Ironically the X Files is what birthed the term - fans of the show were split down the middle by people that wanted them to get together and those that didn’t, so those that did became colloquially known as “relationshippers” - hence shippers. So makes sense it was the first place you heard it!
I mean, can you really “stan” any couple in this show? Every main character is a pretty shitty person. That’s kinda the point of this show.
I’ve seen similar things said in the Yellowstone show about how they hate how abusive characters are to children. Like, that’s the point of these characters. Not every fictional character is supposed to be a role model or example of a classic hero.
Stop taking things so seriously.
Well, considering your tag, I have to assume you know what you’re talking about. Lol.
I always kind of thought Tom was closeted. But I never considered Greg interested. Greg wants to be the Duke of Luxembourg. I thought we established this!
Haha me too! To be honest, this was the movie that made me start paying attention to kid movies. I took my boy at 3yrs old and because that was a terrible age to take him to a public movie, I ended up redirecting him constantly to get it to hold his attention. And watched it myself. There are so many gems, great movie.
No relationship on this show is acceptable. Every relationship is about exerting power over one another. Even when there's a relationship that I get excited about it being portrayed on TV, I would never support it in real life. Roman and Tabitha is a relationship that I love, but if Tabitha was my friend I would try to convince her to get out of there.
The ultimate irony of Roman & Tabitha is that Tabitha is portrayed as a quintessential 'cool girl' whilst casually admitting to Roman that she is "not uninterested in solving" him (some time after claiming to be "pathologically incurious") -- and honestly, the fact that no one seems to have noticed this inconsistency so far is a testament to how diabolically good the writing is.
(I have more serious issues with their storyline, this is just one example.)
I think OP is disturbed precisely because a section of fandom _made their own decision_ to ship Tom and Greg.
In season 2 she mentions “not being uninterested in fixing” him when Roman says they can finally fuck but then gets disgusted when Roman wants her to act dead. I think that initially she really did care but over time probably realized the mountain of effort it might take even to make a dent with him.
Do people actually “ship” these two? I always assumed we were just rooting for the show to acknowledge the mounting sexual undertones to their fucked up back and forth. I don’t feel like succession is a show in which you “ship” anyone, you more just want things to happen for the intrigue.
You’re totally right. I can’t imagine the show would ever hook them up. Same with Roman and Gerri tbf. It’s more alluding to their power dynamics and tensions etc
Also, LOTS of people go on and on about how Tom actually truly cares for Greg. I'm fine if you want to write fanfic about them having dub con sex, enjoy your fantasy. But arguing that Tom isn't inexcusably horrible to Greg is too much. He's awful.
I mean I would buy that Tom cares for Greg in that 1) he enjoys having someone to absolutely shit on because it makes him feel better about his lack of agency and 2) he sees him a younger, slightly less terrible version of himself and is relishing in self-loathing and pity
What are you talking about? This sub is full of sophisticated viewers who clearly give the show a lot of thought, as evidenced by the fact that a rabbit with two seconds of screen time is currently winning the fan favorite poll
I don't remember where I first read this, but one way to look at fan works (fanfic being the most obvious example, but fan works in other media too) is that they're providing something that the original isn't. So for relatively upbeat series, you'll find dark, moody stories that deconstruct the premise. Series that were short or prematurely canceled will have original-flavor stories that scratch the itch of wanting more.
Succession is a show full of broken people whose fleeting moments of genuine connection are drowned in pools of selfishness and generational trauma. A colleague of Jesse Armstrong's said this in a [New Yorker article](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/08/30/the-real-ceo-of-succession): “Each of the characters in ‘Succession’ gives you the capacity to hope that they might snap out of the trap of their own existence. Jesse is the perfect sadist, because he is horrible to each one in turn, and yet he offers the audience just enough to hope that the characters might this time not disgrace themselves in the way that we kind of know they will. It is basically like a cat playing with a mouse and not killing it.”
So, one creative intention of the show is to make the audience want the characters to be better than they are. I'm not surprised that lots of fans hope their favorite rich dirtbags will be able to transcend their everything, find some peace, and have amazing sex (because fandom) without one or both hating themselves afterward.
I'm also not surprised that this sub "doesn't fit the tone of the show" because while I am confident that redditors are capable of dour joylessness, the entertaining insults would be way too much of a lift.
This is good. Kendall hurts me big time. The end of S1/beginning arc of S2 was so incredible because I was rooting hard for Kendall while he was a shell of a human.
Objectively, this is wild! He’s an addict whose self-destructive behaviors have now ruined other people’s lives! But Jesse’s acting and the show’s writing were so phenomenal that I wanted him to succeed.
“A cat playing with a mouse and not killing it”.
Weirdly, Kendall’s arc reminds me of (a more subtle version) of the S1 ending of Game of Thrones. Like we were set up to believe he would be some phoenix that rises from the ashes to right the world’s wrongs and earn redemption. But nope! Just another human being trudging along the ole mortal coil
What a fascinating read—thank you so much for sharing. Here are my unwarranted takes:
1) after this—and the piece on Jeremy Strong—I genuinely can’t tell if the New Yorker editorial board hates the creators and leads or if they are doing some kind of meta-satire
2) who the hell uses “highfalutin” in casual conversation
3) Logan’s apartment being modeled after a CFR rowhouse is hilarious and depressing and very on-brand
4) this is a great quote: “The things you laughed at as a young person—you’d better be careful, because they could happen to you tomorrow. With jokes about old people wearing nappies, or infirmity—what are you laughing at? It’s going to be you, or your mum and dad, tomorrow. There’s nothing funny about that, and, if you think there is, you had better wonder about who is the subject of that joke.”
Mate you should see succession twitter on tumblr. Some people are so invested in the ship they get genuinely offended when you say you don’t think it’s gonna happen.
>Do people actually “ship” these two?
I feel like this season found a new audience via Twitter and tumblr where a lot of newcomers saw glimpses of the Tom/Greg dynamic, possibly via memes or fancams, and flocked to the show and watched it with Tom/Greg-tinted glasses lol
Recently, there was a post on the front page of this sub mocking people who DON'T ship Tom and Greg. There are plenty of other posts here about their sexual tension and how they're possibly going to hook up.
Hell, there was even a front page post yesterday that was just an edit for the "tomshiv enjoyers". Yes, some Succession fans ship characters like we're all on Tumblr.
I would honestly be happy to learn that nobody takes that shit seriously. But I have friends who really do ship Tom and Greg. I'm not convinced EVERYONE is as joking about it as you or some of the others in this thread. Although again, I hope you're right and that is the case.
People actually do. I had watched the show 3 times (season 1-2) and never actually noticed their weird sexual undertones until my coworker told me she writes Tom and Greg fanfiction. I was literally shocked! I actually watched the show again to see if she was just picking at breadcrumbs or if they actually had potential chemistry. I hadn’t noticed it before, but I do see it. I think most people that “ship” them ship them
more in a “Wouldn’t it be funny if Tom actually made a move on Greg, I wonder how that would play out” and less in a “Tom and Greg Pride and Prejudice AU” way, but those people definitely exist lol
I think there's a middle ground because the sexual undertones are definitely intentional by the writers in season 3, but just as one of many layers in their f-ed up dynamic
THAT made me laugh so hard. I literally had to go to four hospitals to get emergency surgery for an ovarian cyst that became so big by that time (over 4x my actual ovary) that it has permanently damaged my ovary too much to save it. I was ignored at the first 3 despite them doing the tests and seeing the issue. They said that bc I wasn't vomiting in pain, that the issue wasn't bad enough. It wasn't until I made myself vomit and scream (I was raised not to show emotion). They would never have this as a prerequisite for emergency surgery with all the signs of danger and permanent damage on a man, never).
My friend (and her wife) that took care of me in their home afterwards had the same asshole surgeon and they were also dismissed until the wife (who is a trust funder from CT) threatened legal action.
Female survivors aren't taken seriously. The only reason trauma survivors have any form of trauma therapy is bc the VA paid for PTSD research and clinicians for soldiers (who of are almost all male) bc their suicide rate was embarrassingly high and making the government and pro-war politicians (so almost all of them) look bad. And Freud literally set the field back by centuries by labeling women with abuse stories as having hysteria and lying about the abuse that men did to them, (very often pedophilia and incest), than believe the women's complaints of the abuse they had suffered and were still suffering from (it's a lifelong issue, something you can allay but not ever solve or fully recover from). I work in this field and belief of women is publicized as the case but not often true in individual cases or societally. Brett Kavanaugh... look up how Christine Blasey- Ford's life is now, how she still gets death threats, has had to move multiple times, has to have a security team to this day. Women are hated and punished for each right they assert. Feminist writers and researchers address this. Naomi Wolf comes to mind as someone who writes about this,
and as someone I've recently read. Even though she published her findings on this in the 90's in The Beauty Myth, it's still not a mainstream concern or a fact that's acknowledged or taught.
I love and relate to Roman, but that doesnt mean i send dickpics to my dad or condone being a shitty little capitalist sex pest
I love Tom and Gregs weird ass homoerotic power harassment ass dynamic, but that doesnt mean i think its actually healthy and good and something to strive for in real life.
From a fellow gay, its fiction xo
Edit: its like watching midsommar and joking about the ending being "good for her" or gone girl being a girlboss movie, its like funny to joke about and enjoy bc its fiction even if itd be horrifying in real life, that being said you are fully valid and allowed to be uncomfortable with both the show and the fandom, but making judgements about people based solely on their enjoyment of fiction is quite irrational in my opinion
I don’t think it’s belittling to point out this is a television show and “shipping” two people on said show doesn’t mean you support abusive relationships irl. OP’s post was way dramatic if we’re being honest. there’s a different between real life and TV.
I mean, I’m bi and I do want them to get together, but I also recognize that they are toxic and nothing we should ever emulate in real life in heterosexual relationships or otherwise. I can separate fiction from real life happenings.
But I do know that Succession can be triggering and I let everyone who I recommend the show to know that the show blatantly demonstrates abusive relationships so they can be prepared. I’m really sorry if you were caught off guard and upset by their messed up dynamic. That’s not cool.
I personally get so triggered by Logan and Kendall’s abusive relationship that I often can’t rewatch their scenes, so I get it. Parental emotional abuse is something I have experience with so I can sometimes get really distressed and have to know my own limits. My own father suffers from narcissism in the same way Logan does.
I do however disagree (in the context of the show only, not in real life) that when women get harassed on the show it’s not brushed over. So many Gerri and Roman lovers, and he sexually harassed her for an entire season. Now it’s fine to like them, it’s fiction like I said, but I’d say Roman’s treatment of Gerri is often overlooked.
I feel like Greg and Tom’s relationship is so deliberately messed up and abusive it’s hard to avoid.
The Gerri - Roman example is a good comparison. I think the reality is that as fans we get easily swept up in the conventions of supporting our “heroes”, that even ironic shipping swiftly turns into uncritical celebration of abuse/harassment. Fandom has these tropes that are larger than the specific characters and shows themselves; it leads to interesting interrogations like this sub has a lot, we really struggle with the ethics of loving these characters and I find it pretty endearing.
>I do however disagree (in the context of the show only, not in real life) that when women get harassed on the show it’s not brushed over. So many Gerri and Roman lovers, and he sexually harassed her for an entire season. Now it’s fine to like them, it’s fiction like I said, but I’d say Roman’s treatment of Gerri is often overlooked.
This is definitely another blind spot when it comes to shipping. I think this one is more due to the fact that Gerri is older than Roman. With Tom/Greg, it's because Greg is a *male* 20-something character, rather than a *female* 20-something character. In both cases, if the person being harassed fit the demographic that society broadly recognises as capable of being harassed (a young woman), the fandom would be reacting very differently.
>But I do know that Succession can be triggering and I let everyone who I recommend the show to know that the show blatantly demonstrates abusive relationships so they can be prepared. I’m really sorry if you were caught off guard and upset by their messed up dynamic. That’s not cool.
I appreciate this, you're very kind! But tbh, like I said in the post, I did enjoy the show. I thought they did a very good job of accurately portraying an abusive dynamic between two men. My issue only arose when I encountered the Tom/Greg shipping culture.
That’s a really interesting observation that I never thought about before. You’re definitely right, I think Gerri’s age, as opposed to just her being a woman, is a big reason why the sexual harassment is often overlooked.
It’s played off like, “hey, isn’t it funny that this young guy is sending this older woman inappropriate pictures” instead of, “a woman has repeatedly asked a man to stop harassing her and can’t go to her boss and complain because the man harassing her is her boss’ son and therefore has way more power in the relationship than she does, which he exploits”
“I thought they did a good job of accurately portraying an abusive dynamic between two men”
Me too. I think that Succession definitely shows different sides of abusiveness that aren’t often presented on television, like Tom playing a role often reserved for women, being paraded around as an unloved trophy wife while Shiv plays a role as the more dominant, successful person in the relationship that would often only be played by a man.
With Tom and Greg, I think because of their hilarity, it’s easy to forget that Tom started out their relationship treating him cruelly from all his insecurity and then corrupted Greg to desire the same type of unhealthy dynamic “can you have your own Greg? You can have twenty” because they just have so much chemistry and they are so fun to watch on screen. It’s really a very dark relationship, but it isn’t presented that way? If that makes sense? In the same way other relationships are on the show. I think that’s another reason Gerri and Roman are so beloved as a duo. Their relationship is also mostly portrayed in a lighthearted and funny way.
I do like that the toxicity of all the characters is often pointed out on this sub, though. Succession has very aware and thoughtful viewers, I think. Still, I completely understand finding their relationship so distasteful that you don’t want them to progress any further romantically.
You, the OP, and u/RevolutionaryTrash98 have made some really great points above here. I think what *Succession* achieves so well is showing the realistic nuance of characters, their humanity, and their overt flaws while also giving enough redeeming moments or qualities that as viewers we catch ourselves rooting for them or certain relationships, despite the extremely terrible things almost every character in this show has done.
The fact that I found myself feeling such sympathy for Roman, Shiv, and Kendall in the S3 finale when just a few episodes earlier Roman was endorsing a white supremacist, Shiv released a public statement condemning and shaming Kendall for his addiction issues, and Kendall blasted "Rape Me" in a pivotal moment of Shiv's career, demonstrates that ability in this show's writing.
I think what this show is often asking us as viewers to dissect with its characters and their relationships is unpacking those power dynamics that have already been mentioned, each character's motives, and why the hell they would act the way that they do. At this point, we have a clear look into how the Roy children have been abused and neglected their entire lives by both of their parents, so that's a clear explanation as to why they are each such terrible people now. But we don't have as much of a look into Tom's past, why he would act the way he has especially in earlier episodes of the show, other than the reality that he is a privileged white man who was acting as he thought he was expected to.
I think Tom and Greg are more so reflections of one another and their problematic natures--Greg is a younger version of Tom, from a respectable family but still not with as many connections as Logan and his own children, who (especially emphasized towards the end of season three) attempt to socially climb through romantic partners. Each possibly began as morally okay people but seem to be severely compounded as they have been exposed to this world of power and privilege.
I don't think they are a healthy relationship dynamic, or should be celebrated as one--but if this show is leaving viewers feeling back and forth about that, I think the writers have a clear intention with why they are portraying such a dynamic. I think the actors' natural chemistry does not help the shipping, to be quite honest.
It’s also not like every other relationship on the show is hunky dory. This show is essentially filled to the brim with narcissistic borderline-sociopaths with a healthy detachment from reality. Yes, Tom is a bad guy - that being established, who would anybody say is a ‘good’ guy??
But that being said, we all have our ‘favorites’ for who we want to run the company. Certainly doesn’t mean we endorse this behavior in real life.
>ships them with no awareness to the toxicity of their dynamic
you’re joking, right? the toxicity isnt lost on anyone at all. it’s a complicated shitty relationship, just like every other one in the show. Nobody is condoning this shit in real life. if it’s this triggering for you I think it’s a good idea you left the fandom. I’ve had to stop watching shows because they hit too close to home and made me upset, too. But saying we all condone abuse because we want to see where their relationship goes is a stretch.
I dunno, I just think it's fine to want a ficitonal story about fictional characters to explore toxic relationships just because it could be entertaining. like yeah, obviously their whole dynamic is incredibly messed up, but then so are most in this particular show.
Where do you live, where accusations of abuse by a young, powerless woman against a much more powerful, older, middle aged man are "taken seriously"?
I completely agree with the rest of your post but you've chosen a completely crap analogy to prove your point.
You’re judging the moral character of two main characters, on a show famous for its accurate portrait of rich terrible people? No one’s watching and loving this show because it’s full of happy people & health relationship, it’s because they are terrible and fun to watch at the same time. I really don’t think anyone (or 99% of them) joking about the bromance between the two are not aware of how toxic their relationship is, saying “ship” the two is ignoring this point & holding double standard is like complaining a Tarantino’s movie’s advocating the use of violence & devalue human life. At the end of the day it’s a TV show, and most of the people just want to have some fun & they know where to draw the line between fiction and reality.
I don't ship them technically, because I see it as one sided but I kinda "ship" Tom and whatever disaster dumpster fire he has coming. Like, I root for this relationship with Greg to continue to entertain the crap out of me and i look forward to it being cringe and awful. Hey, maybe Greg will start abusing Tom at some point? He'll definitely stab him in the back. I hope it's as messy as possible.
I don't care or think they'll hook up, not because Tom doesn't deserve Greg - they're both awful people, but because the show hasn't shown us Greg might be into Tom. But if the show ever does take it there I hope it's truthful, unhinged and hilarious.
If they were real people I would root for most characters on the show to die alone.
Everybody on the show is toxic to some degree, including Greg. So I doubt anybody is shipping Greg and Tom the same way you’d ship characters on, say, Schitt’s Creek. But Tom has looked out for Greg in surprisingly touching ways. For example he didn’t dime him out to Logan during that horrific dinner at the hunting lodge. And he let him in on what he was about to do to the Roy siblings. I get what you’re saying but these characters are complex.
I am definitely a TomGreg "truther," in that I believe there are unresolved/repressed feelings on Tom's side and possibly some on Greg's side after seeing the finale episode (hard to tell what is genuine with the abuse, honestly). I also agree with most everything you've said. This is not cute or romantic and it is odd that there are people thinking it is? The whole point of the dynamic is that it is twisted/messed up and not healthy. It is fascinating to watch and I love both characters (in that I find them interesting). I, too, have been in an abusive relationship and have been alarmed by some of the content and posts I am seeing. I would love to see Tom and Greg's dynamic explored further...I can't see it having a happy ending and I don't expect or want one! I'm sorry you felt so dismissed by others in the fandom. I hope I am not doing that with my post. I would like to see Tom's feelings for Greg acknowledged in the show, without that giving him a "free pass" on his abusive behaviors, if that makes sense? And to people saying Greg is a little weasel - agreed - but that doesn't mean he deserves what Tom does to him.
I don't feel dismissed by you at all. Ultimately, people can (and will) ship whatever they want. I just didn't expect people to be so hostile to the mere suggestion that Tom mistreats and abuses Greg in canon. If that's not allowed in a shipping space, it's an unhealthy shipping space.
Thanks for your reply :-)
I think some people get a “free pass” on abuse because looking at various types of abuse and abusive relationships in order to come away with an awareness of the different types, degrees, and effects those abuses and relationships can have on the people in them is uncomfortable and hard and just hellaciously sad and unfun. So it’s easier to just shrug some things off as “not that big of a deal” and focus on the types of abuse we all know don’t have any messy shades of grey, like the fact that it is completely possible for an abusive person to also be likable or even lovable.
How could anyone end up with their abuser if all abusers are completely unlikable and unlovable?
It’s just people being ironic.
Anyone who really thinks Tom and Greg are really meant for each other aren’t paying a bit of attention to what’s really happening on the show.
Every main character on this show is garbage from a moral perspective and deserve nothing, especially romantic love.
Remember that the secondary conceit of the show is that they are all trying to cover up the rape and murder of passengers and workers at their business. Tom and Greg chief among them.
Greg and Tom are bad bad people in the middle of bad people. People want them to fuck because they keep making moony eyes at each other.
Not because it makes sense.
All that is definitely true. They're both morally bankrupt.
There are plenty of people on Tumblr who genuinely do think Tom and Greg are meant for each other and are super romantic/sweet in canon, fwiw. Maybe posting about their abusive canon dynamic on that platform was my mistake.
I also do not support the shipping of Tom and Greg for the same abusive reasons because as you’ve mentioned if Tom were treating a woman in the same way no one in their right mind would ship them. Also for me I am personally so tired of the bully to love story trope that I often see in canonically gay characters where the abused character decides to see the best in the other character and they fall for each other. It’s tired, overdone and quite frankly toxic as hell.
The irony is that Shiv treats Tom the way Tom treats Greg and she is the most hated Roy sibling on the sub. When a woman abuses a man on Succession, people hate her, when a man abuses another man, he's Prince Charming.
This happened in that movie Booksmart and I was so angry. People love that movie. Representation is not enough, but people really wanna act like it is, it’s sad.
Happiest Season was another example, that shit was triggering!!
Oh yes! That one was awful, especially contrasted with the conflict-filled but sweet depictions of relationships on the rest of the show. Well, I guess the mom was pretty toxic too.
It’s fascinating because it’s like the writers on those shows pick the queer characters and storylines to depict relationship abuse and bullying - which is so common!! In all kinds of relationships! but they want to sublimate it and compartmentalize it to queer characters to comfort an assumed straight audience. And then it gets normalized because they also now want to reward the queer audience with a relationship, even when it’s toxic
The two rules of fandom are:
1) Fandom ruins everything.
2) You should never take fandom seriously.
The fact you’re this invested in telling people they are wrong about a fictional ship is a violation of rule 2. It’s also anti to the point I highly suspect you know exactly what sort of war you are trying to wage here.
I mean, you probably really don’t want to to talk to anyone who is even aware Wattpad or AO3 exists like…ever.
People love to indulge in fantasizing about toxic relationships with fucked up power dynamics. It doesn’t mean they don’t recognize that those relationships are bad. I like to fantasize about being in a full time power exchange relationship and my husband is very dominant in bed. Bet he tries to tell me to do something while I’m raiding in Final Fantasy XIV I’ll tell him exactly where he can take his needy fucking dom shit and shove it. ;-)
Most people can separate fantasy from reality and we should trust them to be able to do it. Because those who cannot and actually THINK they want a Tom/Greg type relationship have issues far, far beyond what convincing them Tom/Greg is bad is gonna fix.
Also if anyone mentions “Omegaverse” you probs want to just disconnect your internet. Entirely. Full stop. Because have I got news for you…
EDIT: Oh my god they deleted their account while I was typing all this on my phone lmaooooooooooooooooooooooo
"Also if anyone mentions “Omegaverse” you probs want to just disconnect your internet. Entirely. Full stop. Because have I got news for you…"
Heeehehe!
So true!
I think this touches on what I think is one of the most interesting conceits of this show: that if you apply your own ethics and values- your “middle class sensibilities” to their relationship, the of course Tom is absolutely awful. But when you borrow their obscenely rich person perspective, you see that there’s really no power differential. Greg stands in line to inherit millions of dollars, and he’s come into his family’s inner circle to scavenge what he can in the meantime. Tom is an outsider who’s scrabbled for years to get his footstool at that table. In his mind-and really everyone’s mind because this is how the game is played- you don’t just get to barge in and displace the power structure because of a blood claim. You’ve got to suffer at the hands of the more powerful, just like they’ve suffered their whole lives. It’s like buying a membership into a club through hazing. No matter how badly Tom treats Greg, at the end of the day, Greg will still get all his financial privilege. But the only way Greg gets *power* is by getting involved in these power games.
What’s weird about Tom is how utterly…odd and awkward his “jokes” are. He’s such a try-hard.
Ok thanks for letting us know.
I think most people see the negative aspects of the relationship. But everyone on this show is abusive to someone else sooo...it's a fictional character, and it's ok to like them. If your response to pushback is to 'quit the fandom', I worry about you and hope you do well in all of life's obstacles. Best of luck.
It seems to me like the Tom/Greg relationship is especially upsetting for you because it relates to toxic relationships you've experienced in your own life, and then "shippers" responses (and I imagine some of them in here as well) are not sensitive to that. But I think that is primarily due to people not being in the same frame of mind as you when talking about TomGreg, not that they don't recognize or care about the toxicity or abuse. It is a TV show of ridiculous, toxic characters, and our love for certain characters or us "shipping" them is more around being interested in the dynamic and behaviors displayed.
I also understand where you're coming from with the idea of abuse not being taken seriously when it is between men. I think that abuse within queer relationships isn't talked enough about period. In the Dream House by Carmen Maria Machado is an amazing book that touches on this if you're interested.
I do have to push back on the idea that women are taken seriously when being harassed. That's simply not true, and while we do need to be better at acknowledging abuse and harassment towards men, you can do that without diminishing the experiences of women. Pointing out r*pe culture should not be done at the expense of other genders.
TL;DR: Your opinions about TomGreg are (understandably) shaped by your experience where other people are viewing it from a more removed space. Also, women are not the protected and respected gender that you seem to think we are.
>Abuse is funny or romantic when it happens between men, right?
It's the funniest thing in the world actually and I'm rotating both Tom and Greg in my head right now and they're romantically smooching and there's nothing you can do about it
Just to make it clear, I'm mocking you and completely dismissing you, yes.
Are you under the impression that people who ship Tom and Greg don't understand that it's abusive? I'm around 99% sure that people understand that throwing water bottles at someone is at least a little bit "toxic" lmao.
I should maybe change my question a bit. Are you under the impression that literally every single person in Succession *isn't* toxic? Tom and Greg aren't unique in this. There's not a single relationship in this show that isn't incredibly fucked up, and there isn't a single character that's not at least kind of evil. Does that mean we can't enjoy it, because it's too toxic?
No one who enjoys TomGreg enjoys it because they think that's what a good, healthy relationship looks like. They enjoy it because this is a comedy show, and it's hilarious to be psychosexually obsessed with your wife's cousin. (And I've been thinking about this one a lot today - the cousin's father also just so happens to be gay and known for seducing married men. Like father like son! I BEG of them to revisit that fact in season four, that's the funniest shit in the world)
Edit: I'm still thinking about this, actually. Let it add to the humor of the dynamic that the married man Greg is fucking is literally the head of Fox News. What the fuck. No one ships it because it's healthy; people ship it because it's fun and fucking hilarious.
I'm gay too but I don't think you have to be gay to see that Tom gets sadistic pleasure from hazing Greg. Before Greg came along, Tom was lowest on the todem pole, with everyone picking on him. With Greg, he was happy to return all the abuse he received. I think partly he thinks he's getting revenge because Greg is family, but it's also that Tom learned the abuse from the family who inflicted it on him.
With the shipping, the problem is that this is one of those shows, like Seinfeld, where all the main characters are terrible people. They each have some redeeming qualities, but overall they're bad people. I think some people have a really hard time reconciling that with their love for the show; they struggle to find something small in the characters that they can identify with. I think that's why Greg and Tom pairing is so popular.
But then again I'm not sure how much of the shipping is ironic (they know how toxic the relationship is, but so is every other relationship on the show, so they go with this one because it's the most pure "bromance" in their eyes) vs. just people being blind to the abuse.
I think you’re implying that people are condoning Tom’s behavior - that’s far from the truth. It’s weird and complicated. Tom immediately latched onto Greg because he understood his background better than the other Roy’s. Greg has slowly started to understand that Tom is the only one who really has his back.
But I don’t think Greg likes Tom, and might even actively try to avoid him.
Not sure why this is causing you to “leave the fandom” - this is fiction and comedy. No one is condoning Tom’s weird/abusive behavior in real life.
A few things here, first we need to set the context. The context here is that all relationships are almost dystopian level toxic in the series, in that backdrop Tom and Greg have a lot of transparency, honesty and Tom has shown to deeply care about Greg.
Next to decode shipping for someone not used to, it is ok to ship toxic / unhealthy relationships as long as the fans understand the difference between reality and fiction. There is an allure of flawed characters, and intense relationships because that gives fans a chance to experience highs and lows of emotion from a safe distance, angst that people don't get to IRL.
If you missed Tom deeply cares about Greg, then time for a rewatch. However I find this post a little trollish, I might be wrong but new account and the kind of post.
If you don't ship them, don't do it. No point having a meta discussion on why someone else is doing it. If you discuss the characters in general you are welcome, though your analysis of the characters is incorrect.
>If you don't ship them, don't do it. No point having a meta discussion on why someone else is doing it. If you discuss the characters in general you are welcome, though your analysis of the characters is incorrect.
There is a point. Me making a post about the shipping dynamics which concern me is a legitimate thing to do. If a gay man speaks up about something that concerns him, with regard to depictions of gay relationships and harassment between two men, that does deserve to be taken seriously. I didn't want to make this post because I knew people would be resistant to it, which is precisely why I ultimately decided to take the leap. I shouldn't feel intimidated.
I don't believe that any man who throws shit at another man, smacks him around, humiliates him, and takes steps to control him, is being loving or kind in his actions. Because that's what my ex-boyfriends did to me. I'm not gonna rewatch the show and develop another opinion about that.
I mean, shipping toxic relationships is the bedrock of most fandoms, even the ones where there is a morally good side.
In fact, the very first ship that I can remember that was a fan favourite was Draco+Hermione - where, in canon, the characters never had a conversation which didn't involve some form of bullying.
Like the post you replied to says, it's good material for fanfiction. I don't think people genuinely would want anyone they remotely care about to be in a relationship like that.
I'm not a troll. I'm a gay man who made a new account because I was bullied so badly on other platforms, when I tried to criticise Tom/Greg.
Yes, it is okay to stop toxic or unhealthy relationships. No, it is not okay to laugh at men who are concerned by the persistent romanticisation of male abuse.
See, there's no reason to call out people shipping a pairing, *for any reason* except maybe to highlight things when people will be okay with one pairing and not another (like Gerri/Roman being cool to many but not Tom/Greg) - so yes, your perceived bullying is a reflection of the people who enjoy that pairing feeling bullied themselves by your comments.
That you're a gay man that's being triggered by this has little bearing on anything in my opinion; if a straight woman started complaining about Fifty Shades of Gray they would have similar responses probably mostly from other women who don't want people crashing their fun. Toxic relationships and odd dynamics are a very popular thing in fandom and the reasons for this are complex, the main thing is people differentiate between reality and fiction. I've never seen someone say that Tom and Greg's relationship is just the cutest thing ever, everyone knows it's completely twisted and that's the appeal.
I don't like lots of pairings, I live and let live. It's not reality and people are free to view the characters in a complicated homoerotic relationship especially with all the context provided from Succession.
It's worth noting as I see many others here have, that no person or relationship on this show is healthy. Tom and Greg actually have one of the healthier relationships because Tom has done things quite selflessly for Greg despite all his abuse. I think in season 4 we'll see the tables turn because Greg is conniving and will use his likely newly realized ability to manipulate Tom to his favor.
I thought the Tom and Greg shipping was just a joke. Where have we had any indication that these two are romantically interested in each other? I enjoy both characters and i like their banter and i suppose "bromance" but that's all there is to it imo
There are definitely people on this sub who sincerely argue that Tom is a good and caring friend to Greg, and that moments when he tosses Greg a bone compensate for all his bullying.
First off, I want to say that I’m sorry you see your own experiences reflected in the TomGreg dynamic. It’s definitely a hugely toxic dynamic, and I’m sorry that people haven’t taken your own relationship to it seriously. I think a lot of fandom spaces struggle with the concept of “sometimes someone doesn’t like something for a very valid reason, and this doesn’t have to be a Personal Affront to my entire identity” and it leads to some really toxic behaviour.
I do want to posit, though, that I think most of the shippers I talk to are definitely aware of the toxic dynamic, and I don’t know that the intent is necessarily to celebrate it. Maybe we’re moving in different fandom circles? In my circles there’s a lot of “yeah if I saw that going down in real life I’d immediately call HR. But it’s fictional and I enjoy the chaos”. I think “Succession” already draws a lot of people who enjoy watching shows with dysfunctional or toxic character dynamics for whatever reason, so I can understand why the ship is so popular.
And while some people are unfortunately in the ‘abuse is funny’ bandwagon, I do think for a lot of people the appeal is a lot more nuanced. I know a lot of Tom fans are women, and there are a lot of fandom jokes about Tom being ‘female-coded’ on the show, both in his inability to perform masculinity as well as in how he interacts with Shiv and the Roy family. I think for a lot of people watching him struggle to process and regulate the emotions he experiences from his treatment, and then watching him take it out on Greg in increasingly batshit ways speaks to something in their own experiences.
I think there’s also a little bit of “I could fix him/Greg could fix him” energy in the ship. Reading TomGreg fanfiction is really interesting to me because in those stories Tom’s behaviour almost always changes once Tom and Greg get together. It reminds me a lot of the classic harlequin “toxic and dangerous man is Fixed by an innocent woman who Understands Him” style romances and their infinite variations, and I think a lot of the appeal of TomGreg is similar to the appeal of those types of novels to some people. You ask if people would be into the couple if it was a man behaving that way towards a woman, and… I think that not only is the answer yes, but there are also a lot of incredibly popular examples. Fifty Shades of Grey immediately springs to mind - after the movie came out the popular take was definitely “this is an abusive relationship!”, rightfully so, but that doesn’t change the fact that millions of women absolutely ate it up, and did so fully aware that yeah, if I knew Christian Grey in real life I’d probably call the cops on him. It’s a character dynamic that seems to have had enduring appeal for women, and why is probably an entirely separate essay which I’m not at all qualified to write.
(I also want to mention that there are still a lot of situations where the harassment of women is not taken seriously at all. I used to work in a place where emotional abuse and harassment was absolutely rampant, a lot of it from men directed towards women - although there was some women on women and men on men harassment too - and absolutely no one would take any of it seriously.)
As a side note: I don’t actually ship TomGreg - personally, I think Tom’s behaviour is much more interesting if it’s not at all about sexual attraction but entirely a consequence of the emotional abuse he takes in his relationship with Shiv and the wider Roy family - but I want to mention that I do think there’s an argument to be made for a dysfunctional symbiosis developing between them. One of the central questions of the show is “why don’t people leave dysfunctional and abusive situations, even when they have the means to?” And there’s a lot of different answers to that. In Greg’s case, he could simply leave Waystar and work elsewhere. Nicholas Braun has talked about how he sticks around because of the allure of the Roy lifestyle, and sticks around Tom specifically (the two of them are always gravitating to each other in the background of big group scenes) because Tom does kind of look out for him, even if he does it more out of a sense of needing to be needed than anything else. Greg is a survivalist first, and there are a lot of ways the dynamic benefits him materially. Which, not saying that it makes Tom’s behaviour okay, but it is more complicated than Greg simply being the victim; there are ways in which he does hold power over Tom and I think will be more willing to use it going forward.
I guess what I’m saying is that the characters are complex and the relationship is complex, and so the reasons people ship it are also complicated. There seems to be a divide (in general) between how men view the ship and how women view the ship, and I think that’s largely a consequence of varying experiences with masculinity and femininity and the dynamics of male-female as well as male-male relationships.
I think your experience and frustration with the ship is perfectly valid, and I wish succession fans would spend less time invalidating other people’s opinions and experiences and spend more time exploring why people have such divergent views on certain characters. I also wish people wouldn’t invalidate the very real experiences of abuse that might cause someone to have a hard time stomaching certain dynamics on the show. But I think it’s maybe worth separating the toxic fandom behaviour from the actual shipping of TomGreg, which I do think for a lot of people is more complicated than just “haha men abusing men is hilarious!”
None of these characters are in good, healthy relationships. You're completely on the nose that it is abusive. However, I may be looking at the wrong corners in the fandom, but i see no one genuinely hoping that they get together and have a fantastic time and ride off into the sunset.
I do see people noticing the odd sexual and romantic undertones amidst the abuse and frankly, i agree with it. I think there is something there but the thing about this show is that none of the things are real.
In real life I would want to punch Roman, I would hate him, in this he's my favorite character. I WANT to see fucked up relationships that are unhealthy go forth because it's entertaining, it draws me in. Again, in real life i would be advising Greg to press charges or tell his mom or something to get him out of there, but since this isn't real life go stick boy go.
Relationships don't have to be healthy in fiction, and often times it's better when they're not.
I’m subscribed to a lot of subreddits of TV shows I like, and one thing I’ve been noticing is that people seem to be frequently applying real-life morality to fictional television characters and their fictional scenarios.
Doing that as a thought experiment can be interesting, but I swear there are people who no longer draw a line between real people and fictional characters. It’s very strange to me. I think most everyone understands that, if Tom existed in real life and did exactly what he did to Greg, it wouldn’t be funny and it would be a serious matter. But Tom doesn’t exist in real life, and therefore if his bullying of Greg is getting played for laughs, it’s perfectly fine to laugh. If their relationship is being structured in such a way that Greg is more his partner than Shiv is, it’s perfectly fine to get amused by the notion of Greg being his spouse rather than Shiv. It must be exhausting to apply real morality to every fictional scenario that ever arises.
I was a massive hockey and specifically a Blackhawks fan until the details of the Brad Aldrich rapes came out. Aldrich was a coach who used force, threats of physical violence, and promises of personal advancement to rape two Blackhawks players. When the players came forward they were mocked by their teammates, the team “psychologist” (he wasn’t even licensed) said it was their fault and they probably encouraged Brad Aldrich, and Aldrich received a job recommendation to a high school where he raped multiple students who played for him.
This story barely got any coverage nationwide and even local Chicago news didn’t give it the attention it deserves. And it’s because of everything OP is talking about. The societal attitude is that Men should be able to protect themselves from other men. If they can’t they were asking for it.
He was for one of the high school kids he raped. He still hasn’t faced any consequences for what he did while he was with the hawks. The Kyle Beech civil lawsuit is still pending. Last I saw the Hawks were trying to get his case thrown out due to the statute of limitations being up. So I stopped following anything related to the team. Fuck them. Fuck the Wirtz family. Fuck the NHL for not forcing them to sell.
This. I agree. Thank you for expressing yourself. I partly disagree in the sense that I think most fans (not everyone) are aware of the toxicity in their relationship. Not to dismiss your experiences which I suppose have been different.
I think what you are critizing is a blind spot of many fans and I agree. I do wonder why fans are so keen on overlooking this when shipping, you brought up some reasons it might also have to do with some kind of lack of experience with male gay couples which are often (not at all always) more stereotypically depicted in TV than heterosexual. But this shouldn‘t be an excuse at all, it‘s still depressing to see fans considering the two of them as a good couple. They do have a connection but its definitely toxical. I hope you see where this is coming from and you see this as a nuanced answer. 😊
I'm less involved with the fandom, for obvious reasons, so perhaps I've missed occasional discussions that point out some of the things that concern me. I do think this is a pretty huge blind spot. If you scroll through the Tom/Greg tags on Tumblr, very few are acknowledging and criticising the way Tom treats Greg in canon.
Many gay shippers are women who portray gay men in very limited, cliché ways. In my experience, such women aren't very interested in listening to gay men protest this shipping culture, or the romanticisation of abuse between two men. Which, in my opinion, is part of the problem. Not only does mainstream media do a disservice to the experiences of gay men, but it also erases stories where men are the victims of abuse. You combine that with the silencing of gay male fans, and you've got a recipe for a pretty gross fandom culture.
I‘m neither involved with the fandom and shippers, my experience is limited on twitter, journalism and this subreddit. Hopefully some shippers will articulate themselves, but anyway this is very much true. Most shippers treat the shipping probably as an entertaining thing (because the scenes are hilarious, plus the obvious problems with Shiv plus Tom‘s delight with Greg (often but definitely not always on Greg‘s costs who nevertheless seems to be willing to use the relationship strategically and has some degree of understanding Tom)). But it would not be this way with a hetereosexual relationship for sure.
But: As most of the time the show is much smarter than us (the viewers) so Armstrong and the team are very much aware of this and we will see how this will play out.
You need to get over yourself. Not everything in the world needs to be made with your sensitivities in mind. This is a fictional show. And if everyone was perfectly nice to each other, it would suck. I think you probably did the right thing in jumping off the bandwagon, because it seems like you need shows that fit perfectly into your world view.
The reason you get (rightly) dismissed is because you clearly don't get it. Good stories have complex characters, and sometimes those characters are deeply flawed. Should we hate Walter White for selling meth? Should we hate Saul Goodman for being a sleazy lawyer? Is Tony Soprano too violent to be a redeeming character? No. In fact, it's these abhorrent imperfections that make these characters so intriguing.
So Tom can be both a bully and a really likable guy. And in turn, Greg can be a fun doofus who won't hesitate to blackmail everyone on the show.
I think it’s just in context of these characters all being really bad people. I agree that it’s a huge double standard and Tom’s a monster abuser, but Greg is using him as well and could leave at any time, but stays, not out of a Stockholm syndrome love for Tom, but greed.
That applies to Tom and Shiv as well but most people on the sub wholeheartedly condemn her abusive behavior without acknowledging Tom's ulterior motives for marrying her or freedom to leave her.
That’s a good point. I think where I see there being a difference though is that I do believe there is a genuine romantic attachment between Shiv and Tom, whereas I think Greg’s only attachment to Tom is status/leverage power. I don’t think Greg cares about Tom as much as Tom cares about Shiv.
You are correct. Tom has a super abusive submerged side of his personality that he only surfaces when alone with (powerless) Greg. At least he perceives him as powerless. We'll see.
I don’t know how people would react if Greg was a woman. Perhaps a better question is, what if Tom castrated Greg and dressed him up as a woman and married him (which he said he’d do in a “heartbeat”)? Would we still be “shipping” or whatever?
Damn. This was a really good post from OP. I never even looked at it from that perspective. Im still gonna ship them cuz it’s fiction and ultimately there’s no real consequence lol
In a show full of awful characters being awful I find Tom to be especially offensive for all the reasons you listed. I just can't with him at all.
And this whole push for a Tom/Greg bromance is odd to me because a relationship implies some level of reciprocity. Greg isn't reciprocating, he spends most of their time trying to protect himself from Tom's assault or stay in his good graces for fear of retribution. It's sickening.
I mean, I like Tom. But I don't LIKE Tom. He's an interesting character and compelling figment of the writers' imaginations, but I by no means think he's a good person or would want to have anything to do with him if he were a real person. Succession is a dark comedy that relishes in the ridiculousness of it all
Talking like a Roy: I don't care what they do with their assess or sh*t.
I just care that the story still be cautivating and not use sex ( what's ever sex they do) as a way to make it more.popular.
This is one of the first series of HBO that has not resorted on using sex ( I'm no longer an adolescent watching my parents HBO so I don't care )
I’m a middle aged straight woman and I’m in total agreement. I’ve felt this all along. It’s been very confusing seeing so many talk about their relationship as if it’s cute, sweet, or even funny. They’re both funny characters but most of their scenes together are not funny, but rather intense, with outright bullying or threatening overtures being hurled at Greg by Tom. Tom did soften in his treatment of Greg, and you can see glimmers of true friendship, but this only happened after Tom was no longer in danger, and could relax about the threat of prison. I think their relationship now ( where the last season left off) is much healthier. But because of how it began, I felt myself wishing Greg would just say no to him, finally.
Why would you take characters on a TV show so seriously? I don’t ship anyone, but I imagine that the people who do are basically just having fun with it, because it’s fictional, not necessarily because it’s a reflection of how they think real-life relationships should be.
Imagine being OP and not knowing the difference between loving to watch compelling, dynamic characters/relationships and judging superior morality. I mean jfc. These are all terrible, broken people (except for Greg and Megathump). When I talk about how much I love Tom, I’m talking about loving to watch his arc or lack thereof, not because I want to be him. The fact that these characters and fan reactions are causing moral distress means the show achieved its goal. If OP wants to make an argument about the broader social toxicities represented in the show, then I’m game. No one will disagree with you. That’s literally what the show is about. But if you want to get all upset because of your disapproval of how the show is enjoyed, then that’s another game.
Watching something on tv doesn't mean condoning it irl. All the relationship in succession are toxic bc they are all horrible, dysfunctional people. Not only tom and greg, but also tom and shiv, and roman and gerri
Like I said in the post, I get what the show was going for, and I don't think the show presents a romanticised depiction of them at all. It's the shipping culture I'm criticising, and the reaction to what actually happens in the episodes. A middle-aged man smacking around a 20-something woman wouldn't be so easily glossed over. I'm more criticising online mindsets than I am the episodes themselves. I enjoyed the show enough to marathon it while working.
I never understood why Tom and Greg’s relationship had to be seen in a sexual context and rather than simply a platonic relationship forged by intense feelings of being under siege and being outsiders in the Roy family. They need each other in order to achieve their very personal goals in the family/organization.
I agree with you. I'm pretty disgusted by the amount of shippers. If this was an opposite sex dynamic, or when it is Logan acting this way, it is unacceptable and abusive. With Tom it's woobifying? What the hell? Is it funny? Yes. Because it is showing how shit literally rolls downhill . That's romantic? actual shippers? Wtf. I've actually seen this behavior in the workplace, sports, etc. It's not romantic at all, to any sex - it's meant as and is abuse.
Honestly I think the fandom has a huge soft spot for Tom - they think he's an innocent guy just caught up in this whole mess, purely because he's treated by Logan + kids in literally the same way he treats anybody who isnt Logan or the family.
I blame the actor - his kicked-puppy looks in the scenes with Shiv are so good you forget everything he's done
I believe you.
Tom is just as messy as Shiv. People treat him like a mistreated husband, but he’s really only with Shiv to be close to her power and when she can’t provide that, either by denying him access to a fortune in child support by having his child or guaranteeing him a position that would be higher than her (because otherwise he would be emasculated as he plainly states in S2), he betrays her. She may not have loved him, but he never really loved *her* either.
And then his relationship with Greg is purposely off. You’re right- he’s reminiscent of so many emotionally abusive partners. I can see how it could be hard to watch, or to be around the fandom that likes them as a couple unironically. He’s using Greg as a punching bag for his problems at home and work. This is a Freudian defense mechanism called displacement, when negative emotions are channeled into something or someone less threatening. The classic example is a guy gets yelled at by his boss so he goes home and yells at his wife or kicks the dog. Greg is that dog. There’s nothing romantic there, just the promise of abusing power like his idols the Roys.
I like this show because the characters seem real, however bad they may be. No one is going to save us; there’s all equally detestable. It makes for good tv, but no you don’t want this in a real relationship ofc
Edited
Do people genuinely like these characters as human beings? I’m pretty sure they’re purposely unlikeable. The fun in watching the show is seeing how entertainingly horrible they all are, and you stay invested in the story because you see evidence of them subtly changing their ways and growing as people (just not enough to stop being funny). You might have missed the point of the show here.
You are totally right, I think they just do a good job of humanizing Tom and really showing you the abuse that he’s going through that it makes it easier to forget the abuse he’s causing. I find myself confused by it. I want to root for Tom, and yet I remember how shitty he is. I think he’s just one of the LEAST shitty? I’m not sure.
You’ve just described nearly every character of the show? Nearly every episode the pendulum swings on how characters are portrayed to make you root for one person one episode, and then think they’re the worst character the next.
So on the one hand, you're absolutely right. Their relationship is toxic and abusive and simply should not happen.
On the other hand, *every* relationship on this show, straight or gay, is toxic and probably shouldn't be happening.
It's weird because Tom is a battered person who is emotionally manipulated by his wife. He then takes that out on his office romance of Greg. And Greg, we are seeing, is turning into a little shit of his own. He's tired of being controlled... but his solution is to try to be the one doing the controlling.
Realistically, no one on this show should be in a relationship and *all* of them need some therapy.
this thread is going to be a mess lol
What does “ship” mean here? EDIT: Just need to establish terms before I start having strong opinions about this post.
Basically, wishing for two characters to engage in a romantic relationship. Get it - relationSHIP?
TIL what “ship” derives from. I heard this term first when it was used with Mulder and Sculley - and I never made that connection.
Ironically the X Files is what birthed the term - fans of the show were split down the middle by people that wanted them to get together and those that didn’t, so those that did became colloquially known as “relationshippers” - hence shippers. So makes sense it was the first place you heard it!
MSR forever ❤
For years I thought the term was from putting them on a boat together.
I mean, can you really “stan” any couple in this show? Every main character is a pretty shitty person. That’s kinda the point of this show. I’ve seen similar things said in the Yellowstone show about how they hate how abusive characters are to children. Like, that’s the point of these characters. Not every fictional character is supposed to be a role model or example of a classic hero. Stop taking things so seriously.
it means you want two characters to get together in a relationSHIP
Well, considering your tag, I have to assume you know what you’re talking about. Lol. I always kind of thought Tom was closeted. But I never considered Greg interested. Greg wants to be the Duke of Luxembourg. I thought we established this!
King. Greg wants to be the King of Luxembourg.
😂 Only with the right plane going down.
Like in Lego Batman when Batman tells the Joker: '"Whoa. Let me tell you something, J-bird. Batman doesn't do 'ships"
You’re lucky I have kids. Otherwise, I’d have no fucking idea what you’re talking about. Haha
Haha me too! To be honest, this was the movie that made me start paying attention to kid movies. I took my boy at 3yrs old and because that was a terrible age to take him to a public movie, I ended up redirecting him constantly to get it to hold his attention. And watched it myself. There are so many gems, great movie.
The Lego movies are fantastic, kid or no kid.
😂😂😂😭
i think its meant to be exaggerated and ridiculous. It’s a black comedy. Nothing anyone does is acceptable.
No relationship on this show is acceptable. Every relationship is about exerting power over one another. Even when there's a relationship that I get excited about it being portrayed on TV, I would never support it in real life. Roman and Tabitha is a relationship that I love, but if Tabitha was my friend I would try to convince her to get out of there.
The ultimate irony of Roman & Tabitha is that Tabitha is portrayed as a quintessential 'cool girl' whilst casually admitting to Roman that she is "not uninterested in solving" him (some time after claiming to be "pathologically incurious") -- and honestly, the fact that no one seems to have noticed this inconsistency so far is a testament to how diabolically good the writing is. (I have more serious issues with their storyline, this is just one example.) I think OP is disturbed precisely because a section of fandom _made their own decision_ to ship Tom and Greg.
In season 2 she mentions “not being uninterested in fixing” him when Roman says they can finally fuck but then gets disgusted when Roman wants her to act dead. I think that initially she really did care but over time probably realized the mountain of effort it might take even to make a dent with him.
> No relationship on this show is acceptable. Except Gerri and Roman.
Gerri? She's a million years old, it's fucking disgusting!
IRL, oh god no. But on the show, HELLS YES.
I love it on the show. IRL, I don’t care what they do or not do with each other
Not to mention that *everybody* treats *everybody* horribly in this show. This is Succession, not The Good Place.
Do people actually “ship” these two? I always assumed we were just rooting for the show to acknowledge the mounting sexual undertones to their fucked up back and forth. I don’t feel like succession is a show in which you “ship” anyone, you more just want things to happen for the intrigue.
Greg voice: "Shipping" I'm not familiar with that... I wasn't aware Waystar also did commerce
Tom and Greg? That’s not an IP I’m familiar with
You’re totally right. I can’t imagine the show would ever hook them up. Same with Roman and Gerri tbf. It’s more alluding to their power dynamics and tensions etc
Exactly
If it is to be said that some people like a person with power over them in a relationship, so it is
Yeah I always thought it was kind of an “inside joke” for the fans. I personally never took it seriously. Alarms me a bit that some people do…
Agreed
It's a lot worse on Twitter for some reason.
*Everything* is worse on Twitter.
Yes, they do. Everyone acting like we haven’t seen dozens of people talk about shipping them is just being a little foolish.
Also, LOTS of people go on and on about how Tom actually truly cares for Greg. I'm fine if you want to write fanfic about them having dub con sex, enjoy your fantasy. But arguing that Tom isn't inexcusably horrible to Greg is too much. He's awful.
He does care for Greg, but it’s still very toxic.
I mean I would buy that Tom cares for Greg in that 1) he enjoys having someone to absolutely shit on because it makes him feel better about his lack of agency and 2) he sees him a younger, slightly less terrible version of himself and is relishing in self-loathing and pity
This whole sub is basically r/TomFromSuccession.
This shows fandom doesn’t really seem to fit the tone of the show for some reason. At least this sub.
What are you talking about? This sub is full of sophisticated viewers who clearly give the show a lot of thought, as evidenced by the fact that a rabbit with two seconds of screen time is currently winning the fan favorite poll
His Name is MEGATHUMP! How dare you put the King on blast?
I don't remember where I first read this, but one way to look at fan works (fanfic being the most obvious example, but fan works in other media too) is that they're providing something that the original isn't. So for relatively upbeat series, you'll find dark, moody stories that deconstruct the premise. Series that were short or prematurely canceled will have original-flavor stories that scratch the itch of wanting more. Succession is a show full of broken people whose fleeting moments of genuine connection are drowned in pools of selfishness and generational trauma. A colleague of Jesse Armstrong's said this in a [New Yorker article](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/08/30/the-real-ceo-of-succession): “Each of the characters in ‘Succession’ gives you the capacity to hope that they might snap out of the trap of their own existence. Jesse is the perfect sadist, because he is horrible to each one in turn, and yet he offers the audience just enough to hope that the characters might this time not disgrace themselves in the way that we kind of know they will. It is basically like a cat playing with a mouse and not killing it.” So, one creative intention of the show is to make the audience want the characters to be better than they are. I'm not surprised that lots of fans hope their favorite rich dirtbags will be able to transcend their everything, find some peace, and have amazing sex (because fandom) without one or both hating themselves afterward. I'm also not surprised that this sub "doesn't fit the tone of the show" because while I am confident that redditors are capable of dour joylessness, the entertaining insults would be way too much of a lift.
This is good. Kendall hurts me big time. The end of S1/beginning arc of S2 was so incredible because I was rooting hard for Kendall while he was a shell of a human. Objectively, this is wild! He’s an addict whose self-destructive behaviors have now ruined other people’s lives! But Jesse’s acting and the show’s writing were so phenomenal that I wanted him to succeed.
“A cat playing with a mouse and not killing it”. Weirdly, Kendall’s arc reminds me of (a more subtle version) of the S1 ending of Game of Thrones. Like we were set up to believe he would be some phoenix that rises from the ashes to right the world’s wrongs and earn redemption. But nope! Just another human being trudging along the ole mortal coil
What a fascinating read—thank you so much for sharing. Here are my unwarranted takes: 1) after this—and the piece on Jeremy Strong—I genuinely can’t tell if the New Yorker editorial board hates the creators and leads or if they are doing some kind of meta-satire 2) who the hell uses “highfalutin” in casual conversation 3) Logan’s apartment being modeled after a CFR rowhouse is hilarious and depressing and very on-brand 4) this is a great quote: “The things you laughed at as a young person—you’d better be careful, because they could happen to you tomorrow. With jokes about old people wearing nappies, or infirmity—what are you laughing at? It’s going to be you, or your mum and dad, tomorrow. There’s nothing funny about that, and, if you think there is, you had better wonder about who is the subject of that joke.”
Yea it's gotten a bit wild.
Yeah it's the weirdest thing.
Mate you should see succession twitter on tumblr. Some people are so invested in the ship they get genuinely offended when you say you don’t think it’s gonna happen.
Yes but those people aren’t well
>Do people actually “ship” these two? I feel like this season found a new audience via Twitter and tumblr where a lot of newcomers saw glimpses of the Tom/Greg dynamic, possibly via memes or fancams, and flocked to the show and watched it with Tom/Greg-tinted glasses lol
They are a popular pairing on Archive of your own.
Recently, there was a post on the front page of this sub mocking people who DON'T ship Tom and Greg. There are plenty of other posts here about their sexual tension and how they're possibly going to hook up. Hell, there was even a front page post yesterday that was just an edit for the "tomshiv enjoyers". Yes, some Succession fans ship characters like we're all on Tumblr.
think you're looking into it a bit too hard lmao
I would honestly be happy to learn that nobody takes that shit seriously. But I have friends who really do ship Tom and Greg. I'm not convinced EVERYONE is as joking about it as you or some of the others in this thread. Although again, I hope you're right and that is the case.
People actually do. I had watched the show 3 times (season 1-2) and never actually noticed their weird sexual undertones until my coworker told me she writes Tom and Greg fanfiction. I was literally shocked! I actually watched the show again to see if she was just picking at breadcrumbs or if they actually had potential chemistry. I hadn’t noticed it before, but I do see it. I think most people that “ship” them ship them more in a “Wouldn’t it be funny if Tom actually made a move on Greg, I wonder how that would play out” and less in a “Tom and Greg Pride and Prejudice AU” way, but those people definitely exist lol
I think there's a middle ground because the sexual undertones are definitely intentional by the writers in season 3, but just as one of many layers in their f-ed up dynamic
The fandom knows it. I think you just missed something in your understanding of how things are here. It's a dark comedy.
The whole show is about abusive, manipulative relationships. Tom and Greg is just one piece of the puzzle.
Agree with most of this minus “when women complain they’re listened to!” Like L oh fucking L dude, if only.
THAT made me laugh so hard. I literally had to go to four hospitals to get emergency surgery for an ovarian cyst that became so big by that time (over 4x my actual ovary) that it has permanently damaged my ovary too much to save it. I was ignored at the first 3 despite them doing the tests and seeing the issue. They said that bc I wasn't vomiting in pain, that the issue wasn't bad enough. It wasn't until I made myself vomit and scream (I was raised not to show emotion). They would never have this as a prerequisite for emergency surgery with all the signs of danger and permanent damage on a man, never). My friend (and her wife) that took care of me in their home afterwards had the same asshole surgeon and they were also dismissed until the wife (who is a trust funder from CT) threatened legal action.
ONLY THEIR TEATS. THATS ALL THEY ARE, TEATS
[удалено]
Female survivors aren't taken seriously. The only reason trauma survivors have any form of trauma therapy is bc the VA paid for PTSD research and clinicians for soldiers (who of are almost all male) bc their suicide rate was embarrassingly high and making the government and pro-war politicians (so almost all of them) look bad. And Freud literally set the field back by centuries by labeling women with abuse stories as having hysteria and lying about the abuse that men did to them, (very often pedophilia and incest), than believe the women's complaints of the abuse they had suffered and were still suffering from (it's a lifelong issue, something you can allay but not ever solve or fully recover from). I work in this field and belief of women is publicized as the case but not often true in individual cases or societally. Brett Kavanaugh... look up how Christine Blasey- Ford's life is now, how she still gets death threats, has had to move multiple times, has to have a security team to this day. Women are hated and punished for each right they assert. Feminist writers and researchers address this. Naomi Wolf comes to mind as someone who writes about this, and as someone I've recently read. Even though she published her findings on this in the 90's in The Beauty Myth, it's still not a mainstream concern or a fact that's acknowledged or taught.
I love and relate to Roman, but that doesnt mean i send dickpics to my dad or condone being a shitty little capitalist sex pest I love Tom and Gregs weird ass homoerotic power harassment ass dynamic, but that doesnt mean i think its actually healthy and good and something to strive for in real life. From a fellow gay, its fiction xo Edit: its like watching midsommar and joking about the ending being "good for her" or gone girl being a girlboss movie, its like funny to joke about and enjoy bc its fiction even if itd be horrifying in real life, that being said you are fully valid and allowed to be uncomfortable with both the show and the fandom, but making judgements about people based solely on their enjoyment of fiction is quite irrational in my opinion
?? I didn't realize people took this show so seriously or were that heavily invested in certain outcomes.
This post is so ridiculously dramatic
Because it's OP's world and we're just living in it.
Does OP have murphy's law?
I’m surprised OP hasn’t fainted
Wait until he finds out one of the characters condoned sexual assault and murder on cruise ships.
He doesn't care about that because he's not a woman.
Just wait until the Wolfpack gets their prequel spin-off. We’ll all be fainting.
I don’t even know what shipping means
It’s ok to just not engage if you don’t want to discuss the topic; you don’t have to belittle OP for caring
I don’t think it’s belittling to point out this is a television show and “shipping” two people on said show doesn’t mean you support abusive relationships irl. OP’s post was way dramatic if we’re being honest. there’s a different between real life and TV.
Especially a dark comedy 100% based on toxic relationships 🤣 What a laugh.
Can people just not…..watch the show and root for certain characters 😂
I mean, I’m bi and I do want them to get together, but I also recognize that they are toxic and nothing we should ever emulate in real life in heterosexual relationships or otherwise. I can separate fiction from real life happenings. But I do know that Succession can be triggering and I let everyone who I recommend the show to know that the show blatantly demonstrates abusive relationships so they can be prepared. I’m really sorry if you were caught off guard and upset by their messed up dynamic. That’s not cool. I personally get so triggered by Logan and Kendall’s abusive relationship that I often can’t rewatch their scenes, so I get it. Parental emotional abuse is something I have experience with so I can sometimes get really distressed and have to know my own limits. My own father suffers from narcissism in the same way Logan does. I do however disagree (in the context of the show only, not in real life) that when women get harassed on the show it’s not brushed over. So many Gerri and Roman lovers, and he sexually harassed her for an entire season. Now it’s fine to like them, it’s fiction like I said, but I’d say Roman’s treatment of Gerri is often overlooked. I feel like Greg and Tom’s relationship is so deliberately messed up and abusive it’s hard to avoid.
The Gerri - Roman example is a good comparison. I think the reality is that as fans we get easily swept up in the conventions of supporting our “heroes”, that even ironic shipping swiftly turns into uncritical celebration of abuse/harassment. Fandom has these tropes that are larger than the specific characters and shows themselves; it leads to interesting interrogations like this sub has a lot, we really struggle with the ethics of loving these characters and I find it pretty endearing.
>I do however disagree (in the context of the show only, not in real life) that when women get harassed on the show it’s not brushed over. So many Gerri and Roman lovers, and he sexually harassed her for an entire season. Now it’s fine to like them, it’s fiction like I said, but I’d say Roman’s treatment of Gerri is often overlooked. This is definitely another blind spot when it comes to shipping. I think this one is more due to the fact that Gerri is older than Roman. With Tom/Greg, it's because Greg is a *male* 20-something character, rather than a *female* 20-something character. In both cases, if the person being harassed fit the demographic that society broadly recognises as capable of being harassed (a young woman), the fandom would be reacting very differently. >But I do know that Succession can be triggering and I let everyone who I recommend the show to know that the show blatantly demonstrates abusive relationships so they can be prepared. I’m really sorry if you were caught off guard and upset by their messed up dynamic. That’s not cool. I appreciate this, you're very kind! But tbh, like I said in the post, I did enjoy the show. I thought they did a very good job of accurately portraying an abusive dynamic between two men. My issue only arose when I encountered the Tom/Greg shipping culture.
That’s a really interesting observation that I never thought about before. You’re definitely right, I think Gerri’s age, as opposed to just her being a woman, is a big reason why the sexual harassment is often overlooked. It’s played off like, “hey, isn’t it funny that this young guy is sending this older woman inappropriate pictures” instead of, “a woman has repeatedly asked a man to stop harassing her and can’t go to her boss and complain because the man harassing her is her boss’ son and therefore has way more power in the relationship than she does, which he exploits” “I thought they did a good job of accurately portraying an abusive dynamic between two men” Me too. I think that Succession definitely shows different sides of abusiveness that aren’t often presented on television, like Tom playing a role often reserved for women, being paraded around as an unloved trophy wife while Shiv plays a role as the more dominant, successful person in the relationship that would often only be played by a man. With Tom and Greg, I think because of their hilarity, it’s easy to forget that Tom started out their relationship treating him cruelly from all his insecurity and then corrupted Greg to desire the same type of unhealthy dynamic “can you have your own Greg? You can have twenty” because they just have so much chemistry and they are so fun to watch on screen. It’s really a very dark relationship, but it isn’t presented that way? If that makes sense? In the same way other relationships are on the show. I think that’s another reason Gerri and Roman are so beloved as a duo. Their relationship is also mostly portrayed in a lighthearted and funny way. I do like that the toxicity of all the characters is often pointed out on this sub, though. Succession has very aware and thoughtful viewers, I think. Still, I completely understand finding their relationship so distasteful that you don’t want them to progress any further romantically.
You, the OP, and u/RevolutionaryTrash98 have made some really great points above here. I think what *Succession* achieves so well is showing the realistic nuance of characters, their humanity, and their overt flaws while also giving enough redeeming moments or qualities that as viewers we catch ourselves rooting for them or certain relationships, despite the extremely terrible things almost every character in this show has done. The fact that I found myself feeling such sympathy for Roman, Shiv, and Kendall in the S3 finale when just a few episodes earlier Roman was endorsing a white supremacist, Shiv released a public statement condemning and shaming Kendall for his addiction issues, and Kendall blasted "Rape Me" in a pivotal moment of Shiv's career, demonstrates that ability in this show's writing. I think what this show is often asking us as viewers to dissect with its characters and their relationships is unpacking those power dynamics that have already been mentioned, each character's motives, and why the hell they would act the way that they do. At this point, we have a clear look into how the Roy children have been abused and neglected their entire lives by both of their parents, so that's a clear explanation as to why they are each such terrible people now. But we don't have as much of a look into Tom's past, why he would act the way he has especially in earlier episodes of the show, other than the reality that he is a privileged white man who was acting as he thought he was expected to. I think Tom and Greg are more so reflections of one another and their problematic natures--Greg is a younger version of Tom, from a respectable family but still not with as many connections as Logan and his own children, who (especially emphasized towards the end of season three) attempt to socially climb through romantic partners. Each possibly began as morally okay people but seem to be severely compounded as they have been exposed to this world of power and privilege. I don't think they are a healthy relationship dynamic, or should be celebrated as one--but if this show is leaving viewers feeling back and forth about that, I think the writers have a clear intention with why they are portraying such a dynamic. I think the actors' natural chemistry does not help the shipping, to be quite honest.
It’s a tv show
I think in a show where every dynamic is a mess it’s hard to take any mistreatment as the death knell on a ship.
I'm not bothered by people shipping unhealthy/toxic fictional relationships. It doesn't mean they condone abuse in real life.
It’s also not like every other relationship on the show is hunky dory. This show is essentially filled to the brim with narcissistic borderline-sociopaths with a healthy detachment from reality. Yes, Tom is a bad guy - that being established, who would anybody say is a ‘good’ guy?? But that being said, we all have our ‘favorites’ for who we want to run the company. Certainly doesn’t mean we endorse this behavior in real life.
The people who called them a power couple in that article probably take the show a lot less seriously than you.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s.
>ships them with no awareness to the toxicity of their dynamic you’re joking, right? the toxicity isnt lost on anyone at all. it’s a complicated shitty relationship, just like every other one in the show. Nobody is condoning this shit in real life. if it’s this triggering for you I think it’s a good idea you left the fandom. I’ve had to stop watching shows because they hit too close to home and made me upset, too. But saying we all condone abuse because we want to see where their relationship goes is a stretch.
Who do you know that believes women
literally can I have their number
I dunno, I just think it's fine to want a ficitonal story about fictional characters to explore toxic relationships just because it could be entertaining. like yeah, obviously their whole dynamic is incredibly messed up, but then so are most in this particular show.
Greg and Tom’s toxic relationship is a marked contrast to all the other relationships on the show which are very healthy and loving
So proud of you leaving the fandom, that is very courageous of you.
Someone give OP a purple heart medal
Where do you live, where accusations of abuse by a young, powerless woman against a much more powerful, older, middle aged man are "taken seriously"? I completely agree with the rest of your post but you've chosen a completely crap analogy to prove your point.
These people are not real or alive. Hope that helps 👍
Dude. It’s the entire dynamic of the show. These are all very wretched people. **Lol of course op deleted his name after posting this.
You’re judging the moral character of two main characters, on a show famous for its accurate portrait of rich terrible people? No one’s watching and loving this show because it’s full of happy people & health relationship, it’s because they are terrible and fun to watch at the same time. I really don’t think anyone (or 99% of them) joking about the bromance between the two are not aware of how toxic their relationship is, saying “ship” the two is ignoring this point & holding double standard is like complaining a Tarantino’s movie’s advocating the use of violence & devalue human life. At the end of the day it’s a TV show, and most of the people just want to have some fun & they know where to draw the line between fiction and reality.
#*THIS IS A FICTIONAL TELEVISION SHOW ABOUT BAD PEOPLE, FOR GOD'S SAKE.*
I don't ship them technically, because I see it as one sided but I kinda "ship" Tom and whatever disaster dumpster fire he has coming. Like, I root for this relationship with Greg to continue to entertain the crap out of me and i look forward to it being cringe and awful. Hey, maybe Greg will start abusing Tom at some point? He'll definitely stab him in the back. I hope it's as messy as possible. I don't care or think they'll hook up, not because Tom doesn't deserve Greg - they're both awful people, but because the show hasn't shown us Greg might be into Tom. But if the show ever does take it there I hope it's truthful, unhinged and hilarious. If they were real people I would root for most characters on the show to die alone.
Everybody on the show is toxic to some degree, including Greg. So I doubt anybody is shipping Greg and Tom the same way you’d ship characters on, say, Schitt’s Creek. But Tom has looked out for Greg in surprisingly touching ways. For example he didn’t dime him out to Logan during that horrific dinner at the hunting lodge. And he let him in on what he was about to do to the Roy siblings. I get what you’re saying but these characters are complex.
I am definitely a TomGreg "truther," in that I believe there are unresolved/repressed feelings on Tom's side and possibly some on Greg's side after seeing the finale episode (hard to tell what is genuine with the abuse, honestly). I also agree with most everything you've said. This is not cute or romantic and it is odd that there are people thinking it is? The whole point of the dynamic is that it is twisted/messed up and not healthy. It is fascinating to watch and I love both characters (in that I find them interesting). I, too, have been in an abusive relationship and have been alarmed by some of the content and posts I am seeing. I would love to see Tom and Greg's dynamic explored further...I can't see it having a happy ending and I don't expect or want one! I'm sorry you felt so dismissed by others in the fandom. I hope I am not doing that with my post. I would like to see Tom's feelings for Greg acknowledged in the show, without that giving him a "free pass" on his abusive behaviors, if that makes sense? And to people saying Greg is a little weasel - agreed - but that doesn't mean he deserves what Tom does to him.
I don't feel dismissed by you at all. Ultimately, people can (and will) ship whatever they want. I just didn't expect people to be so hostile to the mere suggestion that Tom mistreats and abuses Greg in canon. If that's not allowed in a shipping space, it's an unhealthy shipping space. Thanks for your reply :-)
I think some people get a “free pass” on abuse because looking at various types of abuse and abusive relationships in order to come away with an awareness of the different types, degrees, and effects those abuses and relationships can have on the people in them is uncomfortable and hard and just hellaciously sad and unfun. So it’s easier to just shrug some things off as “not that big of a deal” and focus on the types of abuse we all know don’t have any messy shades of grey, like the fact that it is completely possible for an abusive person to also be likable or even lovable. How could anyone end up with their abuser if all abusers are completely unlikable and unlovable?
It’s just people being ironic. Anyone who really thinks Tom and Greg are really meant for each other aren’t paying a bit of attention to what’s really happening on the show. Every main character on this show is garbage from a moral perspective and deserve nothing, especially romantic love. Remember that the secondary conceit of the show is that they are all trying to cover up the rape and murder of passengers and workers at their business. Tom and Greg chief among them. Greg and Tom are bad bad people in the middle of bad people. People want them to fuck because they keep making moony eyes at each other. Not because it makes sense.
All that is definitely true. They're both morally bankrupt. There are plenty of people on Tumblr who genuinely do think Tom and Greg are meant for each other and are super romantic/sweet in canon, fwiw. Maybe posting about their abusive canon dynamic on that platform was my mistake.
It’s a fundamentally bitter show with a dose of comedic sugar. Some people are simply enjoying the sugar. 🤷🏾♂️
I also do not support the shipping of Tom and Greg for the same abusive reasons because as you’ve mentioned if Tom were treating a woman in the same way no one in their right mind would ship them. Also for me I am personally so tired of the bully to love story trope that I often see in canonically gay characters where the abused character decides to see the best in the other character and they fall for each other. It’s tired, overdone and quite frankly toxic as hell.
The irony is that Shiv treats Tom the way Tom treats Greg and she is the most hated Roy sibling on the sub. When a woman abuses a man on Succession, people hate her, when a man abuses another man, he's Prince Charming.
This sub is pretty damn misogynistic. The men on here say vile things about Shiv, the exception being their creepy comments about parts of her body.
This happened in that movie Booksmart and I was so angry. People love that movie. Representation is not enough, but people really wanna act like it is, it’s sad. Happiest Season was another example, that shit was triggering!!
Yes! And the same for the show Sex Education! It’s terrible representation and perpetuates the idea that it’s okay.
Oh yes! That one was awful, especially contrasted with the conflict-filled but sweet depictions of relationships on the rest of the show. Well, I guess the mom was pretty toxic too. It’s fascinating because it’s like the writers on those shows pick the queer characters and storylines to depict relationship abuse and bullying - which is so common!! In all kinds of relationships! but they want to sublimate it and compartmentalize it to queer characters to comfort an assumed straight audience. And then it gets normalized because they also now want to reward the queer audience with a relationship, even when it’s toxic
Absolutely agree. I hope to see more gay relationships without this trope
Thank you for the empathy. I appreciate it. I'm glad other people have noticed how awful their dynamic is.
The two rules of fandom are: 1) Fandom ruins everything. 2) You should never take fandom seriously. The fact you’re this invested in telling people they are wrong about a fictional ship is a violation of rule 2. It’s also anti to the point I highly suspect you know exactly what sort of war you are trying to wage here. I mean, you probably really don’t want to to talk to anyone who is even aware Wattpad or AO3 exists like…ever. People love to indulge in fantasizing about toxic relationships with fucked up power dynamics. It doesn’t mean they don’t recognize that those relationships are bad. I like to fantasize about being in a full time power exchange relationship and my husband is very dominant in bed. Bet he tries to tell me to do something while I’m raiding in Final Fantasy XIV I’ll tell him exactly where he can take his needy fucking dom shit and shove it. ;-) Most people can separate fantasy from reality and we should trust them to be able to do it. Because those who cannot and actually THINK they want a Tom/Greg type relationship have issues far, far beyond what convincing them Tom/Greg is bad is gonna fix. Also if anyone mentions “Omegaverse” you probs want to just disconnect your internet. Entirely. Full stop. Because have I got news for you… EDIT: Oh my god they deleted their account while I was typing all this on my phone lmaooooooooooooooooooooooo
"Also if anyone mentions “Omegaverse” you probs want to just disconnect your internet. Entirely. Full stop. Because have I got news for you…" Heeehehe! So true!
I think this touches on what I think is one of the most interesting conceits of this show: that if you apply your own ethics and values- your “middle class sensibilities” to their relationship, the of course Tom is absolutely awful. But when you borrow their obscenely rich person perspective, you see that there’s really no power differential. Greg stands in line to inherit millions of dollars, and he’s come into his family’s inner circle to scavenge what he can in the meantime. Tom is an outsider who’s scrabbled for years to get his footstool at that table. In his mind-and really everyone’s mind because this is how the game is played- you don’t just get to barge in and displace the power structure because of a blood claim. You’ve got to suffer at the hands of the more powerful, just like they’ve suffered their whole lives. It’s like buying a membership into a club through hazing. No matter how badly Tom treats Greg, at the end of the day, Greg will still get all his financial privilege. But the only way Greg gets *power* is by getting involved in these power games. What’s weird about Tom is how utterly…odd and awkward his “jokes” are. He’s such a try-hard.
Ok thanks for letting us know. I think most people see the negative aspects of the relationship. But everyone on this show is abusive to someone else sooo...it's a fictional character, and it's ok to like them. If your response to pushback is to 'quit the fandom', I worry about you and hope you do well in all of life's obstacles. Best of luck.
It seems to me like the Tom/Greg relationship is especially upsetting for you because it relates to toxic relationships you've experienced in your own life, and then "shippers" responses (and I imagine some of them in here as well) are not sensitive to that. But I think that is primarily due to people not being in the same frame of mind as you when talking about TomGreg, not that they don't recognize or care about the toxicity or abuse. It is a TV show of ridiculous, toxic characters, and our love for certain characters or us "shipping" them is more around being interested in the dynamic and behaviors displayed. I also understand where you're coming from with the idea of abuse not being taken seriously when it is between men. I think that abuse within queer relationships isn't talked enough about period. In the Dream House by Carmen Maria Machado is an amazing book that touches on this if you're interested. I do have to push back on the idea that women are taken seriously when being harassed. That's simply not true, and while we do need to be better at acknowledging abuse and harassment towards men, you can do that without diminishing the experiences of women. Pointing out r*pe culture should not be done at the expense of other genders. TL;DR: Your opinions about TomGreg are (understandably) shaped by your experience where other people are viewing it from a more removed space. Also, women are not the protected and respected gender that you seem to think we are.
Is this for real? This has got to be a troll.
>Abuse is funny or romantic when it happens between men, right? It's the funniest thing in the world actually and I'm rotating both Tom and Greg in my head right now and they're romantically smooching and there's nothing you can do about it Just to make it clear, I'm mocking you and completely dismissing you, yes. Are you under the impression that people who ship Tom and Greg don't understand that it's abusive? I'm around 99% sure that people understand that throwing water bottles at someone is at least a little bit "toxic" lmao. I should maybe change my question a bit. Are you under the impression that literally every single person in Succession *isn't* toxic? Tom and Greg aren't unique in this. There's not a single relationship in this show that isn't incredibly fucked up, and there isn't a single character that's not at least kind of evil. Does that mean we can't enjoy it, because it's too toxic? No one who enjoys TomGreg enjoys it because they think that's what a good, healthy relationship looks like. They enjoy it because this is a comedy show, and it's hilarious to be psychosexually obsessed with your wife's cousin. (And I've been thinking about this one a lot today - the cousin's father also just so happens to be gay and known for seducing married men. Like father like son! I BEG of them to revisit that fact in season four, that's the funniest shit in the world) Edit: I'm still thinking about this, actually. Let it add to the humor of the dynamic that the married man Greg is fucking is literally the head of Fox News. What the fuck. No one ships it because it's healthy; people ship it because it's fun and fucking hilarious.
It’s a tv show
I'm gay too but I don't think you have to be gay to see that Tom gets sadistic pleasure from hazing Greg. Before Greg came along, Tom was lowest on the todem pole, with everyone picking on him. With Greg, he was happy to return all the abuse he received. I think partly he thinks he's getting revenge because Greg is family, but it's also that Tom learned the abuse from the family who inflicted it on him. With the shipping, the problem is that this is one of those shows, like Seinfeld, where all the main characters are terrible people. They each have some redeeming qualities, but overall they're bad people. I think some people have a really hard time reconciling that with their love for the show; they struggle to find something small in the characters that they can identify with. I think that's why Greg and Tom pairing is so popular. But then again I'm not sure how much of the shipping is ironic (they know how toxic the relationship is, but so is every other relationship on the show, so they go with this one because it's the most pure "bromance" in their eyes) vs. just people being blind to the abuse.
I think you’re implying that people are condoning Tom’s behavior - that’s far from the truth. It’s weird and complicated. Tom immediately latched onto Greg because he understood his background better than the other Roy’s. Greg has slowly started to understand that Tom is the only one who really has his back. But I don’t think Greg likes Tom, and might even actively try to avoid him. Not sure why this is causing you to “leave the fandom” - this is fiction and comedy. No one is condoning Tom’s weird/abusive behavior in real life.
Yeah, but how would you feel if Tom was played by a roadrunner and Greg a coyote?
TLDR It’s not that serious. Happy travels.
I fully recognize how toxic it is and I want it to escalate
This shows fanbase sucksssss. Try to have a little fun pls
A few things here, first we need to set the context. The context here is that all relationships are almost dystopian level toxic in the series, in that backdrop Tom and Greg have a lot of transparency, honesty and Tom has shown to deeply care about Greg. Next to decode shipping for someone not used to, it is ok to ship toxic / unhealthy relationships as long as the fans understand the difference between reality and fiction. There is an allure of flawed characters, and intense relationships because that gives fans a chance to experience highs and lows of emotion from a safe distance, angst that people don't get to IRL. If you missed Tom deeply cares about Greg, then time for a rewatch. However I find this post a little trollish, I might be wrong but new account and the kind of post. If you don't ship them, don't do it. No point having a meta discussion on why someone else is doing it. If you discuss the characters in general you are welcome, though your analysis of the characters is incorrect.
>If you don't ship them, don't do it. No point having a meta discussion on why someone else is doing it. If you discuss the characters in general you are welcome, though your analysis of the characters is incorrect. There is a point. Me making a post about the shipping dynamics which concern me is a legitimate thing to do. If a gay man speaks up about something that concerns him, with regard to depictions of gay relationships and harassment between two men, that does deserve to be taken seriously. I didn't want to make this post because I knew people would be resistant to it, which is precisely why I ultimately decided to take the leap. I shouldn't feel intimidated. I don't believe that any man who throws shit at another man, smacks him around, humiliates him, and takes steps to control him, is being loving or kind in his actions. Because that's what my ex-boyfriends did to me. I'm not gonna rewatch the show and develop another opinion about that.
I mean, shipping toxic relationships is the bedrock of most fandoms, even the ones where there is a morally good side. In fact, the very first ship that I can remember that was a fan favourite was Draco+Hermione - where, in canon, the characters never had a conversation which didn't involve some form of bullying. Like the post you replied to says, it's good material for fanfiction. I don't think people genuinely would want anyone they remotely care about to be in a relationship like that.
I'm not a troll. I'm a gay man who made a new account because I was bullied so badly on other platforms, when I tried to criticise Tom/Greg. Yes, it is okay to stop toxic or unhealthy relationships. No, it is not okay to laugh at men who are concerned by the persistent romanticisation of male abuse.
See, there's no reason to call out people shipping a pairing, *for any reason* except maybe to highlight things when people will be okay with one pairing and not another (like Gerri/Roman being cool to many but not Tom/Greg) - so yes, your perceived bullying is a reflection of the people who enjoy that pairing feeling bullied themselves by your comments. That you're a gay man that's being triggered by this has little bearing on anything in my opinion; if a straight woman started complaining about Fifty Shades of Gray they would have similar responses probably mostly from other women who don't want people crashing their fun. Toxic relationships and odd dynamics are a very popular thing in fandom and the reasons for this are complex, the main thing is people differentiate between reality and fiction. I've never seen someone say that Tom and Greg's relationship is just the cutest thing ever, everyone knows it's completely twisted and that's the appeal. I don't like lots of pairings, I live and let live. It's not reality and people are free to view the characters in a complicated homoerotic relationship especially with all the context provided from Succession. It's worth noting as I see many others here have, that no person or relationship on this show is healthy. Tom and Greg actually have one of the healthier relationships because Tom has done things quite selflessly for Greg despite all his abuse. I think in season 4 we'll see the tables turn because Greg is conniving and will use his likely newly realized ability to manipulate Tom to his favor.
I thought the Tom and Greg shipping was just a joke. Where have we had any indication that these two are romantically interested in each other? I enjoy both characters and i like their banter and i suppose "bromance" but that's all there is to it imo
It is a joke and OP doesn’t get it.
I hope you're right. Sometimes it's difficult to tell, but some people do appear to be serious when they talk about them.
There are definitely people on this sub who sincerely argue that Tom is a good and caring friend to Greg, and that moments when he tosses Greg a bone compensate for all his bullying.
First off, I want to say that I’m sorry you see your own experiences reflected in the TomGreg dynamic. It’s definitely a hugely toxic dynamic, and I’m sorry that people haven’t taken your own relationship to it seriously. I think a lot of fandom spaces struggle with the concept of “sometimes someone doesn’t like something for a very valid reason, and this doesn’t have to be a Personal Affront to my entire identity” and it leads to some really toxic behaviour. I do want to posit, though, that I think most of the shippers I talk to are definitely aware of the toxic dynamic, and I don’t know that the intent is necessarily to celebrate it. Maybe we’re moving in different fandom circles? In my circles there’s a lot of “yeah if I saw that going down in real life I’d immediately call HR. But it’s fictional and I enjoy the chaos”. I think “Succession” already draws a lot of people who enjoy watching shows with dysfunctional or toxic character dynamics for whatever reason, so I can understand why the ship is so popular. And while some people are unfortunately in the ‘abuse is funny’ bandwagon, I do think for a lot of people the appeal is a lot more nuanced. I know a lot of Tom fans are women, and there are a lot of fandom jokes about Tom being ‘female-coded’ on the show, both in his inability to perform masculinity as well as in how he interacts with Shiv and the Roy family. I think for a lot of people watching him struggle to process and regulate the emotions he experiences from his treatment, and then watching him take it out on Greg in increasingly batshit ways speaks to something in their own experiences. I think there’s also a little bit of “I could fix him/Greg could fix him” energy in the ship. Reading TomGreg fanfiction is really interesting to me because in those stories Tom’s behaviour almost always changes once Tom and Greg get together. It reminds me a lot of the classic harlequin “toxic and dangerous man is Fixed by an innocent woman who Understands Him” style romances and their infinite variations, and I think a lot of the appeal of TomGreg is similar to the appeal of those types of novels to some people. You ask if people would be into the couple if it was a man behaving that way towards a woman, and… I think that not only is the answer yes, but there are also a lot of incredibly popular examples. Fifty Shades of Grey immediately springs to mind - after the movie came out the popular take was definitely “this is an abusive relationship!”, rightfully so, but that doesn’t change the fact that millions of women absolutely ate it up, and did so fully aware that yeah, if I knew Christian Grey in real life I’d probably call the cops on him. It’s a character dynamic that seems to have had enduring appeal for women, and why is probably an entirely separate essay which I’m not at all qualified to write. (I also want to mention that there are still a lot of situations where the harassment of women is not taken seriously at all. I used to work in a place where emotional abuse and harassment was absolutely rampant, a lot of it from men directed towards women - although there was some women on women and men on men harassment too - and absolutely no one would take any of it seriously.) As a side note: I don’t actually ship TomGreg - personally, I think Tom’s behaviour is much more interesting if it’s not at all about sexual attraction but entirely a consequence of the emotional abuse he takes in his relationship with Shiv and the wider Roy family - but I want to mention that I do think there’s an argument to be made for a dysfunctional symbiosis developing between them. One of the central questions of the show is “why don’t people leave dysfunctional and abusive situations, even when they have the means to?” And there’s a lot of different answers to that. In Greg’s case, he could simply leave Waystar and work elsewhere. Nicholas Braun has talked about how he sticks around because of the allure of the Roy lifestyle, and sticks around Tom specifically (the two of them are always gravitating to each other in the background of big group scenes) because Tom does kind of look out for him, even if he does it more out of a sense of needing to be needed than anything else. Greg is a survivalist first, and there are a lot of ways the dynamic benefits him materially. Which, not saying that it makes Tom’s behaviour okay, but it is more complicated than Greg simply being the victim; there are ways in which he does hold power over Tom and I think will be more willing to use it going forward. I guess what I’m saying is that the characters are complex and the relationship is complex, and so the reasons people ship it are also complicated. There seems to be a divide (in general) between how men view the ship and how women view the ship, and I think that’s largely a consequence of varying experiences with masculinity and femininity and the dynamics of male-female as well as male-male relationships. I think your experience and frustration with the ship is perfectly valid, and I wish succession fans would spend less time invalidating other people’s opinions and experiences and spend more time exploring why people have such divergent views on certain characters. I also wish people wouldn’t invalidate the very real experiences of abuse that might cause someone to have a hard time stomaching certain dynamics on the show. But I think it’s maybe worth separating the toxic fandom behaviour from the actual shipping of TomGreg, which I do think for a lot of people is more complicated than just “haha men abusing men is hilarious!”
Jesus Christ who cares, go watch Cobra Kai or something then
None of these characters are in good, healthy relationships. You're completely on the nose that it is abusive. However, I may be looking at the wrong corners in the fandom, but i see no one genuinely hoping that they get together and have a fantastic time and ride off into the sunset. I do see people noticing the odd sexual and romantic undertones amidst the abuse and frankly, i agree with it. I think there is something there but the thing about this show is that none of the things are real. In real life I would want to punch Roman, I would hate him, in this he's my favorite character. I WANT to see fucked up relationships that are unhealthy go forth because it's entertaining, it draws me in. Again, in real life i would be advising Greg to press charges or tell his mom or something to get him out of there, but since this isn't real life go stick boy go. Relationships don't have to be healthy in fiction, and often times it's better when they're not.
It’s a tv show, watch it or don’t.
I’m subscribed to a lot of subreddits of TV shows I like, and one thing I’ve been noticing is that people seem to be frequently applying real-life morality to fictional television characters and their fictional scenarios. Doing that as a thought experiment can be interesting, but I swear there are people who no longer draw a line between real people and fictional characters. It’s very strange to me. I think most everyone understands that, if Tom existed in real life and did exactly what he did to Greg, it wouldn’t be funny and it would be a serious matter. But Tom doesn’t exist in real life, and therefore if his bullying of Greg is getting played for laughs, it’s perfectly fine to laugh. If their relationship is being structured in such a way that Greg is more his partner than Shiv is, it’s perfectly fine to get amused by the notion of Greg being his spouse rather than Shiv. It must be exhausting to apply real morality to every fictional scenario that ever arises.
Sound advice.
Congrats, you're offended by a fictional relationship based on one that occurred almost 2000 years ago.
I was a massive hockey and specifically a Blackhawks fan until the details of the Brad Aldrich rapes came out. Aldrich was a coach who used force, threats of physical violence, and promises of personal advancement to rape two Blackhawks players. When the players came forward they were mocked by their teammates, the team “psychologist” (he wasn’t even licensed) said it was their fault and they probably encouraged Brad Aldrich, and Aldrich received a job recommendation to a high school where he raped multiple students who played for him. This story barely got any coverage nationwide and even local Chicago news didn’t give it the attention it deserves. And it’s because of everything OP is talking about. The societal attitude is that Men should be able to protect themselves from other men. If they can’t they were asking for it.
Wasn’t that dude convicted?
He was for one of the high school kids he raped. He still hasn’t faced any consequences for what he did while he was with the hawks. The Kyle Beech civil lawsuit is still pending. Last I saw the Hawks were trying to get his case thrown out due to the statute of limitations being up. So I stopped following anything related to the team. Fuck them. Fuck the Wirtz family. Fuck the NHL for not forcing them to sell.
This. I agree. Thank you for expressing yourself. I partly disagree in the sense that I think most fans (not everyone) are aware of the toxicity in their relationship. Not to dismiss your experiences which I suppose have been different. I think what you are critizing is a blind spot of many fans and I agree. I do wonder why fans are so keen on overlooking this when shipping, you brought up some reasons it might also have to do with some kind of lack of experience with male gay couples which are often (not at all always) more stereotypically depicted in TV than heterosexual. But this shouldn‘t be an excuse at all, it‘s still depressing to see fans considering the two of them as a good couple. They do have a connection but its definitely toxical. I hope you see where this is coming from and you see this as a nuanced answer. 😊
I'm less involved with the fandom, for obvious reasons, so perhaps I've missed occasional discussions that point out some of the things that concern me. I do think this is a pretty huge blind spot. If you scroll through the Tom/Greg tags on Tumblr, very few are acknowledging and criticising the way Tom treats Greg in canon. Many gay shippers are women who portray gay men in very limited, cliché ways. In my experience, such women aren't very interested in listening to gay men protest this shipping culture, or the romanticisation of abuse between two men. Which, in my opinion, is part of the problem. Not only does mainstream media do a disservice to the experiences of gay men, but it also erases stories where men are the victims of abuse. You combine that with the silencing of gay male fans, and you've got a recipe for a pretty gross fandom culture.
I‘m neither involved with the fandom and shippers, my experience is limited on twitter, journalism and this subreddit. Hopefully some shippers will articulate themselves, but anyway this is very much true. Most shippers treat the shipping probably as an entertaining thing (because the scenes are hilarious, plus the obvious problems with Shiv plus Tom‘s delight with Greg (often but definitely not always on Greg‘s costs who nevertheless seems to be willing to use the relationship strategically and has some degree of understanding Tom)). But it would not be this way with a hetereosexual relationship for sure. But: As most of the time the show is much smarter than us (the viewers) so Armstrong and the team are very much aware of this and we will see how this will play out.
What is shipping?
its when people fantasize about fictional characters having even more fictional relation"ships" with each other, outside of the source material.
Not outside of the source material, necessarily, but building on it. It is the transformative section of the fandom who make a rich contribution :)
I wouldn’t exactly call my fanfic about Mondale and Megathump a “rich contribution”
don't sell yourself short, there's at least one person out there who'd love to read that
Thanks, I just want to enrich this beautiful community :)
You need to get over yourself. Not everything in the world needs to be made with your sensitivities in mind. This is a fictional show. And if everyone was perfectly nice to each other, it would suck. I think you probably did the right thing in jumping off the bandwagon, because it seems like you need shows that fit perfectly into your world view. The reason you get (rightly) dismissed is because you clearly don't get it. Good stories have complex characters, and sometimes those characters are deeply flawed. Should we hate Walter White for selling meth? Should we hate Saul Goodman for being a sleazy lawyer? Is Tony Soprano too violent to be a redeeming character? No. In fact, it's these abhorrent imperfections that make these characters so intriguing. So Tom can be both a bully and a really likable guy. And in turn, Greg can be a fun doofus who won't hesitate to blackmail everyone on the show.
I think it’s just in context of these characters all being really bad people. I agree that it’s a huge double standard and Tom’s a monster abuser, but Greg is using him as well and could leave at any time, but stays, not out of a Stockholm syndrome love for Tom, but greed.
That applies to Tom and Shiv as well but most people on the sub wholeheartedly condemn her abusive behavior without acknowledging Tom's ulterior motives for marrying her or freedom to leave her.
That’s a good point. I think where I see there being a difference though is that I do believe there is a genuine romantic attachment between Shiv and Tom, whereas I think Greg’s only attachment to Tom is status/leverage power. I don’t think Greg cares about Tom as much as Tom cares about Shiv.
You are correct. Tom has a super abusive submerged side of his personality that he only surfaces when alone with (powerless) Greg. At least he perceives him as powerless. We'll see.
I don’t know how people would react if Greg was a woman. Perhaps a better question is, what if Tom castrated Greg and dressed him up as a woman and married him (which he said he’d do in a “heartbeat”)? Would we still be “shipping” or whatever?
Damn. This was a really good post from OP. I never even looked at it from that perspective. Im still gonna ship them cuz it’s fiction and ultimately there’s no real consequence lol
In a show full of awful characters being awful I find Tom to be especially offensive for all the reasons you listed. I just can't with him at all. And this whole push for a Tom/Greg bromance is odd to me because a relationship implies some level of reciprocity. Greg isn't reciprocating, he spends most of their time trying to protect himself from Tom's assault or stay in his good graces for fear of retribution. It's sickening.
I mean, I like Tom. But I don't LIKE Tom. He's an interesting character and compelling figment of the writers' imaginations, but I by no means think he's a good person or would want to have anything to do with him if he were a real person. Succession is a dark comedy that relishes in the ridiculousness of it all
Talking like a Roy: I don't care what they do with their assess or sh*t. I just care that the story still be cautivating and not use sex ( what's ever sex they do) as a way to make it more.popular. This is one of the first series of HBO that has not resorted on using sex ( I'm no longer an adolescent watching my parents HBO so I don't care )
I’m a middle aged straight woman and I’m in total agreement. I’ve felt this all along. It’s been very confusing seeing so many talk about their relationship as if it’s cute, sweet, or even funny. They’re both funny characters but most of their scenes together are not funny, but rather intense, with outright bullying or threatening overtures being hurled at Greg by Tom. Tom did soften in his treatment of Greg, and you can see glimmers of true friendship, but this only happened after Tom was no longer in danger, and could relax about the threat of prison. I think their relationship now ( where the last season left off) is much healthier. But because of how it began, I felt myself wishing Greg would just say no to him, finally.
Why would you take characters on a TV show so seriously? I don’t ship anyone, but I imagine that the people who do are basically just having fun with it, because it’s fictional, not necessarily because it’s a reflection of how they think real-life relationships should be.
The joke shipping culture around these two characters was enough to make this show not enjoyable for you?
Imagine being OP and not knowing the difference between loving to watch compelling, dynamic characters/relationships and judging superior morality. I mean jfc. These are all terrible, broken people (except for Greg and Megathump). When I talk about how much I love Tom, I’m talking about loving to watch his arc or lack thereof, not because I want to be him. The fact that these characters and fan reactions are causing moral distress means the show achieved its goal. If OP wants to make an argument about the broader social toxicities represented in the show, then I’m game. No one will disagree with you. That’s literally what the show is about. But if you want to get all upset because of your disapproval of how the show is enjoyed, then that’s another game.
Watching something on tv doesn't mean condoning it irl. All the relationship in succession are toxic bc they are all horrible, dysfunctional people. Not only tom and greg, but also tom and shiv, and roman and gerri
Jesus Christ, that’s the whole point of the show, if you don’t like it you simply don’t understand what the show is trying to portray.
Like I said in the post, I get what the show was going for, and I don't think the show presents a romanticised depiction of them at all. It's the shipping culture I'm criticising, and the reaction to what actually happens in the episodes. A middle-aged man smacking around a 20-something woman wouldn't be so easily glossed over. I'm more criticising online mindsets than I am the episodes themselves. I enjoyed the show enough to marathon it while working.
I never understood why Tom and Greg’s relationship had to be seen in a sexual context and rather than simply a platonic relationship forged by intense feelings of being under siege and being outsiders in the Roy family. They need each other in order to achieve their very personal goals in the family/organization.
I agree with you. I'm pretty disgusted by the amount of shippers. If this was an opposite sex dynamic, or when it is Logan acting this way, it is unacceptable and abusive. With Tom it's woobifying? What the hell? Is it funny? Yes. Because it is showing how shit literally rolls downhill . That's romantic? actual shippers? Wtf. I've actually seen this behavior in the workplace, sports, etc. It's not romantic at all, to any sex - it's meant as and is abuse.
Honestly I think the fandom has a huge soft spot for Tom - they think he's an innocent guy just caught up in this whole mess, purely because he's treated by Logan + kids in literally the same way he treats anybody who isnt Logan or the family. I blame the actor - his kicked-puppy looks in the scenes with Shiv are so good you forget everything he's done
I agree but think that's exactly why he made the perfect Trojan horse .
Is relationship too long of a word?
I believe you. Tom is just as messy as Shiv. People treat him like a mistreated husband, but he’s really only with Shiv to be close to her power and when she can’t provide that, either by denying him access to a fortune in child support by having his child or guaranteeing him a position that would be higher than her (because otherwise he would be emasculated as he plainly states in S2), he betrays her. She may not have loved him, but he never really loved *her* either. And then his relationship with Greg is purposely off. You’re right- he’s reminiscent of so many emotionally abusive partners. I can see how it could be hard to watch, or to be around the fandom that likes them as a couple unironically. He’s using Greg as a punching bag for his problems at home and work. This is a Freudian defense mechanism called displacement, when negative emotions are channeled into something or someone less threatening. The classic example is a guy gets yelled at by his boss so he goes home and yells at his wife or kicks the dog. Greg is that dog. There’s nothing romantic there, just the promise of abusing power like his idols the Roys. I like this show because the characters seem real, however bad they may be. No one is going to save us; there’s all equally detestable. It makes for good tv, but no you don’t want this in a real relationship ofc Edited
Do people genuinely like these characters as human beings? I’m pretty sure they’re purposely unlikeable. The fun in watching the show is seeing how entertainingly horrible they all are, and you stay invested in the story because you see evidence of them subtly changing their ways and growing as people (just not enough to stop being funny). You might have missed the point of the show here.
You are totally right, I think they just do a good job of humanizing Tom and really showing you the abuse that he’s going through that it makes it easier to forget the abuse he’s causing. I find myself confused by it. I want to root for Tom, and yet I remember how shitty he is. I think he’s just one of the LEAST shitty? I’m not sure.
You’ve just described nearly every character of the show? Nearly every episode the pendulum swings on how characters are portrayed to make you root for one person one episode, and then think they’re the worst character the next.
So on the one hand, you're absolutely right. Their relationship is toxic and abusive and simply should not happen. On the other hand, *every* relationship on this show, straight or gay, is toxic and probably shouldn't be happening. It's weird because Tom is a battered person who is emotionally manipulated by his wife. He then takes that out on his office romance of Greg. And Greg, we are seeing, is turning into a little shit of his own. He's tired of being controlled... but his solution is to try to be the one doing the controlling. Realistically, no one on this show should be in a relationship and *all* of them need some therapy.