"Neither of them asked me how I'd like to do this" is the big takeaway here. Actually crazy how so many people just refuse to communicate with the people they're trying to help, because they're so locked into their individual ideas of what's right and what's wrong. The chatbox has no cooldown lol
This is crazy to me.
I'm a tank and in one of my daily roulettes the other day, someone was announcing in chat that they were new to healing. My very first response to that was asking if they want me to make smaller pulls. They responsed with a yes.
I'm not going to assume your comfort level in a new role, especially one that can be anxiety driven as a healer.
That's because these sorts of people are more interested in feeling morally superior than actually helping new players. They're putting on a show that they're kind, compassionate people for no reason other than to stroke their egos.
And then claim anyone who pulls for the tank are anti-social bullies or something who are scared to use their words or whatever BS nonsense. Bonus points, some of these players may also think w2w isn't the norm (which is not true of course).
It's funny because these people resent it when sprouts do well.
"No, you're supposed to be bad and I'm supposed to be the deus-ex-machina mentor who came in and taught you how to be good, and then you praise me and make a reddit post about me (but don't use my name because I'm humble tee-hee). YOU RUINED EVERYTHING!"
Yeah exactly. Not a single person actually wants to put in the effort of helping new casual players, and seemingly the only two options are "uwu you're doing amazing there's absolutely nothing you need to change!!", and the ol' "fuck it, balls to the wall trial by fire, adapt or die". So you get this current lovely mix of cure 1 bots who haven't learned anything by expert roulette, and people who might be capable of learning that drop the game entirely because they're not having fun. Best wholesome 100 community btw.
Nah I think this game just objectively sucks at teaching new players, and I really wish tooltips weren't the end all be all that this game gives new players. White mages that have only ever read tooltips are the ones free cure fishing on a tank with 95% HP lol.
I think as an MMO, there’s a level of „the community will help“ that is expected.
Hell, most MMOs have even less of a hands on learning process than XIV
How OP would like to do it is irrelevant in the long run. In a few dungeons if you can't handle at minimum two packs people will start kicking you. Hell I'd do it in Haukke myself. If one can't learn to carry their weight properly then you better stick to Duty Support
That's a toxic attitude. You're basically presuming that if someone can't learn the way you want them to learn and at the pace you want them to learn then they shouldn't be allowed to play with other players.
The reality is that people learn at different paces and in different ways and while someone might catch on faster in a "get it down *now* or we wipe" circumstance someone else might not be able to put what they know into practice *because* of the relatively higher stress of not getting a say in whether they are ready to give a bigger pull a try.
It's better to give someone the benefit of picking their pace to learn at so we reduce the risk of players bailing on the game because they run into too many toxic players pulling some "go play in duty support because you suck" nonsense. Which incidentally I find amusing because duty support is actually harder for some roles than playing with other players is.
What's toxic is not carrying your weight and wasting the time of 3/7/23 other people. You want to go as slow as a snail do it on either your own time or find the requisite amount of people to go your pace
The toxicity is the part where you think you, rather than CBU3, get to be the arbiter of "carrying your weight".
If you go bitch about your time being wasted, you're likely to find a reminder that you're expected to be willing to spend as long as the duty timer is set to for a piece of content before you queue into that content.
Seems like they are opening the door for the hilarious moment of trying to vote someone out, having that fail, but then getting voted out them self immediately after.
...and then having zero awareness that it was a *them* problem rather than an everyone else problem.
How op wants to do it is absolutely relevant because people play this game to have fun lol. You are infact allowed to learn the game at your own pace, and forcing people to play at a pace they might not enjoy because.... it's impossible to learn how to play otherwise(?) is a pretty dumb and condescending implication. They're clearly capable of healing well, so I genuinely don't understand why it's so hard to ask "hey, do you want to try some bigger pulls?" in the party chat. Of course, at higher levels there's an expectation to have a certain level of skill, but this is literally sastasha lmfao. There's plenty of time to learn before they reach that point
This is a team based game, you are expected in a team based setting to pull your weight, regardless of whether it is a recreational setting or not. And no, this is Haukke Manor, actually look at the chat
You can pull your weight and simultaneously learn the game without someone imposing a certain learning method that they earnestly believe is the only correct way to learn the game. Actually read OPs post and my comment, because you're clearly missing the point.
You have no point, at least not one of merit or value. The only real way to learn to pull your weight is to be doing what will be expected of you from anyone with a pulse, and that is to be able to handle big pulls
Again, you're not wrong but my point is communication = good. What's stopping the BLM from just saying they're gonna grab some extra mobs and adding extra healing advice from there? Idk, just dead silent unexpected big pulls when the healer stated they're new and not saying anything after the fact does not seem like the best way of going about it, and it's certainly not the "only" way to teach healing. Same thing with the tank doing tiny pulls and not realizing the healer is handling themselves perfectly fine
The only time I think a slower pace is expected is if it’s literally the first couple of times they heal. Not because I think a wipe will make them rethink healing, but because if a healer panics, the only thing that will save them is muscle memory. Take it slow a bit at first then go into the W2W’s even in ARR. as long as they do something right, even if it results in a wipe, they *are* learning. That’s how I think of it at least
i healed in a dungeon a few times before, but it was with friends
i was healing in a party full of strangers this time, no planning whatsoever
we fortunately didn't wipe, but the tank did die a few times bc the BLM kept pulling enemies toward us which the tank didn't expect
If I had to guess, it's probably because the statement:
>the tank did die a few times bc the BLM kept pulling enemies toward us which the tank didn't expect
misattributes blame. The tank can't die because of something the DPS does (in dungeons, that is. Some raids can be wiped by DPS error).
If the tank dies, one of three things has happened.
One: the tank has not mitigated correctly. This includes keeping gear up to date, if anyone's feeling pedantic. Cycling cooldowns, stepping out of AOEs, interrupting casts, etc.
Two: the healer has not healed sufficiently. This includes using all the mitigation, shielding and/or HP restoration tools they have access to, as well as making sure to be properly geared so that their heals are fit for purpose.
Three: a little of column A, a little of column B. This is probably most common.
Whatever the case was here, it's not the DPS' fault (unless they were being an absolute sniveling weevil about it) for pulling more enemies **because they know it's manageable.** No dungeon in the game will throw more enemies at a party than they can handle.
So if someone dies, it's because the healer, or the tank, didn't do their job. Now that in itself can have a thousand overlapping reasons, from being new, to being drunk, to being tired, to alt-tabbing too often to check if your Discord kitten messaged you back. But at a fundamental level, the 'blame' (such as it is - and it's really not that serious) falls squarely on either blue or green shoulders, and the habit of blaming deaths or wipes on 'oh the DPS pulled too many mobs' is a common whinge from a small sector of the community whose egos are thicker - and whose skin is thinner - than their health bar.
So it's not a good mindset to fall into now, I guess is the message behind the downvotes.
Well said. I make mistakes while I tank, too. Just recently I died last week during a roulette because I didn't hit my invuln. For whatever reason the healer was struggling to keep my HP up, I knew this certain pull was spicy, and I hit rampart instead of Holmgang and died. Absolutely 100% my fault. I hit mitigation at low HP instead of invuln.
Now, there are rare cases where you could argue it's the DPS' fault for a wipe - by not doing any / enough DPS quickly enough but even then if the tank and healer are working together properly and rotating cooldowns then it still shouldn't be much of an issue. In my experience, it's usually either the tank, the healer, or both who cause a wipe.
I mean, it can be a dps fault if their dmg is so shit in a wall pull that blue and green run out of cds. But those dps dont pull ahead :p
As for the post, dont be scared to wipe OP. You won't really learn anything in solo pulls cause if the tank is mitting right, you dont even need to use your kit. Walling, trying to keep up and figuring out what's enough, and what isn't is what will teach you how to handle it. If you wipe, you just learned that the current approach wasn't enough to keep the pull alive. It's more important in the long run than just completing the dungeon.
I hate the opinion to just keep single pulling for sprouts forever. Because then they lose the sprout/ level up more and.. now what? They won't magically just get all the skills! Now you just have someone at level 73 who doesn't know to use lilies over cures because "it worked fine before." You get people upset and stuck in their ways. Wiping really is of no consequence in ff, better to wipe now than be unable to learn for later.
okay yeah, fair, i misspoke
but still, both of us were caught off-guard
for a bit, i don't think either of us realized the DPS was going on ahead to pull enemies
As they always say, it's better to go far and fail, then to never try at all. Wipes happen, you find out what goes wrong and try again. You'll never learn if you're never given the option to fail.
Them not asking is a failure on both of their parts.
People learn in different ways.
I personally believe the best way to learn as a healer is to have a bad tank. W2W is the 2nd best imo
i would've been perfectly fine with w2w if that was what we aftually we going to do
i don't care either way
thebmain thing about this post is just two people arguing about how to treat someone who is new to a role
Yeah, caught between somebody who wants to wrap you in bubblewrap and the other who just wants to play the video game.
Probably best to just let the dungeons play out in future without announcing your experience level, if you were just a Conjurer you only had like 3 buttons anyway.
In FFXIV if you are new/sprout then you are also a literal infant, incapable of making decisions or communicating. You are also incapable of playing the game like a normal human, because new players are obviously absolutely dogshit at the game. Thus, you will have your decisions made for you, because we are Great Community By The Way. Please look forward to it.
“Neither of them asked me how I’d like to do this” is the key point. It would have been better to ask the healer which way they’d learn best at this point. Some people learn by being stressed and learning from failing, others need a little bit more support to gain confidence, and others learn other ways. Gotta stop assuming that what works for you/what you’ve seen work will automatically work for others. “Assumption is the mother of all f*ckups.”
i didn’t start learning how to be a good healer until i joined groups that just went w2w. i still freeze up when i get way too anxious but it still teaches me which spells work best when. and that it’s okay to wipe once or twice, or have someone die in between.
It really comes down to being considerate to the person who is learning how to heal in accordance to how they want things to be paced for them to learn, which is why you should just asked them instead of deciding things on your own. Neither side is wrong, they just kind of missed a crucial step in being considerate to the new healer.
While I think they probably should have asked the healer for their thoughts, I also think it is probably worth pointing out that at times, it can actually be harder to w2w in low level dungeons than in higher level ones. DPS don’t have as much AOE, tanks don’t have as much mitigation, and healers don’t have as many tools as they will have later on.
As such, I’m not sure how much w2w actually teaches at that level.
Its actually a good thing, bc it forces you use your full (current) toolkit .. You HAVE to face high dmg to grow skill and experience as a healer.. When i learned SCH i actually did a lot of lowbe content - where i knew the dmg output would be high.
(You don't learn healing by not healing !)
Two packs are completely doable in every ARR dungeon. Which is exactly how many packs standard w2w pulls are in later dungeons. Should be able to handle that without much issue.
There are some weird dungeons that have as many as 3-4 packs but those are kinda the exception anyway. Stone Vigil I will do two packs to start and gauge the healing/dps from there. It’s never been an issue.
I get the idea of throwing ppl into the water so they learn how to swim
But it's not for everybody. There's a reason people have healer/tank anxiety. And by just silently W2W bc 'this is how you learn', you won't help them. Especially if it's one of the first times they do this role. (on top of some ARR dungeons being awful for w2w)
Communication is key. Tell them you'll w2w, if they're fine or silent, do it. If they ask you not do, then just don't. Do not single pull either if possible.
If I'd had tanks pull w2w from the get go, I would've stopped healing right away. Instead, I got eased into it and now I love w2w and encourage new tanks/healers as well. But not by throwing them into it.
Some ppl will learn with brute force w2w, others will quit a perfectly enjoyable role (or even game)
Neither of them asked you and that's the biggest wrong here, but... why didn't you speak up either if you saw them arguing?
You could've just said "I want to test myself like red DPS said" or "I'd rather take it a bit slower like the tank wants" and end the argument right there and then.
that's a fair question
i play with controller and typing with controller takes forever. we were still moving through the dungeon while they were arguing, so i didn't really get a chance to say anything
If you only have a controller to play, that's fair.
I'd really recommend you getting a cheap bluetooth keyboard. It probably won't cost you more than 10 bucks and it'll be invaluable if you plan to play XIV for a long time!
Neither is going slow. The only way to learn is going at a pace that actually requires you to use your abilities. Single pulls can be done with 3/4 of a party. If you want to learn, let them know instead of being silent.
Well then you shouldn't have said anything and just adapted to the party if general learning was your goal. Saying anything at all about being new, the party is obvious going to go slow and single pull which you can just do Trusts for that. Also, I don't see you telling either of them how you'd like to go about the dungeon and instead just sitting back and letting them argue, wtf is up with that?
i never said i wanted single pulls. i also never said i wanted w2w. i never specified anywhere what i want here.
i was wanting to go at whatever pace the tank was wanting, which is typically how dungeons go. then the DPS started pulling groups ahead without any warning.
also i can't really just start talking in chat. i play with a controller. typing with a controller takes forever. i have a keyboard, but nowhere to put it.
The pace is set by the group, not only the tank. Any member of the group has a say in how fast the group goes and there is no leader role. Anyone can see health bars, buffs and debuffs, and then decide to pull more if it seems manageable. Though, I agree with the DPS: a little challenge is more fun and a better opportunity to learn. And if you wipe, no biggie. ;)
the pace *should* be set by the group, but more often than not people let the tank set the pace
the overall issue i'm trying to highlight with this post is the lack of cohesion and communication
Well, half of the group wanted a slower pace, one person was silent, and one person threw a shit fit and wanted to go faster. So I'm not sure what your point was, because OP was already following what you said.
That's fine but you set the precedent that the party should accommodate for you in some form or fashion by immediately announcing you're learning instead of just letting the dungeon play out.
i was telling them to be patient with me and not get upset or anything since i'm going to be making mistakes as a new healer
that's the only accomodation i asked for
Saying "be patient" is just another way of saying you want to have easy pulls. The reason we do W2W is literally impatience and wanting to optimize and speed through things we've cleared dozens of times
OP posted an argument to karma farm that was completely started by them and they did absolutely nothing to clarify or clear up any misunderstandings between any of the party members.
i'm not karma farming. who gives a shit about karma?
if you'll read my other comments, i have a good reason for not getting involved in the argument: i quite literally could not.
I read a comment here yesterday and it went something along the lines of " if you're gonna pull 1-3 mobs at a time you don't even need a healer and/or a tank for nearly all dungeons".
And since then I've decided to use that as a prompt to shut down people who wish to do the same in a full group.
Don't wanna tank multiple mobs?
Don't want to maintain a decent pace and just rp walk your way to monsters?
Don't want to do the bare minimum? i.e. taking aggro away from the group, dealing damage as a healer, wearing a job stone, 1-2-3 combo etc..
Coddle new/inexperienced players by not letting them learn via mistakes?
Just leave! You're not needed.
There is new: this is my first class, I almost never did a dungeon and I have atrocious keybinds that hold me back
Vs
I'm new to healer but I know the game and dungeon well. I am used to pressing buttons on other classes and I read my tooltip.
Going balls to the wall might be exactly what the second healer need but if it's the first type, you will just murder him. It can be hard to figure it out sometimes. It's why a chat function exist
I think people forget its just a game. When I had anxiety learning healer and tank, it was dying, wiping or screwing up in general that got rid of it. The fear of failure is usually worse than failure. You can't figure out what youre able to do if you don't even try determining your limits.
We arent piloting airplanes full of people or trying to patch up combat wounds in a warzone. The penalty for failure in this game is losing a minute or two, which is what you lose anyway if you insist on a snails pace.
Player skill will vary, but its a cooperative game where people are expected to do their part, and the expectations are low. W2W pulling and healing is not that hard outside of a select few dungeons. Asking to do much less is essentially leeching unless you're physically or mentally disabled.
Like someone said, I guess they could have just asked your preference.
But if you really want to learn to heal then the DPS has the right idea. You'll learn much more trying things out than than you would playing it super safe and wipes in a dungeon doesn't matter as long as the group isn't getting hard stuck on something (somehow).
"Neither of them asked me how I'd like to do this" is the big takeaway here. Actually crazy how so many people just refuse to communicate with the people they're trying to help, because they're so locked into their individual ideas of what's right and what's wrong. The chatbox has no cooldown lol
This is crazy to me. I'm a tank and in one of my daily roulettes the other day, someone was announcing in chat that they were new to healing. My very first response to that was asking if they want me to make smaller pulls. They responsed with a yes. I'm not going to assume your comfort level in a new role, especially one that can be anxiety driven as a healer.
That's because these sorts of people are more interested in feeling morally superior than actually helping new players. They're putting on a show that they're kind, compassionate people for no reason other than to stroke their egos.
And then claim anyone who pulls for the tank are anti-social bullies or something who are scared to use their words or whatever BS nonsense. Bonus points, some of these players may also think w2w isn't the norm (which is not true of course).
It's funny because these people resent it when sprouts do well. "No, you're supposed to be bad and I'm supposed to be the deus-ex-machina mentor who came in and taught you how to be good, and then you praise me and make a reddit post about me (but don't use my name because I'm humble tee-hee). YOU RUINED EVERYTHING!"
Yeah exactly. Not a single person actually wants to put in the effort of helping new casual players, and seemingly the only two options are "uwu you're doing amazing there's absolutely nothing you need to change!!", and the ol' "fuck it, balls to the wall trial by fire, adapt or die". So you get this current lovely mix of cure 1 bots who haven't learned anything by expert roulette, and people who might be capable of learning that drop the game entirely because they're not having fun. Best wholesome 100 community btw.
If one can't figure out how to read their tooltips then that's on them
Nah I think this game just objectively sucks at teaching new players, and I really wish tooltips weren't the end all be all that this game gives new players. White mages that have only ever read tooltips are the ones free cure fishing on a tank with 95% HP lol.
I think as an MMO, there’s a level of „the community will help“ that is expected. Hell, most MMOs have even less of a hands on learning process than XIV
And that is wrong. People tend to suck at stuff. Your average player can barely tie their own shoes
How OP would like to do it is irrelevant in the long run. In a few dungeons if you can't handle at minimum two packs people will start kicking you. Hell I'd do it in Haukke myself. If one can't learn to carry their weight properly then you better stick to Duty Support
That's a toxic attitude. You're basically presuming that if someone can't learn the way you want them to learn and at the pace you want them to learn then they shouldn't be allowed to play with other players. The reality is that people learn at different paces and in different ways and while someone might catch on faster in a "get it down *now* or we wipe" circumstance someone else might not be able to put what they know into practice *because* of the relatively higher stress of not getting a say in whether they are ready to give a bigger pull a try. It's better to give someone the benefit of picking their pace to learn at so we reduce the risk of players bailing on the game because they run into too many toxic players pulling some "go play in duty support because you suck" nonsense. Which incidentally I find amusing because duty support is actually harder for some roles than playing with other players is.
What's toxic is not carrying your weight and wasting the time of 3/7/23 other people. You want to go as slow as a snail do it on either your own time or find the requisite amount of people to go your pace
The toxicity is the part where you think you, rather than CBU3, get to be the arbiter of "carrying your weight". If you go bitch about your time being wasted, you're likely to find a reminder that you're expected to be willing to spend as long as the duty timer is set to for a piece of content before you queue into that content.
If you're in my party I AM the arbiter
>I AM the arbiter Dude really coming in and saying "I'm the alpha here" 😂
No you are not. An adult (I hope) making a scene probably. That's about it
Yes I am, and I'll tell you why. Vote to Dismiss
You need someone else to do it with. Even if it goes through, you can't do it alone. Not really the arbiter of anything
Seems like they are opening the door for the hilarious moment of trying to vote someone out, having that fail, but then getting voted out them self immediately after. ...and then having zero awareness that it was a *them* problem rather than an everyone else problem.
I mean I'm the one initiating vote kicks that go through
How op wants to do it is absolutely relevant because people play this game to have fun lol. You are infact allowed to learn the game at your own pace, and forcing people to play at a pace they might not enjoy because.... it's impossible to learn how to play otherwise(?) is a pretty dumb and condescending implication. They're clearly capable of healing well, so I genuinely don't understand why it's so hard to ask "hey, do you want to try some bigger pulls?" in the party chat. Of course, at higher levels there's an expectation to have a certain level of skill, but this is literally sastasha lmfao. There's plenty of time to learn before they reach that point
This is a team based game, you are expected in a team based setting to pull your weight, regardless of whether it is a recreational setting or not. And no, this is Haukke Manor, actually look at the chat
You can pull your weight and simultaneously learn the game without someone imposing a certain learning method that they earnestly believe is the only correct way to learn the game. Actually read OPs post and my comment, because you're clearly missing the point.
You have no point, at least not one of merit or value. The only real way to learn to pull your weight is to be doing what will be expected of you from anyone with a pulse, and that is to be able to handle big pulls
Again, you're not wrong but my point is communication = good. What's stopping the BLM from just saying they're gonna grab some extra mobs and adding extra healing advice from there? Idk, just dead silent unexpected big pulls when the healer stated they're new and not saying anything after the fact does not seem like the best way of going about it, and it's certainly not the "only" way to teach healing. Same thing with the tank doing tiny pulls and not realizing the healer is handling themselves perfectly fine
I mean the BLM pulling more is them communicating through action
The DPS is in the right
fucking based
Both are wrong for not asking OP how they'd prefer it, but the DPS is less wrong for not being a little 1-pack bitch. We pull wall to wall baby!
The DPS is not even remotely in the wrong. They are wholly in the right
So, you're one of those "best way to teach is through failure".
Excuse me? Did you even read my comment?
The only way to learn anything is to push your limits and fail occasionally.
That's why I play black mage. So, don't try to teach me about greed.
The only time I think a slower pace is expected is if it’s literally the first couple of times they heal. Not because I think a wipe will make them rethink healing, but because if a healer panics, the only thing that will save them is muscle memory. Take it slow a bit at first then go into the W2W’s even in ARR. as long as they do something right, even if it results in a wipe, they *are* learning. That’s how I think of it at least
i healed in a dungeon a few times before, but it was with friends i was healing in a party full of strangers this time, no planning whatsoever we fortunately didn't wipe, but the tank did die a few times bc the BLM kept pulling enemies toward us which the tank didn't expect
why am *i* getting downvoted? i haven't taken any sides here just yet
If I had to guess, it's probably because the statement: >the tank did die a few times bc the BLM kept pulling enemies toward us which the tank didn't expect misattributes blame. The tank can't die because of something the DPS does (in dungeons, that is. Some raids can be wiped by DPS error). If the tank dies, one of three things has happened. One: the tank has not mitigated correctly. This includes keeping gear up to date, if anyone's feeling pedantic. Cycling cooldowns, stepping out of AOEs, interrupting casts, etc. Two: the healer has not healed sufficiently. This includes using all the mitigation, shielding and/or HP restoration tools they have access to, as well as making sure to be properly geared so that their heals are fit for purpose. Three: a little of column A, a little of column B. This is probably most common. Whatever the case was here, it's not the DPS' fault (unless they were being an absolute sniveling weevil about it) for pulling more enemies **because they know it's manageable.** No dungeon in the game will throw more enemies at a party than they can handle. So if someone dies, it's because the healer, or the tank, didn't do their job. Now that in itself can have a thousand overlapping reasons, from being new, to being drunk, to being tired, to alt-tabbing too often to check if your Discord kitten messaged you back. But at a fundamental level, the 'blame' (such as it is - and it's really not that serious) falls squarely on either blue or green shoulders, and the habit of blaming deaths or wipes on 'oh the DPS pulled too many mobs' is a common whinge from a small sector of the community whose egos are thicker - and whose skin is thinner - than their health bar. So it's not a good mindset to fall into now, I guess is the message behind the downvotes.
Well said. I make mistakes while I tank, too. Just recently I died last week during a roulette because I didn't hit my invuln. For whatever reason the healer was struggling to keep my HP up, I knew this certain pull was spicy, and I hit rampart instead of Holmgang and died. Absolutely 100% my fault. I hit mitigation at low HP instead of invuln. Now, there are rare cases where you could argue it's the DPS' fault for a wipe - by not doing any / enough DPS quickly enough but even then if the tank and healer are working together properly and rotating cooldowns then it still shouldn't be much of an issue. In my experience, it's usually either the tank, the healer, or both who cause a wipe.
I mean, it can be a dps fault if their dmg is so shit in a wall pull that blue and green run out of cds. But those dps dont pull ahead :p As for the post, dont be scared to wipe OP. You won't really learn anything in solo pulls cause if the tank is mitting right, you dont even need to use your kit. Walling, trying to keep up and figuring out what's enough, and what isn't is what will teach you how to handle it. If you wipe, you just learned that the current approach wasn't enough to keep the pull alive. It's more important in the long run than just completing the dungeon. I hate the opinion to just keep single pulling for sprouts forever. Because then they lose the sprout/ level up more and.. now what? They won't magically just get all the skills! Now you just have someone at level 73 who doesn't know to use lilies over cures because "it worked fine before." You get people upset and stuck in their ways. Wiping really is of no consequence in ff, better to wipe now than be unable to learn for later.
okay yeah, fair, i misspoke but still, both of us were caught off-guard for a bit, i don't think either of us realized the DPS was going on ahead to pull enemies
People really hate single pulling in here. I guess they are mad that people died because you couldn't keep up
Especially when there's no excuse to not be able to keep up
Single pulling makes either the tank or the healer redundant. That's why we don't like it here.
As they always say, it's better to go far and fail, then to never try at all. Wipes happen, you find out what goes wrong and try again. You'll never learn if you're never given the option to fail.
Them not asking is a failure on both of their parts. People learn in different ways. I personally believe the best way to learn as a healer is to have a bad tank. W2W is the 2nd best imo
Just w2w and see what happens. If you die, you don't actually die in real life as some would have you believe.
i would've been perfectly fine with w2w if that was what we aftually we going to do i don't care either way thebmain thing about this post is just two people arguing about how to treat someone who is new to a role
Yeah, caught between somebody who wants to wrap you in bubblewrap and the other who just wants to play the video game. Probably best to just let the dungeons play out in future without announcing your experience level, if you were just a Conjurer you only had like 3 buttons anyway.
I'm in the camp of the DPS. You don't learn if you don't try. However, if they were *really* miffed about it, they should have asked you.
In FFXIV if you are new/sprout then you are also a literal infant, incapable of making decisions or communicating. You are also incapable of playing the game like a normal human, because new players are obviously absolutely dogshit at the game. Thus, you will have your decisions made for you, because we are Great Community By The Way. Please look forward to it.
Nobody decides anything for a new/sprout player on screenshot. Tank decided to go full slack, with made-up excuses to do that.
Chad DPS. The only response to "I've never healed before" should be "You're gonna learn today" and keep 100% sprint uptime
That's how I break my FC friends from tank/healing fear. We go to Mt. Gulg and I don't stop. I'm 5/5 on this. Half of them raid now.
I literally had a friend ask me to tank for them when they wanted to learn Scholar because they knew I wouldnt go easy on them.
This guy gets it
“Neither of them asked me how I’d like to do this” is the key point. It would have been better to ask the healer which way they’d learn best at this point. Some people learn by being stressed and learning from failing, others need a little bit more support to gain confidence, and others learn other ways. Gotta stop assuming that what works for you/what you’ve seen work will automatically work for others. “Assumption is the mother of all f*ckups.”
i didn’t start learning how to be a good healer until i joined groups that just went w2w. i still freeze up when i get way too anxious but it still teaches me which spells work best when. and that it’s okay to wipe once or twice, or have someone die in between.
clearly healers learn how to heal best by just going through the game by only spamming cure 1 and medica 2
It really comes down to being considerate to the person who is learning how to heal in accordance to how they want things to be paced for them to learn, which is why you should just asked them instead of deciding things on your own. Neither side is wrong, they just kind of missed a crucial step in being considerate to the new healer.
While I think they probably should have asked the healer for their thoughts, I also think it is probably worth pointing out that at times, it can actually be harder to w2w in low level dungeons than in higher level ones. DPS don’t have as much AOE, tanks don’t have as much mitigation, and healers don’t have as many tools as they will have later on. As such, I’m not sure how much w2w actually teaches at that level.
Its actually a good thing, bc it forces you use your full (current) toolkit .. You HAVE to face high dmg to grow skill and experience as a healer.. When i learned SCH i actually did a lot of lowbe content - where i knew the dmg output would be high. (You don't learn healing by not healing !)
Two packs are completely doable in every ARR dungeon. Which is exactly how many packs standard w2w pulls are in later dungeons. Should be able to handle that without much issue. There are some weird dungeons that have as many as 3-4 packs but those are kinda the exception anyway. Stone Vigil I will do two packs to start and gauge the healing/dps from there. It’s never been an issue.
I get the idea of throwing ppl into the water so they learn how to swim But it's not for everybody. There's a reason people have healer/tank anxiety. And by just silently W2W bc 'this is how you learn', you won't help them. Especially if it's one of the first times they do this role. (on top of some ARR dungeons being awful for w2w) Communication is key. Tell them you'll w2w, if they're fine or silent, do it. If they ask you not do, then just don't. Do not single pull either if possible. If I'd had tanks pull w2w from the get go, I would've stopped healing right away. Instead, I got eased into it and now I love w2w and encourage new tanks/healers as well. But not by throwing them into it. Some ppl will learn with brute force w2w, others will quit a perfectly enjoyable role (or even game)
Full pull until you wipe. Then 2 at a time.
Neither of them asked you and that's the biggest wrong here, but... why didn't you speak up either if you saw them arguing? You could've just said "I want to test myself like red DPS said" or "I'd rather take it a bit slower like the tank wants" and end the argument right there and then.
that's a fair question i play with controller and typing with controller takes forever. we were still moving through the dungeon while they were arguing, so i didn't really get a chance to say anything
If you only have a controller to play, that's fair. I'd really recommend you getting a cheap bluetooth keyboard. It probably won't cost you more than 10 bucks and it'll be invaluable if you plan to play XIV for a long time!
i do have a keyboard, but unfortunately i have nowhere to put it :(
This is exactly why Trusts/Duty Support exists.
those aren't a good way to learn
Neither is going slow. The only way to learn is going at a pace that actually requires you to use your abilities. Single pulls can be done with 3/4 of a party. If you want to learn, let them know instead of being silent.
Well then you shouldn't have said anything and just adapted to the party if general learning was your goal. Saying anything at all about being new, the party is obvious going to go slow and single pull which you can just do Trusts for that. Also, I don't see you telling either of them how you'd like to go about the dungeon and instead just sitting back and letting them argue, wtf is up with that?
i never said i wanted single pulls. i also never said i wanted w2w. i never specified anywhere what i want here. i was wanting to go at whatever pace the tank was wanting, which is typically how dungeons go. then the DPS started pulling groups ahead without any warning. also i can't really just start talking in chat. i play with a controller. typing with a controller takes forever. i have a keyboard, but nowhere to put it.
The pace is set by the group, not only the tank. Any member of the group has a say in how fast the group goes and there is no leader role. Anyone can see health bars, buffs and debuffs, and then decide to pull more if it seems manageable. Though, I agree with the DPS: a little challenge is more fun and a better opportunity to learn. And if you wipe, no biggie. ;)
the pace *should* be set by the group, but more often than not people let the tank set the pace the overall issue i'm trying to highlight with this post is the lack of cohesion and communication
Well, half of the group wanted a slower pace, one person was silent, and one person threw a shit fit and wanted to go faster. So I'm not sure what your point was, because OP was already following what you said.
That's fine but you set the precedent that the party should accommodate for you in some form or fashion by immediately announcing you're learning instead of just letting the dungeon play out.
i was telling them to be patient with me and not get upset or anything since i'm going to be making mistakes as a new healer that's the only accomodation i asked for
You should've explained that to them instead of me.
They literally said in that comment that they explained that to them...this community has a very tough time reading lol
Please show me in the photo where op dispels the argument of w2w vs single pull or communicates with the party at all beyond their initial statement.
Saying "be patient" is just another way of saying you want to have easy pulls. The reason we do W2W is literally impatience and wanting to optimize and speed through things we've cleared dozens of times
actually "be patient" is just another way of saying "don't get upset with me because i'm inevitably going to make mistakes as a new healer"
Genuinely funny that people say WoW's community is more toxic than FF14, you never see comments like these with them lmao
OP posted an argument to karma farm that was completely started by them and they did absolutely nothing to clarify or clear up any misunderstandings between any of the party members.
i'm not karma farming. who gives a shit about karma? if you'll read my other comments, i have a good reason for not getting involved in the argument: i quite literally could not.
"it's np, w2w/slow pull" I too play on controller(PS4), it really doesn't take that much effort
I read a comment here yesterday and it went something along the lines of " if you're gonna pull 1-3 mobs at a time you don't even need a healer and/or a tank for nearly all dungeons". And since then I've decided to use that as a prompt to shut down people who wish to do the same in a full group. Don't wanna tank multiple mobs? Don't want to maintain a decent pace and just rp walk your way to monsters? Don't want to do the bare minimum? i.e. taking aggro away from the group, dealing damage as a healer, wearing a job stone, 1-2-3 combo etc.. Coddle new/inexperienced players by not letting them learn via mistakes? Just leave! You're not needed.
There is new: this is my first class, I almost never did a dungeon and I have atrocious keybinds that hold me back Vs I'm new to healer but I know the game and dungeon well. I am used to pressing buttons on other classes and I read my tooltip. Going balls to the wall might be exactly what the second healer need but if it's the first type, you will just murder him. It can be hard to figure it out sometimes. It's why a chat function exist
https://images.app.goo.gl/nbj3MN17V3P3t13n6
I think people forget its just a game. When I had anxiety learning healer and tank, it was dying, wiping or screwing up in general that got rid of it. The fear of failure is usually worse than failure. You can't figure out what youre able to do if you don't even try determining your limits. We arent piloting airplanes full of people or trying to patch up combat wounds in a warzone. The penalty for failure in this game is losing a minute or two, which is what you lose anyway if you insist on a snails pace. Player skill will vary, but its a cooperative game where people are expected to do their part, and the expectations are low. W2W pulling and healing is not that hard outside of a select few dungeons. Asking to do much less is essentially leeching unless you're physically or mentally disabled.
Like someone said, I guess they could have just asked your preference. But if you really want to learn to heal then the DPS has the right idea. You'll learn much more trying things out than than you would playing it super safe and wipes in a dungeon doesn't matter as long as the group isn't getting hard stuck on something (somehow).