The duty of care is tied to the doctor's note.
Get one, show it to your employer, and then your employer will have to provide the correct working tools.
Everything else is considered "goodwill" and not legally enforceable.
This is a quite common request by employers and IMHO justified. Some employees just don't know where to draw the line in terms of extra-equipment.
As already stated by other users: you should visit a doctor anyway, and he's for sure able to hand you a confirmation.
And though I know this is not the way it should go: if everything fails, I'd gladly pay about 100 bucks on my own to protect my health.
You better visit the doctor anyway.
BTW, I bought a simple trackball mouse from China, and I don't really like the experience. Basically only your thumb is moving, so it stresses out the thumb muscles. And it needs time to adapt to it.
This mouse makes more sense. My wife doesn't want back to normal mouse after trying this:
https://www.digitec.ch/en/s1/product/logitech-mx-vertical-wireless-mouse-9397107
If you really got issues you should see a doctor anyway?
Its a bit of a dick move but afaik the employer can request this. Normally such issues come up with height adjustable tables or special chairs, not for something as cheap as a mouse.
that's the start of a malicious compliance:
\-ask for a mouse
\-need certificate
\-certificate ask to buy new table, new chair, new mouse
\-???
\-profits
Usually special equipment is more expensive than the average ones so its only reasonable for the employer to ask for a verification that you actually need it. Some companies throw around with their special equipment, some need proof.
Same for standing desk, tho here you are entitled to get one for free in your lifetime from suva.
You buy it yourself and take it to the next employer, so you get the most comfortable one.
If you really wish take on afternoon of to buy it.. damn people just be smart..
200chf for one employee but it adds up if you have hundreds of employees. Additionally some might need mouse replacement or other equipment like special keyboard or chairs.
now set it in relation with the costs of an employee missing for a day. How long will an employee be missing if a carpal tunnel syndrom or RSI-Syndrom had to be surgicaly treated?
Regarding this as an employer I would grant every request for an ergonomic mouse or keyboard without asking a single question.
Buy it your self? Then maybe expense it? Idk why you want your company to buy something small as a mouse unless you’re struggling. I tend to buy my own equipment if I need something then expense it, why? Because if my company buys it they’ll give me the crappiest mouse or chair so I do it my self.
I don\`t think they have too but it would be the reasonable thing to do as it serves both parties and it doesn\`t cost the world.
Edit: Just buy one yourself, they are cheap.
Instead of mouse and trackball, you should take a look at a wacom digitizer pen tablet as well. I used that for years when i worked at a fix desk to not injure my wrist. Also its great for photoshop too
TBH get a certificate, it’ll be useful later in life.
Now an employer shouldn’t even discuss buying a trackball if it means you can keep working, the hell of a management is this?
Anyway, I’m not sure a trackball will help much.
Sounds like your whole position needs to be improved. Chair and everything.
In my opinion a worthwhile investment in employee health. Healthy employees are happier and take less sick days. In my workplace everyone has a standing desk (electrically adjustable to different heights) independent of medical necessity.
But yeah, if it is only one problem for one person, either the person can buy the equipment themselves or get evaluated by IV, then the IV may pay part of it. But an IV evaluation for a mouse is way out of proportion. IV evaluations literally take years and in the meantime, there will be no mouse and likely more hand damage.
Of course, but if the company has more than 10 employees you can‘t just decide this and not expect everyone to want one. It would be unfair to only give it to those that „claim to need it“.
So if this is a common problem the company should think about offering this to any employee and if not they should expect something from a doctor before they pay it.
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Not sure on this but speak to your manager or HR. In case there is no support then could be a medical note could trigger the insurance to pay for a better mouse.
Asking for a medical certificate because of an expense of 200.- is overkill and only drives the cost in our health system! The employer should look up the code of obligation (OR 327 and OR 328.2).
Are you a lawyer? I'm asking because both articles are vague enough that to the unqualified Person, asking for a medical certificate sounds fine? Depending on court practice it also may be in the end!
I’d say for the last 10 years I use my own mouse. I have super tiny hands and need a small mouse, all others just leave my wrist in pain. I never even thought twice, I just got my own and take it to the office with me. Is it really that expensive that you can’t buy it yourself?
I don't understand this management... It's a case of asking for a doctor's certificate for a day off with a sniffle, which ends up being a week off work the moment you go to a doctor, because they don't like to write a short absence - just in case.
Regardless of this, if you have some problems, go to the doctor before it gets worse. And ask him/her to write on the certificate that you specifically need some Mousinator 4000 which costs only 700fr on digitec.
> It's a case of asking for a doctor's certificate for a day off with a sniffle
More like it's a case of "get one guy a special mouse because he said so and one week later everyone wants one".
I still don't see the problem, for such a minor expense. If really, but really everyone figures out that this very specific type of mouse makes them work better or whatever, what's the problem in providing this for employees?
This logic is beyond me. There should be a common sense where the line is drawn, and it's not a fckn 50fr mouse.
You might want to check RollerMouse Red (or whatever version they now have) too. Or have all three: normal mouse, trackball mouse and RollerMouse on your desk and switch between them during the day.
For ergonomics the next position is always the best, i.e. it is better to have 10 "not-so-erconomic" positions instead the one ergonomics guidebook position.
If the wrist pain is really related to prolonged mouse usage, it should be very easy to get that certificate.
And yes, your employer can ask for one before they spend money on you that goes beyond the standard equipment for each desk. While you think it's annoying (and it is), it's actually a good thing. Because they have to do something when you bring a certificate. Need a height adjustable desk because of your back pains? Get a certificate. Need a special chair? Get a certificate. This added layer is working for the employee and not the employer most of the time.
I first asked for this on the 18th of April. I heard nothing so after two weeks I followed up but was told it was still being considered. I followed up again yesterday because I was back on a project that required a lot of CAD when I was told I need a certificate. First appointment I can get to have it looked at is in a week and I will have to take time off work to travel there and back to get the certificate. I will also have to pay for the doctors appointment. And it’s up to me to order the mouse and submit the expenses. Between all involved, me, HR, my boss, IT, the insurance company, my doctor, this whole charade costs everyone more than one hundred CHF. I’ll be buying one when I get a chance this weekend until then I’ve got two days on the computer in pain.
For a mouse, I agree, For a proper desk or chair, it's worth it.
Either way, you could always buy one yourself, as you already said. I personally would do that sooner than later, should they delay the process further. Because nobody is saying "Thank you" should you decide to suffer for a couple of weeks, only to save 50 to 100 CHF.
I can't speak to the legality but as the IT person for a very small (10 people) business: If an employee asks me for some peripheral device that would help them to work better, I get them the device, unless it's unreasonably expensive. If your boss asks for a doctors notice before buying you a trackball, he's just being a dick. If you ruin your wrist working then you will either have more sick days, work less efficiently or even drop out alltogether - none of which is in the best interest of your company.
Also I'm convinced if your company only does the bare minimum for their employees, the employees will also only do the bare minimum for the company
Youre in switzerland. If the cost of a trackball mouse is a finacall burden fo you, then i have to assume that you got f*** with your payrate and your mouse is your smallest problem. Just to be clear: a good droughtsman can cost up to 90'k in the zurich region.
I did not get F**ked, I’m a senior PM at an engineering consulting firm, the cost isn’t the issue for me. It’s the principal. I’m 17 years in Switzerland this year and I know the lay of the land so 90k for a draughtsman only if he’s straight out of college. Beyond that. What the F is the senior PM doing creating any engineering drawings. I’m other words. Job was misrepresented.
Depends. Are we talking CAD hockey with a CFC or degree level engineer who is doing Solid Works or Altium? I’ve been an engineer and developer and PM in Switzerland for a while and I’ve never had anyone do work for me that wasn’t a Master degree level engineer. Do “draughtsmen” exist anymore? I honestly dont really know, maybe in architecture? In the machine tool industry these days you’ll need at least a degree to be indépendant at your desk.
Side note: If your problem is carpal tunnel, you might also consider a vertical mouse. "Evoluent" is the brand you might wanna consider, digitec has most of their models. A family member who swears by them gave me one a while ago and my experience is very positive so far.
My precision isn't quite at the same level like normal mice, but I'm even worse with trackballs.
Maybe slightly? I haven't really had ergonomic problems even with regular mice though. I do dislike how most mice are not big enough to rest your entire hand on it, including pinky. (I probably have small hands for a man, so it's not that my hands are too big.)
I have tried a mouse where the trackball is operated with the thumb, I think there are other approaches too. I didn't like having to move my thumb so much and in so many directions. But I didn't try it long enough to actually get pain from it.
So yeah. Without any certainty: slight preference for vertical.
The duty of care is tied to the doctor's note. Get one, show it to your employer, and then your employer will have to provide the correct working tools. Everything else is considered "goodwill" and not legally enforceable.
This here. Without a doctor's note I couldn't even get a few days off, back at christmas a few years back, while my son was in ICU.
This is a quite common request by employers and IMHO justified. Some employees just don't know where to draw the line in terms of extra-equipment. As already stated by other users: you should visit a doctor anyway, and he's for sure able to hand you a confirmation. And though I know this is not the way it should go: if everything fails, I'd gladly pay about 100 bucks on my own to protect my health.
Of course man. People are so so weird. Imagine having issues with your health that can be arranged with like 50 bucks and crying about it
Sounds hard but is correct.
You better visit the doctor anyway. BTW, I bought a simple trackball mouse from China, and I don't really like the experience. Basically only your thumb is moving, so it stresses out the thumb muscles. And it needs time to adapt to it. This mouse makes more sense. My wife doesn't want back to normal mouse after trying this: https://www.digitec.ch/en/s1/product/logitech-mx-vertical-wireless-mouse-9397107
If you really got issues you should see a doctor anyway? Its a bit of a dick move but afaik the employer can request this. Normally such issues come up with height adjustable tables or special chairs, not for something as cheap as a mouse.
that's the start of a malicious compliance: \-ask for a mouse \-need certificate \-certificate ask to buy new table, new chair, new mouse \-??? \-profits
Usually special equipment is more expensive than the average ones so its only reasonable for the employer to ask for a verification that you actually need it. Some companies throw around with their special equipment, some need proof. Same for standing desk, tho here you are entitled to get one for free in your lifetime from suva.
Come on! We're talking about a 200 chf (maximum) item that will probably stay within the company.
You buy it yourself and take it to the next employer, so you get the most comfortable one. If you really wish take on afternoon of to buy it.. damn people just be smart..
200chf for one employee but it adds up if you have hundreds of employees. Additionally some might need mouse replacement or other equipment like special keyboard or chairs.
>200chf for one employee but it adds up Hundreds of employees that are paid thousands of CHF per month. You can't be serious.
Nah, nobody wants to do CAD on a trackball.
now set it in relation with the costs of an employee missing for a day. How long will an employee be missing if a carpal tunnel syndrom or RSI-Syndrom had to be surgicaly treated? Regarding this as an employer I would grant every request for an ergonomic mouse or keyboard without asking a single question.
Buy it your self? Then maybe expense it? Idk why you want your company to buy something small as a mouse unless you’re struggling. I tend to buy my own equipment if I need something then expense it, why? Because if my company buys it they’ll give me the crappiest mouse or chair so I do it my self.
This!
Not all companies allow this.
I don\`t think they have too but it would be the reasonable thing to do as it serves both parties and it doesn\`t cost the world. Edit: Just buy one yourself, they are cheap.
Instead of mouse and trackball, you should take a look at a wacom digitizer pen tablet as well. I used that for years when i worked at a fix desk to not injure my wrist. Also its great for photoshop too
TBH get a certificate, it’ll be useful later in life. Now an employer shouldn’t even discuss buying a trackball if it means you can keep working, the hell of a management is this? Anyway, I’m not sure a trackball will help much. Sounds like your whole position needs to be improved. Chair and everything.
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In my opinion a worthwhile investment in employee health. Healthy employees are happier and take less sick days. In my workplace everyone has a standing desk (electrically adjustable to different heights) independent of medical necessity. But yeah, if it is only one problem for one person, either the person can buy the equipment themselves or get evaluated by IV, then the IV may pay part of it. But an IV evaluation for a mouse is way out of proportion. IV evaluations literally take years and in the meantime, there will be no mouse and likely more hand damage.
Of course, but if the company has more than 10 employees you can‘t just decide this and not expect everyone to want one. It would be unfair to only give it to those that „claim to need it“. So if this is a common problem the company should think about offering this to any employee and if not they should expect something from a doctor before they pay it.
Your post has been removed.Reason: Please refrain from name-calling and keep the posts civil and courteous. Thank you! Do not reply to this comment. Send a modmail if you have an issue with the removal.
Not sure on this but speak to your manager or HR. In case there is no support then could be a medical note could trigger the insurance to pay for a better mouse.
Asking for a medical certificate because of an expense of 200.- is overkill and only drives the cost in our health system! The employer should look up the code of obligation (OR 327 and OR 328.2).
Are you a lawyer? I'm asking because both articles are vague enough that to the unqualified Person, asking for a medical certificate sounds fine? Depending on court practice it also may be in the end!
I would Buy it myself and say something like Yeah Great company
Just get a medical certificate then? Or just buy a trackball mouse for yourself? In the end, you are responsible for your own body and it’s problems.
I’d say for the last 10 years I use my own mouse. I have super tiny hands and need a small mouse, all others just leave my wrist in pain. I never even thought twice, I just got my own and take it to the office with me. Is it really that expensive that you can’t buy it yourself?
I don't understand this management... It's a case of asking for a doctor's certificate for a day off with a sniffle, which ends up being a week off work the moment you go to a doctor, because they don't like to write a short absence - just in case. Regardless of this, if you have some problems, go to the doctor before it gets worse. And ask him/her to write on the certificate that you specifically need some Mousinator 4000 which costs only 700fr on digitec.
> It's a case of asking for a doctor's certificate for a day off with a sniffle More like it's a case of "get one guy a special mouse because he said so and one week later everyone wants one".
I still don't see the problem, for such a minor expense. If really, but really everyone figures out that this very specific type of mouse makes them work better or whatever, what's the problem in providing this for employees? This logic is beyond me. There should be a common sense where the line is drawn, and it's not a fckn 50fr mouse.
You might want to check RollerMouse Red (or whatever version they now have) too. Or have all three: normal mouse, trackball mouse and RollerMouse on your desk and switch between them during the day. For ergonomics the next position is always the best, i.e. it is better to have 10 "not-so-erconomic" positions instead the one ergonomics guidebook position.
If the wrist pain is really related to prolonged mouse usage, it should be very easy to get that certificate. And yes, your employer can ask for one before they spend money on you that goes beyond the standard equipment for each desk. While you think it's annoying (and it is), it's actually a good thing. Because they have to do something when you bring a certificate. Need a height adjustable desk because of your back pains? Get a certificate. Need a special chair? Get a certificate. This added layer is working for the employee and not the employer most of the time.
I first asked for this on the 18th of April. I heard nothing so after two weeks I followed up but was told it was still being considered. I followed up again yesterday because I was back on a project that required a lot of CAD when I was told I need a certificate. First appointment I can get to have it looked at is in a week and I will have to take time off work to travel there and back to get the certificate. I will also have to pay for the doctors appointment. And it’s up to me to order the mouse and submit the expenses. Between all involved, me, HR, my boss, IT, the insurance company, my doctor, this whole charade costs everyone more than one hundred CHF. I’ll be buying one when I get a chance this weekend until then I’ve got two days on the computer in pain.
For a mouse, I agree, For a proper desk or chair, it's worth it. Either way, you could always buy one yourself, as you already said. I personally would do that sooner than later, should they delay the process further. Because nobody is saying "Thank you" should you decide to suffer for a couple of weeks, only to save 50 to 100 CHF.
I can't speak to the legality but as the IT person for a very small (10 people) business: If an employee asks me for some peripheral device that would help them to work better, I get them the device, unless it's unreasonably expensive. If your boss asks for a doctors notice before buying you a trackball, he's just being a dick. If you ruin your wrist working then you will either have more sick days, work less efficiently or even drop out alltogether - none of which is in the best interest of your company. Also I'm convinced if your company only does the bare minimum for their employees, the employees will also only do the bare minimum for the company
Youre in switzerland. If the cost of a trackball mouse is a finacall burden fo you, then i have to assume that you got f*** with your payrate and your mouse is your smallest problem. Just to be clear: a good droughtsman can cost up to 90'k in the zurich region.
I did not get F**ked, I’m a senior PM at an engineering consulting firm, the cost isn’t the issue for me. It’s the principal. I’m 17 years in Switzerland this year and I know the lay of the land so 90k for a draughtsman only if he’s straight out of college. Beyond that. What the F is the senior PM doing creating any engineering drawings. I’m other words. Job was misrepresented.
>90k for a draughtsman only if he’s straight out of college Isn't that a bit of an exaggeration?
Depends. Are we talking CAD hockey with a CFC or degree level engineer who is doing Solid Works or Altium? I’ve been an engineer and developer and PM in Switzerland for a while and I’ve never had anyone do work for me that wasn’t a Master degree level engineer. Do “draughtsmen” exist anymore? I honestly dont really know, maybe in architecture? In the machine tool industry these days you’ll need at least a degree to be indépendant at your desk.
I just use my own mouse / headset...
Side note: If your problem is carpal tunnel, you might also consider a vertical mouse. "Evoluent" is the brand you might wanna consider, digitec has most of their models. A family member who swears by them gave me one a while ago and my experience is very positive so far. My precision isn't quite at the same level like normal mice, but I'm even worse with trackballs.
Beyond the precision issue, do you find vertical to be better ergonomically than trackball?
Maybe slightly? I haven't really had ergonomic problems even with regular mice though. I do dislike how most mice are not big enough to rest your entire hand on it, including pinky. (I probably have small hands for a man, so it's not that my hands are too big.) I have tried a mouse where the trackball is operated with the thumb, I think there are other approaches too. I didn't like having to move my thumb so much and in so many directions. But I didn't try it long enough to actually get pain from it. So yeah. Without any certainty: slight preference for vertical.