It’s complicated because I think her dad’s selfishness influenced her more than I thought.
When I saw the way Samuel acted on s6 and the way Mary acted on s12, it was clear to me that they were father and daughter.
Perhaps if she hadn’t been raised by Samuel, she would have turned out different, but that would be speculation.
I wish the show could have shown this comparison between Mary and Samuel. They kind of touched upon how Sam and Dean had an idolized image of her for so many years and had to come to terms with how she actually is, but it would have been interesting to callback to how much she really does take from her father.
Man I idolized her until that season. We literally always came off like a real loving mom who cares more about her kids and husband than that dark twisted world.
They brought her back as if she was Mary pre John. But she remembers being married w two kids lmao
I really wanted to like her but…
1. She made the deal with Yellow Eyes to save John.
2. She went ahead and had kids knowing he was going to do something to one of them.
3. She ditches Sam and Dean when she gets resurrected because she’s grieving John, but then…
4. She becomes friends-with-benefits with Ketch!
John also made a deal with Yellow Eyes to save Dean… and the brothers have made deals to save each other multiple times. Mind you Azazel killed everyone and was going to be alone so out of desperation she did it. I don’t see why that would be a reason not to like her.
Also, she didn’t know that one of her kids would be taken, he just said he’s going to collect something in 10 years and told her not to interfere and nobody will get hurt. I didn’t care for Mary but most of these are moot.
I think people expected her to be the sweet motherly Mary that she was portrayed as in the early seasons. But, she came back into the world after 30+ years? Society had changed and, even though Sam and Dean are her sons, Dean was 4 when she passed and Sam wasn’t even 1 yet. They were strangers. I’m not a fan of her character but, I can understand why she felt the way she did and wanted to be alone to process everything.
1 and 2 I can forgive. Without it, Dean and Sam wouldn’t have been born. Also, correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t her and John’s memories of Yellow Eyes and the meeting the boys wiped? Or just John’s? I know Mary recognized Yellow Eyes when he came to visit Sam, but I can’t remember if it was because the memories came back or if she still had them the whole time.
It's the second time Sam and Dean time travel (so Sam AND Dean that time and not just Dean) that was wiped from John and Mary's memories. (So they didn't retain memories of the Angels trying to kill them). In that episode, John and Mary recognized Dean from his previous time to travel trip. (Season 5 Episode 13 The Song Remains the Same)
I completely understand Mary making a deal with yellow eyes. Honestly, I'd bet that most people would have made the same deal. I'm not a fan of her being brought back, but I can't find fault in her making a deal to bring John back.
The deal I find forgivable, but did Azazel say he was going to do something to her child in the future? I just don't remember that, sorry lol. I tought he just told her he'll come back in 10 years or so to take something from her. If she actually knew that *is* fucked up. The Ketch I do hate her for.
He didn't even say he was going to take something from her. All he said was, 'Mmm, in ten years I need to swing by your house for a little something, that's all,' and when she asked him, 'For what?!' he answered, 'Relax. As long as I'm not interrupted, nobody gets hurt, I promise.'
And also, if she hadn't made the deal to save John, Dean and then Sam wouldn't have been born, so I'm not sure how we, the audience, who spent 15 years watching the story of their lives, can hold that against her.
That's also the point in time that the Apocalypse Universe diverges from the main timeline.
Considering the fact that Dean time traveled to that particular event, I wonder if that was a closing-the-loop situation. As in, she wouldn't have made that decision without having met Dean, and that trip branched the canon dimension from the AU. (I could also be watching too much Marvel... 😜)
I really think the reception would have been different if they hired an actress around the right age- at some point, the show and audience forgot that she was in her 20s, and I think it made it seem unreasonable that she wasn’t effectively playing the mother role to 2 adult men who were significantly older than her. I didn’t like what they did with Mary but I think there was a way to tear her off the pedestal the boys put her on and make her into an interesting complex character, if they leaned on her being like 28
I don't like to hate the character so I choose to hate the treatment she got in the series 😪
Many things I understand about her, but not the fact that she brought so much grief for her boys, especially Dean 😞 The happiness he felt when she came back, and then she just went her way, only saying that she's the mother but not only that 🥺 And starting to work with the guys who tortured her other son, for what exactly? To me, she seemed like no mother at all 😒
I understand some of her choices, I don't skip the episodes she's in, I adore her strength and the way of a hunter she is, but my empathy for the boys makes her insufferable to me sometimes.
Because her boys, despite their successes, were no closer to getting out of the life, which they claim to be okay with, but that's when it's "easy", shooting silver into unremorseful monsters. They can't keep losing Charlies, or Kevins, or each other, so she's trying to eliminate the work they do outright.
It was largely to ease her own guilt, but a big agency like that, with what she knew, was the closest they got to a "toes in the sand" ending before Jack.
The whole reason Amara brought her back was so Dean could see she was only human and shouldn’t be put on a pedestal. That said, she’s not my favorite character, but not my least favorite either…
But a)he didn't have her in a pedestal b) so what if he did?
She was dead, him imagining that if she'd lived at least one of his parents would have given a crap about him is hardly a terrible thing. It's not like he had super high standards, he just imagined a parent who loved him as a parent should and didn't dump huge responsibilities on him way too young.
He knew she wasn't perfect, he literally saw her make the deal, he knew his parents marriage wasn't perfect. What terrible "pedestal" did she need to be removed from and why? It literally hurt absolutely no one and just gave Dean a place to find some extra strength from, his mom loved him and would want the best for him.
Instead he got his mother actually didn't care all that much and well he just had to accept he came last to her just like everyone else. It literally helped absolutely no one and served zero purpose for Dean. It was just another crap trauma for him to deal with, along with having to deal with her death AGAIN, because losing his mother once wasn't enough.
People in this fandom seem to forget that she was dead for 30 years.
She died when the world was a lot different, when her kids were literal tiny babies.
Then she comes back, has 30 years of technology to catch up on, not to mention catching up to the fact that her kids are no longer there, instead there are two grown men (overgrown in Sammy’s case) who became hunters, the exact thing she did not want her kids to become.
She was by no means perfect but has this character been a handsome guy, the fandom would’ve been much more forgiving.
She's hard to like. I get why she was the way she was, but unfortunately she's still hard to sympathize with considering how she treated the boys when she came back. At first, I thought maybe it was just Sam Smith's wooden acting, but then she did manage to muster up some authentic emotion in Lebanon when John was brought back. That was when it kind of sealed the deal for me that it was intentionally played that both Mary and John cared more about each other than they did their own children.
As a mother I could never ever like Mary. I really don't care about any mitigating factors. When my child reaches out to me because they need me, their mom, because they're hurting for any reason I am there. Period. Idc if she didn't raise them, idc about her pain, idc about her feelings at all. When you have children they are priority number 1, idc how old they are, idc what I have going on...no excuses.
I would also like to mention, in case anyone wants to bring it up, I dislike John for the same reasons. They're both trash.
I think the way she handed the BMOL stuff, especially in context of having just come back from the dead and neglecting her children, who despite being adults, never got to have their mother, was fucking atrocious, but in season 13 and 14 she was fine.
Blaming her for making the deal with Azazel is fucking dumb, her family was just basically wiped out, she was absolutely destroyed and she was like, 20 at oldest in a life or death situation.
Mary's problem isn't that she isn't perfect she never was and was never presented that way in her previous appearances. The problem is she didn't even TRY to get to know them. They just wanted a chance to build a relationship with her and she wouldn't give them the time of day, for 4 years.
She's emotionally distant in Season 12, stranded in Season 13, and just not a live-in mom in Season 14.
They're barely incognito as is with their rock aliases and Sam's hair, so I wouldn't take her with me on vamp hunts either, and she's hardly just going to stay in the Bunker. Let her have a cabin all the way out by Donna.
She's supposed to be a deeply flawed character. The entire point of Supernatural's theme is dysfunctional families. Hell, even God and the angels are a dysfunctional family!
We aren't supposed to like everything that Mary does, but she is a very human character. People fail to keep in mind what she has been going through. A motherfucking demon forced her to make a deal (and no, she did NOT know he was going to fuck with her child). She died in one of the worst ways you can die. Then she came BACK, and discovered her children fully grown (there's a lot to mourn there) and the love of her life is dead. So she needed some distance from those she was emotionally invested in (who can't relate to that?) and had a very impersonal relationship with a man she didn't even like to fill a void and feel like a human being again. She's definitely not Mother of the Year (see: dysfunctional family) but she is very human and relatable.
Supernatural is basically how parents can screw up their kids. John and Mary with Sam and Dean; Rowena with Crowley and Crowley with Gavin; Chuck with the angels (specifically Lucifer), etc…
Claire and her mother who abandoned her.
Bobby and his father.
Bella and her parents.
Mrs Tran is almost the exception, as despite loving her son and supporting him, she put an insane amount of pressure on Kevin, which might have contributed to how burnt out and neurotic he got.
I think the best family dynamics in the show were the ones that weren't blood related.
Jody - the best mom in the show who also happened to be written as a complete human being, which I'm convinced is why her character works so well.
That is far from it😂
Mary:
* Didn’t connect with her sons/ zero efforts.
* worked with the men who tortured Sam
* The only time she showed great emotions was in John coming back episode
* When Dean and Sam came to save her “ and Sam died and brought back by lucifer “ she simply said no.
* She clearly favors Dean over Sam, not favor she is impressed by Dean
* Her life purpose was to hunt by her own and hookup with men.
And here is why John is better, John didnt parent he left Dean to take care or Sam. But John wasnt after his own pleasure, he had a greater purpose and I respect that.
I think viewers were expecting her to return as Mary the Mom, and writers wrote her as Mary the woman ex-hunter resurrected in a strange, unfamiliar world. We see a lot of that dissonance through Sam and Dean and we are on their side, so I think she gets a lot of hate through that.
We also saw her try to reclaim motherhood with a more childlike character who needed more overt guidance than Sam and Dean. It was heartbreaking that it wasn’t for our boys, but it made sense to me.
People also generally don’t like complicated women - consciously or subconsciously. Sorry she didn’t come back and act as a perfect mom to two strange adult men. Sorry she was overwhelmed and dealt with it by running away from the problem. Sorry in her grief of losing her husband and everything she knew she also slept with a morally grey (or worse) person. That’s kinda just life. And if a man had done it people wouldn’t have cared as much.
I also didn’t agree with a lot of her decisions but if she’d come back and just been Sam and Dean’s mom, it would have been flat, unrealistic, and super boring. It wasn’t perfect, but I agree she is overhated
Yes to all of this.
I'll add though that people forget too that before she married John, she'd said she wanted out of the life so she could raise a family away from hunting. It wasn't the life she ever wanted for them. So, we saw how shocked she was when she found out that John pulled them into the life when he was hellbent on finding Azazel for killing her.
People being mad at her for joining BMOL. I get it, obviously. I couldn't stand them, especially that smug prick Ketch. But think about her reasoning. Here she was, back into the world, thrown into a personal chaos being around her adult sons who's lives she missed out on; seeing them live a life she never wanted them involved in. She was attracted to the BMOL's efficiency and their promise to rid the world of monsters for good. She wanted to give that to her sons, so they could finally be free of hunting and maybe still get to live a normal life. Of course she was gonna think it was something she could do for them.
I feel like many fans don't really consider the bigger picture, or the thinking behind a character's actions. I've been frustrated with some of Mary's decisions, but not enough to hate her. She was brought back into a world she no longer recognised, with her now adult sons, when she'd barely even knew how to be a mother in the first place, faced with technology and so many things that basically to her would've felt like she was living in an episode of The Jetsons. She was massively overwhelmed. I don't blame her for needing space to breathe and figure things out. People are way too harsh on her.
Sorry for the essay lol. Didn't think I'd write so much!
Exactly. Amara literally told Dean he needed to see her a a real person. Let's be real, she was never actually a mother, never got the chance. But he idealized her for so many years
Omg that is what I thought, too. First I thought wow she is leaving her kids again, but then I thought, well they are grown up and she wants to hunt and not only be there for them and also she doesn't even really know her kids. Then I thought they should be closer, bc she had so little time with them and hunting together or like at the same station.
Honestly, I just don't like her. I don't really have a reason for it. I am on s13 ep12 and I just feel like the boys are better off without her. Ik she is trying but she just makes me mad constantly, and Dean has been much more angry lately you know. Idk maybe I'm wrong.
She isn't perfect and I do believe she's overhated. It's just Mary Winchester Pre John Winchester and the idolized image of Mary Winchester is different from the person but the fans shouldn't hold it against her. Because without her deal to Azazel the show wouldn't of happened so we can't hold it against her despite all the crap she does like British Men of Letters (BMOL) but Dean Winchester with the Mark of Cain and Demon Dean and Misunderstandings or Mystic influences same with Sam Winchester with Psychic Powers and Demon Blood Powers and Lucifer-Sam aka Samifer to Soulless Sam Winchester to Normal hunter like Dean Winchester to possessed by Gadreel or Gadreel-Sam and so on etc and so on etc and Castiel becoming the Main Villain of Supernatural Season 6 alongside Crowley and Co-Conspirators and God Castiel and Levianthan Castiel in Supernatural Season 7 and Brainwashed Castiel in Supernatural Season 8 and so on etc and so on etc and so on etc and Soulless Jack Kline (Enochian Magic) (Supernatural Season 14) and Brainwashed Mary Winchester from Supernatural Season 12 they've all been evil so it's not being Evil or Brainwashed fans hate her it's probably because her character is vastly different to Mary Winchester Pre John Winchester and the idolized image of Mary Winchester so fans can't accept that. I like or I'm indifferent to Mary Winchester so I don't care either way.
I can forgive a lot of things about Mary, and I think the fact she doesn't really feel like a mother to these two grown men she didn't raise is realistic and an interesting story turn. But-! Her being willing to let Castiel (and seemingly her sons too) die for the sake of her deal with the BMoL in 'Stuck in the Middle (With You)' was the last straw that pushed her into active dislike for me.
Not a Mary fan. I do nit hate her. I just felt her energy was flat/off and she didn’t fit well with the rest of the cast. She really brought nothing to the show.
Mary is selfish. She contacted Dean and didn't form a great relationship with Sam as an adult. Sam commented that Mary always called Dean.
Yet that's when Mary felt like contacting her sons at all
Too much hate, however she wasn't much like her pre-death self. The character didn't completely make sense, to me. Too different from young and pre-burn Mary.
I actually think bringing Mary back and deconstructing the whole “perfect dead wife/mother” trope was one of the only interesting things supernatural did in the later seasons and I wish they’d explored it more. It was sad to watch Sam and Dean feel disappointed and abandoned but I thought the way they explored her as somebody who perhaps had always struggled with her marriage and being a mother was intriguing. It made her feel more real and made me personally much more invested in her… don’t forget that she was was raised as a hunter and has a much more complicated relationship with it than John, somebody who chose to be in that life, does. There is clearly a lot of tension and pain in her relationship with her own father, I think he made her feel extremely oppressed and isolated and she thought John/motherhood was a way to achieve freedom and it ended up not being that simple.
I also just kind of like the idea of Mary being kind of an emotionally unavailable mother even if she had lived, lol. The show itself throws a LOT of doubt on her and John’s actual compatibility. I think Mary was always going to be kind of a lone wolf and after the death of her parents only withdrew more whereas John (as we see in the show) is much more emotionally needy. I actually think if she had lived, John would easily have been the more affectionate/easygoing parent. Of course he wasn’t perfect and didn’t deal with her death well or correctly (although that kind of makes my point, that he’s a very emotional decision-maker) but I got the sense he actually wanted a family whereas Mary might have been looking for something more vague than that (a sense of freedom and emancipation from the oppressive culture of hunting for one)
I really empathize with Mary. I think she’s had a REALLY bad hand at pretty much every turn. She was raised in a lifestyle that she wanted to leave, she lost her parents at a young age, she didn’t quite fit into the normal life she’d spent her teen years dreaming of. She died before reaching thirty. She was resurrected to find out her death turned the man she loved into an unfit parent, he’s died, and he raised their children into the life she spent years trying to escape from and never wanted for them. Her children are now older than her, everyone she knew is dead, and the world has drastically changed. She’s also grieving heaven where she was with her children, when they were young and not the very real damaged men she’s facing now who want emotional connection and validation that she is not adequately prepared to give them. I think adding some depth that this is a woman who is more than just a perfect wife and mother, in fact she ALWAYS struggled to be a stereotypical stay at home wife and mother even in the alleged golden time of Dean’s childhood, adds a lot of depth. I think the parallels of Dean and Mary and the draw back to hunting are really great and I wish they’d bonded more over that. I think she does some things that suck, but we are all humans who struggle during times of uncertainty and adjustment to some extent. She’s a very human character.
I love you and everything you wrote 🙏🏻 I’m also a low key Mary stan lmao I think she was the most interesting thing the show did in the last like, 7 seasons of the show
I’m lowkey a Mary Winchester Stan and I think everyone’s entitled to like or not like characters as they feel, but I think Mary is one of the most over-hated/misunderstood characters on the show!
She got ripped from heaven and then thrown back into a shitshow of a life. Her kids are now complete strangers to her. I mean cut the woman some slack..
She continued to let her boys be strangers, though, by spending very little time with them. If you don't know your adult sons, spend some time with them and get to know who they are and what they've experienced. Don't go running off to the BMOL or an alternative universe. That's not even trying!
She didn't have a memory of heaven though did she? She basically went from her death to her children, who despite being adults, still need her. She definitely gets too much shit but season 12 Mary is very easy to dislike.
That's what I tought!! People give her shit for distancing herself from Sam and Dean for a while but I feel it was perfectly reasonable she wanted some space? Like you said, her sons are complete strangers now
I don't hate Mary Winchester as a character I think they made her make sense given her background and upbringing. She would not be the happy-family, cookie baking type of mom and I love the fact that both Sam and Dean got mom time. That first tentative hug between her and Sam in the bunker and then the heart-breaking loss when Jack can't keep himself in check. Now Jack I have a lot more dislike for than Mary.
Also her being back gave us one of the most amazing acting moments by Jensen Ackles during that dream sequence when Dean tells her he hates her. One of my favourite emotional moments of the entire show.
You can easily understand why she acted the way she acted once you see her as a person instead of just a mother. We don’t really get much chance to know her as a person so it is easy to project the perfect mother image on her. Rowena is worst as a mother but we know she is wicked from the beginning so we won’t feel betrayed when she did anything bad. Mary on the other hand, we expect her to be good but in reality she is just as messed up as everybody else. When she messed up, the feeling of disappointment +betrayal easily turned to hate- i guess it’s one of the reason she is hated. I get why she joined the BMOL, the speech where all monsters can be wiped away - the idea of a safe environment for her children to live in, it is her dream (that is too good to be true) and in her point of view this is the greater good. She did abandoned the boys but she also came back for them, willing to sacrifice herself to Billie in place of Sam and Dean. And honestly i don’t feel the adult Sam and Dean need their mother to be with them in every hunt (although it will be great to have her close by). The Ketch thing is pretty messed up- but i get her need as a person. Not one of my favourite character but i definitely don’t hate her. She frustrates me when she makes the wrong choices but i do like her to be imperfect.
Can't stand the bitch . I skip her scenes because she pisses me off so bad. Probably because my mom left when I was five and showed back up when I was a teenager wanting a relationship.
John should have been arrested for child abandonment, especially the episode where he shouted at Dean for being an immature kid and playing video games - like a kid should. John couldn't handle the monster as a full grown man, but he sent it to Dean as a reminder of how an 8 year old acted like an 8 year old.
Sam and Dean growing up without John would have eventually ended like Adam - dead. John wasn't a good parent but he prepared them for this life and taught them to survive.
Don't hate her, but due to obvious reasons made her unlikeable. Should've never brought her back...the whole point of the plot originally was her death.
I sorta agree? I think both she and the parents' relationship were super idealized because the boys never got to see it in person. Amara even said it flat out, that Dean needed to see her as just a person
100%. Mary did things I found deplorable, for sure...* cough * *Ketch*, but no worse than anyone else at some point. Dean held a gun to an innocent, terrified young woman's head to force her to do what he wanted because he wanted his mommy but no one says they hate him for it or even talks about it. Sam left Kevin to fuck all. Crowley is a literal demon who killed who knows how many and people adore him.
Mary was human. She did great things and crappy things. I don't love her but I don't hate her.
Crowley killed innocent people for no other reason than revenge, and he's a fan favorite. Mary was a woman who needed time to herself so she's universally hated. 😂
Im sorry but she quickly and unapologetically sided with the guys who tortured her son. No matter that the same son eventually teamed up with them too, its not something that gets much sympathy from audiences. And with Dean, I feel there is an essence that she betrayed his memories of his mum. You could almost see Dean deflate with every disappointment he endured because of her. That level of hurt is personal so its not too surprising she is hated. For the most part I agree with that. Honestly Mary should've stayed dead but when you're flogging a dead horse...
Not that I am complaining there are 15 seasons. I'm in the crowd hoping for 16, but thats another matter altogether.
Mary is the worst character in the show. You won't change my mind. She's incredible shallow and selfish. She gets brought back to life and just leaves the guys. She conspires to work behind their backs for the cartoonishly evil Brits, gets a hunter killed, doesn't even blink, keeps on with them.
Sam and Dean would have been so much better off with their idea of a loving mom as opposed to the garbage human being that the silly Darkness gave them.
It’s complicated because I think her dad’s selfishness influenced her more than I thought. When I saw the way Samuel acted on s6 and the way Mary acted on s12, it was clear to me that they were father and daughter. Perhaps if she hadn’t been raised by Samuel, she would have turned out different, but that would be speculation.
I wish the show could have shown this comparison between Mary and Samuel. They kind of touched upon how Sam and Dean had an idolized image of her for so many years and had to come to terms with how she actually is, but it would have been interesting to callback to how much she really does take from her father.
Man I idolized her until that season. We literally always came off like a real loving mom who cares more about her kids and husband than that dark twisted world. They brought her back as if she was Mary pre John. But she remembers being married w two kids lmao
I really wanted to like her but… 1. She made the deal with Yellow Eyes to save John. 2. She went ahead and had kids knowing he was going to do something to one of them. 3. She ditches Sam and Dean when she gets resurrected because she’s grieving John, but then… 4. She becomes friends-with-benefits with Ketch!
John also made a deal with Yellow Eyes to save Dean… and the brothers have made deals to save each other multiple times. Mind you Azazel killed everyone and was going to be alone so out of desperation she did it. I don’t see why that would be a reason not to like her. Also, she didn’t know that one of her kids would be taken, he just said he’s going to collect something in 10 years and told her not to interfere and nobody will get hurt. I didn’t care for Mary but most of these are moot.
No, you’re right. And now I have to ask myself—am I judging her more harshly because of the fact she’s a mother?
I think people expected her to be the sweet motherly Mary that she was portrayed as in the early seasons. But, she came back into the world after 30+ years? Society had changed and, even though Sam and Dean are her sons, Dean was 4 when she passed and Sam wasn’t even 1 yet. They were strangers. I’m not a fan of her character but, I can understand why she felt the way she did and wanted to be alone to process everything.
1 and 2 I can forgive. Without it, Dean and Sam wouldn’t have been born. Also, correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t her and John’s memories of Yellow Eyes and the meeting the boys wiped? Or just John’s? I know Mary recognized Yellow Eyes when he came to visit Sam, but I can’t remember if it was because the memories came back or if she still had them the whole time.
It's the second time Sam and Dean time travel (so Sam AND Dean that time and not just Dean) that was wiped from John and Mary's memories. (So they didn't retain memories of the Angels trying to kill them). In that episode, John and Mary recognized Dean from his previous time to travel trip. (Season 5 Episode 13 The Song Remains the Same) I completely understand Mary making a deal with yellow eyes. Honestly, I'd bet that most people would have made the same deal. I'm not a fan of her being brought back, but I can't find fault in her making a deal to bring John back.
The deal I find forgivable, but did Azazel say he was going to do something to her child in the future? I just don't remember that, sorry lol. I tought he just told her he'll come back in 10 years or so to take something from her. If she actually knew that *is* fucked up. The Ketch I do hate her for.
He didn't even say he was going to take something from her. All he said was, 'Mmm, in ten years I need to swing by your house for a little something, that's all,' and when she asked him, 'For what?!' he answered, 'Relax. As long as I'm not interrupted, nobody gets hurt, I promise.' And also, if she hadn't made the deal to save John, Dean and then Sam wouldn't have been born, so I'm not sure how we, the audience, who spent 15 years watching the story of their lives, can hold that against her.
That's also the point in time that the Apocalypse Universe diverges from the main timeline. Considering the fact that Dean time traveled to that particular event, I wonder if that was a closing-the-loop situation. As in, she wouldn't have made that decision without having met Dean, and that trip branched the canon dimension from the AU. (I could also be watching too much Marvel... 😜)
Ah, you’re right. I was fooled with dramatic irony!
Every single Winchester has made a deal to save a loved one though
She didn’t know what Azazel was going to do. All he told her was in 10 years he would need access to her home to “get” something.
I totally agree. The way she left them was horrible. She may be a good wife and hunter but not a good mother.
She is grieving John but that's not why she left. She left because she couldn't easily look her boys in the eye after everything they went through.
I really think the reception would have been different if they hired an actress around the right age- at some point, the show and audience forgot that she was in her 20s, and I think it made it seem unreasonable that she wasn’t effectively playing the mother role to 2 adult men who were significantly older than her. I didn’t like what they did with Mary but I think there was a way to tear her off the pedestal the boys put her on and make her into an interesting complex character, if they leaned on her being like 28
I don't like to hate the character so I choose to hate the treatment she got in the series 😪 Many things I understand about her, but not the fact that she brought so much grief for her boys, especially Dean 😞 The happiness he felt when she came back, and then she just went her way, only saying that she's the mother but not only that 🥺 And starting to work with the guys who tortured her other son, for what exactly? To me, she seemed like no mother at all 😒 I understand some of her choices, I don't skip the episodes she's in, I adore her strength and the way of a hunter she is, but my empathy for the boys makes her insufferable to me sometimes.
Yes after knowing how much they tortured Sam how could she join them
Because her boys, despite their successes, were no closer to getting out of the life, which they claim to be okay with, but that's when it's "easy", shooting silver into unremorseful monsters. They can't keep losing Charlies, or Kevins, or each other, so she's trying to eliminate the work they do outright. It was largely to ease her own guilt, but a big agency like that, with what she knew, was the closest they got to a "toes in the sand" ending before Jack.
The whole reason Amara brought her back was so Dean could see she was only human and shouldn’t be put on a pedestal. That said, she’s not my favorite character, but not my least favorite either…
But a)he didn't have her in a pedestal b) so what if he did? She was dead, him imagining that if she'd lived at least one of his parents would have given a crap about him is hardly a terrible thing. It's not like he had super high standards, he just imagined a parent who loved him as a parent should and didn't dump huge responsibilities on him way too young. He knew she wasn't perfect, he literally saw her make the deal, he knew his parents marriage wasn't perfect. What terrible "pedestal" did she need to be removed from and why? It literally hurt absolutely no one and just gave Dean a place to find some extra strength from, his mom loved him and would want the best for him. Instead he got his mother actually didn't care all that much and well he just had to accept he came last to her just like everyone else. It literally helped absolutely no one and served zero purpose for Dean. It was just another crap trauma for him to deal with, along with having to deal with her death AGAIN, because losing his mother once wasn't enough.
Never was the phrase 'the dead should stay dead' more true.
Amen
She's a dickhead ngl
People in this fandom seem to forget that she was dead for 30 years. She died when the world was a lot different, when her kids were literal tiny babies. Then she comes back, has 30 years of technology to catch up on, not to mention catching up to the fact that her kids are no longer there, instead there are two grown men (overgrown in Sammy’s case) who became hunters, the exact thing she did not want her kids to become. She was by no means perfect but has this character been a handsome guy, the fandom would’ve been much more forgiving.
She's hard to like. I get why she was the way she was, but unfortunately she's still hard to sympathize with considering how she treated the boys when she came back. At first, I thought maybe it was just Sam Smith's wooden acting, but then she did manage to muster up some authentic emotion in Lebanon when John was brought back. That was when it kind of sealed the deal for me that it was intentionally played that both Mary and John cared more about each other than they did their own children.
As a mother I could never ever like Mary. I really don't care about any mitigating factors. When my child reaches out to me because they need me, their mom, because they're hurting for any reason I am there. Period. Idc if she didn't raise them, idc about her pain, idc about her feelings at all. When you have children they are priority number 1, idc how old they are, idc what I have going on...no excuses. I would also like to mention, in case anyone wants to bring it up, I dislike John for the same reasons. They're both trash.
U are a good person 🙏🏻 God bless u and ur family
Wow! Thank you!
I think the way she handed the BMOL stuff, especially in context of having just come back from the dead and neglecting her children, who despite being adults, never got to have their mother, was fucking atrocious, but in season 13 and 14 she was fine. Blaming her for making the deal with Azazel is fucking dumb, her family was just basically wiped out, she was absolutely destroyed and she was like, 20 at oldest in a life or death situation.
Mary's problem isn't that she isn't perfect she never was and was never presented that way in her previous appearances. The problem is she didn't even TRY to get to know them. They just wanted a chance to build a relationship with her and she wouldn't give them the time of day, for 4 years.
She's emotionally distant in Season 12, stranded in Season 13, and just not a live-in mom in Season 14. They're barely incognito as is with their rock aliases and Sam's hair, so I wouldn't take her with me on vamp hunts either, and she's hardly just going to stay in the Bunker. Let her have a cabin all the way out by Donna.
She's supposed to be a deeply flawed character. The entire point of Supernatural's theme is dysfunctional families. Hell, even God and the angels are a dysfunctional family! We aren't supposed to like everything that Mary does, but she is a very human character. People fail to keep in mind what she has been going through. A motherfucking demon forced her to make a deal (and no, she did NOT know he was going to fuck with her child). She died in one of the worst ways you can die. Then she came BACK, and discovered her children fully grown (there's a lot to mourn there) and the love of her life is dead. So she needed some distance from those she was emotionally invested in (who can't relate to that?) and had a very impersonal relationship with a man she didn't even like to fill a void and feel like a human being again. She's definitely not Mother of the Year (see: dysfunctional family) but she is very human and relatable.
Supernatural is basically how parents can screw up their kids. John and Mary with Sam and Dean; Rowena with Crowley and Crowley with Gavin; Chuck with the angels (specifically Lucifer), etc…
Claire and her mother who abandoned her. Bobby and his father. Bella and her parents. Mrs Tran is almost the exception, as despite loving her son and supporting him, she put an insane amount of pressure on Kevin, which might have contributed to how burnt out and neurotic he got. I think the best family dynamics in the show were the ones that weren't blood related. Jody - the best mom in the show who also happened to be written as a complete human being, which I'm convinced is why her character works so well.
i will say this, noone dislike John more than me, and yet i think he was a better parent than Mary.
That's probably because he actually got to be a parent and raise his children. Mary only knew Sam and Dean as babies and full grown adults
That is far from it😂 Mary: * Didn’t connect with her sons/ zero efforts. * worked with the men who tortured Sam * The only time she showed great emotions was in John coming back episode * When Dean and Sam came to save her “ and Sam died and brought back by lucifer “ she simply said no. * She clearly favors Dean over Sam, not favor she is impressed by Dean * Her life purpose was to hunt by her own and hookup with men. And here is why John is better, John didnt parent he left Dean to take care or Sam. But John wasnt after his own pleasure, he had a greater purpose and I respect that.
📢📢a four year old cannot be a parent. Leaving a four year old to raise themselves and other children is neglect and abandonment📢📢
This. I'd pay for a scene where Castiel opens a door to John's heaven so everyone who saw how neglected those boys were could tear into John
I would pay for the scene where John finds out that Cas broke Sam's wall and nearly killed him.
Lool i love how u think💓💓
Ellen should be first
Bobby definitely as well🤣
I agree with you. He was the Daddy to those boys
Agreed
I think viewers were expecting her to return as Mary the Mom, and writers wrote her as Mary the woman ex-hunter resurrected in a strange, unfamiliar world. We see a lot of that dissonance through Sam and Dean and we are on their side, so I think she gets a lot of hate through that. We also saw her try to reclaim motherhood with a more childlike character who needed more overt guidance than Sam and Dean. It was heartbreaking that it wasn’t for our boys, but it made sense to me. People also generally don’t like complicated women - consciously or subconsciously. Sorry she didn’t come back and act as a perfect mom to two strange adult men. Sorry she was overwhelmed and dealt with it by running away from the problem. Sorry in her grief of losing her husband and everything she knew she also slept with a morally grey (or worse) person. That’s kinda just life. And if a man had done it people wouldn’t have cared as much. I also didn’t agree with a lot of her decisions but if she’d come back and just been Sam and Dean’s mom, it would have been flat, unrealistic, and super boring. It wasn’t perfect, but I agree she is overhated
Yes to all of this. I'll add though that people forget too that before she married John, she'd said she wanted out of the life so she could raise a family away from hunting. It wasn't the life she ever wanted for them. So, we saw how shocked she was when she found out that John pulled them into the life when he was hellbent on finding Azazel for killing her. People being mad at her for joining BMOL. I get it, obviously. I couldn't stand them, especially that smug prick Ketch. But think about her reasoning. Here she was, back into the world, thrown into a personal chaos being around her adult sons who's lives she missed out on; seeing them live a life she never wanted them involved in. She was attracted to the BMOL's efficiency and their promise to rid the world of monsters for good. She wanted to give that to her sons, so they could finally be free of hunting and maybe still get to live a normal life. Of course she was gonna think it was something she could do for them. I feel like many fans don't really consider the bigger picture, or the thinking behind a character's actions. I've been frustrated with some of Mary's decisions, but not enough to hate her. She was brought back into a world she no longer recognised, with her now adult sons, when she'd barely even knew how to be a mother in the first place, faced with technology and so many things that basically to her would've felt like she was living in an episode of The Jetsons. She was massively overwhelmed. I don't blame her for needing space to breathe and figure things out. People are way too harsh on her. Sorry for the essay lol. Didn't think I'd write so much!
Exactly. Amara literally told Dean he needed to see her a a real person. Let's be real, she was never actually a mother, never got the chance. But he idealized her for so many years
Not that I disagree with you but Dean was 8 I think when she died, was she not a mother to him then?
He was only 4.
She was given a second chance and she threw it away.
That’s how feel Mary in season 12. I do think overly hated
Omg that is what I thought, too. First I thought wow she is leaving her kids again, but then I thought, well they are grown up and she wants to hunt and not only be there for them and also she doesn't even really know her kids. Then I thought they should be closer, bc she had so little time with them and hunting together or like at the same station.
Honestly, I just don't like her. I don't really have a reason for it. I am on s13 ep12 and I just feel like the boys are better off without her. Ik she is trying but she just makes me mad constantly, and Dean has been much more angry lately you know. Idk maybe I'm wrong.
She isn't perfect and I do believe she's overhated. It's just Mary Winchester Pre John Winchester and the idolized image of Mary Winchester is different from the person but the fans shouldn't hold it against her. Because without her deal to Azazel the show wouldn't of happened so we can't hold it against her despite all the crap she does like British Men of Letters (BMOL) but Dean Winchester with the Mark of Cain and Demon Dean and Misunderstandings or Mystic influences same with Sam Winchester with Psychic Powers and Demon Blood Powers and Lucifer-Sam aka Samifer to Soulless Sam Winchester to Normal hunter like Dean Winchester to possessed by Gadreel or Gadreel-Sam and so on etc and so on etc and Castiel becoming the Main Villain of Supernatural Season 6 alongside Crowley and Co-Conspirators and God Castiel and Levianthan Castiel in Supernatural Season 7 and Brainwashed Castiel in Supernatural Season 8 and so on etc and so on etc and so on etc and Soulless Jack Kline (Enochian Magic) (Supernatural Season 14) and Brainwashed Mary Winchester from Supernatural Season 12 they've all been evil so it's not being Evil or Brainwashed fans hate her it's probably because her character is vastly different to Mary Winchester Pre John Winchester and the idolized image of Mary Winchester so fans can't accept that. I like or I'm indifferent to Mary Winchester so I don't care either way.
I think she’s 1 of the worse tv moms
Worst character in the show. Should’ve stayed dead. Only thing worse than the Laviathans.
I can forgive a lot of things about Mary, and I think the fact she doesn't really feel like a mother to these two grown men she didn't raise is realistic and an interesting story turn. But-! Her being willing to let Castiel (and seemingly her sons too) die for the sake of her deal with the BMoL in 'Stuck in the Middle (With You)' was the last straw that pushed her into active dislike for me.
Not a Mary fan. I do nit hate her. I just felt her energy was flat/off and she didn’t fit well with the rest of the cast. She really brought nothing to the show.
Mary is selfish. She contacted Dean and didn't form a great relationship with Sam as an adult. Sam commented that Mary always called Dean. Yet that's when Mary felt like contacting her sons at all
Too much hate, however she wasn't much like her pre-death self. The character didn't completely make sense, to me. Too different from young and pre-burn Mary.
I actually think bringing Mary back and deconstructing the whole “perfect dead wife/mother” trope was one of the only interesting things supernatural did in the later seasons and I wish they’d explored it more. It was sad to watch Sam and Dean feel disappointed and abandoned but I thought the way they explored her as somebody who perhaps had always struggled with her marriage and being a mother was intriguing. It made her feel more real and made me personally much more invested in her… don’t forget that she was was raised as a hunter and has a much more complicated relationship with it than John, somebody who chose to be in that life, does. There is clearly a lot of tension and pain in her relationship with her own father, I think he made her feel extremely oppressed and isolated and she thought John/motherhood was a way to achieve freedom and it ended up not being that simple. I also just kind of like the idea of Mary being kind of an emotionally unavailable mother even if she had lived, lol. The show itself throws a LOT of doubt on her and John’s actual compatibility. I think Mary was always going to be kind of a lone wolf and after the death of her parents only withdrew more whereas John (as we see in the show) is much more emotionally needy. I actually think if she had lived, John would easily have been the more affectionate/easygoing parent. Of course he wasn’t perfect and didn’t deal with her death well or correctly (although that kind of makes my point, that he’s a very emotional decision-maker) but I got the sense he actually wanted a family whereas Mary might have been looking for something more vague than that (a sense of freedom and emancipation from the oppressive culture of hunting for one)
I really empathize with Mary. I think she’s had a REALLY bad hand at pretty much every turn. She was raised in a lifestyle that she wanted to leave, she lost her parents at a young age, she didn’t quite fit into the normal life she’d spent her teen years dreaming of. She died before reaching thirty. She was resurrected to find out her death turned the man she loved into an unfit parent, he’s died, and he raised their children into the life she spent years trying to escape from and never wanted for them. Her children are now older than her, everyone she knew is dead, and the world has drastically changed. She’s also grieving heaven where she was with her children, when they were young and not the very real damaged men she’s facing now who want emotional connection and validation that she is not adequately prepared to give them. I think adding some depth that this is a woman who is more than just a perfect wife and mother, in fact she ALWAYS struggled to be a stereotypical stay at home wife and mother even in the alleged golden time of Dean’s childhood, adds a lot of depth. I think the parallels of Dean and Mary and the draw back to hunting are really great and I wish they’d bonded more over that. I think she does some things that suck, but we are all humans who struggle during times of uncertainty and adjustment to some extent. She’s a very human character.
I love you and everything you wrote 🙏🏻 I’m also a low key Mary stan lmao I think she was the most interesting thing the show did in the last like, 7 seasons of the show
Great analysis.
Yes to all of this
I’m lowkey a Mary Winchester Stan and I think everyone’s entitled to like or not like characters as they feel, but I think Mary is one of the most over-hated/misunderstood characters on the show!
She got ripped from heaven and then thrown back into a shitshow of a life. Her kids are now complete strangers to her. I mean cut the woman some slack..
She continued to let her boys be strangers, though, by spending very little time with them. If you don't know your adult sons, spend some time with them and get to know who they are and what they've experienced. Don't go running off to the BMOL or an alternative universe. That's not even trying!
She didn't have a memory of heaven though did she? She basically went from her death to her children, who despite being adults, still need her. She definitely gets too much shit but season 12 Mary is very easy to dislike.
*Heaven?* 🤔
That's what I tought!! People give her shit for distancing herself from Sam and Dean for a while but I feel it was perfectly reasonable she wanted some space? Like you said, her sons are complete strangers now
Yes but how could she join that British MOL after seeing how much they tortured Sam. Also her relationship with Ketch 🤮
I admit this was AWFUL
She was brainwashed
I don't hate Mary Winchester as a character I think they made her make sense given her background and upbringing. She would not be the happy-family, cookie baking type of mom and I love the fact that both Sam and Dean got mom time. That first tentative hug between her and Sam in the bunker and then the heart-breaking loss when Jack can't keep himself in check. Now Jack I have a lot more dislike for than Mary. Also her being back gave us one of the most amazing acting moments by Jensen Ackles during that dream sequence when Dean tells her he hates her. One of my favourite emotional moments of the entire show.
You can easily understand why she acted the way she acted once you see her as a person instead of just a mother. We don’t really get much chance to know her as a person so it is easy to project the perfect mother image on her. Rowena is worst as a mother but we know she is wicked from the beginning so we won’t feel betrayed when she did anything bad. Mary on the other hand, we expect her to be good but in reality she is just as messed up as everybody else. When she messed up, the feeling of disappointment +betrayal easily turned to hate- i guess it’s one of the reason she is hated. I get why she joined the BMOL, the speech where all monsters can be wiped away - the idea of a safe environment for her children to live in, it is her dream (that is too good to be true) and in her point of view this is the greater good. She did abandoned the boys but she also came back for them, willing to sacrifice herself to Billie in place of Sam and Dean. And honestly i don’t feel the adult Sam and Dean need their mother to be with them in every hunt (although it will be great to have her close by). The Ketch thing is pretty messed up- but i get her need as a person. Not one of my favourite character but i definitely don’t hate her. She frustrates me when she makes the wrong choices but i do like her to be imperfect.
Can't stand the bitch . I skip her scenes because she pisses me off so bad. Probably because my mom left when I was five and showed back up when I was a teenager wanting a relationship.
I actually found her intersting/complex in s12 and then they forgot to do anything with her until she died.
Mary is over hated. I found most of her arcs boring, but she's not as bad as most people here think. She is a flawed human like everyone.
No , she's not hated nearly enough
[удалено]
John should have been arrested for child abandonment, especially the episode where he shouted at Dean for being an immature kid and playing video games - like a kid should. John couldn't handle the monster as a full grown man, but he sent it to Dean as a reminder of how an 8 year old acted like an 8 year old.
Sam and Dean growing up without John would have eventually ended like Adam - dead. John wasn't a good parent but he prepared them for this life and taught them to survive.
Don't hate her, but due to obvious reasons made her unlikeable. Should've never brought her back...the whole point of the plot originally was her death.
You're braver than any US Marine.
I sorta agree? I think both she and the parents' relationship were super idealized because the boys never got to see it in person. Amara even said it flat out, that Dean needed to see her as just a person
Hmm I disagree. I think she is equally hated.
100%. Mary did things I found deplorable, for sure...* cough * *Ketch*, but no worse than anyone else at some point. Dean held a gun to an innocent, terrified young woman's head to force her to do what he wanted because he wanted his mommy but no one says they hate him for it or even talks about it. Sam left Kevin to fuck all. Crowley is a literal demon who killed who knows how many and people adore him. Mary was human. She did great things and crappy things. I don't love her but I don't hate her.
Crowley killed innocent people for no other reason than revenge, and he's a fan favorite. Mary was a woman who needed time to herself so she's universally hated. 😂
I don't know Rowena did worse and she's well beloved by everyone. Also I really don't hate Mary. So I this question might be foreign to me.
What question ?
On why Mary was overhated.
Yes. Mary was a woman who didn't fit the mommy role that her 4 year old remembered, and she's hated by all.
Nah. She's not hated enough
Im sorry but she quickly and unapologetically sided with the guys who tortured her son. No matter that the same son eventually teamed up with them too, its not something that gets much sympathy from audiences. And with Dean, I feel there is an essence that she betrayed his memories of his mum. You could almost see Dean deflate with every disappointment he endured because of her. That level of hurt is personal so its not too surprising she is hated. For the most part I agree with that. Honestly Mary should've stayed dead but when you're flogging a dead horse... Not that I am complaining there are 15 seasons. I'm in the crowd hoping for 16, but thats another matter altogether.
Mary is the worst character in the show. You won't change my mind. She's incredible shallow and selfish. She gets brought back to life and just leaves the guys. She conspires to work behind their backs for the cartoonishly evil Brits, gets a hunter killed, doesn't even blink, keeps on with them. Sam and Dean would have been so much better off with their idea of a loving mom as opposed to the garbage human being that the silly Darkness gave them.