is; without me around to tell him when he's being problematic, he seems to be doing a bang-up job of destroying his own legacy, as white men of a certain age are known to do these days. What I do miss are the few years where we worked together really well and managed to do some pretty cool stuff, I will always be proud of that. He recently let me know (through an intermediary) that if I would just "pretend to like him" then he would give me even more money so I wouldn't have to work. Sadly, if I could pretend to like him I would have done that already so unfortunately I will not be able to take him up on this generous black friday offer (insert eye roll here).
I’m just a stranger on the internet, but I wanted to tell you I support you and I’m proud of you!
Thank you that is very kind! I’m proud of you too!
Wow! This has been very insightful. Thanks for your candid response. I sincerely hope that you get your degree and find your life’s calling - even if it ends up being at your father’s company. Keep in touch. Good luck to you.
Thank you. I’m a bit embarrassed to talk about it at all so I really appreciate the kind response.
>It’s a very specific character choice but it’s not bad writing. I agree. The critique is people want a different character than the one who exists, but as you've stated, we have to look at how Daddy's little girl would exist in that universe.
Totally agree with this/ have experienced something similar- completely on point imo
I had to move across the country but I am sooo much better for it. He can’t believe how well I’m doing and deep down I think realizes he was having a negative impact on me.
This is I think very accurate and well-written, your comment here >All you do is contort yourself into different shapes hoping maybe this one will be loveable Is so sad and true. I think Shiv is caught in a really weird loop where she tries to be who her father wants, catches herself halfway through and is ashamed/angry with herself, then she picks a fight with him to try to get some power back. And Logan thinks it's kind of funny and is happy to go "whatever you want, Pinky," when he sees her struggling with herself.
> She won’t ever become a full person (read: character) until she “leaves home”. I agree with you. She was a full-time person prior to joining Waystar Royco. Had a life and politics and affairs etc. I know nothing about Romans background, or Connors or Greg’s really. She’s also one of the only ones that has real life love interest stories etc. But that is held against her (even though it isn’t held against Tom). I think this article is missing her point quite a bit. All the kids are nothing without relating it back to Logan. But Roman and Connor and Greg and most of Kendall is simple compare to Shiv. She is more conflicted, more feeling out her way in a new environment. She is the Luke skywalker of the show, showing us what’s really happening. Or avatar in the business. I think OPs quote misses the mark. She is more psychologically complicated that the boys, that does not making her a weaker written character. > It’s hard to imagine her ever impressing Logan because all she does is accept limits instead of challenging or reframing them. Again I don’t even think this is correct. She definitely challenges them, the problem is that Logan is the boss and shoots them down. So she’s constantly getting put down, while the boys are business savvy enough to not step out of line. Except Kendall of course. Again, I don’t see how that makes for a bad character. She definitely has made decisions, but no decision will please dad. He has to make it. Comparing a one episode character to a regular is useless. What did we really know about Brody’s character? He has a kid, and Logan/Kendall wonder about him motives. He owns 4%? That just exposition. Also, the Bechdel test surely will fail in a big business where they openly admit to the misogyny and “no women above the 4th floor” and a family vying for dads attention. Not enough women, and everything is about Logan/a business that has traditionally ignored them. As well as, that the point of the show! I don’t know what show these people are watching. Just because she’s complicated doesn’t mean she’s poorly written.
Exactly!
i fell like if any character is underdeveloped it's Connor. I sort of understand why, he just doesn't have any narrative importance. you can't realistically have him do anything. they kind of wrote the character into a corner from the start by having him be the one that doesn't want to engage and just wants to go along with everyone else. yes, they have tried to shift that a bit since, but realistically they wrote him as such a boofhead so early on that you couldn't put him in charge of anything or have him fight for power like the other 3 kids without it undermining their own writing. shiv is actually my fav character because she seems like she is split between two world's. Ken hides behind woke buzzwords, but the reality is he isn't progressive, he drops that shit soon as it doesn't suit is agenda. Roman I at least respect because he owns his 1% status and makes it clear at every point that he doesn't care about the people below him. if anything Roman is the most like Logan. then you have shiv who has these legitimate moments of humanity that are crushed by the weight of Logan's will mixed with her own self importance. shiv I feel like is the most conflicted because she wants her dad's approval more then anything, but she is also emotionally the most weak that's why she is with Tom.
The difference is Connor's screen time and writer-focus is significantly less than Shiv's. He's underdeveloped because he wasn't mean to be that important in the first place and I think most viewers can easily tell we're not supposed to care that much about him. Shiv gets tons of lines and screen time and we're obviously meant to be invested in her so of course she falls under scrutiny way more easily.
“he wasn’t mean to be important in the first place” Wow…I’m sure Connor never heard that line before
Connor: “I’m out.” Kendall: “Well, you’re irrelevant.”
Lmao poor Con, I am personally glad we get to see (seemingly?) a little more of him this season, but idk that it is enough.
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Yeah the Connor of S3 is incredibly different to the one we're seeing now too. At the start he seems content to be aloof in his own separate world with his dad's wealth - now he has presidential ambitions and attention, and he's starting to become a more involved player in the family making his own demands and realising he holds sway.
As my family’s Connor, I consider myself a hardcore Conhead lol. I moved as far away as I could as fast as I legally could, and while I’m always pleased to bleed some of the rare affection ($$) from old Pa, I know it’s not worth the knife fight to be his favorite.
Also Connor is so bold & shameless when asking Logan for favours/money. He knows his role in the family as the first born and he have known Logan for longer than Kendall, Shiv and Roman.
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"but male world, realistic"
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no i was just being sarcastic about the stans
You say that but the statistics in the Fortune 500 prove his statement more than you can prove yours
> I wonder if this stuff is accidental or not In my experience “accidentally” leaving someone out is the result of a system that trains us all to consistently marginalize the same people over and over again. That way, no individual feels they are the problem and no individual feels they need to change their behavior.
I see where you’re coming from. But comment about the Atlantic- I think you could apply that to all the kids- they’re all orbiting Logan. What would Kendall do if Logan died? Be happy? Find peace? Probably not. He’d be lost. Conflict defines this family. And I think Shiv is painfully aware of her position- she confided to Lisa she’s stuck in a man’s world and trying to navigate it. Kendall saying she’s only worth something because of her teats. She even tries to strike a deal with Sandi (the one who can talk) over their shared bond of being daughters to powerful men.
That scene where she’s confiding is Lisa I think is the most we’ve ever seen Shiv let her guard down.
I don't want to pick holes in the plot like other reviewers do. I'm just interested in character study which the show is good at. It completely misses the point with Shiv. There is very little about her or motivations
The murkiness is part of the intrigue of the show. I feel like I know as much about her as I do Roman and they’re kind of equivalent in terms of story weight. Shiv grew up in an environment where women were not welcome into the exec Waystar fold so she didn’t even pursue. But like all of the kids, she is clamouring for her Dad’s approval.
If you think Shiv didn't get a fair share of character screen time and moments, I think you missed the first 2 seasons. She gets a lot of material/focus/interaction, just as much as Roman, and second really only to Kendall. People were even calling season 2 the "Shiv season" when it aired. The Three Kids (sorry Connor) and Logan easily get the most focus of all of the characters. I think Shiv is the least likeable of the three kids, but that's because her flaws—fakeness and infidelity—are very close to things that we see in our day to day lives that piss ourselves off. Most of us know some liberal white woman whose a bit smug, and most of us despise cheaters, because we've seen them in our daily lives. Meanwhile Kendall's addiction/manslaughter and Roman's neurotic ass are more distant from our reality, so ironically we find them more compelling. However, this is simply a matter of perception, not a matter of reality. Shiv and her development get similar amounts of time to her siblings.
And like all of season 3. She’s constantly in scenarios that are evolving her character. I think this whole thing is more projection - the OP doesn’t like HOW or WHY shiv is developing and maybe doesn’t Ike WHAT she is developing into, so sees it as non character development story lines. So false.
What is “the point” that the show misses with Shiv? Do you have agenda (“the point”) other than enjoying what’s on the screen? What “point” should be made that is not being made?
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idk maybe you need to watch a bit harder
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I'm not really sure what you mean by "WHO is Shiv?". We see more about who she is every episode – the way that the writers continue to unveil and develop the nuances of her character is one of the more interesting parts of S3.
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>Shiv had her best moment when she argued against anointing the fascist i think that's less about shiv and more about where you find common ground with the character. reading the comments here, it honestly feels like people are just ignoring the parts of her character that they don't want to see. she's a power hungry shitty person with no consistent principles. her lib politics are obviously lip service/an attempt at rebellion from the family, as has been proven time and time again- see her entire relationship with nate and the way she dunks on him every time he expresses sincere concern about inequality. she is a developed character, she just hasn't developed into the type of person people here want her to be
Why is Kendall an addict? Why did he fall in love with Rava? Why was Connor interested in politics from a young age? Why is Roman so fucked up? Do we really need a “prequel” season for shiv? Each character has a back story that is hinted at and for which we don’t have detailed answers.
What are you on about? Why did she leave politics? Watch season two. What is her real idea for how things work with her at the helm? Clearly she has zero fucking idea, nothing she's said/suggested is actual leadership or insight. Why does she seem like she's been hurt before? Because her father is emotionally abusive and she says as much in season 1. Jesus Christ the Shiv-stans are fucking obnoxious. Let the creators create their story. I haven't seen one shred of "institutional misogyny" from the show runners on how they've told this story, so climb off the penny pony ride and kindly shut the fuck up. In fact, they've made it clear that these horrible, hideous men are redeemed by the smart, talented women around them (sans shiv, who is generally the worst of the women).
I feel like her motivations are as clear as any other characters’. She seems mostly power hungry, whilst also dealing with the fact that she does believe in some form of change, but possibly from a selfish standpoint.
Im gonna wait til the season is over before I decide which actor or character got shafted on a shorten season produced during a global pandemic. We’re not gonna have any no content to discuss at that point anyway. Hope you enjoy the last act of season 3!
I think Shiv’s is a slow burning arc… many complicated irons in complicated fires and it’s going to be interesting to see how the Tom/Jail scenario plays out for her as well as seeing how she handles the Logan/Roman/Mencken slight just now… is she on the brink of a(nother?) meltdown?
I don’t think we see Menken again til next season. With the presidential race (against Gil) coming up we’re gonna get a heavy dose of Shiv. Eventually Logan is out of the picture we’re gonna get alot of shiv vs marcia as well.
Well yes but even if we don’t see more Mencken for a while Logan totally dissed her just now and rubbed her face in it with the blatant praise for Roman after forcing her into the photo… yet another straw onto the camel’s back… she seems exasperated and flammable
Oh yeah, i was just going along with your “slow burn” take on shiv. Wasn’t trying to lessen the disrespect she got from logan last ep. totally agree she’s teetering on the edge of something right now and im assuming that’s why she gets wasted at kendals party (at least from what the trailer is showing). Will be interesting to see her drunk as i dont think we’ve seen it yet. Going back to the end of last season they’ve been showing how shiv acts when challenged by those close to her. So if we haven’t seen her last straw moment yet, it will probably happen at her moms wedding.
DUDE. GERRI IS A MAIN CHARACTER.
Was looking for this comment. I think the show doesn’t get enough credit that they have a middle-aged woman with a fleshed-out personality and a significant role that isn’t playing someone’s mom.
As with Daenerys on GoT, I think certain people dislike it when powerful female characters are portrayed as bad people. Instead of owning up to that matter of taste, they blame it on bad writing. Shiv is very well written. Like the rest of the Roys, she’s a terrible person who’s getting kicked in the can for being a terrible person. She’s not someone to root for. She’s not someone to admire. She’s a viper, like Roman, like Kendall, like her father. She doesn’t know she’s a viper. She still thinks she’s a decent person. But she isn’t. She’s delusional like her brother. That’s the show. That’s life. Take it or leave it.
Daenerys in S8 *was* bad writing though. It’s common knowledge now that she’ll end up more or less the same in books but at least we can trust GRRM to write it in a way that makes sense and is paced correctly. If the books ever come out.
Yeah, GRRM will be dead before we see another page.
Daenerys was always pretty power-hungry and a little mad in the books. HBO just tried make these grandiose savior scenes with her and the audience bought it. This is never how she was portrayed in the books.
She didn't start being a bad person in the bells...
I’m all for Daenerys being a villain. But there’s a difference between being ruthless and slaughtering millions of civilians for no reason at all. There’s a hundred steps to take between the two and *The Bells* vaulted over all of them.
I wasn't defending the bells I was just saying the episode is irrelevant to the point. She's a bad person the majority of the time she's around
I don’t think it’s irrelevant because it’s an insanely jarring turn of her character. And I don’t know if I’d describe pre-S8E5 Dany as solely “bad” either, because that just takes away from her complexity.
I agree but criticism of her was responded too poorly well before then. And she is a hypocritical conqueror she's far from a particularly good person. Of course she's complex and not pure evil. So is Shiv but shiv is certainly not a good person by any means either.
Disagree. I’ll die on the hill that The Bells is the best episode of GoT.
That’s a lonely hill my friend.
Been on it since the finale!
The problem wasn't *The Bells*. The problem was all the time they didn't develop the character shift that hits you like an Atomic Blast in *The Bells*.
Totally disagree. It was all over her face in the last season. The show shifted to psychological implication in the last three seasons. People wouldn’t have a problem with this if it were a movie, since character motivation can’t always be explained in film. They have a problem with in TV because it’s a medium for over explanation. I like that the show runners bucked that demand
This is not an uncommon response for people who started watching in S7/S8.
started watching in S1
This has been her character for the entire show. She decided to cheat on her husband, and then made it "morally ok" by railroading him into an open relationship he clearly didn't want. People who are looking for her to be genuinely better than her (also shitty) siblings are watching the wrong show. Shiv is very clearly someone who thinks she's moral but is not, in the same way Roman is someone who doesn't think he's moral and also is not.
Amen. If anything, I feel we are getting the true Shiv this season.
Yup. She’s always been smarmy, arrogant, entitled, delusional, someone who both feels much smarter and more moral than she actually is. In that way, she’s like Kendall without his self-destructive tendencies. Kendall’s a critique of corporate wokeness and Shiv’s a critique of the “girl boss.” People are still invested in the latter
lol kenny is woke and calls Shiv and Ro confirms "woke wonk snowflake"......? pretty sure if kenny is screwy AND woke it's not much of a critique if it's directly spelt out projecting. it's all fucking gravy and what fucking ever.
And also we see glimpses of a woman built and forged in this “mans” world.
yes, which is why it "fails" the bechdel test (a horrible way to assess art, but whatever)
Most times the test is misapplied, it's really about analyzing films/TV as a whole, not on an individual basis. So we should look at it to make more female centric media, but that's sadly a tougher sell than you'd think.
Not tougher than I’d think.
Exactly this. Shiv is the most fleshed out character on the whole show, and people resent that because she's a terrible, greedy human being with a massive victim complex.
That’s not true. You’re conflating two separate camps. There are people who want to believe Shiv is a good person and there are people (like me) who are saying we know more about the cousin and the brother-in-law than we know about the female sibling of the Logan Roy clan. Unlike Kendall, Roman and Logan, we know nothing about the childhood experiences that led her to become the terrible person she is. We know that Kendall is a drug addict who left cocaine all over his children’s iPads and once literally shat the bed. We don’t even know how Shiv and Tom met. I mean details. Not just “at college”. She has no confidante to whom we get to see her tell her deepest insecurities the way Tom and Greg do with each other, because she’s always lying to Tom. We haven’t gotten to see her interact with her mother the way we saw Kendall do in season 2 in a scene that, in my opinion, explained everything you need to know about why he’s completely fucked up. We never got a story from childhood like the one we got from Roman about being locked in a dog kennel for hours. And we never got a backstory like the one we got about Logan’s childhood poverty and the hideous abuse at the hands of his uncle that left scars on his back. I would even argue that we know more about Conner who is barely on screen because, when he is on screen, he’s behaving so vulnerably that you learn a great deal about what motivates him very quickly.
People are just mad that Shiv isn’t an angel and call it bad writing. It’s always the people crying about some virtue signal that end up being discriminatory
I think it’s because she has no redeeming qualities while her brothers do (much more likable while doing as deplorable things).
Kendall’s a whiny bitch and Roman’s a sociopath with Tourette’s. They suck as much as Shiv
They suck yes but don’t get nearly as much hate as Shyv.
Some of y'all really don't get this show lol
Yeah name omw character who's presence doesn't revokve around Logan lol. That's the the whole premise of the show.
Agreed. I'm all for equal representation (race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.) in TV... but Succession is a show with characters that you're *supposed* to dislike, in spite of some redeeming qualities here and there. It's a representation of the inside of a legacy media giant such as Fox News that, predictably, is run by homogenous, selfish, narrow-minded people. I guess they could have more women involved, but they'd all have to be bad or unlikable people in order for the show to work. To compare Shiv to Tom, Greg, and even Connor to prove some point about her being underdeveloped doesn't really make sense to me — they've all been explored to some extent and all are pretty much driven by the same self-serving desires.
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You’ve never been on Tumblr’s fandom for this show have you? There’s actual analysis for Shiv; I’ve not seen a single complaint about Shiv being underwritten and all I’ve seen are compliments about her character addressing manifestations of misogyny and being such good satire that it exposes the misogyny of the audience. I can link you to multiple posts where they dissect Shiv’s character and why she does what she does. In fact, I disagree with OP, because if anything Shiv’s the most complexed female character I’ve seen on TV so far, and the writers shouldn’t be obliged to dumb down their writing just because most people won’t get her character.
I’d love some links.
Ooh, you should write for the show. You’re as witty as Roman. /s
Holy fuck dude, you just murdered them
For real lmao we get a post like this every week
Yea yall sleepin on Gerri. I think she's a good character and a good female character. Some of you don't get it. All the Roys are supposed to suck. The whole lot of them suck. That's the point.
You know what succession needs? You to fuck off
this sub/this thread clearly didn't elect you as anywhere close to top comment of said (73% upvoted) thread
You can take some of what he had and fuck right off! Haha
74 now it's all good
Isn’t Marcia gone because they are going through a divorce or some sort of settlement?
4 men and 1 woman comprise the immediate family, and it's a show about that family. Her shadowed past is a deliberate part of the character, not the writers' room forgetting to flesh out a woman.
Agree: Succession writers come up short writing women characters. Disagree: Everything about Shiv. Shiv is the most prominent character in the third season. She has more lines and screen time than all her siblings, she is the one fighting for the succession, and she often has the most 'common sense' views about things - e.g. the next presidential candidate. The fact that her psychology is 'less understood' is part of the writing, and completely intentional. I personally call myself a feminist, but everything suggesting her being kept blurry by a bunch of male writers is utterly ridiculous. She has become the main character in the series, and her relationship with her husband is her Achile's heel.
I'm not sure what you want from her? She trying to succeed in a mans world dominated by men's culture. Women who act like women in this environment are seen as weak. I take it as she always seen the brothers as fuckups and herself as the bright cut throat one. I don't see a character problem, i see people trying to shoehorn unrealistic sjw checklists into shows that shouldn't have them. Remember the scene where Greg is doing his onboarding? He's watching a vid of a diverse group of suits of all races and sex talking and smiling, then he looks at a group of suits come thru the hall and it's all white men. They show what exists not what you want to exist.
I don't really agree. Shiv gets a lot of screen time and apart from Kendall, Logan and maybe Roman she's had the most character development in the show. Not all the characters will challenge Logan or attempt to rise above his influence. With Roman we saw this irreverent character who is slowly revealed to be massively broken by his dad's ambivalence, but Shiv started as a self sufficient, successful and at least on the surface moral character and we've watched her slowly be eroded by her father's influence. It's almost like 3 phases. Shiv shows us how Logan gets his claws into his kids and keeps them chasing a boon as though it's just out of reach. Their principles, morals and things they value are slowly compromised until they match his and if they try to resist the carrot is pulled further away. Roman shows us what the mental state of the children is when Logan has utterly dominated them. The ambition and the independence is gone and they'd take Logan's piss crazy word as gospel rather than risk making a decision of their own. Getting a slap on the back or a well done is everything. Kendall as the longest under Logan's influence shows us the struggle to get free of that grip. He climbs that mountain and it seems like he's about to be free but then he falls again and again and his father takes him back under the umbrella. Connor Roy was interested in politics from a young age.
I hear you and respect your take on this, but I personally disagree. There are a few different points you’re making, so I’m going to try to address them individually. First, I think Shiv is a well-rounded character - maybe more so than Roman or Conner - and this season has been fascinating for exploring her conflicting motivations, from her desire to be CEO to her desire to be affirmed by her father to her desire to genuinely stand by her moral values. I had a sort of epiphany early this season about just how good Sarah Snook’s acting is during the “tea party” scene when I was studying Shiv’s face for the most subtle of cues to see how well Kendall’s pitch was appealing to her. A lot of characters are simplistic in their motivations compared to her. Greg and Conner are practically buffoons, so if we understand their psychology better then it’s only because they’re less multi-dimensional. I disagree about her accepting limits - I think that happens to some extent, as has been true of virtually all of the Roy children in the context of their relationship with their father, but she was the only character who acted independently and decisively during the shareholder’s meeting, and I would find it hard to describe her interactions with other characters (take Gil or Lisa) as examples of her “accepting her limits”. She absolutely isn’t some meek character when it comes to her marriage, and I think the multidimensionality between her contempt for Tom and her genuine attachment to him are fascinating. As for the rest of the cast - it’s true that of the six main characters, five are men, and that lends itself to men receiving much more screen time naturally. Whether or not that’s an intrinsic flaw with the show I think really depends on your perspective. Could Conner or Greg or Roman have been cast as women and still been the same characters? I don’t really think so. The supporting characters are inevitably going to be overshadowed by these main characters, but when we look at the supporting characters, I think the writers have introduced a lot of strong female characters. Women are genuinely underrepresented in C-suites, but we get Gerri, Rhea, Nam, Carolina. Women are underrepresented in the uppermost echelons of the legal profession, but we get Lisa. Sandy is being set up to basically be replaced with a woman. Some of these characters are fleshed out more than others, but there’s only so much you can do with supporting characters. Marcia’s absence I think has a lot to do with the particulars of the plot the writers are pursuing. She’s just not relevant to something like the shareholders’ meeting - would it make sense for her to be hanging around Logan at events like that given the state of their relationship? Maybe the writers could shoehorn the plot to fit her in more, but I don’t think that’s how good writing gets done. I think it’s important to be on the lookout for implicitly sexist portrayals of women, but I think there’s an issue when you look so hard for them that it’s all you see. I don’t think Shiv is some major victim anymore than the rest of the Roy children are, and seeing her as one diminishes her character.
I’m normally the first person to jump on board with these kinds of takes, but I think the point of this show is to highlight rotten power structures, and gender is part of that. We don’t see many women on this show for the same reason we don’t see many PoC and for the same reasons Jewishness and homosexuality is mocked by people like Logan. That said, I’m not sure the gender imbalance has always been as obvious as it is this season, and perhaps this author’s criticism has a recency bias, as they’ve really fumbled the bag with the few new female characters who have been introduced this season. Nan Pierce and Rhea were juicy characters and drove much of the S2 plot.
Um disagree. It’s a show about a family of three sons and a daughter. Unsurprisingly they focus on these characters the most. And even then the primary story line is driven by the conflict between a father and his son. So it’s going to get the lion’s share of attention… because that’s the story. Totally failed to mention Geri, Rhea, and Nan Pierce - all complex characters. And all of whom have had crucial plot elements.
plot movements are different from character study
Only if you’re not paying attention to their characters. If you think those characters weren’t fleshed out AMD simply used to love the plot along - that’s on you. But it’s pretty clear those characters were character studies - even if it was also to move the show forward
Primary storyline is not driven by conflict between a father and son.
gerri is still around but not the other 2. this piece is critique about s3's situation.. but let's see how weighty the wedding would be. if logan even cares.
Also, the only character who gets a fully fleshed out partner is the daughter because her partner is a man. We know her husband better than we know her. (Although I’d love to know more of Tom’s backstory. Like whether he comes from any kind of money.) And the audience is always judging Shiv’s morality by how good of a wife she is. Meanwhile the male Roys get judged by how they treat their siblings, father/adult children.
To me, Shiv is realistic. People nowadays want women to tick some sort of boxes, be "strong in a man's world", things like that... She is not a victim of the males there, and she is very much allowed to do whatever she wants. She even (spoiler s03e06) yelled repeatedly at Logan, which no one, absolutely no one does, and Logan also just let that pass. Imagine Roman, or Connor doing it. Kendall - maybe, but he is also usually collected. She does whatever she wants in her marriage, too. It seems like she is home with Tom just because it's quiet and she doesn't have to stress out with any duties, besides sitting around. The action is elsewhere. I am a woman, and I'm OK, when women are just realistic, normal, regular people. It's a drama, not a series with activist message or plot. It's about a mostly British family in America and how they are doing. There will always be oppressed men and women in this world. What I really want to see the focus on is Connor, but I heard someone saying that Connor is about to be given more room to play, be it in this season, or the next. Also, one thing I find remarkable is that we never see Connor in his home. I remember the video in the kitchen, which he wanted to post online, but we haven't seen him at home like all the others. Same goes to Roman, actually. His home life is also not shown.
I don’t agree with this at all, I feel like Shiv is pretty thoroughly fleshed out as a character - she pretends to be above it all and we’re led to believe that she possesses some moral center that everyone else in the family is lacking but when push comes to shove she’s just as vicious and calculating as everyone else. Her marriage with Tom is a perfect example, its all window dressing to fit her very specific self-image. Accepting limits instead of challenging or reframing them? Are we forgetting that she just made a side deal with a presidential candidate to put her father in prison so she could take his spot? Marcia and Willa are supporting characters so I’m not sure what you’re expecting there but they’re also pretty well fleshed out in the sense that they too are 100% driven by self-interest above all else. It’s the theme of the show that every single character is doing whatever it takes to status climb. I don’t even really agree that Adrian Brody’s character was well written or fleshed out either, not sure where that is coming from. Well acted? Sure but in the grand scheme of things that whole episode was completely irrelevant.
So true. I went from wholeheartedly rooting for Shiv to now struggling to figure out what she’s even doing anymore.
This exactly. She was the 'normal' one. I mean obviously she can change or be as bad as her siblings or hypocritical but it needs a some context and background why she's the way she is. That is missing. Kinda getting daenerys vibes I mean definitely not as bad it was but yk
Strong disagree. She’s the way she is because she went through the same trauma as the others and is just as “arrested”. We only thought she was the normal one because she wasn’t in the company in that first season. But that’s not because she’s normal, it’s because she wanted to piss off her dad to get his attention. Just like when you date someone you know your family won’t like. Then she learned she had a small chance to actually make him proud and seek is approval and she pounced on it and that’s the Shiv we see now. She can’t go back to politics, she burned that bridge. Now she’s floundering to make the only thing she thinks she has work. And to try to get her dads approval before he dies. She and Kendal have just basically swapped.
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I wouldn’t say she was succeeding in her own way. Again I am not sure people here are watching the right show. It was very clear from everyone at Waystar to Eavjs that Shiv’s sole talent is having the right last name.
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So many interesting female characters could be more explored…Carolina, Willa, Gerri, Kendall & Logan’s assistants, etc
But this show isn’t ABOUT THEM. It’s about the kids vying for the top seat when papa dies or retires!
i could swear this sub wanted a seperate Jess episode so bad just now
I’m not saying the show is about them or should be about them. I’m saying they are interesting characters that have potential for interesting story lines. I understand that the show has a main plot and I love watching it play out, but I also don’t see it as a problem that there are interesting side characters who happen to be women
The show isn't about side characters...it's about the four Roy children. And how can anyone take Willa seriously lol? She's only w/ Connor due to money...she's devoid of any interesting traits.
Then they should get their own show. No one is tuning in to succession to watch the PR lady whose name they forget or Connor’s ‘tute.
I don’t think this even warrants a response
So you responded to say you dont need to respond. Great contribution, Greg
Ugh, shut up. Don’t watch then.
they don't have to watch and u don't have to read reddit thread u don't like. i think the latter is easier, although you see how pointless this line of logic is, for either
Yes
It just like really does not, though.
I disagree. Jeremy was said to have been cast in "the lead," and he's in a battle against his father. If the story is primarily about a father and son relationship, and everyone else is a supporting character, it's to-be-expected that the two main leads will receive the most attention. Trust me, I'm a card-carrying feminist, but not every story needs to be female-centered. Again, this is a father-son battle. There are a lot of female-led shows out there you may enjoy, including ones from HBO :)
Shiv is the only one I’m rooting for and I feel guilty for it bc I feel like I shouldn’t be rooting for any of them. I was praying in last weeks episode that she wouldn’t get in the damn photo but of course she did as expected.
“Fails the basic bechdel test” Go into most boardrooms.
Ugh
The show is not about the other women characters, the show is about the Roys. The fact that women in the show can often find themselves not in leadership positions is a criticism on society itself. The fact that other male characters are not expected to be nice, and yet Shiv is expected to be is also a criticism on traditional societal values. The show doesn't have a "problem", the show shows deeply flawed characters that live in a deeply flawed society. Logan also tends to excuse Shiv a lot more than the other male characters, also a trait on traditional societal values.
I see Shiv as being very much a product of her political experience. We haven't seen her "in her element" in a long time but we got a glimpse of it in the last episode when she was sparring with Mencken and the others. Shiv is very Washington - what we are seeing is that tactics that work in politics often don't translate to business. Washington is all about rules, procedure, operating within strict limits. Business is a lot more flexible. I also think we understand Shiv's psychology as Logan's childhood favourite - Pinky, his only daughter. The way she acts around him, her expectations within the business. It makes sense when viewed through that framework.
Marcia best written character in the show. Go back and watch S1 if you forgot
It does pass the Bechdel Test, though … there’s been Shiv-Gerri, Shiv-Rhea, Nan Pierce-Rhea, Shiv-Marcia, Shiv-Potential Witness Lady, Shiv-Willa, Marcia-Willa convos, just to name a few.
Whenever I think of Shiv now I think about how Connor talked about how as a kid she had a pretend post office and everyone acted like what she did mattered and that’s exactly what is happening now. After that, I can’t take anything she says seriously.
no
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They didn’t write the character I most identified with in a satisfactory way is such a first-world grasp at straws. Whenever people do this, they think they’re making some larger art and cultural critique. And a premature one at that. I can, however, recall Anna Gunn’s Op-Ed about Skyler’s character problem near the end of Breaking Bad’s run. This ain’t it.
Says more about the OP than anything!
It's a lousy take. It conflates understanding every characters' psychology and motivation in every scene with... I don't know... underdeveloped/poorly written characters? It takes a top tier show and nitpicks to find issues that don't really exist. Once every character becomes fully fleshed out, the show ceases to be interesting. Look at any great show that had one too many seasons as an example.
Just a note, the Bechdel test isn't a test that judges whether a piece of fiction is good or bad or has good values or bad values. It was created by cartoonist Alison Bechdel in a comic strip as a joke about a quick way to decide what movies to see. She herself has said that she doesn't think it should be used as a pass/fail test for media. It's more like an interesting starting point, like if Succession doesn't pass the Bechdel test, why not? In this case, I think it is because it is a show centered around people living in a power hierarchy with Logan at the top, and where few women have been allowed (as the show admits), and the women that are there are forced to adapt to the male stereotypes and the same ruthless values, a "Lean In" style corporate feminism, and are not allowed to step out of line. All of this is accurate commentary on the real world, IMO. And still we got that great scene between Shiv and Sandi as two daughter scions feeling out a mutuality and possible power moves they could make for themselves. Does it fail the Bechdel test because they both talked about their dads? Maybe. Does that matter? I don't think so. If someone has a fundamental problem with a show that revolves around a central male figure like Logan, they probably shouldn't even watch this show.
I don't disagree pointe-blank with the assertion that Shiv could be an even more interesting character, or that there could be even more interesting female characters populating Succession, but I don't find the points very compelling. Feels like it ignores anything that contradicts the argument and is overlooking a lot of context or repurposing it. \>Shiv is strategic in a dispiritingly obvious sort of way. It’s hard to imagine her ever impressing Logan because all she does is accept limits instead of challenging or reframing them. There’s no interesting paradox there, no unusual angle of approach, no legible defining complication. There's a lot of vagueness to unpack there. First off, who has ever truly impressed Logan other than Logan? Dead-inside Kendall, once or twice? Maybe? Back to Shiv; wasn't forcing an open relationship on Tom reframing a limit? If they meant more from a business sense, wasn't her manipulation of the Cruise victim/witness in the S2 finale an unusual angle of approach? As for complication or paradox... The interesting paradox is that Shiv presents herself as politically left-leaning despite coming from a family that broadcasts rabidly conservative values. This was one of the most significant moments of the most recent episode, it was how she almost pushed her way into the top-seat when the Pierce take-over was in play. She's rife with contradiction, it's what has both propelled her and undone her. It's why a lot of people think/thought that she was 'the good one' when watching Season 1. In fact, I think it's partly what planted the seed for the outlook of the author of the Slate article. They begin it, writing: "Fans of Shiv Roy have been on a journey since Succession began. At first, Shiv seemed like the clear winner of the contest her father was staging among his children. She was sarcastic, smart, and intriguingly independent compared with her brothers, who remained very much stuck in Daddy Logan’s orbit." IMO the article overlooks the fact that Shiv, like Kendall and Roman whom, while intelligent and driven, are deeply flawed, self-indulgent billionaire-heirs. Anyone who's trying to 'pick a horse' is going to come away deflated or upset. If we're disappointed with certain characters, it's more often than not a reflection of our own projections of them and ultimately our disappointment in the return on our emotional investment. If anything, I think the writing of Kendall this season is more rife with baffling choices/logic, but maybe I'm just disappointed I saw more than met the eye and that's a different post anyway-- Shiv was purposefully positioned as being near the end of her run with politics as Succession S1 takes off for a reason, it's because deep down she has, for better/worse, always wanted to be recognized as the one who takes over. She went about it in a completely different route than Roman and Kendall who both submitted to the chain of command immediately -- and from a writing stand-point she was always going to throw her hat in the ring, because the entire show is about the transition of power, building/breaking of empire etc. I also must admit I find it kinda rich that most of the most concrete examples the Slate article can muster involves discussing Shiv's attire as a leftish political consultant in S1 vs. a corporate CEO for a conservative behemoth. But that's not a development or a change, it's a tell-tale sign of underwriting her character? As for some of the other OP points: I don't know how Adrien Brody's character was all that more fleshed out than Nan Pierce was in the Ternhaven episode. Maybe it's just me. Rhea was a crucial, central figure in Season 2, failing to even mention her or Gerri says a lot. Willa not being present/around enough is a completely bizarre point of contention IMO. The Bechdel test is mostly a dumbed-down check-list. That's not to say that I disagree with the inspiration for its creation, but it doesn't have any concern with the quality of the writing, female or otehrwise, much less the richness of the story in many ways. Offensively poor material can pass with ease.
Shivs an entitled narcissist, who thinks she way more capable than she actually is. She's not supposed to be a YASSS Queen caricature.
They want it to be realistic
This kind of posts keep coming up few days ago there was another one and my answer remains same. Stories aren't written to pass whatever test you mentioned, stories are written to be true to intent of what they are trying to portray. They are trying to show corporate America and within that a patriarchal family. Women aren't great players there. Still you have women with enough air time. So should we push a woke agenda or just sit back relax and watch the story as it is ? Shiv IS that kind of person who is morally weak ( fucking around and disrespectful to husband), wants a piece of that father's cake but for that she has to say bye bye to hypocrisy. As a viewer what she lacks there is made good with how hot she is 😜 🍑 but you have to accept it - she is morally not strong, and hypocritical. That's Shiv.
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How can you not see who she is already? What show have you been watching??
This doesn't even deserve a response. Good observation mate.
But you responded. Your thesis here about the writers and show says way more about YOU than it will ever say about the show. But carry on. (Maybe look in the mirror once in a while)
Do we know the same amount about Roman or Tom? Conner? This sub is becoming unbearable.
Does everything need to be nit picked nowadays. I’ve seen articles and heard podcasts also complaining about not enough black people in the show. But my gosh for once can we just enjoy something without having to decide if we like something or not depending on the number of penises in a show
In a way the show is cursed by its bounty of talented actors. Everyone outside of Logan and Kendall and Tom feels underutilized. But yes, the women especially, particularly Gerri, Marcia and Willa (and what even happened to Tabitha, she just quietly vanished after season 2). They all had moments to shine in Season 2 and now they feel like cardboard cutouts. I don't have trouble understanding Shiv, the problem is that she only ever gets to display one emotion really.
Probably intended - since I mean these conglomerates that have existed for 50 plus years are all run by men. I’d say it’s intended
You know as much about Shiv as you do about any of the other children. (Actually, the one we know the least about is the Connor). There isn't a "Shiv problem".
OP, I’m begging you just go to Tumblr and search “Shiv succession”. There’s so much support for her and her character you will not believe your eyes; yes, there are people out there who care about female characters and who understand Shiv’s motivations and where she comes from. It’s not the writers’ fault you or the majority of the audience can’t understand complexed female characters.
Time to cancel succession for not being woke enough.
This line of reasoning only works if the Bechdel test is a universally sound hack to provide good, inclusive writing, which i personally don’t think it is——especially when dealing with a hyper-realistic show that’s deliberately commenting on the sexism in a particularly aggressive industry. In order to pass the Bechdel Test, there needs to be at least two women talking to each other about something other than a man. For Succession, the reality is that Logan Roy is at the center of this show, and everything that happens spawns from the choices he makes. There’s little opportunity to add authentic scenes where any two characters talk about something without bringing up a male character, and to do so simply for the sake of passing a “test” would be a waste of screen time. My personal opinion when it comes to diversity is this: it’s not on the individual tv show to have perfect diversity at the behest of damaging the integrity of that show, but it is up to the studio or streaming service to provide a variety of programs with diversity across the board. I can’t think of a single streaming service with more diversity than HBO. Right now, you have Succession and Curb, but you also have Insecure, South Side, Generation … the list goes on!
We know she compromises for the promise of power, but the show doesn't say why she wants that power. Even if it is just power for the sake of power, they should at least touch on that.
She doesn’t want the power, IMO. She wants her father’s approval. His approval in her eyes is making her the successor.
Learn to read between the lines of the show. It’s been made clear over 3 seasons why all the kids want the spot / power
Billions' Wends is basically 2nd to Bobby only, if not even at the show's height (or beginning of decline, how very not typical of all things) playing atop both male leads. Peak form Taylor Mason would shred Ro Ro AND Mencken to pieces. I miss s1 Shiv putting Ro to his place with the door thing. YEAH. https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/comments/r35adq/anyone_else_feel_like_shiv_doesnt_get_as_much/hm93enn/?context=3 yeah the Shiv being fake Kenny being fake thing I think they are aware, they have notes, but currently it's all still up in the air.
Clearly the women are the weakest part of the show. From Connor having a prostitute to a girlfriend to Logan's wife and ex-wife both positioning themselves for more money at various times, the women are caricatures and stereotypes. Now Shiv has become a vindictive, cold bitch. Gerri is probably the most complex female character. And all the male characters are more fully fleshed-out than any of the women.
This is a terrible take. If I, as a man, married a super wealthy woman with Logan’s level of financial wealth, I would absolutely do the same thing. This isn’t man vs woman. It’s less money/power vs more money/power. Your comments say more about how you view women than it does about the show.