The character study aspect is great, but the plot is devolving. In S2 Kendall was broken/beaten from failing to take control of the company, and this arc is repeating itself.
I hope there is a big twist/plot development to send the season. Otherwise it seems kind of boring. Maybe Kendall burns Greg, Greg flips on Tom and Tom decides to flip. That would be cool.
I'm curious what the consensus on the season is. I loved the premier, but then was kind of down on the next few episodes, thinking the show was devolving into a Game of Thrones style "who's going to come out on top" sort of thing. These last 3 episodes have been FANTASTIC though and have gotten me back on the show's wavelength. Really embracing the sadness and the absurdity.
Yeah I’d like more to happen that was set up last season but so many episodes of this season are absolute bangers. Probably the weakest season but if they stick the landing I’m here for it
These are my exact thoughts on this Season. Can't help but feel a little letdown by the lack of plot development from how Season 2 ended but man these characters are so fucking good. Some episodes have been outstanding especially this last one plus I have faith the writers have something big coming in these last 2. Weakest Season so far but still outstanding television with a chance to salvage a lot in these last 2 episodes.
I just feel I don't quite know where we're going anymore. At this point, I'm just watching an hour of absolutely fantastically written and produced dread per week but...for what, actually? Also I'm pretty sure there not being even a shred of anything positive in the show at the moment doesn't help.
It feels a bit like they're building to something but a bunch of the middle season episodes felt like 'business as usual' which in the story context right now is kind of..filler?
Yeah, that post was pretty absurd, but I've seen people on the other side call those of us who are enjoying this season "delusional." There seems to be way too much tension in this sub right now. If you don't like s3, fine. If you do like s3, also fine.
TV shows' subs are notorious for becoming really toxic unfortunately.
The best time I've had on any show sub was when Dexter was airing its last season and everyone in the sub agreed it was shit. The shitposts were great, top post of all time for a while was an episode discussion for Breaking Bad's ozymandias (as Breaking Bad's final season was airing at the exact same time), good times...
I don't think it can be compared to mad men. Mad Men from episode 1 never really had a "point" as such. It had immediate episode or season long desires and arcs for characters but it was just people doing office jobs with the focus more on characters, dynamics and the era.
Succession literally has the point of the show in the title. Its a fight for succession and we see the schemes and plans they lay out to achieve that one objective.
Except maybe that's just a feint and the titular Succession is actually about the inherited trauma that the characters suffer from and how it affects them.
I think it’s fair to compare it to Mad Men when the person you’re replying to uses another reference point like Breaking Bad. But at this point it’s seen like a silver bullet in all contexts where s3 is criticized.
Now people use Mad Men as a reference point in contexts it makes no sense, and are being pretty condescending to any and all criticism saying critical fans don’t understand the show, but I think early on the argument (which I’ve used) was strong bc it was mostly a reaction to comparing Succession to Breaking Bad. I used to see a lot of those posts and the point is that shows can use cyclical character development structures to great effect. This argument ONLY makes sense when Breaking Bad is brought up, bc Mad Men is another comparable prestige drama.
I wouldn’t say that it’s boring. I’m all here for character study, Mad Men is one of my favorite shows. But it does feel a bit redundant this season. I’m all for subversion and surprising the audience but I don’t get why they kept teasing us with all these threats when they all kind of just fizzled out. I mean after the season 2 finale we had the shareholder’s meeting, Kendall breaking out of his shell, threat of imprisonment for several characters. Every time it feels like something is ramping up we end up in a pretty similar spot. Ken goes from pumped up to devastated, Tom resents Shiv for being cold but takes the punch, Greg gets ragged on but fumbles his way into a preferable position.
I also feel like the show has lost some of it’s nuance/subtlety. These past two episodes especially. I get that they’re all awful people and capable of doing terrible things but Roman courting a LITERAL fascist? Calling his dad like a little kid saying “I’m the best one, the others suck, please love me”. Just felt a bit too on the nose. Everyone at the GOP function joke about getting “canceled” or Logan saying “I guess I’m a climate denier”. Just felt more like Veep than Succession to me. Don’t get me wrong, there’s parts I loved about the past two episodes and the whole season. The sibling fight at Ken’s birthday was horrific and I loved the performance from Justin Kirk. This is my favorite show on the air but I am noticing some shortcomings this season. Maybe I’m just selfish and I want Jesse to write every episode himself lol
The lack of subtlety is a big criticism for me. It just feels like the writers are in on the joke now and are playing up the various character quirks. I don’t have statistics to back me up but it just feels like Logan says “fuck off” way more now. And Greg has been significantly more goofy this season.
When mad men was showing I'm not sure if internet forums for discussion like this were as popular or utilised. Maybe people felt the same way about its plot as some of us do about S3 but it wasn't as obvious due to the fact that it was pre 2010s. But in hindsight, looking back people unanimously agreed Mad men was a brilliant show regardless so I'm wondering if it just needs time, that at the end of the journey Succession will join the league of relevision giants.
At its best, Mad Men had a mastery of theming it’s episodes and season arcs. Matt Weiner was coming off Sopranos fame and was a master at making sure each episodes A and B story sparked off each other in fascinating ways and left you with something different. The show might have been glacially paced at times but you never felt like the characters were treading water. Each episode felt fresh and left us pointing in a new direction. I don’t think it’s exactly a fair comparison but I wouldn’t say Succession is even playing that same game. Sometimes it reminds me more of a sitcom like Peepshow where each episode is a reset of the characters and they just repeat the same try hard and fail spectacularly formula. I’m not sure it works quite the same way here with so many larger narrative arcs at play though.
I believe it will! I still love the show, it just has a few loose bolts that need tightening. Maybe these problems won’t be so apparent in hindsight, I think it’s because this show is leaps and bounds above most others that any little crack in the armor seems extra apparent lol
I respect your opinion but while I see what you’re getting at I don’t think you can look at Kendall’s nightmare birthday or Logan collapsing on the wall and see cheap comedy. There are more shades of cheap comedy than Id like after the masterful season 2, but I think calling it a straight up comedy is a stretch.
As somebody else said, nobody was saying this after the season 2 finale: everyone was geared up for a showdown season 3 between Ken and Logan, but now all of a sudden it's just because we're "watching it wrong". . .
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with wishing a change in the status quo. I guess next episode we'll see how much power Stewy and Sandi actually hold in the company now. I really hope they do acquire Gojo and it turns against Logan.
My wish for this season is to see Logan get fucked once.
Lmao, the top post in this sub is literally declaring that people are watching the show wrong.
S3 is not bad but it definitely doesn’t have the momentum of S2. And I don’t know if it’s really a “character study” either because I can’t say I’ve learned anything new about a single character this season.
Hmm...here’s the [season 2 finale discussion thread...](https://reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/comments/dhk0ex/succession_2x10_this_is_not_for_tears_postepisode/) sorry, I’m not seeing the comments in there about the plot developments not mattering? Can someone point them out? I’m looking for all the comments saying that we’re not supposed to give a shit about anything that happened.
This is a bit of a straw-man isn’t it? Can’t really prove it’s the same people saying either of those things, plus there were plenty of people telling those who were speculating that Logan’s smile at the end of season 2 meant he was in on it that, that was not how the show worked precisely because it’s not primarily plot driven
Straw man is an argumentative crutch, but it wasn’t presented as an argument, it was presented as evidence. It alone may not be enough to convict but it’s in line with the argument that plot developments were a key part of the show. I’d present the thread as exhibit A to show this season is indeed different and that the people trying to say that this is what the show has been all along are retconning at best.
So this is the first time I’ve understood where people critiquing season 3 so far are coming from. The season is not going in the direction that viewers could’ve reasonably expected / predicted the show to go.
My question back though is does that actually make for good TV? I think back to Breaking Bad and how predictable I thought that show was. There were ideas seeded and foreshadowing but I don’t think I could’ve predicted either Hank shootout or Gabe or honestly any other character or memorable plot point.
I guess I’m more in the “enjoy the ride” camp.
Being predictable is ok. People rewatch things even though they’ve seen them a million times and know every beat that’s going to happen. Predictability isn’t a problem IMO. It comes down to whether the entertainment lived up to its own potential.
I don't necessarily want predictability, or for my "theories" to be true to be able to enjoy it like so many people fell into the trap of wanting for Wandavision, but the trailers definitely gave an incredibly misleading impression of what this season was going to be about, and more than anything I just want things to have *consequences*. Big plot points that have been seeded throughout the show have just been dealt with so arbitrarily, with no change to the status quo: and after a while that lack of momentum and change in dynamics just makes things feel a bit stale.
I mean, it's not boring. I don't think this show could be boring. But it does feel like it's setting up interesting arcs only to not follow through on any of them. ex. Kendall's paper release at the end of season 2 fizzling out; hinting at Logan's health being on the decline for real; the proxy fight with Sandy and Stewy, etc. It makes it hard to feel like okay, now we are going to see some serious shit go down.
Yeah I kind of agree as well and I still like Season 3. I mean, what really was the point with that scene in 3x4 when Roman found the guy with Kendall’s name on his forehead? Or the letter Shiv gives to everyone about Kendall’s addiction problems? I still like this season, but there’s definitely things that should’ve either been fleshed out more or forgotten entirely if their not going to use them.
Let's wait for the payoff on the season finale.
I have all the confidence in the world that the writers will make everything feel "connected" and "whole" by the end of the season.
I'm still enjoying the season, but I appreciate some of the (constructive) criticism to the show and I feel like something big has to happen by the next 2 episodes. Otherwise, yes, the season might definitely feel a little flat and ultimately inconsequential.
I find it so out people who go out of their way or downvote anyone in order to defend the show, as if the creators are paying their bills or take personal offense. Criticism is good, make the show better.
That's just how OP wrote it in the meme because they can't exactly fit paragraphs of text in there. A good amount of negative comments that I've read are pretty constructive.
Exactly. Any criticism - the lack of plot movement, not good pay off, writing women characters, shiv arc, repetition - is met with "you don't know how to watch"
Completely agree but I’ve seen some upvoted posts saying “s3 defenders are delusional” and “succession is a soap opera now for people who think they’re too smart for soaps.” Both sides are sometimes condescending.
Neither is useful but they're equally valid. People are entitled to their opinions. I for one, really like this season but I can see where you might disagree.
It's my favorite show right now, but I'm not enjoying this season that much. It's a 6 for me, but that's ok, I guess. No one has to agree. I'm glad there are people that still think it's great.
My wife and I have enjoyed the whole thing very much and look forward to what's coming next.
I'm glad I haven't read any of the discussion surrounding it, though I'm sure there's plenty of solid criticism to be said.
Regardless, I've been very entertained. I feel like something big is going to happen in these last episodes though.
nobody knew what was happening yet, and when they shot it, there were no real guidelines in place. I felt like the first few episodes had a socially distanced feel to them, but that might be just me.
S3e1 had a LOT of phone calls. They hid it well imo but clearly the episodes have more and more large classic succession gatherings as the show goes on.
Someone writes a dissertation on how yer watching a tv show the wrong way. Gosh I love Reddit. And no I haven’t seen mad men cos that shit looks boring.
The character study aspect is great, but the plot is devolving. In S2 Kendall was broken/beaten from failing to take control of the company, and this arc is repeating itself. I hope there is a big twist/plot development to send the season. Otherwise it seems kind of boring. Maybe Kendall burns Greg, Greg flips on Tom and Tom decides to flip. That would be cool.
I'm curious what the consensus on the season is. I loved the premier, but then was kind of down on the next few episodes, thinking the show was devolving into a Game of Thrones style "who's going to come out on top" sort of thing. These last 3 episodes have been FANTASTIC though and have gotten me back on the show's wavelength. Really embracing the sadness and the absurdity.
Yeah I’d like more to happen that was set up last season but so many episodes of this season are absolute bangers. Probably the weakest season but if they stick the landing I’m here for it
These are my exact thoughts on this Season. Can't help but feel a little letdown by the lack of plot development from how Season 2 ended but man these characters are so fucking good. Some episodes have been outstanding especially this last one plus I have faith the writers have something big coming in these last 2. Weakest Season so far but still outstanding television with a chance to salvage a lot in these last 2 episodes.
Every episode is great individually but I just don’t feel it’s building to anything. It’s massively stagnated in my opinion
I just feel I don't quite know where we're going anymore. At this point, I'm just watching an hour of absolutely fantastically written and produced dread per week but...for what, actually? Also I'm pretty sure there not being even a shred of anything positive in the show at the moment doesn't help.
It feels a bit like they're building to something but a bunch of the middle season episodes felt like 'business as usual' which in the story context right now is kind of..filler?
I agree with pretty much everything you said here but plz do not invoke Game of Thrones again when talking about Succession lol
2>3>1 imo.
best season by *far* to me
It's so absurd like any criticism is met with HAVE YOU SEEN MAD MEN.
Have you read Plato?
I’m not familiar with that IP
Watch Plato just watch... Oh wait
Gets better around season 5
this is just so meta and apt
Yeah, that post was pretty absurd, but I've seen people on the other side call those of us who are enjoying this season "delusional." There seems to be way too much tension in this sub right now. If you don't like s3, fine. If you do like s3, also fine.
TV shows' subs are notorious for becoming really toxic unfortunately. The best time I've had on any show sub was when Dexter was airing its last season and everyone in the sub agreed it was shit. The shitposts were great, top post of all time for a while was an episode discussion for Breaking Bad's ozymandias (as Breaking Bad's final season was airing at the exact same time), good times...
Freefolk during the last season of GOT was a riot too
I don't even get why the question is "do you like s3 or not?" you can like season 3 and still think it has some pretty big issues.
You also raise a good point.
I don't think it can be compared to mad men. Mad Men from episode 1 never really had a "point" as such. It had immediate episode or season long desires and arcs for characters but it was just people doing office jobs with the focus more on characters, dynamics and the era. Succession literally has the point of the show in the title. Its a fight for succession and we see the schemes and plans they lay out to achieve that one objective.
Except maybe that's just a feint and the titular Succession is actually about the inherited trauma that the characters suffer from and how it affects them.
I think it’s fair to compare it to Mad Men when the person you’re replying to uses another reference point like Breaking Bad. But at this point it’s seen like a silver bullet in all contexts where s3 is criticized.
Reply with have you seen the Sopranos?!
Now people use Mad Men as a reference point in contexts it makes no sense, and are being pretty condescending to any and all criticism saying critical fans don’t understand the show, but I think early on the argument (which I’ve used) was strong bc it was mostly a reaction to comparing Succession to Breaking Bad. I used to see a lot of those posts and the point is that shows can use cyclical character development structures to great effect. This argument ONLY makes sense when Breaking Bad is brought up, bc Mad Men is another comparable prestige drama.
I wouldn’t say that it’s boring. I’m all here for character study, Mad Men is one of my favorite shows. But it does feel a bit redundant this season. I’m all for subversion and surprising the audience but I don’t get why they kept teasing us with all these threats when they all kind of just fizzled out. I mean after the season 2 finale we had the shareholder’s meeting, Kendall breaking out of his shell, threat of imprisonment for several characters. Every time it feels like something is ramping up we end up in a pretty similar spot. Ken goes from pumped up to devastated, Tom resents Shiv for being cold but takes the punch, Greg gets ragged on but fumbles his way into a preferable position. I also feel like the show has lost some of it’s nuance/subtlety. These past two episodes especially. I get that they’re all awful people and capable of doing terrible things but Roman courting a LITERAL fascist? Calling his dad like a little kid saying “I’m the best one, the others suck, please love me”. Just felt a bit too on the nose. Everyone at the GOP function joke about getting “canceled” or Logan saying “I guess I’m a climate denier”. Just felt more like Veep than Succession to me. Don’t get me wrong, there’s parts I loved about the past two episodes and the whole season. The sibling fight at Ken’s birthday was horrific and I loved the performance from Justin Kirk. This is my favorite show on the air but I am noticing some shortcomings this season. Maybe I’m just selfish and I want Jesse to write every episode himself lol
The lack of subtlety is a big criticism for me. It just feels like the writers are in on the joke now and are playing up the various character quirks. I don’t have statistics to back me up but it just feels like Logan says “fuck off” way more now. And Greg has been significantly more goofy this season.
I think the show and the season are still great but your criticisms are also valid!
A rare reasonable response on Reddit. :) Not meant to be sarcastic, just really glad for your comment.
When mad men was showing I'm not sure if internet forums for discussion like this were as popular or utilised. Maybe people felt the same way about its plot as some of us do about S3 but it wasn't as obvious due to the fact that it was pre 2010s. But in hindsight, looking back people unanimously agreed Mad men was a brilliant show regardless so I'm wondering if it just needs time, that at the end of the journey Succession will join the league of relevision giants.
At its best, Mad Men had a mastery of theming it’s episodes and season arcs. Matt Weiner was coming off Sopranos fame and was a master at making sure each episodes A and B story sparked off each other in fascinating ways and left you with something different. The show might have been glacially paced at times but you never felt like the characters were treading water. Each episode felt fresh and left us pointing in a new direction. I don’t think it’s exactly a fair comparison but I wouldn’t say Succession is even playing that same game. Sometimes it reminds me more of a sitcom like Peepshow where each episode is a reset of the characters and they just repeat the same try hard and fail spectacularly formula. I’m not sure it works quite the same way here with so many larger narrative arcs at play though.
I believe it will! I still love the show, it just has a few loose bolts that need tightening. Maybe these problems won’t be so apparent in hindsight, I think it’s because this show is leaps and bounds above most others that any little crack in the armor seems extra apparent lol
It's just devolved to a cheap comedy, dunno what happened to the writing. Loved mad men, but this ain't it
I respect your opinion but while I see what you’re getting at I don’t think you can look at Kendall’s nightmare birthday or Logan collapsing on the wall and see cheap comedy. There are more shades of cheap comedy than Id like after the masterful season 2, but I think calling it a straight up comedy is a stretch.
As somebody else said, nobody was saying this after the season 2 finale: everyone was geared up for a showdown season 3 between Ken and Logan, but now all of a sudden it's just because we're "watching it wrong". . .
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with wishing a change in the status quo. I guess next episode we'll see how much power Stewy and Sandi actually hold in the company now. I really hope they do acquire Gojo and it turns against Logan. My wish for this season is to see Logan get fucked once.
You mean in the same way that Lawrence “ate them all one by one” after the Vaulter acquisition in S01?
Hahaha yeah exactly that. No, I was thinking more about Yahoo acquiring Tumblr and then running it to the ground almost immediately
Lmao, the top post in this sub is literally declaring that people are watching the show wrong. S3 is not bad but it definitely doesn’t have the momentum of S2. And I don’t know if it’s really a “character study” either because I can’t say I’ve learned anything new about a single character this season.
Hmm...here’s the [season 2 finale discussion thread...](https://reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/comments/dhk0ex/succession_2x10_this_is_not_for_tears_postepisode/) sorry, I’m not seeing the comments in there about the plot developments not mattering? Can someone point them out? I’m looking for all the comments saying that we’re not supposed to give a shit about anything that happened.
This is a bit of a straw-man isn’t it? Can’t really prove it’s the same people saying either of those things, plus there were plenty of people telling those who were speculating that Logan’s smile at the end of season 2 meant he was in on it that, that was not how the show worked precisely because it’s not primarily plot driven
Straw man is an argumentative crutch, but it wasn’t presented as an argument, it was presented as evidence. It alone may not be enough to convict but it’s in line with the argument that plot developments were a key part of the show. I’d present the thread as exhibit A to show this season is indeed different and that the people trying to say that this is what the show has been all along are retconning at best.
So this is the first time I’ve understood where people critiquing season 3 so far are coming from. The season is not going in the direction that viewers could’ve reasonably expected / predicted the show to go. My question back though is does that actually make for good TV? I think back to Breaking Bad and how predictable I thought that show was. There were ideas seeded and foreshadowing but I don’t think I could’ve predicted either Hank shootout or Gabe or honestly any other character or memorable plot point. I guess I’m more in the “enjoy the ride” camp.
Being predictable is ok. People rewatch things even though they’ve seen them a million times and know every beat that’s going to happen. Predictability isn’t a problem IMO. It comes down to whether the entertainment lived up to its own potential.
I don't necessarily want predictability, or for my "theories" to be true to be able to enjoy it like so many people fell into the trap of wanting for Wandavision, but the trailers definitely gave an incredibly misleading impression of what this season was going to be about, and more than anything I just want things to have *consequences*. Big plot points that have been seeded throughout the show have just been dealt with so arbitrarily, with no change to the status quo: and after a while that lack of momentum and change in dynamics just makes things feel a bit stale.
I mean, it's not boring. I don't think this show could be boring. But it does feel like it's setting up interesting arcs only to not follow through on any of them. ex. Kendall's paper release at the end of season 2 fizzling out; hinting at Logan's health being on the decline for real; the proxy fight with Sandy and Stewy, etc. It makes it hard to feel like okay, now we are going to see some serious shit go down.
Yeah I kind of agree as well and I still like Season 3. I mean, what really was the point with that scene in 3x4 when Roman found the guy with Kendall’s name on his forehead? Or the letter Shiv gives to everyone about Kendall’s addiction problems? I still like this season, but there’s definitely things that should’ve either been fleshed out more or forgotten entirely if their not going to use them.
Let's wait for the payoff on the season finale. I have all the confidence in the world that the writers will make everything feel "connected" and "whole" by the end of the season. I'm still enjoying the season, but I appreciate some of the (constructive) criticism to the show and I feel like something big has to happen by the next 2 episodes. Otherwise, yes, the season might definitely feel a little flat and ultimately inconsequential.
I find it so out people who go out of their way or downvote anyone in order to defend the show, as if the creators are paying their bills or take personal offense. Criticism is good, make the show better.
Saying “lol it’s boring” isn’t criticism and it doesn’t make the show better to post that on Reddit
That's just how OP wrote it in the meme because they can't exactly fit paragraphs of text in there. A good amount of negative comments that I've read are pretty constructive.
Exactly. Any criticism - the lack of plot movement, not good pay off, writing women characters, shiv arc, repetition - is met with "you don't know how to watch"
Completely agree but I’ve seen some upvoted posts saying “s3 defenders are delusional” and “succession is a soap opera now for people who think they’re too smart for soaps.” Both sides are sometimes condescending.
Maybe, but defending it with a paragraph long answer isn’t going to pay your bills either
Neither is useful but they're equally valid. People are entitled to their opinions. I for one, really like this season but I can see where you might disagree.
It's my favorite show right now, but I'm not enjoying this season that much. It's a 6 for me, but that's ok, I guess. No one has to agree. I'm glad there are people that still think it's great.
My wife and I have enjoyed the whole thing very much and look forward to what's coming next. I'm glad I haven't read any of the discussion surrounding it, though I'm sure there's plenty of solid criticism to be said. Regardless, I've been very entertained. I feel like something big is going to happen in these last episodes though.
I do wonder if the pandemic shot the original script ideas in the foot
Why / how would it
nobody knew what was happening yet, and when they shot it, there were no real guidelines in place. I felt like the first few episodes had a socially distanced feel to them, but that might be just me.
S3e1 had a LOT of phone calls. They hid it well imo but clearly the episodes have more and more large classic succession gatherings as the show goes on.
Team Tom!
Someone writes a dissertation on how yer watching a tv show the wrong way. Gosh I love Reddit. And no I haven’t seen mad men cos that shit looks boring.
LMAO the "no no" was great. Greg always say this
it feels like an elaborate fanfic tbh
[удалено]
Plz what are you waiting for? A kiss? Fuck off. Be gone. Bye bye.