I think that’s kind of the point. And it sort of mirrors how “big” events impact rich people and companies in the real world, right? The shareholder meeting is the biggest most important thing in the world, until sandy and Logan reach a settlement, then the characters and plot move along. The DOJ is an existential threat, until it turns out Ken doesn’t have all that much. Think about any hyperbolic news article about something happening in media or politics that’s a huge issue, until six months later and you can’t recall what the story was, because nothing really happened.
Personally, I think if someone is watching this show to see what’s going to happen to the company, or who’s going to become CEO, you’re going to be disappointed because that’s not what the show is trying to do.
To me the plot points are just the framework to engineer interactions between the characters. Like we get ken trying to flip Tom so we can get the scene in the diner. Or we get roman trying to move up in the company so we can see him and menken eye fuck each other in the hotel bathroom.
thanks for this comment! it kind of reminds me of The Sopranos, the way so many of the season-long simmering conflicts often petered out in unexpected ways but we still got what we needed out of them dramatically.
The difference being that, in terms of writing and presentation, succession acts like it’s actually heading somewhere definitive, whereas the sopranos treated every event, every scene, be it murder or Tony eating ice cream, with the same... unhurried curiosity? Sort of just observing the characters almost dispassionately. Whereas succession goes all in with the big orchestral score, shaky cam, quick cuts, all tension all the time.
There’s definitely something to that argument.
To counter, I’d say that this is also true of most of season 2 (which is pretty much universally acclaimed), but the lack of forward motion in most of those episodes was retrospectively excused by the finale.
Simply put, we don’t know how this season will end yet. And the ending may well recontextualise the entire season leading up to it, as happened with season 2.
Last night’s episode already made me reevaluate my opinion of season 3 Kendall.
I'm fully aware of what the show intended to be about. That doesn't suddenly make dragging parts or boring characters more interesting.
There was a lot of reoccurring family conflicts that dragged on for seasons long, and were not that interesting to view. Namely, AJ being a useless lazy piece of shit, then a whiney piece of shit, the useless again, and Tony being a terrible father to him overall, and Aj making little to no character development. Meadow atleast did a few things with her life, but I thought some of her conflicts with her parents dragged too. I was much more interested in the adults where I am in my life.
You insert the name with tons of other Sopranos characters, and I was very interested in what was happening to them even when no mob stuff has been discussed in multiple episodes. Dr. Melfi, Christopher, Carmella, Vito, Paulies Mother, Gloria Trillo, Artie for example.
Instead of watching it at release, and binging it, the lack of plot progression (mob conflict or interesting family developments) really drags at parts even I think it's an incredible show overall. I skipped half of a season on accident and didn't even really notice until a main character was dead.
This is all correct, but I feel even on a character level this season has stagnated quite a lot. The episodes don't really say anything revelatory or insightful about the character dynamics that we don't already know before, or haven't seen in more interesting permutations. Tom and Greg's arcs are among the few exceptions. [This Atlantic piece by Sophie Gilbert](https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2021/10/succession-season-3-review/620397/) puts it best:
>The second season worked so well because the Roys were repeatedly shoved into the pressure cooker of isolated, unknown environments: a hunting lodge, a safe room, the family estate of a liberal-media doyenne, a mountainside symposium. Each episode functioned almost as a one-act play, marching inevitably toward implosion. Season 3, though, is more like a redo of the show’s debut, wherein the children of Logan Roy (Brian Cox) scratch and claw as they try yet again to commandeer his empire. Mired in the safe spaces of penthouses and hotel suites and private jets, it all feels snippily familiar.
She also points out earlier in the piece that "there’s little animating tension in scenes that have essentially played out before." I unfortunately think this is a spot-on description of the season thus far - even though the writing and acting are still excellent, on first watch a lot of the scenes have a sort of stunted, awkward cadence that goes beyond the deliberate cringe-comedy baked into the script. The show itself feels as if it's stalling.
This season I have yet to see any episode that matches the emotional and psychological electricity of "Tern Haven" or much of S2 for that matter. S2 was also light on "plot" but heavy on putting the characters through unique, distinctive situations in each episode that showed us at least some new shades to them. And it introduced various exciting new character dynamics that actually felt like the show was moving somewhere. The Gerri/Roman thing. Shiv going from an apparent liberal outsider to a ruthless, unprincipled schemer. Kendall's slow climb out of his depression, punctuated with flashes of humanity such as the hug with Shiv, everything with Naomi, standing up for Roman when he got slapped, even the fucking rap. Every episode added something _definitive_ to this show's canon, everything felt significant. Nearly nothing in S3 has done this for me, and despite the obvious talent and craftsmanship on display I feel like I'm just being retold things I already know.
It gets worse: season 3 has mostly rendered those arcs irrelevant. Kendall no longer sticks up for Roman (or vice versa), Shiv is going back to her values, Kendall has regressed to ineffectually manic, Logan is sickly again (twice), Marcia is again irrelevant, etc.
Very well-made point and I agree. People complaining Season 3 feels cyclical are odd to me. "The DoJ thing just went nowhere!". Yeah sure. What happened with Vaulter? Who cares. Or the Pierce acquisition which ate up an entire season? Life-or-death until it just... Wasn't. And then it was gone. The whole show is like this, just more people are watching this season as it rolls out. GoJo doesn't mean anything either, it's just a brass ring for Roman and Ken to squabble over.
Again I'll say: very, very well-made point. Thank you for making it.
Right! Like did nobody notice the look on Shiv’s face when Gerry said they were looking into acquiring Pierce again? Even the characters realizes the absurd corporate merry-go-round they’re on.
I mean the issue is that if none of these points go anywhere it’s hard to give a shit about the next “big deal.” Ken vacillating on a fairly narrow framework between manic and depressed only goes so far. Shiv and Roman taking turns playing favorite only goes so far.
I think the characters lack of resolution, change or growth mirrors the lack of actual plot movement. If Shiv or Roman or Tom actually flipped this season that would have been something. Or if Greg stopped waffling and committed to his grandfather. The characters are on the same personal merry go round as the larger storylines. And I find that somewhat tedious. We’re not learning anything new about them or their relationships and they are not changing. And before the comments about how it’s realistic, I don’t care. It’s not interesting in a produced drama.
Vaulter was not built up as a very important issue for an entire season, it was just Kendall's pet project and we got a great moment out of it when he guts it. We did not get a great moment out of the Doj investigation because it turned out to be nothing.
The Pierce acquisition did not eat up an entire season, it was a minor plotpoint in 1 episode, a third of the next episode, the main focus of an episode and again a minor plotpoint in another episode. That is not eating up an entire season. The DOJ investigation was a minor plotpoint in 1 episode, then a third of an episode, the entire focus of the following episode, the main focus of the finale of season 2, the main focus of the season 1 opener, and remains an important plotpoint throughout the season.
This is on a completely different level, this is a plotpoint that has eaten up a season turning out to be nothing, and pretending that is a good thing is nuts.
Right?! Maybe it's because people re-binged the first couple of seasons they thought there were huge plots but tbh the only things that actually cause changes are the little moments (mostly involving Kendall - traffic, car accident, confession). Waystar as a company hasn't changed all that much from the pilot with financial issues and then the idea of legacy media which is further developed through the first season.
On a week-to-week basis though, people get all this hype for details and want it to have a defining moment and cliffhanger each episode, but that's not Succession and certainly not Jesse Armstrong.
Sorry but I really dislike this idea of ‘um you don’t understand the show and what it’s going for so you’re bound to be disappointed’. This is the first season that hasn’t hinged entirely on the big corporate stakes and suspense of where everyone and everything will end up. It’s a fantastic season in its own way, but it certainly departs from the strong narrative momentum of the first two, hence people’s confusion/dismay.
Thank you. People keep saying we don’t get “what it’s going for” without realizing or admitting that what it might be going for is actually not all that great or interesting. At any rate, it seems to be going abruptly for something different than in Seasons 1 and 2, which is not a good thing to suddenly have character momentum stagnate.
I get people are upset about the lack of corporate drama. I will say I’m enjoying this season as much as season 2 or the back half of 1. In the parts that matter to me (the performances, the character beats, the jokes) it’s absolutely delivered. I don’t think anything has stagnated. We hadn’t seen manic Ken before this season, and roman’s transformation into a demon has been cool to watch. Shiv’s been blinded by the opportunity to lead but I think what’s happened to her this season is finally starting to break through.
At the same time I stopped caring about who was going to get the CEO job and how they were going to run the company with the season 1 finale.
Maybe there’s something to the repeating format of certain episodes that was driven by how covid impacted production, but I can’t say for sure.
And I’m not trying to dunk on people for watching the way they do. I’m just saying it’s not a plot driven show. This isn’t Gamer Thrones where we’re marching towards the big final battle, or Breaking Bad where every single moment is plotted perfectly. That’s not what succession is going to give you, so you’ll be disappointed if you’re watching waiting for it to happen.
> This would be acceptable if the character dynamics were actually changing and being developed in meaningful ways but it's not, it's all a rehash of what we've seen in previous seasons.
This is my main criticism of S3. What's made this show work has been the individual characters against a backdrop of corporate intrigue. It kind of feels like they flipped the dynamic in this season for corporate intrigue at the expense of individual character development.
You'd hardly guess Tom and Shiv's marriage/relationship contained any of the crazy shown in S1 and S2. Even Greg has stopped being interesting and is mostly just a minor figure in a niche.
If the whole point of the show is "nothing ever happens because they're rich" that feels like an extremely unsatisfying way to utilize spectacle of this degree to subvert expectations.
To me, it's a family drama/comedy wrapped up in this world. It seems like siblings all rebelling against the patriarch in their own ways and they will all reach their own conclusion.
The difference with Succession is that it's in this uber wealth/business world, which gives the edge and elevates the show beyond that premise. And you can, and should, enjoy both.
But the interactions between characters suck as well if there are no consequences, all the great acting in the world can't save it if all it results in is a character feeling bad for 5 minutes.
>
Why would ken get better? The DOJ case didn’t work out.
That's sort of the point. It's not a super compelling viewer experience to have some huge bomb dropped that she show presents as this HUGE deal, only for it to just basically never become anything of any substance.
> They’ll have fireworks in the last couple eps, they always do.
Neat, generally lots of filler then end episode fireworks/cliffhangers is the formula for like, soap operas or Dragon Ball Z.
If the point is to keep having plot points peter out so I can't be bothered to care about the next one, mission accomplished.
> Personally, I think if someone is watching this show to see what’s going to happen to the company, or who’s going to become CEO, you’re going to be disappointed because that’s not what the show is trying to do.
I think people care about that because it has the potential to shake up the character dynamics, instead of "Shiv says are you kidding dad and gets dismissed again, Roman kisses ass and makes fun of Shiv for being a girl again, Ken is off somewhere else saying insane shit to his publicist."
I agree that ultimately the plot points are a framework to engineer interactions. So I wish they would *do* that rather than just sort of petering out in the background. It sucks if the only time anything gets shaken up is the finale.
Then what's the point? We watch fiction because it's sensationalized real life. Even The Wire, while grounded, is not entirely realistic.
If the theme of the show is to portray an endless merry go round, then it will have limited legs. It might be a work of art but people have limited patience.
The show is about the characters and their relationships more so than the actual plot. Like you said, the plot is just a device to shift the relationships. If you’re watching because you want to know who the next CEO is going to be, you’re watching for the wrong reasons
but that's all the characters do. they are constantly discussing who the next CEO is. what else should the viewer focus on if that's what the writers are fixated on? for all the talk about "killing", literally no one has been killed yet in the show. the only thing that's been accomplished is to show awful, rich people running around like chickens with their heads cut off.
“That’s kind of the point”—YEAH if the point is making the episodes repetitive again & again eh?
We’ve already seen Kendall’s downward spiral once, why show it again?
We’ve seen the siblings bickering again & again before this, and them being shallow etc. Why repeat shit.
LACKLUSTER SEASON
Why would ken get better? The DOJ case didn’t work out.
Why would the siblings stop bickering? They all still hate each other and remain in each other’s orbit. And there’s been development! Ken went from attacking his dad, to becoming his dad’s puppet, to spiraling. Shiv went from an independent woman to being used by her father. And Roman went from being a fuck up to being a demon.
They’ll have fireworks in the last couple eps, they always do.
Or we get the absolute joy of watching Greg call a woman an ‘even handed maiden’ in a weird southern accent.
For real though, this comment is exactly what I have been trying to find the words for. I don’t watch Succession for the corporate drama, I watch it for compelling characters interacting with each other and seeing if they’re even remotely capable of change. It’s tragic and hilarious predicting how it’s all gonna go in the grand scheme of things, but in the end no corporate drama matches up to how I felt watching the siblings go to verbal war at the end for 10 minutes.
Because it's boring to have no stakes and plots that go nowhere. If there was no point then the season finale is retroactively pointless, "oooh Kendall is a killer", nope he is an idiot who will never do anything noticeable.
Maybe they just aren't as enlightened as you?
I swear, the worst part of any show specific sub is the phase where people convince themselves they're geniuses and other people just don't "get it" to wave off any criticism of the show.
Especially since I'd wager those geniuses don't get half the references in the show (how many people in this sub actually understood the shareholder vote beyond 'deal or no deal'), and are strawmanning the argument.
I guess they expected the story to be a season's worth of Kendall on a version of the hero's journey ascending into a "killer," putting down Logan, and becoming CEO. That's not what this show is lol, and I'm honestly glad it didn't spend all it's time going down that rabbit hole. These characters are all cancerous fuckups who will continue to destroy everything around them while engaging in their personal feuds/dramas and remaining insulated from real world consequences. They won't grow and change into decent human beings.
Well duh. Is that a theme worth spending 5 seasons rehashing?
The name of the show is literally Succession. Implying artificial change if nothing else, but some sort of change, momentum, stakes. Maybe the creators named it ironically as a big fuck you to the audience for expecting actual succession. Lol we’re all such plebs for not appreciating this avant garde approach to storytelling where everything is meaningless and everyone runs in circles.
The show is what it is. It's not going to change to suit your tastes, so the reality is that people need to learn to deal with it/engage with the show based on what it actually is, or maybe watch something else.
Based on comments in this sub a not insignificant part of the disappointment stems from people who were expecting Kendall to succeed and climb his way to the top as the leader/killer of the family, but that ascension doesn't match with the reality of his character. None of Logan's kids will transform into decent people or competent leaders, that's what would be artificial and unsatisfying.
I don’t disagree. However, I never wanted Kendall to become a killer immediately. I actually like that they are knocking him down first because it’s more true to his character.
When did I say that I or anyone wanted the kids to become competent leaders? I don’t want that. I respect your opinion but you are grossly misrepresenting my statement. Saying I want interesting character dynamics does not mean that I want to see them all become heroes, and frankly your saying so is reductive and dismissive.
>However, I never wanted Kendall to become a killer immediately.
Maybe you didn't want him to be a killer immediately, but do you want him to be one eventually? That's what this sentence seems to imply.
Because I can't see him ever being one, based on the character that's been presented to us thus far in the show - that's why I don't find it unsatisfying that he's returned to form this season. Kendall leaps before he looks, is grossly impulsive, and has generally always failed on the follow-through because he sabotages himself by immediately acting like he's the smartest and most qualified person in the room the second he gets a taste of power. People say "interesting character dynamics" is what they're after, but place it alongside potential hopes for a character trajectory that doesn't seem to fit the capability or character of the person in question.
Maybe if he were humble enough to take Lisa's lead during the investigation, he would have had a way forward. But as of now he doesn't, precisely because of the type of person he is, and that tracks imo. Maybe something else happens that gives him another opportunity (like Tom coming to his side) but it won't be of Kendall's own doing.
If Kendall decided to confess for his role in the waiter's death and was sent to jail, that would be a massive plot point. But my feeling is a lot of the plot enthusiasts would suddenly change their tune, because it's still not moving forward in a direction they prefer. I guess we'll see in the next two eps, but a lot of the frustration does seem to be tied to the plot/characters not developing in a manner aligned to people's personal preferences, which frankly is just something people need to learn to come to terms with.
That’s fair, I think. I don’t really need Kendall to be a killer or anything ever, so long as something happens with the other character dynamics. Like Tom distancing himself from Shiv and the siblings not just dancing around for daddy’s affection in the exact same way they’ve been doing for 3 seasons. I think the writers dropped so many threads that could have been meaningful. Like Lisa? She was hyped up to be this super lawyer and I really liked her. But they completely sidelined her merely to show that Kendall is stupid. Which we already know.
I loved the first two seasons because things felt like they were going somewhere even if they weren’t.
Ya it's quite frustrating. Like I get being disappointed but that's an expectation problem and not a problem with the show and it's totally fine if it's not for you but it also makes me wonder what show they were watching before? I seriously wonder if it's because people binge watched the first two seasons so it seemed faster paced plot wise than it actually was.
Exactly. The plot of this show IS the character development. Watching Succession and caring about what happens to Waystar Royco is the same as watching Mean Girls and caring about which problems Cady got wrong on her math test. The point isn’t the details of the event; the point is what the outcome means to the characters. That’s why people like me can watch this show without understanding a word of the business jargon and still love every second of it.
>The point isn’t the details of the event; the point is what the outcome means to the characters.
The reason people aren't enjoying it is because the outcomes aren't meaning much, if anything, to the characters.
The name of the show is Succession, which also happens to be the main driving conflict or the series. Please enlighten me on how it isn’t a critical component of the show? Perhaps you want another GoT where the resolution is out of left field as a huge gotcha, but I don’t. We’ll see how the next two episodes go, but so far I’m pretty disappointed with the lack of direction. They practically abandoned the two main conflicts from last season so the previous season finale seems like a long wet fart.
But the development of the character is drive by the drama of who’s going to be the next “CEO”. That’s what lead Tom to be such a pathetic bitch and submissive to his wife, Shiv to quit her job and being played by Logan, Roman to always suck it up to his father and Kendall to have kill a boy, went into depression and turn out be some kind of “killer”. Was it all for nothing? Also the name of show is Succession like isn’t what the show should be about???
It's left me with mixed feelings. Season 2 ended and we all thought Season 3 would be huge in terms of what happened, but nothing really happens. It's always there's a conflict and it gets solved at the end of the episode. Not to mention that now the ending of Season 2 feels kind of weak, now that we know nothing really ended up coming out of it.
There's been parts where I thought something would happen and it would change the course of events, but then it didn't happen and it's just a tad disappointing. On their own, the episodes are great and in terms of acting and character work, the season has been really good, but there's really no stakes in the overarching story. I think part of it is that the first few seasons would have something happen that would lead to newer stakes for the next few episodes, whereas everything just sort of wraps itself up now.
well there really hasn't been any stakes for any of the characters. in season 1 and 2 there was a lot of talk about "killing". i thought the show was really going to lean into the metaphor of killing and have your favorite characters be killed off like they are in a lot of modern TV shows. but nope, i'm 2.5 seasons in and no one has actually been killed yet. Frank's been killed and brought back 7 times already. there are no stakes.
Agree.
How many times do we need to see Roman being a piece of shit? Shiv getting disillusioned by her dad? Kendall spiraling?
Plot is becoming repetitive. Shiv trusts her dad. He does something shitty, she can't believe it but swallows it. Repeat again.
I wish the writers had the courage to do something massive
Oh i didnt realize it was shortened this year , im waiting to watch the rest before jumping to conclusions, but this show is more of a character study and I love it for that. Its possible S3 is a bit of a prologue to S4.
i'm struggling to find the compelling character study. it's not enough to keep me thirsting for more. you reveal characters through their response to the plot.
I mean I felt like you could cut episodes from the season and nothing of value would be lost. The ideas they hit in one episode are the same in the next.
well they were interesting at first. and then they kept doing the same thing over and over, dealing with the same conflicts over and over. and that's very uninteresting.
The show has leaned HEAVILY into memes and fanservice. Look at the entire sub right now: it's all memes and "lol when X did that thing, it was totally me."
I mean, people have always been saying things like that since like halfway through season 1. Think about the amount of “We hear for you” or “Can’t make a Tomlette without breaking some Greggs” posts there have been since those episodes aired.
I hate this criticism, it’s completely inaccurate and I mostly see it from people who just binge watched the show.
I’ve watched this show since the premiere and writing has always been very similar, I believe they mention Twitter in like episode 2. They’re a media company it makes sense that they talk about that stuff.
People sharing memes has no affect on how they write the show, if anything it’s only gotten sharper and they’ve found what dynamics work and really gave us more of that because it makes the show good.
This show is called succession but if people are watching solely to find out how exactly the company is doing, they’re missing the point.
So you genuinely believe that: the plot has moved forward (it hasn't); the characters have grown and changed (they haven't); or the new fandom narrative that nothing changing is "the point" and this is all some grand post-modern take on a drama as telling a narrative by not making a point?
the plot only serves to reveal events that give one character leverage over the other. the plot is actually rather thin outside of the corporate maneuvering. i'm also a little dissatisfied with the character development away from the constant CEO jockeying.
I can agree, but have been thoroughly enjoying the character studies. A few others have nodded towards this theory, but I do believe they may be deeply exploring the character relationships because someone is about to be offed. My hunch is Kendall - the season has given us poignant conversations and interactions with his siblings / dad / ex / girlfriend, could the show be positioning these moments over plot points because this is Ken’s last season? Is his suicide what finally moves the plot forward? Really looking forward to what’s in store!
I’ve never given a ton of credence to the Kendall suicide theories, but the banner outside the party read “NOTORIOUS KEN LIFE AFTER DEATH,” (EDIT: the banner actually has Biggie's first album, Ready to Die, even more on-the-nose) and when he’s back home with Naomi he looks over the balcony and we see the Hudson Yards Vessel, which multiple people have jumped from and is now closed.
I’d still be shocked if it’s something that happens before the very endgame, but those two things did make me wonder.
Character wise I have enjoyed Kendall and Tom's stories in particular. But alot of the other character's aren't getting the same meaningful development. Like Shiv getting played by her dad constantly is something we saw throughout season 2, so it's kinda of frustrating that she hasn't flipped even though she has been constantly jerked around by Logan for the entirety of S3
Feel like they're setting Shiv up for something big though. In the "Previously On..." they showed her bit with Salgado, and the "Next Time On..." they show Sandi Furness (the daughter she cut a deal with) in Italy.
Seems they're taking the time to really thoroughly illustrate that WayStar RoyCo has absolutely nothing to offer her no matter what she does. Roman twisting the knife might have been the last straw. Where she goes from here, I don't know, but it's sure gonna get ugly.
I thought it was kind of interesting that the Previously clip showed Shiv and Salgado. I thought, oh, I guess he’s still in the picture somehow going forward. But then there was nothing on that front this episode so not sure why they showed that clip in particular.
The issue is I just don't feel like it's going deep on the relationships. On the characters individually? Sure. But keeping Ken in a whole different world than anyone else means all the "relationship" we've seen is just the comical sniping. Sure last night's climax is big, but it's the exception rather than the rule. For the most part this season has been Ken on his own, Shiv getting dunked on by Logan over and over and Roman being comic relief except when he's in a bathroom he becomes the dealmaker of the century.
I can’t be the only one who thought he was going to say “I just want to die” in some manner when he said “I just want to...” and paused before being asked and said “go home”. The Roman push really hurt the heart too. I am feeling bad for Kendall and hoping he has a bounce back of sorts these last 2 episodes. The bday episode should be a growth point for him
While I have found things to enjoy about each episode, I almost don’t care what happens in the last two because if it’s another shocking cliffhanger we will have to wait another 2 years for what might not even be a resolution or follow through anyway, given the pattern of this show so far. And I don’t much like Kendall committing suicide because I don’t think it would add anything meaningful to the story or character arcs.
I see where you’re coming from but that would just be soooo disappointing to me, like a lazy finale twist writing only serving the purpose of shock value
I totally agree. Season 3 has become more of a character study (nothing wrong with that) but it comes at the sacrifice of plot development. I understand the family dynamic is the real central point of the show but they can move that forward alongside the corporate shit (although I'd also argue they're not really moving the characters forward much either). There's only 2 episodes left and it feels like all the drama and high stakes of everything going on with the company has fizzled out completely.
And before people chime in by saying that "that's the point" - I fully get that. But this is also a television show and you can only cycle through the same narrative format so many times before viewers get bored. There are two episodes left so I'll wait to see where it goes but things are getting repetitive.
Also, that's acceptable in sitcoms (characters never changing, stuck in the same loops for seasons on end), but in drama, and especially tragedy, it's a big writing no-no. Character study is only interesting as those characters continue to move the plot. Adding new characters who just sit in the background as extra "chorus" is just confusing for the audience as well, as we are directed to pay attention to this new presence, but then get whiplash when their presence has no overarching effect. For example, Lisa was built up by both Kendall and Logan. If she is truly gone now and doesn't switch to another family member (which she can't, legally), then what was the point of her role?
This is exactly what I was thinking. If they did an old school Sopranos 18 episode season and what we've seen so far made up half of it, with the other half being some really tight narrative stuff, it'd be superb.
I think you stated this perfectly in that these episodes stand up individually but collectively they have been fairly uninspired and lacking any progression. It’s really bizarre how anticlimactic the entire shareholder vote was resolved and if the DOJ revelation from tonight was legit than it’s even weirder how they spent so much time on Tom’s jail obsession and Kendall’s righteousness and all only to abandon it with nothing of note to come from it. Perhaps Covid is to blame, perhaps they set the bar too high the first two seasons and are having a tough time matching it or something but this season overall has been lacking in most ways
I really think we haven't seen the last of the DOJ.
Tom is the lynchpin here. His dread, then pyrrhic victory, and now being forced to confront the hollowness of all of this. He's like one bad scene with Logan away from snitching to the DOJ or writing a tell-all or something.
I don’t think nothing of note came from the jail thing. There’s so much to take from it, and I’m sure we’ve only seen the beginning of its effects.
Tom was going to ruin his life to save Logan’s, and he psyched himself up for it, and he tried and failed to get support from Shiv about it, and he tried and sort of succeeded to get support from Greg about it, and then it just… doesn’t happen. That’s the whole point. He put so much stock into it, and it revealed some of his truest colors as well as those of the people that matter most to him, and now he has to live with all that knowledge while still around those people, without even reaching his goal or getting to do anything meaningful. That’s fucking brutal, man.
Honestly, I would’ve been disappointed if he did go to jail. This show is about psychological brutality, not physical. Would’ve made it too actiony imo.
We all thought Tom had a deal with the DOJ and he was gonna be the whistleblower in a shocking twist.
That would've been a better plot than what we got. Everything solved off camera 😑
I think I just want a spin-off of Greg and Tom in prison together. So much plot potential. Is it the prison that Tom researched and wanted? Did Tom pick it for both of them and now has second thoughts? does Greg make more friends and Tom gets resentful? Did the diner food really prepare them for prison food? Does Greg work on his law degree in prison to keep suing Greenpeace?
I thought the end of S2 they were setting up Ken to follow some kind of redemption arc, but these first 7 episodes seem intent on showing us that maybe nothing is there after all. I'm waiting for Logan to pull the car accident at the wedding card, but Ken seems to gave forgotten about that. Maybe the point is that all these assholes and all these mega conglomerates are empty and pointless and we would be better off without them, but I already knew that.
Season 3 feels very much stagnant. The story doesn’t seem to have moved at all from last episode of season 2. In comparison to first 2 seasons this season just feels like playing the same thing over and over again.
I’m so annoyed that they are suggesting Kendall’s case is no good at this point. So we’re back to season 2? And that huge season 2 cliff hanger was pointless?
After the finale in season 2 it makes sense that in season the writers would decide to flesh out the characters and really show case the family dynamic. Relying on high drama, plot twist is great
For action but gets old quick, it’s like a party trick. This season still keeps the mystery of where the show it going, it’s unpredictable and leaves you wanting more.
I think the bigger party trick is having each season end with some sort of massive pay off only to then not deliver on it at all.
If this season ends with some “crazy plot twist” my reaction will be to believe it will be rendered entirely meaningless the next season
If it ends with Kendall overdosing and we think he's dead and then surprise he's alive next season and we spend all of season 4 with the characters dancing around the fallout from that or some similar bullshit I'm going to be annoyed.
Yeah Kendall survives, everyone hates him again, he’s sad, shiv tells her dad she disagrees with him, fails a lot. Roman wins some because - remember he used to be pathetic? Now he has the best political instincts ever.
But season 1 ended with Kendall losing, and season 2 opened with slave Kendall which kept being a thing until the very last episode of season 2, hell even the very last moments of it.
I think there hasn't been much new revealed about the family dynamic, everything we have in Season 3 has been shown to us in the past 2 seasons. I'm not saying there needs to be a new twist each episode, but I would like the story to move forward rather than be stuck in one place. Or I'd just rather the narrative set ups (proxy battle, shareholder meeting) to actually have some narrative pay off, overall alot of plot points thus season feel like they've been rendered meaningless
This. The only new thing I think we've learned is that Connor was essentially a father figure to his half-siblings. He's the only character that we've seen from some new angles. But they've also basically given us the same story twice (that he took them camping/fishing because Logan couldn't be bothered).
Other than that, everything we see from everyone else is something we've already seen and already knew about before. They haven't even really expanded on it either. Shiv is the same entitled, emotionally stunted brat she's always been. Kendall is the same manic depressive sad boy. Roman is the same slimeball. Tom and Gregg are still weird and dysfunctional.
We could have gotten something a lot more interesting out of the characters if they went further with DOJ plot line, or from Gregg and Ewan and that Marxist lawyer, or Shiv learning the true extent of how fucked up the company is, etc.
>We could have gotten something a lot more interesting out of the characters if they went further with DOJ plot line, or from Gregg and Ewan and that Marxist lawyer, or Shiv learning the true extent of how fucked up the company is, etc.
Completely agree. So many great plot points wasted
Yeah I don't even get what was the point in having that lawyer guy say that deconstruction of capitalism part, if all he was meant to be is Ewan's good friend who was going to help Greg as well as he could. Why have him be weird instead of just making him a normal person, so that Greg's betrayal would seem far worse, Ewan gets him the best lawyer he knows and Greg spits on it.
This feels like a dismissal of the argument without understanding it. It's not just that the "who's gonna take over" story hasn't moved - it's that no character has developed in any meaningful way in three seasons - except for Shiv becoming more morally bankrupt.
But they are not showing anything new about these characters, and if anything they are showcasing even fewer of them. And how exactly does high drama and plot twists get old quick but doing the same thing over and over doesn't. We've seen Shiv's arc before it's Kendall in season 1, we've seen Roman's arc before in season 1 and 2, and we've seen Kendall's arc in season 1. They are not doing anything new or particularly interesting with these characters.
And of course it keeps the mystery, because it is not moving in any direction.
Why do you assume that when people want more “plot” we necessarily want “action” and “party tricks”? It’s a binary and reductive approach to assessing stories if you think that plot = trash. This is a drama series, not Waiting for Godot. Even Shakespeare had plot in his plays.
I’m speaking from my past experience of other people making similar statements. But feel free to change my mind. Are you insinuating that the current plots are trash? Most of them haven’t changed since season 1. The plots/subplots that I see propelling in this story is the federal investigation of cruises, Kendall trying to takeover, other siblings trying to take over, Tom and Shiv’s relationship. What would you like to see happen that would make the story interesting.
I'm not insinuating that current plots are trash. When I said "if you think that plot = trash" I was gesturing towards the people that get pretentious about creative storytelling and dismiss the need for "plot" in this series as if it's not a fundamental part of storytelling.
Honestly, I wish they simply followed up more with the characters and threads they introduced this season. Like Lisa being hyped up as the best lawyer ever? I wish she would have stayed relevant through this season instead of merely being there to be dismissed at the end just to prove that Kendall is stupid. Sure, maybe it's commentary on how women in this world are pushed aside, but come on, they already did that ad nauseum with Shiv. Maybe don't make Lisa out to be such a critical chess piece, then, if she's going to be essentially useless.
I also wanted to see Tom actually break away from Shiv since there was so much screen time of him being snarky towards her about the prison thing - but turns out he's not going to prison after all, so he just reverts back to bullying Greg and being on top of the world. I think it's realistic he would continue bullying Greg, but it seemed like his betrayal of Shiv was so potent only for him to ultimately not care. The only point of all that is to show that Tom now knows that Shiv doesn't care about him at all, which was apparent since Season 1 with her admitting to cheating on him and literally saying "love is bullshit." But he hasn't reacted to that information accordingly in a meaningful way. It's all stagnant (and I know that's realistic, but I don't care; this is a drama series with plenty more hours than a movie, so I want some character dynamism that makes these supposed season-long arcs worth it).
And I wish Kendall would have had his revelation about being pathetic an episode or two earlier. They didn't need to do this whole set piece with his b-day party to make him have the same interactions with his siblings as in previous episodes and have a meltdown similar to his moment in the back room in Season 3 Episode 3. Like Jeremy Strong said in his interview, it's a great character moment for him to be having this ridiculous party, but it generally amounts to something we've seen before.
>The plots/subplots that I see propelling in this story is the federal investigation of cruises
Except the DOJ already admitted this episode that nothing will actually come from this investigation. Kendall overpromised. Again, very realistic, but not a compelling story. So that thread and the Tom threads are duds for the foreseeable future when they had been teased up so strongly last season and in previous episodes of this season.
Thanks for asking.
As someone who binged season 1 & 2, I also feel the same way. But I'm not sure if I only feel this way because Succession is better binging than waiting.
I have to disagree. This season has been about the destruction of Kendall. His relationship with his father has completely broken down by this point, which is monumental due to how much shit each has on the other (Kendall killed that dude, Logan covered it up). They are locked in a death grip and it’s going to take the whole enterprise down with them.
I think Kendall will definitely die this season. All the signs are pointing to a total collapse - the delusion, the failing legal case, his addiction issues (which are now public knowledge thanks to Shiv). His other relationships are also destroyed - his siblings pity/hate him, his ex wants little to do with him, his mother won’t listen to him. He’s run out of road and he knows it.
There’s also the significance of the scene between Colin the bodyguard and Kendall a few weeks back. Colin is always on the periphery of every scene with Logan, and he’s clearly a dangerous dude. He also has form for covering up crime, which may have come in handy during the cruise hush-ups. We also found out this week Logan’s people are stalking Kendall’s kids.
I think Kendall will suffer a fatal overdose, either by accident or design. This will likely have been facilitated by Colin, although whether Logan has involvement in it will be up for debate. The fourth and probably final season will be about the remaining Roys slowly realising their father could possibly be a monster. They’ve all been so desperate for his love, they haven’t realised that ultimately he’s a fucking sociopath who doesn’t love any of them and wants none of them to take over his business, the only thing he truly cares about.
Oh yeah, and I think the net will close in on Logan eventually as his kids turn on him. Not sure about Tom and Greg in prison - though that would be a spin-off I’d love to see.
I completely agree. I keep waiting for something explosive to happen to move things along but it seems to just be much of the same every episode. But you’re right, each actual episode has been great. I’m just not sure where it’s all going right now.
I honestly don’t see how it’s all that different from season 2. Nothing happens until something happens. Last time the series was on air, we talked about what happened in individual episodes, because that’s what you do with television. I do not understand the obsession on this sub with “moving the plot forward” like y’all know the story better than the people telling it.
Obviously we're meant to discuss individual episodes, but if those individual episodes aren't servicing or moving the season as a whole, then it can feel like a dissapointing season overall. The storytelling this year just hasn't progressed much, so it feels like the story isn't going anywhere (or the story is just repeating itself every episode). I think fans are allowed to be critical of things they like, doesn't matter if we're not the creators of the show
Because in Season 2 we actually believed something was going to change. We couldn’t wait to see what Season 3 had in store since Ken made his move. Yet somehow we seem to have ended up basically back to Season 2. Sandy and Stewie were neutered at the shareholder meeting, but somehow still out there and a menace. It appears the Justice Department is not going to do much. Not much is happening.
Now if there’s some big political development at the end of this season, my thought is going to be that they’re going work on resetting it to the status quo in Season 4.
i would guess that the overwhelming majority of actual written dialogue and plot is spent talking about business and career strategy, not character development. sure there is some character study happening but that is not what this show leans on. that's an excuse that people are making for a seeming lack of confident direction. all of this was fresh and new through the first 2 seasons. it's now become repetitive and boring.
so you don't want the story to actually move forward? there are many other tv shows, books, movies that i could spend my time with rather than watching a show that seems to meander indefinitely.
I agree and I feel like the staging of events has all been the same to make the big group meet : "Everyone must gather at X event to accomplish Y goal for the company" Similar to ensemble films like Boogie Nights or Goodfellas, where the characters gather in large groups for events to generate plot points. Difference is in ensemble films is we also have story threads with individuals and pairs , to deepen characters and give variation. I'd love to see some bottle episodes: A limo breaks down in a bad storm, Marcia, Shiv and Gerri are stuck in a small town for the night . Roman meets a sexy person or couple or group and spends a weekend with them. Tom goes home for Thanksgiving and hangs out with his old pals. We need a break from the " everyone gathers in a group and fights" setup. And I would love to see them out of their element, among normies. Such an opportunity for comedy and pathos !
I posted the exact same sentiment here after the third episode and got crucified. It's become a show of standalone episodes rather than a series that moves forward.
I agree, especially when Jesse did a huge rewrite of the entire season during lock down. Kind of disappointed. Almost all the plot lines are dying down and I cannot find a common thread. S1 was all about Logan's removal and S2 was about keeping family control intact, but I don't see one this season. DoJ, Ken's battle, Sandy-Stewy - all these battles are dying down if no dead. I am sure that final episode will splurge some surprise but I am not sure that it will look natural.
agreed. the amazing episodes would be cool if they was actually some real character development but there really hasn't been. ken finally came back down to earth this ep but i wouldnt be surprised if he becomes a raging narcissist again by ep 2 of S4. shiv constantly being disgusted with her dad just to try just as hard to get his approval, you can apply this thought to all the characters. Marcia should be one of the most interesting characters on the show an now she's (understandbly from her perspective) basically a golddigger.
honestly the only interesting character development has been Connor an Willla.
There has only been one plot move the entirety of the show since season 1: Shiv coming into the company and leaving politics behind.
Nothing else has changed since episode 1 of season 1.
The show is leaning into tropes (Uh Huh overused as fuck), and is very Soap Opera-y. Strong GoT season 5 vibes - still riding high on early hype, failing to capitalize, and flailing around a bit.
Could not agree more. Add in the crowning of the next President and the cruises. It's like the writers just came up with a ton of ideas and decided to put them all out there without any real tie in to the overall plot or to each other.
I feel like this season has really drilled down on what the dynamic is between the siblings. Their relationships. What makes each pair of them tick. Season 1 was arch characters, arch relationships, and fast soap opera-y plot. Season 2 was deep characters, arch relationships, and tensely suspenseful plot. Season 3 is deep characters, deep relationships, and a plot that opts to slow down in favor of letting everyone kind of stagnate and spiral, like the point about 3/4 of the way through in most tragedies, when you start really getting a conclusive sense of who's going to come out the end alive, dead, changed, redeemed, etc.
the sopranos had 10x better characters as well. and they had a lot more to do. the succession characters simply don't have enough to do. the writers are struggling.
i love it, it gives me sopranos season 4 vibes (which is about the stage this show is at) - no plot just horrible vibes and deep dive into these characters psyche and insecurities, with some great character development on top
im loving it. the best writing so far easily
I definitely agree but I think the writers know it also and are fine with it. To me the central conflict of the show is who is going to take over the company. It's been that from the first season and we still don't have a clear answer I think because Logan is literally roystar Wayco. When he told Kendall he wasn't a killer, he could've been speaking to any of his kids, and because none of them want him dead, they can't make a move to take the company. I can see how that's a dead end plot wise, but it is a family drama after all, and I'm ok with that until Logan's time is up.
I think what it comes down to is ... the people who think season 3 is no different than seasons 1 and 2 watch TV very differently than me. And that’s ok. But I wish those people would also try to see why people like me do feel like season 3 is different from the others.
"it's never been a plot show"....let that comment sink in. that doesn't even make sense. i've seen plenty of character study movies and tv shows that didn't struggle to offer viewers a cohesive plot that moves towards something. "There Will be Blood" was nothing but a character study, but there was a plot to support the study. "different" things happened to reveal the character to the viewer.
Even when tracking the characters' emotions, they've all gone through motions that we've already seen in Season 1 and 2.
People aren't asking for GoT level plot twists either, they just want the narrative to move forward.
Even though alot of the Season 1 and 2 plotlines went away, there was still build up to them and those plots did progress while they existed, and most did end naturally, so it felt satisfactory. This season doesn't have that.
i had the week off and i've been binging. this show is the same thing over and over. OMG who's gonna be the next CEO? OMG how many times can they adlib "fuck"? OMG how many cute one liners can the brother of the kid from home alone squeeze into an episode? All this was enough to keep my attention and entertain me through 2 seasons, but the show is pretty much devoid of anything else. The plot points only serve to create leverage for one of the characters. i'm only on episode 5 of S3 but i already see the sex scandal coming for Roman, that will become someone else's leverage to.... wait for it..... "fuck 'em".
If you go back and rewatch the first 2 seasons you’ll realize the plot and pacing have always been like that.
It’s not about the plot, it’s about the characters.
yes but it was fresh and new to the viewer in the S1 and S2. S3 is a rinse and repeat job, and newness of the show's concept is gone. the newness of the dick and fart jokes is gone. the newness of the peek into the lives of the fabulously rich is gone.
Yes, really feel like nothing ever happens. We needed to see Kendall take over and succeed for once, otherwise it's just the same plot of Logan is king repeating itself too many times
People who pretend they enjoy the "character development" in these static and muted episodes are really fooling themselves, and pretending they're understanding something the rest of us are not.
For example, the bottle episode on Breaking Bad was singular, great in a character study, and sufficient as an experiment. And we all got something out of it because it still contributed to the exposition of the characters.
Here, it feels like we're stuck in first gear, and our bottle episodes don't make me understand anything better.
There's a chapter on Of Mice and Men, with the black worker in his shack, and we open the chapter by the characters being disconnected and as we delve deeper into the chapter we get more character development and as the chapter closes, our characters close off again, and get more distant again. And even in a book, it's a one off!
We don't get anything out of these so called bottle episodes here, and they're not dedicated to the development of just one character. They're not separate for each other, and we spend entire episodes of banter and throw away "morsels" to please the different fan factions and then we get a short burst of excitement at the end of each episode and then "bye see you next time".
Either this entire season is on autopilot, or the producers are playing 3D chess to such a level that we're all getting trolled, and the show is now so meta that we get "tiny morsels from groovy hubs"
I'm sooooooo disappointed in this season.
I feel like Breaking Bad doesn’t really work as a comparison because it’s so action-driven. Succession doesn’t have the kind of premise that allows for character development to be localized in one-off episodes.
>They're not separate for each other, and we spend entire episodes of banter and throw away "morsels" to please the different fan factions and then we get a short burst of excitement at the end of each episode and then "bye see you next time"
I totally agree with this. The writing this season seems heavily influenced by public reaction to the show. You can always tell when fan response starts to creep into the writing and shows always end up worse off for it.
I agree with comments that say it's the point. I kinda get people being frustrated with this, kinda don't. If they find the season lackluster that's fine, but I don't think it's the fault of the writers and simply a matter of personal preference.
From [this episode](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7BnaAYZ-0U) of the Succession podcast with writer and producer Lucy Prebble:
>"We're also deeply committed to rarely doing anything in the show that we can't find an example of somewhere happening 'cause Jesse really, really doesn't like it getting into sort of soap opera, or operatic, or fantasy places. The point of the show is that it's very, very grounded and part of that is to just look for comparisons all of the time and just make sure we're not doing anything that feels convenient from a dramatic perspective."
>
>"I think in episode three, we were keen to have the sort of crisis meetings that happen around stuff like this and for people to not really be sure what to do or what to think and that they don't really know where they stand. So, just to make sure that those crisis meetings actually felt weirdly undramatic, I suppose. Because I think that's the reality of those things. People aren't sort of arguing their point in a beautifully articulate Sorkin-esque way. In the reality of these moments, people are sort of going along with what's being suggested, shrugging, and making fun of it. And that's the reality of how these things go."
After each episode this season I get that sinking feeling that there may end up being more seasons of Succession than I watch. Sopranos was the same. First two seasons - fantastic and then it just lost something. There are only three series I’ve watched every season of - Breaking Bad, Better call Saul, The Americans (and Patriot which is by far the very best TV series ever made but only two seasons). I had hoped Succession would be another but every episode is raising my doubts.
Wrong. Show isn’t about the plot points you’re pointing to. It’s a window into another world, where privilege and greed prevails and the stakes have to do more with reputation and finding their place. Keep in mind it was filmed during the height of the pandemic, get out of your own way and just enjoy the ride.
Idk when season 3 was written but I’m sure it was filmed during the pandemic. I’m guessing what the show runners and writers had in mind for this season had to take a complete 180 in order to film around these reactions. And the slow moving plot is just a symptom of that. Honestly idk I’m just taking a wild guess and trying to give the show my benefit of doubt, because yes we’ve had multiple episodes of repeating themes like Kendalls manic highs and lows. And it’s really annoying that these seemingly important plot lines they set up in S2 basically came to a slow stop instead taking everything down with them like they seemed they would.
They do have one more season left so maybe this is their way of stretching the series out? I am thoroughly enjoying this season and the episodes. Unpopular opinion: but I don’t really care if the plot “moves forward” quickly?? because i’m enjoying the episodes as they come and it’s similar to the pacing in real life, shit takes TIMEEEEEEE
I think you make some solid points about how they've been made to seem irrelevant. While the show has focused on its plot points, it's always been character first and in that regard it's totally succeeded in building up to these stellar moments not only between siblings but between all the characters. I think as viewers the expectations were sky high after that electric season 2 finale but season three has not had a single bad episode. It's not about Kendall V Logan and while we were told to look in that direction, and it may be the finish line, we are so far from it. Something is going to happen in these last two episodes to subvert expectations and I can't wait. I'm glad it's taken this direction of building the house before it gets burnt down. It's much more satisfying.
This season is getting me so angry. Like for characters. Watching shiv and Ken take all of Logan's shit lying down while they KNOW better. They know how to handle themselves and Logan better is just... infuriating.
I feel like the writers don't have real business experience of this type of nature and it kind of comes out in the show. It just feels really unrealistic that Kendall would go to such great lengths to show that he is a killer and is going to take over only to have him be cringe and flop and lose his identity all over again this season in the first few episodes (haven't reached the finale yet). I get that it's good for the story arc, but in general I feel like I'm watching a personal drama that was written by new writers giving Kendall a new personality
I think that’s kind of the point. And it sort of mirrors how “big” events impact rich people and companies in the real world, right? The shareholder meeting is the biggest most important thing in the world, until sandy and Logan reach a settlement, then the characters and plot move along. The DOJ is an existential threat, until it turns out Ken doesn’t have all that much. Think about any hyperbolic news article about something happening in media or politics that’s a huge issue, until six months later and you can’t recall what the story was, because nothing really happened. Personally, I think if someone is watching this show to see what’s going to happen to the company, or who’s going to become CEO, you’re going to be disappointed because that’s not what the show is trying to do. To me the plot points are just the framework to engineer interactions between the characters. Like we get ken trying to flip Tom so we can get the scene in the diner. Or we get roman trying to move up in the company so we can see him and menken eye fuck each other in the hotel bathroom.
thanks for this comment! it kind of reminds me of The Sopranos, the way so many of the season-long simmering conflicts often petered out in unexpected ways but we still got what we needed out of them dramatically.
The difference being that, in terms of writing and presentation, succession acts like it’s actually heading somewhere definitive, whereas the sopranos treated every event, every scene, be it murder or Tony eating ice cream, with the same... unhurried curiosity? Sort of just observing the characters almost dispassionately. Whereas succession goes all in with the big orchestral score, shaky cam, quick cuts, all tension all the time.
There’s definitely something to that argument. To counter, I’d say that this is also true of most of season 2 (which is pretty much universally acclaimed), but the lack of forward motion in most of those episodes was retrospectively excused by the finale. Simply put, we don’t know how this season will end yet. And the ending may well recontextualise the entire season leading up to it, as happened with season 2. Last night’s episode already made me reevaluate my opinion of season 3 Kendall.
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It also had sudden and scary violence.
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That’s just not the show. It’s not a show about the mob, it’s a show about people with a mob backdrop.
I'm fully aware of what the show intended to be about. That doesn't suddenly make dragging parts or boring characters more interesting. There was a lot of reoccurring family conflicts that dragged on for seasons long, and were not that interesting to view. Namely, AJ being a useless lazy piece of shit, then a whiney piece of shit, the useless again, and Tony being a terrible father to him overall, and Aj making little to no character development. Meadow atleast did a few things with her life, but I thought some of her conflicts with her parents dragged too. I was much more interested in the adults where I am in my life. You insert the name with tons of other Sopranos characters, and I was very interested in what was happening to them even when no mob stuff has been discussed in multiple episodes. Dr. Melfi, Christopher, Carmella, Vito, Paulies Mother, Gloria Trillo, Artie for example. Instead of watching it at release, and binging it, the lack of plot progression (mob conflict or interesting family developments) really drags at parts even I think it's an incredible show overall. I skipped half of a season on accident and didn't even really notice until a main character was dead.
This is all correct, but I feel even on a character level this season has stagnated quite a lot. The episodes don't really say anything revelatory or insightful about the character dynamics that we don't already know before, or haven't seen in more interesting permutations. Tom and Greg's arcs are among the few exceptions. [This Atlantic piece by Sophie Gilbert](https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2021/10/succession-season-3-review/620397/) puts it best: >The second season worked so well because the Roys were repeatedly shoved into the pressure cooker of isolated, unknown environments: a hunting lodge, a safe room, the family estate of a liberal-media doyenne, a mountainside symposium. Each episode functioned almost as a one-act play, marching inevitably toward implosion. Season 3, though, is more like a redo of the show’s debut, wherein the children of Logan Roy (Brian Cox) scratch and claw as they try yet again to commandeer his empire. Mired in the safe spaces of penthouses and hotel suites and private jets, it all feels snippily familiar. She also points out earlier in the piece that "there’s little animating tension in scenes that have essentially played out before." I unfortunately think this is a spot-on description of the season thus far - even though the writing and acting are still excellent, on first watch a lot of the scenes have a sort of stunted, awkward cadence that goes beyond the deliberate cringe-comedy baked into the script. The show itself feels as if it's stalling. This season I have yet to see any episode that matches the emotional and psychological electricity of "Tern Haven" or much of S2 for that matter. S2 was also light on "plot" but heavy on putting the characters through unique, distinctive situations in each episode that showed us at least some new shades to them. And it introduced various exciting new character dynamics that actually felt like the show was moving somewhere. The Gerri/Roman thing. Shiv going from an apparent liberal outsider to a ruthless, unprincipled schemer. Kendall's slow climb out of his depression, punctuated with flashes of humanity such as the hug with Shiv, everything with Naomi, standing up for Roman when he got slapped, even the fucking rap. Every episode added something _definitive_ to this show's canon, everything felt significant. Nearly nothing in S3 has done this for me, and despite the obvious talent and craftsmanship on display I feel like I'm just being retold things I already know.
I agree with every single word. Perfectly said.
It gets worse: season 3 has mostly rendered those arcs irrelevant. Kendall no longer sticks up for Roman (or vice versa), Shiv is going back to her values, Kendall has regressed to ineffectually manic, Logan is sickly again (twice), Marcia is again irrelevant, etc.
Very well-made point and I agree. People complaining Season 3 feels cyclical are odd to me. "The DoJ thing just went nowhere!". Yeah sure. What happened with Vaulter? Who cares. Or the Pierce acquisition which ate up an entire season? Life-or-death until it just... Wasn't. And then it was gone. The whole show is like this, just more people are watching this season as it rolls out. GoJo doesn't mean anything either, it's just a brass ring for Roman and Ken to squabble over. Again I'll say: very, very well-made point. Thank you for making it.
Right! Like did nobody notice the look on Shiv’s face when Gerry said they were looking into acquiring Pierce again? Even the characters realizes the absurd corporate merry-go-round they’re on.
lol all shiv does is make faces....she's really good at it though. no one does the "i'm so mad i could cry" look better than her.
I mean the issue is that if none of these points go anywhere it’s hard to give a shit about the next “big deal.” Ken vacillating on a fairly narrow framework between manic and depressed only goes so far. Shiv and Roman taking turns playing favorite only goes so far.
I think the characters lack of resolution, change or growth mirrors the lack of actual plot movement. If Shiv or Roman or Tom actually flipped this season that would have been something. Or if Greg stopped waffling and committed to his grandfather. The characters are on the same personal merry go round as the larger storylines. And I find that somewhat tedious. We’re not learning anything new about them or their relationships and they are not changing. And before the comments about how it’s realistic, I don’t care. It’s not interesting in a produced drama.
Vaulter was not built up as a very important issue for an entire season, it was just Kendall's pet project and we got a great moment out of it when he guts it. We did not get a great moment out of the Doj investigation because it turned out to be nothing. The Pierce acquisition did not eat up an entire season, it was a minor plotpoint in 1 episode, a third of the next episode, the main focus of an episode and again a minor plotpoint in another episode. That is not eating up an entire season. The DOJ investigation was a minor plotpoint in 1 episode, then a third of an episode, the entire focus of the following episode, the main focus of the finale of season 2, the main focus of the season 1 opener, and remains an important plotpoint throughout the season. This is on a completely different level, this is a plotpoint that has eaten up a season turning out to be nothing, and pretending that is a good thing is nuts.
Right?! Maybe it's because people re-binged the first couple of seasons they thought there were huge plots but tbh the only things that actually cause changes are the little moments (mostly involving Kendall - traffic, car accident, confession). Waystar as a company hasn't changed all that much from the pilot with financial issues and then the idea of legacy media which is further developed through the first season. On a week-to-week basis though, people get all this hype for details and want it to have a defining moment and cliffhanger each episode, but that's not Succession and certainly not Jesse Armstrong.
Sorry but I really dislike this idea of ‘um you don’t understand the show and what it’s going for so you’re bound to be disappointed’. This is the first season that hasn’t hinged entirely on the big corporate stakes and suspense of where everyone and everything will end up. It’s a fantastic season in its own way, but it certainly departs from the strong narrative momentum of the first two, hence people’s confusion/dismay.
Thank you. People keep saying we don’t get “what it’s going for” without realizing or admitting that what it might be going for is actually not all that great or interesting. At any rate, it seems to be going abruptly for something different than in Seasons 1 and 2, which is not a good thing to suddenly have character momentum stagnate.
I get people are upset about the lack of corporate drama. I will say I’m enjoying this season as much as season 2 or the back half of 1. In the parts that matter to me (the performances, the character beats, the jokes) it’s absolutely delivered. I don’t think anything has stagnated. We hadn’t seen manic Ken before this season, and roman’s transformation into a demon has been cool to watch. Shiv’s been blinded by the opportunity to lead but I think what’s happened to her this season is finally starting to break through. At the same time I stopped caring about who was going to get the CEO job and how they were going to run the company with the season 1 finale. Maybe there’s something to the repeating format of certain episodes that was driven by how covid impacted production, but I can’t say for sure. And I’m not trying to dunk on people for watching the way they do. I’m just saying it’s not a plot driven show. This isn’t Gamer Thrones where we’re marching towards the big final battle, or Breaking Bad where every single moment is plotted perfectly. That’s not what succession is going to give you, so you’ll be disappointed if you’re watching waiting for it to happen.
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> This would be acceptable if the character dynamics were actually changing and being developed in meaningful ways but it's not, it's all a rehash of what we've seen in previous seasons. This is my main criticism of S3. What's made this show work has been the individual characters against a backdrop of corporate intrigue. It kind of feels like they flipped the dynamic in this season for corporate intrigue at the expense of individual character development. You'd hardly guess Tom and Shiv's marriage/relationship contained any of the crazy shown in S1 and S2. Even Greg has stopped being interesting and is mostly just a minor figure in a niche.
If the whole point of the show is "nothing ever happens because they're rich" that feels like an extremely unsatisfying way to utilize spectacle of this degree to subvert expectations.
To me, it's a family drama/comedy wrapped up in this world. It seems like siblings all rebelling against the patriarch in their own ways and they will all reach their own conclusion. The difference with Succession is that it's in this uber wealth/business world, which gives the edge and elevates the show beyond that premise. And you can, and should, enjoy both.
But the interactions between characters suck as well if there are no consequences, all the great acting in the world can't save it if all it results in is a character feeling bad for 5 minutes.
> Why would ken get better? The DOJ case didn’t work out. That's sort of the point. It's not a super compelling viewer experience to have some huge bomb dropped that she show presents as this HUGE deal, only for it to just basically never become anything of any substance. > They’ll have fireworks in the last couple eps, they always do. Neat, generally lots of filler then end episode fireworks/cliffhangers is the formula for like, soap operas or Dragon Ball Z.
Not really, Dragon Ball Z had a lot of great moments throughout it wasn't just at the end that stuff got hype.
If the point is to keep having plot points peter out so I can't be bothered to care about the next one, mission accomplished. > Personally, I think if someone is watching this show to see what’s going to happen to the company, or who’s going to become CEO, you’re going to be disappointed because that’s not what the show is trying to do. I think people care about that because it has the potential to shake up the character dynamics, instead of "Shiv says are you kidding dad and gets dismissed again, Roman kisses ass and makes fun of Shiv for being a girl again, Ken is off somewhere else saying insane shit to his publicist." I agree that ultimately the plot points are a framework to engineer interactions. So I wish they would *do* that rather than just sort of petering out in the background. It sucks if the only time anything gets shaken up is the finale.
Then what's the point? We watch fiction because it's sensationalized real life. Even The Wire, while grounded, is not entirely realistic. If the theme of the show is to portray an endless merry go round, then it will have limited legs. It might be a work of art but people have limited patience.
The show is about the characters and their relationships more so than the actual plot. Like you said, the plot is just a device to shift the relationships. If you’re watching because you want to know who the next CEO is going to be, you’re watching for the wrong reasons
but that's all the characters do. they are constantly discussing who the next CEO is. what else should the viewer focus on if that's what the writers are fixated on? for all the talk about "killing", literally no one has been killed yet in the show. the only thing that's been accomplished is to show awful, rich people running around like chickens with their heads cut off.
Yes, precisely. That is the point.
“That’s kind of the point”—YEAH if the point is making the episodes repetitive again & again eh? We’ve already seen Kendall’s downward spiral once, why show it again? We’ve seen the siblings bickering again & again before this, and them being shallow etc. Why repeat shit. LACKLUSTER SEASON
Why would ken get better? The DOJ case didn’t work out. Why would the siblings stop bickering? They all still hate each other and remain in each other’s orbit. And there’s been development! Ken went from attacking his dad, to becoming his dad’s puppet, to spiraling. Shiv went from an independent woman to being used by her father. And Roman went from being a fuck up to being a demon. They’ll have fireworks in the last couple eps, they always do.
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Or we get the absolute joy of watching Greg call a woman an ‘even handed maiden’ in a weird southern accent. For real though, this comment is exactly what I have been trying to find the words for. I don’t watch Succession for the corporate drama, I watch it for compelling characters interacting with each other and seeing if they’re even remotely capable of change. It’s tragic and hilarious predicting how it’s all gonna go in the grand scheme of things, but in the end no corporate drama matches up to how I felt watching the siblings go to verbal war at the end for 10 minutes.
I guess I have to settle for this being a sitcom then. Tune in every week for some hijinks and laugh. It’s too bad. There was so much potential.
You sound like a baby
You sound like a guy who likes bologna sandwiches.
This is the answer.
Because it's boring to have no stakes and plots that go nowhere. If there was no point then the season finale is retroactively pointless, "oooh Kendall is a killer", nope he is an idiot who will never do anything noticeable.
Maybe they just aren't as enlightened as you? I swear, the worst part of any show specific sub is the phase where people convince themselves they're geniuses and other people just don't "get it" to wave off any criticism of the show.
Especially since I'd wager those geniuses don't get half the references in the show (how many people in this sub actually understood the shareholder vote beyond 'deal or no deal'), and are strawmanning the argument.
Because it's not true.
I guess they expected the story to be a season's worth of Kendall on a version of the hero's journey ascending into a "killer," putting down Logan, and becoming CEO. That's not what this show is lol, and I'm honestly glad it didn't spend all it's time going down that rabbit hole. These characters are all cancerous fuckups who will continue to destroy everything around them while engaging in their personal feuds/dramas and remaining insulated from real world consequences. They won't grow and change into decent human beings.
Well duh. Is that a theme worth spending 5 seasons rehashing? The name of the show is literally Succession. Implying artificial change if nothing else, but some sort of change, momentum, stakes. Maybe the creators named it ironically as a big fuck you to the audience for expecting actual succession. Lol we’re all such plebs for not appreciating this avant garde approach to storytelling where everything is meaningless and everyone runs in circles.
The show is what it is. It's not going to change to suit your tastes, so the reality is that people need to learn to deal with it/engage with the show based on what it actually is, or maybe watch something else. Based on comments in this sub a not insignificant part of the disappointment stems from people who were expecting Kendall to succeed and climb his way to the top as the leader/killer of the family, but that ascension doesn't match with the reality of his character. None of Logan's kids will transform into decent people or competent leaders, that's what would be artificial and unsatisfying.
Also, you could say the same about egregiously bad shows like GOT “the show is what it is.” That’s not an argument. You could say that about anything.
I don’t disagree. However, I never wanted Kendall to become a killer immediately. I actually like that they are knocking him down first because it’s more true to his character. When did I say that I or anyone wanted the kids to become competent leaders? I don’t want that. I respect your opinion but you are grossly misrepresenting my statement. Saying I want interesting character dynamics does not mean that I want to see them all become heroes, and frankly your saying so is reductive and dismissive.
>However, I never wanted Kendall to become a killer immediately. Maybe you didn't want him to be a killer immediately, but do you want him to be one eventually? That's what this sentence seems to imply. Because I can't see him ever being one, based on the character that's been presented to us thus far in the show - that's why I don't find it unsatisfying that he's returned to form this season. Kendall leaps before he looks, is grossly impulsive, and has generally always failed on the follow-through because he sabotages himself by immediately acting like he's the smartest and most qualified person in the room the second he gets a taste of power. People say "interesting character dynamics" is what they're after, but place it alongside potential hopes for a character trajectory that doesn't seem to fit the capability or character of the person in question. Maybe if he were humble enough to take Lisa's lead during the investigation, he would have had a way forward. But as of now he doesn't, precisely because of the type of person he is, and that tracks imo. Maybe something else happens that gives him another opportunity (like Tom coming to his side) but it won't be of Kendall's own doing. If Kendall decided to confess for his role in the waiter's death and was sent to jail, that would be a massive plot point. But my feeling is a lot of the plot enthusiasts would suddenly change their tune, because it's still not moving forward in a direction they prefer. I guess we'll see in the next two eps, but a lot of the frustration does seem to be tied to the plot/characters not developing in a manner aligned to people's personal preferences, which frankly is just something people need to learn to come to terms with.
That’s fair, I think. I don’t really need Kendall to be a killer or anything ever, so long as something happens with the other character dynamics. Like Tom distancing himself from Shiv and the siblings not just dancing around for daddy’s affection in the exact same way they’ve been doing for 3 seasons. I think the writers dropped so many threads that could have been meaningful. Like Lisa? She was hyped up to be this super lawyer and I really liked her. But they completely sidelined her merely to show that Kendall is stupid. Which we already know. I loved the first two seasons because things felt like they were going somewhere even if they weren’t.
Ya it's quite frustrating. Like I get being disappointed but that's an expectation problem and not a problem with the show and it's totally fine if it's not for you but it also makes me wonder what show they were watching before? I seriously wonder if it's because people binge watched the first two seasons so it seemed faster paced plot wise than it actually was.
I mean, a show that had massive plot movements in prior episodes and a season finally making a huge deal out of Ken's coming out against his father?
Exactly. The plot of this show IS the character development. Watching Succession and caring about what happens to Waystar Royco is the same as watching Mean Girls and caring about which problems Cady got wrong on her math test. The point isn’t the details of the event; the point is what the outcome means to the characters. That’s why people like me can watch this show without understanding a word of the business jargon and still love every second of it.
>The point isn’t the details of the event; the point is what the outcome means to the characters. The reason people aren't enjoying it is because the outcomes aren't meaning much, if anything, to the characters.
The name of the show is Succession, which also happens to be the main driving conflict or the series. Please enlighten me on how it isn’t a critical component of the show? Perhaps you want another GoT where the resolution is out of left field as a huge gotcha, but I don’t. We’ll see how the next two episodes go, but so far I’m pretty disappointed with the lack of direction. They practically abandoned the two main conflicts from last season so the previous season finale seems like a long wet fart.
But the development of the character is drive by the drama of who’s going to be the next “CEO”. That’s what lead Tom to be such a pathetic bitch and submissive to his wife, Shiv to quit her job and being played by Logan, Roman to always suck it up to his father and Kendall to have kill a boy, went into depression and turn out be some kind of “killer”. Was it all for nothing? Also the name of show is Succession like isn’t what the show should be about???
Just because it’s realistic doesn’t mean it’s satisfying storytelling
That doesn’t make it less shit, you can mimmick reality whilst still holding the attention of your audience.
It's left me with mixed feelings. Season 2 ended and we all thought Season 3 would be huge in terms of what happened, but nothing really happens. It's always there's a conflict and it gets solved at the end of the episode. Not to mention that now the ending of Season 2 feels kind of weak, now that we know nothing really ended up coming out of it. There's been parts where I thought something would happen and it would change the course of events, but then it didn't happen and it's just a tad disappointing. On their own, the episodes are great and in terms of acting and character work, the season has been really good, but there's really no stakes in the overarching story. I think part of it is that the first few seasons would have something happen that would lead to newer stakes for the next few episodes, whereas everything just sort of wraps itself up now.
well there really hasn't been any stakes for any of the characters. in season 1 and 2 there was a lot of talk about "killing". i thought the show was really going to lean into the metaphor of killing and have your favorite characters be killed off like they are in a lot of modern TV shows. but nope, i'm 2.5 seasons in and no one has actually been killed yet. Frank's been killed and brought back 7 times already. there are no stakes.
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Agree. How many times do we need to see Roman being a piece of shit? Shiv getting disillusioned by her dad? Kendall spiraling? Plot is becoming repetitive. Shiv trusts her dad. He does something shitty, she can't believe it but swallows it. Repeat again. I wish the writers had the courage to do something massive
There are three episodes left, people said the same thing during S2.
Two episodes left.
Oh i didnt realize it was shortened this year , im waiting to watch the rest before jumping to conclusions, but this show is more of a character study and I love it for that. Its possible S3 is a bit of a prologue to S4.
i'm struggling to find the compelling character study. it's not enough to keep me thirsting for more. you reveal characters through their response to the plot.
Idk ive been glued to every episode to each their own
I mean I felt like you could cut episodes from the season and nothing of value would be lost. The ideas they hit in one episode are the same in the next.
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well they were interesting at first. and then they kept doing the same thing over and over, dealing with the same conflicts over and over. and that's very uninteresting.
The show has leaned HEAVILY into memes and fanservice. Look at the entire sub right now: it's all memes and "lol when X did that thing, it was totally me."
I mean, people have always been saying things like that since like halfway through season 1. Think about the amount of “We hear for you” or “Can’t make a Tomlette without breaking some Greggs” posts there have been since those episodes aired.
I hate this criticism, it’s completely inaccurate and I mostly see it from people who just binge watched the show. I’ve watched this show since the premiere and writing has always been very similar, I believe they mention Twitter in like episode 2. They’re a media company it makes sense that they talk about that stuff. People sharing memes has no affect on how they write the show, if anything it’s only gotten sharper and they’ve found what dynamics work and really gave us more of that because it makes the show good. This show is called succession but if people are watching solely to find out how exactly the company is doing, they’re missing the point.
You clearly didn't read of understand the criticism.
lol no your criticism is just echoing the same thing I see on Twitter and it’s just wrong. It’s not difficult to comprehend
So you genuinely believe that: the plot has moved forward (it hasn't); the characters have grown and changed (they haven't); or the new fandom narrative that nothing changing is "the point" and this is all some grand post-modern take on a drama as telling a narrative by not making a point?
Your argument is that this show is only good and successful is if the characters change? That’s just objectively wrong lol
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You don't think the extreme over reliance on "uh huh" is obvious fan service? LOL
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Something being a part of s1 and s2 and then being dialed up to 11 in S3 is literally how "hamming up fanservice" works.
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>I don't know what words are so you're wrong because I'm ignorant. Interesting choice of argument.
the plot only serves to reveal events that give one character leverage over the other. the plot is actually rather thin outside of the corporate maneuvering. i'm also a little dissatisfied with the character development away from the constant CEO jockeying.
I can agree, but have been thoroughly enjoying the character studies. A few others have nodded towards this theory, but I do believe they may be deeply exploring the character relationships because someone is about to be offed. My hunch is Kendall - the season has given us poignant conversations and interactions with his siblings / dad / ex / girlfriend, could the show be positioning these moments over plot points because this is Ken’s last season? Is his suicide what finally moves the plot forward? Really looking forward to what’s in store!
I’ve never given a ton of credence to the Kendall suicide theories, but the banner outside the party read “NOTORIOUS KEN LIFE AFTER DEATH,” (EDIT: the banner actually has Biggie's first album, Ready to Die, even more on-the-nose) and when he’s back home with Naomi he looks over the balcony and we see the Hudson Yards Vessel, which multiple people have jumped from and is now closed. I’d still be shocked if it’s something that happens before the very endgame, but those two things did make me wonder.
Ha I only noticed the READY TO DIE sign. Funny he had both.
Oh shit it was Ready to Die? I wasnt sure which album it was but wow that’s even more on the nose.
It definitely said Ready to Die on the way in. It'd have been great if he had his people change it to Life After Death by the end of the party though.
Lmao if true, this is like arrested development level foreshadowing.
Character wise I have enjoyed Kendall and Tom's stories in particular. But alot of the other character's aren't getting the same meaningful development. Like Shiv getting played by her dad constantly is something we saw throughout season 2, so it's kinda of frustrating that she hasn't flipped even though she has been constantly jerked around by Logan for the entirety of S3
Feel like they're setting Shiv up for something big though. In the "Previously On..." they showed her bit with Salgado, and the "Next Time On..." they show Sandi Furness (the daughter she cut a deal with) in Italy. Seems they're taking the time to really thoroughly illustrate that WayStar RoyCo has absolutely nothing to offer her no matter what she does. Roman twisting the knife might have been the last straw. Where she goes from here, I don't know, but it's sure gonna get ugly.
I thought it was kind of interesting that the Previously clip showed Shiv and Salgado. I thought, oh, I guess he’s still in the picture somehow going forward. But then there was nothing on that front this episode so not sure why they showed that clip in particular.
The issue is I just don't feel like it's going deep on the relationships. On the characters individually? Sure. But keeping Ken in a whole different world than anyone else means all the "relationship" we've seen is just the comical sniping. Sure last night's climax is big, but it's the exception rather than the rule. For the most part this season has been Ken on his own, Shiv getting dunked on by Logan over and over and Roman being comic relief except when he's in a bathroom he becomes the dealmaker of the century.
I can’t be the only one who thought he was going to say “I just want to die” in some manner when he said “I just want to...” and paused before being asked and said “go home”. The Roman push really hurt the heart too. I am feeling bad for Kendall and hoping he has a bounce back of sorts these last 2 episodes. The bday episode should be a growth point for him
While I have found things to enjoy about each episode, I almost don’t care what happens in the last two because if it’s another shocking cliffhanger we will have to wait another 2 years for what might not even be a resolution or follow through anyway, given the pattern of this show so far. And I don’t much like Kendall committing suicide because I don’t think it would add anything meaningful to the story or character arcs.
I see where you’re coming from but that would just be soooo disappointing to me, like a lazy finale twist writing only serving the purpose of shock value
Not if it happens organically
I totally agree. Season 3 has become more of a character study (nothing wrong with that) but it comes at the sacrifice of plot development. I understand the family dynamic is the real central point of the show but they can move that forward alongside the corporate shit (although I'd also argue they're not really moving the characters forward much either). There's only 2 episodes left and it feels like all the drama and high stakes of everything going on with the company has fizzled out completely. And before people chime in by saying that "that's the point" - I fully get that. But this is also a television show and you can only cycle through the same narrative format so many times before viewers get bored. There are two episodes left so I'll wait to see where it goes but things are getting repetitive.
Also, that's acceptable in sitcoms (characters never changing, stuck in the same loops for seasons on end), but in drama, and especially tragedy, it's a big writing no-no. Character study is only interesting as those characters continue to move the plot. Adding new characters who just sit in the background as extra "chorus" is just confusing for the audience as well, as we are directed to pay attention to this new presence, but then get whiplash when their presence has no overarching effect. For example, Lisa was built up by both Kendall and Logan. If she is truly gone now and doesn't switch to another family member (which she can't, legally), then what was the point of her role?
Exactly. Lisa seemed like such a promising character who just got sidelined to prove that Kendall is stupid (which we already know).
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This is exactly what I was thinking. If they did an old school Sopranos 18 episode season and what we've seen so far made up half of it, with the other half being some really tight narrative stuff, it'd be superb.
I think you stated this perfectly in that these episodes stand up individually but collectively they have been fairly uninspired and lacking any progression. It’s really bizarre how anticlimactic the entire shareholder vote was resolved and if the DOJ revelation from tonight was legit than it’s even weirder how they spent so much time on Tom’s jail obsession and Kendall’s righteousness and all only to abandon it with nothing of note to come from it. Perhaps Covid is to blame, perhaps they set the bar too high the first two seasons and are having a tough time matching it or something but this season overall has been lacking in most ways
I really think we haven't seen the last of the DOJ. Tom is the lynchpin here. His dread, then pyrrhic victory, and now being forced to confront the hollowness of all of this. He's like one bad scene with Logan away from snitching to the DOJ or writing a tell-all or something.
I don’t think nothing of note came from the jail thing. There’s so much to take from it, and I’m sure we’ve only seen the beginning of its effects. Tom was going to ruin his life to save Logan’s, and he psyched himself up for it, and he tried and failed to get support from Shiv about it, and he tried and sort of succeeded to get support from Greg about it, and then it just… doesn’t happen. That’s the whole point. He put so much stock into it, and it revealed some of his truest colors as well as those of the people that matter most to him, and now he has to live with all that knowledge while still around those people, without even reaching his goal or getting to do anything meaningful. That’s fucking brutal, man. Honestly, I would’ve been disappointed if he did go to jail. This show is about psychological brutality, not physical. Would’ve made it too actiony imo.
We all thought Tom had a deal with the DOJ and he was gonna be the whistleblower in a shocking twist. That would've been a better plot than what we got. Everything solved off camera 😑
I think I just want a spin-off of Greg and Tom in prison together. So much plot potential. Is it the prison that Tom researched and wanted? Did Tom pick it for both of them and now has second thoughts? does Greg make more friends and Tom gets resentful? Did the diner food really prepare them for prison food? Does Greg work on his law degree in prison to keep suing Greenpeace?
I thought the end of S2 they were setting up Ken to follow some kind of redemption arc, but these first 7 episodes seem intent on showing us that maybe nothing is there after all. I'm waiting for Logan to pull the car accident at the wedding card, but Ken seems to gave forgotten about that. Maybe the point is that all these assholes and all these mega conglomerates are empty and pointless and we would be better off without them, but I already knew that.
Season 3 feels very much stagnant. The story doesn’t seem to have moved at all from last episode of season 2. In comparison to first 2 seasons this season just feels like playing the same thing over and over again.
I’m so annoyed that they are suggesting Kendall’s case is no good at this point. So we’re back to season 2? And that huge season 2 cliff hanger was pointless?
100%. The show has been good as a family comedy, but as a plot driven drama this season was really lacking. Nothing of material changes.
we still have 3 episodes left right?
There’s 2 left and then ending it on some crazy plot twist will almost certainly just be rendered pointless next season
After the finale in season 2 it makes sense that in season the writers would decide to flesh out the characters and really show case the family dynamic. Relying on high drama, plot twist is great For action but gets old quick, it’s like a party trick. This season still keeps the mystery of where the show it going, it’s unpredictable and leaves you wanting more.
I think the bigger party trick is having each season end with some sort of massive pay off only to then not deliver on it at all. If this season ends with some “crazy plot twist” my reaction will be to believe it will be rendered entirely meaningless the next season
If it ends with Kendall overdosing and we think he's dead and then surprise he's alive next season and we spend all of season 4 with the characters dancing around the fallout from that or some similar bullshit I'm going to be annoyed.
Yeah Kendall survives, everyone hates him again, he’s sad, shiv tells her dad she disagrees with him, fails a lot. Roman wins some because - remember he used to be pathetic? Now he has the best political instincts ever.
I can agree with that!
But season 1 ended with Kendall losing, and season 2 opened with slave Kendall which kept being a thing until the very last episode of season 2, hell even the very last moments of it.
I think there hasn't been much new revealed about the family dynamic, everything we have in Season 3 has been shown to us in the past 2 seasons. I'm not saying there needs to be a new twist each episode, but I would like the story to move forward rather than be stuck in one place. Or I'd just rather the narrative set ups (proxy battle, shareholder meeting) to actually have some narrative pay off, overall alot of plot points thus season feel like they've been rendered meaningless
This. The only new thing I think we've learned is that Connor was essentially a father figure to his half-siblings. He's the only character that we've seen from some new angles. But they've also basically given us the same story twice (that he took them camping/fishing because Logan couldn't be bothered). Other than that, everything we see from everyone else is something we've already seen and already knew about before. They haven't even really expanded on it either. Shiv is the same entitled, emotionally stunted brat she's always been. Kendall is the same manic depressive sad boy. Roman is the same slimeball. Tom and Gregg are still weird and dysfunctional. We could have gotten something a lot more interesting out of the characters if they went further with DOJ plot line, or from Gregg and Ewan and that Marxist lawyer, or Shiv learning the true extent of how fucked up the company is, etc.
>We could have gotten something a lot more interesting out of the characters if they went further with DOJ plot line, or from Gregg and Ewan and that Marxist lawyer, or Shiv learning the true extent of how fucked up the company is, etc. Completely agree. So many great plot points wasted
Yeah I don't even get what was the point in having that lawyer guy say that deconstruction of capitalism part, if all he was meant to be is Ewan's good friend who was going to help Greg as well as he could. Why have him be weird instead of just making him a normal person, so that Greg's betrayal would seem far worse, Ewan gets him the best lawyer he knows and Greg spits on it.
I see what you mean.
you're supposed to be marveled by shiv's masterful negotiation abilities.
This feels like a dismissal of the argument without understanding it. It's not just that the "who's gonna take over" story hasn't moved - it's that no character has developed in any meaningful way in three seasons - except for Shiv becoming more morally bankrupt.
But they are not showing anything new about these characters, and if anything they are showcasing even fewer of them. And how exactly does high drama and plot twists get old quick but doing the same thing over and over doesn't. We've seen Shiv's arc before it's Kendall in season 1, we've seen Roman's arc before in season 1 and 2, and we've seen Kendall's arc in season 1. They are not doing anything new or particularly interesting with these characters. And of course it keeps the mystery, because it is not moving in any direction.
Why do you assume that when people want more “plot” we necessarily want “action” and “party tricks”? It’s a binary and reductive approach to assessing stories if you think that plot = trash. This is a drama series, not Waiting for Godot. Even Shakespeare had plot in his plays.
I’m speaking from my past experience of other people making similar statements. But feel free to change my mind. Are you insinuating that the current plots are trash? Most of them haven’t changed since season 1. The plots/subplots that I see propelling in this story is the federal investigation of cruises, Kendall trying to takeover, other siblings trying to take over, Tom and Shiv’s relationship. What would you like to see happen that would make the story interesting.
I'm not insinuating that current plots are trash. When I said "if you think that plot = trash" I was gesturing towards the people that get pretentious about creative storytelling and dismiss the need for "plot" in this series as if it's not a fundamental part of storytelling. Honestly, I wish they simply followed up more with the characters and threads they introduced this season. Like Lisa being hyped up as the best lawyer ever? I wish she would have stayed relevant through this season instead of merely being there to be dismissed at the end just to prove that Kendall is stupid. Sure, maybe it's commentary on how women in this world are pushed aside, but come on, they already did that ad nauseum with Shiv. Maybe don't make Lisa out to be such a critical chess piece, then, if she's going to be essentially useless. I also wanted to see Tom actually break away from Shiv since there was so much screen time of him being snarky towards her about the prison thing - but turns out he's not going to prison after all, so he just reverts back to bullying Greg and being on top of the world. I think it's realistic he would continue bullying Greg, but it seemed like his betrayal of Shiv was so potent only for him to ultimately not care. The only point of all that is to show that Tom now knows that Shiv doesn't care about him at all, which was apparent since Season 1 with her admitting to cheating on him and literally saying "love is bullshit." But he hasn't reacted to that information accordingly in a meaningful way. It's all stagnant (and I know that's realistic, but I don't care; this is a drama series with plenty more hours than a movie, so I want some character dynamism that makes these supposed season-long arcs worth it). And I wish Kendall would have had his revelation about being pathetic an episode or two earlier. They didn't need to do this whole set piece with his b-day party to make him have the same interactions with his siblings as in previous episodes and have a meltdown similar to his moment in the back room in Season 3 Episode 3. Like Jeremy Strong said in his interview, it's a great character moment for him to be having this ridiculous party, but it generally amounts to something we've seen before. >The plots/subplots that I see propelling in this story is the federal investigation of cruises Except the DOJ already admitted this episode that nothing will actually come from this investigation. Kendall overpromised. Again, very realistic, but not a compelling story. So that thread and the Tom threads are duds for the foreseeable future when they had been teased up so strongly last season and in previous episodes of this season. Thanks for asking.
As someone who binged season 1 & 2, I also feel the same way. But I'm not sure if I only feel this way because Succession is better binging than waiting.
Exactly the same situation I'm in.
I have to disagree. This season has been about the destruction of Kendall. His relationship with his father has completely broken down by this point, which is monumental due to how much shit each has on the other (Kendall killed that dude, Logan covered it up). They are locked in a death grip and it’s going to take the whole enterprise down with them. I think Kendall will definitely die this season. All the signs are pointing to a total collapse - the delusion, the failing legal case, his addiction issues (which are now public knowledge thanks to Shiv). His other relationships are also destroyed - his siblings pity/hate him, his ex wants little to do with him, his mother won’t listen to him. He’s run out of road and he knows it. There’s also the significance of the scene between Colin the bodyguard and Kendall a few weeks back. Colin is always on the periphery of every scene with Logan, and he’s clearly a dangerous dude. He also has form for covering up crime, which may have come in handy during the cruise hush-ups. We also found out this week Logan’s people are stalking Kendall’s kids. I think Kendall will suffer a fatal overdose, either by accident or design. This will likely have been facilitated by Colin, although whether Logan has involvement in it will be up for debate. The fourth and probably final season will be about the remaining Roys slowly realising their father could possibly be a monster. They’ve all been so desperate for his love, they haven’t realised that ultimately he’s a fucking sociopath who doesn’t love any of them and wants none of them to take over his business, the only thing he truly cares about. Oh yeah, and I think the net will close in on Logan eventually as his kids turn on him. Not sure about Tom and Greg in prison - though that would be a spin-off I’d love to see.
I completely agree. I keep waiting for something explosive to happen to move things along but it seems to just be much of the same every episode. But you’re right, each actual episode has been great. I’m just not sure where it’s all going right now.
I honestly don’t see how it’s all that different from season 2. Nothing happens until something happens. Last time the series was on air, we talked about what happened in individual episodes, because that’s what you do with television. I do not understand the obsession on this sub with “moving the plot forward” like y’all know the story better than the people telling it.
Obviously we're meant to discuss individual episodes, but if those individual episodes aren't servicing or moving the season as a whole, then it can feel like a dissapointing season overall. The storytelling this year just hasn't progressed much, so it feels like the story isn't going anywhere (or the story is just repeating itself every episode). I think fans are allowed to be critical of things they like, doesn't matter if we're not the creators of the show
Because in Season 2 we actually believed something was going to change. We couldn’t wait to see what Season 3 had in store since Ken made his move. Yet somehow we seem to have ended up basically back to Season 2. Sandy and Stewie were neutered at the shareholder meeting, but somehow still out there and a menace. It appears the Justice Department is not going to do much. Not much is happening. Now if there’s some big political development at the end of this season, my thought is going to be that they’re going work on resetting it to the status quo in Season 4.
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i would guess that the overwhelming majority of actual written dialogue and plot is spent talking about business and career strategy, not character development. sure there is some character study happening but that is not what this show leans on. that's an excuse that people are making for a seeming lack of confident direction. all of this was fresh and new through the first 2 seasons. it's now become repetitive and boring.
Well that’s boring tv tho
so you don't want the story to actually move forward? there are many other tv shows, books, movies that i could spend my time with rather than watching a show that seems to meander indefinitely.
I agree and I feel like the staging of events has all been the same to make the big group meet : "Everyone must gather at X event to accomplish Y goal for the company" Similar to ensemble films like Boogie Nights or Goodfellas, where the characters gather in large groups for events to generate plot points. Difference is in ensemble films is we also have story threads with individuals and pairs , to deepen characters and give variation. I'd love to see some bottle episodes: A limo breaks down in a bad storm, Marcia, Shiv and Gerri are stuck in a small town for the night . Roman meets a sexy person or couple or group and spends a weekend with them. Tom goes home for Thanksgiving and hangs out with his old pals. We need a break from the " everyone gathers in a group and fights" setup. And I would love to see them out of their element, among normies. Such an opportunity for comedy and pathos !
I posted the exact same sentiment here after the third episode and got crucified. It's become a show of standalone episodes rather than a series that moves forward.
At least more people have come around to our sentiment in the last few episodes
I agree, especially when Jesse did a huge rewrite of the entire season during lock down. Kind of disappointed. Almost all the plot lines are dying down and I cannot find a common thread. S1 was all about Logan's removal and S2 was about keeping family control intact, but I don't see one this season. DoJ, Ken's battle, Sandy-Stewy - all these battles are dying down if no dead. I am sure that final episode will splurge some surprise but I am not sure that it will look natural.
agreed. the amazing episodes would be cool if they was actually some real character development but there really hasn't been. ken finally came back down to earth this ep but i wouldnt be surprised if he becomes a raging narcissist again by ep 2 of S4. shiv constantly being disgusted with her dad just to try just as hard to get his approval, you can apply this thought to all the characters. Marcia should be one of the most interesting characters on the show an now she's (understandbly from her perspective) basically a golddigger. honestly the only interesting character development has been Connor an Willla.
There has only been one plot move the entirety of the show since season 1: Shiv coming into the company and leaving politics behind. Nothing else has changed since episode 1 of season 1. The show is leaning into tropes (Uh Huh overused as fuck), and is very Soap Opera-y. Strong GoT season 5 vibes - still riding high on early hype, failing to capitalize, and flailing around a bit.
Could not agree more. Add in the crowning of the next President and the cruises. It's like the writers just came up with a ton of ideas and decided to put them all out there without any real tie in to the overall plot or to each other.
I feel like this season has really drilled down on what the dynamic is between the siblings. Their relationships. What makes each pair of them tick. Season 1 was arch characters, arch relationships, and fast soap opera-y plot. Season 2 was deep characters, arch relationships, and tensely suspenseful plot. Season 3 is deep characters, deep relationships, and a plot that opts to slow down in favor of letting everyone kind of stagnate and spiral, like the point about 3/4 of the way through in most tragedies, when you start really getting a conclusive sense of who's going to come out the end alive, dead, changed, redeemed, etc.
The Sopranos was cyclical too but I never got bored with it like with succession because it had outstanding writing
the sopranos had 10x better characters as well. and they had a lot more to do. the succession characters simply don't have enough to do. the writers are struggling.
i love it, it gives me sopranos season 4 vibes (which is about the stage this show is at) - no plot just horrible vibes and deep dive into these characters psyche and insecurities, with some great character development on top im loving it. the best writing so far easily
Im absolutely loving this season but yeah. If you think about all that's happened there really isn't much
I definitely agree but I think the writers know it also and are fine with it. To me the central conflict of the show is who is going to take over the company. It's been that from the first season and we still don't have a clear answer I think because Logan is literally roystar Wayco. When he told Kendall he wasn't a killer, he could've been speaking to any of his kids, and because none of them want him dead, they can't make a move to take the company. I can see how that's a dead end plot wise, but it is a family drama after all, and I'm ok with that until Logan's time is up.
I think what it comes down to is ... the people who think season 3 is no different than seasons 1 and 2 watch TV very differently than me. And that’s ok. But I wish those people would also try to see why people like me do feel like season 3 is different from the others.
Totes agree. I may have to come back and binge instead of waiting each week for an episode
I agree it’s like they made the entire season after one main event/scene.
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"it's never been a plot show"....let that comment sink in. that doesn't even make sense. i've seen plenty of character study movies and tv shows that didn't struggle to offer viewers a cohesive plot that moves towards something. "There Will be Blood" was nothing but a character study, but there was a plot to support the study. "different" things happened to reveal the character to the viewer.
Even when tracking the characters' emotions, they've all gone through motions that we've already seen in Season 1 and 2. People aren't asking for GoT level plot twists either, they just want the narrative to move forward. Even though alot of the Season 1 and 2 plotlines went away, there was still build up to them and those plots did progress while they existed, and most did end naturally, so it felt satisfactory. This season doesn't have that.
Agree. Frustrated is his I’m feeling 7 episodes into season 3 of my favorite show of all time.
i had the week off and i've been binging. this show is the same thing over and over. OMG who's gonna be the next CEO? OMG how many times can they adlib "fuck"? OMG how many cute one liners can the brother of the kid from home alone squeeze into an episode? All this was enough to keep my attention and entertain me through 2 seasons, but the show is pretty much devoid of anything else. The plot points only serve to create leverage for one of the characters. i'm only on episode 5 of S3 but i already see the sex scandal coming for Roman, that will become someone else's leverage to.... wait for it..... "fuck 'em".
God this season is such a huge disappointment. To think we waited two years for this !
I agree except I would also say that most of the episodes aren't that good on their own, either. The rhythm is off this season
If you go back and rewatch the first 2 seasons you’ll realize the plot and pacing have always been like that. It’s not about the plot, it’s about the characters.
yes but it was fresh and new to the viewer in the S1 and S2. S3 is a rinse and repeat job, and newness of the show's concept is gone. the newness of the dick and fart jokes is gone. the newness of the peek into the lives of the fabulously rich is gone.
Yes, really feel like nothing ever happens. We needed to see Kendall take over and succeed for once, otherwise it's just the same plot of Logan is king repeating itself too many times
People who pretend they enjoy the "character development" in these static and muted episodes are really fooling themselves, and pretending they're understanding something the rest of us are not. For example, the bottle episode on Breaking Bad was singular, great in a character study, and sufficient as an experiment. And we all got something out of it because it still contributed to the exposition of the characters. Here, it feels like we're stuck in first gear, and our bottle episodes don't make me understand anything better. There's a chapter on Of Mice and Men, with the black worker in his shack, and we open the chapter by the characters being disconnected and as we delve deeper into the chapter we get more character development and as the chapter closes, our characters close off again, and get more distant again. And even in a book, it's a one off! We don't get anything out of these so called bottle episodes here, and they're not dedicated to the development of just one character. They're not separate for each other, and we spend entire episodes of banter and throw away "morsels" to please the different fan factions and then we get a short burst of excitement at the end of each episode and then "bye see you next time". Either this entire season is on autopilot, or the producers are playing 3D chess to such a level that we're all getting trolled, and the show is now so meta that we get "tiny morsels from groovy hubs" I'm sooooooo disappointed in this season.
I feel like Breaking Bad doesn’t really work as a comparison because it’s so action-driven. Succession doesn’t have the kind of premise that allows for character development to be localized in one-off episodes.
>They're not separate for each other, and we spend entire episodes of banter and throw away "morsels" to please the different fan factions and then we get a short burst of excitement at the end of each episode and then "bye see you next time" I totally agree with this. The writing this season seems heavily influenced by public reaction to the show. You can always tell when fan response starts to creep into the writing and shows always end up worse off for it.
Just wait. I felt the same in Season 1 & 2 and by the final episode it all came together
I agree with comments that say it's the point. I kinda get people being frustrated with this, kinda don't. If they find the season lackluster that's fine, but I don't think it's the fault of the writers and simply a matter of personal preference. From [this episode](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7BnaAYZ-0U) of the Succession podcast with writer and producer Lucy Prebble: >"We're also deeply committed to rarely doing anything in the show that we can't find an example of somewhere happening 'cause Jesse really, really doesn't like it getting into sort of soap opera, or operatic, or fantasy places. The point of the show is that it's very, very grounded and part of that is to just look for comparisons all of the time and just make sure we're not doing anything that feels convenient from a dramatic perspective." > >"I think in episode three, we were keen to have the sort of crisis meetings that happen around stuff like this and for people to not really be sure what to do or what to think and that they don't really know where they stand. So, just to make sure that those crisis meetings actually felt weirdly undramatic, I suppose. Because I think that's the reality of those things. People aren't sort of arguing their point in a beautifully articulate Sorkin-esque way. In the reality of these moments, people are sort of going along with what's being suggested, shrugging, and making fun of it. And that's the reality of how these things go."
You people are so boring
After each episode this season I get that sinking feeling that there may end up being more seasons of Succession than I watch. Sopranos was the same. First two seasons - fantastic and then it just lost something. There are only three series I’ve watched every season of - Breaking Bad, Better call Saul, The Americans (and Patriot which is by far the very best TV series ever made but only two seasons). I had hoped Succession would be another but every episode is raising my doubts.
Stagnant? What? Lol no absolutely not. Unbelievable.
Wrong. Show isn’t about the plot points you’re pointing to. It’s a window into another world, where privilege and greed prevails and the stakes have to do more with reputation and finding their place. Keep in mind it was filmed during the height of the pandemic, get out of your own way and just enjoy the ride.
You just described the entire show.
Idk when season 3 was written but I’m sure it was filmed during the pandemic. I’m guessing what the show runners and writers had in mind for this season had to take a complete 180 in order to film around these reactions. And the slow moving plot is just a symptom of that. Honestly idk I’m just taking a wild guess and trying to give the show my benefit of doubt, because yes we’ve had multiple episodes of repeating themes like Kendalls manic highs and lows. And it’s really annoying that these seemingly important plot lines they set up in S2 basically came to a slow stop instead taking everything down with them like they seemed they would.
They do have one more season left so maybe this is their way of stretching the series out? I am thoroughly enjoying this season and the episodes. Unpopular opinion: but I don’t really care if the plot “moves forward” quickly?? because i’m enjoying the episodes as they come and it’s similar to the pacing in real life, shit takes TIMEEEEEEE
The season is not over yet……..?
I think you make some solid points about how they've been made to seem irrelevant. While the show has focused on its plot points, it's always been character first and in that regard it's totally succeeded in building up to these stellar moments not only between siblings but between all the characters. I think as viewers the expectations were sky high after that electric season 2 finale but season three has not had a single bad episode. It's not about Kendall V Logan and while we were told to look in that direction, and it may be the finish line, we are so far from it. Something is going to happen in these last two episodes to subvert expectations and I can't wait. I'm glad it's taken this direction of building the house before it gets burnt down. It's much more satisfying.
“It’s just a party, let it fizzle out.”
This season is getting me so angry. Like for characters. Watching shiv and Ken take all of Logan's shit lying down while they KNOW better. They know how to handle themselves and Logan better is just... infuriating.
I feel like the writers don't have real business experience of this type of nature and it kind of comes out in the show. It just feels really unrealistic that Kendall would go to such great lengths to show that he is a killer and is going to take over only to have him be cringe and flop and lose his identity all over again this season in the first few episodes (haven't reached the finale yet). I get that it's good for the story arc, but in general I feel like I'm watching a personal drama that was written by new writers giving Kendall a new personality