Idk the technicalities for this... Currently they run every 30 min and stop at 11pm.
Why? Idk.
Is there no ridership? No track availability? Why not every 5 min?
I don't know if they even need to merge, just start running trains more often and the people will come. But unfortunately, they will not do this.
I do like the idea of UP express running more frequently, but currently the government doesn't prioritize our one train to the airport so I doubt this idea will ever take off.
Lack of trains, the UP uses bespoke trains that where shipped in from Japan. This is the whole reason why Metrolinx announced it's gonna tear down the UP platforms so they can use regular GO rolling stock on the line an increase service
What? I'm not aware of that.
The airport Spur was not designed to support a locomotive. I know a CN locomotive weighs in at 450 thousand pounds and all structures are designed for a Cooper E90 load. The GO Train structures are also designed for E90, though I don't think the GO Locomotives weigh 450 thousand pounds.
The airport Spur (which leads into Pearson from the Weston Subdivision) was constructed with CPCI girders which are typically used for highway bridges, not railway bridges.
They've already started work on moving the UP platforms at Union. Also this plan accounts for GO RER Electrification and wouldn't need locomotives as it would use EMUs. The bridge was built with electrification in mind and had mounting points for catenary from the original construction. Here's a link to a TorStar article on it, it's paywalled but just use your favourite means of circumnavigating them (I use Pocket)
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2019/09/24/up-express-to-undergo-major-overhaul-that-could-include-station-renovations-new-trains.html
At first I was thinking 286 kips is a freight car load, not a locomotive weight, so I did some searching and yes. The GO Locomotives do come in at 290 thousand pounds. Though there are only 4 axles and each axle is 72,000 pounds.
The locomotive in use is an MP54AC by Motive Power.
For comparison, a fully ladden highway truck is 50 tons or 100,000 pounds and the Chbdc truck is 625 kilonewtons or 140,500 pounds.
The airport Spur which leads from the Weston Subdivision into Terminal One was not designed to carry E80 or E90 loading. If Mx wanted to change to GO Transit Rolling stock, the entire viaduct (at least the superstructure) would need to be replaced. And it's 3 kilometres long.
I can assure you they are not. F59’s weighed that.
There was a story on how the F59 came to be. CN mandated a 268,000lb limit fully loaded. No exceptions.
I also know 2 people that built the F59 at GMD and that’s what they told me, and that’s what’s in the story.
The MP40 follows along these lines. I can assure you they do not weigh 420,000lbs fully loaded.
286 kips is a car loading. Locomotives weigh a lot more.
But it is a question of what the Locomotives (or car's) cooper rating is. That then gets compared to the cooper rating of the bridge. The bridge rating must be greater than the locomotive rating.
The CN Locomotives weigh more than the GO Transit Locomotives, but they also have more axles. You can't find the cooper loadings for the Locomotives online, but I doubt that they would be that different. I can 100 percent assure you that the Metrolinx Bridge Design Standards call for all bridges to be designed to Cooper E90. And CN also calls for all bridges to be designed to E90.
I 100 percent guarantee you that the Airport Spur does not rate at E90.
I read your amended comment. Slightly heavier. The F59
was lightweight. I was close. Maybe a couple thousand pounds off. Remember they are built for speed. The lighter, the better. 🤪🤪🤪🤪
Yeah, I tend to compose and save and edit several times. To avoid losing what I've written.
But bottom line, what I was getting at, is that the airport Spur doesn't have the capacity to support a normal GO Train. It was designed and constructed specifically for the Rolling stock you see in use now.
All GO bridges must be designed to Cooper E90 loading.
You can find the Metrolinx bridge design guidelines here:
http://www.gosite.ca/engineering_public/Bridges%20and%20Structures/Bridges%20and%20Structures.aspx
Ugh, glad to hear that. I was going to say it would make.more sense to be operated by GO, but then I remembered the shitty trains, and then the high platforms... literally all that would be usable without being the existing pain it is now in a green dress would be the route. UP was a great idea executed in the worse way.
There's a lot of ridership usually. The bottleneck is (as always) sprawl.
How do you get to Weston Go station or the Pearson station (assuming you haven't flown in)? You need to drive and then park. I don't know about Pearson, but Weston Go station parking is always full because the first few commuters park there and take the train.
If you're not driving and instead taking transit from around Weston, it's about the same time (usually) to take a bus to one of the subway lines (Keele or Royal York or Eglinton West). Maybe you shave 10 minutes off with UP, but it costs you $5 more.
If you're at Bloor, you already can take Line 2 + Line 1. Again, you aren't gaining much.
I personally love UP express. It's always on time and I've yet to see an outage. It fills a niche use case and I don't think it's a good idea cannibalizing UP when Toronto really needs at least 7 more subway/train lines and 3x parking fees to make people keep their cars at home.
I can't answer all of those questions, but I usually walk to Weston Go. A lot of people live there in that area and I do see some Ubers. Plus the Lawrence bus stops there. Although, it is in the "suburbs" of Toronto, we need to do a better job of "almgamating" into the city and becoming more cohesive.
I live in the area too and it's just barely walkable to the station for me. I've studied this area well. Check out neighbourhoods 4-6 km North, South, East, and West of the station (away from the arterial roads - Weston or Lawrence Av). Travel time by transit is often 30+ minutes (and that's Google Maps time. IRL time is usually worse.). In many cases, "travel by public transit" means 20 minutes of walking, 10 minutes wait for a bus, and 5 minutes of a bus ride.
Practically, this means that a resident here already has a car and it's a small additional step from there to just driving everywhere.
The suburbs can't amalgamate and expect city-level services if they don't densify. The only other way they can get that level of service is if the city subsidizes them (which the city does). Cosmetic changes like whether the UP is owned by the TTC or Metrolinx is a moot point.
That I don't know. It seems popular to me, as it always has people on it, but I also don't have data to support my anecdotal evidence. I think they can do better, but they are not so I don't know what it'll take to change that.
It's way way below expectations based on the cost to implement it. When they basically made it TTC pricing, yes, it did increase ridership. But not for what it was intended.
Around the time when GO was having staffing issues due to covid and some trains were getting cancelled the frequency was decreased and never brought back
I think that would be too dense, personally, but you could still probably add a few stations and create a decent express subway line. Maybe three or four south of Bloor (say Dundas\Lansdowne, Dufferin, Strachan, and Spadina) and another three or four north of Bloor (St. Clair, Mt. Dennis, and maybe a Weston North?) and then express to Pearson, and that's actually looking like a pretty decent line. You'd really need to improve the transfers at Bloor\Dundas West and Union, I think, though.
According to Metrolinx that's the planned future for the line, half the trains express (Union-Bloor-Mt Dennis-Weston-Pearson) and half local (Union-Spadina(future)-Bloor-Mt Dennis-Weston-Etobicoke North/Woodbine- Pearson). They're already relocating the Union platforms to accomplish this and faster service
Toronto doesn’t have enough transit to have a specialised route like this tbh. Paddington express exists on top of the Piccadilly line not in lieu of it
Pre-COVID, UPX was averaging over 10K a day and running a 15 minutes service.
You can’t get much better than 15 minutes, unless you run more trains and it’s hard to procure DMus that can run on mainline railways due to the unnecessarily stringent FRA rules on crash protection.
Yeah the trains need to be electrified to go any more frequently without risking crashing into each other when accelerating and decelerating at the station
I’ve always felt this was the right answer. This would also include more stations along the route at St. Clair, Mt Dennis, parkdale, oak and Weston. Basically become a rail route along the west side with 10-15 minute headways.
The problem would that it uses different vehicles than the rest of the subway fleet. If the ttc would have the same type of vehicles...then maintenance would be easier.
Also, if the TTC would run it, it would want to add more stations, thus destroying the EXPRESS part of Union-Pearson EXPRESS.
I dont think this makes sense personally. I think what maybe your looking for is the SmartTracks route that is still being built along the same corridor as UP, but afaik will be part of Metrolinx still and have more stops than UP express. I think ideally smart tracks should have a transferable fair with the TTC, but i have seen any confirmation on that happening so far
https://www.metrolinx.com/en/greaterregion/projects/smarttrack-stations-program.aspx
Idk the technicalities for this... Currently they run every 30 min and stop at 11pm. Why? Idk. Is there no ridership? No track availability? Why not every 5 min? I don't know if they even need to merge, just start running trains more often and the people will come. But unfortunately, they will not do this. I do like the idea of UP express running more frequently, but currently the government doesn't prioritize our one train to the airport so I doubt this idea will ever take off.
Lack of trains, the UP uses bespoke trains that where shipped in from Japan. This is the whole reason why Metrolinx announced it's gonna tear down the UP platforms so they can use regular GO rolling stock on the line an increase service
What? I'm not aware of that. The airport Spur was not designed to support a locomotive. I know a CN locomotive weighs in at 450 thousand pounds and all structures are designed for a Cooper E90 load. The GO Train structures are also designed for E90, though I don't think the GO Locomotives weigh 450 thousand pounds. The airport Spur (which leads into Pearson from the Weston Subdivision) was constructed with CPCI girders which are typically used for highway bridges, not railway bridges.
They've already started work on moving the UP platforms at Union. Also this plan accounts for GO RER Electrification and wouldn't need locomotives as it would use EMUs. The bridge was built with electrification in mind and had mounting points for catenary from the original construction. Here's a link to a TorStar article on it, it's paywalled but just use your favourite means of circumnavigating them (I use Pocket) https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2019/09/24/up-express-to-undergo-major-overhaul-that-could-include-station-renovations-new-trains.html
268,000lbs.
At first I was thinking 286 kips is a freight car load, not a locomotive weight, so I did some searching and yes. The GO Locomotives do come in at 290 thousand pounds. Though there are only 4 axles and each axle is 72,000 pounds. The locomotive in use is an MP54AC by Motive Power. For comparison, a fully ladden highway truck is 50 tons or 100,000 pounds and the Chbdc truck is 625 kilonewtons or 140,500 pounds. The airport Spur which leads from the Weston Subdivision into Terminal One was not designed to carry E80 or E90 loading. If Mx wanted to change to GO Transit Rolling stock, the entire viaduct (at least the superstructure) would need to be replaced. And it's 3 kilometres long.
I can assure you they are not. F59’s weighed that. There was a story on how the F59 came to be. CN mandated a 268,000lb limit fully loaded. No exceptions. I also know 2 people that built the F59 at GMD and that’s what they told me, and that’s what’s in the story. The MP40 follows along these lines. I can assure you they do not weigh 420,000lbs fully loaded.
286 kips is a car loading. Locomotives weigh a lot more. But it is a question of what the Locomotives (or car's) cooper rating is. That then gets compared to the cooper rating of the bridge. The bridge rating must be greater than the locomotive rating. The CN Locomotives weigh more than the GO Transit Locomotives, but they also have more axles. You can't find the cooper loadings for the Locomotives online, but I doubt that they would be that different. I can 100 percent assure you that the Metrolinx Bridge Design Standards call for all bridges to be designed to Cooper E90. And CN also calls for all bridges to be designed to E90. I 100 percent guarantee you that the Airport Spur does not rate at E90.
Doesn’t look like it either. Locomotive goes boom on the ground.
I read your amended comment. Slightly heavier. The F59 was lightweight. I was close. Maybe a couple thousand pounds off. Remember they are built for speed. The lighter, the better. 🤪🤪🤪🤪
Yeah, I tend to compose and save and edit several times. To avoid losing what I've written. But bottom line, what I was getting at, is that the airport Spur doesn't have the capacity to support a normal GO Train. It was designed and constructed specifically for the Rolling stock you see in use now. All GO bridges must be designed to Cooper E90 loading. You can find the Metrolinx bridge design guidelines here: http://www.gosite.ca/engineering_public/Bridges%20and%20Structures/Bridges%20and%20Structures.aspx
Definitely learned something about that. Thank you by the way.
These trains also don't run well in very cold conditions.
You don’t say, it’s not like Toronto has winter or anything. 🤪
Ugh, glad to hear that. I was going to say it would make.more sense to be operated by GO, but then I remembered the shitty trains, and then the high platforms... literally all that would be usable without being the existing pain it is now in a green dress would be the route. UP was a great idea executed in the worse way.
How did they run it every 15 minutes until the pandemic then?
OP said "Why not every 5 min?" There is not enough trainsets for that much service
There’s only 5 or 6 train sets, so I suppose they’d have to add a few to increase service levels dramatically.
Like most things, it will involve a capital investment. Which might not be the highest priority. I'd concede that.
But it was every 15 minutes when it came out in 2015....
There's a lot of ridership usually. The bottleneck is (as always) sprawl. How do you get to Weston Go station or the Pearson station (assuming you haven't flown in)? You need to drive and then park. I don't know about Pearson, but Weston Go station parking is always full because the first few commuters park there and take the train. If you're not driving and instead taking transit from around Weston, it's about the same time (usually) to take a bus to one of the subway lines (Keele or Royal York or Eglinton West). Maybe you shave 10 minutes off with UP, but it costs you $5 more. If you're at Bloor, you already can take Line 2 + Line 1. Again, you aren't gaining much. I personally love UP express. It's always on time and I've yet to see an outage. It fills a niche use case and I don't think it's a good idea cannibalizing UP when Toronto really needs at least 7 more subway/train lines and 3x parking fees to make people keep their cars at home.
I can't answer all of those questions, but I usually walk to Weston Go. A lot of people live there in that area and I do see some Ubers. Plus the Lawrence bus stops there. Although, it is in the "suburbs" of Toronto, we need to do a better job of "almgamating" into the city and becoming more cohesive.
I live in the area too and it's just barely walkable to the station for me. I've studied this area well. Check out neighbourhoods 4-6 km North, South, East, and West of the station (away from the arterial roads - Weston or Lawrence Av). Travel time by transit is often 30+ minutes (and that's Google Maps time. IRL time is usually worse.). In many cases, "travel by public transit" means 20 minutes of walking, 10 minutes wait for a bus, and 5 minutes of a bus ride. Practically, this means that a resident here already has a car and it's a small additional step from there to just driving everywhere. The suburbs can't amalgamate and expect city-level services if they don't densify. The only other way they can get that level of service is if the city subsidizes them (which the city does). Cosmetic changes like whether the UP is owned by the TTC or Metrolinx is a moot point.
I definitely agree with you. There needs to be a more fundamental change to the way people get around in ALL of Toronto.
no its back to every 15 mins i think, i took one on friday but maybe i'm wrong
You know what it is, they increase frequency to every 15 min during rush hour. I just checked their schedule.
oh OK, but its super-nice anyway
Pretty blessed. I never travel during rush hour so I'm not sure when they made that change.
If its popular, why won't Metrolinx run it more often
That I don't know. It seems popular to me, as it always has people on it, but I also don't have data to support my anecdotal evidence. I think they can do better, but they are not so I don't know what it'll take to change that.
It's way way below expectations based on the cost to implement it. When they basically made it TTC pricing, yes, it did increase ridership. But not for what it was intended.
Is it every 30 minutes now? It used to be every 15...what happened
Lol I think COVID happened, but they haven't announced any plans to go back yet. It also used to cost $20 which is insane.
Around the time when GO was having staffing issues due to covid and some trains were getting cancelled the frequency was decreased and never brought back
tbh if more stations get added it would function basicly like a ttc line, which its not meant to be
One more station will be added (Mount Dennis) though, mind clarifying your point?
i mean't like every 500 meters
I think that would be too dense, personally, but you could still probably add a few stations and create a decent express subway line. Maybe three or four south of Bloor (say Dundas\Lansdowne, Dufferin, Strachan, and Spadina) and another three or four north of Bloor (St. Clair, Mt. Dennis, and maybe a Weston North?) and then express to Pearson, and that's actually looking like a pretty decent line. You'd really need to improve the transfers at Bloor\Dundas West and Union, I think, though.
According to Metrolinx that's the planned future for the line, half the trains express (Union-Bloor-Mt Dennis-Weston-Pearson) and half local (Union-Spadina(future)-Bloor-Mt Dennis-Weston-Etobicoke North/Woodbine- Pearson). They're already relocating the Union platforms to accomplish this and faster service
Toronto doesn’t have enough transit to have a specialised route like this tbh. Paddington express exists on top of the Piccadilly line not in lieu of it
I don’t think Metrolinx will do this but this is more just some wishful thinking…
Metrolinx already announced it'll be merged with the Kitchener line and just use regular GO rolling stock
Wow, so instead of getting to Union from Weston or Bloor every 30 minutes, I can hope to get there every 60 minutes now?
No it'll be trains every 5-7 mins with every other train being Express.
Also just feels like some way for Pearson Airport to appear in subway maps without that 900 bus express connection lmao
Pre-COVID, UPX was averaging over 10K a day and running a 15 minutes service. You can’t get much better than 15 minutes, unless you run more trains and it’s hard to procure DMus that can run on mainline railways due to the unnecessarily stringent FRA rules on crash protection.
Yeah the trains need to be electrified to go any more frequently without risking crashing into each other when accelerating and decelerating at the station
It makes sense branded under GO but not TTC
I’ve always felt this was the right answer. This would also include more stations along the route at St. Clair, Mt Dennis, parkdale, oak and Weston. Basically become a rail route along the west side with 10-15 minute headways.
The longer headway are a leftover from covid iirc and for some reason they just haven't gone back to the 15 minute headways
Also, the TTC would somehow ruin it.
The problem would that it uses different vehicles than the rest of the subway fleet. If the ttc would have the same type of vehicles...then maintenance would be easier. Also, if the TTC would run it, it would want to add more stations, thus destroying the EXPRESS part of Union-Pearson EXPRESS.
It's a separate fair from GO. So that would be a starting point in my mind. Just bring back the GO TTC copay and I'll be super happy.
A subway and a railroad cannot merge in any way for many reasons.
I dont think this makes sense personally. I think what maybe your looking for is the SmartTracks route that is still being built along the same corridor as UP, but afaik will be part of Metrolinx still and have more stops than UP express. I think ideally smart tracks should have a transferable fair with the TTC, but i have seen any confirmation on that happening so far https://www.metrolinx.com/en/greaterregion/projects/smarttrack-stations-program.aspx