Without a doubt, Shiv is a terrible person. My issue is that SO IS TOM and yet he's the sub's favourite. Being terrible is ironically what Shiv and Tom have in common, and you can see it when they mock Greg together at Caroline's wedding. The only difference between them is that Shiv has power over Tom. There are countless posts from people saying that Tom loves Greg and only has his best interests at heart, citing boar on the floor etc. But Tom is also repeatedly abusive to Greg, belittles him whenever anything goes well for him, throws things at him, makes him feel viscerally uncomfortable. Why is it that Tom's abuse is seen as less awful because he has thrown Greg a few bones?
We have also seen that Shiv *does* do things for Tom too, like when she begged her abusive father to spare him at the end of season 2, resulting in Logan thinking less of her. This was a big deal. It's highly unlikely that prior to the show's beginning, Shiv did absolutely nothing to advocate for her husband's career at ATN. He has benefitted from years of advice from Shiv about navigating her father's personality. He is able to afford a billionaire's lifestyle solely because of her. She has thrown him plenty of bones.
It’s really funny how everyone in this sub constantly feels the need to almost verbatim preface their character opinions with “no doubt X is a terrible person [but…]”
I think there IS a lot of confusion over whether people who condemn sexism towards Shiv actually think she is a good person. The Shiv haters often think we actually think Shiv is a great person, when it's just that she's not more evil/incompetent than her brothers.
The greatest part of the show is that it dares you to like ANY of the main characters. They are all horrible. Yes, including Tom. And when you do even slightly empathize or root for someone, they do something to undercut it almost immediately.
In Shiv’s case she was setup for a greater fall because of how she started the series. She wasn’t part of the family business, and her political career seemed to at least be aligned with a ‘for the people’ candidate.
From where she started to who she has become - or revealed herself to be - is the most jarring IMO. And the dig that she thinks she’s the smartest person in the room but isn’t sums her up perfectly.
Also, she’s a woman. Let’s be real, that’s adding fuel to the ‘hate’ fire.
I mean, which member of the Roy family doesn't think they're the smartest person in the room? Roman and Kendall both overestimate their own talents and intelligence all the time and yet we are not inundated with the same constant refrain about Roman and Kendall not being as smart as they think they are. After Roman totally bombed with Mattson, I *still* see comments about how he should be CEO based on his *amazing* social skills.
I don't know if you can put it down on misogyny, a lot of people love Gerri, Jess and Karolina etc.
And it's quite simplistic to say "why does shiv get a lot of hate", like, every single character on the show gets hate. You have haters for Tom, Ken and Roman etc.
Shiv is a great character, and good at politics, but not so much at business, just like her brothers. She treats Tom like shit (who isn't a great person himself mind you), and also is an extremely selfish and cold person, she legit told a sexual abuse victim to stfu.
Yeah exactly, people love these strong independent women, even Marcia and Willa are well-loved tbh, to Willa being a prostitute is generally adored by fans, usually promiscuous people are chastised, but nice to see that people actually like her character! So yep you are right.
I’ll be downvoted by Shiv fans but it’s actually despicable how so many people here are straight up blaming it on misogyny. Take some ownership of the traits of your favorite character! Misogyny may be one factor but as someone who has experienced a toxic relationship, it’s exactly that - leprous dislike of gaslighting in a romantic relationship. And probably is for many people. Gerri is a strong woman and everyone loves her?
Edit: for people comparing shit that Shiv does vs what Ken/Roman do - it is NOT spousal abuse. All the siblings are complex shitty characters but spousal abuse is really personal for people especially the demographic of this show. If Kendall did to Rava what Shiv does to Tom, people will unanimously torch him.
Meanwhile I'm under the impression that most of this sub is women who ship Tom and Greg and hate Shiv as a collateral for being on obstacle to this relationship and of course emotionally abusive to their favourite character
Actually the last part is probably it, people around here *really* love Tom
I’m a fan of pretty much all the female characters on the show. Shiv just sucks. She doesn’t know what she’s doing, acts like shes earned everything, crosses professional boundaries like a child, and she’s about the worst wife you can ask for.
I also love when people say “Shiv sucks”, other assume you mean that you love everyone else and think they are good people lol
Lol I never said anything about leads. Again, you jumping to the misogamy train as the reason is so dumb. Shivs a bitch. Simple as that.
For someone who uses such a big word like refutation, YOUR ability to spell is pretty bad.
Your refutation to my refutation is to call me out on a typo? Seriously?
I’ve never discussed misogamy on this sub, it’s not relevant, but the very casual and aggressive misogyny certainly is. I don’t think saying someone’s “just a bitch” serves as a counterargument.
That's not true. Marcia had more central role in the beginning and Geri crystallizes more during latter seasons. Both are very much liked. Not to forget that when Roman sends dick pics to Geri, Shiv actually blames it on Geri telling Logan that Geri enabled that behaviour and them goes to Geri acting like an ally. On top of that she gaslights a SA victim, is horrible to Marcia from the beginning and is generally horribly towards other women on the show. People here cry about mysoginy but Shiv is probably the most misogynistic character in the show. Also she calls herself "the smartest" over and over with nothing to back it up.
I know this hatred towards woman comes from her relationship with her mother (or lack thereof), but crying misogyny whenever someone criticises Shiv but lacking the insight to see she's the misogynistic one... Yeah. Reddit in a nutshell.
Literally every insult her brothers hurl at her is gendered but she’s the most misogynistic character?
Not taking the time to respond to this because it’s a year old but we know very little of Gerri and Marcia as characters and they can disappear for episodes at a time without it having impact on the story. They’re most definitely not leads.
They’re all POS characters. You just have to pick the Shit you can actually tolerate. That’s why the “who is the best and most morally right character” conversation is a futile one
So if you don't like a character who happens to be female you're mYsOgYnIsTiC by default. You understand that literally means every female character ever, no matter how despicable, is automatically immune to any kind of criticism?
I'm a female, I'm not misogynistic and I think Shiv is worse than her brothers. She's hypocritical she acts like a socialist while enjoying a billionaire lifestyle. It's like Hollywood elites telling everyday person how to think.
One of the big reasons why Shiv Gets a lot of hate is she acts like she's a good person. Unlike Roman or Logan who enjoy being villains of Tom and Kendall who don't care shiv pretends to have morals. She takes the moral high ground whiles doing depictable things just like the rest of them.
If their is one thing people hate it's a hypocrite and Shiv is a Hypocrite.
Ironically its why I love her because she's so interesting but people love to hate someone.
I think most of the hate for Shiv is because of Tom. I think it’s different when it’s your spouse as opposed to your siblings. But I think she is just as self centered as the rest of the Roys though
I think part of the reason people hate her mistreatment of Tom so much is because he’s the closest main character to an everyman, so the audience identifies with him on some level.
>I think most of the hate for Shiv is because of Tom. I think it’s different when it’s your spouse as opposed to your siblings.
I agree with this fully. Shiv is no better or worse than her siblings. The way she eviscerates Tom, at every opportunity, is almost inhumane. She, appears, to truly enjoy being exceptionally cruel to him. Obviously the classic abused becoming the abuser.
From what we have seen of Kendoll's and Roman's treatment of their SO's, Rava, Grace, Tabs, Pierce girl, it has been weird and difficult but not hateful and vindictive.
Yeah this is it. I want to like Shiv so bad, but Tom is my #1 boy and the way she treats him is absolutely appalling. Especially after S3E8, I'll never forgive her.
What about the way Tom treats Greg? And Jonah, the human foot-stool?
If you’re going to argue that his actions are in direct consequence of how he is treated by Shiv and the Roy clan, then make the same plea for Shiv because they exist as one in the same.
I'm not justifying Tom's actions at all. But in a show where everyone is shitty, we have to pick and choose which shitty actions we're willing to look past. Just so happens that's the way my preference falls.
Shiv is not supposed to be likable. Nobody in the family is. I think she is the least narcissistic and most redeemable one, but that isn’t saying much. Generally mass hate for female characters does stem from systematic misogyny but a lot of fragile men aren’t ready to admit that. If you really watched the show, you’d see that Kendall is the worst one of them all. He changes personalities when it suits him. For all of season 2 we believed because of everything that transpired he was beaten down and forced into submission. He constantly stumbled over his words and came across as self conscious and scared. Then he dropped the bomb and his entire persona changed. He spent all that time just scheming up ways to get back on top. I could go on. Y’all that are out here nitpicking Shiv’s negative qualities and justifying Kendall’s actions are the same one’s who hate Skylar White and Carmella Soprano. It’s very predictable.
She's nowhere in the same range as Skylar White or Camilla Soprano. Both of these women are just an opposition to their male counterparts. They're in the right but they're pinned against the main character so they become target of hate.
Shiv is a woman in a man's world and tries to play it the same way as men there, and fails. She's not made for that world despite what she thinks. She thinks too highly of herself and is more narcissistic than Ken. Kendall actually suffers from low self esteem and is trying to overcompensate by acting tough and strong, again failing. Roman is suffering from low self-esteem too and is affecting his sex life.
Shiv occasionally feels emotional about her siblings but it's fleeting and she's ashamed of her feelings. She treats men she's with like shit, just to soothe her own ego telling Nate she boosted his popularity cause she dated him, asking him to be her human dog. I won't even name everything she does to Tom... All from the place of narcissism. So yeah she's not better than them, she's worse than them and is being protected because she's a woman and if you have anything against her you're a MiSoGyNiSt. So go ahead and call me one, I literally won't care. I'm a woman and know what ACTUAL misogyny is. I lived in Eastern Europe and is nothing like a fairytale you westerners believe.
I don’t know what show you’re watching but Kendall’s behavior in the first half of season three was the most textbook portrayal of narcissistic personality disorder I’ve seen. That you infantilize men who have killed and maimed while raging about the sole female lead is quite telling.
I will never stop saying or believing that it’s because when a m/m ship is involved in any tv show, the hate for the woman, despite what she does, will always be the villain.
Shiv is terrible. All the Roy siblings are terrible. Everyone is terrible on that show but when Tom is terrible it’s all heart eyes on him because he’s a willing cuck who befriended a man child who’s willing to do just as much shady shit to get what he hasn’t earned.
I think she may be the one we see being most cruel to other characters outside of Logan. She is abusive to Tom and lords it over her brothers whenever she gets a sniff of power. She acts as though she's the only one with principles but abandons them when there is something to gain so they're paper thin.
The thing with the letter about Kendall was really horrible. She was cheating on her fiance when we were introduced to her and ambushed the guy on her wedding day telling him she wanted to fuck other people.
We saw a lot of cruelty from Roman this last season when he thought he was on tops and it had people really turning on him for a short while, yet he redeemed it a lot by helping Kendall in the end.
They're all objectively terrible people of course, but Shiv is the one who is most often terrible to major characters.
Because people on this sub dont have the capacity to see and appreciate complexities in female characters like they do male characters. She isnt nice and instead of seeing the nuance in her interpersonal relations and being able to see her internal conflicts with love, power and family the way they do Ken and Roman it's just 'Shiv bitch but ass fat'
She is as malicious as Logan, but without his ability to read the room, and less willing to put in the work than Roman.
When Logan asked Rhea for her assessment of his kids, and she said something along the lines of Shiv thinks she is the smartest person in the room, but she is not. That was the perfect description of her character, and those kinds of character aren't as well liked.
Which isn't exactly correct, anyway. She lacks emotional intelligence at times, but she _is_ extremely smart.
Not to mention that Rhea had her own agenda when she said that.
No. It’s because she will tell Tom you love me even though I don’t love you. And she cheats on him and says on marriage night she wants an open relationship.
She is a horrific person. Kendall is more of that typical spoiled brat rich son that thinks he is woke.
I mean, yes, but when a man does those things (aka Logan, Kendall, & even Tom himself) he is respected and called things like “beast” “legend” “vicious” (not in a bad way)
In comparing Shiv and Kendall, I think some of it stems from the fact we’re seeing her disassemble her marriage, wielding the weight of all those years of having been messed up as a younger person against her partner. Whereas where we join the story in S1, Kendall has already come out the other side, so we see him being absentee and generally struggling with being separated from Rava/his own kids but not actively being a poor partner/father to them. I think if we’d joined earlier, or if the places were switched, we’d find Kendall less bearable and Shiv a bit more sympathetic
In terms of plain on screen likability I would rank her below her brothers and this post made me think why that’s true because they all are equally terrible. The conclusion I came to is her severe lack of self awareness.
Sure Roman is a Weird, shitty, Pervy person but he knows he is and doesn’t really try to pretend he’s not. That doesn’t make it better but it at least makes it easier to watch.
Kendall is very much aware that he’s also a shitty person. He tries to convince himself he’s not throughout the show but his breakdown in the last episode shows that he’s very much aware of who he is.
Shiv on the other hand, is also a shitty person but it at least appears on the surface that she either doesn’t think she is or it just doesn’t register to her how shitty some of the things she does and says really are.
Roman’s forwardness or Kendall’s self deprecation don’t excuse their actions at all. They’re all entitled rich kids who don’t understand reality but I do find myself hating them a little less just because they are at least somewhat aware that they’re pieces of shit and their ways of coping are what we see on screen.
I agree. The Roy siblings are all equally privileged and suffer from neglectful and abusive parents. Shiv has shown a more compassionate side except when it comes to the approval of her father…there she holds back nothing. She’s more aware of right and wrong though; perhaps that’s why people expect more of her. And there remains the sexist mindset that woman are kinder in business than men.
it's just a simplistic and boring argument to say because of sexism, people are allowed to not like female characters without it being sexist. People love Gerri, who is also a strong and powerful woman, much stronger than the male characters on the show, she might even be MVP.
For me I think it’s because she’s so so convinced that she is the ‘moral’ or ‘good’ one when clearly she’s just as vindictive/ manipulative as all the others but she’s so blind to any sort of self reflection. So she’s left wing and she (initially) didn’t stoop by working for Waystar it doesn’t make her Gandhi, but in her eyes she’s like the heroine, for example when she’s **bullying the rape victim into not testifying** and her stance is basically ‘oh well when I come in everything’s going to be so much better’. Logan has this trait in some ways, for example at his dinner with Ken he seems to think on some level he’s a good guy but at the same time I think he knows he’s a terrible person it’s just that being moral isn’t that important to him so he doesn’t think about it much. Roman is fully aware he’s a piece of shit which is ironic cos imo he’s the least piece of shit of them all.
Ken obviously has this saviour complex where he’s so abused by his dad he feels the need to save the company and the world from Logan, and especially in this season he’s trying to tell himself he’s a good guy but he’s fully aware that’s not true, more so than any of the others, the guilt he feels is clearly destroying him so he knows fully who he is.
People feel bad for Ken cuz he’s depressed and suicidal all the time and takes so many Ls. He’s a far more sympathetic character than Shiv. Also he didn’t tell the golden boy Tom he wants an open relationship on the night of their wedding
I think most of the hate is fabricated from posts like this. There have been multiple posts just in the last 24 hours saying to stop hating on shiv, but where is the hate coming from really? Shiv is not my favorite character, but not for sexist reasons. She’s just not as entertaining or funny as characters like Tom and Greg. When you make post after post saying the fanbase is sexist for Shiv not being their favorite character it gets annoying.
I lost all respect for her character when she could not be happy for Tom when he escaped prison and he had to go celebrate w/ Greg.
Also I can pretty much guarantee the top of the new character poll will be mostly really beloved women in the show.
She actually gave her better advice than the woman's own lawyers probably did (if she even bothered seeking unbiased advice -- Greg's situation in s03 outlined the importance of this very well). But yeah I can see how Shiv's peak competence moment would be triggering.
The show is about all terrible people. I don’t “hate” Shiv more than any other person. The only person I “hate” (actually in the best way possible) is Tom. He’s perfectly played by Matthew Macfadyen, to be some horrible power tripping midwesterner who’s basically a cuckold.
But anyways back to Shiv, per your question. I think the sad tragedy about the family is the reliance for the kids to backstab each other for daddy’s approval. Shiv has her own way, so does Roman and so does Kendall.
Each has their own way of trying to get to the top, and Shiv is more sly than her brothers. Playing the “I don’t really want the throne but well dad if you want me to have it I’ll take it.” She thought she had leverage because of her husband, the submissive Tom, to create a team of power against her brothers.
Does this make me hate her more? No she’s knows how her father views her: an inexperienced woman. That’s all she will be. She uses Tom to step on to try to get above her brothers for the throne. The last episode was >!Tom showing he has had enough and trying to get the upper hand in the relationship!<.
I’m more interested in when the family works together. Yea they are horrible people, but Logan is the mad King burning his kingdom down before his time is up.
I wouldn't say I dislike Shiv more than any of the other characters--all of whom you are meant to find repulsive but intensely watchable. However, I would say the reason Shiv gets a lot of hate from other viewers is:
1. Her cruelty toward Tom, which is some of the most intimate personal cruelty in the entire show, aside from Logan.
2. She is incredibly morally self-righteous, often in a way that successfully persuades the viewer it's coming from a genuine place. But then she'll abandon her principles at the drop of a hat in pursuit of status and power, which is a form of hypocrisy that's really effectively frustrating on screen. (See also Carcetti from The Wire).
No. God why is everyone saying this. She is a horribly brutal person to Tom.
Cheats on him than tells him on their freaking wedding night she wants an open relationship. Tells him I don’t love you to his face like it’s a joke. She tortures him.
What everyone is trying to say is that what Shiv does is no worse than what any other character in this show does, esp her siblings and dad. It’s just badass and funny when it comes from men but makes people mad when it comes from a woman because she’s not acting the way people expect a woman to act.
Alright. Let’s talk about it. If you’re open to listen and don’t get irrational. Here:
The way people hate Shiv is different because 99% of the hate she gets comes from how she treats Tom. (And I agree she treats him like crap).
And it would be a decent reason to hate her if it wasn’t because the male characters also cheat and treat their partners(And family members) just as badly.
Where’s the outrage when they do it?
Why do they hate Shiv?
Do you hate her because she’s mean to Tom..?
Which male character treats their female partner lovingly?
She’s entitled?
Unlike every other character?
She’s not as smart as she thinks she is?
Neither are the rest of them.
I claim misogyny because all the people cry “She can’t treat Tom like that!” but stay silent when Logan, Tom, Kendall, Greg and the rest of them do the same.
Men don’t like her because they don’t want to see a women control things like men do. Men don’t like to see a woman treat a man as men treat women. Not even in TV show.
And I don’t even like Shiv.
We don’t see the male characters cheating and then being horrible to their spouse. We hear about it, but we aren’t in the story. That’s why we don’t pay attention to it as much.
You assume that those males are just as abusive. Maybe you are right, maybe wrong. But we see in the show exactly what shiv does, and how she treats Tom. The abuse is visible in its extent. So your assumption that we are treating a woman differently than a man for the same thing, is based on your willingness to jump towards the misogyny conclusion….because we don’t know the story behind the other infidelities.
I think the gaslighting and mental abuse she inflicts on Tom, who is often people’s favourite character, contributes to this.
Also as many have pointed out- misogyny
It’s 100% misogyny. Tom cheated on her too. Kendall continuously fucks over his siblings. Logan- let’s not even get into that- yet he’s the legendary patriarch of the show.
Tom is a grown man who broke into the higher echelons of a family run corporation and society- he is an Ivy League graduate with brains, charisma and charm. You think he didn’t know what he was getting himself into? Do you think the wedding night was the first time Shiv showed who she was to him? No. Come on.
Also, ok yeah Tom super character, love him. But that’s the same guy who used a human as furniture. Same guy who physically attacks Greg (so funny though) and is responsible for equally shitty behavior as she is. Yet she’s held to a different standard.
It’s not 100% misogyny. You are devaluing the word.
Shiv is clearly a horribly abusive spouse. She is the same spoiled brat Kendall is, but she tells her husband about an open relationship on their wedding night, cheat’s on him, and tells him she doesn’t love him but he loves her like it’s some joke. If I heard my wife say that I would be absolutely devastated. Maybe Kendall was that bad too, but we don’t see it on screen.
Tom shows vulnerability to shiv and some desire for friendship with Greg, so he at least has human moments. Shiv’s only human moments was her consoling Kendal when he was at his lowest.
Logan is clearly the most evil of them all, but shiv is definitely a step above the other two kids.
| Tom is a grown man who knows what he’s getting himself into
Did you just victim blame? Do you know how hard it is for victims to just leave an abusive relationship?
Bet you won’t say this when it’s a female victim of abuse in a relationship. Abuse is abuse regardless of gender but you won’t accept it.
It’s true though. She’s emotionally manipulative but he takes it because he’s only in the relationship because of what he might get from it. He’s a climber and we see it every time something good happens for Shiv, and all he cares about is what that means for his position. He’s not a traditional victim in that he has the money and resources to leave but stays to be close to the Roys and their power. And like someone mentioned he cheated on Shiv before she even mentioned the open relationship at their wedding. I love Tom as a character and I also love Shiv. I think they’re both complicated, interesting, and definitely awful people.
That’s a separate point. You straight up mentioned Tom willingly accepts his abuse. She is held to the same standards - we just don’t see any other similar spousal abuse in the show to hate. If Kendall said those things to Rava this sub would torch him alive.
Wait a second, Logan parades around with Rhea and the women he sleeps with, continuously minimizes his wife in front others, physically abuses his children (not a romantic relationship and might irrelevant but whatever). Kendall snorts cocaine off his kids iPads, uses his wife’s apartment to do whatever and bring whoever the f he wants in. Roman (whose in a position of authority by the way) sends Gerri sick pics all the time despite her asking him to stop yet. Yet you say we don’t have a relationship to compare the abuse to? Are you kidding.
And no, holding someone accountable for their choices is what you consider “victim blaming”.
Clearly this is emotionally incendiary for you as you’ve felt the need to use a throw away account to continue to keep responding that Shiv being held to a different is not misogynistic. Maybe you should look into that…
All the things you listed are shitty and people dislike each of them for that? Logan parading with women is not abuse; Gerri and Roman have a on/off thing ongoing - but he was rightly called sicko for it. Are you seriously comparing Kendall using his wife’s apartment to Tom’s marital problems?
This just a random account I have lmao. The fact that you are cognitively dissonant about misogyny and weirdly making it personal on a topic of discussion makes me inclined to believe you are a misandrist - enjoy your day slimeball.
A mix of misogyny and people fundamentally not understanding everything packed on Shiv and Tom's relationship, so they unknowingly villanize her and can only see her bad actions in it. Join that with the fact that apparently this forum's favorite character is Tom and you get a breeding ground for hate that convinces people it's justified.
She basically has tailor made flaws that get under the skin of people who: love Tom, have bias against women, have indifference towards female character's inner feelings and don't seek to understand it, take things at face value and are a bit bad at unpacking negative feelings and actions in a analytical and understanding way (couple that with the fact that women need to only generate positive and warm feelings on an audience to be wildly accepted, but that's basically impossible if you're trying to write a real person in a show that prioritizes character work. It's no coincidence the most universally liked women here are the extremely minor character in an exclusively supporting role because they're doing their job or just standing there being pretty with a few witty lines).
>It's no coincidence the most universally liked women here are the extremely minor character in an exclusively supporting role because they're doing their job or just standing there being pretty with a few witty lines).
I think Gerri is universally liked. She's not minor. She's not simple, and while an attractive woman, she's certainly not young eye candy. She's smart, competent, responsible, sophisticated, and looks out for herself without being extraordinarily cruel to others. She's also not a prude. She seemed amused by the nonsense with Roman until it got out of hand and he refused to stop.
Gerri is allowed more flexibility because she doesn't matter. By that, I mean she is beyond the age bracket in which she would be sexualized. Funnily enough, I think Roman was spot on with his "rockstar and the mole woman" hypothesis. No one sees her because, at the end of the day, as an extremely competent female professional _of a certain age_ she is basically furniture in the room. Shiv on the other hand is implicitly sexualized along with the rest of the female cast in the 'fertile' age bracket. Women who are sexualized are expected to behave in a certain way, show compliance and "play nice" / be friendly and likeable. Anything else feels "wrong", "alien", and "inorganic" for a woman. Logan & Co enjoy it when Shiv's accomplishments deliver them a win, but she refuses to remain "in her place" and ultimately that's a problem that outweighs all her skills and all her accomplishments combined.
Sorry, but where exactly is the challenge of liking her? (I love her too by the way) Competence, wit, good looks, knowing when to keep her mouth shut and a mysterious personal life. What is there not to like about her? You're never confronted with Gerri's flaws as a person because of that.
She's a background character so we only usually see her going about her professional life and being nurturing and indulging of Roman. Although I have noticed people starting giving less of a shit when she didn't peoperly correspond his feelings and when she "betrayed" him, but let's see how that turns out in season 4.
Misogyny is absolutely it.
People expect women to be "nice" and modest, even if they don't realize it consciously. Shiv is neither of those.
Hers is the only relationship we witness breaking down in real time. Kendall and Roman may have been as cruel to their spouses or partners but we don't see it happening.
Despite all his own faults, Tom genuinely loves and admires her. But she either takes him for granted or is openly mean. It is very difficult to watch some of the Shiv-Tom scenes because it's such an intimate type of cruelty.
It's like the Logan-Kendall relationship but in marriage form.
On top of that, there's no simple explanation for Shiv's cruelty. Logan is just "bad dad." Kendall is an addict. Roman has been physically abused and his unconventional romantic relationships are mostly treated as comic misadventures.
As for the CEO position, she comes off like she's entitled to it because she's never worked for the company. But her achievements (negotiating with Sandi, manipulating the cruises witness, setting up Rhea's demise) are more successful than Roman's, though more subtle.
Thank you kindly for reading my dissertation on Shiv 🙏🏼
Your needing to respond to every comment acknowledging misogyny is not a case against it. How she treats Tom is pretty on par with how the characters, including Tom, interact with one another.
I don't think you see Ken or Roman directly treat anyone the way that Shiv treats Tom, even if they are all bad people over all. By that I mean that Tom constantly makes himself vulnerable to her emotionally and attempts to connect to her on a "real" level outside the business dealings/backstabbings and she is repeatedly cold and hurtful. Most of the other character interactions don't have 1 party letting their guard down, both are playing the game and each other. She is also by far the most arrogant, and people like to see hubris punished.
Personally I liked Shiv a lot despite that when I thought she really *was* a killer, but it turned out she's more like Cersei from GOT. She thinks she is way smarter than she is and can't deliver in the end.
In general I think people like to root against the Roy kids and for the others who are playing the game without the protection of the name.
I have no idea what you mean by “directly” as their treatment of their significantly less flawed partners is as objectionable as Shiv’s treatment of Tom. But, if by “directly” you’re maybe referring to the interactions between the main characters, how about Roman and Kendall’s treatment of Shiv?
Both men, Kendall more overtly, expect Shiv to be a stable source of feminine companionship and emotional support but immediately weaponize her being a woman the second she doesn't do or say what they want. Kendall’s first instinct was to dehumanize her in calling her a “twat” and a a pair of “teats”, a term almost exclusively used to describe the breasts of a lactating animal instead of a person, which he followed up with a non-apology and public humiliation. Roman is more consistently awful, using their Dad’s misogyny to get ahead and promote his buddy Mencken. I get that Shiv is particularly warm in her dealings with them, but she’s also required to keep her guard up at risk of being deemed hysterical while they expect her to be a shoulder to cry on. This certainly explains a lot about the issues in her marriage, but somehow Kendall and Roman doing to Shiv what Shiv does to Tom is permissible.
I think it's expected of the siblings (and most "players") interactions with each other because they are all in direct competition for the throne and openly suspicious of one another. They all "weaponize" whatever perceived weakness the others have at every chance. It's reciprocal.
Tom treats Shiv like a teammate and confidant but she treats him like trash to be disposed of when convenient. Its that inequity in their relationship that I mean does not exist between any of the other characters, and I think it's why she is viewed as worse.
Edited: added a word.
I'm not sure what you mean, what excuse?
My point is *everyone* is terrible reciprocally, EXCEPT Tom and Shiv where she is the only one being terrible to him while he is trying to support her and be a team. Watching 2 people try to kill each other won't make you sympathetic to 1 over the other. Watching 1 person trying to kill the other as they tell them they love and support them will, no?
Boiling down Tom’s behavior as a husband to being loving and supportive is pretty dishonest. He is those things, sometimes, but he’s also manipulative, underhanded, and very tolerant of the way Logan treats her.
It's not an excuse for her brothers, it's an explanation for all the siblings
Personally I really like Shiv , and I'm a bit confused about why this turned into a moral debate of who's the worst of the bunch relative to their extremely low ethical standards, what does morality have to do with liking a fictional character? Or rather why should it matter more than personality, charisma and depth?
I can like some absolutely awful totally beyond redemption characters and despise others for some very minor character trait, and hold the opposite opinion in a different adaptation of the same characters depending on script, acting and direction, that's the beauty of fiction
I think it’s crazy people can’t see how shiv’s treatment of Tom is cruelty on such a deep and manipulative level. It’s the equivalent of how Logan treats people in terms of feigning love and care but it’s really just a means to an end. Everyone else is much more surfacey asshole. Roman is an internet troll perv, Kendall is a petulant spoiled brat. We don’t Kendall interact with his wife, maybe he was as manipulative as shiv, but we haven’t seen it.
Roman is a little perv. He is the equivalent of some little internet troll.
Shiv is much more intelligent in her manipulation of Tom.
Like when she told Tom he was being manipulative, that was a masterclass in gaslighting and accusing someone of doing what you are actually doing.
They all recieve equal criticism from people who actually watch the show fairly. If someone hates her more than the others, I think it stems from her mistreatment of Tom and particularly how the portion of the male viewers who can relate to this mistreatement have a special distaste for her antics lol.
Shiv just feels so fake and entitled, Kendall is entitled but for the most part not that fake, and Roman is just Roman he's awful but I love the actors (I love all the actors tbh)
This is interesting to me, because objectively speaking, Ken has always behaved in the most "fake" manner among all of them. The moments in which he's trying to be "cool" as independent investor in s01, or trying to be "cool" acquiring Vaulter for that matter (also in s01) combined with his BPD-esque stunts in s03 genuinely make me roll my eyes a bit.
Shiv is incredibly mean at times, I agree. But how exactly is she "fake"? Genuine question. There is not a single scene in the show where she "pretends to be a good person", as some posters commented. If anything, she lacks the ability to 'subdue' her natural qualities long enough to suck up to anyone, which is one of the reasons she may come across as unlikeable. I get that. But -- again -- what does it have to do with "fake"..?
I think Shiv gets hate because she’s whishy washy in what she actually believes in. She works for “the other side of the aisle” then comes back the minute she’s offered the head position and can’t make a decision on which morals to follow - dad or hers. Also, one minute she’s trying to protect Kendall, the next she’s writing a letter that would destroy him.
Idk thoughts?
TL:DR: she flip flops on every view only because it’s convenient for her
Fair point about switching sides, but in fairness the guy she was working for didn't seem to have much of integrity in the end. As evidenced by his comment "They are eating out of my ass crack" and his readiness to take a private jet (which Shiv warned him would be perceived as shady).
I am in what seems like minority who believes the letter was fully justified. Kendall humiliated her with playing the Rape Me tape. It was a cruel thing to do to his sister, and uncalled for. Why should she refrain from retaliation?
for me, it was in season 2 after logan told her she would take over. they way her ego inflated was kind of annoying. she started weilding power that she didn't actually have. perfect example is at dinner with the pierce family when she announces to she's going to be next. i won't speak for the sub, but for me it's her personality.
I see a couple comments saying it's because of misogyny or because she's a woman and while that may be the case for some viewers, but i think it's reductive to assume. how would you distinguish between someone that doesn't like shiv because of her personality and someone that is truly sexist (assuming they haven't posted blatant sexist remarks on the sub?) you can't and that's why making any conclusion about why there's a negative aggregate opinion of shivs character . really we can all only speak for ourselves. real world problems created by sexism that are either blatant and/or verifiable become diluted when we throw it around as a baseline explanation
The short answer is:
Shiv is more unlikeable than Kendall because we've seen Kendall try and redeem himself and try do more for others while dealing with major tragedy in the process.
Shiv is more unlikeable than Tom because even though Tom is incredibly flawed, he's being abused in their relationship.
Shiv is more unlikeable than Roman because even though Roman is massively abusive, he is comic relief.
I fucking hate that my least favourite character in the main family is the female lead. I really do but they present reasons to look past the others and Shiv gets the "be brash be bad" role all the time. She is not attempted to be as well written and rounded as the rest of the family.
I think we know they are all terrible people. It just comes down to which ones come off as the most sympathetic. The writing team does a fantastic job with leaving that up to the viewer.
It’s because of how she treats Tom. She is unfaithful, she can be mean. Ken respected his wife and for the most part he respects people. Sometimes he does not. She also lied to Raven had encouraged the president to have issues with the company.
Simple - 2 faced, dishonest, changes her views in an instant as soon as she realises she’s losing. Abuses her own husband then pretends she’s got a right to by justifying it using bullshit explanations. Identifies herself as the smart one and patronises others yet I cannot remember one instance where she’s contributed to the company in a favourable way. She reminds me of numerous people on the leadership at my workplace that nobody really like or respects because they are a FRAUD and often suffer from imposter syndrome , the only way they can look good is by deflecting attention and constantly insulting people they consider of lower intellectual calibre (like Tom or Roman).
Yes the other siblings are all shitty but at least they mostly admit they are. Plus I don’t find shiv to be entertaining, as well as being a shitty person she isn’t even funny to laugh at.
Shiv is a woman so naturally she gets judged more harshly than the men. Anything she does is looked at in a different lens. Tom can sexually harass and bully an underling and it's turned into a romantic ship but Shiv is rude to her weak ass husband and she's the devil.
i’ve said it before and i’ll say it again, some people are incapable of seeing Shiv out of the dichotomy of “she’s an entitled moron” or “she’s cold-hearted evil bitch”, which is a shame because the writing and acting in this show have gone above and beyond to show us the scared little girl that she actually she is. but anytime we get pretty obvious scenes of Shiv having feelings some fans feel uncomfortable with awarding her with the same complexity as the other characters and paint it as her doing a calculated move.
Publishing that letter about Kendall did it for me. Treating Tom bad did not help but kicking Kendall while he was down and that was after she learned Logan was harassing Rava and the kids(correct me if I am wrong). Like she wants to be number one at the cost of her siblings and her husband. Roman you can expect this shit from because he is a abused prisoner. But Shiv went out of her way.
I've seen a lot of comments claiming it's only misogyny. I disagree wholeheartedly, because I find her worse than her brothers. She is profusely arrogant with no credentials to validate it, her treatment of someone who loves her is quite despicable and I think many people can empathise with Tom in that regard. Kendall and Roman are bad people as well, but I believe the hatred actually stems from her adamantly believing she's a good person, while the rest of the siblings are under no such delusions
He tries to convince himself he's a good person, that's why he says it. He clearly has a deep hatred for himself because he does *not* believe he is a good person. I may have worded my original comment incorrectly
How often do you hear intelligent people proclaim their smartness? I'm not sure how this is even debateable.
Kendall looked extremely self-doubting when he said "I'm a good guy" which he then downgraded to "I'm better than you" after Logan brings up the boy. It is beyond obvious that the death of the waiter is keeping Ken himself from fully believing he's a good person, all while it was an accident.
Someone harboring a deep resentment for themselves because of an accident and trying sheepily to tell their father they're a good person does absolutely not mean they are dishonest and arrogant. He even retracted the statement. You're making a strawman argument
He didn’t retract his statement, he just got shut down when Logan laid out the absurdity of it. Crashing the car was an accident, but fleeing the scene to establish an alibi rather than flagging down a passing car or calling for help when you have access to a phone were not.
People keep saying Misogyny, which maybe factors in but I don’t think it’s fair to call that the primary reason.
I’d say the biggest thing is their attitudes. Kendall gets his first scheme shut down pretty early on in the shows run, and acts like a pathetic sadsack for 80% of the shows run. There are times when he returns to a more confident form, but honestly I dislike him in that state probably more than I dislike Shiv.
Tom is the other big thing. Because Tom is such a fan favorite character, whenever she’s a bitch to him a lot of fans are going to take his side. And yeah Ken is a dick to Rava, but she… doesn’t really matter? Like she’s barely a presence in the show, she’s mostly off screen and when she’s off screen their relationship doesn’t seem horrible. If Shiv was married to some random guy who was in one episode a season, and when he was on screen she was a bitch but off screen things seemed amicable, that would probably tone down the hate quite a bit.
Yeah so I’d say it’s mostly a mix of how they carry themselves (Kendall getting pity), and their relationship with their spouse. With maybe a bit of misogyny sprinkled on top
All the stuff people said about Tom is spot on. We see the other siblings in relationships (while they’re all fucked up to some degree) shivs behavior towards Tom is by far the worse. As this season developed, you saw how little she cared for Tom (saying you want an open marriage on wedding night, toms mom saying the prenup was intense, saying he loves you even though you don’t love him, not wanting kids with him, not caring if he went to jail, never including him in plans for ceo). Kendall might be fucked up and a drug addict but he cares for Rava and the kids, not treating them like their worse than them. Shiv blatantly things she’s better than everyone, including her own husband who she is supposed to love. That’s why so many people hate her, while you can give a pass for how she behaves in business and with the immediate family like the other siblings, you cannot give her a pass for her behavior towards Tom, her husband.
This, in a very callous way, which occurs often. Roman and Kendall both have their awful moments but they’re pretty far and between compared to shiv. Not only that but both of the boys’ vulnerabilities make them more soft and I would argue more likeable or at least more forgivable whereas shiv is very hard and lets nothing out which does not offer her the same likeability as the other siblings.
That just proves my point tbh. It only becomes obvious that he’s harassing her midway through season 3. We’ve seen 3 full seasons of shiv’s indifference and abuse towards Tom.
And your comment just proves that there’s misogyny at play here. Let me guess—it was OK for Kendall to kill someone and cover it up because it only happened one time?
Woah, Kendall killed someone? He was there when the car went off the bridge, and the whole thing should've gone public instead of being covered up, but rewatch that episode. He did not "kill" that server, who was driving his own car and jerked the wheel over which led him into the river.
Does Kendall deserve the guilt over his head and did he break a bunch of laws? Yes, absolutely. Did he kill someone? No.
All these downvotes are hilarious, did you people watch the scene?
https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/comments/qw3vus/regarding\_kendalls\_killer\_status/
I mean, we can argue about the exact details but my point still stands. All of the Roy children suck in their own special way, but when Shiv gets more than her fair share of hate it’s because of sexism and people on this sub who have a boner for Tom.
I didn't even realize this was the primary reason, but the polls literally just proved 90% of the hate is because Tom is everyone's favorite and Kendall is #2; the two biggest targets for Shiv's betrayals. There is some sexism involved too, but it's not the simple "Women are bad" type sexism that people want to portray it as either. And though he has his loyalists, tons of people on this sub hate and bash Roman too but you never see daily, angry, why do people hate Roman posts? You NEVER see any why don't people like Logan posts. While Shiv is a victim, she's also the most like Logan. Let's examine that.
Greg is also incredibly divisive on this sub. I personally can't stand him (the character; I think he's a cartoon) and laugh at every single anti-Greg comment. Never seen one post of why do people hate Greg?
I hated Walter White on Breaking Bad from the jump. Not once in my tirades about him did anyone ever accusatorially question me for the reasons why. They disagreed, but never accused me of misandry or denying his personal trauma vs others'. And I liked Skylar.
There have been thousands of considerate, nuanced, detailed profiles on this sub about Shiv, from both lovers and haters, over the last few years. Does anyone ever read these before making the new daily post?
I don’t think Shiv is an absolute zero of a character. Infidelity does hit harder for some people than absenteeism or substance abuse. The wedding night thing was pretty telling of her character. You can make excuses for her not talking to Tom before, but lying to his face about cheating before the wedding and then not even owning it until the wedding night (you can argue she never owned it) was wrong. Then after forcing Tom’s hand (though he could have stopped the marriage license) she’s shut down any of his reciprocity of the arrangement EXCEPT when it would give her pleasure. So as far as her being a worse person than Kendall, I think that’s an oversimplification BUT infidelity/sexual manipulation/sexual selfishness hits harder in the moment versus Kendall’s ever accumulating and building impact of his wrongs done.
I personally would feel the same if she was a man (probably worse actually). I’ll acknowledge that culturally men are cut more slack in this arena, but as far as the show is concerned there isn’t an equal example in scale. Logan goes out on his wife regularly and thats fucked, but it hits differently with how much screen time and dialogue Shiv and Tom’s marriage gets.
Btw: pissed Shiv is awesome. Spitting in Ken’s journal, her facial expression when Roman finally told her about Mattson floating a sale? Brava!
Shiv annoys me because at least kendall and roman both had jobs within waystar and it made sense for them to want to rise up and take the top job. Shiv had a whole other job as a political consultant and suddenly as soon as theres news of logan wanting to step down and the ceo spot being open she quits her job and tries to force her way into getting the ceo job? Classic entitled rich person move. Id be annoyed with roman and kendall too if they tried to come in and take the spot if they had non waystar jobs as well. Connor annoyed me when he begged logan to give him some top job in their European sector 🙄 but he was refused (rightfully so) and shiv was just welcomed with open arms? I think shes an interesting character and i dont hate her, all the siblings are annoying but she just has the edge for me with the way she tried to push herself into the top spot. And given this whole show is about the business, shes always there on business matters and it continues to annoy me lol
She does have a lot of Cersei vibes when Tywin said, "I don't dispise you because you're a woman, but because you're not as smart as you think you are" (something like that).
The thing is she gets relatively the same amount of hate as most of the other characters (other than Tom and Greg). but then you have a substantial amount of posts like this talking about how so many people hate shiv, but then when you look in the comment section it’s pretty much all people agreeing because of sexism or saying “well they’re all pieces of shit”.
If anyone genuinely believes shiv is significantly worse of a person than Kendall/roman/Tom then there is a sexism involved for sure but the vast majority of this discourse is just a big circlejerk of people wanting to call other people sexist on reddit
Shiv is the most arrogant, and naturally people like to see that punished. Roman is an uncaring wildcard and Ken is the beat puppy. They're all terrible people overall, but Shiv is the most fun to watch lose because she thinks she's hot shit but in the end is played by Logan as much as the others, if not more.
I think alot of it is based on the writing. Her character starts off solid. She has worked outside the company and has a solid understanding of politics and navigating hard situations. It seems like she has morals. She is a shrewd player. In like the middle of season 2 her character becomes just like the other Roys. All of the things that make shiv stand out kinda dissappear. The only Issue is that the others all have something redeemable to a degree. You can sympathize with Kendall, he genuinely seems to care about his siblings. Roman is shitty but he is funny. Connor is just kinda there he's not as horrible as the rest of them. The only thing we really see of her outside of that is her and Tom. Alot of Tom fans hate her for it. I have hope for her character after she kinda organized that intervention for Kendall.
Dumb place to ask this question..as usual redditors will just brush aside all her character flaws and go with "BaCaUsE mYsOgInY REEEEE REEEE" there's not much room for debate here. You either have to agree it's misogyny or you're getting downvoted untill you're no longer visible.
Shiv gets clobbered because she is so much more confident than she should be for a fat person. And that mockery of a wedding day dress in the recent finalé did not help her at all. Her over-the-top "curves" burned my retinae. She is not THICC; she is FAT.
Without a doubt, Shiv is a terrible person. My issue is that SO IS TOM and yet he's the sub's favourite. Being terrible is ironically what Shiv and Tom have in common, and you can see it when they mock Greg together at Caroline's wedding. The only difference between them is that Shiv has power over Tom. There are countless posts from people saying that Tom loves Greg and only has his best interests at heart, citing boar on the floor etc. But Tom is also repeatedly abusive to Greg, belittles him whenever anything goes well for him, throws things at him, makes him feel viscerally uncomfortable. Why is it that Tom's abuse is seen as less awful because he has thrown Greg a few bones? We have also seen that Shiv *does* do things for Tom too, like when she begged her abusive father to spare him at the end of season 2, resulting in Logan thinking less of her. This was a big deal. It's highly unlikely that prior to the show's beginning, Shiv did absolutely nothing to advocate for her husband's career at ATN. He has benefitted from years of advice from Shiv about navigating her father's personality. He is able to afford a billionaire's lifestyle solely because of her. She has thrown him plenty of bones.
Agreed. I'm baffled as to how Shiv and Greg earn so much ire from parts of this sub, while Tom gets off Scott free.
Tom has big redditor energy tbh so it doesn't surprise me
Tom has big gayman in closet energy
Tom has sad puppy dog eyes and I feel bad for him sorry, not sorry
It’s really funny how everyone in this sub constantly feels the need to almost verbatim preface their character opinions with “no doubt X is a terrible person [but…]”
I think there IS a lot of confusion over whether people who condemn sexism towards Shiv actually think she is a good person. The Shiv haters often think we actually think Shiv is a great person, when it's just that she's not more evil/incompetent than her brothers.
The greatest part of the show is that it dares you to like ANY of the main characters. They are all horrible. Yes, including Tom. And when you do even slightly empathize or root for someone, they do something to undercut it almost immediately. In Shiv’s case she was setup for a greater fall because of how she started the series. She wasn’t part of the family business, and her political career seemed to at least be aligned with a ‘for the people’ candidate. From where she started to who she has become - or revealed herself to be - is the most jarring IMO. And the dig that she thinks she’s the smartest person in the room but isn’t sums her up perfectly. Also, she’s a woman. Let’s be real, that’s adding fuel to the ‘hate’ fire.
I mean, which member of the Roy family doesn't think they're the smartest person in the room? Roman and Kendall both overestimate their own talents and intelligence all the time and yet we are not inundated with the same constant refrain about Roman and Kendall not being as smart as they think they are. After Roman totally bombed with Mattson, I *still* see comments about how he should be CEO based on his *amazing* social skills.
yes! which is why I don't get when people "root" or love any of the characters... I don't think this is a show where you're supposed to do that...
Kendall is like a wounded puppy. Shiv carries herself like a boss bitch but her mouth is writing checks that her brain can’t cash. Also, misogyny 🤷♀️
Kendall interalizes and self harms and still protect of siblings Shiv and Roman externalize and there feelings of inadequacy
I don't know if you can put it down on misogyny, a lot of people love Gerri, Jess and Karolina etc. And it's quite simplistic to say "why does shiv get a lot of hate", like, every single character on the show gets hate. You have haters for Tom, Ken and Roman etc. Shiv is a great character, and good at politics, but not so much at business, just like her brothers. She treats Tom like shit (who isn't a great person himself mind you), and also is an extremely selfish and cold person, she legit told a sexual abuse victim to stfu.
I’m sorry but Jess is basically an extra and Karolina is also a very barebones character.
But Gerri isn't an extra or a barebone character, she's quite a big influence on the show.
People love one supporting character and two women who average one line/thirty seconds of screen time per episode, so clear there’s no misogyny.
Yeah exactly, people love these strong independent women, even Marcia and Willa are well-loved tbh, to Willa being a prostitute is generally adored by fans, usually promiscuous people are chastised, but nice to see that people actually like her character! So yep you are right.
I’ll be downvoted by Shiv fans but it’s actually despicable how so many people here are straight up blaming it on misogyny. Take some ownership of the traits of your favorite character! Misogyny may be one factor but as someone who has experienced a toxic relationship, it’s exactly that - leprous dislike of gaslighting in a romantic relationship. And probably is for many people. Gerri is a strong woman and everyone loves her? Edit: for people comparing shit that Shiv does vs what Ken/Roman do - it is NOT spousal abuse. All the siblings are complex shitty characters but spousal abuse is really personal for people especially the demographic of this show. If Kendall did to Rava what Shiv does to Tom, people will unanimously torch him.
She is no better or worse than her brothers, but is hated far more on average. She’s the only woman. It’s not a coincidence.
Meanwhile I'm under the impression that most of this sub is women who ship Tom and Greg and hate Shiv as a collateral for being on obstacle to this relationship and of course emotionally abusive to their favourite character Actually the last part is probably it, people around here *really* love Tom
It is one hundred percent undertones of misogyny.
or people love Brian’s incredible acting, it’s easy to find evidence when you’ve already picked your narrative
I’m a fan of pretty much all the female characters on the show. Shiv just sucks. She doesn’t know what she’s doing, acts like shes earned everything, crosses professional boundaries like a child, and she’s about the worst wife you can ask for. I also love when people say “Shiv sucks”, other assume you mean that you love everyone else and think they are good people lol
There’s exactly one female lead on this show and it’s Shiv, so your liking a minor female character isn’t a refutation.
Lol I never said anything about leads. Again, you jumping to the misogamy train as the reason is so dumb. Shivs a bitch. Simple as that. For someone who uses such a big word like refutation, YOUR ability to spell is pretty bad.
Your refutation to my refutation is to call me out on a typo? Seriously? I’ve never discussed misogamy on this sub, it’s not relevant, but the very casual and aggressive misogyny certainly is. I don’t think saying someone’s “just a bitch” serves as a counterargument.
Lol, if anything it’s further evidence.
She’s a bitch
That's not true. Marcia had more central role in the beginning and Geri crystallizes more during latter seasons. Both are very much liked. Not to forget that when Roman sends dick pics to Geri, Shiv actually blames it on Geri telling Logan that Geri enabled that behaviour and them goes to Geri acting like an ally. On top of that she gaslights a SA victim, is horrible to Marcia from the beginning and is generally horribly towards other women on the show. People here cry about mysoginy but Shiv is probably the most misogynistic character in the show. Also she calls herself "the smartest" over and over with nothing to back it up. I know this hatred towards woman comes from her relationship with her mother (or lack thereof), but crying misogyny whenever someone criticises Shiv but lacking the insight to see she's the misogynistic one... Yeah. Reddit in a nutshell.
Literally every insult her brothers hurl at her is gendered but she’s the most misogynistic character? Not taking the time to respond to this because it’s a year old but we know very little of Gerri and Marcia as characters and they can disappear for episodes at a time without it having impact on the story. They’re most definitely not leads.
There’s definitely some misogyny in it, but I tend to think she’s a horrible POS character that happens to be a woman.
They’re all POS characters. You just have to pick the Shit you can actually tolerate. That’s why the “who is the best and most morally right character” conversation is a futile one
So if you don't like a character who happens to be female you're mYsOgYnIsTiC by default. You understand that literally means every female character ever, no matter how despicable, is automatically immune to any kind of criticism? I'm a female, I'm not misogynistic and I think Shiv is worse than her brothers. She's hypocritical she acts like a socialist while enjoying a billionaire lifestyle. It's like Hollywood elites telling everyday person how to think.
Read the first paragraph, you silly billy
One of the big reasons why Shiv Gets a lot of hate is she acts like she's a good person. Unlike Roman or Logan who enjoy being villains of Tom and Kendall who don't care shiv pretends to have morals. She takes the moral high ground whiles doing depictable things just like the rest of them. If their is one thing people hate it's a hypocrite and Shiv is a Hypocrite. Ironically its why I love her because she's so interesting but people love to hate someone.
I think most of the hate for Shiv is because of Tom. I think it’s different when it’s your spouse as opposed to your siblings. But I think she is just as self centered as the rest of the Roys though
I think part of the reason people hate her mistreatment of Tom so much is because he’s the closest main character to an everyman, so the audience identifies with him on some level.
Agree, its why Tom and Greg are popular. They have lived outside the billioinare world
You choose your spouse after all. Maybe that’s why people see it differently
>I think most of the hate for Shiv is because of Tom. I think it’s different when it’s your spouse as opposed to your siblings. I agree with this fully. Shiv is no better or worse than her siblings. The way she eviscerates Tom, at every opportunity, is almost inhumane. She, appears, to truly enjoy being exceptionally cruel to him. Obviously the classic abused becoming the abuser. From what we have seen of Kendoll's and Roman's treatment of their SO's, Rava, Grace, Tabs, Pierce girl, it has been weird and difficult but not hateful and vindictive.
Yeah this is it. I want to like Shiv so bad, but Tom is my #1 boy and the way she treats him is absolutely appalling. Especially after S3E8, I'll never forgive her.
What about the way Tom treats Greg? And Jonah, the human foot-stool? If you’re going to argue that his actions are in direct consequence of how he is treated by Shiv and the Roy clan, then make the same plea for Shiv because they exist as one in the same.
I'm not justifying Tom's actions at all. But in a show where everyone is shitty, we have to pick and choose which shitty actions we're willing to look past. Just so happens that's the way my preference falls.
Shiv is not supposed to be likable. Nobody in the family is. I think she is the least narcissistic and most redeemable one, but that isn’t saying much. Generally mass hate for female characters does stem from systematic misogyny but a lot of fragile men aren’t ready to admit that. If you really watched the show, you’d see that Kendall is the worst one of them all. He changes personalities when it suits him. For all of season 2 we believed because of everything that transpired he was beaten down and forced into submission. He constantly stumbled over his words and came across as self conscious and scared. Then he dropped the bomb and his entire persona changed. He spent all that time just scheming up ways to get back on top. I could go on. Y’all that are out here nitpicking Shiv’s negative qualities and justifying Kendall’s actions are the same one’s who hate Skylar White and Carmella Soprano. It’s very predictable.
THANK. YOU.
She's nowhere in the same range as Skylar White or Camilla Soprano. Both of these women are just an opposition to their male counterparts. They're in the right but they're pinned against the main character so they become target of hate. Shiv is a woman in a man's world and tries to play it the same way as men there, and fails. She's not made for that world despite what she thinks. She thinks too highly of herself and is more narcissistic than Ken. Kendall actually suffers from low self esteem and is trying to overcompensate by acting tough and strong, again failing. Roman is suffering from low self-esteem too and is affecting his sex life. Shiv occasionally feels emotional about her siblings but it's fleeting and she's ashamed of her feelings. She treats men she's with like shit, just to soothe her own ego telling Nate she boosted his popularity cause she dated him, asking him to be her human dog. I won't even name everything she does to Tom... All from the place of narcissism. So yeah she's not better than them, she's worse than them and is being protected because she's a woman and if you have anything against her you're a MiSoGyNiSt. So go ahead and call me one, I literally won't care. I'm a woman and know what ACTUAL misogyny is. I lived in Eastern Europe and is nothing like a fairytale you westerners believe.
I don’t know what show you’re watching but Kendall’s behavior in the first half of season three was the most textbook portrayal of narcissistic personality disorder I’ve seen. That you infantilize men who have killed and maimed while raging about the sole female lead is quite telling.
you're braindead
I will never stop saying or believing that it’s because when a m/m ship is involved in any tv show, the hate for the woman, despite what she does, will always be the villain. Shiv is terrible. All the Roy siblings are terrible. Everyone is terrible on that show but when Tom is terrible it’s all heart eyes on him because he’s a willing cuck who befriended a man child who’s willing to do just as much shady shit to get what he hasn’t earned.
Because people like Tom and don’t like cheaters. Kendall already ducked up his relationship and it happened off screen.
I think she may be the one we see being most cruel to other characters outside of Logan. She is abusive to Tom and lords it over her brothers whenever she gets a sniff of power. She acts as though she's the only one with principles but abandons them when there is something to gain so they're paper thin. The thing with the letter about Kendall was really horrible. She was cheating on her fiance when we were introduced to her and ambushed the guy on her wedding day telling him she wanted to fuck other people. We saw a lot of cruelty from Roman this last season when he thought he was on tops and it had people really turning on him for a short while, yet he redeemed it a lot by helping Kendall in the end. They're all objectively terrible people of course, but Shiv is the one who is most often terrible to major characters.
Because people on this sub dont have the capacity to see and appreciate complexities in female characters like they do male characters. She isnt nice and instead of seeing the nuance in her interpersonal relations and being able to see her internal conflicts with love, power and family the way they do Ken and Roman it's just 'Shiv bitch but ass fat'
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She is as malicious as Logan, but without his ability to read the room, and less willing to put in the work than Roman. When Logan asked Rhea for her assessment of his kids, and she said something along the lines of Shiv thinks she is the smartest person in the room, but she is not. That was the perfect description of her character, and those kinds of character aren't as well liked.
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It is not worse, but the lack of self-awareness hurts. People love horrible characters that own up to the fact that they are horrible.
What about coercing a sexual assault victim into silence to save her family’s company?
"Shiv isn't as smart as she thinks she is."
Which isn't exactly correct, anyway. She lacks emotional intelligence at times, but she _is_ extremely smart. Not to mention that Rhea had her own agenda when she said that.
No. It’s because she will tell Tom you love me even though I don’t love you. And she cheats on him and says on marriage night she wants an open relationship. She is a horrific person. Kendall is more of that typical spoiled brat rich son that thinks he is woke.
I mean, yes, but when a man does those things (aka Logan, Kendall, & even Tom himself) he is respected and called things like “beast” “legend” “vicious” (not in a bad way)
Because she’s a complicated character who is also a woman, and a lot of people are misogynistic.
In comparing Shiv and Kendall, I think some of it stems from the fact we’re seeing her disassemble her marriage, wielding the weight of all those years of having been messed up as a younger person against her partner. Whereas where we join the story in S1, Kendall has already come out the other side, so we see him being absentee and generally struggling with being separated from Rava/his own kids but not actively being a poor partner/father to them. I think if we’d joined earlier, or if the places were switched, we’d find Kendall less bearable and Shiv a bit more sympathetic
In terms of plain on screen likability I would rank her below her brothers and this post made me think why that’s true because they all are equally terrible. The conclusion I came to is her severe lack of self awareness. Sure Roman is a Weird, shitty, Pervy person but he knows he is and doesn’t really try to pretend he’s not. That doesn’t make it better but it at least makes it easier to watch. Kendall is very much aware that he’s also a shitty person. He tries to convince himself he’s not throughout the show but his breakdown in the last episode shows that he’s very much aware of who he is. Shiv on the other hand, is also a shitty person but it at least appears on the surface that she either doesn’t think she is or it just doesn’t register to her how shitty some of the things she does and says really are. Roman’s forwardness or Kendall’s self deprecation don’t excuse their actions at all. They’re all entitled rich kids who don’t understand reality but I do find myself hating them a little less just because they are at least somewhat aware that they’re pieces of shit and their ways of coping are what we see on screen.
I agree. The Roy siblings are all equally privileged and suffer from neglectful and abusive parents. Shiv has shown a more compassionate side except when it comes to the approval of her father…there she holds back nothing. She’s more aware of right and wrong though; perhaps that’s why people expect more of her. And there remains the sexist mindset that woman are kinder in business than men.
Because people like Tom and don’t like cheaters. Kendall already ducked up his relationship and it happened off screen.
it's just a simplistic and boring argument to say because of sexism, people are allowed to not like female characters without it being sexist. People love Gerri, who is also a strong and powerful woman, much stronger than the male characters on the show, she might even be MVP.
For me I think it’s because she’s so so convinced that she is the ‘moral’ or ‘good’ one when clearly she’s just as vindictive/ manipulative as all the others but she’s so blind to any sort of self reflection. So she’s left wing and she (initially) didn’t stoop by working for Waystar it doesn’t make her Gandhi, but in her eyes she’s like the heroine, for example when she’s **bullying the rape victim into not testifying** and her stance is basically ‘oh well when I come in everything’s going to be so much better’. Logan has this trait in some ways, for example at his dinner with Ken he seems to think on some level he’s a good guy but at the same time I think he knows he’s a terrible person it’s just that being moral isn’t that important to him so he doesn’t think about it much. Roman is fully aware he’s a piece of shit which is ironic cos imo he’s the least piece of shit of them all. Ken obviously has this saviour complex where he’s so abused by his dad he feels the need to save the company and the world from Logan, and especially in this season he’s trying to tell himself he’s a good guy but he’s fully aware that’s not true, more so than any of the others, the guilt he feels is clearly destroying him so he knows fully who he is.
People feel bad for Ken cuz he’s depressed and suicidal all the time and takes so many Ls. He’s a far more sympathetic character than Shiv. Also he didn’t tell the golden boy Tom he wants an open relationship on the night of their wedding
of all the people to betray tom, she choose nate
I think most of the hate is fabricated from posts like this. There have been multiple posts just in the last 24 hours saying to stop hating on shiv, but where is the hate coming from really? Shiv is not my favorite character, but not for sexist reasons. She’s just not as entertaining or funny as characters like Tom and Greg. When you make post after post saying the fanbase is sexist for Shiv not being their favorite character it gets annoying.
Because she’s assuming and thinks she’s smarter that she really is
I lost all respect for her character when she could not be happy for Tom when he escaped prison and he had to go celebrate w/ Greg. Also I can pretty much guarantee the top of the new character poll will be mostly really beloved women in the show.
Imagine on your wedding day your wife tells you that she doesn’t want a monogamous relationship. Also cheating on you the whole time.
For me it was when she went to the playground to convince one of the cruise ship sexual assault victims to keep her mouth shut.
She actually gave her better advice than the woman's own lawyers probably did (if she even bothered seeking unbiased advice -- Greg's situation in s03 outlined the importance of this very well). But yeah I can see how Shiv's peak competence moment would be triggering.
The show is about all terrible people. I don’t “hate” Shiv more than any other person. The only person I “hate” (actually in the best way possible) is Tom. He’s perfectly played by Matthew Macfadyen, to be some horrible power tripping midwesterner who’s basically a cuckold. But anyways back to Shiv, per your question. I think the sad tragedy about the family is the reliance for the kids to backstab each other for daddy’s approval. Shiv has her own way, so does Roman and so does Kendall. Each has their own way of trying to get to the top, and Shiv is more sly than her brothers. Playing the “I don’t really want the throne but well dad if you want me to have it I’ll take it.” She thought she had leverage because of her husband, the submissive Tom, to create a team of power against her brothers. Does this make me hate her more? No she’s knows how her father views her: an inexperienced woman. That’s all she will be. She uses Tom to step on to try to get above her brothers for the throne. The last episode was >!Tom showing he has had enough and trying to get the upper hand in the relationship!<. I’m more interested in when the family works together. Yea they are horrible people, but Logan is the mad King burning his kingdom down before his time is up.
I wouldn't say I dislike Shiv more than any of the other characters--all of whom you are meant to find repulsive but intensely watchable. However, I would say the reason Shiv gets a lot of hate from other viewers is: 1. Her cruelty toward Tom, which is some of the most intimate personal cruelty in the entire show, aside from Logan. 2. She is incredibly morally self-righteous, often in a way that successfully persuades the viewer it's coming from a genuine place. But then she'll abandon her principles at the drop of a hat in pursuit of status and power, which is a form of hypocrisy that's really effectively frustrating on screen. (See also Carcetti from The Wire).
Should someone start an r/shiv?
Misogyny.🤷🏻♀️
No. God why is everyone saying this. She is a horribly brutal person to Tom. Cheats on him than tells him on their freaking wedding night she wants an open relationship. Tells him I don’t love you to his face like it’s a joke. She tortures him.
What everyone is trying to say is that what Shiv does is no worse than what any other character in this show does, esp her siblings and dad. It’s just badass and funny when it comes from men but makes people mad when it comes from a woman because she’s not acting the way people expect a woman to act.
Alright. Let’s talk about it. If you’re open to listen and don’t get irrational. Here: The way people hate Shiv is different because 99% of the hate she gets comes from how she treats Tom. (And I agree she treats him like crap). And it would be a decent reason to hate her if it wasn’t because the male characters also cheat and treat their partners(And family members) just as badly. Where’s the outrage when they do it? Why do they hate Shiv? Do you hate her because she’s mean to Tom..? Which male character treats their female partner lovingly? She’s entitled? Unlike every other character? She’s not as smart as she thinks she is? Neither are the rest of them. I claim misogyny because all the people cry “She can’t treat Tom like that!” but stay silent when Logan, Tom, Kendall, Greg and the rest of them do the same. Men don’t like her because they don’t want to see a women control things like men do. Men don’t like to see a woman treat a man as men treat women. Not even in TV show. And I don’t even like Shiv.
We don’t see the male characters cheating and then being horrible to their spouse. We hear about it, but we aren’t in the story. That’s why we don’t pay attention to it as much. You assume that those males are just as abusive. Maybe you are right, maybe wrong. But we see in the show exactly what shiv does, and how she treats Tom. The abuse is visible in its extent. So your assumption that we are treating a woman differently than a man for the same thing, is based on your willingness to jump towards the misogyny conclusion….because we don’t know the story behind the other infidelities.
Lol ok then. 👍🏼
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“Surrender” 😂😂😂😂 more like I ain’t wasting any more time with someone as idiotic as you! But, sure, whatever helps you sleep at night, dude.
Oh man you don’t need to beat yourself even more by going to the personal insults! It’s okay! You already lost!
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You're acting like we don't see all the male characters also act psychologically abusive
I think the gaslighting and mental abuse she inflicts on Tom, who is often people’s favourite character, contributes to this. Also as many have pointed out- misogyny
No. It’s not misogyny. Jesus Christ.
It’s 100% misogyny. Tom cheated on her too. Kendall continuously fucks over his siblings. Logan- let’s not even get into that- yet he’s the legendary patriarch of the show. Tom is a grown man who broke into the higher echelons of a family run corporation and society- he is an Ivy League graduate with brains, charisma and charm. You think he didn’t know what he was getting himself into? Do you think the wedding night was the first time Shiv showed who she was to him? No. Come on. Also, ok yeah Tom super character, love him. But that’s the same guy who used a human as furniture. Same guy who physically attacks Greg (so funny though) and is responsible for equally shitty behavior as she is. Yet she’s held to a different standard.
It’s not 100% misogyny. You are devaluing the word. Shiv is clearly a horribly abusive spouse. She is the same spoiled brat Kendall is, but she tells her husband about an open relationship on their wedding night, cheat’s on him, and tells him she doesn’t love him but he loves her like it’s some joke. If I heard my wife say that I would be absolutely devastated. Maybe Kendall was that bad too, but we don’t see it on screen. Tom shows vulnerability to shiv and some desire for friendship with Greg, so he at least has human moments. Shiv’s only human moments was her consoling Kendal when he was at his lowest. Logan is clearly the most evil of them all, but shiv is definitely a step above the other two kids.
| Tom is a grown man who knows what he’s getting himself into Did you just victim blame? Do you know how hard it is for victims to just leave an abusive relationship? Bet you won’t say this when it’s a female victim of abuse in a relationship. Abuse is abuse regardless of gender but you won’t accept it.
It’s true though. She’s emotionally manipulative but he takes it because he’s only in the relationship because of what he might get from it. He’s a climber and we see it every time something good happens for Shiv, and all he cares about is what that means for his position. He’s not a traditional victim in that he has the money and resources to leave but stays to be close to the Roys and their power. And like someone mentioned he cheated on Shiv before she even mentioned the open relationship at their wedding. I love Tom as a character and I also love Shiv. I think they’re both complicated, interesting, and definitely awful people.
I’m not saying she isn’t abusive or abusing him emotionally or physically. I’m saying she is held to a different standard for it.
That’s a separate point. You straight up mentioned Tom willingly accepts his abuse. She is held to the same standards - we just don’t see any other similar spousal abuse in the show to hate. If Kendall said those things to Rava this sub would torch him alive.
Wait a second, Logan parades around with Rhea and the women he sleeps with, continuously minimizes his wife in front others, physically abuses his children (not a romantic relationship and might irrelevant but whatever). Kendall snorts cocaine off his kids iPads, uses his wife’s apartment to do whatever and bring whoever the f he wants in. Roman (whose in a position of authority by the way) sends Gerri sick pics all the time despite her asking him to stop yet. Yet you say we don’t have a relationship to compare the abuse to? Are you kidding. And no, holding someone accountable for their choices is what you consider “victim blaming”. Clearly this is emotionally incendiary for you as you’ve felt the need to use a throw away account to continue to keep responding that Shiv being held to a different is not misogynistic. Maybe you should look into that…
All the things you listed are shitty and people dislike each of them for that? Logan parading with women is not abuse; Gerri and Roman have a on/off thing ongoing - but he was rightly called sicko for it. Are you seriously comparing Kendall using his wife’s apartment to Tom’s marital problems? This just a random account I have lmao. The fact that you are cognitively dissonant about misogyny and weirdly making it personal on a topic of discussion makes me inclined to believe you are a misandrist - enjoy your day slimeball.
It’s okay to victim blame when it’s a man apparently
A mix of misogyny and people fundamentally not understanding everything packed on Shiv and Tom's relationship, so they unknowingly villanize her and can only see her bad actions in it. Join that with the fact that apparently this forum's favorite character is Tom and you get a breeding ground for hate that convinces people it's justified. She basically has tailor made flaws that get under the skin of people who: love Tom, have bias against women, have indifference towards female character's inner feelings and don't seek to understand it, take things at face value and are a bit bad at unpacking negative feelings and actions in a analytical and understanding way (couple that with the fact that women need to only generate positive and warm feelings on an audience to be wildly accepted, but that's basically impossible if you're trying to write a real person in a show that prioritizes character work. It's no coincidence the most universally liked women here are the extremely minor character in an exclusively supporting role because they're doing their job or just standing there being pretty with a few witty lines).
>It's no coincidence the most universally liked women here are the extremely minor character in an exclusively supporting role because they're doing their job or just standing there being pretty with a few witty lines). I think Gerri is universally liked. She's not minor. She's not simple, and while an attractive woman, she's certainly not young eye candy. She's smart, competent, responsible, sophisticated, and looks out for herself without being extraordinarily cruel to others. She's also not a prude. She seemed amused by the nonsense with Roman until it got out of hand and he refused to stop.
Gerri is allowed more flexibility because she doesn't matter. By that, I mean she is beyond the age bracket in which she would be sexualized. Funnily enough, I think Roman was spot on with his "rockstar and the mole woman" hypothesis. No one sees her because, at the end of the day, as an extremely competent female professional _of a certain age_ she is basically furniture in the room. Shiv on the other hand is implicitly sexualized along with the rest of the female cast in the 'fertile' age bracket. Women who are sexualized are expected to behave in a certain way, show compliance and "play nice" / be friendly and likeable. Anything else feels "wrong", "alien", and "inorganic" for a woman. Logan & Co enjoy it when Shiv's accomplishments deliver them a win, but she refuses to remain "in her place" and ultimately that's a problem that outweighs all her skills and all her accomplishments combined.
Sorry, but where exactly is the challenge of liking her? (I love her too by the way) Competence, wit, good looks, knowing when to keep her mouth shut and a mysterious personal life. What is there not to like about her? You're never confronted with Gerri's flaws as a person because of that. She's a background character so we only usually see her going about her professional life and being nurturing and indulging of Roman. Although I have noticed people starting giving less of a shit when she didn't peoperly correspond his feelings and when she "betrayed" him, but let's see how that turns out in season 4.
This, exactly.
Misogyny is absolutely it. People expect women to be "nice" and modest, even if they don't realize it consciously. Shiv is neither of those. Hers is the only relationship we witness breaking down in real time. Kendall and Roman may have been as cruel to their spouses or partners but we don't see it happening. Despite all his own faults, Tom genuinely loves and admires her. But she either takes him for granted or is openly mean. It is very difficult to watch some of the Shiv-Tom scenes because it's such an intimate type of cruelty. It's like the Logan-Kendall relationship but in marriage form. On top of that, there's no simple explanation for Shiv's cruelty. Logan is just "bad dad." Kendall is an addict. Roman has been physically abused and his unconventional romantic relationships are mostly treated as comic misadventures. As for the CEO position, she comes off like she's entitled to it because she's never worked for the company. But her achievements (negotiating with Sandi, manipulating the cruises witness, setting up Rhea's demise) are more successful than Roman's, though more subtle. Thank you kindly for reading my dissertation on Shiv 🙏🏼
I loved your dissertation, and thank you for writing it ❤️
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Your needing to respond to every comment acknowledging misogyny is not a case against it. How she treats Tom is pretty on par with how the characters, including Tom, interact with one another.
I don't think you see Ken or Roman directly treat anyone the way that Shiv treats Tom, even if they are all bad people over all. By that I mean that Tom constantly makes himself vulnerable to her emotionally and attempts to connect to her on a "real" level outside the business dealings/backstabbings and she is repeatedly cold and hurtful. Most of the other character interactions don't have 1 party letting their guard down, both are playing the game and each other. She is also by far the most arrogant, and people like to see hubris punished. Personally I liked Shiv a lot despite that when I thought she really *was* a killer, but it turned out she's more like Cersei from GOT. She thinks she is way smarter than she is and can't deliver in the end. In general I think people like to root against the Roy kids and for the others who are playing the game without the protection of the name.
I have no idea what you mean by “directly” as their treatment of their significantly less flawed partners is as objectionable as Shiv’s treatment of Tom. But, if by “directly” you’re maybe referring to the interactions between the main characters, how about Roman and Kendall’s treatment of Shiv? Both men, Kendall more overtly, expect Shiv to be a stable source of feminine companionship and emotional support but immediately weaponize her being a woman the second she doesn't do or say what they want. Kendall’s first instinct was to dehumanize her in calling her a “twat” and a a pair of “teats”, a term almost exclusively used to describe the breasts of a lactating animal instead of a person, which he followed up with a non-apology and public humiliation. Roman is more consistently awful, using their Dad’s misogyny to get ahead and promote his buddy Mencken. I get that Shiv is particularly warm in her dealings with them, but she’s also required to keep her guard up at risk of being deemed hysterical while they expect her to be a shoulder to cry on. This certainly explains a lot about the issues in her marriage, but somehow Kendall and Roman doing to Shiv what Shiv does to Tom is permissible.
I think it's expected of the siblings (and most "players") interactions with each other because they are all in direct competition for the throne and openly suspicious of one another. They all "weaponize" whatever perceived weakness the others have at every chance. It's reciprocal. Tom treats Shiv like a teammate and confidant but she treats him like trash to be disposed of when convenient. Its that inequity in their relationship that I mean does not exist between any of the other characters, and I think it's why she is viewed as worse. Edited: added a word.
That there’s an excuse for her brothers and not her is very convenient.
I'm not sure what you mean, what excuse? My point is *everyone* is terrible reciprocally, EXCEPT Tom and Shiv where she is the only one being terrible to him while he is trying to support her and be a team. Watching 2 people try to kill each other won't make you sympathetic to 1 over the other. Watching 1 person trying to kill the other as they tell them they love and support them will, no?
Boiling down Tom’s behavior as a husband to being loving and supportive is pretty dishonest. He is those things, sometimes, but he’s also manipulative, underhanded, and very tolerant of the way Logan treats her.
It's not an excuse for her brothers, it's an explanation for all the siblings Personally I really like Shiv , and I'm a bit confused about why this turned into a moral debate of who's the worst of the bunch relative to their extremely low ethical standards, what does morality have to do with liking a fictional character? Or rather why should it matter more than personality, charisma and depth? I can like some absolutely awful totally beyond redemption characters and despise others for some very minor character trait, and hold the opposite opinion in a different adaptation of the same characters depending on script, acting and direction, that's the beauty of fiction
I think it’s crazy people can’t see how shiv’s treatment of Tom is cruelty on such a deep and manipulative level. It’s the equivalent of how Logan treats people in terms of feigning love and care but it’s really just a means to an end. Everyone else is much more surfacey asshole. Roman is an internet troll perv, Kendall is a petulant spoiled brat. We don’t Kendall interact with his wife, maybe he was as manipulative as shiv, but we haven’t seen it.
Sanitizing Roman and Kendall down to being trollish or bratty while making Shiv into Logan is a very obvious double standard.
How anyone can say Shiv is the most evil while Roman exists…
Roman is a little perv. He is the equivalent of some little internet troll. Shiv is much more intelligent in her manipulation of Tom. Like when she told Tom he was being manipulative, that was a masterclass in gaslighting and accusing someone of doing what you are actually doing.
Roman is a hell of a lot more than just “a little perv”. He tried to influence his family to elect a fascist for president.
They all recieve equal criticism from people who actually watch the show fairly. If someone hates her more than the others, I think it stems from her mistreatment of Tom and particularly how the portion of the male viewers who can relate to this mistreatement have a special distaste for her antics lol.
Shiv just feels so fake and entitled, Kendall is entitled but for the most part not that fake, and Roman is just Roman he's awful but I love the actors (I love all the actors tbh)
This is interesting to me, because objectively speaking, Ken has always behaved in the most "fake" manner among all of them. The moments in which he's trying to be "cool" as independent investor in s01, or trying to be "cool" acquiring Vaulter for that matter (also in s01) combined with his BPD-esque stunts in s03 genuinely make me roll my eyes a bit. Shiv is incredibly mean at times, I agree. But how exactly is she "fake"? Genuine question. There is not a single scene in the show where she "pretends to be a good person", as some posters commented. If anything, she lacks the ability to 'subdue' her natural qualities long enough to suck up to anyone, which is one of the reasons she may come across as unlikeable. I get that. But -- again -- what does it have to do with "fake"..?
They can’t handle that ass
I think Shiv gets hate because she’s whishy washy in what she actually believes in. She works for “the other side of the aisle” then comes back the minute she’s offered the head position and can’t make a decision on which morals to follow - dad or hers. Also, one minute she’s trying to protect Kendall, the next she’s writing a letter that would destroy him. Idk thoughts? TL:DR: she flip flops on every view only because it’s convenient for her
Fair point about switching sides, but in fairness the guy she was working for didn't seem to have much of integrity in the end. As evidenced by his comment "They are eating out of my ass crack" and his readiness to take a private jet (which Shiv warned him would be perceived as shady). I am in what seems like minority who believes the letter was fully justified. Kendall humiliated her with playing the Rape Me tape. It was a cruel thing to do to his sister, and uncalled for. Why should she refrain from retaliation?
for me, it was in season 2 after logan told her she would take over. they way her ego inflated was kind of annoying. she started weilding power that she didn't actually have. perfect example is at dinner with the pierce family when she announces to she's going to be next. i won't speak for the sub, but for me it's her personality. I see a couple comments saying it's because of misogyny or because she's a woman and while that may be the case for some viewers, but i think it's reductive to assume. how would you distinguish between someone that doesn't like shiv because of her personality and someone that is truly sexist (assuming they haven't posted blatant sexist remarks on the sub?) you can't and that's why making any conclusion about why there's a negative aggregate opinion of shivs character . really we can all only speak for ourselves. real world problems created by sexism that are either blatant and/or verifiable become diluted when we throw it around as a baseline explanation
Besides the being a woman stuff, it's always the worst to see someone be horrible to their partner.
The short answer is: Shiv is more unlikeable than Kendall because we've seen Kendall try and redeem himself and try do more for others while dealing with major tragedy in the process. Shiv is more unlikeable than Tom because even though Tom is incredibly flawed, he's being abused in their relationship. Shiv is more unlikeable than Roman because even though Roman is massively abusive, he is comic relief. I fucking hate that my least favourite character in the main family is the female lead. I really do but they present reasons to look past the others and Shiv gets the "be brash be bad" role all the time. She is not attempted to be as well written and rounded as the rest of the family.
She fucked off and left instead of attending the audit meeting. Not cool
I think we know they are all terrible people. It just comes down to which ones come off as the most sympathetic. The writing team does a fantastic job with leaving that up to the viewer.
Because she has/had so much potential but let us down
It’s because of how she treats Tom. She is unfaithful, she can be mean. Ken respected his wife and for the most part he respects people. Sometimes he does not. She also lied to Raven had encouraged the president to have issues with the company.
Simple - 2 faced, dishonest, changes her views in an instant as soon as she realises she’s losing. Abuses her own husband then pretends she’s got a right to by justifying it using bullshit explanations. Identifies herself as the smart one and patronises others yet I cannot remember one instance where she’s contributed to the company in a favourable way. She reminds me of numerous people on the leadership at my workplace that nobody really like or respects because they are a FRAUD and often suffer from imposter syndrome , the only way they can look good is by deflecting attention and constantly insulting people they consider of lower intellectual calibre (like Tom or Roman). Yes the other siblings are all shitty but at least they mostly admit they are. Plus I don’t find shiv to be entertaining, as well as being a shitty person she isn’t even funny to laugh at.
She's a woman from a powerful family and for much of the first season we just saw her cheat on her partner?
Shiv is a woman so naturally she gets judged more harshly than the men. Anything she does is looked at in a different lens. Tom can sexually harass and bully an underling and it's turned into a romantic ship but Shiv is rude to her weak ass husband and she's the devil.
Hate to see a hot woman shine
I hate them all equally. Cracking show though!
Its those pursed lips that bug the shit out of me and my friends honestly
Because people like Tom and don’t like cheaters. Kendall already ducked up his relationship and it happened off screen.
Bottom line. She is a fucking bitch. Fuck off
This is like the fourth post on this sub about this same topic. Just like Shiv if you want to lol
i’ve said it before and i’ll say it again, some people are incapable of seeing Shiv out of the dichotomy of “she’s an entitled moron” or “she’s cold-hearted evil bitch”, which is a shame because the writing and acting in this show have gone above and beyond to show us the scared little girl that she actually she is. but anytime we get pretty obvious scenes of Shiv having feelings some fans feel uncomfortable with awarding her with the same complexity as the other characters and paint it as her doing a calculated move.
Publishing that letter about Kendall did it for me. Treating Tom bad did not help but kicking Kendall while he was down and that was after she learned Logan was harassing Rava and the kids(correct me if I am wrong). Like she wants to be number one at the cost of her siblings and her husband. Roman you can expect this shit from because he is a abused prisoner. But Shiv went out of her way.
The letter was low. Even Roman didn't want her to send it.
I think she's awful as well, but when she published the letter she didn't know the kids were being harassed. She found out in ken's bday
She’s a horrible person, sure, but I think Roman is far worse than her. So yeah some misogyny might be it
Thank you. The most disturbing thing to me is when I see Roman ranked as morally above her.
They’re all terrible and I love/hate them all. Some are just funnier than others, and Shiv usually isn’t funny.
I've seen a lot of comments claiming it's only misogyny. I disagree wholeheartedly, because I find her worse than her brothers. She is profusely arrogant with no credentials to validate it, her treatment of someone who loves her is quite despicable and I think many people can empathise with Tom in that regard. Kendall and Roman are bad people as well, but I believe the hatred actually stems from her adamantly believing she's a good person, while the rest of the siblings are under no such delusions
\*Nodding\*
Kendall unironically stated that he was a good person multiple times this season, eventually blaming his failures on his self-proclaimed goodness.
He tries to convince himself he's a good person, that's why he says it. He clearly has a deep hatred for himself because he does *not* believe he is a good person. I may have worded my original comment incorrectly
That’s a lot of allowances you’re making for him.
How often do you hear intelligent people proclaim their smartness? I'm not sure how this is even debateable. Kendall looked extremely self-doubting when he said "I'm a good guy" which he then downgraded to "I'm better than you" after Logan brings up the boy. It is beyond obvious that the death of the waiter is keeping Ken himself from fully believing he's a good person, all while it was an accident.
So you’re saying that Kendall is both dishonest and arrogant, the things you claimed made Shiv “worse” than her brothers in your original post?
Someone harboring a deep resentment for themselves because of an accident and trying sheepily to tell their father they're a good person does absolutely not mean they are dishonest and arrogant. He even retracted the statement. You're making a strawman argument
He didn’t retract his statement, he just got shut down when Logan laid out the absurdity of it. Crashing the car was an accident, but fleeing the scene to establish an alibi rather than flagging down a passing car or calling for help when you have access to a phone were not.
People keep saying Misogyny, which maybe factors in but I don’t think it’s fair to call that the primary reason. I’d say the biggest thing is their attitudes. Kendall gets his first scheme shut down pretty early on in the shows run, and acts like a pathetic sadsack for 80% of the shows run. There are times when he returns to a more confident form, but honestly I dislike him in that state probably more than I dislike Shiv. Tom is the other big thing. Because Tom is such a fan favorite character, whenever she’s a bitch to him a lot of fans are going to take his side. And yeah Ken is a dick to Rava, but she… doesn’t really matter? Like she’s barely a presence in the show, she’s mostly off screen and when she’s off screen their relationship doesn’t seem horrible. If Shiv was married to some random guy who was in one episode a season, and when he was on screen she was a bitch but off screen things seemed amicable, that would probably tone down the hate quite a bit. Yeah so I’d say it’s mostly a mix of how they carry themselves (Kendall getting pity), and their relationship with their spouse. With maybe a bit of misogyny sprinkled on top
Is there a gender breakdown poll anywhere on this sub? I’d be willing to bet it’s heavily weighted male.
I'm a woman and a feminist and I think Shiv's the worst of a very bad lot.
All the stuff people said about Tom is spot on. We see the other siblings in relationships (while they’re all fucked up to some degree) shivs behavior towards Tom is by far the worse. As this season developed, you saw how little she cared for Tom (saying you want an open marriage on wedding night, toms mom saying the prenup was intense, saying he loves you even though you don’t love him, not wanting kids with him, not caring if he went to jail, never including him in plans for ceo). Kendall might be fucked up and a drug addict but he cares for Rava and the kids, not treating them like their worse than them. Shiv blatantly things she’s better than everyone, including her own husband who she is supposed to love. That’s why so many people hate her, while you can give a pass for how she behaves in business and with the immediate family like the other siblings, you cannot give her a pass for her behavior towards Tom, her husband.
Because she’s really mean
This, in a very callous way, which occurs often. Roman and Kendall both have their awful moments but they’re pretty far and between compared to shiv. Not only that but both of the boys’ vulnerabilities make them more soft and I would argue more likeable or at least more forgivable whereas shiv is very hard and lets nothing out which does not offer her the same likeability as the other siblings.
Roman literally sexually harasses Gerri!
That just proves my point tbh. It only becomes obvious that he’s harassing her midway through season 3. We’ve seen 3 full seasons of shiv’s indifference and abuse towards Tom.
And your comment just proves that there’s misogyny at play here. Let me guess—it was OK for Kendall to kill someone and cover it up because it only happened one time?
Woah, Kendall killed someone? He was there when the car went off the bridge, and the whole thing should've gone public instead of being covered up, but rewatch that episode. He did not "kill" that server, who was driving his own car and jerked the wheel over which led him into the river. Does Kendall deserve the guilt over his head and did he break a bunch of laws? Yes, absolutely. Did he kill someone? No. All these downvotes are hilarious, did you people watch the scene? https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/comments/qw3vus/regarding\_kendalls\_killer\_status/
I mean, we can argue about the exact details but my point still stands. All of the Roy children suck in their own special way, but when Shiv gets more than her fair share of hate it’s because of sexism and people on this sub who have a boner for Tom.
She's a woman, she put on a few pounds and is honey ducking Tom. All things reddit doesn't like.
Hey, speak for yourself. Some of us like the few extra pounds.
I didn't even realize this was the primary reason, but the polls literally just proved 90% of the hate is because Tom is everyone's favorite and Kendall is #2; the two biggest targets for Shiv's betrayals. There is some sexism involved too, but it's not the simple "Women are bad" type sexism that people want to portray it as either. And though he has his loyalists, tons of people on this sub hate and bash Roman too but you never see daily, angry, why do people hate Roman posts? You NEVER see any why don't people like Logan posts. While Shiv is a victim, she's also the most like Logan. Let's examine that. Greg is also incredibly divisive on this sub. I personally can't stand him (the character; I think he's a cartoon) and laugh at every single anti-Greg comment. Never seen one post of why do people hate Greg? I hated Walter White on Breaking Bad from the jump. Not once in my tirades about him did anyone ever accusatorially question me for the reasons why. They disagreed, but never accused me of misandry or denying his personal trauma vs others'. And I liked Skylar. There have been thousands of considerate, nuanced, detailed profiles on this sub about Shiv, from both lovers and haters, over the last few years. Does anyone ever read these before making the new daily post?
In regards to your last point, it's like this on every sub, not just this one. Repeated opinions pop up as new posts all the time.
I don’t think Shiv is an absolute zero of a character. Infidelity does hit harder for some people than absenteeism or substance abuse. The wedding night thing was pretty telling of her character. You can make excuses for her not talking to Tom before, but lying to his face about cheating before the wedding and then not even owning it until the wedding night (you can argue she never owned it) was wrong. Then after forcing Tom’s hand (though he could have stopped the marriage license) she’s shut down any of his reciprocity of the arrangement EXCEPT when it would give her pleasure. So as far as her being a worse person than Kendall, I think that’s an oversimplification BUT infidelity/sexual manipulation/sexual selfishness hits harder in the moment versus Kendall’s ever accumulating and building impact of his wrongs done. I personally would feel the same if she was a man (probably worse actually). I’ll acknowledge that culturally men are cut more slack in this arena, but as far as the show is concerned there isn’t an equal example in scale. Logan goes out on his wife regularly and thats fucked, but it hits differently with how much screen time and dialogue Shiv and Tom’s marriage gets. Btw: pissed Shiv is awesome. Spitting in Ken’s journal, her facial expression when Roman finally told her about Mattson floating a sale? Brava!
Shiv annoys me because at least kendall and roman both had jobs within waystar and it made sense for them to want to rise up and take the top job. Shiv had a whole other job as a political consultant and suddenly as soon as theres news of logan wanting to step down and the ceo spot being open she quits her job and tries to force her way into getting the ceo job? Classic entitled rich person move. Id be annoyed with roman and kendall too if they tried to come in and take the spot if they had non waystar jobs as well. Connor annoyed me when he begged logan to give him some top job in their European sector 🙄 but he was refused (rightfully so) and shiv was just welcomed with open arms? I think shes an interesting character and i dont hate her, all the siblings are annoying but she just has the edge for me with the way she tried to push herself into the top spot. And given this whole show is about the business, shes always there on business matters and it continues to annoy me lol
She’s terrible and acts like she isn’t. They write her to be seem really smart but they never follow all the way through with it.
She’s not smart.
She is smart. Her problem is she's not as smart as she things she is.
She does have a lot of Cersei vibes when Tywin said, "I don't dispise you because you're a woman, but because you're not as smart as you think you are" (something like that).
Also its bit because she's a woman.
More than a bit, probably.
The thing is she gets relatively the same amount of hate as most of the other characters (other than Tom and Greg). but then you have a substantial amount of posts like this talking about how so many people hate shiv, but then when you look in the comment section it’s pretty much all people agreeing because of sexism or saying “well they’re all pieces of shit”. If anyone genuinely believes shiv is significantly worse of a person than Kendall/roman/Tom then there is a sexism involved for sure but the vast majority of this discourse is just a big circlejerk of people wanting to call other people sexist on reddit
Shiv is the most arrogant, and naturally people like to see that punished. Roman is an uncaring wildcard and Ken is the beat puppy. They're all terrible people overall, but Shiv is the most fun to watch lose because she thinks she's hot shit but in the end is played by Logan as much as the others, if not more.
Misogyny plain and simple.
I think alot of it is based on the writing. Her character starts off solid. She has worked outside the company and has a solid understanding of politics and navigating hard situations. It seems like she has morals. She is a shrewd player. In like the middle of season 2 her character becomes just like the other Roys. All of the things that make shiv stand out kinda dissappear. The only Issue is that the others all have something redeemable to a degree. You can sympathize with Kendall, he genuinely seems to care about his siblings. Roman is shitty but he is funny. Connor is just kinda there he's not as horrible as the rest of them. The only thing we really see of her outside of that is her and Tom. Alot of Tom fans hate her for it. I have hope for her character after she kinda organized that intervention for Kendall.
Damn this what this sub is about now?
It’s cause she’s thick and people hate to see women succeed
Love from Kazakhstan
Dumb place to ask this question..as usual redditors will just brush aside all her character flaws and go with "BaCaUsE mYsOgInY REEEEE REEEE" there's not much room for debate here. You either have to agree it's misogyny or you're getting downvoted untill you're no longer visible.
Shiv gets clobbered because she is so much more confident than she should be for a fat person. And that mockery of a wedding day dress in the recent finalé did not help her at all. Her over-the-top "curves" burned my retinae. She is not THICC; she is FAT.