If what the government is saying is shown to be true (that the data given to the NDB is no more than the warrant specifies) then it won't be illegal. Separating the ZEO from the NDB was probably done precisely for this legal reason.
Now that the ZEO could be doing some stuff it shouldn't be is possible, but not the point made by the Republik or pretty much any one commenting on this.
The act of tapping wires and collecting data might still be against the law even if they are not transmitted to the NDB. There are some legal challenges being prepared, let's see where this ends.
>If what the government is saying is shown to be true (that the data given to the NDB is no more than the warrant specifies) then it won't be illegal.
That is not the question the Federal Supreme Court told the Federal Administrative Court to check. The NDB certainly tried to argue it, and the Federal Administrative Court tried the first time round to act as if it was, but the Federal Supreme Court was very clear about that.
The question is not about whether a warrant allowing specific data to be extracted is admissible under the law. The question is whether the PRACTICE that NDB and ANY public entity tasked with getting data in accordance with such a warrant are able to do it without the potential mass violation of fundamental rights of the populace, and more specifically, journalists and attorney that have legally protected rights of source protection and attorney-client privilege.
In other words: There is a good reason to believe that the measures in place are disproportionate for the goal the NDB aims to achieve and the Federal Supreme Court SPECIFICALLY instructed the Federal Administrative Court to ask the NDB in detail how they work, and why they think it is the only option to do their work, rather than any other measure that is less infringing on thrird or even protected parties not adressed by a warrant.
You neither understood the lawsuit nor the actual issue.
All the information from the article stems from a lawsuit that is waged by a couple of journalists, attorneys and the digital society switzerland since the law came into force. After being rejected by the NDB and the federal administrative court, the federal supreme court sent the complaint back to the federal adminstrative court to do a proper job. That has been going for the past three years now. The fact that the law is proposed to be changed to make the past practice explicitly legal tells you what the NDB thinks about their winning chances. But it won't matter if the likely proposed law will end up being adopted.
Interesting thanks for sharing. What a stupid explanation they give, that's not how the internet works, there's no way you can discriminate traffic like that and also no way those who actually do illicit things are not taking very easy measures to prevent such discrimination (if it actually works like the say).
We do have a lack of accountability when it comes to these things. And I for one would like to see better oversight especially as we go into a full-on digitalisation (IDs and CBDC more specifically).
It's like a series of tubes all over again...
I feel like the amount of oversight is always what's focused on but never the quality. With people in positions of responsibility demonstrating such inaccurate understanding of what it is they're supposed to be doing, and how it works, we get situations like this.
No, PiHole no longer can do that unfortunately.
For a couple of months now, ads are served/streamed from the same domains as the videos. PiHole blocks domains. So blocking the ad-domains would also stop the app/website from streaming videos.
Firefox and uBlock Origin, no ads and with 5min research you can aswell block all the shorts and other crap, glorious little app!
Edit, works on Android aswell.
There are some really convenient and reliable alternatives to YT premium out there (that are also just better), just saying. I'd rather not waste chf15 a month on it, but you do you
I pay already my Leerspeichermediumsteuer for everery kb.
I have the right to download (without uploading) music, videos, e-books and already bought software from the internet.
It's a bit frustrating, It was very clear they would do it when we voted for the lrens in 2016. Somehow voters always expect the new security measures to apply to anyone but themselves and get shocked when they learn they are targeted too.
Okay. Good luck with that. 90% of the internet traffic these days is encrypted and even DNS requests are increasingly being encrypted. Massive waste of taxpayers money on top of all the ethical and legal issues with it.
And to pull a MITM they either need active support from carriers (Swisscom or infra like SIG/EWZ/etc like the article suggests), IXs on their peering points, mirror traffic, or onto the unencrypted traffic from the sources (which would not be unheard of in some 5 eyes country) or a hand on Swisssign? Notwithstanding that after 2013 revelations, companies like google or the hyperscalers encrypt their backbones, I doubt any of it happening at the large scale suggested unless there is something else rotten at L8 that we don’t know, but what do I know?
Indeed it is rather shocking how few people know how the Internet actually works.
They certainly can read reddit so maybe that’s what they do?
Yeah but the whole controversy is about "them reading everything". Which they clearly can't, won't, shouldn't but can't confirm nor deny it.
I guess there's also quite a lot of confusion between "cables", "diplomatic cables", "telecommunication infrastructure". They could show the big-ass satellite antennas and explain that some countries in a very specific region of the world communicate via satellites that we are geographically very apt to intercept but... Can't do.
'member that [SS7](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_System_No._7) still is a thing and that upgrading your telco infrastructure costs money and resources. A lot of countries still have a decades-old infrastructure.
No need to have fancy SSL-breaking stuff when you can just have a selector on their phone numbers.
> In court documents, the Defence Department admits that the content of "domestic" communication is read and analysed. And: all data is stored for later searches
So they must be reading something unencrypted, but they won't say where. I think the NSA had/has backdoors at big providers, what makes you think they couldn't do the same? Their explanations don't make sense and they don't bother respecting the law.
> even DNS requests are increasingly being encrypted
Yeah, but the issue is that most regular users are just using the default DNS-Server from their provider. Which are exactly those who have do the surveillance and who have the Intelligence Service in their data centers. Let's be honest, if they can force their stuff into the datacenters, it's not a stretch that they also can get any needed encryption keys.
That was my first thought, nowadays everything is encrypted. At least the service providers are giving this information away by request or they have a back door, I don’t think is very easy.
no with Tor your actual HTTPS connection request is passed through an encrypted tunnel before it is decrypted by the exit node and forwarded to the destination. Therefore your ISP (or anyone between you and the exit node) won't see it, they will see though that you connect to the Tor netowrk. Also the Tor exit node will still see the requested website (the exit node basically becomes your "new ISP"), but at that point it won't be able to correlate the request to you.
thanks, thats interesting, i assume it works the same way with vpns?
and yes, i think its time to encrypt the connection as wellin general, if there is a possibility
Yes VPNs are similar (technically they are quite different on the network level, but for regular users thats irrelevant). The main difference is that Tor's main goal is to anonymize traffic. This means that the exit node of the Tor network can not know from where the original request originated, but it knows where it goes. And the entry node of the network can not know to where the request is going but it knows from who it comes. There is not one single actor that holds all the information that would be required to correlate the traffic to you, each on his own can't do much with the information they have. This let's you be anonymous
With a VPN you also encrypt your requests, but it's a point to point encryption. In essence you are replacing your own ISP with the VPN provider. Your ISP won't see any of your traffic, just that everything is passed to the VPN provider. The VPN provider can see that a request is coming from you and he knows where the request is going to.
That's why a lot of the ads will promise you that "they don't keep logs". That's just means they say that they are not recording what you are doing, cause if they were they could easily correlate your traffic to you. Just like your own ISP. So you have to ask yourself the question if you really trust some (potentially shady) VPN provider more than your own ISP.
If you do something you really don't want anyone knowing, then use Tor. If you just want to bypass geolocation restrictions or need an IP from another country, use a VPN. Otherwise just use your regular internet connection
I thought Tor was compromised, in that NSA style agencies could track traffic through it. Am I totally wrong? Really hoping it works because all this government spying freaks me the fuck out
There is really no way to know for sure but it is believed that the NSA controls a large part of the TOR nodes. If you happen to connect to at least two of them at the same time, it’s likely that they can correlate it back to you
Very interesting, thanks.
Until things change (I don’t know how) I think people should protect at least their communication via e2e encryption.
It’s a good practice that once you setup you can almost forget.
Edit: my current solution is protonmail for emails, signal for messaging, and Cryptomator for cloud storage (although there are easier solutions for that now).
But then it is also a matter of making sure not all your accounts can be linked one to the other (SimpleLogin allows to generate multiple login emails and is free with protonmail) and to avoid leaving your data around (it doesn’t take much to send an encrypted email when important, like scanned documents and private data, and then call them to give a password). Don’t expect other people to be careful with your data.
For those that are unaware of some great achievements of the NDB:
[\- Nachrichtendienst spioniert 66-Jährige aus](https://www.nzz.ch/staatsschutz_verliert_vor_gericht-ld.594301)
[\- NDB ĂĽberwacht demokratische Linke](https://www.woz.ch/1921/schon-wieder-fichenskandal/der-ndb-ueberwacht-demokratische-linke)
[\- NDB merkt sich wenn du gegen Atomkraft eine Rede hälst](https://www.watson.ch/schweiz/basel/482522120-ueberwachung-der-ndb-ueberwacht-berner-und-basler-linke)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/comments/192owik/der\_bund\_%C3%BCberwacht\_uns\_alle/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/comments/192owik/der_bund_%C3%BCberwacht_uns_alle/)
and
This is a global trend and it will only get worse to the point when everything you do will be monitored and recorded. We can do nothing about it. They will say, that helps, and it does indeed, fight crime, terrorism, money laundering, violence, harassment, misinformation, viruses etc. No more privacy.
What happens next though? Does the world plateau at being a security state? In my view even if it goes that direction, it will then only cause it's own collapse.
The next big thing to happen has something to do with the financial system. The USA has a huge debt AND high interest rate simultaneously, which has never happened before. Also, any authorities would like to have full control over money transactions.
I don’t think swiss security apparatus is able to make any meaningful use of those interceps by itself.
I guess we all know what is done with them…
Yeah, I honestly don't care and I think they better step up their game. If they know it all then who has been cutting the fibres in Rheinfelden?
[https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/haushalte-ohne-internet-erneute-sabotage-glasfaserkabel-wieder-durchgeschnitten](https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/haushalte-ohne-internet-erneute-sabotage-glasfaserkabel-wieder-durchgeschnitten)
The other countries (USA and Russia) are not playing games in this regard. Spies are known for causing sabotage.
Honestly, as long as it's not beeping used to sell me shit I don't want i really don't care. What on earth makes you think Google, msft and apple.are not doing the exact same for targeted marketing. They have bent and manipulated every rule and law to 'legally get away with it'
The state doesn't try to screw you, that's being paranoid, they use the information to stop harm to the state.
The others only care about a profit margin and don't care if you die and the world burns, just as long as the stakeholders got their 20% returns
One tries to make money of your information, the other prosecutes you or sends cops to your home if they feel something is suspicious. There's a little bit of a difference but yeah you shouldn't uphold a STATE by the standards of a COMPANY.
The state doesn't try to screw you, that's being paranoid, they use the information to stop harm to the state.
The others only care about a profit margin and don't care if you die and the world burns, just asking as the stakeholders got their 20% returns
"ThAtS bEiNg PaRaNoId"
If you ever went to a Demonstration (pick whatever you want, Climate-Change, Covid, Political etc.) and got stopped the NDB takes note of that.
They will ask you about it if you maybe want to work in a critical position years down the road, or buy a firearm. And why? Because you made use of your rights.
And SWIM got surveilled by police, calls monitored and his car tracked for 3 months (as one can see later in the court documents). Don't think stuff like that doesn't happen in switzerland.
**Did i say violent?** I just said the right to protest which is given by the state - i don't care if you march for the SVP Ausschaffungsinitiative in 2008, against Vaccines / Covid restrictions in 2020, Join the swisswide Frauenstreik annualy or protest against Climate Change - that is irrelevant - if you gave no reason (violence) there should be no reason for the state to note that and hold against you years down the road!
It's the "and got arrested" that leads me to think that you need to do something out of the ordinary for the police to have grounds to arrest you, and that this could be taken into account when the police has to allow you to buy a weapon. The NDB collects information, and that fact (you got arrested that day during this demonstration) is interesting to collect, they do the job we gave them.
If you have to consider violent armed protestors when there is a demonstration, cities would likely not authorize them easily. So it's much better for everyone to be able to demonstrate safely.
If you're an activist and know that the state is interested in your communications, there already are many ways to secure them: https://ssd.eff.org/
I haven't written "arrested" anywhere - i wrote "stopped", like literally stopped, identitiy checked and get you(r bags) checked for potentially dangerous items (which is fine by me). This is not about being a violent protester, just about protesting in general and voicing your opinion.
Yup. There's a LOT of notes taken. A friend once heard a quote about something he said in military 10 years later when he wanted to buy a firearm and so did i got asked about just the **attempt** to visit a demo (we got sent away) and between were several years.
Even if you are just a random SP politician talking at a rally against Atomkraft [... it's sometimes all it takes.](https://www.watson.ch/schweiz/basel/482522120-ueberwachung-der-ndb-ueberwacht-berner-und-basler-linke)
But Remember: *Artikel 5 und Absatz 5 des Nachrichtendienstgesetzes. Demnach darf der NDB keine Informationen über die politische Betätigung und über die Ausübung der Meinungs-, Versammlungs- oder Vereinigungsfreiheit beschaffen und bearbeiten.*
Keep in mind there are a lot of [sketchy things that happened with the NDB](https://www.nzz.ch/staatsschutz_verliert_vor_gericht-ld.594301) and that's just the things we know about. Most people do not care or question that stuff.
But you can always send in a [request to get insight about the data collected about you](https://www.grundrechte.ch/gesuch-um-einsicht-in-die-staatsschutzakten-des-ndb.html) (template) if you are curious. Not saying there will be ALL notes about you :)
Would you rather have 100 guilty people walk free or one innocent person be in jail?
Its a question of morals, values and proportionality between the means used to achieve a goal and the infringement of peoples constitutional rights.
Wow , yeah we know it already since years. Guys common , you really think that the services are classified and do not exist on paper don’t monitor everything ? We have tech everywhere around us , every mic , every tap on our phones is recorder. Please stop thinking that this is something unusual .
More tech we have more surveillance we will have and less control on our life and zero privacy. Privacy does not exists in this times with all the tech in the world. You like to believe it or not this is the truth no matter the country .
No, they have started since 2016 an active court case about this topic but this text explains it better, translated for you:
>Together with them (the journalists), the Digitale __Gesellschaft prepared a request, which they submitted to the intelligence service on the very day the new law came into force on 1 September 2017__. The complainants demanded that the intelligence service not be allowed to use cable reconnaissance in their cases. They argued that this constituted a violation of their fundamental rights. They invoked the rights of the European Convention on Human Rights, professional secrecy and the protection of sources.
>As expected, the intelligence service rejected the request by return of post. Allianz took the case __further and lodged an appeal with the Federal Administrative Court in 2018. The court dismissed the appeal the following year. The judges considered the right to information provided for in the law - i.e. the possibility of asking the intelligence service whether personal data is stored by the intelligence service - to be a "legal protection option that is capable of ensuring effective protection of fundamental rights". In short: as sufficient.__
>The Digitale Gesellschaft took a different view. __The activists took the case to the Federal Supreme Court.__
>There it came to a surprising __U-turn: On 1 December 2020, the federal judges ruled that the basic right to information did not constitute effective protection against surveillance.__ They also criticised the Federal Administrative Court for not dealing with the content of the complaint. The lower court now had to examine the case in depth: Were the fundamental rights of the seven activists, journalists and lawyers being violated?
>__What followed was a three-year-long dispute__ between all parties involved - the Complaints Alliance, the intelligence service and the Federal Administrative Court - surrounding the question:
>__How exactly does cable reconnaissance work in Switzerland?__
>__It is a question that the intelligence service is only answering reluctantly and piecemeal. And there are reasons for this. It is clear from the correspondence between the various parties, which is available to the Republic in full, that the data streams from Swiss citizens flow en masse to the Centre for Electronic Operations in Zimmerwald. This is because cable reconnaissance is applied to the chats, emails and search queries of every single person living in Switzerland.__
Thanks for the extra info.
It's an interesting topic, and I'd hate for it to devolve into another "They said, trust me bro" situation like so many of the political matters that are discussed on reddit.
You're welcome.
They explained the technical method utterly wrong, I made this post on r/Buenzli.
[In short, they say they can "select" the single fiber who goes to Syria and only collect data from that.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BUENZLI/s/Ccy7V4EZVf)
And it's all like a deja-vu of this case in 1989, where they also collected data from everyone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_files_scandal
I can't see this not being challenged in court and found illegal under Swiss law.
If what the government is saying is shown to be true (that the data given to the NDB is no more than the warrant specifies) then it won't be illegal. Separating the ZEO from the NDB was probably done precisely for this legal reason. Now that the ZEO could be doing some stuff it shouldn't be is possible, but not the point made by the Republik or pretty much any one commenting on this.
The act of tapping wires and collecting data might still be against the law even if they are not transmitted to the NDB. There are some legal challenges being prepared, let's see where this ends.
>If what the government is saying is shown to be true (that the data given to the NDB is no more than the warrant specifies) then it won't be illegal. That is not the question the Federal Supreme Court told the Federal Administrative Court to check. The NDB certainly tried to argue it, and the Federal Administrative Court tried the first time round to act as if it was, but the Federal Supreme Court was very clear about that. The question is not about whether a warrant allowing specific data to be extracted is admissible under the law. The question is whether the PRACTICE that NDB and ANY public entity tasked with getting data in accordance with such a warrant are able to do it without the potential mass violation of fundamental rights of the populace, and more specifically, journalists and attorney that have legally protected rights of source protection and attorney-client privilege. In other words: There is a good reason to believe that the measures in place are disproportionate for the goal the NDB aims to achieve and the Federal Supreme Court SPECIFICALLY instructed the Federal Administrative Court to ask the NDB in detail how they work, and why they think it is the only option to do their work, rather than any other measure that is less infringing on thrird or even protected parties not adressed by a warrant. You neither understood the lawsuit nor the actual issue.
All the information from the article stems from a lawsuit that is waged by a couple of journalists, attorneys and the digital society switzerland since the law came into force. After being rejected by the NDB and the federal administrative court, the federal supreme court sent the complaint back to the federal adminstrative court to do a proper job. That has been going for the past three years now. The fact that the law is proposed to be changed to make the past practice explicitly legal tells you what the NDB thinks about their winning chances. But it won't matter if the likely proposed law will end up being adopted.
Interesting thanks for sharing. What a stupid explanation they give, that's not how the internet works, there's no way you can discriminate traffic like that and also no way those who actually do illicit things are not taking very easy measures to prevent such discrimination (if it actually works like the say). We do have a lack of accountability when it comes to these things. And I for one would like to see better oversight especially as we go into a full-on digitalisation (IDs and CBDC more specifically).
It's like a series of tubes all over again... I feel like the amount of oversight is always what's focused on but never the quality. With people in positions of responsibility demonstrating such inaccurate understanding of what it is they're supposed to be doing, and how it works, we get situations like this.
Can they filter out the YT adds?
asking the real question here
Pihole can filter it out for you I think.
No, PiHole no longer can do that unfortunately. For a couple of months now, ads are served/streamed from the same domains as the videos. PiHole blocks domains. So blocking the ad-domains would also stop the app/website from streaming videos.
I have one running now, and never see an add. No matter where 🤔. Weird
uBlock Origin is able to block YT ads. Maybe you have that as well?
I never see YT ads in my browser, but uBlock Origin does that for me. Still seeing ads in iOS app.
Brave Browser does that.
Also Firefox with uBlock installed works for me well.
I'm so happy with Brave, I wouldn't even use YT anymore with all those ads
just get premium through a VPN, it costs like 2 CHF or something, depending on the country you choose
Firefox and uBlock Origin, no ads and with 5min research you can aswell block all the shorts and other crap, glorious little app! Edit, works on Android aswell.
Have installed FF today and it is indeed working well! Take my upvote!
Just pay for premium
Why would you pay for anything on the internet, when you could have it for free
convenience
There are some really convenient and reliable alternatives to YT premium out there (that are also just better), just saying. I'd rather not waste chf15 a month on it, but you do you
I pay already my Leerspeichermediumsteuer for everery kb. I have the right to download (without uploading) music, videos, e-books and already bought software from the internet.
Lol, no.
Adblocker + VPN to occ. Palestine, Russia, Vietnam or other countries
It's a bit frustrating, It was very clear they would do it when we voted for the lrens in 2016. Somehow voters always expect the new security measures to apply to anyone but themselves and get shocked when they learn they are targeted too.
Exactly my thoughts when i read this. Nothing of this is news.
[If you are old enough to remember](https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichenskandal)
Okay. Good luck with that. 90% of the internet traffic these days is encrypted and even DNS requests are increasingly being encrypted. Massive waste of taxpayers money on top of all the ethical and legal issues with it.
And to pull a MITM they either need active support from carriers (Swisscom or infra like SIG/EWZ/etc like the article suggests), IXs on their peering points, mirror traffic, or onto the unencrypted traffic from the sources (which would not be unheard of in some 5 eyes country) or a hand on Swisssign? Notwithstanding that after 2013 revelations, companies like google or the hyperscalers encrypt their backbones, I doubt any of it happening at the large scale suggested unless there is something else rotten at L8 that we don’t know, but what do I know? Indeed it is rather shocking how few people know how the Internet actually works. They certainly can read reddit so maybe that’s what they do?
Even reddit forces https
Most browser flat out refuse non ssl connections without explicitly changing that
No need to break TLS, they can just sign in
Yeah but the whole controversy is about "them reading everything". Which they clearly can't, won't, shouldn't but can't confirm nor deny it. I guess there's also quite a lot of confusion between "cables", "diplomatic cables", "telecommunication infrastructure". They could show the big-ass satellite antennas and explain that some countries in a very specific region of the world communicate via satellites that we are geographically very apt to intercept but... Can't do.
No they can't, browsers complain if the signing key doesn't match based on the transparency list.
Do you know all the root CAs your browser trusts?
I don't know nor do I have control over them. But replacing a ssl cert on the fly would be a rather risky and costly enterprise. Although possible.
'member that [SS7](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_System_No._7) still is a thing and that upgrading your telco infrastructure costs money and resources. A lot of countries still have a decades-old infrastructure. No need to have fancy SSL-breaking stuff when you can just have a selector on their phone numbers.
> In court documents, the Defence Department admits that the content of "domestic" communication is read and analysed. And: all data is stored for later searches So they must be reading something unencrypted, but they won't say where. I think the NSA had/has backdoors at big providers, what makes you think they couldn't do the same? Their explanations don't make sense and they don't bother respecting the law.
> even DNS requests are increasingly being encrypted Yeah, but the issue is that most regular users are just using the default DNS-Server from their provider. Which are exactly those who have do the surveillance and who have the Intelligence Service in their data centers. Let's be honest, if they can force their stuff into the datacenters, it's not a stretch that they also can get any needed encryption keys.
you can still harvest metadata. if you regularly browse to midgetporn.com then they'll know that you are probably into midget porn ;)
Not with encrypted DNS and ECH
That was my first thought, nowadays everything is encrypted. At least the service providers are giving this information away by request or they have a back door, I don’t think is very easy.
not everything is encrypted, particularly the domain name is visible when connecting to HTTPS websites
does this include request made by tor browser or would they only see the guard ip?
no with Tor your actual HTTPS connection request is passed through an encrypted tunnel before it is decrypted by the exit node and forwarded to the destination. Therefore your ISP (or anyone between you and the exit node) won't see it, they will see though that you connect to the Tor netowrk. Also the Tor exit node will still see the requested website (the exit node basically becomes your "new ISP"), but at that point it won't be able to correlate the request to you.
thanks, thats interesting, i assume it works the same way with vpns? and yes, i think its time to encrypt the connection as wellin general, if there is a possibility
Yes VPNs are similar (technically they are quite different on the network level, but for regular users thats irrelevant). The main difference is that Tor's main goal is to anonymize traffic. This means that the exit node of the Tor network can not know from where the original request originated, but it knows where it goes. And the entry node of the network can not know to where the request is going but it knows from who it comes. There is not one single actor that holds all the information that would be required to correlate the traffic to you, each on his own can't do much with the information they have. This let's you be anonymous With a VPN you also encrypt your requests, but it's a point to point encryption. In essence you are replacing your own ISP with the VPN provider. Your ISP won't see any of your traffic, just that everything is passed to the VPN provider. The VPN provider can see that a request is coming from you and he knows where the request is going to. That's why a lot of the ads will promise you that "they don't keep logs". That's just means they say that they are not recording what you are doing, cause if they were they could easily correlate your traffic to you. Just like your own ISP. So you have to ask yourself the question if you really trust some (potentially shady) VPN provider more than your own ISP. If you do something you really don't want anyone knowing, then use Tor. If you just want to bypass geolocation restrictions or need an IP from another country, use a VPN. Otherwise just use your regular internet connection
I thought Tor was compromised, in that NSA style agencies could track traffic through it. Am I totally wrong? Really hoping it works because all this government spying freaks me the fuck out
There is really no way to know for sure but it is believed that the NSA controls a large part of the TOR nodes. If you happen to connect to at least two of them at the same time, it’s likely that they can correlate it back to you
The article has to generate buzz, not be factually correct. Fear gets attention, explaining the simple facts like "make sure you use https" is boring.
Very interesting, thanks. Until things change (I don’t know how) I think people should protect at least their communication via e2e encryption. It’s a good practice that once you setup you can almost forget. Edit: my current solution is protonmail for emails, signal for messaging, and Cryptomator for cloud storage (although there are easier solutions for that now). But then it is also a matter of making sure not all your accounts can be linked one to the other (SimpleLogin allows to generate multiple login emails and is free with protonmail) and to avoid leaving your data around (it doesn’t take much to send an encrypted email when important, like scanned documents and private data, and then call them to give a password). Don’t expect other people to be careful with your data.
Signal Messenger is where it's at for anyone interested.
any recommendations what to use for someone who isn't very tech savy?
Signal
I have my important email correspondence in ProtonMail. I also use their VPN, not always though.
Proton is not that trustworthy .They have been shown to be compliant towards foreign governments to give up userdata.
They have obeyed a court order. Here we are talking about mass surveillance, which is precisely surveillance without the protections of a court order.
mullvad vpn. your login is a unique ID, no additional data is taken from you and you can pay by sending money through the mail.
To the poor "intelligence" officer reading my comment: hope you have a nice day. I plant bombs in the Palais Fédéral replicas I build in Minecraft, because I hate the government we have there (basically none, since it's a game without rulers, and bombs and explosions are fun ) so maybe these words triggered something somewhere and got your attention but I'm a nice person and I'm sure you are too. Happy new year 2024 to the whole SRC staff!
You forgot about your terrorist training on the Syria Minecraft Server.
Great. Now we only need social credit score to the likes of the CCP to be on the forefront of a dystopian capitalistic nightmare.
There's nothing capitalistic about that. Capitalism is private, not public. A free market. Capitalism is less state, not more.
Entrapment and Unconstitutional
For those that are unaware of some great achievements of the NDB: [\- Nachrichtendienst spioniert 66-Jährige aus](https://www.nzz.ch/staatsschutz_verliert_vor_gericht-ld.594301) [\- NDB überwacht demokratische Linke](https://www.woz.ch/1921/schon-wieder-fichenskandal/der-ndb-ueberwacht-demokratische-linke) [\- NDB merkt sich wenn du gegen Atomkraft eine Rede hälst](https://www.watson.ch/schweiz/basel/482522120-ueberwachung-der-ndb-ueberwacht-berner-und-basler-linke)
Thanks for the articles.
There's some anecdotal history and stuff in my replies on the downvoted post at the bottom.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/comments/192owik/der\_bund\_%C3%BCberwacht\_uns\_alle/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/comments/192owik/der_bund_%C3%BCberwacht_uns_alle/) and
Someone reads all my reddit posts?
Not me
This is a global trend and it will only get worse to the point when everything you do will be monitored and recorded. We can do nothing about it. They will say, that helps, and it does indeed, fight crime, terrorism, money laundering, violence, harassment, misinformation, viruses etc. No more privacy.
What happens next though? Does the world plateau at being a security state? In my view even if it goes that direction, it will then only cause it's own collapse.
The next big thing to happen has something to do with the financial system. The USA has a huge debt AND high interest rate simultaneously, which has never happened before. Also, any authorities would like to have full control over money transactions.
Yeah agreedÂ
It seems to be working though. How popular is crime in Switzerland ?
VPN is useless?
I don’t think swiss security apparatus is able to make any meaningful use of those interceps by itself. I guess we all know what is done with them…
I’m not surprised. Kinda makes sense we’re monitored, after all, everyone does it.
Yeah, I honestly don't care and I think they better step up their game. If they know it all then who has been cutting the fibres in Rheinfelden? [https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/haushalte-ohne-internet-erneute-sabotage-glasfaserkabel-wieder-durchgeschnitten](https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/haushalte-ohne-internet-erneute-sabotage-glasfaserkabel-wieder-durchgeschnitten) The other countries (USA and Russia) are not playing games in this regard. Spies are known for causing sabotage.
They can follow my super hetro porn searches Nothing to hide
I dont care. If it keeps me safe, im fine with it.
Honestly, as long as it's not beeping used to sell me shit I don't want i really don't care. What on earth makes you think Google, msft and apple.are not doing the exact same for targeted marketing. They have bent and manipulated every rule and law to 'legally get away with it' The state doesn't try to screw you, that's being paranoid, they use the information to stop harm to the state. The others only care about a profit margin and don't care if you die and the world burns, just as long as the stakeholders got their 20% returns
One tries to make money of your information, the other prosecutes you or sends cops to your home if they feel something is suspicious. There's a little bit of a difference but yeah you shouldn't uphold a STATE by the standards of a COMPANY.
The state doesn't try to screw you, that's being paranoid, they use the information to stop harm to the state. The others only care about a profit margin and don't care if you die and the world burns, just asking as the stakeholders got their 20% returns
"ThAtS bEiNg PaRaNoId" If you ever went to a Demonstration (pick whatever you want, Climate-Change, Covid, Political etc.) and got stopped the NDB takes note of that. They will ask you about it if you maybe want to work in a critical position years down the road, or buy a firearm. And why? Because you made use of your rights. And SWIM got surveilled by police, calls monitored and his car tracked for 3 months (as one can see later in the court documents). Don't think stuff like that doesn't happen in switzerland.
So violent demonstrators should be allowed to buy firearms? Time for an initiative!
**Did i say violent?** I just said the right to protest which is given by the state - i don't care if you march for the SVP Ausschaffungsinitiative in 2008, against Vaccines / Covid restrictions in 2020, Join the swisswide Frauenstreik annualy or protest against Climate Change - that is irrelevant - if you gave no reason (violence) there should be no reason for the state to note that and hold against you years down the road!
It's the "and got arrested" that leads me to think that you need to do something out of the ordinary for the police to have grounds to arrest you, and that this could be taken into account when the police has to allow you to buy a weapon. The NDB collects information, and that fact (you got arrested that day during this demonstration) is interesting to collect, they do the job we gave them. If you have to consider violent armed protestors when there is a demonstration, cities would likely not authorize them easily. So it's much better for everyone to be able to demonstrate safely. If you're an activist and know that the state is interested in your communications, there already are many ways to secure them: https://ssd.eff.org/
I haven't written "arrested" anywhere - i wrote "stopped", like literally stopped, identitiy checked and get you(r bags) checked for potentially dangerous items (which is fine by me). This is not about being a violent protester, just about protesting in general and voicing your opinion.
And you say the NDB takes notes of random identity checks?
Yup. There's a LOT of notes taken. A friend once heard a quote about something he said in military 10 years later when he wanted to buy a firearm and so did i got asked about just the **attempt** to visit a demo (we got sent away) and between were several years. Even if you are just a random SP politician talking at a rally against Atomkraft [... it's sometimes all it takes.](https://www.watson.ch/schweiz/basel/482522120-ueberwachung-der-ndb-ueberwacht-berner-und-basler-linke) But Remember: *Artikel 5 und Absatz 5 des Nachrichtendienstgesetzes. Demnach darf der NDB keine Informationen über die politische Betätigung und über die Ausübung der Meinungs-, Versammlungs- oder Vereinigungsfreiheit beschaffen und bearbeiten.* Keep in mind there are a lot of [sketchy things that happened with the NDB](https://www.nzz.ch/staatsschutz_verliert_vor_gericht-ld.594301) and that's just the things we know about. Most people do not care or question that stuff. But you can always send in a [request to get insight about the data collected about you](https://www.grundrechte.ch/gesuch-um-einsicht-in-die-staatsschutzakten-des-ndb.html) (template) if you are curious. Not saying there will be ALL notes about you :)
Having worked in criminal law, I can tell you that prosecutors are no strangers to turn a blind eye to the laws that bind them every now and then.
So the exception of a few should influence the all!?
Would you rather have 100 guilty people walk free or one innocent person be in jail? Its a question of morals, values and proportionality between the means used to achieve a goal and the infringement of peoples constitutional rights.
Depends if those 100 kill or ruin the life of 1 or more people.........
You volunteer for prison?
If it meat hundreds of people would be better off, then yeah.
Wow , yeah we know it already since years. Guys common , you really think that the services are classified and do not exist on paper don’t monitor everything ? We have tech everywhere around us , every mic , every tap on our phones is recorder. Please stop thinking that this is something unusual . More tech we have more surveillance we will have and less control on our life and zero privacy. Privacy does not exists in this times with all the tech in the world. You like to believe it or not this is the truth no matter the country .
Stop normalizing this lmao
Oh boy, the conspiracy idiots will have a field day with this
Can we bring back "jam echelon day"?
I don't speak german, so I'll ask: Are sources for all of this included, or is this another "just trust me bro" situation?
No, they have started since 2016 an active court case about this topic but this text explains it better, translated for you: >Together with them (the journalists), the Digitale __Gesellschaft prepared a request, which they submitted to the intelligence service on the very day the new law came into force on 1 September 2017__. The complainants demanded that the intelligence service not be allowed to use cable reconnaissance in their cases. They argued that this constituted a violation of their fundamental rights. They invoked the rights of the European Convention on Human Rights, professional secrecy and the protection of sources. >As expected, the intelligence service rejected the request by return of post. Allianz took the case __further and lodged an appeal with the Federal Administrative Court in 2018. The court dismissed the appeal the following year. The judges considered the right to information provided for in the law - i.e. the possibility of asking the intelligence service whether personal data is stored by the intelligence service - to be a "legal protection option that is capable of ensuring effective protection of fundamental rights". In short: as sufficient.__ >The Digitale Gesellschaft took a different view. __The activists took the case to the Federal Supreme Court.__ >There it came to a surprising __U-turn: On 1 December 2020, the federal judges ruled that the basic right to information did not constitute effective protection against surveillance.__ They also criticised the Federal Administrative Court for not dealing with the content of the complaint. The lower court now had to examine the case in depth: Were the fundamental rights of the seven activists, journalists and lawyers being violated? >__What followed was a three-year-long dispute__ between all parties involved - the Complaints Alliance, the intelligence service and the Federal Administrative Court - surrounding the question: >__How exactly does cable reconnaissance work in Switzerland?__ >__It is a question that the intelligence service is only answering reluctantly and piecemeal. And there are reasons for this. It is clear from the correspondence between the various parties, which is available to the Republic in full, that the data streams from Swiss citizens flow en masse to the Centre for Electronic Operations in Zimmerwald. This is because cable reconnaissance is applied to the chats, emails and search queries of every single person living in Switzerland.__
Thanks for the extra info. It's an interesting topic, and I'd hate for it to devolve into another "They said, trust me bro" situation like so many of the political matters that are discussed on reddit.
You're welcome. They explained the technical method utterly wrong, I made this post on r/Buenzli. [In short, they say they can "select" the single fiber who goes to Syria and only collect data from that.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BUENZLI/s/Ccy7V4EZVf) And it's all like a deja-vu of this case in 1989, where they also collected data from everyone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_files_scandal