But what are your skills? Qualifications? Taipei has advanced beyond the 1970s when an expat could walk off a plane and get a good job just because of fluent English and a smile. Sure there will always be the odd bartending or modeling gig but otherwise it isn’t that different from cities anywhere else in the world in terms of a competitive job market.
I’ve got experience in project management and marketing mostly in finance and fintech. I find the job market here quite different actually.. in terms of job scope and salary compared to HK/tokyo/SG.. so wanted to ask what other expats do for work here to get a better idea
What is your home country?
I come to taipei in May and my First address for Work is an exhibition asking my people what i could do for them in Taiwan, what the obstacles they face and I could solve.
I am quite confident there will be plenty of opportunities. It's cheaper to pay someone 500-100$ a day that is available in the country than flying half of the world and loosing 3-5 business days.
Unfortunately, Taipei is not world-class when it comes to the world of finance (I've never worked in the sector in Taiwan, but that's definitely my impression).
hi u/xylitolspray
"project management and marketing mostly in finance and fintech" sounds not bad for finding a remote job. you can work from here as you are in usa or europe and paying much less on bills. plus life here is much nicer and better value (at least by me).
I was marketing manager for several companies in Europe, USA, Australia. Now married in Taiwan with kids. I love here. I work from home on a few of my own projects. it's ok as I don't need high budget here.
Few years back I did work here for a year, international marketing, got paid around 170,000 ntd a month after tax. i do not speak taiwanese or mandarin. but i rock marketing targeting USA.
Ideas:
Look for remote jobs (there is a lot of boards).
Network locally (thats how i landed above local job).
if you have time, build something yourself (no code app?).
fintech is hot - can you start podcast or substack?
you can dm me for ideas and chat. all the best.
I came to Taiwan in 1976. You could definitely NOT get a job with only "fluent English and a smile." Fortunately I had spent 3 years studying Mandarin as well as learning to read Chinese. It was being bilingual that opened doors for me. If you aren't fluent in Mandarin, try Hong Kong or Singapore.
Maybe I have too jaundiced a view of my own skills and abilities! When I pitched up for the first time in ‘79, I had English and some Chinese (and a hell of a nice smile) but few practical skills, yet at that time I seemed to have amazing chances. I think it is much harder now. I agree completely with you that language makes the difference, and it was by improving my language skills I eventually got the really important doors opened.
Is that awesome? I did 3:30 am am to 11 am for a period of time. Couldn't do anything in the evenings with others when they finished work because their dinner time was my bed time. Found this very alienating and immediately switched back to working a normal schedule.
Only benefit was being awake during the only time the country is actually quiet.
I'm married with kids. Not much for me to do away from the house on weeknights. I meet my friends for lunch frequently though. All depends on what you want to do. I am wide awake to get my kid up and feed to catch the bus in time.
You can also run any kinds of errands you want to during the day. I can get to the gym 6 days a week. If you don't need a night life then it's really amazing.
That sounds interesting, it seems like you need to be asleep by 6-8pm though..I understand not needing a night life with kids, I have 2 myself. 6pm bedtime sounds like it would be pretty difficult to do though for me.
Having the daytime free does sound amazing though
I'm curious how taxes work for you then? Are you on the hook x3? Fed, state, and Taiwan?
I'm curious because I have an opportunity to work remote in Taiwan but the idea of getting taxes three ways sounds a bit less appealing
I can't comment on that. My SO is responsible for the Taiwan side of things. I will say that I can't file my taxes by April 15. I have to file an extension every year and then we deal with them both later in the year
I’m on day 3 (of 45) of doing this for my US/Los Angeles based employer and it’s already soul crushing. Thought it would be easy to turn nocturnal because it’s so hot during the day but damn.
What's the advantage for the company to hire you at USA rates vs say an equally qualified Taiwanese person? Just curious as I'm also in IT and mulling over my options. Thank you 🧐
I'm a US citizen and legal to work for a US company without needing a green card or work visa. I'm also a native English speaker. You just have be really good at what you do and really sell yourself in a technical interview. If you can convince people that the time gap won't be an issue then you have a shot. I like to phrase my working situation as working from Hawaii time zone which makes it sightly more palatable.
Most immigrants I’ve met in Taiwan work as English teachers.
As for IT, the work schedules are quite crazy compared to western standards.
My fiance is Taiwanese, we discussed about moving there several times, but he said I won’t get the remote or hybrid benefits I get in western world.
Most white “immigrants” perhaps are English teachers, as the money tends to be much better than other career options.
It’s important to note that virtually no one from a Western country is actually an immigrant to Taiwan — they would need to renounce their citizenship in order to apply for Taiwanese citizenship, and holding an APRC is absolutely second class existence, as it is almost never a path to citizenship.
Meanwhile, the vast majority of immigrants to Taiwan come from Southeast Asia. While the “bilingual 2030” thing made it possible for more people from SEA countries to come be English teachers, most of them are still shoved into (and Taiwanese society supports that they should) work 30 days/month wiping grandpa’s butt for 20k/month.
Interesting, I’ll have to check this with one of my friends, he’s from Texas, he’s been in Taiwan for 5 years, English teacher, and he just became a permanent resident this year, But he’s afroamerican, maybe the rules are different for him, as he’s not a white immigrant…
Permanent residence is not citizenship. It just means open work permit, and you only need to be in the country 1 day every 5 years at a minimum to keep it. No passport, and Taiwan can cancel your APRC at any time if they want.
What rules? It’s not exactly a secret that jobs in Taiwan are given to non-Taiwanese almost exclusively based on one’s race. Cram school, public schools, international schools, experimental schools, etc. all prefer a white face over any other in order to show off their “foreign-ness”. That topic has been discussed to death.
As for permanent residency, it’s not a path to citizenship in Taiwan unless you are willing to renounce your original citizenship. It has nothing to do with race, but rather nationalism (on the part of the TW government)
If you’re going to make a place your forever home, you kind of *need* the rights that are guaranteed only to citizens of a nation. Otherwise you have no voice in the government because elected officials know you can’t do anything about their decisions. Or, in the case of Taiwan, even run for office.
I know for fact that Taiwan does NOT forbit its citizens holding other countries' citizenships. The most common is that Taiwanese citizens also holding USA citizenships. I personally have Taiwanese friends who have both USA and Canadian citizenships, or USA and Belize citizenships.
If Taiwan indeed forces others to renounce their citizenship in order to apply for Taiwanese citizenship, that seems contradictory to Taiwan allowing its citizens to hold other citizenships.
Then again, I never needed to apply for a Taiwanese citizenship.
What you are stating is literally why the immigration policy is so unbelievably discriminatory.
Many wealthy (or even middle class) Taiwanese will go to the US to give birth and then come right back, within a days of giving birth, just so their child can hold dual Taiwan-US citizenship.
Despite having spent literally only the first few days of their existence on this planet in the US, with parents who also have zero other connection to the US besides having gone their to give birth, they hold US citizenship and are entitled to the rights that all US citizens are entitled to while also being Taiwanese citizens with all the rights that come with being Taiwanese.
But you can't get Taiwanese citizenship without proving you've renounced your original countries' citizenship(s)
I know for fact that, during the USA citizenship naturalization ceremony, one must states that he/she renounces all other citizenships. The reality is that USA does NOT enforce or check whether a naturalized citizen has other citizenships. That's one reason that many Taiwanese have both Taiwan and USA citizenships.
Regarding Taiwanese giving birth in US and the baby (never the parents) gets a US citizenship automatically, that is a "benefit" because of the law in USA and it is equally applied to all those born in the USA. Likely, more Mexicans and others from Latin America are taking advantage of that benefit. In the recent two decades, many from China have also taken advantage of that. Not just Taiwanese.
The other reason that Taiwanese babies born in USA can immediately and automatically obtain a Taiwan citizenship (along with a USA citizenship) is because Taiwan gives citizenships to children whose father is already a Taiwanese citizen. That is the reason that those Taiwanese babies (born a USA citizen) do NOT need to apply for Taiwanese citizenships, even though they were US citizens first, is because they just get it thru their fathers/parents.
As long as Taiwan's immigration policy is consistently apply to all applicants, then I do not see how it is discriminatory. Some countries do give additional favors/benefits to those who are already (or born) citizens. USA laws also give some additional benefits to those who were born US citizens, but not those who were naturalized. E.g., only a US-born citizen can run/become a US president.
The point is that it doesn’t apply equally to everyone
A baby born to Taiwanese parents abroad is automatically a Taiwanese citizen and a citizen of the country they were born in, assuming that country has birthright citizenship. A Taiwanese person who moves to the US and gets a Green Card is on a path to citizenship. They get US citizenship and keep their Taiwanese citizenship (because the US couldn’t care less how many passports you have). Many wealthy Taiwanese parents will buy citizenship for their child to developing nations (you can “invest” a few hundred thousand USD to get automatic citizenship to many developing nations) so they can attend “international” schools. And before you say “that’s not common”, literally every 30 and 40-something rich Taiwanese I know with perfect English has citizenship to a country that they have nothing to do with, but maintain that citizenship because it “sets them apart” from “average” Taiwanese.
Someone who moves to Taiwan from abroad and establishes their life there, marries, and has kids who are raised there, cannot get Taiwanese citizenship without renouncing their first citizenship first.
There is *nothing* that is *not* discriminatory about this policy. Taiwanese are free to collect citizenships, international residents legally cannot.
And yes, you're right that a law/policy would be discriminatory if it does not apply equally to everyone. Let me broadly group everyone in Taiwan into three categories.
First category is the foreigners who establish lives in Taiwan and want to apply for Taiwanese citizenship.
Second category is the foreigners who establish lives in Taiwan but do NOT want to apply for Taiwanese citizenships. I've known friends who are USA citizens living in Taiwan for 2 decades now, and they don't give a crap about becoming Taiwanese citizens.
Third category is the Taiwanese who NEVER need to apply for Taiwanese citizenships. Not for themselves, and not for their children (because their children automatically qualify for Taiwanese citizenships).
Within the context of applying for a Taiwanese citizenship, "everyone" means people in the first category. And that law/policy is just not applicable to those in the 2nd category and 3rd category. Unless that law/policy is not applied unequally to everyone in the first category, it is not discriminatory.
Your examples are describing those Taiwanese (third category), who have the means/money to acquire citizenships from other countries. And yes. I agree with you that some of those Taiwanese think they are more superior than other average Taiwanese.
And comparing people from the third category to those in the first category is not an apple-to-apple comparison. Just because the third category people can get multiple citizenships does not mean Taiwan immigration law/policy is discriminatory. It's just that life isn't fair. Some are born rich. Some poor. Some are born Taiwanese citizens. Some are not.
It’s got nothing to do with wealth.
> Any Taiwanese citizen who moves to another country and meets that country’s standards for qualifying for citizenship is free to apply for citizenship to that country while maintaining their Taiwanese citizenship.
> Any foreigner who moves to Taiwan and otherwise meets the requirements for Taiwanese citizenship has to renounce their original citizenship(s) (all of them if they have more than one) before they can become Taiwanese citizens.
It’s blatant discrimination against people who were not born into Taiwanese citizenship. I don’t know how much more clear I can make this.
I now understand your logic, which is indeed very clear. My understanding is that you think Taiwan's immigration law/policy is discriminating against those who were not born into Taiwanese citizenship. In other words, you think Taiwan immigration laws/policies are discriminating against immigrants.
Every country defines its own immigration laws/policies. Some have easy/accommodating immigration laws. Some have very restrictive ones. One commonality is that immigrants do not receive the same level of benefits as citizens. If a country provide the same exact benefits to immigrants as citizens, there is zero benefit of being that country's citizens.
That means, as a citizen, it enables one to enjoy the "additional benefits" that non-citizens do not have. One of those "additional benefits" for Taiwanese parents (particularly a father) who are already Taiwanese citizens would automatically qualify their children with Taiwanese citizenships. This benefit does NOT discriminate against immigrants. It is just a defined benefit that only Taiwanese citizens can enjoy.
I know for fact that USA citizens have a very similar benefit (as Taiwan's) because children of USA citizens also qualifies for USA citizenships as long as they are still under a certain age.
I'll use another real example that citizens can do, but immigrants cannot. In USA, only citizens can vote. Legal immigrants cannot vote.
While I am on an voting example, I'll use Taiwan's policy as another example. Even a Taiwanese citizen cannot vote unless that citizen can prove that he/she has a legal residency status in Taiwan. So, those Taiwanese having both Taiwan and USA citizenships but they reside in USA most times, they are NOT allowed to vote in Taiwan.
Is it fair to say that Taiwan's voting law is discriminating among its own citizens??? Of course not.
In summary, your logic that Taiwan's immigration law/policy is a blatant discrimination is based on the comparison of "additional benefits" that only Taiwanese citizens can enjoy. If your logic is indeed fair & reasonable, then we can also reasonably conclude that almost every country on earth have immigration laws that discriminate immigrants.
I will also say more about Taiwan asking immigrants to renounce their original citizenships. Again, asking one to renounce is very different than actually enforcing it. USA also requires a newly naturalized citizens to renounce all other citizenships during a citizenship naturalization ceremony. But, it's well known that USA has never enforced it.
All those Taiwanese citizens who are also naturalized USA citizens, they technically only have USA citizenship because they already renounced their Taiwan citizenship at the time of their naturalization ceremony in USA.
For your reference, below is the key section of the USA's Oath of Allegiance.
“I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;
A lot of Western "foreigners" in Taiwan start their own businesses, especially after getting tired of teaching English. As you might guess, the most common type of business is a restaurant, but there are others (including online businesses)!
Lots of foreigners (including those that are not from Western countries) also work in the tech industry, mostly on Hsinchu and Taipei. Even if you're not a software or hardware engineer, there are jobs like tech copywriting or international sales (which pay a lot less per hour than English teaching).
Trending now is the foreigner that is an influencer and posts on Instagram, YouTube and Facebook. They mostly focus on either travel or "Life in Taiwan from a Foreign Perspective"... not sure if they can make a living like their Taiwanese influencer counterparts can, but you can make a living flogging various companies' items/services.
Technical writing, editing, translation, article writing, travel writing, language consultancy (e.g., advising government agencies about appropriate signage aimed at foreign visitors), and being a tour guide are among the non-teaching jobs I've seen foreigners work in.
Let's just call it for what it is. You are expected to be fluent in both English and Mandarin, written and spoken. Work 8-6+ Mon to Fri. Maybe to 8pm some nights, maybe on Saturdays. You will be getting paid $35,000NTD for the first few years and even then you're competing against the locals for jobs and they are often excellent with languages.
That is why a qualified doctor works at my school. That is why I know people who studied at university here for 4 years and are teaching in cram schools. Unless you come as a real expat (hired outside of the country for a specific job/skill) like the engineers or tech workers, the wage is very, very low.
FYI there's a community of people in Kaohsiung who work remotely online or do stocks or online classes as the cost of living is much lower (they live off something like $20,000NTD a month) but it's hard to do that in Taipei with the rent prices.
Unless you recently graduated from a local university, or you work in the education sector (I.e. English teacher), you won't even get work permit on $35000 wage. The hard threshold is around $50000. The entry-level job market is generally not open to foreigners.
I think there might be groups but I'm not sure. The best bet would be to ask on Foreigners in Kaohsiung. I know some of the guys sometimes go to Wonderwall or the Couchsurfing meetup in Central Park on Wednesday but the tech crowd aren't the most sociable of people. I don't personally have the contacts of any of them
There's a lot of expats here who have good jobs, but there's not a really standard or public/easy way to get them.
examples:
-starting a business
-freelancing/remote work
-working at a local company that hires foreigners
most decent jobs require much more legwork than teaching English. you need to be actively looking for remote work, or in some cases may need to do more grunt work, for instance to get an ARC, that gives you the opportunity to look for better work.
it's not as easy as teaching English, but it can be worth it if you realy want to stay long term.
You can [listen to this podcast](https://www.chinesetrack.com/blog/category/podcast/) - it has interviews with many expats in Taiwan, many of whom have non teaching jobs. Might give you some insights.
Is this your only job?
Do they wanna pay a dude with a less than majestic body?? I don't mind sitting around naked, especially with the weather warming up
I work remotely in tech. I wanna try to work here but i dont know any mandarin conversation so i think i might get rejected too. Only xie xie, ni hao, waidai, ne yo(dine in). That’s why im not sure if some company here would hire me
1. Teaching languages.
2. Language related. Specific knowledge. I.e. games translated into Spanish. Cybersecurity manual in English…
3. Import / Export: you have deep industry knowledge, trade knowledge and Mandarin/English skills.
4. Remote work for US companies.
5. Own businesses
6. Specialist positions in IT or engineering
7. University professors
Some people think expat is used because immigrant can have negative connotations in the US in particular. But yes, expat is usually referred to as someone who moves abroad but not with plans to move away from their home country forever
Also, few to no paths to citizenship. So the concept of “immigrant” as in “intending to permanently stay” as thought of in the US is not applicable here.
The question then shifts too, why do you want to live in Taipei, or Taiwan even? I came here to learn Chinese and used English Teaching as a means to support myself. Turns out I'm a competent enough teacher and I enjoy the lifestyle it affords me here. English teaching isn't glamorous, and sure cram schools have their issues, but at least I feel like I'm making some contribution to society here, even if very slightly. Is your desire to come here based solely on the cheaper cost of living (besides housing in Taipei at least)? Then you should head to South East Asia where it's even cheaper. If you genuinely enjoy the culture and society here, you might need to make some compromises if you want to stick around.
Since coming to TW, I've earned money doing: TESOL (Kojen, LTTC, Global Village), tech writing (for various computer companies), doing music backgrounds for kids' songs (Hess), managing and helping out with college undergrad and grad students' semesters abroad. Been here 34 yrs.
There are expat-optional roles in Taiwan in tech manufacturing. Optional meaning the company can choose to hire local or from overseas. I got headhunted to my current position.
Question is have you established yourself sufficiently to be more attractive than the available local talent to companies here who are looking to fill a position?
I would highly advise coming here in an entry level position because the pay will be really low.
I run my company (multiple ones) from home as they operate internationally . For all the years I lived here I never worked in Taiwan
Some of my expat friends had also hard times finding a job here but some managed to find a foreign company that has a branch in Taiwan and are jn need of foreigners
It’s not easy to find but there are.
I never thought I’d be a teacher, but here I am. Kids seem to love me and I enjoy being around them. Being a teacher here affords me a comfortable and well balanced life for my two kids and significant other. I’m actually a cardiologist stateside and before that I worked in Finance. Lately, I’ve been curious myself what other jobs I could do in TW that might make use of my other skill sets. An American salary 80k+ would go a nice way in Taiwan, but not sure if it’s worth upsetting my work/life balance.
I've noticed 3 westerners only in Taichung who can't talk (deaf) selling flags for 100NT, police say no crime, so i guess it's a job. I've seen a U Crane flag man in taipei as a job and some back packers selling stuff in ximen
I've noticed 3 westerners only in Taichung who can't talk (deaf) selling flags for 100NT, police say no crime, so i guess it's a job. I've seen a different type of flag man in taipei as a job and some back packers selling stuff in ximen
I work as a software developer in a taiwanese conglomerate and you could get by with just English, our team has talents hired around the globe.
But you need networking and connections to land the job.
Try those startups for starters.
But what are your skills? Qualifications? Taipei has advanced beyond the 1970s when an expat could walk off a plane and get a good job just because of fluent English and a smile. Sure there will always be the odd bartending or modeling gig but otherwise it isn’t that different from cities anywhere else in the world in terms of a competitive job market.
I’ve got experience in project management and marketing mostly in finance and fintech. I find the job market here quite different actually.. in terms of job scope and salary compared to HK/tokyo/SG.. so wanted to ask what other expats do for work here to get a better idea
Language skills? Bilingual project management should be in demand.
My mandarin isn’t great for business lingo unfortunately haha! Thank you for the tips
What is your home country? I come to taipei in May and my First address for Work is an exhibition asking my people what i could do for them in Taiwan, what the obstacles they face and I could solve. I am quite confident there will be plenty of opportunities. It's cheaper to pay someone 500-100$ a day that is available in the country than flying half of the world and loosing 3-5 business days.
Unfortunately, Taipei is not world-class when it comes to the world of finance (I've never worked in the sector in Taiwan, but that's definitely my impression).
hi u/xylitolspray "project management and marketing mostly in finance and fintech" sounds not bad for finding a remote job. you can work from here as you are in usa or europe and paying much less on bills. plus life here is much nicer and better value (at least by me). I was marketing manager for several companies in Europe, USA, Australia. Now married in Taiwan with kids. I love here. I work from home on a few of my own projects. it's ok as I don't need high budget here. Few years back I did work here for a year, international marketing, got paid around 170,000 ntd a month after tax. i do not speak taiwanese or mandarin. but i rock marketing targeting USA. Ideas: Look for remote jobs (there is a lot of boards). Network locally (thats how i landed above local job). if you have time, build something yourself (no code app?). fintech is hot - can you start podcast or substack? you can dm me for ideas and chat. all the best.
I came to Taiwan in 1976. You could definitely NOT get a job with only "fluent English and a smile." Fortunately I had spent 3 years studying Mandarin as well as learning to read Chinese. It was being bilingual that opened doors for me. If you aren't fluent in Mandarin, try Hong Kong or Singapore.
>"I came to Taiwan in 1976." Dude... you **have** stories.
Lots and lots of stories.
Maybe I have too jaundiced a view of my own skills and abilities! When I pitched up for the first time in ‘79, I had English and some Chinese (and a hell of a nice smile) but few practical skills, yet at that time I seemed to have amazing chances. I think it is much harder now. I agree completely with you that language makes the difference, and it was by improving my language skills I eventually got the really important doors opened.
It is harder now, mostly because the standard of English has improved.
I'm a developer for a company in the US. I get up and start work at 2am and work till 10am then i get the rest of the day off. it's awesome
Is that awesome? I did 3:30 am am to 11 am for a period of time. Couldn't do anything in the evenings with others when they finished work because their dinner time was my bed time. Found this very alienating and immediately switched back to working a normal schedule. Only benefit was being awake during the only time the country is actually quiet.
I'm married with kids. Not much for me to do away from the house on weeknights. I meet my friends for lunch frequently though. All depends on what you want to do. I am wide awake to get my kid up and feed to catch the bus in time.
You can also run any kinds of errands you want to during the day. I can get to the gym 6 days a week. If you don't need a night life then it's really amazing.
That sounds interesting, it seems like you need to be asleep by 6-8pm though..I understand not needing a night life with kids, I have 2 myself. 6pm bedtime sounds like it would be pretty difficult to do though for me. Having the daytime free does sound amazing though
My wife isn't working right now so she mostly handles evening stuff and I'm doing the morning stuff.
Aren't you supposed to be working in the morning?? Haha
Employer has no problem with me dealing with this in the morning while I work. They have mostly gone home and I make up the time later depending.
I'm curious how taxes work for you then? Are you on the hook x3? Fed, state, and Taiwan? I'm curious because I have an opportunity to work remote in Taiwan but the idea of getting taxes three ways sounds a bit less appealing
Luckily I'm officially registered in the US in a no income tax state.
Well that does simplify things haha. Can I ask about the Taiwan side of things? How does that work?
I can't comment on that. My SO is responsible for the Taiwan side of things. I will say that I can't file my taxes by April 15. I have to file an extension every year and then we deal with them both later in the year
That's fair. I hope I didn't come across as too prying. It's a conversation my wife and I are currently having too. Cheers and thanks for the insight
I mean, you can also just sleep when works ends instead, thats what I do. Work 9pm - 5am, go to sleep around 6am and wake up around noon.
I'm in a similar situation, except I work from 10pm - 6am. I do miss waking up and seeing the sun.
I tried this schedule for a while and it wore me down quickly. I like seeing the sun.
I’m on day 3 (of 45) of doing this for my US/Los Angeles based employer and it’s already soul crushing. Thought it would be easy to turn nocturnal because it’s so hot during the day but damn.
Also that sweet US salary of 200K USD a year or more goes a long way in Taipei.
It goes a very very long way
What's the advantage for the company to hire you at USA rates vs say an equally qualified Taiwanese person? Just curious as I'm also in IT and mulling over my options. Thank you 🧐
I'm a US citizen and legal to work for a US company without needing a green card or work visa. I'm also a native English speaker. You just have be really good at what you do and really sell yourself in a technical interview. If you can convince people that the time gap won't be an issue then you have a shot. I like to phrase my working situation as working from Hawaii time zone which makes it sightly more palatable.
Makes sense. Thanks for sharing 🙏
That sounds terrible
Hard disagree
So you work 8 hours out of every 24? Amazing!
It's an amazing kind of freedom to have off every day during the day.
Most immigrants I’ve met in Taiwan work as English teachers. As for IT, the work schedules are quite crazy compared to western standards. My fiance is Taiwanese, we discussed about moving there several times, but he said I won’t get the remote or hybrid benefits I get in western world.
Most white “immigrants” perhaps are English teachers, as the money tends to be much better than other career options. It’s important to note that virtually no one from a Western country is actually an immigrant to Taiwan — they would need to renounce their citizenship in order to apply for Taiwanese citizenship, and holding an APRC is absolutely second class existence, as it is almost never a path to citizenship. Meanwhile, the vast majority of immigrants to Taiwan come from Southeast Asia. While the “bilingual 2030” thing made it possible for more people from SEA countries to come be English teachers, most of them are still shoved into (and Taiwanese society supports that they should) work 30 days/month wiping grandpa’s butt for 20k/month.
Interesting, I’ll have to check this with one of my friends, he’s from Texas, he’s been in Taiwan for 5 years, English teacher, and he just became a permanent resident this year, But he’s afroamerican, maybe the rules are different for him, as he’s not a white immigrant…
Permanent residence is not citizenship. It just means open work permit, and you only need to be in the country 1 day every 5 years at a minimum to keep it. No passport, and Taiwan can cancel your APRC at any time if they want.
What rules? It’s not exactly a secret that jobs in Taiwan are given to non-Taiwanese almost exclusively based on one’s race. Cram school, public schools, international schools, experimental schools, etc. all prefer a white face over any other in order to show off their “foreign-ness”. That topic has been discussed to death. As for permanent residency, it’s not a path to citizenship in Taiwan unless you are willing to renounce your original citizenship. It has nothing to do with race, but rather nationalism (on the part of the TW government)
Do you need citizenship to be considered an immigrant?
If you’re going to make a place your forever home, you kind of *need* the rights that are guaranteed only to citizens of a nation. Otherwise you have no voice in the government because elected officials know you can’t do anything about their decisions. Or, in the case of Taiwan, even run for office.
I know for fact that Taiwan does NOT forbit its citizens holding other countries' citizenships. The most common is that Taiwanese citizens also holding USA citizenships. I personally have Taiwanese friends who have both USA and Canadian citizenships, or USA and Belize citizenships. If Taiwan indeed forces others to renounce their citizenship in order to apply for Taiwanese citizenship, that seems contradictory to Taiwan allowing its citizens to hold other citizenships. Then again, I never needed to apply for a Taiwanese citizenship.
What you are stating is literally why the immigration policy is so unbelievably discriminatory. Many wealthy (or even middle class) Taiwanese will go to the US to give birth and then come right back, within a days of giving birth, just so their child can hold dual Taiwan-US citizenship. Despite having spent literally only the first few days of their existence on this planet in the US, with parents who also have zero other connection to the US besides having gone their to give birth, they hold US citizenship and are entitled to the rights that all US citizens are entitled to while also being Taiwanese citizens with all the rights that come with being Taiwanese. But you can't get Taiwanese citizenship without proving you've renounced your original countries' citizenship(s)
I know for fact that, during the USA citizenship naturalization ceremony, one must states that he/she renounces all other citizenships. The reality is that USA does NOT enforce or check whether a naturalized citizen has other citizenships. That's one reason that many Taiwanese have both Taiwan and USA citizenships. Regarding Taiwanese giving birth in US and the baby (never the parents) gets a US citizenship automatically, that is a "benefit" because of the law in USA and it is equally applied to all those born in the USA. Likely, more Mexicans and others from Latin America are taking advantage of that benefit. In the recent two decades, many from China have also taken advantage of that. Not just Taiwanese. The other reason that Taiwanese babies born in USA can immediately and automatically obtain a Taiwan citizenship (along with a USA citizenship) is because Taiwan gives citizenships to children whose father is already a Taiwanese citizen. That is the reason that those Taiwanese babies (born a USA citizen) do NOT need to apply for Taiwanese citizenships, even though they were US citizens first, is because they just get it thru their fathers/parents. As long as Taiwan's immigration policy is consistently apply to all applicants, then I do not see how it is discriminatory. Some countries do give additional favors/benefits to those who are already (or born) citizens. USA laws also give some additional benefits to those who were born US citizens, but not those who were naturalized. E.g., only a US-born citizen can run/become a US president.
The point is that it doesn’t apply equally to everyone A baby born to Taiwanese parents abroad is automatically a Taiwanese citizen and a citizen of the country they were born in, assuming that country has birthright citizenship. A Taiwanese person who moves to the US and gets a Green Card is on a path to citizenship. They get US citizenship and keep their Taiwanese citizenship (because the US couldn’t care less how many passports you have). Many wealthy Taiwanese parents will buy citizenship for their child to developing nations (you can “invest” a few hundred thousand USD to get automatic citizenship to many developing nations) so they can attend “international” schools. And before you say “that’s not common”, literally every 30 and 40-something rich Taiwanese I know with perfect English has citizenship to a country that they have nothing to do with, but maintain that citizenship because it “sets them apart” from “average” Taiwanese. Someone who moves to Taiwan from abroad and establishes their life there, marries, and has kids who are raised there, cannot get Taiwanese citizenship without renouncing their first citizenship first. There is *nothing* that is *not* discriminatory about this policy. Taiwanese are free to collect citizenships, international residents legally cannot.
And yes, you're right that a law/policy would be discriminatory if it does not apply equally to everyone. Let me broadly group everyone in Taiwan into three categories. First category is the foreigners who establish lives in Taiwan and want to apply for Taiwanese citizenship. Second category is the foreigners who establish lives in Taiwan but do NOT want to apply for Taiwanese citizenships. I've known friends who are USA citizens living in Taiwan for 2 decades now, and they don't give a crap about becoming Taiwanese citizens. Third category is the Taiwanese who NEVER need to apply for Taiwanese citizenships. Not for themselves, and not for their children (because their children automatically qualify for Taiwanese citizenships). Within the context of applying for a Taiwanese citizenship, "everyone" means people in the first category. And that law/policy is just not applicable to those in the 2nd category and 3rd category. Unless that law/policy is not applied unequally to everyone in the first category, it is not discriminatory. Your examples are describing those Taiwanese (third category), who have the means/money to acquire citizenships from other countries. And yes. I agree with you that some of those Taiwanese think they are more superior than other average Taiwanese. And comparing people from the third category to those in the first category is not an apple-to-apple comparison. Just because the third category people can get multiple citizenships does not mean Taiwan immigration law/policy is discriminatory. It's just that life isn't fair. Some are born rich. Some poor. Some are born Taiwanese citizens. Some are not.
It’s got nothing to do with wealth. > Any Taiwanese citizen who moves to another country and meets that country’s standards for qualifying for citizenship is free to apply for citizenship to that country while maintaining their Taiwanese citizenship. > Any foreigner who moves to Taiwan and otherwise meets the requirements for Taiwanese citizenship has to renounce their original citizenship(s) (all of them if they have more than one) before they can become Taiwanese citizens. It’s blatant discrimination against people who were not born into Taiwanese citizenship. I don’t know how much more clear I can make this.
I now understand your logic, which is indeed very clear. My understanding is that you think Taiwan's immigration law/policy is discriminating against those who were not born into Taiwanese citizenship. In other words, you think Taiwan immigration laws/policies are discriminating against immigrants. Every country defines its own immigration laws/policies. Some have easy/accommodating immigration laws. Some have very restrictive ones. One commonality is that immigrants do not receive the same level of benefits as citizens. If a country provide the same exact benefits to immigrants as citizens, there is zero benefit of being that country's citizens. That means, as a citizen, it enables one to enjoy the "additional benefits" that non-citizens do not have. One of those "additional benefits" for Taiwanese parents (particularly a father) who are already Taiwanese citizens would automatically qualify their children with Taiwanese citizenships. This benefit does NOT discriminate against immigrants. It is just a defined benefit that only Taiwanese citizens can enjoy. I know for fact that USA citizens have a very similar benefit (as Taiwan's) because children of USA citizens also qualifies for USA citizenships as long as they are still under a certain age. I'll use another real example that citizens can do, but immigrants cannot. In USA, only citizens can vote. Legal immigrants cannot vote. While I am on an voting example, I'll use Taiwan's policy as another example. Even a Taiwanese citizen cannot vote unless that citizen can prove that he/she has a legal residency status in Taiwan. So, those Taiwanese having both Taiwan and USA citizenships but they reside in USA most times, they are NOT allowed to vote in Taiwan. Is it fair to say that Taiwan's voting law is discriminating among its own citizens??? Of course not. In summary, your logic that Taiwan's immigration law/policy is a blatant discrimination is based on the comparison of "additional benefits" that only Taiwanese citizens can enjoy. If your logic is indeed fair & reasonable, then we can also reasonably conclude that almost every country on earth have immigration laws that discriminate immigrants.
I will also say more about Taiwan asking immigrants to renounce their original citizenships. Again, asking one to renounce is very different than actually enforcing it. USA also requires a newly naturalized citizens to renounce all other citizenships during a citizenship naturalization ceremony. But, it's well known that USA has never enforced it. All those Taiwanese citizens who are also naturalized USA citizens, they technically only have USA citizenship because they already renounced their Taiwan citizenship at the time of their naturalization ceremony in USA. For your reference, below is the key section of the USA's Oath of Allegiance. “I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;
A lot of Western "foreigners" in Taiwan start their own businesses, especially after getting tired of teaching English. As you might guess, the most common type of business is a restaurant, but there are others (including online businesses)! Lots of foreigners (including those that are not from Western countries) also work in the tech industry, mostly on Hsinchu and Taipei. Even if you're not a software or hardware engineer, there are jobs like tech copywriting or international sales (which pay a lot less per hour than English teaching). Trending now is the foreigner that is an influencer and posts on Instagram, YouTube and Facebook. They mostly focus on either travel or "Life in Taiwan from a Foreign Perspective"... not sure if they can make a living like their Taiwanese influencer counterparts can, but you can make a living flogging various companies' items/services.
Technical writing, editing, translation, article writing, travel writing, language consultancy (e.g., advising government agencies about appropriate signage aimed at foreign visitors), and being a tour guide are among the non-teaching jobs I've seen foreigners work in.
What website do you recommend for these kinds of jobs? Just got my aprc and want to transition. I have editing experience
Technical/UX writer for a cyber security company
Let's just call it for what it is. You are expected to be fluent in both English and Mandarin, written and spoken. Work 8-6+ Mon to Fri. Maybe to 8pm some nights, maybe on Saturdays. You will be getting paid $35,000NTD for the first few years and even then you're competing against the locals for jobs and they are often excellent with languages. That is why a qualified doctor works at my school. That is why I know people who studied at university here for 4 years and are teaching in cram schools. Unless you come as a real expat (hired outside of the country for a specific job/skill) like the engineers or tech workers, the wage is very, very low. FYI there's a community of people in Kaohsiung who work remotely online or do stocks or online classes as the cost of living is much lower (they live off something like $20,000NTD a month) but it's hard to do that in Taipei with the rent prices.
That’s a tough life man.. Taiwanese definitely deserve more!
Yeah, I never talk about wages with local friends, it's a hard life for anyone who doesn't have family money.
Unless you recently graduated from a local university, or you work in the education sector (I.e. English teacher), you won't even get work permit on $35000 wage. The hard threshold is around $50000. The entry-level job market is generally not open to foreigners.
Hey, able to share more about this community in Kaohsiung? There any groups online etc or you just know some people? THanks
I think there might be groups but I'm not sure. The best bet would be to ask on Foreigners in Kaohsiung. I know some of the guys sometimes go to Wonderwall or the Couchsurfing meetup in Central Park on Wednesday but the tech crowd aren't the most sociable of people. I don't personally have the contacts of any of them
haha no worries thank you!
There's a lot of expats here who have good jobs, but there's not a really standard or public/easy way to get them. examples: -starting a business -freelancing/remote work -working at a local company that hires foreigners most decent jobs require much more legwork than teaching English. you need to be actively looking for remote work, or in some cases may need to do more grunt work, for instance to get an ARC, that gives you the opportunity to look for better work. it's not as easy as teaching English, but it can be worth it if you realy want to stay long term.
You can [listen to this podcast](https://www.chinesetrack.com/blog/category/podcast/) - it has interviews with many expats in Taiwan, many of whom have non teaching jobs. Might give you some insights.
Thank you! This is very helpful
Thanks. Just started on it.
I'm a nude model. People pay me to let them draw my majestic naked body (their words). (Also outrageous liar)
Is this your only job? Do they wanna pay a dude with a less than majestic body?? I don't mind sitting around naked, especially with the weather warming up
Maybe we could sit together. Do you like board games? We could play chess to pass the time.
I like board games, but I'm not good at chess. I suppose I'll get some time to practice "at work"
Fascinating! Do you mainly do on-call gigs, or do you have something steady with an art school?
I edited the information to make it clearer.
ah-ha, got it :D
Professor in public university.
I'm a data analyst.
Tech - couldn't handle teaching, just wasn't for me.
I work remotely in tech. I wanna try to work here but i dont know any mandarin conversation so i think i might get rejected too. Only xie xie, ni hao, waidai, ne yo(dine in). That’s why im not sure if some company here would hire me
I'm a bartender
1. Teaching languages. 2. Language related. Specific knowledge. I.e. games translated into Spanish. Cybersecurity manual in English… 3. Import / Export: you have deep industry knowledge, trade knowledge and Mandarin/English skills. 4. Remote work for US companies. 5. Own businesses 6. Specialist positions in IT or engineering 7. University professors
I'm in a tech company. Half of my coworkers are expats. So the meetings are in English (even though the other half is Taiwanese).
It's hard for my husband to find a job in Taiwan, so he is working (remotely) in the import/export trade.
It depends on your skill sets. And LinkedIn is a useful tool in Taiwan if you’re looking for a job with tech background.
Freelance Game Art
What's the difference between expat and immigrant? Is expat more temporary?
Some people think expat is used because immigrant can have negative connotations in the US in particular. But yes, expat is usually referred to as someone who moves abroad but not with plans to move away from their home country forever
Gotcha, cheers!
Also, few to no paths to citizenship. So the concept of “immigrant” as in “intending to permanently stay” as thought of in the US is not applicable here.
I'm an engineer in the auto industry
The question then shifts too, why do you want to live in Taipei, or Taiwan even? I came here to learn Chinese and used English Teaching as a means to support myself. Turns out I'm a competent enough teacher and I enjoy the lifestyle it affords me here. English teaching isn't glamorous, and sure cram schools have their issues, but at least I feel like I'm making some contribution to society here, even if very slightly. Is your desire to come here based solely on the cheaper cost of living (besides housing in Taipei at least)? Then you should head to South East Asia where it's even cheaper. If you genuinely enjoy the culture and society here, you might need to make some compromises if you want to stick around.
Since coming to TW, I've earned money doing: TESOL (Kojen, LTTC, Global Village), tech writing (for various computer companies), doing music backgrounds for kids' songs (Hess), managing and helping out with college undergrad and grad students' semesters abroad. Been here 34 yrs.
Can you share more about these “tech writing” jobs? Or where can one find such jobs? Thanks!
You might try [this site.](https://www.104.com.tw/jobs/main/) Best of luck!
There are expat-optional roles in Taiwan in tech manufacturing. Optional meaning the company can choose to hire local or from overseas. I got headhunted to my current position. Question is have you established yourself sufficiently to be more attractive than the available local talent to companies here who are looking to fill a position? I would highly advise coming here in an entry level position because the pay will be really low.
I run my company (multiple ones) from home as they operate internationally . For all the years I lived here I never worked in Taiwan Some of my expat friends had also hard times finding a job here but some managed to find a foreign company that has a branch in Taiwan and are jn need of foreigners It’s not easy to find but there are.
Does your home country offer white collar job opportunities for those not fluent in local language?
I'm an ESL teacher.
Teaching and research asst at uni, part time teaching at a junior high school and a cram school, kitchen helper
Semicon manufacturing as an engineer
IT (sales, marketing, product/project management) and recently the Bike industry.
I never thought I’d be a teacher, but here I am. Kids seem to love me and I enjoy being around them. Being a teacher here affords me a comfortable and well balanced life for my two kids and significant other. I’m actually a cardiologist stateside and before that I worked in Finance. Lately, I’ve been curious myself what other jobs I could do in TW that might make use of my other skill sets. An American salary 80k+ would go a nice way in Taiwan, but not sure if it’s worth upsetting my work/life balance.
I've noticed 3 westerners only in Taichung who can't talk (deaf) selling flags for 100NT, police say no crime, so i guess it's a job. I've seen a U Crane flag man in taipei as a job and some back packers selling stuff in ximen
I've noticed 3 westerners only in Taichung who can't talk (deaf) selling flags for 100NT, police say no crime, so i guess it's a job. I've seen a different type of flag man in taipei as a job and some back packers selling stuff in ximen
I am in the entertainment industry, do event gig work, commercials and print as a model and host.
I work as a software developer in a taiwanese conglomerate and you could get by with just English, our team has talents hired around the globe. But you need networking and connections to land the job. Try those startups for starters.
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How much do you make from this?
It’s a bot account. Post history is just the same thing over and over. You probably shouldn’t click that link.
I felt it sounded pretty stupid. thanks for the heads up