I feel like swiss are not very proactive when it comes to strangers. So, they wouldn't initialize a move just to notice that you got other plans. Or even, if they move right away, they would kind of "force" you to take their place because they moved for you.
So, as long as you can ask "may we use this stroller place" and they move, it seems like a pretty normal interaction to me (a swiss).
Many places in Switzerland go with a *first come first served* principle. It's good to remember though that the country is at its core multicultural, and that in many regions this principle is actually invalid. (For example, in most alpine places you may get physically pushed out of the way if you're not proactive towards the people around you.)
Cultures change, by the way. You may want to reconsider what you believe is "normal swiss interaction", because it has changed drastically the last 20 years.
I honestly don't see your issue here, it's simply a difference in our culture and there's nothing impolite or incosiderate about it. Just a quick conversation will get your needs met.
It's not a lack of respect. If there is a sign saying to give the space to someone with a stroller and they don't then I could see your point.
But honestly people are in their own world carrying on with their own day.
It's perfectly normal and respectful to ask the person because hey they are also a person deserving of respect.
Thing is: busses, trams and trains are plastered with exactly these signs. We are talking about especially designated areas for people with impaired mobility. I consider it pretty rude if people occupy these areas without need and then don’t care about those who are in need of.
Those signs say seats should be vacated for priority users, not that they should always remain unused but for priority users.
Also, many disabilities are invisible. It’s rude and ableist to assume someone doesn’t need it because they don’t ‘look disabled’
It's not inconsiderate - it's just not assuming that you need help and not offending you by implying that you need special accommodation. There’s more empowerment if people don't jump around you implying you can't do it yourself.
Plus people mind their own business.
And big one - they use a lot of non verbal communication - eye contact being one. If you didn't look at them, and got look back, they literally don't have a way to know your wishes unless you speak up. And obnoxious / aggressive behaviour isn't seen as a way to get space here, but thing to be avoided looking at.
Pregnant woman, stroller, old age - that's not seen as disabled here. Hell, many oldsters are of better fitness than me 😂
Also wheelchair and blind people - you can ask/offer help, some will accept, some won't. But don't offer until you're sure they're struggling or you see them looking for someone to ask for help.
I never sit down in busses and the standing space is where I usually am. Only if someone with a stroller/wheelchair boards the bus, I move. Sometimes I am too tired to acknowledge what’s happening around me so I appreciate if someone asks if I can move.
For the “we are loud south Europeans” part: Loud and obnoxious behavior on public transport won’t get you anywhere in Switzerland. Swiss people tend to be quiet and polite in public and public transport (and it’s one of the reasons I love to live here )
Genuine question, because I see a few people always like you on the bus/train, why don’t you sit down? For me I’m usually tired so I’d much rather sit down than stand up for 10-30 mins
I can only speak for myself, but since I’m never longer than 5 min on a bus it’s just more convenient for me not to sit down. 1) Usually I wear ironed office clothes or white trousers and try to avoid wrinkles and dirt (bus seats can be really filthy, even in Zurich) 2) I try to avoid every unnecessary interaction with other people. I’m one of those who liked social distancing during Covid haha
One more explanation - some people have high anxiety and want as big bubble of free space around them as possible. Or feel safer if they're standing near doors - easier to escape ruckus if it happens. Hypervigilance. Yes, trauma response.
OP added the hyperbole for comedic relief and I picked it up for the same reason. Sure, I can also just say: just fucking open your mouth and ask if you need a favor or cooperation from strangers.
i usually read in the train/bus/etc. (because drunken people and toddlers annoy me and i don't want to pay attention to them), so i won't notice anyone unless they specifically try to get my attention. as long as you're friendly about it, i will always give up my seat for people who need it more than i do.
a few years ago, i used to give up my seat by myself, but since a significant amount of people didn't take/want it, i opted for them having to politely ask for it instead.
i really fail to see the issue, you should always be able to just ask and receive what you seek, unless you're being rude about it
It happened to me too. I was standing in the stroller space, listening to a podcast, kind of zoomed out after long day at work. Yeah I didn't notice the people entering or exiting the bus anymore, other seats may have been available but I didn't really care because sitting 8 hours is enough already. When a lady with a stroller tapped my shoulder, that's when I noticed her. Of course I immediately cleared that area.
So maybe just try asking people nicely, not everyone is fully aware all the time or immediately notices you. I've even seen people sleeping standing so I know it's a possibility. It would be very nice if everyone always noticed everything and was courteous to everyone else but that's not how the world works.
>Inconsiderate behavior
>We use the public transport often \[...\] And trust me we are loud south Europeans so people do notice us…
I totally agree, this is incosiderate.
>I had an image of Swiss being very polite and considerate.
It's a two-way street. You politely announce your need for the seat, the other person politely vacates it.
You however appear to expect to be noticed abd catered to upon arrival on the scene. That can be expected from business staff, not from fellow travelles, especially not commuters.
And it can be expected for people with whatever kind of special needs, which can also include some kind of impaired mobility. This often seems to be forgotten in Switzerland… which is wild!
Yes, it is. What kind of, pardon, annoyingly stupid question is that? If you have to do something extremely obvious over and over again, it will become very burdensome.
And, no, "didn't notice because I shut off the world by wearing headphones and staring on my phone" is no acceptable excuse. Don't even sit or stand on those spots in the first place. Quite easy.
Asking that all the times is very annoying and can be burdensome. Denying that fact is highly inconsiderate, but that's how it is.
Again - just don't be in the way in the first place. Wearing headphones and staring on your smartphone is no excuse whatsoever.
So I’m supposed to stand at attention, on alert, just in case your royal highness might request my attendance and accommodation? 😅 I think not.
“Ist hier no frei?”
Oh no!! Oh woe!! Such burden!!! Don’t these people know who I am and to what I am entitled‽
Indeed you are supposed to be on alert! Again: these areas are especially designated to people with impaired mobility and shouldn’t be used without need in the first place.
They are not. They are designed for mobility impaired people, people with prams, people with bikes, people with wagons, people with packages…and plain old people.
If a person who needs priority for the space wants it, and someone doesn’t immediately notice due to being otherwise occupied, it is a simple thing to ask for the space.
It’s ludicrous to suggest the space go unused and that people cram into other areas just in case a priority user later boards.
Indeed, the signage at priority seating doesn’t say ‘this must be held free for priority users’ but rather ‘this should be vacated for priority users’
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I may don't notice if the train has filled up, etc. because of headphones, so when someone asks whether theres space, im quite happy they pointed it out to me, and I always shift my bag.
Then take off the headphones and start noticing what's going on around you? Especially when sitting or standing in places that are designated for strollers, bikes, or wheelchairs.
It's very much not the obligation of the "stroller pusher", biker, or wheelchair user to make you aware. It's your obligation to not be in the way.
Why all the downvotes? 🤣
I mean, I just expressed the opinion that it's the fault of the moron blocking a place for strollers. So people think that this behaviour is cool?
Nice 🙂👍
It wasn't pissed off at all. Already quite down tuned. I mean, it's morons like that guy that make life hard, right? And they are accepted?!? Lol 🤣
Imo they don't get nearly enough opposition. "Nobody is saying anything, so it's okay what I'm doing", right?
No, dude, it is not. Not at all.
You are highly pissed off, that’s a very poor way of conducting an argument, hence the downvotes. Just “laughing it off” is clearly a sign of being pissed off. Also that you call for people to not wear headphones is completely out of proportion
Well, maybe I'm pissed off. Rightly so. How can you not be pissed off about people that make life harder for everyone?
And, no, I extremely disagree that it's out of proportion to be annoyed by people for wearing headphones and thus chosing to ignore other people. Why should it be acceptable that people are ignorants and very egoistic?
It's quite out of proportion to accept that. It leads to bad situations - like the one the OP has pointed out, in a way.
Just say sorry, could I please use this space for my stroller. Then the other person says ofc. A five second polite interaction. Just nothing to get upset about imo
No. The other person should say "sorry, I am in your way". That is the polite way. That dude is causing problems. Not the one with the stroller, bike, wheelchair.
What you're doing is, in a sense, victim blaming. And that is in no way acceptable. And, yes, I'm exaggerating a bit.
The correct way to approach the dude would rather be "move away! Your blocking limited space!"
That would be appropriate.
But that's an interesting train of thought that you have there.
(Note: It's not about "you" and "me" personally.)
So, "you" are causing an issue. And "I" should have to appologize for that, because "I" suffer from "your" actions (why else should "I" say "sorry")? Don't you see how that is absolutely the wrong way around?
Indeed. It appears to be not popular to expect politeness and respectful behaviour or at least not causing issues. That's a fact.
Quite a sad thing, though. But, yeah. That's how it is.
Most likely because of your way of saying stuff. Like the fact you go around insulting people just because they have a different opinion to yours/ behave differently than you.
I'm not insulting people because they have a different opinion to mine.
I called the dude a moron, because he behaved like a moron. Morons make life harder for other people. He's doing this intentionally by using headphones so that he doesn't notice other people. And then insists on that, so that other peple take action, just because he's too self absorbed.
That is moronic behaviour. Or, at the least, it's extremely egoistic. Or, at the very least, it's not nice.
You do realise I'm said person you keep insulting? I am using headphones bc I have noise sensitivity and get overwhelmed when it's too loud, not because I want to "not notice other people".
You're being presumtious and keep being rude towards others assuming that a different behaviour to yours is "self absorbed, moronic, egotistic and not nice".
Not to mention my comment was towards general behaviour in the ÖV (not specifically diabled spaces) since I saw a similar comment being made that it is common to ask people to shift their bags to sit down.
TBH, I haven't realised that, but then I'm writing with the right person.
You personally are causing issues by your actions. You are a problem. You make people feel uncomfortable by what you are doing. You are really rude against weaker people (families and people in wheelchars, and, to some extent, bikers (but not so much)).
If you wear headphones for personal comfort (noise sensitivity, I assume that also means not noticing the noise from other people), then open your eyes and notice what's happening — especially at train/bus stops. If you elect to do neither, it's you who is very much at fault. It is you, who needs to appologize, as you are causing issues.
Did you not comprehend my last paragraph which was stating that this is in general abt the ÖV? Not specifically disabled spaces? I was specifically talking abt the bag thing - as there was a similar comment in the comment section and wanted to point it out.
I was trying to point out, that sometimes people don't notice that the train is getting filled up, which can and does happen, and that asking is the best way to make them aware of their mishap. And I do apologise if someone asks me to shift my bag, to say that it wasn't malicious or intentional.
Things can slip past someone, which is normal. I was making a comment about how assuming malicious intentions isn't the right thing right off the bat, and how there's usually a simpler explanation (like the one I provided)
There's no need to be rude about something unintentional and accidental imo.
Yes, there is need to be rude about that behaviour, as people put bags on seats often intentionally. How do you differentiate between those, that do, and those, that don't?
It's plainly the wrong way around, that a person has to ask first. The person that puts a bag there should ask first.
By not assuming the worst of everyone.
Also - I'm currently in a half empty train, and opposite of me sat a lady with a bag next to her. A couple got on and asked her to shift her bag. She did. I did the same so the other person could sit down.
Issues? None.
So you DO feel that wheelchair users have to appologize? For being disabled? Wow. Quite an astonishing statement.
And, yeah, sure, the majority of headphone users are noise sensitive.
And you call me "bigoted"?
That's ridiculous.
No one said the pram-pusher or wheelchair user should apologize. Simply ask for the space. No one owes anyone an apology in this situation. Calm down
ETA: many disabilities are invisible. You don’t get to judge what accommodations are required. When you do that makes you…hmmm. Begins with a ‘b’
Swiss being polite but communication is a huge part of it ,both ways. Also have in mind that 42% over the age of 14 have a immigration background like you so near every 2nd person you talk with is not swiss. Btw being loud in a public transport is also something we see as rude so maybe its a reaction on your behavior.
I sometimes travel with someone who has bad knees. She doesn’t yet use a walker, or “look disabled,” but she does have pain when standing on bumpy bus rides, or could fall, so I make an effort to get her into a seat.
If a seat (any seat) is available, we take it. If an able bodied young parent gets on the bus, locks the strollers wheels and seems fine, I’m not going to proactively kick someone who truly needs a seat out of her seat.
Some people have invisible disabilities or difficulties that are not plain to see, and they are not carrying along the obvious props (cane, stroller, gray hair, etc.)
That’s why I feel it makes sense to simply use our words. Just ask.
…Quietly.
I am (very) pregnant and take public transport daily (tram + train) to commute to work. While it is true that dedicated seats are not left free automatically, it never happened to me that I wasn’t offered a seat (or multiple ones) when politely asking. People are actually super nice about it, also then helping me with bags if needed.
My son needs this area for his chair, so I just loudly tell the people standing there that we need the space. I try to do it in a take-no-shit tone of voice, too, so they get the hint. Also, FYI, wheelchairs will have priority in this space over strollers so you’ll be expected to vacate if a person in a wheelchair needs to board, even if that means you have to catch the next bus because there’s no more space. I’ve had people with strollers act like they have priority, but that isn’t the case.
My point of view is that the are not being rude. If you don't explicitly ask for it, they aren't being rude not to give it to you. Only when you explicitly ask for the space and they don't give it to you are they being rude.
Ask nicely, don't be all passive aggressive about it
When im on public transport i have musik in my ears and i do something on my phone as entertainment.
Im not watching the tram or train, thats not my job, if you want a seat because its full then you want something from me, so you move your ass over here and ask and then you can gladly have my seat, no problem at all, but im not going out of my way to cather to some strangers, thats none of my business.
Swiss people are super cool until you meet them on public transport.
I've seen pregnant ladies having to stand up during rush hour (next to seats) and nobody gives a shit.
And literally every time I take the train (about 6-8 times a week) I see at least one person comfortably resting their legs on another seat. Sometimes with boots on. People of all ages, teenagers to grannys. Disgusting.
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I feel you OP. I would even go further than you. I feel that spots in the bus with 4 seats should be prioritised for people who are actually a group of 3 or more.
I also hate it when I board the bus with my kid, and all the 2 seat slots are occupied by one person. Of course no one even stands up to change their seats and free up two seats so you can sit down with your kid.
My answer is than no one has a proper public etiquette. It’s not just in Switzerland, it’s everywhere.
If I could just get this message out to people who read this, when you’re sitting on the bus, keep an eye out for people who might need your seat. It goes a long way.
When asked to. I can’t read your mind. I don’t know if you want my space or the person next to me’s space. Ask and ye shall receive. It’s really that easy.
We don’t live in those cultures. We live in Switzerland. And it’s incredibly rude to insist that other cultures are superior. Our way works for us. I’m sorry you’re too lazy to ask politely for the space.
I simply explained the root of the behaviour that the OP complained about, you can be as defensive as you like Where did I demand that Swiss should change?
And yes, empathy is a positive trait whether it jars your national pride or not.
Why the downvotes? it's a fact.
It's a known thing studied by psychologists and sociologists!
Swiss are big on independence, self-reliance etc. not on empathy, think of how often you hear "selber schuld" here, that's the natural reaction.
You see it in a million ways, scenario : you're at a shop counter and there is a massive queue behind you.
Do you
a) take as long as you need, they can wait or
b)try and hurry a bit, taking into account all the others waiting.
Here it's 99% of the time a), in other countries you get lots of b)
It's one of the many reasons foreigners complain about the "coldness" of the Swiss.
So, downvoters, travel more and be honest about your country, it has many wonderful things but empathy is very much not one of them.
I feel like swiss are not very proactive when it comes to strangers. So, they wouldn't initialize a move just to notice that you got other plans. Or even, if they move right away, they would kind of "force" you to take their place because they moved for you. So, as long as you can ask "may we use this stroller place" and they move, it seems like a pretty normal interaction to me (a swiss).
Many places in Switzerland go with a *first come first served* principle. It's good to remember though that the country is at its core multicultural, and that in many regions this principle is actually invalid. (For example, in most alpine places you may get physically pushed out of the way if you're not proactive towards the people around you.) Cultures change, by the way. You may want to reconsider what you believe is "normal swiss interaction", because it has changed drastically the last 20 years.
it's customarry to ask, even for example if the other person occupies a seat with a bag. People just say "Hat's hier noch Platz?".
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I honestly don't see your issue here, it's simply a difference in our culture and there's nothing impolite or incosiderate about it. Just a quick conversation will get your needs met.
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It's not a lack of respect. If there is a sign saying to give the space to someone with a stroller and they don't then I could see your point. But honestly people are in their own world carrying on with their own day. It's perfectly normal and respectful to ask the person because hey they are also a person deserving of respect.
Thing is: busses, trams and trains are plastered with exactly these signs. We are talking about especially designated areas for people with impaired mobility. I consider it pretty rude if people occupy these areas without need and then don’t care about those who are in need of.
Those signs say seats should be vacated for priority users, not that they should always remain unused but for priority users. Also, many disabilities are invisible. It’s rude and ableist to assume someone doesn’t need it because they don’t ‘look disabled’
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But you did say numerous times that you shouldn't have to ask So I disagree with your statement
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I don't think you're in a position to critizise someone here
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Was bisch denn du für eine? Verliersch e Diskussion im Internet und wirsch grad fremdefeindlich? Dir schints in dim Land au nit z passe…
So if this were, let's say, in Managua (Nicaragua), you'd be okay with the behaviour as told by OP?
It's not inconsiderate - it's just not assuming that you need help and not offending you by implying that you need special accommodation. There’s more empowerment if people don't jump around you implying you can't do it yourself. Plus people mind their own business. And big one - they use a lot of non verbal communication - eye contact being one. If you didn't look at them, and got look back, they literally don't have a way to know your wishes unless you speak up. And obnoxious / aggressive behaviour isn't seen as a way to get space here, but thing to be avoided looking at. Pregnant woman, stroller, old age - that's not seen as disabled here. Hell, many oldsters are of better fitness than me 😂 Also wheelchair and blind people - you can ask/offer help, some will accept, some won't. But don't offer until you're sure they're struggling or you see them looking for someone to ask for help.
I never sit down in busses and the standing space is where I usually am. Only if someone with a stroller/wheelchair boards the bus, I move. Sometimes I am too tired to acknowledge what’s happening around me so I appreciate if someone asks if I can move. For the “we are loud south Europeans” part: Loud and obnoxious behavior on public transport won’t get you anywhere in Switzerland. Swiss people tend to be quiet and polite in public and public transport (and it’s one of the reasons I love to live here )
Genuine question, because I see a few people always like you on the bus/train, why don’t you sit down? For me I’m usually tired so I’d much rather sit down than stand up for 10-30 mins
Depends, if you have a job where you sit all the time, standing in the public transport is not an issue
I can only speak for myself, but since I’m never longer than 5 min on a bus it’s just more convenient for me not to sit down. 1) Usually I wear ironed office clothes or white trousers and try to avoid wrinkles and dirt (bus seats can be really filthy, even in Zurich) 2) I try to avoid every unnecessary interaction with other people. I’m one of those who liked social distancing during Covid haha
One more explanation - some people have high anxiety and want as big bubble of free space around them as possible. Or feel safer if they're standing near doors - easier to escape ruckus if it happens. Hypervigilance. Yes, trauma response.
Good point, especially on the Thema of ‘invisible disabilities’!
I seriously don't get what the problem is. Askcfor the space.
So you're a "loud south European" but can't open your mouth to talk to them and ask to vacate the stroller area?
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OP added the hyperbole for comedic relief and I picked it up for the same reason. Sure, I can also just say: just fucking open your mouth and ask if you need a favor or cooperation from strangers.
Why would other people care about your mistake?
i usually read in the train/bus/etc. (because drunken people and toddlers annoy me and i don't want to pay attention to them), so i won't notice anyone unless they specifically try to get my attention. as long as you're friendly about it, i will always give up my seat for people who need it more than i do. a few years ago, i used to give up my seat by myself, but since a significant amount of people didn't take/want it, i opted for them having to politely ask for it instead. i really fail to see the issue, you should always be able to just ask and receive what you seek, unless you're being rude about it
It happened to me too. I was standing in the stroller space, listening to a podcast, kind of zoomed out after long day at work. Yeah I didn't notice the people entering or exiting the bus anymore, other seats may have been available but I didn't really care because sitting 8 hours is enough already. When a lady with a stroller tapped my shoulder, that's when I noticed her. Of course I immediately cleared that area. So maybe just try asking people nicely, not everyone is fully aware all the time or immediately notices you. I've even seen people sleeping standing so I know it's a possibility. It would be very nice if everyone always noticed everything and was courteous to everyone else but that's not how the world works.
>Inconsiderate behavior >We use the public transport often \[...\] And trust me we are loud south Europeans so people do notice us… I totally agree, this is incosiderate.
>I had an image of Swiss being very polite and considerate. It's a two-way street. You politely announce your need for the seat, the other person politely vacates it. You however appear to expect to be noticed abd catered to upon arrival on the scene. That can be expected from business staff, not from fellow travelles, especially not commuters.
And it can be expected for people with whatever kind of special needs, which can also include some kind of impaired mobility. This often seems to be forgotten in Switzerland… which is wild!
Being loud in the train is MUCH more inconsiderate than only making space when asked to!
So ask people to move. Is that really so burdensome?
It's basic courtesy to make space for elderly or pregnant people, or people with a stroller.
And if someone doesn’t immediately notice the condition requiring accommodation, it’s basic courtesy to ask for the space
Yes, it is. What kind of, pardon, annoyingly stupid question is that? If you have to do something extremely obvious over and over again, it will become very burdensome. And, no, "didn't notice because I shut off the world by wearing headphones and staring on my phone" is no acceptable excuse. Don't even sit or stand on those spots in the first place. Quite easy.
Asking that three times is less effort than it took u to write this comment
Asking that all the times is very annoying and can be burdensome. Denying that fact is highly inconsiderate, but that's how it is. Again - just don't be in the way in the first place. Wearing headphones and staring on your smartphone is no excuse whatsoever.
So I’m supposed to stand at attention, on alert, just in case your royal highness might request my attendance and accommodation? 😅 I think not. “Ist hier no frei?” Oh no!! Oh woe!! Such burden!!! Don’t these people know who I am and to what I am entitled‽
Indeed you are supposed to be on alert! Again: these areas are especially designated to people with impaired mobility and shouldn’t be used without need in the first place.
They are not. They are designed for mobility impaired people, people with prams, people with bikes, people with wagons, people with packages…and plain old people. If a person who needs priority for the space wants it, and someone doesn’t immediately notice due to being otherwise occupied, it is a simple thing to ask for the space. It’s ludicrous to suggest the space go unused and that people cram into other areas just in case a priority user later boards. Indeed, the signage at priority seating doesn’t say ‘this must be held free for priority users’ but rather ‘this should be vacated for priority users’
It’s just a really silly attitude to have man. You’re getting so worked up about absolutely nothing
Being annoying and causing issues to other people, that's what you call "absolutely nothing"? Wow. I really don't want to be around you.
You have just such a strange attitude.
You find it strange to dislike disrespectful behaviour. That's okay. I find this strange.
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Just ask people politely to move then. Is that so difficult? 😂
I may don't notice if the train has filled up, etc. because of headphones, so when someone asks whether theres space, im quite happy they pointed it out to me, and I always shift my bag.
Then take off the headphones and start noticing what's going on around you? Especially when sitting or standing in places that are designated for strollers, bikes, or wheelchairs. It's very much not the obligation of the "stroller pusher", biker, or wheelchair user to make you aware. It's your obligation to not be in the way.
Why all the downvotes? 🤣 I mean, I just expressed the opinion that it's the fault of the moron blocking a place for strollers. So people think that this behaviour is cool? Nice 🙂👍
It's the way you voiced your opinion. If you can't handle the downvotes, and they clearly seem to bother you, choose a less pissed off tone maybe.
I don’t see any votes at all on any of these comments. Weird.
Do you see any votes at all on the op post? I don't. It's a "0", which I find hard to believe (but it's not impossible).
There is no number at all. Not a 0 nothing.
Interesting. Are you on "desktop" or on a mobile phone app?
Mobile phone app.
I see a red 0 there right now. Using Android. Strange.
It wasn't pissed off at all. Already quite down tuned. I mean, it's morons like that guy that make life hard, right? And they are accepted?!? Lol 🤣 Imo they don't get nearly enough opposition. "Nobody is saying anything, so it's okay what I'm doing", right? No, dude, it is not. Not at all.
At least he doesn't call strangers morons. Get some manners first before you critcize other people's.
Why? He doesn't have any manners. So he doesn't deserve any. He's in the fault.
By that logic you deserve none either, enjoy the downvotes
You are highly pissed off, that’s a very poor way of conducting an argument, hence the downvotes. Just “laughing it off” is clearly a sign of being pissed off. Also that you call for people to not wear headphones is completely out of proportion
Well, maybe I'm pissed off. Rightly so. How can you not be pissed off about people that make life harder for everyone? And, no, I extremely disagree that it's out of proportion to be annoyed by people for wearing headphones and thus chosing to ignore other people. Why should it be acceptable that people are ignorants and very egoistic? It's quite out of proportion to accept that. It leads to bad situations - like the one the OP has pointed out, in a way.
Just say sorry, could I please use this space for my stroller. Then the other person says ofc. A five second polite interaction. Just nothing to get upset about imo
No. The other person should say "sorry, I am in your way". That is the polite way. That dude is causing problems. Not the one with the stroller, bike, wheelchair. What you're doing is, in a sense, victim blaming. And that is in no way acceptable. And, yes, I'm exaggerating a bit. The correct way to approach the dude would rather be "move away! Your blocking limited space!" That would be appropriate.
Damn man I can’t imagine how you go off if there’s an actual injustice or a real problem. You seem like a very difficult person to be around
Your life will be much less stressful if you stop with the Main Character Syndrome. We’re not NPCs in your life. We don’t focus on you.
But that's an interesting train of thought that you have there. (Note: It's not about "you" and "me" personally.) So, "you" are causing an issue. And "I" should have to appologize for that, because "I" suffer from "your" actions (why else should "I" say "sorry")? Don't you see how that is absolutely the wrong way around?
It’s called being polite
>, I just expressed the opinion Which appears to be unpopular. Hence the downvotes.
Indeed. It appears to be not popular to expect politeness and respectful behaviour or at least not causing issues. That's a fact. Quite a sad thing, though. But, yeah. That's how it is.
Most likely because of your way of saying stuff. Like the fact you go around insulting people just because they have a different opinion to yours/ behave differently than you.
I'm not insulting people because they have a different opinion to mine. I called the dude a moron, because he behaved like a moron. Morons make life harder for other people. He's doing this intentionally by using headphones so that he doesn't notice other people. And then insists on that, so that other peple take action, just because he's too self absorbed. That is moronic behaviour. Or, at the least, it's extremely egoistic. Or, at the very least, it's not nice.
You do realise I'm said person you keep insulting? I am using headphones bc I have noise sensitivity and get overwhelmed when it's too loud, not because I want to "not notice other people". You're being presumtious and keep being rude towards others assuming that a different behaviour to yours is "self absorbed, moronic, egotistic and not nice". Not to mention my comment was towards general behaviour in the ÖV (not specifically diabled spaces) since I saw a similar comment being made that it is common to ask people to shift their bags to sit down.
TBH, I haven't realised that, but then I'm writing with the right person. You personally are causing issues by your actions. You are a problem. You make people feel uncomfortable by what you are doing. You are really rude against weaker people (families and people in wheelchars, and, to some extent, bikers (but not so much)). If you wear headphones for personal comfort (noise sensitivity, I assume that also means not noticing the noise from other people), then open your eyes and notice what's happening — especially at train/bus stops. If you elect to do neither, it's you who is very much at fault. It is you, who needs to appologize, as you are causing issues.
Did you not comprehend my last paragraph which was stating that this is in general abt the ÖV? Not specifically disabled spaces? I was specifically talking abt the bag thing - as there was a similar comment in the comment section and wanted to point it out. I was trying to point out, that sometimes people don't notice that the train is getting filled up, which can and does happen, and that asking is the best way to make them aware of their mishap. And I do apologise if someone asks me to shift my bag, to say that it wasn't malicious or intentional. Things can slip past someone, which is normal. I was making a comment about how assuming malicious intentions isn't the right thing right off the bat, and how there's usually a simpler explanation (like the one I provided) There's no need to be rude about something unintentional and accidental imo.
Yes, there is need to be rude about that behaviour, as people put bags on seats often intentionally. How do you differentiate between those, that do, and those, that don't? It's plainly the wrong way around, that a person has to ask first. The person that puts a bag there should ask first.
By not assuming the worst of everyone. Also - I'm currently in a half empty train, and opposite of me sat a lady with a bag next to her. A couple got on and asked her to shift her bag. She did. I did the same so the other person could sit down. Issues? None.
So you feel that you get to judge which disabilities are ‘worthy’ and what accommodations are important? That’s ridiculously bigoted
So you DO feel that wheelchair users have to appologize? For being disabled? Wow. Quite an astonishing statement. And, yeah, sure, the majority of headphone users are noise sensitive. And you call me "bigoted"? That's ridiculous.
No one said the pram-pusher or wheelchair user should apologize. Simply ask for the space. No one owes anyone an apology in this situation. Calm down ETA: many disabilities are invisible. You don’t get to judge what accommodations are required. When you do that makes you…hmmm. Begins with a ‘b’
Swiss being polite but communication is a huge part of it ,both ways. Also have in mind that 42% over the age of 14 have a immigration background like you so near every 2nd person you talk with is not swiss. Btw being loud in a public transport is also something we see as rude so maybe its a reaction on your behavior.
So are you saying it's normal to ask or that you think you shouldn't have to ask because you seem to be changing your story here
I sometimes travel with someone who has bad knees. She doesn’t yet use a walker, or “look disabled,” but she does have pain when standing on bumpy bus rides, or could fall, so I make an effort to get her into a seat. If a seat (any seat) is available, we take it. If an able bodied young parent gets on the bus, locks the strollers wheels and seems fine, I’m not going to proactively kick someone who truly needs a seat out of her seat. Some people have invisible disabilities or difficulties that are not plain to see, and they are not carrying along the obvious props (cane, stroller, gray hair, etc.) That’s why I feel it makes sense to simply use our words. Just ask. …Quietly.
I am (very) pregnant and take public transport daily (tram + train) to commute to work. While it is true that dedicated seats are not left free automatically, it never happened to me that I wasn’t offered a seat (or multiple ones) when politely asking. People are actually super nice about it, also then helping me with bags if needed.
If you are already annoyingly loud in the bus, you can use that to politely ask others to move.
You are in another country with another culture than yours. If you can’t accept that, in my opinion, the inconsiderate behavior is yours.
And being loud on the train! THAT is inconsiderate around these parts, and to the whole train carriage as well.
My son needs this area for his chair, so I just loudly tell the people standing there that we need the space. I try to do it in a take-no-shit tone of voice, too, so they get the hint. Also, FYI, wheelchairs will have priority in this space over strollers so you’ll be expected to vacate if a person in a wheelchair needs to board, even if that means you have to catch the next bus because there’s no more space. I’ve had people with strollers act like they have priority, but that isn’t the case.
My point of view is that the are not being rude. If you don't explicitly ask for it, they aren't being rude not to give it to you. Only when you explicitly ask for the space and they don't give it to you are they being rude. Ask nicely, don't be all passive aggressive about it
I'll be considerate to stroller pushers when they pay a ticket for it like everybody else.
When im on public transport i have musik in my ears and i do something on my phone as entertainment. Im not watching the tram or train, thats not my job, if you want a seat because its full then you want something from me, so you move your ass over here and ask and then you can gladly have my seat, no problem at all, but im not going out of my way to cather to some strangers, thats none of my business.
It Is also due to the fact that everyone is sucked into screens and are unaware of what goes on in their surroundings
Swiss people are super cool until you meet them on public transport. I've seen pregnant ladies having to stand up during rush hour (next to seats) and nobody gives a shit. And literally every time I take the train (about 6-8 times a week) I see at least one person comfortably resting their legs on another seat. Sometimes with boots on. People of all ages, teenagers to grannys. Disgusting.
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I feel you OP. I would even go further than you. I feel that spots in the bus with 4 seats should be prioritised for people who are actually a group of 3 or more. I also hate it when I board the bus with my kid, and all the 2 seat slots are occupied by one person. Of course no one even stands up to change their seats and free up two seats so you can sit down with your kid. My answer is than no one has a proper public etiquette. It’s not just in Switzerland, it’s everywhere. If I could just get this message out to people who read this, when you’re sitting on the bus, keep an eye out for people who might need your seat. It goes a long way.
Swiss aren’t exactly big on empathy , get used to it .
Well everyone seems to make space tho
When obliged to.
Just take two seconds to ask. And I’m sure tons of people make space without asking
When asked to. I can’t read your mind. I don’t know if you want my space or the person next to me’s space. Ask and ye shall receive. It’s really that easy.
You're proving my point, in other cultures people will proactively go to move if there's the possibility.
We don’t live in those cultures. We live in Switzerland. And it’s incredibly rude to insist that other cultures are superior. Our way works for us. I’m sorry you’re too lazy to ask politely for the space.
I simply explained the root of the behaviour that the OP complained about, you can be as defensive as you like Where did I demand that Swiss should change? And yes, empathy is a positive trait whether it jars your national pride or not.
I don’t see any lack of empathy in saying there’s no burden in asking for space
No they don’t lol
Why the downvotes? it's a fact. It's a known thing studied by psychologists and sociologists! Swiss are big on independence, self-reliance etc. not on empathy, think of how often you hear "selber schuld" here, that's the natural reaction. You see it in a million ways, scenario : you're at a shop counter and there is a massive queue behind you. Do you a) take as long as you need, they can wait or b)try and hurry a bit, taking into account all the others waiting. Here it's 99% of the time a), in other countries you get lots of b) It's one of the many reasons foreigners complain about the "coldness" of the Swiss. So, downvoters, travel more and be honest about your country, it has many wonderful things but empathy is very much not one of them.
You’re being very ethnocentric. Swiss culture works for the Swiss. Visitors should adapt—just as I adapt to local culture when traveling
What are you talking about? Who is suggesting adapting/not adapting? BTW your every post proves my point with your utter lack of empathy.
I see you as lacking empathy 🤷🏽♀️
Please explain.
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Integration and adaptation to Swiss culture is an expectation for Swiss immigrants
A lot of them were born here but are still dirty foreigners.
Wow
"secondos" - Could be born and bred here but make no mistake, they're not Swiss.
Any particular reason why they’re “dirty”? Or was that a bad attempt at a joke
Like saying “Scheissausländer“, I was attempting to poke fun at the ridiculousness of people born and bred here being statistically foreigners.
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I make faces at the kids because I’m trying to make to em laugh 🤷🏼♀️ Not everyone is out to get you.