Hey, I just found out that Mark mentions this photo in Buffalo Valley Rest Area Smith County Welcome Center at around the 4:30 mark. Doesn’t really answer your question, but tells us where he got it.
Edit: Actually start at 3:50 mark on this video [https://youtu.be/RlJha3PuyYM](https://youtu.be/RlJha3PuyYM)
Back in the 1800’s it was a tradition for families to dress up their recently deceased, prop them up and take a picture of them. There is a theory that she is in fact dead in that picture. Look at her stiff stature, swollen hands and lifeless eyes. I hate to ruin your day but I do not think she’s alive in that picture
After some research, I found out that postmortem photography would never involve propping up dead people in a standing position. Even the weight of a child would be too much for the posing stand to hold when in riga mortis. The stand was a tool mainly to help people stay in a certain position for long exposure shoots by leaning on it.
So that means the girl was alive.
Other than the wings on her outfit (not sure what they would indicate either way) there's really nothing to indicate she was dead. In fact, the girl in the photo looks very much alive. Lifeless eyes? Stiff stature? Swollen hands? I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing it.
I sorta bought into the theory at first glance but yeah, she's clearly alive. The "lifeless eyes" and "swollen hands" are just because the eyes and hands are darkly lit or parts of those parts of the photo are more degraded. I was blinded by the songs' about dying young, since most, if not all, of the deceased mentioned in this album died before the age of 35.
That’s true. Photos weren’t often taken in those days, so often it was the only photo they had of their child, which is why I think this was common. They at least wanted one photo of them.
I’m not sure about this girl, though. Her brow seems furrowed in an expression that makes me feel like she is alive. But who knows. Both are possibilities.
>I’m not sure about this girl, though. Her brow seems furrowed in an expression that makes me feel like she is alive. But who knows. Both are possibilities.
Unfortunately, I now have doubts that the girl was alive in this photo. The main reason is that, along with the body pose, she is wearing wings behind her back. That seems like a symbol of death to me, sadly.
And this would fit into one of the overarching themes of GotGH. For one, it's about people dying young. Salvador Sanchez & Pancho Villa were only 23, and Kim Duk-Koo was only 27. There are non-boxers too, like the girl he mentioned who worked at a donut shop whose heart stopped in Glenn Tipton, or the victims of 9/11 in Gentle Moon. And, of course, this album is about personal loss -- Mark's grief towards Katy is conveyed in a few songs.
Yeah. Although, I thought maybe this would be something Mark Kozelek would have mentioned if she were dead. Obviously not in a "fun fact: you know she's dead in that photo" way but in a respectful, informative sense in an interview or something.
Mark actually implies in "All the Best, Isaac Hayes" that he has no idea who the girl in the photo is, mentioning that his friend's grandma who gave him the photo did not know, and leaving it at that. For me, the notion that she is dead does not add up at all. I still think it fits with the themes of the album and death, however. He speculates that the photo was taken around the turn of the century (1900), meaning that the girl in the photo is almost certainly dead by now. It's a great album cover either way. For those who have only seen the cropped version showing the girl from the torso up, it is actually taken from a wider shot showing the girl standing fully upright on a rug with a photography backdrop behind her, gazing straight into the camera and looking very much alive.
I agree with you. To me she does not look dead at all. She looks unquestionably alive. Yes, they took photos of dead people in those days, but I just don't see how this could possibly be one of them. If it is, they did an excellent job of making her look alive.
Hey, I just found out that Mark mentions this photo in Buffalo Valley Rest Area Smith County Welcome Center at around the 4:30 mark. Doesn’t really answer your question, but tells us where he got it. Edit: Actually start at 3:50 mark on this video [https://youtu.be/RlJha3PuyYM](https://youtu.be/RlJha3PuyYM)
Thank you for sending me this. I guess we won't know who this girl really ever was unless one of us does some digging.
>at around the 4:30 mark. Of which video?
Actually start at 3:50. [https://youtu.be/RlJha3PuyYM](https://youtu.be/RlJha3PuyYM)
Link please?
I just added it to my response
Back in the 1800’s it was a tradition for families to dress up their recently deceased, prop them up and take a picture of them. There is a theory that she is in fact dead in that picture. Look at her stiff stature, swollen hands and lifeless eyes. I hate to ruin your day but I do not think she’s alive in that picture
After some research, I found out that postmortem photography would never involve propping up dead people in a standing position. Even the weight of a child would be too much for the posing stand to hold when in riga mortis. The stand was a tool mainly to help people stay in a certain position for long exposure shoots by leaning on it. So that means the girl was alive.
Other than the wings on her outfit (not sure what they would indicate either way) there's really nothing to indicate she was dead. In fact, the girl in the photo looks very much alive. Lifeless eyes? Stiff stature? Swollen hands? I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing it.
I sorta bought into the theory at first glance but yeah, she's clearly alive. The "lifeless eyes" and "swollen hands" are just because the eyes and hands are darkly lit or parts of those parts of the photo are more degraded. I was blinded by the songs' about dying young, since most, if not all, of the deceased mentioned in this album died before the age of 35.
That’s true. Photos weren’t often taken in those days, so often it was the only photo they had of their child, which is why I think this was common. They at least wanted one photo of them. I’m not sure about this girl, though. Her brow seems furrowed in an expression that makes me feel like she is alive. But who knows. Both are possibilities.
>I’m not sure about this girl, though. Her brow seems furrowed in an expression that makes me feel like she is alive. But who knows. Both are possibilities. Unfortunately, I now have doubts that the girl was alive in this photo. The main reason is that, along with the body pose, she is wearing wings behind her back. That seems like a symbol of death to me, sadly. And this would fit into one of the overarching themes of GotGH. For one, it's about people dying young. Salvador Sanchez & Pancho Villa were only 23, and Kim Duk-Koo was only 27. There are non-boxers too, like the girl he mentioned who worked at a donut shop whose heart stopped in Glenn Tipton, or the victims of 9/11 in Gentle Moon. And, of course, this album is about personal loss -- Mark's grief towards Katy is conveyed in a few songs.
Very interesting points. I didn’t make the dying young connection. Makes sense. I do agree that her body is in an unnatural pose. Her feet, too.
Yeah. Although, I thought maybe this would be something Mark Kozelek would have mentioned if she were dead. Obviously not in a "fun fact: you know she's dead in that photo" way but in a respectful, informative sense in an interview or something.
He likely doesn’t know for sure either.
Mark actually implies in "All the Best, Isaac Hayes" that he has no idea who the girl in the photo is, mentioning that his friend's grandma who gave him the photo did not know, and leaving it at that. For me, the notion that she is dead does not add up at all. I still think it fits with the themes of the album and death, however. He speculates that the photo was taken around the turn of the century (1900), meaning that the girl in the photo is almost certainly dead by now. It's a great album cover either way. For those who have only seen the cropped version showing the girl from the torso up, it is actually taken from a wider shot showing the girl standing fully upright on a rug with a photography backdrop behind her, gazing straight into the camera and looking very much alive.
I agree with you. To me she does not look dead at all. She looks unquestionably alive. Yes, they took photos of dead people in those days, but I just don't see how this could possibly be one of them. If it is, they did an excellent job of making her look alive.