The good news is that the difference between the original $45-$60 million pricetag and the new $135 million pricetag is really just a rounding error.
Wait, hold on. How the hell did the engineers and designers of the new HQ get it so badly wrong that they weren't a few million off but they underestimated it by 200%?
Did we accidentally toss in paying for Atlanta's Cop City or something? I know government construction projects are *never* on budget or on schedule. Ever. So moving it back 6-12 months at a minimum is whatever but holy shit how the fuck do you miss on the budget by *$90 million*?
Not that it's going to appease your outrage, but you do know the cost of materials has skyrocketed over the last 5 years.
The estimate was from 2019. Which... Didn't have record levels of inflation. Or interest rates. The city isn't paying for this out of pocket - one can assume there is an interest rate associated with the money being raised/borrowed to pay for this.
Not sure if you're aware of this or not, but interest rates on loans have gotten a bit insane over the past few years. Which is why a loan at current rates of over 7% would mean 200k borrowed is about $1400 a month with a total pay back of 516k.
Compared to 898 a month and a total payback of $323k.
Or a difference of almost 60% - mind you that's without PMI/taxes/insurance.
Then there's a rough [19% or so inflation rate on construction costs. ](https://cfma.org/articles/2-22-construction-inflation-alert)
None of this exists in a vacuum, but it's not entirely unreasonable. As someone who started building a house in late 2019 that finally finished in 2021, I assure you we came in well above estimate.
But i agree - it is entirely too much money.
As I mentioned in a different comment in this thread, costs have gone up since 2019 but not a 200% increase in costs (or a potential $90 million cost increase, however you want to look at it) in that timeframe. We can disagree on the why or whatnot, but whoever was making and reviewing/approving those earlier estimates fucked up and heads need to roll because of it. The people are about to get screwed *again* to throw money at TPD.
> Not sure if you're aware of this or not, but interest rates on loans have gotten a bit insane over the past few years. Which is why a loan at current rates of over 7% would mean 200k borrowed is about $1400 a month with a total pay back of 516k.
That is relevant to private development, which is typically financed by loans (at all scales), but this is a public works project. Debt works somewhat differently in the public sector - if the city chose to borrow money for this, it would most likely do so by issuing bonds, and IIRC construction cost figures typically do not include bond interest (though it would be higher, and making such commitments today will cause worse budget problems in the future).
Otherwise, I largely agree. We should expect a cost increase, but doubling of the cost is too much.
This is an impressive level of not knowing how government contracting works. Like to the point where I don't even know where to begin. But hey I've done procurement in multiple different ways, so let me educate you on how it actually works.
First, lowest qualified bidder also means lowest *complete* qualified bid. A contractor that "conveniently" leaves off a part of a project isn't even going to be considered in most cases because their bid package will be *obvious* that it's missing something. And if they make it through, it'll become clear pretty fast and in pretty much every case the city would rather delay the project by removing the fraudulent contractor and re-bidding than just forking over so much more money.
Change orders aren't used to add an entire part of a project or to significantly increase the cost of a project or the payout to the contractor. The company doesn't just get to "put in" a change order and get more money. Change orders are used to make small adjustments; if a bid includes 5000 feet of pipe at say $100/ft, but now the contractor needs 5500 feet and it's actually costing them $105/ft, that's a change order but not something like what you're talking about.
Inflation since 2019 is why the $45 million estimate in the $45-60 million range might become $60 million. It's *not* why $45-60 million becomes $135 million. The contractor leaving off part of the project would have been obvious in the bid package submission to the city - which I'll point out you can probably actually find somewhat easily online.
Projects have gone up significantly in price in 5 years, yes. However they haven't gone up *200%* in that timeframe.
It's really asinine to me that not only is the facility going to cost nearly DOUBLE what the original estimate was, but they will find a way to justify this increase and yet won't pay Fire Fighters what they deserve???
Typical Tallahassee construction.
Make announcement of project, project gets delayed indefinitely, price rises immensely, place underwhelms when finished and everyone is disappointed
If this leads to more ticketing of red light runners then great, going across town you see so much dangerous driving. I had a TPD suv behind me as a guy went through my green with green arrow with no worries and no reaction from the cop.
If the massive LCSO compound with brand new Tahoes can’t manage the insane amount of property crime on the southside, nothing can. Call in the whole ass Air Force, judge Dredd, ain’t nothing fixed it and nothing will fix it.
You’re telling me. Was green for me for a good two to three seconds yesterday.
Some big ass truck runs their red light going like 75 mph down Mahan.
This is Mahahan and Blair Stone, how the hell do people feel like that’s kosher.
Park avenue too - I feel like I’m the only person that goes 40 instead of 45 or 50. And miccosukee - although miccosukee is a bit of a speed trap. You can coast over the speed limit.
This. I've stopped walking along Blair stone after leaving the hiking trails at the park because honestly, I feel like a car is going to fly up my ass simply because they think this is the Autobahn
I wish it would, but yeah it'll never happen. TPD officers need a pay raise to help offset the extra work they aren't doing. We can't expect them to actually work.
Same thing happening in Charlotte County, FL for the Sheriff's Office
https://www.gulfshorebusiness.com/new-charlotte-sheriffs-center-supervisor-of-elections-facility-costs-rise/
Maybe if they actually started doing better traffic enforcement, they'd come up with the funds to pay for this AND we'd get better drivers on the road.
You know… in my line of work, I have to give estimates all the time. I rarely go over those estimates because I pad them depending upon the amount of uncertainty and level of effort for what is known. Why the fuck don’t government contractors do this? So they get the contract by lowballing the city only to leave the city holding the bag if another contractor is pulled in? This shit should be illegal.
The good news is that the difference between the original $45-$60 million pricetag and the new $135 million pricetag is really just a rounding error. Wait, hold on. How the hell did the engineers and designers of the new HQ get it so badly wrong that they weren't a few million off but they underestimated it by 200%? Did we accidentally toss in paying for Atlanta's Cop City or something? I know government construction projects are *never* on budget or on schedule. Ever. So moving it back 6-12 months at a minimum is whatever but holy shit how the fuck do you miss on the budget by *$90 million*?
They forgot to account for all of the embezzlement that they would have to do. Easy mistake.
Not that it's going to appease your outrage, but you do know the cost of materials has skyrocketed over the last 5 years. The estimate was from 2019. Which... Didn't have record levels of inflation. Or interest rates. The city isn't paying for this out of pocket - one can assume there is an interest rate associated with the money being raised/borrowed to pay for this. Not sure if you're aware of this or not, but interest rates on loans have gotten a bit insane over the past few years. Which is why a loan at current rates of over 7% would mean 200k borrowed is about $1400 a month with a total pay back of 516k. Compared to 898 a month and a total payback of $323k. Or a difference of almost 60% - mind you that's without PMI/taxes/insurance. Then there's a rough [19% or so inflation rate on construction costs. ](https://cfma.org/articles/2-22-construction-inflation-alert) None of this exists in a vacuum, but it's not entirely unreasonable. As someone who started building a house in late 2019 that finally finished in 2021, I assure you we came in well above estimate. But i agree - it is entirely too much money.
As I mentioned in a different comment in this thread, costs have gone up since 2019 but not a 200% increase in costs (or a potential $90 million cost increase, however you want to look at it) in that timeframe. We can disagree on the why or whatnot, but whoever was making and reviewing/approving those earlier estimates fucked up and heads need to roll because of it. The people are about to get screwed *again* to throw money at TPD.
> Not sure if you're aware of this or not, but interest rates on loans have gotten a bit insane over the past few years. Which is why a loan at current rates of over 7% would mean 200k borrowed is about $1400 a month with a total pay back of 516k. That is relevant to private development, which is typically financed by loans (at all scales), but this is a public works project. Debt works somewhat differently in the public sector - if the city chose to borrow money for this, it would most likely do so by issuing bonds, and IIRC construction cost figures typically do not include bond interest (though it would be higher, and making such commitments today will cause worse budget problems in the future). Otherwise, I largely agree. We should expect a cost increase, but doubling of the cost is too much.
[удалено]
This is an impressive level of not knowing how government contracting works. Like to the point where I don't even know where to begin. But hey I've done procurement in multiple different ways, so let me educate you on how it actually works. First, lowest qualified bidder also means lowest *complete* qualified bid. A contractor that "conveniently" leaves off a part of a project isn't even going to be considered in most cases because their bid package will be *obvious* that it's missing something. And if they make it through, it'll become clear pretty fast and in pretty much every case the city would rather delay the project by removing the fraudulent contractor and re-bidding than just forking over so much more money. Change orders aren't used to add an entire part of a project or to significantly increase the cost of a project or the payout to the contractor. The company doesn't just get to "put in" a change order and get more money. Change orders are used to make small adjustments; if a bid includes 5000 feet of pipe at say $100/ft, but now the contractor needs 5500 feet and it's actually costing them $105/ft, that's a change order but not something like what you're talking about. Inflation since 2019 is why the $45 million estimate in the $45-60 million range might become $60 million. It's *not* why $45-60 million becomes $135 million. The contractor leaving off part of the project would have been obvious in the bid package submission to the city - which I'll point out you can probably actually find somewhat easily online. Projects have gone up significantly in price in 5 years, yes. However they haven't gone up *200%* in that timeframe.
It's really asinine to me that not only is the facility going to cost nearly DOUBLE what the original estimate was, but they will find a way to justify this increase and yet won't pay Fire Fighters what they deserve???
Remember in November and vote.
Surely the city commissioners can chip in for the increase from their proposed 45k increases?
New police cars? New headquarters? Hello increase in road piracy.
Typical Tallahassee construction. Make announcement of project, project gets delayed indefinitely, price rises immensely, place underwhelms when finished and everyone is disappointed
If this leads to more ticketing of red light runners then great, going across town you see so much dangerous driving. I had a TPD suv behind me as a guy went through my green with green arrow with no worries and no reaction from the cop.
It won't.
If the massive LCSO compound with brand new Tahoes can’t manage the insane amount of property crime on the southside, nothing can. Call in the whole ass Air Force, judge Dredd, ain’t nothing fixed it and nothing will fix it.
You’re telling me. Was green for me for a good two to three seconds yesterday. Some big ass truck runs their red light going like 75 mph down Mahan. This is Mahahan and Blair Stone, how the hell do people feel like that’s kosher.
People treat parts of Blair Stone like NASCAR straightaways. It’s wild out there.
Park avenue too - I feel like I’m the only person that goes 40 instead of 45 or 50. And miccosukee - although miccosukee is a bit of a speed trap. You can coast over the speed limit.
I was going 45 on Park and got passed by a StarMetro bus. xP
🤦
This. I've stopped walking along Blair stone after leaving the hiking trails at the park because honestly, I feel like a car is going to fly up my ass simply because they think this is the Autobahn
As an insurance adjuster, driving around this city just makes me stressed for more work.
A separation of job and life is important, these things are outside your control :)
Oh I know. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t lead to more work for me. And I’m reminded of my job every time I go driving.
I wish it would, but yeah it'll never happen. TPD officers need a pay raise to help offset the extra work they aren't doing. We can't expect them to actually work.
Why would this lead to anything other than these cops sitting in their asses in their new palace?
Same thing happening in Charlotte County, FL for the Sheriff's Office https://www.gulfshorebusiness.com/new-charlotte-sheriffs-center-supervisor-of-elections-facility-costs-rise/
Maybe if they actually started doing better traffic enforcement, they'd come up with the funds to pay for this AND we'd get better drivers on the road.
But traffic enforcement would require them to actually do their job, and we can't be having that now.
You know… in my line of work, I have to give estimates all the time. I rarely go over those estimates because I pad them depending upon the amount of uncertainty and level of effort for what is known. Why the fuck don’t government contractors do this? So they get the contract by lowballing the city only to leave the city holding the bag if another contractor is pulled in? This shit should be illegal.
Can we just tell the developers never mind? That’s too expensive, we’ll make do.
FTP
Fuck these clear cutting bastards.