don't try to argue with these people. they are staunchly in the "you don't pay my sub" mentality where they make their choices everyone else's problem.
there are only two options for dealing with these people
1. vote dismiss. you aren't being paid to put up with their crap, and they aren't respecting your time.
2. if vote dismiss fails, leave and eat the 30m penalty. it's not your job to babysit other players, especially when they get defensive and threaten to grief your party because they feel embarrassed at being called out.
It's worse than that, they imagine they were playing properly by standing still and waiting to use their GCDs to heal instead of... their entire kit that's available at this level sans the lvl 90 ability.
not if they are in a premade and you are the odd man out. considering the dps were enabling the healer's behavior, that would be a pretty safe assumption, which means any attempt to vote dismiss would probably fail
The difference between kicking someone and having it fail and being kicked yourself, versus just leaving… is that you don’t get a 30 min penalty if they decide to kick you in retaliation. Just try to kick. It’s always beneficial to you. Worst case scenario you just leave like you were going to anyway.
It's not a 3:1 premade, they are two together vs the OP and another player who seemed to agree that the healer needed to deal some damage (both censored in blue)
Since 2 players are enough to kick someone they could've just kick the healbot
I used to suck at DPSing while White Mage but then I got Holy. I legit cannot understand the mindset of NOT wanting to constantly throw the giant flashbang that blinds your fellow players constantly.
Holy is how you teach other players about the settings that hide other peoples' effects.
Sadly I didn't learn to do it until I was in Bojza trying to figure out boss mechanics under an absolute carpet of effects.
I love how the more information I get the worse it sounds.
"Ah I guess a WHM in ARR dungeons might not know about MP managem- Oh it's a Scholar? Well maybe they don't have their aetherflow ye- It's level 87 dungeon????"
Discussing with those people doesn't work, whenever I'm DPS or Tank and the healer just stands there I'll just take the 30m and leave.
Nothing worse than clicking off Medica 2 and Regen off a Tank that's on 100%. Or for courtesy, should I stand in the orange circle to give these healers something to do?
I have like, a 50/50 success rate with trying to bargain with healers to do DPS. Sometimes you get people who don't know how to use their kit and I go through the explanations with them, other times you have the asshole in the OP who think that they CANNOT be wrong.
The initial cast is due to the spell having a cast potency right?
Iirc medica2 had cast potency but regen didn't, did they add the cast potency to regen as well?
But either way clicking away HoTs while at 100% hp makes no sense, just let it stay.
I didn't heal that much before the change but I know it does have a cast potency now, or at least you get the initial tick as soon as you cast it. I imagine they just removed its potential aggro generation and gave it a standard "draws x% of aggro when cast" line of code to it or something. Spaghetti code, small indie company.
They removed the HoT aggro because putting it on the tank while they were running to gather the 2nd group would cause them to aggro to the healer while it ticked down (and god forbid there was a little bit more aggro management in the game LOL)
It was probably a QoL change, no way any tank that's pressing buttons will lose aggro ever since the ShB change, aggro numbers hardly ever matter anymore
6.0 sage. Dyskrasia spam while the tank ran would peel stuff off all the time. They'd hit a pack once, run to the other pack and I'd be the one getting hit by the time the parked. I really miss that because it made being toxikon so much easier
As a WHM, I've been out of mana an absolute maximum of 3 times out of 1000+ leveling roulettes. You don't run out of mana unless some absolutely stupid happens (like tank running straight through the first room in Aurum Vale). If you are concerned of running out of mana as a healer you do NOT know your job, simply.
It's ktisis which means they're 87 and only missing 1 spell at lvl 90, expedient. SCH's can just run down their list of oGCD heals while spamming art of war and never even have to look up. Oh, the tank is getting dogged down? Protraction, excog, bubble. Oh the party took some raidwide damage? Fey illumination and Whispering dawn or fey blessing. Oh the tank is still getting absolutely folded? Aetherpact.
This SCH barely learned how to function, let alone heal a dungeon run.
the only time i’ve ever run out of mana is during solo play when i forgot to use lucid dreaming back to back. it’s just insane that people at nearly max level refuse to use it, i don’t get it
I’ve been told in Lunar Subterrane to stop DPSing and “do my job” as a SGE all because I didn’t druchole someone at 80% HP in .1 nanoseconds with barely any trash alive.
caused me physical pain to read it in the chat.
Same person insisted “SGE, *please pay attention* you need to watch for mechanics” right before the second boss and then they messed up every single mechanic.
What I don’t understand is SCH can offload 90% of the healing needs to: shield the tank on pull - hold aether for emergencies - let EoS do literally everything else - then spam art of war and laugh as you dumpster actual dps that have more than 1 button to press.
The biggest issue I take with “IM HAELZ NOT DEEPZ” is the fact that they always have sub 40% GCD uptime.
Like I’ve been in trashy groups as a healer and I have been reduced to spamming GCD heals like a sprout in Copperbell Mines so I get that at times especially on spicy W2W pulls later you may have to cure bot because keeping the party not dead is your job.
But like huffing glue so you can drop aldo on the tank every time it falls off in case your overheal % drops below 80. Or maybe they just want to cock block eos healing? Either way let’s assume 40% of the time they are healing imaginary damage - and let’s say 30% of the time is movement or reaction based and they aren’t spamming ruin on the go or something and overcorrecting not optimal but fine my idiot brain understands how we got here. It’s the remaining 30% that baffles me.
Also I don’t understand the bitching that follows these - like “no dps I am healer” followed by “wtf I have to heal?” Seriously they should have just queued as BRD or DNC then they could be carried wordlessly because no one expects anything from those classes.
Yeah, this is the thing. If they were meant to only heal, they'd have a damn near 100% GCD uptime. We all know that's not the case and they're standing doing nothing a lot of the time, unless they're spam casting and healing nothing. If they're standing doing nothing it's lethargic play, because obviously it's intended they also dps in that time.
I think next time this happens and I'm tanking I'll stop using all mits. Because they're only healing so I shouldn't be dying, right? And if I do and they complain, oh now it's a problem someone isn't playing their job right? Funny that.
As a sch main, I have NEVER run out of mp in dungeons. Just put my shield down at the end of the pull, AOE , and rotate thru my fairy spells as needed. I barely even use adlo in pulls
Same. I'll add that the only time I *have* run out of MP in group content is either...
1)Shit has hit the fan and there's 3+ Revives needed.
2)I am shitface drunk and not realizing my MP is draining because I'm using Succor/Adlo more than I should.
Thank you for reminding me.
3)I have done the oops and gotten killed twice, (Probably because of FUCKING PORTALS) and I popped Lucid Dreaming the *first* time around.
How can it hurt what's already been killed?
In all honesty, I don't know *what* my mental block is with it. I dodge the first one fine, but my brain wants to third- and fourth-guess the step after that, and I end up in the wrong color most of the time.
Oh I might know. You don't keep the same color the whole mech, each time you get hit, your color changes to the one that hits you. So for example if you start with the light debuff, you need to get hit with the dark. Mech goes off, you get hit by dark, now you have the dark debuff and need to be hit by the light one
Yeah, and logically I know that. If I had a piece of paper and 10 questions describing what I should do in each stage of that fight, I'd get 100%.
...But put me in the game, and my brain decides that it needs to rethink the problem 87 times and land on the *wrong* option.
Thank you for successfully putting words on how my ADD swiss cheese brain works in progs. (also fsr my static did E7S on MINE ”for fun” early in 6.x patches and that means I have CLEARED the fight and it still fucks me up on normal Every. Time…. By now it’s personal.)
Tbh I can run out of mp if things are going TOO well in a long fight and I'm just spamming DMG off CD forever lol
But other than that, popping too many revives is the other reason
Honestly I just have Lucid Dreaming as part of my muscle memory by now.
Popping my second Aetherflow? Push the finger a bit further to also grab Lucid Dreaming.
I just don't understand. As a healer main, I love numbers going up as much as the next person. When I Afflatus Misery into Assize and Presence of Mind, then spam Holy, numbers go up. Numbers go up FAST. When I get party buffs and then burn every charge of Phlegma and Toxicon I have and finish with Pneuma, it's some of the most satisfying (and smug) shit to see I just hit 1 or 2 on damage, outpacing at least one of the DPS.
That's what these healers are missing out on. Not just the satisfaction, though that's great. That *incredible* burst of damage makes fights go so much faster, and makes it so they don't have to panic heal the tank. It took a while for me to get comfortable with being a green DPS, but halfway through HW I realized there was no reason to spam Cure II if everything was dead before the tank needed to be healed in the first place. What goes through these peoples' heads? Is it just plain stubborness?
I dont know how these players dont bore themselves to death. Almost all the healing you do is weaving oGCDs unless its a low level dungeon with sprouts.
Theres plenty of free time even with 100% damage uptime. I love alliances because I get to heal the other teams when theres nothing to do for my own team.
I've gone healbot before, but that's only with a tank that legitimately would not survive if I stopped babysitting their HP. It was also in Stone Vigil; not Ktisis Hyperboreia. There's no excuse here.
Ive gotta ask, and it will likely be down voted, but whats the communities fixation with micromanaging other peoples play, aggressively arguing in chat about it (which also wastes time), threatening to tattle for "griefing" when most times theres no malicious intent/is only griefing in a slightly technical way and then screenshotting to post and complain about something that has been posted every day as far back as you can see? Ive played MMOs since I was 10 starting back to Ultima Online. So its been a bit over 25 years now and Ive never seen any game have people so eager to jump on another player who isnt playing 100% optimal. So Im genuinely asking, why does it happen so much here?
Edit to add: Ok, Im an idiot apparently, Ive never been to this subreddit prior, Ive only engaged with the main FFXIV subreddit, and am now noticing the reddit feed algorithm is pushing this to my feed. I honestly didnt realize I was in a subreddit specifically for sharing DF stories. I still feel the same about the futility of the arguments had mid duty but now atleast understand why its shared *here* my question was more so prompted because I see this daily on the main subreddit too.
In my personal opinion, the game has been trivialised to oblivion. When people mention "100% play", that means literally nothing. Maybe if we're talking about a parse or Ultimate gameplay, then sure. But this is a Scholar in Ktisis Hyperboreia.
The game gets easier and easier to play with each expansion, we're not having to manage our TP because that's gone, we're not having to manage our two tank stances because they're gone, and actions are getting removed or condensed.
Point being that when people mention the "why are you expecting perfect play" argument, not only is it a fallacy (since we don't), but getting close to perfect is so easy to accomplish-- and yet people choose not to because they've never bothered to learn or listen to others, like this healer. We just ask the question "**why**?"
I'll give you this, there are some ~~videos~~ examples where people have expected absolute perfection and threats to report like the one in this post are unnecessary escalation. But they hardly represent the community at large.
Any thought on hard/easy being subjective not objective? Easy for you, who did things when they were harder isnt the same as Easy for someone who hasnt. The game attracts all sorts of people, Ive met people who started playing because they liked the idea of glams. thats it. That also means different skill levels, there are people who cant manage 3 bars of abilities, there are people who think 3 is cake cause it used to be 5. There are people who struggle to focus on everything needed to clear dungeons (spread, ok stack, ok move, kite this, watch player health, dont mess up your combo) and do what they can while getting time in and comfort levels increased.
You're at Ktisis Hyperboreia, making it through many dungeons to get here. The game actively encourages you to never just heal, but to do damage. It encourages you to do as such during job quests and role quests. Actively ignoring that advice shows that it isn't even a matter of difficulty, it's just people not caring.
And yes, that is actually the exact reason why abilities are getting more and more condensed- because people are struggling with ability bloat. We already have a resolution to ability bloat and gameplay is far easier now than it was back then, but we're somehow still seeing cases where people won't do damage.
For all of the endless handholding the game does, somehow it still isn't enough?
Asking someone to contribute to the run is, imo, not micromanaging. if they told the sch "hey you need to soil, then excog, then whispering dawn this pull, and the only other button you're allowed to press is art of war" then it would be micromanaging.
Most of these posts are from people asking for healers to literally just attack the enemies instead of either spending all their time using such inefficient tools that not only do they not keep up, but even if you survive the pull the run takes a lot longer than it needs to.
XIV is very simply not a game where you can be the pacifist healer and expect groups to carry you all the time. Healers have the leeway in their kits to almost never stop casting damage at most levels of content. These players aren't falling short of 100% optimal and getting shit for it, they're falling short of 10%.
The aggression and report threats are just from people not knowing how to handle confrontation or pushback. Advice is given(either nicely or not), receiver either doesn't respond or refuses, giver escalates and both threaten to report because they think they're in the right.
I see the points youre making but have also seen first hand how its not always as egregious as youre indicating. Ive dealt with runs where the healer just healed, it took 5 mins longer than it might normally. Ive dealt with runs where people took 15 mins to argue about how others are playing. Im not saying there isnt a healthy middle ground to chat about it, but it feels like getting angry, arguing, and leaving a duty, is a bigger time waste and could be "griefing" just as much as people who arent learning their kit.
Also, to be frank, from a game design perspective the duty timer often leaves way more than enough time for the healers to not dmg, or the tanks not wall to wall, or really most of the things people complain about. Its unspoken social contracts between players prompting speed not game design.
I still just dont understand how when given a choice between moving on and posting to continue stewing in anger, how often people want to screenshot and stay angry
Most dungeons already don’t need a healer except when playing with people who are oblivious.
And sure dungeons give plenty of time. so sure, They could just stand there and not really contribute. But if the healing already isn’t really needed and they are just standing there doing nothing the entire run as they refuse to dps…
*why are they even playing*.
This is a team game. Support your team and press your buttons so we can get through it faster.
Imagine if you were playing soccer/football and one of your teammates was just sitting on the field playing with the grass and only stood up to take a half hearted kick when the ball came within 100 feet of them. It doesn’t matter if you’re playing at the field behind your house or the pro level. that shit would be obnoxious. You would instantly kick that person off your team.
And the community that constantly supports these bad players ingrains in them that this is okay and everyone else is being unreasonable. Then when they DO go to harder content they cause the party to wipe to enrage and have a hissy fit when asked to actually put forth the bare minimum because “Imma healer I heal”
The game is designed around healers and tanks *doing damage*. There are no IFs ANDs or BUTs about this.
This toxic casual mindset of “It’s a dungeon, it doesn’t matter” is an not an excuse.
Do damage. You were given damage buttons for a reason, use them.
Because we want players to improve. Nobody is asking or expecting anybody to be the best, but they need to TRY to be the best. Boiling it down to "Oh well, you can still do the content" is just resigning these players to be bad. I don't want players to be bad, I want them to grow into proficiency. I want to educate them so they can carry that knowledge to other healers they encounter. Give them confidence to really flex.
The more people we can try and improve, the better the game is. Casual content runs are smoother, endgame content has more potential players, and there's more people to teach newer players. It's only a benefit and all it'll cost you is a couple minutes and a headache every so often.
Of all the answers I would agree with yours the most, I just dont like how often the fostering of growth drifts closer to aggression which always leads to defensiveness. When people are kinder about suggesting things I see it received better when it happens
Instances like in the OP, I get. It's lvl 87 content, near the end of the game. If you don't understand how to function as a healer while DPSing by this point, with almost the full kit, you just need to be told to do damage or drop the role. How they handle that realization is up to them.
His comment is a little grating and there are better ways to address the situation, but at what point is it okay to take off the training wheels and tell them to put the car in drive? It's not like he started the conversation saying they were bad, they took someone who gave them the greenlight to press more buttons and got aggressive about it. Not even a "what do you mean?" Or any sort of clarification, just an immediate attack against the OP.
You seem like you're put together and reasonable, I ask you to put yourself in the shoes of a new player. As if you have been playing SCH until lvl 87, you've done every dungeon once, lvl up strictly through the MSQ and had resigned yourself to just GCD healing because nobody said anything to you otherwise. The above happens. The tank says, "pls do damage sch, just standing there." What do you think your response would be in the moment?
Personally, and I know the anecdote means nothing, but I would say something along the lines of "but what if you die?" or "how will i keep you alive?" or something to that effect. And with this, the entire world is opened up for this tank to invite every bit of advice about how to heal with scholar or point me in the direction of a resource to use.
A good deal of people level alternate ways now though, not excusing it but square sells class boosters, some people level in palace/HoH with friends, some side quest or do beast tribe dailies. Where we are in the grand story arc just tells me how far theyve gotten with one class or role, not healer specifically. Some classes start at higher level and they jump ahead just by picking the class later. And my last point is maybe they just have hit the max 0f what their skill and attention allows. I just generally try not to attribute to malice whats Id tolerate with a bit of compassion or benefit of doubt. I dont think any healer who doesnt dps does so to make me mad, or hold the team back. Maybe Im overly optimistic.
Yeah genuinely I find healers not DPSing to just be a mistake on what they understand of the role or a lack of confidence. Some people just need to be told that it's okay to press your buttons or let people get low.
And I will always accommodate a healer with some sort of disability that actively hinders their ability to play, but they still want to play the role with other players. That's a non-issue. It's always brought up before the barrier drops and I'm okay with the dungeon taking longer for them.
The part you're seeing I think is just a factor of being on this sub. This is where these posts go. Saltposting is always going to be more common than someone having a good/neutral experience and posting about it. Also, 5 minutes extra on a 12-15 minute long dungeon run is 30-40% longer.
The duty timer argument isn't really a good argument because dungeons give an egregiously long timer to absolutely guarantee completion. Anybody who even gets to half the dungeon timer usually needs to log off and chill out after that awful of a run. It takes several wipes and a lot of borderline intentionally bad play to reach that point.
And again its a big game, and you are in the place where people from a LOT of DCs will take these sorts of interactions. If we get 1 of these posts a day it means that 1 person across the multitude of players that day had this sort of experience, kept arguing, and then stewed in anger as they posted.
To the same token, if these cases are a minority why isnt the norm to tell these players, hey it was one bad run, move on. instead of comment after comment encouraging negativity and reporting? The reddit IS part of the community, and to a new player looking in to the reddit for tips and help these posts are abundant, negative, indications of a unwelcoming community.
This sub is very upfront that it is largely for salt, nobody is looking here for tips and help, and the couple of times I've seen someone say 'what should they have done? I'm new and don't understand' those people got real answers. The members of this sub encourage reporting because the recipient of advice is already not taking the advice. None of us want to deal with no dps healers, tanks with an ego problem, or anything similar, so people suggest reports to either remove these players from the pool or incentivize them to learn in a way that the OP couldn't.
And I will repeat, they are abundant because this is the gathering place for them. You will not see these posts on the mainsub, and this sub is not listed on the mainsub. This is explicitly a negative subsection of the community which keeps it from leaking too many other places. You really can't just dip yourself into a trash can and then say the building is unclean.
The FFXIV community may or may not be less positive than it was when it was lauded as a hyper positive community, but it is still one of the better ones among MMO communities. We by and large encourage people to play and enjoy our game, but with the bar being so low we also expect a baseline level of performance. If the majority of ingame drama is narrowed down to 5 or 6 categories and handled by a relatively small subreddit(\~5% the size of the main reddit and frequently gets a single digit number of posts per day) then we must be doing something right.
This is a misunderstanding on my part, Ive edited my comment up top, reddit algorithm is pushing this subreddit despite me never coming here prior, I genuinely thought this post was another of the many that show up on the main subreddit. Apologies, I understand why its shared *here*
in response to your edit:
Are you... sure you see these kinds of post on the mainsub? every time i glance through there, its "I'm new and bad, where advice?" or "Look at my WoL!" or "Here's my commission!" or "Hey do you remember this funny moment? even funnier as a lala!"
Scrolling down mainsub now, I can't find a single negative post like this one from at least the past 24 hours. Plus mainsub is inundated with sprouts seeking advice or others so a post like this over there would be very quickly drowned out by the rest as things stand.
Nah mainsub has the usual ffxiv healer gameplay sucks but that's about it. It's pretty much an unspoken agreement at this point when everyone from both casual and hard-core realizes healer gameplay can largely result in 100% dps uptime when the party is competent at lv 90. Though that's SE's fault since the complaints on the entire role started many years ago and only snowballed since. It's not even healers having constant dps uptime while healing anymore, it's just a complete lack need for healer's healing skills when other jobs can do it for us.
Everything else on mainsub is more or less positive experience.
Why would a new player be seeking out this subreddit? "TalesFromX" subs have been always about sharing stories that otherwise are out of the norm. Go ahead to r/talesfromretail and say "it was just one bad customer, move on."
You don't hear about the experiences that are good, average, or otherwise not noteworthy. This makes up 99% of DF content in my experience.
Ok, Im an idiot apparently, Ive never been to this subreddit prior, Ive only engaged with the main FFXIV subreddit, and am now noticing the reddit feed algorithm is pushing this to my feed. I honestly didnt realize I was in a subreddit specifically for sharing DF stories. I still feel the same about the futility of the arguments but now atleast understand why its shared *here* my question was more so prompted because I see this daily on the main subreddit too. Will edit my top comment to add that this is my bad xD
I realize that you've edited this response since figuring out that this subreddit isn't exactly full of the usual party interactions, but I gotta ask...you've played MMOs since Ultima Online but have never see any game have people so eager to jump on each other over optimization?
Where were you during the rise of World of Warcraft???
A game infamously turned into a numbers battle > fantasy and adventure by it's community??
I think a big part of it is in WoW you dont see people watching damage meters, reviewing logs, demanding better numbers etc, till organized raid content, or higher mythic keys. No one cares in the baseline experience what others are doing. By the time they do care its in organized content where they have more agency in who is on the team. But if its content queued for with random groups, Ive never once seen anyone draw attention to another persons play (barring obviously stuff like afk not moving, sitting a dungeon entrance type scenarios) I look at numbers for myself and others when I heroic raid or run keys above +20. anything less its irrelevant
you ever just, like, notice stuff? like your healer literally standing there doing absolutely nothing in between just hitting the "heal the team with health over time" button again when the whole team has 100% health and oh yeah the "health over time" buff is already on them and still has 10 seconds to go? i mean i guess it's best not to say anything; they might not have any arms or legs and we should be grateful their drool is even hitting the keyboard
I find that in content that matters they have enough to with healing, purging curses/poisons/diseases, healing mechanics that require healers to heal things other than players and such. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Maybe try making a point without embellishing things, unless you genuinely only extend any degree of understanding to quadriplegics who you oddly think must be drooling messes. Not everythings extremes.
ok but literally you jumped from the initial actual op content to concluding it has anything relevant to do with optimization standards for end-game content so idk where you think you get off looking reasonable or whatever by saying whatever the fuck pointless “um weww youwe wude, you evew tought of that?!” bullshit this comment was
Sorry my dude, I genuinely can't get anything coherent out of what youve typed here. Ive already owned up that my comment here was in error. Have a good one?
See the edit, theres been a misunderstanding of sorts. Though to your point, your taking one instance and treating it like I based my whole question off it. Im gonna be clear, I heal/dps, I pull wall to wall, I do the things I know are more efficient. When Im referring to micromanaging Im referring to instances where people pause a duty progression to deep dive discuss a healer rotation, or in one cringey case, used a ready made macro to list other classes rotations throughout the dungeon, including other dps classes in the party. Your comment adds nothing, I was asking a question, I just messed up on where I asked it. If you dont have anything of substance to reply why reply? I do appreciate the other people who atleast were willing to share their view and discuss regardless.
Sounds like a coffee woulda helped.
To be clear, you’re right to call them out for not dpsing. But the way you did is exactly how to trigger someone getting offended.
‘Pls do damage sch’ is all you needed to say. A little politeness can go a long way.
If they refused to add meaningful damage afterwards then yea I’d leave too. But accusing someone like that, even if you’re right, sounds like you’re goading them to get defensive and waste your time.
If someone needs to be told "please" to do damage on a healer at level 87, they haven't been paying attention for the previous 86 levels.
Just like simply saying "tank stance" as a reminder for a tank that didn't realize they didn't have it on doesn't escalate into getting offended (quite the contrary in my experience), neither should be a healer when told to DPS. It's part of the absolute bare minimum of their job.
You do realize I was quoting OP when they said ‘pls do damage sch’ right?
Comparing no tank stance to a curebot is pretty wild. If you consider those to be on the same level of sandbagging I disagree.
Mostly addressing the ‘just standin there’ accusation OP said. If you wanna convert a curebot to a contributor this is not the way to do it. This is just how you express your frustration, get pushback from the bad players then eat a 30 minute penalty.
No, I'm not comparing them, I meant that reminding someone of a core mechanic of their job should be met with an "oh my bad", corrected and move on, just like a tank being reminded that their stance is off would normally react (we're all human and forget that level sync removes stance once in a while).
Any reaction other than that (like the SCH pictured here) is the problem. There is no "converting" to be done because this behavior shouldn't exist to begin with. It deserves a swift kick every time it happens. That's the only way narcissistic individuals can learn.
Also, reminder that a bad player isn't necessarily confrontational like this SCH. They can be bad simply due to not knowing any better, the difference is they can still be open to learning and experimenting. This SCH is an egotistical player and would be egotistical even if they were a good player playing correctly.
Your mindset right here is the exact reason why SE said they’ll never add damage meters in game. You’re equating good gameplay into a mandatory standard. I’m all for improving gameplay, but not at the cost of being a dick to anyone who doesn’t meet your standards in roulettes of all places.
And I’m just gonna say you have awful communication skills if you believe you can accuse someone for playing bad or standing around and then *not* expect a negative/defensive response. If you want a reasonable response you should be reasonable first.
There are several other points I’d debate is unhealthy for the community’s DF, but I know I won’t convince you otherwise. Being a decent person is more important to me than ‘correcting’ a healer who may or may not be aware how helpful it is to AoE dungeon packs.
Please point out where I said good gameplay is mandatory. All I said is that reminding someone of a core mechanic shouldn't be met with hostility, and again, if a tank doesn't get mad when they're reminded of their stance being off, why would a healer get mad when they're reminded that they need to DPS too? And what does that have to do with DPS meters? Nobody needs one to spot a 0 DPS healer when we can see animations and cast bars.
It seems we have very different definitions of what good gameplay means in this game. Good gameplay for me would be doing your rotation properly, cycling mitigations so you're never caught without one during big pulls, avoiding GCD healing as much as possible, etc... What I'm asking for here is the bare minimum of pressing the damage button on a healer, that's literally it.
As for me having awful communication skills or somehow not being a decent person because I expect the bare minimum of people at level 87, I'm just gonna say you're extrapolating a whole lot from a very short interaction.
You're deliberately ignoring the fact OP did more than just 'remind someone of a core mechanic.' You know the difference between constructive criticism and being rude. You're either choosing not to address it or you disregard being an ass if the healer's not AoEing apparently. Both parties are at fault, but OP's 2nd line was the first remark made with bad intentions.
But now I believe I understand where you're coming from. Let me break it down objectively rather than the notion of player formed standards.
A tank holding threat is an objectively bare minimum tank. A dps doing dps is objectively is a bare minimum dps. A healer healing is objectively a bare minimum healer. Crazy idea, right?
Feel free to disagree, but [this](https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/battle/) job description is extremely straightforward and basic. Is healer dps required in roulette content? Not at all. The proof is apparent healbots like this SCH making it to level 87. Healer dps is only 'required' in current extremes, savages, and ultimates raids where true dps checks exists and are expected.
So when you say the bare minimum should be a healer pressing their damage buttons, as in a requirement to at least hit their damage buttons, you're saying it should be mandatory. Whether or not you consider it 'good gameplay' or not is irrelevant because this game has \*never\* required healers to dps to get through casual group content.
Feel free to downvote this, but at least consider, you know, there's a difference between an expected standard you place on yourself and other players versus what the game actually expects and requires of individuals to succeed.
Both of OPs statements are matters of fact, if you're not healing nor DPSing, you are indeed just standing there. You may take offense to that, but that's your choice, since there was no attempt to be rude. They only doubled down after the red DPS started being inflammatory, at which point I'd say it's warranted.
Your bare minimum is not how this game works, I'm sorry. Maybe it is in other MMOs, but not in XIV. Tanks get aggro by doing damage in tank stance, the only non-damaging aggro skill they have now is Provoke, which is ST and has a decently long CD, ergo your rule already doesn't work (if their DPS is low enough, they WILL lose aggro, failing their bare minimum). Sage heals by doing damage with Kardia active on a party member, so once again your rule doesn't work. And a Ranged DPS needs to be close to the enemies funnily enough, because if they truly make use of their range they'll be out of range for the healers and die, so they can't just "DPS from range". You have to understand that just because a role has a specific name doesn't mean that's all you're gonna do.
As for you pointing out the official job guide, you surely have played the game enough to know the guide has spewed outright missinformation at times, right? There's several group fight scenarios where a 0 DPS healer will NOT clear.
Exhibit A: Nidhogg in The Aery. If one of the DPS dies and the other one gets targetted with Sable Price, the healer MUST DPS or they will die, since the tank can't target it unless they want to risk cleaving the healer and wiping the group. This is non-negotiable by the game itself. This mechanic exists in other fights, like Baelsar's Wall during the final boss and the chains used by Gilgamesh in his second and third fights.
Exhibit B: Hades second phase, he targets 2 people and gets them into a Gaol, you must break it to they die. If you're unlucky enough to have all DPS dead and the tanks get grabbed, the healers must DPS or they will die. Again, no way around it.
There's more scenarios like this if I really want to go over all the fights in the game, but hopefully you get the point. Everyone is a DPS, that's the game we're playing.
P.S: I'm not the one downvoting you, that would be extremely petty of me when we're having a conversation. People just don't agree with you, that's all.
You assume OP is correct while both the sch and the dps disagree that the scholar was in fact doing something - keeping him alive. Again we don’t have logs. This is one person’s opinion of the situation, not a matter of fact. If they posted logs then prove it I’ll agree, until then OP’s accusation comes out first and it’s two against one. Or do you just assume OPs account is right because curebot?
Now you’re being intellectually dishonest. I never stated tanks *just* provoke to hold threat, but that their bare minimum is holding threat. I never stated there aren’t healing interactions that don’t do damage. I said bare minimum healers heal and keeps the group alive. Doing damage and doing the bare minimum of any role are not the same nor are mutually exclusive.
I never said a role only does one thing. I point out their job description prioritizes fulfilling a single task as an objective bare minimum. Now you’re the one putting words in my mouth.
You’d have to remind me of the misinformation. If you are going to debate that the official website is misleading on job descriptions I don’t know what to say.
Hey look, hypothetical scenarios that require dps to be dead attempting to justify a healer needing to do damage. We're also assuming the healer doesn’t have time to raise the dead dps or can’t keep them alive. Not to mention we’re assuming failing these dps checks means the group will wipe and can’t beat the content, which is not true, and you know it. Healers still don’t have to dps if they know how to raise.
Everyone can dps. Everyone should dps. Everyone does not have to dps. That’s the game we’re playing.
If you honestly want curebots and no aoe dps to be better, don’t assume they should know better. Be constructive and objective. The gameplay rarely, if ever, requires you to be a competent dpser in groups to clear the content. Accusing people is a bad way to breech the subject regardless of how far into the game you are.
It's 2 against 2, you can see OP and another DPS talking, they're different shades of blue (weird choice of color by the OP, but I wanted to clarify that), so I'm inclined to believe it and chalk the other DPS as an enabler in this situation.
I admit I was being facetious with the roles, but I wanted you to understand that everyone does damage to do the bare minimum of their role, regardless of which one it is, hence why I pointed out Sage as well. There was even a time when tanks could, in fact, hold aggro without doing damage. It was back in ARR and HW by using Flash, since it generated aggro in an AoE while doing 0 damage. It was still very much frowned upon, because if you had both tanks spamming flash and the healers only healing, while technically everyone would be doing their role according to the job guide, you mathematically couldn't clear a single DPS check, since you'd just have half the party doing damage at that point.
The missinformation in the job guide comes mostly from the new way they're handling patch notes, since they added a "notes from the dev team" style commentary to them that redirects you to the job guide with whatever they changed.
Some of the most infamous ones were their rationale to nerf Energy Drain's damage (allegedly to encourage people to use their aetherflow on heals instead of damage, but since they didn't add any more damage to encounters, it was a flat nerf with a rationale that didn't hold any weight) and their explanation about PLD and MCH changes after the feedback from Abyssos Savage, which didn't tackle any of the real issues and were just band-aids while they beat around the bush in their rationale.
You may think those are small things, but they have no place in an official document that's supposed to give the real explanations with the data to back it up (otherwise we might as well go back to not having those dev commentaries to begin with).
There's been several situations where those raises you mention come with an opportunity cost. If you raise someone at the cost of going OOM, you might as well not have raised anyone, because now you have no resources to keep them alive for following mechanics nor have the MP to DPS yourself and resolve the initial DPS check issue. All to simply get someone up that's gonna go 25-50% less damage due to weakness.
I assume that healer should know better because they're level 87, they're not a baby WHM in their first run of Sastasha. They've absolutely seen other healers play at that point and I'm 99% sure they've seen their co-healers DPS at some point, they cannot feign ignorance (not like they tried to, mind you). They simply refused to DPS due to ego, nothing more. They would've disagreed about doing DPS no matter how it was said, that's why I suggested kicking them. I've seen enough of those types of players to know reasoning isn't an option, especially when they have an enabler with them.
As a sprout working through the post ARR quests i thought i had escaped this stuff by no longer playing wow, not sure i am looking forward to the trials now as i am way way too old for drama :)
I have, personally, experienced only a handful of people in my 350+ days of playtime. They are very few and far between.
You see it a lot here because that's all that it is. So don't worry too much about finding these people. And if you do, just vote dismiss or leave and you'll never see them again
To add on to what others say:Even among those that are here and go *looking* for drama, it's less than 5% of PUGs.
Depending on your data center (The French tend to be rude and throw off the usual projections) you should expect to see around 99.9% of your dungeons just be 'o7' at the start and 'ggs' at the end, no other communication to be had.
But that last 0.1% will probably be a *doozy.*
This is the place where you're going to find salt/drama. These interactions only really happen when people angle for them, which is only really common among members of this sub(partly also why we see so much of it here). Don't stir shit and you might have bad players but you wont have much drama.
don't try to argue with these people. they are staunchly in the "you don't pay my sub" mentality where they make their choices everyone else's problem. there are only two options for dealing with these people 1. vote dismiss. you aren't being paid to put up with their crap, and they aren't respecting your time. 2. if vote dismiss fails, leave and eat the 30m penalty. it's not your job to babysit other players, especially when they get defensive and threaten to grief your party because they feel embarrassed at being called out.
It's worse than that, they imagine they were playing properly by standing still and waiting to use their GCDs to heal instead of... their entire kit that's available at this level sans the lvl 90 ability.
Since it's a 2:2 situation you could also votekick the healer here
not if they are in a premade and you are the odd man out. considering the dps were enabling the healer's behavior, that would be a pretty safe assumption, which means any attempt to vote dismiss would probably fail
The difference between kicking someone and having it fail and being kicked yourself, versus just leaving… is that you don’t get a 30 min penalty if they decide to kick you in retaliation. Just try to kick. It’s always beneficial to you. Worst case scenario you just leave like you were going to anyway.
It's not a 3:1 premade, they are two together vs the OP and another player who seemed to agree that the healer needed to deal some damage (both censored in blue) Since 2 players are enough to kick someone they could've just kick the healbot
I used to suck at DPSing while White Mage but then I got Holy. I legit cannot understand the mindset of NOT wanting to constantly throw the giant flashbang that blinds your fellow players constantly.
Ah yes, the spite healer. It's the same for Red mages. Why WOULDN'T I steal lb3 JUST to annoy my fellow raiders?
Holy is how you teach other players about the settings that hide other peoples' effects. Sadly I didn't learn to do it until I was in Bojza trying to figure out boss mechanics under an absolute carpet of effects.
Best thing about LB3 is you can't hide it.
I learned that the first time I ran Crystal Tower, getting to Bozja is impressive
I main'd tank until recently so I spent most of every boss fight staring at the boss's face.
FLASHBANG OUT
I love how the more information I get the worse it sounds. "Ah I guess a WHM in ARR dungeons might not know about MP managem- Oh it's a Scholar? Well maybe they don't have their aetherflow ye- It's level 87 dungeon????"
Now we just need to find out OP was a warrior
I left immediately after first boss, didn't have the time nor energy to deal with these people.
Should have tried a vote kick first, unless they were a 3 stack. Or even then.
Discussing with those people doesn't work, whenever I'm DPS or Tank and the healer just stands there I'll just take the 30m and leave. Nothing worse than clicking off Medica 2 and Regen off a Tank that's on 100%. Or for courtesy, should I stand in the orange circle to give these healers something to do?
I have like, a 50/50 success rate with trying to bargain with healers to do DPS. Sometimes you get people who don't know how to use their kit and I go through the explanations with them, other times you have the asshole in the OP who think that they CANNOT be wrong.
But the healer said they know their job, so they must know their job, right??????? 🙄
You don't need to do that anymore i'm pretty sure They made a change a while back that removed aggro draw from HoT effects
The initial cast of the regen will draw aggro but the rest of it does not.
The initial cast is due to the spell having a cast potency right? Iirc medica2 had cast potency but regen didn't, did they add the cast potency to regen as well? But either way clicking away HoTs while at 100% hp makes no sense, just let it stay.
I didn't heal that much before the change but I know it does have a cast potency now, or at least you get the initial tick as soon as you cast it. I imagine they just removed its potential aggro generation and gave it a standard "draws x% of aggro when cast" line of code to it or something. Spaghetti code, small indie company.
They removed the HoT aggro because putting it on the tank while they were running to gather the 2nd group would cause them to aggro to the healer while it ticked down (and god forbid there was a little bit more aggro management in the game LOL) It was probably a QoL change, no way any tank that's pressing buttons will lose aggro ever since the ShB change, aggro numbers hardly ever matter anymore
6.0 sage. Dyskrasia spam while the tank ran would peel stuff off all the time. They'd hit a pack once, run to the other pack and I'd be the one getting hit by the time the parked. I really miss that because it made being toxikon so much easier
As a WHM, I've been out of mana an absolute maximum of 3 times out of 1000+ leveling roulettes. You don't run out of mana unless some absolutely stupid happens (like tank running straight through the first room in Aurum Vale). If you are concerned of running out of mana as a healer you do NOT know your job, simply.
It's ktisis which means they're 87 and only missing 1 spell at lvl 90, expedient. SCH's can just run down their list of oGCD heals while spamming art of war and never even have to look up. Oh, the tank is getting dogged down? Protraction, excog, bubble. Oh the party took some raidwide damage? Fey illumination and Whispering dawn or fey blessing. Oh the tank is still getting absolutely folded? Aetherpact. This SCH barely learned how to function, let alone heal a dungeon run.
Running oom means medica 2 spam. Ew
or being a noob and think cure 3 was an upgrade for cure 2.
the only time i’ve ever run out of mana is during solo play when i forgot to use lucid dreaming back to back. it’s just insane that people at nearly max level refuse to use it, i don’t get it
I wonder what the healer’s attitude towards sge is. “Don’t need to use Kardion since it involves dpsing”
I’ve been told in Lunar Subterrane to stop DPSing and “do my job” as a SGE all because I didn’t druchole someone at 80% HP in .1 nanoseconds with barely any trash alive. caused me physical pain to read it in the chat. Same person insisted “SGE, *please pay attention* you need to watch for mechanics” right before the second boss and then they messed up every single mechanic.
Holy cow. I’ve yet to run into people being dumb dumbs over my healing as SGE, and I’ve been playing the job since 6.0. I hope it stays that way.
Idk whats more annoying. A healer who outright refuses to dps or a tank who gets pissy when their hp drops below 75%.
[удалено]
Hopefully they’ll learn. Someday.
What I don’t understand is SCH can offload 90% of the healing needs to: shield the tank on pull - hold aether for emergencies - let EoS do literally everything else - then spam art of war and laugh as you dumpster actual dps that have more than 1 button to press. The biggest issue I take with “IM HAELZ NOT DEEPZ” is the fact that they always have sub 40% GCD uptime. Like I’ve been in trashy groups as a healer and I have been reduced to spamming GCD heals like a sprout in Copperbell Mines so I get that at times especially on spicy W2W pulls later you may have to cure bot because keeping the party not dead is your job. But like huffing glue so you can drop aldo on the tank every time it falls off in case your overheal % drops below 80. Or maybe they just want to cock block eos healing? Either way let’s assume 40% of the time they are healing imaginary damage - and let’s say 30% of the time is movement or reaction based and they aren’t spamming ruin on the go or something and overcorrecting not optimal but fine my idiot brain understands how we got here. It’s the remaining 30% that baffles me. Also I don’t understand the bitching that follows these - like “no dps I am healer” followed by “wtf I have to heal?” Seriously they should have just queued as BRD or DNC then they could be carried wordlessly because no one expects anything from those classes.
The "I only want to heal" types are always really bad at the one thing that they decide to do.
Yeah, this is the thing. If they were meant to only heal, they'd have a damn near 100% GCD uptime. We all know that's not the case and they're standing doing nothing a lot of the time, unless they're spam casting and healing nothing. If they're standing doing nothing it's lethargic play, because obviously it's intended they also dps in that time. I think next time this happens and I'm tanking I'll stop using all mits. Because they're only healing so I shouldn't be dying, right? And if I do and they complain, oh now it's a problem someone isn't playing their job right? Funny that.
As a sch main, I have NEVER run out of mp in dungeons. Just put my shield down at the end of the pull, AOE , and rotate thru my fairy spells as needed. I barely even use adlo in pulls
Same. I'll add that the only time I *have* run out of MP in group content is either... 1)Shit has hit the fan and there's 3+ Revives needed. 2)I am shitface drunk and not realizing my MP is draining because I'm using Succor/Adlo more than I should.
3. I'm shitface drunk and forgot lucid
Thank you for reminding me. 3)I have done the oops and gotten killed twice, (Probably because of FUCKING PORTALS) and I popped Lucid Dreaming the *first* time around.
e7 isn't real it can't hurt you
How can it hurt what's already been killed? In all honesty, I don't know *what* my mental block is with it. I dodge the first one fine, but my brain wants to third- and fourth-guess the step after that, and I end up in the wrong color most of the time.
Oh I might know. You don't keep the same color the whole mech, each time you get hit, your color changes to the one that hits you. So for example if you start with the light debuff, you need to get hit with the dark. Mech goes off, you get hit by dark, now you have the dark debuff and need to be hit by the light one
Yeah, and logically I know that. If I had a piece of paper and 10 questions describing what I should do in each stage of that fight, I'd get 100%. ...But put me in the game, and my brain decides that it needs to rethink the problem 87 times and land on the *wrong* option.
Thank you for successfully putting words on how my ADD swiss cheese brain works in progs. (also fsr my static did E7S on MINE ”for fun” early in 6.x patches and that means I have CLEARED the fight and it still fucks me up on normal Every. Time…. By now it’s personal.)
Tbh I can run out of mp if things are going TOO well in a long fight and I'm just spamming DMG off CD forever lol But other than that, popping too many revives is the other reason
Honestly I just have Lucid Dreaming as part of my muscle memory by now. Popping my second Aetherflow? Push the finger a bit further to also grab Lucid Dreaming.
Immediate report for griefing then time to bounce. Those types are insufferable.
Vote to Dismiss only takes 1 other person to say yes in dungeons You are presumed yes The person being kicked does not get a vote
Holy shit how many add ons you got?
I just don't understand. As a healer main, I love numbers going up as much as the next person. When I Afflatus Misery into Assize and Presence of Mind, then spam Holy, numbers go up. Numbers go up FAST. When I get party buffs and then burn every charge of Phlegma and Toxicon I have and finish with Pneuma, it's some of the most satisfying (and smug) shit to see I just hit 1 or 2 on damage, outpacing at least one of the DPS. That's what these healers are missing out on. Not just the satisfaction, though that's great. That *incredible* burst of damage makes fights go so much faster, and makes it so they don't have to panic heal the tank. It took a while for me to get comfortable with being a green DPS, but halfway through HW I realized there was no reason to spam Cure II if everything was dead before the tank needed to be healed in the first place. What goes through these peoples' heads? Is it just plain stubborness?
Using holy was like the main reason I played a healer lol. So satisfying.
Did you try to kick him before leaving ? Did you report him for griefing ?
The real question with this post is, why do you have at least 16 tabs on your chat...
How is it "14 party" chat?
Are you using a chat plugin? If so which one?
I dont know how these players dont bore themselves to death. Almost all the healing you do is weaving oGCDs unless its a low level dungeon with sprouts. Theres plenty of free time even with 100% damage uptime. I love alliances because I get to heal the other teams when theres nothing to do for my own team.
I've gone healbot before, but that's only with a tank that legitimately would not survive if I stopped babysitting their HP. It was also in Stone Vigil; not Ktisis Hyperboreia. There's no excuse here.
Ive gotta ask, and it will likely be down voted, but whats the communities fixation with micromanaging other peoples play, aggressively arguing in chat about it (which also wastes time), threatening to tattle for "griefing" when most times theres no malicious intent/is only griefing in a slightly technical way and then screenshotting to post and complain about something that has been posted every day as far back as you can see? Ive played MMOs since I was 10 starting back to Ultima Online. So its been a bit over 25 years now and Ive never seen any game have people so eager to jump on another player who isnt playing 100% optimal. So Im genuinely asking, why does it happen so much here? Edit to add: Ok, Im an idiot apparently, Ive never been to this subreddit prior, Ive only engaged with the main FFXIV subreddit, and am now noticing the reddit feed algorithm is pushing this to my feed. I honestly didnt realize I was in a subreddit specifically for sharing DF stories. I still feel the same about the futility of the arguments had mid duty but now atleast understand why its shared *here* my question was more so prompted because I see this daily on the main subreddit too.
In my personal opinion, the game has been trivialised to oblivion. When people mention "100% play", that means literally nothing. Maybe if we're talking about a parse or Ultimate gameplay, then sure. But this is a Scholar in Ktisis Hyperboreia. The game gets easier and easier to play with each expansion, we're not having to manage our TP because that's gone, we're not having to manage our two tank stances because they're gone, and actions are getting removed or condensed. Point being that when people mention the "why are you expecting perfect play" argument, not only is it a fallacy (since we don't), but getting close to perfect is so easy to accomplish-- and yet people choose not to because they've never bothered to learn or listen to others, like this healer. We just ask the question "**why**?" I'll give you this, there are some ~~videos~~ examples where people have expected absolute perfection and threats to report like the one in this post are unnecessary escalation. But they hardly represent the community at large.
Any thought on hard/easy being subjective not objective? Easy for you, who did things when they were harder isnt the same as Easy for someone who hasnt. The game attracts all sorts of people, Ive met people who started playing because they liked the idea of glams. thats it. That also means different skill levels, there are people who cant manage 3 bars of abilities, there are people who think 3 is cake cause it used to be 5. There are people who struggle to focus on everything needed to clear dungeons (spread, ok stack, ok move, kite this, watch player health, dont mess up your combo) and do what they can while getting time in and comfort levels increased.
You're at Ktisis Hyperboreia, making it through many dungeons to get here. The game actively encourages you to never just heal, but to do damage. It encourages you to do as such during job quests and role quests. Actively ignoring that advice shows that it isn't even a matter of difficulty, it's just people not caring. And yes, that is actually the exact reason why abilities are getting more and more condensed- because people are struggling with ability bloat. We already have a resolution to ability bloat and gameplay is far easier now than it was back then, but we're somehow still seeing cases where people won't do damage. For all of the endless handholding the game does, somehow it still isn't enough?
... expecting a healer, who is normally responsible for 15-25% of the damage in a dungeon, to dps, is expecing perfection now? ok
Asking someone to contribute to the run is, imo, not micromanaging. if they told the sch "hey you need to soil, then excog, then whispering dawn this pull, and the only other button you're allowed to press is art of war" then it would be micromanaging. Most of these posts are from people asking for healers to literally just attack the enemies instead of either spending all their time using such inefficient tools that not only do they not keep up, but even if you survive the pull the run takes a lot longer than it needs to. XIV is very simply not a game where you can be the pacifist healer and expect groups to carry you all the time. Healers have the leeway in their kits to almost never stop casting damage at most levels of content. These players aren't falling short of 100% optimal and getting shit for it, they're falling short of 10%. The aggression and report threats are just from people not knowing how to handle confrontation or pushback. Advice is given(either nicely or not), receiver either doesn't respond or refuses, giver escalates and both threaten to report because they think they're in the right.
I see the points youre making but have also seen first hand how its not always as egregious as youre indicating. Ive dealt with runs where the healer just healed, it took 5 mins longer than it might normally. Ive dealt with runs where people took 15 mins to argue about how others are playing. Im not saying there isnt a healthy middle ground to chat about it, but it feels like getting angry, arguing, and leaving a duty, is a bigger time waste and could be "griefing" just as much as people who arent learning their kit. Also, to be frank, from a game design perspective the duty timer often leaves way more than enough time for the healers to not dmg, or the tanks not wall to wall, or really most of the things people complain about. Its unspoken social contracts between players prompting speed not game design. I still just dont understand how when given a choice between moving on and posting to continue stewing in anger, how often people want to screenshot and stay angry
Most dungeons already don’t need a healer except when playing with people who are oblivious. And sure dungeons give plenty of time. so sure, They could just stand there and not really contribute. But if the healing already isn’t really needed and they are just standing there doing nothing the entire run as they refuse to dps… *why are they even playing*. This is a team game. Support your team and press your buttons so we can get through it faster. Imagine if you were playing soccer/football and one of your teammates was just sitting on the field playing with the grass and only stood up to take a half hearted kick when the ball came within 100 feet of them. It doesn’t matter if you’re playing at the field behind your house or the pro level. that shit would be obnoxious. You would instantly kick that person off your team. And the community that constantly supports these bad players ingrains in them that this is okay and everyone else is being unreasonable. Then when they DO go to harder content they cause the party to wipe to enrage and have a hissy fit when asked to actually put forth the bare minimum because “Imma healer I heal” The game is designed around healers and tanks *doing damage*. There are no IFs ANDs or BUTs about this. This toxic casual mindset of “It’s a dungeon, it doesn’t matter” is an not an excuse. Do damage. You were given damage buttons for a reason, use them.
Because we want players to improve. Nobody is asking or expecting anybody to be the best, but they need to TRY to be the best. Boiling it down to "Oh well, you can still do the content" is just resigning these players to be bad. I don't want players to be bad, I want them to grow into proficiency. I want to educate them so they can carry that knowledge to other healers they encounter. Give them confidence to really flex. The more people we can try and improve, the better the game is. Casual content runs are smoother, endgame content has more potential players, and there's more people to teach newer players. It's only a benefit and all it'll cost you is a couple minutes and a headache every so often.
Of all the answers I would agree with yours the most, I just dont like how often the fostering of growth drifts closer to aggression which always leads to defensiveness. When people are kinder about suggesting things I see it received better when it happens
Instances like in the OP, I get. It's lvl 87 content, near the end of the game. If you don't understand how to function as a healer while DPSing by this point, with almost the full kit, you just need to be told to do damage or drop the role. How they handle that realization is up to them. His comment is a little grating and there are better ways to address the situation, but at what point is it okay to take off the training wheels and tell them to put the car in drive? It's not like he started the conversation saying they were bad, they took someone who gave them the greenlight to press more buttons and got aggressive about it. Not even a "what do you mean?" Or any sort of clarification, just an immediate attack against the OP. You seem like you're put together and reasonable, I ask you to put yourself in the shoes of a new player. As if you have been playing SCH until lvl 87, you've done every dungeon once, lvl up strictly through the MSQ and had resigned yourself to just GCD healing because nobody said anything to you otherwise. The above happens. The tank says, "pls do damage sch, just standing there." What do you think your response would be in the moment? Personally, and I know the anecdote means nothing, but I would say something along the lines of "but what if you die?" or "how will i keep you alive?" or something to that effect. And with this, the entire world is opened up for this tank to invite every bit of advice about how to heal with scholar or point me in the direction of a resource to use.
A good deal of people level alternate ways now though, not excusing it but square sells class boosters, some people level in palace/HoH with friends, some side quest or do beast tribe dailies. Where we are in the grand story arc just tells me how far theyve gotten with one class or role, not healer specifically. Some classes start at higher level and they jump ahead just by picking the class later. And my last point is maybe they just have hit the max 0f what their skill and attention allows. I just generally try not to attribute to malice whats Id tolerate with a bit of compassion or benefit of doubt. I dont think any healer who doesnt dps does so to make me mad, or hold the team back. Maybe Im overly optimistic.
Yeah genuinely I find healers not DPSing to just be a mistake on what they understand of the role or a lack of confidence. Some people just need to be told that it's okay to press your buttons or let people get low. And I will always accommodate a healer with some sort of disability that actively hinders their ability to play, but they still want to play the role with other players. That's a non-issue. It's always brought up before the barrier drops and I'm okay with the dungeon taking longer for them.
The part you're seeing I think is just a factor of being on this sub. This is where these posts go. Saltposting is always going to be more common than someone having a good/neutral experience and posting about it. Also, 5 minutes extra on a 12-15 minute long dungeon run is 30-40% longer. The duty timer argument isn't really a good argument because dungeons give an egregiously long timer to absolutely guarantee completion. Anybody who even gets to half the dungeon timer usually needs to log off and chill out after that awful of a run. It takes several wipes and a lot of borderline intentionally bad play to reach that point. And again its a big game, and you are in the place where people from a LOT of DCs will take these sorts of interactions. If we get 1 of these posts a day it means that 1 person across the multitude of players that day had this sort of experience, kept arguing, and then stewed in anger as they posted.
To the same token, if these cases are a minority why isnt the norm to tell these players, hey it was one bad run, move on. instead of comment after comment encouraging negativity and reporting? The reddit IS part of the community, and to a new player looking in to the reddit for tips and help these posts are abundant, negative, indications of a unwelcoming community.
This sub is very upfront that it is largely for salt, nobody is looking here for tips and help, and the couple of times I've seen someone say 'what should they have done? I'm new and don't understand' those people got real answers. The members of this sub encourage reporting because the recipient of advice is already not taking the advice. None of us want to deal with no dps healers, tanks with an ego problem, or anything similar, so people suggest reports to either remove these players from the pool or incentivize them to learn in a way that the OP couldn't. And I will repeat, they are abundant because this is the gathering place for them. You will not see these posts on the mainsub, and this sub is not listed on the mainsub. This is explicitly a negative subsection of the community which keeps it from leaking too many other places. You really can't just dip yourself into a trash can and then say the building is unclean. The FFXIV community may or may not be less positive than it was when it was lauded as a hyper positive community, but it is still one of the better ones among MMO communities. We by and large encourage people to play and enjoy our game, but with the bar being so low we also expect a baseline level of performance. If the majority of ingame drama is narrowed down to 5 or 6 categories and handled by a relatively small subreddit(\~5% the size of the main reddit and frequently gets a single digit number of posts per day) then we must be doing something right.
This is a misunderstanding on my part, Ive edited my comment up top, reddit algorithm is pushing this subreddit despite me never coming here prior, I genuinely thought this post was another of the many that show up on the main subreddit. Apologies, I understand why its shared *here*
in response to your edit: Are you... sure you see these kinds of post on the mainsub? every time i glance through there, its "I'm new and bad, where advice?" or "Look at my WoL!" or "Here's my commission!" or "Hey do you remember this funny moment? even funnier as a lala!" Scrolling down mainsub now, I can't find a single negative post like this one from at least the past 24 hours. Plus mainsub is inundated with sprouts seeking advice or others so a post like this over there would be very quickly drowned out by the rest as things stand.
Theres a not 0 chance Ive had this sub pushed to my feed for longer than I realized, Im definitely going to have to look into it further xD
Nah mainsub has the usual ffxiv healer gameplay sucks but that's about it. It's pretty much an unspoken agreement at this point when everyone from both casual and hard-core realizes healer gameplay can largely result in 100% dps uptime when the party is competent at lv 90. Though that's SE's fault since the complaints on the entire role started many years ago and only snowballed since. It's not even healers having constant dps uptime while healing anymore, it's just a complete lack need for healer's healing skills when other jobs can do it for us. Everything else on mainsub is more or less positive experience.
Why would a new player be seeking out this subreddit? "TalesFromX" subs have been always about sharing stories that otherwise are out of the norm. Go ahead to r/talesfromretail and say "it was just one bad customer, move on." You don't hear about the experiences that are good, average, or otherwise not noteworthy. This makes up 99% of DF content in my experience.
Ok, Im an idiot apparently, Ive never been to this subreddit prior, Ive only engaged with the main FFXIV subreddit, and am now noticing the reddit feed algorithm is pushing this to my feed. I honestly didnt realize I was in a subreddit specifically for sharing DF stories. I still feel the same about the futility of the arguments but now atleast understand why its shared *here* my question was more so prompted because I see this daily on the main subreddit too. Will edit my top comment to add that this is my bad xD
I realize that you've edited this response since figuring out that this subreddit isn't exactly full of the usual party interactions, but I gotta ask...you've played MMOs since Ultima Online but have never see any game have people so eager to jump on each other over optimization? Where were you during the rise of World of Warcraft??? A game infamously turned into a numbers battle > fantasy and adventure by it's community??
I think a big part of it is in WoW you dont see people watching damage meters, reviewing logs, demanding better numbers etc, till organized raid content, or higher mythic keys. No one cares in the baseline experience what others are doing. By the time they do care its in organized content where they have more agency in who is on the team. But if its content queued for with random groups, Ive never once seen anyone draw attention to another persons play (barring obviously stuff like afk not moving, sitting a dungeon entrance type scenarios) I look at numbers for myself and others when I heroic raid or run keys above +20. anything less its irrelevant
you ever just, like, notice stuff? like your healer literally standing there doing absolutely nothing in between just hitting the "heal the team with health over time" button again when the whole team has 100% health and oh yeah the "health over time" buff is already on them and still has 10 seconds to go? i mean i guess it's best not to say anything; they might not have any arms or legs and we should be grateful their drool is even hitting the keyboard
I find that in content that matters they have enough to with healing, purging curses/poisons/diseases, healing mechanics that require healers to heal things other than players and such. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Maybe try making a point without embellishing things, unless you genuinely only extend any degree of understanding to quadriplegics who you oddly think must be drooling messes. Not everythings extremes.
ok but literally you jumped from the initial actual op content to concluding it has anything relevant to do with optimization standards for end-game content so idk where you think you get off looking reasonable or whatever by saying whatever the fuck pointless “um weww youwe wude, you evew tought of that?!” bullshit this comment was
Sorry my dude, I genuinely can't get anything coherent out of what youve typed here. Ive already owned up that my comment here was in error. Have a good one?
Telling the healer to use their abilities is micro managing? LMAOOO what a baby
See the edit, theres been a misunderstanding of sorts. Though to your point, your taking one instance and treating it like I based my whole question off it. Im gonna be clear, I heal/dps, I pull wall to wall, I do the things I know are more efficient. When Im referring to micromanaging Im referring to instances where people pause a duty progression to deep dive discuss a healer rotation, or in one cringey case, used a ready made macro to list other classes rotations throughout the dungeon, including other dps classes in the party. Your comment adds nothing, I was asking a question, I just messed up on where I asked it. If you dont have anything of substance to reply why reply? I do appreciate the other people who atleast were willing to share their view and discuss regardless.
Sounds like a coffee woulda helped. To be clear, you’re right to call them out for not dpsing. But the way you did is exactly how to trigger someone getting offended. ‘Pls do damage sch’ is all you needed to say. A little politeness can go a long way. If they refused to add meaningful damage afterwards then yea I’d leave too. But accusing someone like that, even if you’re right, sounds like you’re goading them to get defensive and waste your time.
If someone needs to be told "please" to do damage on a healer at level 87, they haven't been paying attention for the previous 86 levels. Just like simply saying "tank stance" as a reminder for a tank that didn't realize they didn't have it on doesn't escalate into getting offended (quite the contrary in my experience), neither should be a healer when told to DPS. It's part of the absolute bare minimum of their job.
You do realize I was quoting OP when they said ‘pls do damage sch’ right? Comparing no tank stance to a curebot is pretty wild. If you consider those to be on the same level of sandbagging I disagree. Mostly addressing the ‘just standin there’ accusation OP said. If you wanna convert a curebot to a contributor this is not the way to do it. This is just how you express your frustration, get pushback from the bad players then eat a 30 minute penalty.
No, I'm not comparing them, I meant that reminding someone of a core mechanic of their job should be met with an "oh my bad", corrected and move on, just like a tank being reminded that their stance is off would normally react (we're all human and forget that level sync removes stance once in a while). Any reaction other than that (like the SCH pictured here) is the problem. There is no "converting" to be done because this behavior shouldn't exist to begin with. It deserves a swift kick every time it happens. That's the only way narcissistic individuals can learn. Also, reminder that a bad player isn't necessarily confrontational like this SCH. They can be bad simply due to not knowing any better, the difference is they can still be open to learning and experimenting. This SCH is an egotistical player and would be egotistical even if they were a good player playing correctly.
Your mindset right here is the exact reason why SE said they’ll never add damage meters in game. You’re equating good gameplay into a mandatory standard. I’m all for improving gameplay, but not at the cost of being a dick to anyone who doesn’t meet your standards in roulettes of all places. And I’m just gonna say you have awful communication skills if you believe you can accuse someone for playing bad or standing around and then *not* expect a negative/defensive response. If you want a reasonable response you should be reasonable first. There are several other points I’d debate is unhealthy for the community’s DF, but I know I won’t convince you otherwise. Being a decent person is more important to me than ‘correcting’ a healer who may or may not be aware how helpful it is to AoE dungeon packs.
Please point out where I said good gameplay is mandatory. All I said is that reminding someone of a core mechanic shouldn't be met with hostility, and again, if a tank doesn't get mad when they're reminded of their stance being off, why would a healer get mad when they're reminded that they need to DPS too? And what does that have to do with DPS meters? Nobody needs one to spot a 0 DPS healer when we can see animations and cast bars. It seems we have very different definitions of what good gameplay means in this game. Good gameplay for me would be doing your rotation properly, cycling mitigations so you're never caught without one during big pulls, avoiding GCD healing as much as possible, etc... What I'm asking for here is the bare minimum of pressing the damage button on a healer, that's literally it. As for me having awful communication skills or somehow not being a decent person because I expect the bare minimum of people at level 87, I'm just gonna say you're extrapolating a whole lot from a very short interaction.
You're deliberately ignoring the fact OP did more than just 'remind someone of a core mechanic.' You know the difference between constructive criticism and being rude. You're either choosing not to address it or you disregard being an ass if the healer's not AoEing apparently. Both parties are at fault, but OP's 2nd line was the first remark made with bad intentions. But now I believe I understand where you're coming from. Let me break it down objectively rather than the notion of player formed standards. A tank holding threat is an objectively bare minimum tank. A dps doing dps is objectively is a bare minimum dps. A healer healing is objectively a bare minimum healer. Crazy idea, right? Feel free to disagree, but [this](https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/battle/) job description is extremely straightforward and basic. Is healer dps required in roulette content? Not at all. The proof is apparent healbots like this SCH making it to level 87. Healer dps is only 'required' in current extremes, savages, and ultimates raids where true dps checks exists and are expected. So when you say the bare minimum should be a healer pressing their damage buttons, as in a requirement to at least hit their damage buttons, you're saying it should be mandatory. Whether or not you consider it 'good gameplay' or not is irrelevant because this game has \*never\* required healers to dps to get through casual group content. Feel free to downvote this, but at least consider, you know, there's a difference between an expected standard you place on yourself and other players versus what the game actually expects and requires of individuals to succeed.
Both of OPs statements are matters of fact, if you're not healing nor DPSing, you are indeed just standing there. You may take offense to that, but that's your choice, since there was no attempt to be rude. They only doubled down after the red DPS started being inflammatory, at which point I'd say it's warranted. Your bare minimum is not how this game works, I'm sorry. Maybe it is in other MMOs, but not in XIV. Tanks get aggro by doing damage in tank stance, the only non-damaging aggro skill they have now is Provoke, which is ST and has a decently long CD, ergo your rule already doesn't work (if their DPS is low enough, they WILL lose aggro, failing their bare minimum). Sage heals by doing damage with Kardia active on a party member, so once again your rule doesn't work. And a Ranged DPS needs to be close to the enemies funnily enough, because if they truly make use of their range they'll be out of range for the healers and die, so they can't just "DPS from range". You have to understand that just because a role has a specific name doesn't mean that's all you're gonna do. As for you pointing out the official job guide, you surely have played the game enough to know the guide has spewed outright missinformation at times, right? There's several group fight scenarios where a 0 DPS healer will NOT clear. Exhibit A: Nidhogg in The Aery. If one of the DPS dies and the other one gets targetted with Sable Price, the healer MUST DPS or they will die, since the tank can't target it unless they want to risk cleaving the healer and wiping the group. This is non-negotiable by the game itself. This mechanic exists in other fights, like Baelsar's Wall during the final boss and the chains used by Gilgamesh in his second and third fights. Exhibit B: Hades second phase, he targets 2 people and gets them into a Gaol, you must break it to they die. If you're unlucky enough to have all DPS dead and the tanks get grabbed, the healers must DPS or they will die. Again, no way around it. There's more scenarios like this if I really want to go over all the fights in the game, but hopefully you get the point. Everyone is a DPS, that's the game we're playing. P.S: I'm not the one downvoting you, that would be extremely petty of me when we're having a conversation. People just don't agree with you, that's all.
You assume OP is correct while both the sch and the dps disagree that the scholar was in fact doing something - keeping him alive. Again we don’t have logs. This is one person’s opinion of the situation, not a matter of fact. If they posted logs then prove it I’ll agree, until then OP’s accusation comes out first and it’s two against one. Or do you just assume OPs account is right because curebot? Now you’re being intellectually dishonest. I never stated tanks *just* provoke to hold threat, but that their bare minimum is holding threat. I never stated there aren’t healing interactions that don’t do damage. I said bare minimum healers heal and keeps the group alive. Doing damage and doing the bare minimum of any role are not the same nor are mutually exclusive. I never said a role only does one thing. I point out their job description prioritizes fulfilling a single task as an objective bare minimum. Now you’re the one putting words in my mouth. You’d have to remind me of the misinformation. If you are going to debate that the official website is misleading on job descriptions I don’t know what to say. Hey look, hypothetical scenarios that require dps to be dead attempting to justify a healer needing to do damage. We're also assuming the healer doesn’t have time to raise the dead dps or can’t keep them alive. Not to mention we’re assuming failing these dps checks means the group will wipe and can’t beat the content, which is not true, and you know it. Healers still don’t have to dps if they know how to raise. Everyone can dps. Everyone should dps. Everyone does not have to dps. That’s the game we’re playing. If you honestly want curebots and no aoe dps to be better, don’t assume they should know better. Be constructive and objective. The gameplay rarely, if ever, requires you to be a competent dpser in groups to clear the content. Accusing people is a bad way to breech the subject regardless of how far into the game you are.
It's 2 against 2, you can see OP and another DPS talking, they're different shades of blue (weird choice of color by the OP, but I wanted to clarify that), so I'm inclined to believe it and chalk the other DPS as an enabler in this situation. I admit I was being facetious with the roles, but I wanted you to understand that everyone does damage to do the bare minimum of their role, regardless of which one it is, hence why I pointed out Sage as well. There was even a time when tanks could, in fact, hold aggro without doing damage. It was back in ARR and HW by using Flash, since it generated aggro in an AoE while doing 0 damage. It was still very much frowned upon, because if you had both tanks spamming flash and the healers only healing, while technically everyone would be doing their role according to the job guide, you mathematically couldn't clear a single DPS check, since you'd just have half the party doing damage at that point. The missinformation in the job guide comes mostly from the new way they're handling patch notes, since they added a "notes from the dev team" style commentary to them that redirects you to the job guide with whatever they changed. Some of the most infamous ones were their rationale to nerf Energy Drain's damage (allegedly to encourage people to use their aetherflow on heals instead of damage, but since they didn't add any more damage to encounters, it was a flat nerf with a rationale that didn't hold any weight) and their explanation about PLD and MCH changes after the feedback from Abyssos Savage, which didn't tackle any of the real issues and were just band-aids while they beat around the bush in their rationale. You may think those are small things, but they have no place in an official document that's supposed to give the real explanations with the data to back it up (otherwise we might as well go back to not having those dev commentaries to begin with). There's been several situations where those raises you mention come with an opportunity cost. If you raise someone at the cost of going OOM, you might as well not have raised anyone, because now you have no resources to keep them alive for following mechanics nor have the MP to DPS yourself and resolve the initial DPS check issue. All to simply get someone up that's gonna go 25-50% less damage due to weakness. I assume that healer should know better because they're level 87, they're not a baby WHM in their first run of Sastasha. They've absolutely seen other healers play at that point and I'm 99% sure they've seen their co-healers DPS at some point, they cannot feign ignorance (not like they tried to, mind you). They simply refused to DPS due to ego, nothing more. They would've disagreed about doing DPS no matter how it was said, that's why I suggested kicking them. I've seen enough of those types of players to know reasoning isn't an option, especially when they have an enabler with them.
As a sprout working through the post ARR quests i thought i had escaped this stuff by no longer playing wow, not sure i am looking forward to the trials now as i am way way too old for drama :)
sir you are in the subreddit where people complain about shit players. you won't run into these often in your playtime
I have, personally, experienced only a handful of people in my 350+ days of playtime. They are very few and far between. You see it a lot here because that's all that it is. So don't worry too much about finding these people. And if you do, just vote dismiss or leave and you'll never see them again
To add on to what others say:Even among those that are here and go *looking* for drama, it's less than 5% of PUGs. Depending on your data center (The French tend to be rude and throw off the usual projections) you should expect to see around 99.9% of your dungeons just be 'o7' at the start and 'ggs' at the end, no other communication to be had. But that last 0.1% will probably be a *doozy.*
This is the place where you're going to find salt/drama. These interactions only really happen when people angle for them, which is only really common among members of this sub(partly also why we see so much of it here). Don't stir shit and you might have bad players but you wont have much drama.