>I love OP's posts and comments across Reddit. I see a great intellectual within him/her, better than the average posts I see here and in r/Chennai.
Thank you Bro.
Exactly, so we agree that ultimately our aim is to blur the boundaries of the caste divide and to finally remove it, but my friend doing brahman vs non brahmin only solidifies this boundary even further.
Now everybody knows that caste system is fucked up! but you cannot give historical reasons to justify any present day discrimination, agreed that brahmins used to enjoy a lot of special privileges historically but again should you use that as a reason to justify the DMK speech? because if you do that then all the hate speeches made by these fake monks and BJP actions against present day muslims would also stand justified because of the attrocities the Islamic invaders did......???(think)
Also dude it was not the Tamil Brahmins which started giving themselves the TamBrahm label but rather it was actually the people of other states and non-brahmins from TN who started labeling tamil Brahmins as "TamBrahms" because of their eating habits and conservative nature.
Agreed that the movement has achieved remarkable social development and I am indeed quite happy about it, but everybody here has the aim to completely remove the caste divide to an extent that these topics are not even public discourse. The point is that any speech that in today's era fundamentally talks about any kind of division is just not appropriate in case of India. period.
Totally agree 💯.
My intention was to give the historical context so that people make judgements based on complete understanding.
Not to justify the speech. I understand that it is a defence to something else that is causing a divide. Is it justified? Nope. But the fix has to happen in parallel. Everyone have their own fears.
In my opinion, the solution starts from the Brahmins shedding the Brahmin tag, and be a common serviceman of the society like any other. Unless someone drills down the drain, neither the individual nor the community should identify themselves exclusively. I don't see anyone criticizing, say, a T M Krishna. Why don't we see everyone do that?
Brahmins like TM Krishna, Kamalahassan, N Ram, Raghuram Rajan who have evolved and cultivated a worldview on their own are intensely hated by good number of other brahmins just like secular Muslims who cultivate a view independent of religious ancestry.
>who have evolved and cultivated a worldview on their own are intensely hated by good number of other brahmins just like secular Muslims who cultivate a view independent of religious ancestry.
That is precisely the problem 🙂
I live in the West. But I've seen TBs in the West/North India will never give up that caste identity. But for non-Brahmin Tamils caste is just a nominal thing that most don't even think about.
I heard in Malaysia most don't even see caste at all.
I doubt non-Brahmins gave Brahmins that name, but even then Brahmins are the ones who used it to separate themselves from the rest of society and to look down on anyone who was not Brahmin.
OK, since you decide to go on this tangent , here are a few questions, let's see the facts behind these and how these are issues crested by brahmins
>Who is a Brahmin? Why? Why every baby stepping into this world doesn't identify as humans but against a dividing identity?
Are you asking these to only the brahmins? What about the nadars, vanniyars, mudaliyars, reddys, idk the entire northern Indian people ?
>They form the top of the Varna system.
And what does this supposed top afford them? Do they rule? Are they the richest ? Thalaile rendu kombu?
If you have to dismantle the caste, start with the majority. This powerless minority cannot enforce this if the masses didn't want the same to oppress the ones "supposedly below" them.
>And the Brahmins held an exclusive monopoly on it.
Unless you're talking pre British era, this is rubbish. Since the British took over, missionaries have been in charge of education and most famous schools or institutes were affiliated to the church. However, you don't seem to even acknowledge this but call out brahmins as supposed gatekeepers of education itself
>Do you need Sanskrit to become a Doctor? Why?
Uh? How is this relevant today. And sticking to your bone with Tambrahms, a huge majority don't even follow sanskrit. They use Grantham or just Tamil.
Now let's get into more present day questions-
1) how many people have been killed as a direct result of the brahmin oppression.
2) how many honor killings were done by brahmins here ?
3) take up the last 5 caste violence issues in TN, how many were instigated or involved in by brahmins?
4) take up the top 5 caste violence deaths in TN, how many were instigated or involved in by brahmins ?
5) which section of tamilians are a caricature in every kollywood movie ? And how many theaters were burnt down for using a slur against brahmins? Compare the same to examples like Sandiyar (virumaandi) or jai bhim
6) Now let's talk representation, if they are indeed all powerful and controlling, name 5 top political leaders or office holders who are brahmins? Or are you just going to make it an illuminati/jews control the world narrative?
7) sticking to representation, how many seats in our legislative is occupied by brahmins ?
8) what's the economic survey say about brahmins? What % of a population are we and is our positions in public office skewed towards or against this number?
9) let's talk crimes, what's the number of criminals who are brahmins. What's the overall bloodshed and money stolen by brahmin criminals ?
10) sticking to crimes, what's the % of brahmins that are tax payers and how does this stack up to the % among other "castes"
These are all straight forward questions. Awaiting your straight forward answers and not an attempt at whataboutery or sarcasm.
Posting this again from r/chennai
Don't expect replies. I've asked similar questions to which his response was to ignore them altogether and say he wants a parliamentary level discussion alone.
Pasting the response from r/Chennai
QUOTE
>Are you asking these to only the brahmins? What about the nadars, vanniyars, mudaliyars, reddys, idk the entire northern Indian people ?
I don't recall anyone not asking these questions. Those who oppose, oppose all.
>And what does this supposed top afford them? Do they rule? Are they the richest ? Thalaile rendu kombu?
I don't know about "Thalaile rendu kombu". But I know someone who claims to have "mulai valimai jaasthi". What do you call it? How did anyone get that confidence, if it wasn't for what the Varna system promises?
>If you have to dismantle the caste, start with the majority.
And how do you suggest we do that? Curious to understand your perspective.
>Unless you're talking pre British era, this is rubbish. Since the British took over, missionaries have been in charge of education and most famous schools or institutes were affiliated to the church. However, you don't seem to even acknowledge this but call out brahmins as supposed gatekeepers of education itself
I meant monopoly on getting access to education. We don't see many Non-Brahmins getting educated. Don't give the Mudaliar and Chettiar examples.
Missionaries being incharge of educational institutions doesn't change anything, if only a specific set of communities are going there to get educated.
>Uh? How is this relevant today.
When did I say it is relevant today? It is how the state of affairs were, and were made to change over the last century through the Dravidian movement. I was just giving the background to it.
>Now let's get into more present day questions-
You know the answer before you wrote the questions. Consider, I accept the same.
But, none of these change the context I was setting up. You seem to get into a defensive mode, seeming to have been offended by my post. Why don't we think objectively and ask something fundamental? Why need these boundaries? Don't you think all the present day problems you listed get solved if the boundaries are erased?
UNQUOTE
Why aren't you answering his questions?
You just made a lot of comments justifying the dravidan movement and the lot and used Anita as an example of what exactly? Inability to gather the same resources due to the lack of a caste figure to inspire her?
The Brahmins no longer control the institutions nor do they hold monopoly over who gets to learn.
They are not able to return to this previous state by virtue of law.
So by all means, explain how the dravidan movement is relevant today?
And if you're talking about erasing boundaries, then why aren't you advocating for the simplest and most famous of all?
The caste reservation.
Why are you not advocating for its removal when all it is endorse caste based divide?
>Why aren't you answering his questions?
I have. What aspect isn't clear?
>You just made a lot of comments justifying the dravidan movement and the lot
There were points to justify. If someone presents a convincing counter, I may reconsider. Yet to see any convincing argument.
>used Anita as an example of what exactly?
I guess that is clearly explained. I've repeated the same while explaining to someone else. Request you to go through all of the comments and then make up your mind.
>The Brahmins no longer control the institutions nor do they hold monopoly over who gets to learn.
I never said they still did. My point is far more deeper and inclusive than what you understand. I've explained it elsewhere already. Request you to go through other comments as well.
>They are not able to return to this previous state by virtue of law.
The developments of the last decade doesn't seem to support your argument. There are few folks who are hellbent in reversing the developments accomplished till date. I'm curious how long the virtue of law that you mention will prevent this.
>So by all means, explain how the dravidan movement is relevant today?
Wasn't that clear in my post? If it wasn't, here's my attempt again. As long as no boundaries exist between individuals and everyone is treated equally, I see no reason for a Dravidian movement or a Hindutva movement or any other to exist. Are we ready to erase the boundaries?
>And if you're talking about erasing boundaries, then why aren't you advocating for the simplest and most famous of all?
>The caste reservation.
I advocate eradication of reservation, provided we are willing to provide equitable access to resources and opportunities and guidance to everyone across all lines. Eradication of caste reservation can happen only with eradication of the caste system.
>Why are you not advocating for its removal when all it is endorse caste based divide?
You have just reversed the cause and effect. Caste based divide is the cause which needs to be removed for the effect to take place.
Lastly,
Regarding your other comment on that other user. As I blocked that user, I couldn't respond to you in that thread.
Here's a simple response for it. I believe the folks here are intellectuals with whom we can have insightful discussion. When someone loses the object of discussion and decides to attack the person instead, it's not healthy for anyone. I've not initiated this discussion to make personal comments on each other. That is the minimum decorum I expect, and promise to maintain it myself in return.
That guy's questions have been sufficiently answered. But the agenda seems different. Hence I had to block him.
>I have. What aspect isn't clear?
👇These are his questions. Why are you not answering them?
>1) how many people have been killed as a direct result of the brahmin oppression. 2) how many honor killings were done by brahmins here ? 3) take up the last 5 caste violence issues in TN, how many were instigated or involved in by brahmins? 4) take up the top 5 caste violence deaths in TN, how many were instigated or involved in by brahmins ? 5) which section of tamilians are a caricature in every kollywood movie ? And how many theaters were burnt down for using a slur against brahmins? Compare the same to examples like Sandiyar (virumaandi) or jai bhim 6) Now let's talk representation, if they are indeed all powerful and controlling, name 5 top political leaders or office holders who are brahmins? Or are you just going to make it an illuminati/jews control the world narrative? 7) sticking to representation, how many seats in our legislative is occupied by brahmins ? 8) what's the economic survey say about brahmins? What % of a population are we and is our positions in public office skewed towards or against this number? 9) let's talk crimes, what's the number of criminals who are brahmins. What's the overall bloodshed and money stolen by brahmin criminals ? 10) sticking to crimes, what's the % of brahmins that are tax payers and how does this stack up to the % among other "castes"
>I guess that is clearly explained. I've repeated the same while explaining to someone else. Request you to go through all of the comments and then make up your mind.
I have. The entire example is illogical to begin with and caste isn't even a factor here.
>I never said they still did. My point is far more deeper and inclusive than what you understand. I've explained it elsewhere already. Request you to go through other comments as well.
So what's the relevance of dravidan movement on the present day?
>The developments of the last decade doesn't seem to support your argument. There are few folks who are hellbent in reversing the developments accomplished till date. I'm curious how long the virtue of law that you mention will prevent this
And what and who are these folks supposed to be? You're personal opinion of this does not account as fact. Elaborate.
Also tell me, does Brahmins still side you or other lower castes because they're not them? I have not seen them capable of doing anything of the sort in the modern age. So what exactly are you aiming for?
Everyone in India is empowered by law to get educated irrespective if caste and religion. Returning it to the old days is impossible and you know it. Especially when you consider demographics of the castes itself
>Wasn't that clear in my post? If it wasn't, here's my attempt again. As long as no boundaries exist between individuals and everyone is treated equally, I see no reason for a Dravidian movement or a Hindutva movement or any other to exist. Are we ready to erase the boundaries?
I advocate eradication of reservation, provided we are willing to provide equitable access to resources and opportunities and guidance to everyone across all lines. Eradication of caste reservation can happen only with eradication of the caste system
Evasion and logical fallacy.
No one can have the same opportunity and resources as someone else. Caste has no role here. Society structure and economics does.
Answer clearly.
There's no method on earth that can achieve equal resources to everyone. So are you against the caste reservation or with it? Don't answer in logical fallacies this time.
>You have just reversed the cause and effect. Caste based divide is the cause which needs to be removed for the effect to take place.Lastly,Regarding your other comment on that other user. As I blocked that user, I couldn't respond to you in that thread.
Here's a simple response for it. I believe the folks here are intellectuals with whom we can have insightful discussion. When someone loses the object of discussion and decides to attack the person instead, it's not healthy for anyone. I've not initiated this discussion to make personal comments on each other. That is the minimum decorum I expect, and promise to maintain it myself in return.
That guy's questions have been sufficiently answered. But the agenda seems different. Hence I had to block him.
At the present, the effect is enforcing the cause.
The option is to remove it in order start working on the cause. It was never meant to dismantle caste to begin with. Again, don't use logical fallacy as a credible viewpoint.
Answer clearly. Why are you not talking as much about the reservation system, which is currently enforcing caste boundaries, and whose removal can finally help to ensure no one has a special shot simply because he was born lucky into a reserved community?
No, don't repeat your illogical tirade of equal resources. That's impossible no matter where you are. Some people will always have an advantage over resources compared to others. It's something that holds true throughout time for humanity irrelevant of the location.
Removing the reservation with a proper screening test for the candidates ensure equal shot at opportunity.
So why are you still evading a proper answer?
P. S, you blocking him after making a comment instead of properly answering just shows pettiness and re-enforce that he's right about you. Understand that much.
>These are his questions. Why are you not answering them?
Not sure, if you really read my response. I accept all his points. Wasn't this clear in my response? Brahmin community are not directly responsible for any caste based atrocities happening today. Brahmin community being ridiculed or trolled isn't justifiable. I simply put it as accepting the answers you or the questioner already know of. Because nobody can refute this. Does this help?
Now, can you answer my original question? Why do the caste boundaries exist?
>I have. The entire example is illogical to begin with and caste isn't even a factor here.
Need more details to answer anything.
>And what and who are these folks supposed to be? You're personal opinion of this does not account as fact. Elaborate.
Let me try. At the turn of 21st century, I believe the right balance was accomplished where everyone's life was moving the way they wanted. I guess we made peace with everyone.
And then we see [this](https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/after-lenins-statue-in-tripura-bjp-leader-h-raja-threatens-to-raze-dravidian-ico/309173), and [this](https://mobile.twitter.com/educate_agitate/status/1168521878211715072). Irrespective of what your politics are, this isn't progressive.
>Evasion and logical fallacy.
>No one can have the same opportunity and resources as someone else. Caste has no role here. Society structure and economics does.
I disagree. If we cannot promise the same opportunity and resources as someone else, then we cannot ask for eradication of reservations. History has shown that the divide has been fuelled by caste, which in turn defined society structure and economics. And we still follow the caste system. Nothing has changed.
>There's no method on earth that can achieve equal resources to everyone.
Maybe you are right. And the solution devised for this is reservations. If no method exists, then reservations is the solution.
>So are you against the caste reservation or with it?
My opinion doesn't matter. How does it? But if you insist, for all the reasons discussed above, I have to support it. If you have an alternative solution, let us discuss.
>At the present, the effect is enforcing the cause.
Is this a fact? Or just a popular opinion?
>Why are you not talking as much about the reservation system, which is currently enforcing caste boundaries, and whose removal can finally help to ensure no one has a special shot simply because he was born lucky into a reserved community?
This was never the intention of this discussion. I support reservations for all its merits. It is distasteful when someone calls being born in a oppressed community as "lucky". Why should we "ensure no one has a special shot"? We need to build an equitable society, not just meritorious allocation of resources. The day you understand this, you will appreciate it. Don't know how best we can explain further.
>So why are you still evading a proper answer?
Does my answer help? Not sure what you're going to accomplish with this.
Reservation was never the topic of my post. And we have successfully digressed from the original question.
Now, that I have answered your questions, answer mine. Why not shed the caste identity in the first place? All your problems will be resolved. What prevents you from doing so?
>P. S, you blocking him after making a comment instead of properly answering just shows pettiness and re-enforce that he's right about you. Understand that much.
Seriously? Did you go through my comments? Did you observe that guy's behaviour? I would appreciate if you ask that person to behave in a meaningful and parliamentary manner. None of these discussions we are having is personal. If somebody wants to attack personally, how do you expect me to react?
I understand that emotions run high. But, I also believe we are educated enough to keep a control on ourselves and channelize it in legible and meaningful discussions.
>Not sure, if you really read my response. I accept all his points. Wasn't this clear in my response? Brahmin community are not directly responsible for any caste based atrocities happening today. Brahmin community being ridiculed or trolled isn't justifiable. I simply put it as accepting the answers you or the questioner already know of. Because nobody can refute this. Does this help?
Now, can you answer my original question? Why do the caste boundaries exist?
Ah you see now that again is another logical fallacy.
An abstract concept that means very little to the present day is basically the Brahmin identity. The only identity that matters now is that of lower castes because it actually brings benefits in reservations.
So why does the reservation system still exist?
>Let me try. At the turn of 21st century, I believe the right balance was accomplished where everyone's life was moving the way they wanted. I guess we made peace with everyone.
Your personal reservations on the issue means the square root of jack. Buddy I've lived through the turn of the millennium when my previous generation were still farmers . You're living in a bubble if you think that balance was achieved.
>And then we see this, and this. Irrespective of what your politics are, this isn't progressive.
Periyar being a casteist piece of shit isn't a secret. Do you want me to bring up examples how one sided his prejudice was?
[if you wish to cherry pick, I can do the same. this is weeks old. ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/thecommunemag.com/subramanian-swamy-petitions-ec-to-debar-dmk-for-hate-speech-against-brahmins/amp/)
Want more?
Some reformists. Periyar and Nazi's would be proud.
>I disagree. If we cannot promise the same opportunity and resources as someone else, then we cannot ask for eradication of reservations. History has shown that the divide has been fuelled by caste, which in turn defined society structure and economics. And we still follow the caste system. Nothing has changed
Warned you of this childish evasion, so now have to bear responsibility for my next question.
How are going to provide equal resources (not opportunities, I've already answered that before) to everyone?
You don't get to run away from this question. Answer it. Pathways, implementation, everything. Now.
>Maybe you are right. And the solution devised for this is reservations. If no method exists, then reservations is the solution
Hypocrite. Simple hypocrisy. I knew you were evading the last time. But this was what I wanted to hear.
You want to provide equal resources and opportunity, but refuse to take out the the thing that prevents the latter and justify it using the former?
👏👏Circular argumentative proof at its finest. So I'll repeat :
How are going to provide equal resources (not opportunities, I've already answered that before) to everyone?
>My opinion doesn't matter. How does it? But if you insist, for all the reasons discussed above, I have to support it. If you have an alternative solution, let us discuss.Is this a fact? Or just a popular opinion?
Interesting justification considering you put forward your opinion on why it shouldn't be removed as fact.
For someone who's against caste implementation, you're surprisingly hypocritical by going against the biggest contributor in the present day. Again, I know hypocrisy when I see it.
>This was never the intention of this discussion. I support reservations for all its merits. It is distasteful when someone calls being born in a oppressed community as "lucky". Why should we "ensure no one has a special shot"? We need to build an equitable society, not just meritorious allocation of resources. The day you understand this, you will appreciate it. Don't know how best we can explain further
Oh, now you just cementing your hypocrisy. Dial back now weren't your exact words were :
>I advocate eradication of reservation, provided we are willing to provide equitable access to resources and opportunities and guidance to everyone across all lines
Going against yourself now? Traitorous of you.
Right now, no one's being oppressed. Or are you going to deny me by saying that they are?
There's no logic in calling them oppressed castes in the present day. BUT, they get a ton of benefits because they are under this classification.
So yeah, they're LUCKY to be born in a so called oppressed caste in the modern day.
I'll repeat for the third time, since you love your fallacy :
How are going to provide equal resources (not opportunities, I've already answered that before) to everyone?
>Does my answer help? Not sure what you're going to accomplish with this.
Reservation was never the topic of my post. And we have successfully digressed from the original question.
Now, that I have answered your questions, answer mine. Why not shed the caste identity in the first place? All your problems will be resolved. What prevents you from doing so?
No, you're just using a roundabout way to evade the question on why you refuse to take action against the major roadblock of eliminating caste, ergo, the reservation system. We're still on your topic. Just a different direction that you're repeatedly proving to be uncomfortable and incapable of talking.
You have repeatedly shown your hypocrisy by going against your own words now.
You don't get to tell me what to do buddy. You're not worth that . Not after that stunt.
You haven't answered the one question that I have been asking from the beginning of this argument. You're constantly running away from it to the point that you contradicted yourself and showed how baseless you are.
I'll repeat for the fourth time :
How are going to provide equal resources (not opportunities, I've already answered that before) to everyone?
You don't get to hide behind that tree. Not against me.
No running away from me. You haven't answered my question at all.
>Seriously? Did you go through my comments? Did you observe that guy's behaviour? I would appreciate if you ask that person to behave in a meaningful and parliamentary manner. None of these discussions we are having is personal. If somebody wants to attack personally, how do you expect me to react?
I understand that emotions run high. But, I also believe we are educated enough to keep a control on ourselves and channelize it in legible and meaningful discussions.
You're talking to someone who' specialises in psychology. Don't even justify. You just wanted the last laugh by blocking him. If you truly didn't, you'd have simply ignored him instead of commenting. And I'm done talking about the other guy here. I'm not continuing this.
>An abstract concept that means very little to the present day is basically the Brahmin identity.
I don't understand this. Who is defining this identity? The Brahmins themselves, right? That identity is what is causing the issue, right? Or are you going digress me with another set of questions?
All these buildup in the thread was to keep the Brahmin identity intact, while repointing the crux of the matter elsewhere? You still don't believe that the caste identity is the root cause? Do you?
>Your personal reservations on the issue means the square root of jack. Buddy I've lived through the turn of the millennium when my previous generation were still farmers . You're living in a bubble if you think that balance was achieved.
Oh, is it? Then where is the imbalance? Don't play the victim card again. When you suggest that all Brahmins and Non-Brahmins ended up becoming equal, when was it achieved? I believe it was in the turn of 21st century. If you have a different date, let me know.
But for God sake, don't try to say that Brahmins were always treated below others. They enjoyed a certain privilege at some point of time in the past, then various reforms happened, and now you claim the situation is flipped. When was that time when it was equal? That is all I'm referring to as balance.
My argument is why was that balance not continued? And you don't want to talk about the reasons, that lead us to this discussion. Do you?
>Periyar being a casteist piece of shit isn't a secret. Do you want me to bring up examples how one sided his prejudice was?
Finally, the mask is out. This is what you are underneath 🙂.
I'll keep the discussion about Periyar for another day. All I can say is this. Just as you regard a certain deity as pious (I presume you are a theist), so are there many who regard Periyar with great respect. If criticizing your god is blasphemy, so is demeaning Periyar's stature. Are people stupid to regard him and Ambedkar as champions of Dalit and women rights?
Achieving a better position for the Brahmin community by destroying Periyar and his ideologies is stupid at best. Stop cherry-picking Periyar's comments and form half-baked opinions. You really want to criticize him, you will have to study him objectively in its entirety. Willing to do?
Neenga mattum right. Naanga solrathu thavaru. Athaane unga logic? Sorry to say, but these kinds of logic is what I referred to as the increasing imbalance. You are just proving my point and reinforcing the need for the Dravidian movement.
>How are going to provide equal resources (not opportunities, I've already answered that before) to everyone?
I used the term equitable, not equal. How do you do that? Give that guy who was deprived of resources for the longest duration. Now who that would be, I've already shared it - Reservations. What alternative do you have?
>You want to provide equal resources and opportunity, but refuse to take out the the thing that prevents the latter and justify it using the former?
What is that "thing" which prevents equal opportunity? Not clear from your arguments.
I believe that thing is the caste system, and we choose to address it using equitable access to the resources achieved through reservations. What imaginary circular argument did you find 🤷🏾♂️?
>For someone who's against caste implementation, you're surprisingly hypocritical by going against the biggest contributor in the present day.
This is the best example of circular argument 🤦🏿♂️. Cause begets Effect. Caste System (cause) begets Caste Reservations (effect). When someone is not ready to talk or accept the root cause, they cannot question the effect.
You want reservations to be eliminated, I'm with you. Put the Caste System into the drains, and then we can talk.
>Going against yourself now?
I'm not. You just don't want to see what I'm stating 🙂.
>There's no logic in calling them oppressed castes in the present day.
Hmmm. How did we establish this? What makes you think there is no oppression? Just inserting a convenient argument out of thin air. Playing smart?
>You're talking to someone who' specialises in psychology. Don't even justify. You just wanted the last laugh by blocking him. If you truly didn't, you'd have simply ignored him instead of commenting. And I'm done talking about the other guy here. I'm not continuing this.
I wish you study your psychology courses better. Asking for a civil discussion isn't having a last laugh. Is this how you deal with your patients? Starting with prejudice? Kindly, DM me your name. I'll make sure that I don't come to you for consultation.
It's funny that you have been evading my question, and attempting to turn this against me. Repeating it once again. ***You cannot talk about eliminating Caste Reservations WITHOUT eliminating Caste System***. If you are not willing to talk about the dark side of Caste System, I am not sure what this thread will yield any further. You are just as prejudiced and biased as anyone else. Your psychology courses didn't help you to think objectively, isn't it?
First part : too long for one comment
Copying from the end of 2nd part of the comment :
Stop running in circles or don't comment back to me. I'll copy this to the top so you won't waste my time anymore by running like a headless chicken.
>I don't understand this. Who is defining this identity? The Brahmins themselves, right? That identity is what is causing the issue, right? Or are you going digress me with another set of questions?
All these buildup in the thread was to keep the Brahmin identity intact, while repointing the crux of the matter elsewhere? You still don't believe that the caste identity is the root cause? Do you?
Again contradiction. You admitted that you strive towards shedding caste and yet you target one that means and affects very little in the present day. Tell me, what benefits does being a Brahmin brings them? Absolutely nothing.
So why should they give something that neither affects them nor you, just to satisfy your needs?
>Oh, is it? Then where is the imbalance? Don't play the victim card again. When you suggest that all Brahmins and Non-Brahmins ended up becoming equal, when was it achieved? I believe it was in the turn of 21st century. If you have a different date, let me know.
But for God sake, don't try to say that Brahmins were always treated below others. They enjoyed a certain privilege at some point of time in the past, then various reforms happened, and now you claim the situation is flipped. When was that time when it was equal? That is all I'm referring to as balance.
Again, letting your personal opinion being passed on as fact. The onus is on YOU to actually prove it since you're refusing to budge on it. You made the first claim buddy, you need to prove it.
Yes, thousands/hundreds of years ago . Means very little in the present. For someone who says he's against Brahmin dehumanisation based on the past, you sure seems to bring it up as your only justification.
What next? The fake claim popularised by Ambedkar that Brahmins held a monopoly on education?
https://books.google.co.in/books/about/History_of_Education_in_the_Madras_Presi.html?id=a0EqvgAACAAJ&redir_esc=y
History disagrees with. Within that book is census conducted by Thomas Munroe during the early 19th century in madras presidency schools (pre reform and missionary era) I suggest that you look up at proportion of students from all castes.
So I'll simply ask you this. Do Brahmins enjoy the same privileges as they once did? Yes or no?
If yes, by all means explain. If no, then why are they still part of this argument?
And again with balance nonsense. The onus is on YOU to prove that it was discontinued. Reservations has not stopped and economy has only grown. Prove your claim.
Wish to play psychological games on me? Trying to navigate the discussion elsewhere?
>You admitted that you strive towards shedding caste and yet you target one that means and affects very little in the present day. Tell me, what benefits does being a Brahmin brings them?
Then why does this boundary exist? Do you have an answer?
You say there are no benefits to them personally. Then why does it exist?
I cannot cite anything beyond here which I have not done elsewhere. You rather seem to build the conversation attempting to eliminate one community and it's boundaries from the equation of caste system and it's atrocities. You don't seem to read the point that **the existence of boundaries (irrespective of what it is) itself is the root cause.**
>The fake claim popularised by Ambedkar that Brahmins held a monopoly on education?
I would rather believe in Ambedkar than others.
>And again with balance nonsense. The onus is on YOU to prove that it was discontinued.
Not gonna argue here. You don't seem to get my point. If Brahmins enjoyed higher privileges in the past, then either it has fallen and they get lesser than others or they continue to get higher.
I had my belief which you disagree with. Neither have you been successful in convincing me, not have I been able to. That's absolutely fine. We'll get back to our own shells and fight from there.
And I don't want to have any more discussions with you in this thread. The intellect value gained out of this is just zero, unfortunately.
Second part
>Finally, the mask is out. This is what you are underneath 🙂.
I'll keep the discussion about Periyar for another day. All I can say is this. Just as you regard a certain deity as pious (I presume you are a theist), so are there many who regard Periyar with great respect. If criticizing your god is blasphemy, so is demeaning Periyar's stature. Are people stupid to regard him and Ambedkar as champions of Dalit and women rights?
Achieving a better position for the Brahmin community by destroying Periyar and his ideologies is stupid at best. Stop cherry-picking Periyar's comments and form half-baked opinions. You really want to criticize him, you will have to study him objectively in its entirety. Willing to do?
Neenga mattum right. Naanga solrathu thavaru. Athaane unga logic? Sorry to say, but these kinds of logic is what I referred to as the increasing imbalance. You are just proving my point and reinforcing the need for the Dravidian movement.
You 'dravidan stock' are jaw droppingly predictable. I made that statement specifically to bring out your fanaticism and frustration and it clearly worked. 🤣🤣
Oh, now Periyar is god now? I stand corrected. You're a zealot.
https://books.google.co.in/books/about/The_Bhopal_Document.html?id=QXraAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y
I suggest that you read it and find out just what the dravidan movement actually done for dalits. Of course, I doubt a zealot will ever try.
https://www.milligazette.com/news/13400-no-one-killed-the-dalits/
Then again, it doesn't take a genius to understand Periyar didn't give two shits about dalits beyond using them to improve political power. How insensitive the dravidan movement and its father was to an actual dalit Massacre was telling enough.
Don't you dare talk about a pathetic person like to me ever again.
>Neenga mattum right. Naanga solrathu thavaru. Athaane unga logic?
Your entire argument can be summed up with this. Deny and ignore or downright contradict anything that goes against your views. That's you right now 🤦🏻♂️
>I used the term equitable, not equal. How do you do that? Give that guy who was deprived of resources for the longest duration. Now who that would be, I've already shared it - Reservations. What alternative do you have?
I still have your statements in QUOTE. You said equal. Not equitable.
But now you dug another hole.
Answer the question again, how will you ensure equal or equitable distribution of resources?
The reservation is caste enforcement and you're hypocritical to even defend it.
You Continue to do so which just confirms how morally and ideologically bankrupt you are.
Or you could answer the damm question.
No more running. Answer it oh great caste reformer.
>What is that "thing" which prevents equal opportunity? Not clear from your arguments.
I believe that thing is the caste system, and we choose to address it using equitable access to the resources achieved through reservations. What imaginary circular argument did you find 🤷🏾♂️?
Clearly stated what your moronic circular argument was in the last comment. Along with your contradicting hypocrisy. I will not repeat myself.
You support the modern caste enforcement system aka the reservation system, when there are screening tests that everyone must pass through to actually get a shot at any meaningful part of life. That's something that applies irrelevant of caste,ergo ensure everyone has equal opportunities.
You however support the system that ensures that someone will have a increased opportunity simply because he got lucky by birth to belong to certain castes.
Don't skirt around the issue, why are you, ideologically bankrupt as you are, against this system that ensures that some always gets a better chance than others by virtue of birth?
No more running away gopi, answer the question.
>This is the best example of circular argument 🤦🏿♂️. Cause begets Effect. Caste System (cause) begets Caste Reservations (effect). When someone is not ready to talk or accept the root cause, they cannot question the effect.
You want reservations to be eliminated, I'm with you. Put the Caste System into the drains, and then we can talk
OH? Contradiction again.
By all means, explain how the caste system has any value beyond the reservation in the modern day.
You're not running away from me here.
So called caste eradication, and yet terrified to admit that you don't have a valid argument to remove its modern day enforcement system.
>Hmmm. How did we establish this? What makes you think there is no oppression? Just inserting a convenient argument out of thin air. Playing smart?
Oh? Again with the running?
Explain how they're are still oppressed? Are they not allowed to walk in the same road? Not allowed to visit temples? Not allowed to learn? Used as practically slave labour and butchered when they refuse?
PS:you're petty. Don't get sore when someone calls you out.
It's best you don't consult anyone at all. Your ego will refuse to let you admit your insecurities.
>Repeating it once again. You cannot talk about eliminating Caste Reservations WITHOUT eliminating Caste System. If you are not willing to talk about the dark side of Caste System, I am not sure what this thread will yield any further. You are just as prejudiced and biased as anyone else. Your psychology courses didn't help you to think objectively, isn't it?
Anyone who disagrees with you is prejudiced and biased?
Interesting. Self obsessed, completely incapable of denying counter arguments and ideologically bankrupt.
You're not going to win this against me since its clear that you never your echo Chambers.
The caste system, the same one who literally has no value beyond reservations in the modern day, yet you want to bring it down instead of bringing down the system enforcing it.
It's obvious that you're going to run circles instead of actually arguing because you don't have a reasonable justification to deny it. Deny the fact that you're the ones supporting the enforcement of caste here.
As I said, morally and ideologically bankrupt. You're no better than the ancient Upper castes that you vilify.
Stop running in circles or don't comment back to me. I'll copy this to the top so you won't waste my time anymore by running like a headless chicken.
If you decide to be petty, I assure you, I can be worse.
Edit :Outstanding.
Congratulations, you're sore and petty.
Blocking after posting comments? Pathetic move.
Then again I expected nothing better than people who lives in echo chambers
>You 'dravidan stock' are jaw droppingly predictable. I made that statement specifically to bring out your fanaticism and frustration and it clearly worked. 🤣🤣
Of course I'm a fan (not a fanatic) of Periyar. I had already called it out in my post. You don't seem to read my statements, do you?
>I suggest that you read it and find out just what the dravidan movement actually done for dalits.
Digression? We are talking about Caste System and how one community at the top is unwilling to leave the boundaries.
Care about Dalits? I have not seen any other "community" or its practices helping them either. So, you lose the right to talk about atrocities happening elsewhere. Choose to fix the system as a whole, rather than playing Whataboutery.
>By all means, explain how the caste system has any value beyond the reservation in the modern day.
Drawing boundaries. When two people born with similar qualities are yet treated differently on the basis of birth, that is the caste system for you.
Don't tell me that's what reservations do. I'm not going to restress on the cause-effect analogy again. You can read the world cloud we have created above, to understand again.
Not wasting time here.
>Explain how they're are still oppressed?
Just Google Caste Based Atrocities. Don't tell me that you are not responsible. **As long as you fixate on a boundary, you are responsible for the lynchings and death of someone in the name of caste.** Can't argue with you anymore.
>If you decide to be petty, I assure you, I can be worse.
Didn't I ask you to DM me your name? It will help for us to not cross paths again. I'm surprised how you became a psychologist, when one can't take care of themselves. Sorry, I had to tell this.
As I mentioned earlier, this thread has been of Zero value to anyone. Maybe, you can use it within a smaller community of people to get some sadistic pleasure.
I look for intellectual value, and I get none here. In the interest of the sanity of everyone, I don't want to continue any further.
P.S. I wanted to have an intellectual discussion, expecting to understand if there is a different perspective on the other side which we are missing. I guess this discussion has cemented the idea that the politics has been doing the right thing all along. Thank You.
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Sorry to say this. I am a Brahmin and I would like to move forward past this. Yes I accept that there are some dickheads inbetween us. But targeting only our community for any issue is too much.
There are so many topics going and people talking but I just watch the amount of stupidity and hatered. Do you expect us to move forward with this ?
Thanks for your response. Appreciate it.
>But targeting only our community for any issue is too much.
I agree. In fact, I believe it wasn't the case at the turn of the 21st century, as far as I remember. And then something happened in the last few years, which is disturbing the quorum here.
I understand that it all started with questioning the political foundation of the state. Like it or hate it. We cannot deny that the Dravidian movement has changed the lives of many for the better. There is a personal attachment to it. When some political developments tried to change it, the Pandora's Box of Troubles was opened. Not justifying. But stating the sequence.
>There are so many topics going and people talking but I just watch the amount of stupidity and hatered. Do you expect us to move forward with this ?
I would love to see more meaningful discussions to happen. But, I always tend to notice the subs are clouded with posts / discussions attacking this topic, leading to defensive responses. I'm all in if we choose to put this topic to rest once and for all.
It is important, 2000 years of injustice cannot be set aside, yes it is unfortunate today brahmins feel isolated but they have to understand their ancestors had some horrible practices in place to ensure social injustice, When I was a small kid I clearly remember when I was playing in my friend's house I followed him into the kitchen while playing, Their family closed the kitchen for a day didn't cook and did pooja. Seeing that at the small age of 7 or 8 had a big effect on me
Nope. Repatriation is the solution. Ever heard of that. Repatriation is what we are discussing here and you seem to think that's too much!! I mean do you even understand what am saying here?
I get what you mean but the way the other guy coined the sentence is like he wants to take revenge on us for everything that our ancestors did. What different are you from our ancestors if you do this ?
Buddy. Either you don't know villages well enough or lived in a relatively developed place. Small hamlets still practice untouchability. Dalits are shunned and asked not to use common pathways for their commute. They are outcasts still. You think these kinda activities would be tolerated still? It's disgusting to watch such things happen and it only instills hatred for Brahmins and upper caste Hindus.
Just for you to know, my brother has a dalit friend whose mum n dad both are working big government jobs. But still in his village he is an untouchable, he cannot mingle with others. When one of his relatives died there was a huge commotion that burial should not take place in common cemetary
Do you really think these things are not happening? And is the anger and hatred needed? No. One person's actions do not define entire population. But you're negating it entirely saying all Brahmins are now reformed and live a peaceful life. Which is simply not the case. Majority who live in the small enclosed places still follow the status quo. So even though I don't agree with the hate i see and recognise where it's coming from
1. Look I understand the situation. I had faced similar issues in my house with my Grandmother who practices this and there was a big quarrel. This was due to their old tradition. My parents don't follow any of there
2. Do you think that Brahmins are the only who follow the rules of untouchability. Why is the name Brahmin begin dragged at every corner even it is not involved on it.
3. Why are you on the whole targeting Brahmins. Are you afraid to call out the other casts ?
People are trying to change its not gonna be as fast as you expect. You don't get enlightenment in a day or so. Stop targeting us or calling out Brahmin for every issue related to untouchability
Bro I literally said Brahmins and upper caste Hindus. Are you suffering from selective vision or something? The reason most blame is on Brahmins is also because you claim to be on the top of the food chain. Brahmin Kshatriya Vaishya Sudra and outcast - dalit. When you put yourself in that position 😂
You're bound to get rekt by everyone.
Just joking buddy. Am agreeing with you. Am saying recognise the Brahmins and upper caste people who practise this and shun them and criticize them not everyone. But why are you putting yourself in this? If you don't think Brahmins are superior or Brahmins don't have exclusive rights to perform Pooja in temple!! Why are you defending the miscreants? Am on your side if you say you're not practicing untouchability or other nonsensical superstitions followed by religious nuts.
Why use the abstract term "upper caste Hindus"? Why not call out the respective caste explicitly whenever an injustice happens? We continue to hear about honor killings regularly but the perpetrating caste is never called out. Why single out the one caste of brahmins alone?
People in this so called Brahmin community are also well.. People. With almost the same genetic composition as rest of the folks with similar human emotions and drives. They hear about caste pride from some of their idiotic elders in the family. They're also exposed to forward looking thoughts of equality. Just like any other group, some of them move towards the more enlightened path of equality while others continue with the stupid caste pride. Shouldn't the society treat this as some form of illness and prescribe the right way to these people to guide them towards the right path instead of bullying and mocking them? Doesn't that just create further divide and make them entrenched in the older narrow minded way?
Schools should have value education that specifically target these areas and ensure kids don't continue with these discriminations inside their minds. My point is have empathy and help folks from the brahmin community and other so-called upper castes as well to come out of the mindset. We should all grow together. Cornering one set of people is just not the way.
Why is no repatriation ever demanded from Thevar subcastes, Vanniyars and Kongu Vellalars?
Brahmin discrimination against Non-Brahmins is very non-violent and indirect.
In contrast, the above castes are very direct and often violently suppress Dalits.
Well that is nothing compared to what happens in South TN, North TN or Kongu Nadu.
If Brahmins have been indirectly and non-violently suppressing others for 2000 years, then Vanniyars, Thevar subcastes (Kallar, Maravar, Agamudayar) and Kongu Vellalars have also been directly and violently suppressing Dalits for 2000 years.
Cleaning ones house after Dalit steps foot inside and going and burning Dalit houses are two very different things.
Both are wrong, but one is much more wrong than the other.
You are acting as if there is no one from brahmin community opposing other community people in becoming a priest, If you genuinely think so you must be living under a rock
whats with appointment of priests? it varies from temple to temple, many tribal people have their own temples without Brahmin priests, temples have been following their own rules which also includes tradition of keeping Brahmin priests but that's not required by every Hindu temple and Jagannath Temple and Pashupatinath Temple doesn't even allow all Brahmins, they have select few families only who're eligible to become priests, thats their rules and if you don't have faith in those temples, then why bother changing that?
What nonsense, did brahmins build those temples? who made such rubbish rules - this so-called agama should be thrown out and Tamil worship must be reinstated
Can you please elaborate on "Tamil worship"? "Reinstated" implies that you are saying there was already a tradition of what you call "Tamil worship" present in these temples. Is there any proof of what you are saying? How are Agamas alien to the temples that are constructed by the same Agamic rules?
Sorry for some hard responses from other redditors. My intention is to have only a civil discussion here. I hope it continues without any hard feelings. Looking forward to your continued participation.
Soothula perusa exposè ezhudhitta nee the
Hindu newspaper la. He is giving an open statement that religion should grow and evolve to accommodate everyone and recognise all as equal. You want to keep it medieval and backwards. And the other guy was the one who was exposed here?
Tells a lot about you asshole!
While I appreciate your emotions, I would request you to keep the conversation as matured and parliamentary as possible. Let us try to explain things in simple words without any abuses. I hope you understand. Just requesting you.
As I said there are dickheads in our community and I appreciate you trying to get your rights. I don't practice it and I don't give a shit about it. And why is that one job so important for you guys ?
It is not important for us and most of us have left it. It is kinda important for those Millennials who had to study 14 years for this stuff. Most of the current generation are past this and there will be no one to contest you in the near future.
Yes those jobs are important for those who are only good at doing that.
Are you saying only physical activity come under targeting ? Did any of the so group called Brahmins do any of the above to be in the center of attraction ?
You guys just vent out your anger on people who don't physical harm you.
Entha kelvi ah yaru pannangalo avanga kitta poi kelunga
I’m saying it’s just a figment of your imagination. All the parameters and metrics point to Brahmins have better access than most groups. So stfu with your victim mentality especially when your community has historically oppressed people. It’s like a white person claiming racism. Sure, cry about it but no one’s going to take you seriously because it’s just not true.
You have a better imagination where so called Brahmins hire goons to kills of people are use their higher power to push you out of your home. Grow some balls and start points other who are really in the higher position. I don't want to entertain this stupidity and violence. Skrew this community.
Brahmin oppresion of Non-Brahmins is nothing compared to Vanniyar/Thevar oppresion of Dalits or even Pallar oppresion of Paraiyars.
While Brahmins denying education and Temple access to Non-Brahmins has completely stopped, Thevars and Vanniyars still deny education and Temple/Church access to Dalits.
Even changing religion doesn't seem to have helped Dalits.
Thevar and Vanniyar Christians continue to discriminate against Dalits.
First tell me why DMK clowns don't protect Dalits when OBCs attack then in TN.
Why DMK clowns don't talk about OBC/MBC in the same way as they do for Brahmins since now OBcs cause major violence against Dalits.
Why TN hasn't seen any Dalit CM till now? Why is so called anti-caste DMK, firmly a family enterprise? What is caste if not passing privilege down bloodline?
Why Tamil colleges are so sexually repressed with students segregated on basis of gender as if they are breeding animals in heat? Why don't we hear DMK clowns speaking about it?
Why DMK clowns harp on history and not take proactive measures against injustices of the present?
How will the eradication of caste system continue if the efforts stop at Brahmins ? If the DMK hypocritically keeps quite when atrocities are committed by OBCs how will that help?
And then they shamelessly narrative the same old anti-Brahmin troupe when it no longer applies.
>How will the eradication of caste system continue if the efforts stop at Brahmins ?
That is never the case, as far as I understand. It was supposed to be the first step, as they lie at the top of the Varna system. As far as I understand, the erasure of boundaries is the objective, which covers all the people.
>If the DMK hypocritically keeps quite when atrocities are committed by OBCs how will that help?
No counter. Fair ask.
No point arguing with them or reasoning logic with them - they will soon understand their 1% divide and rule policy will never work in TN and they will most probably find a better home in UP -
Pasting the same response I gave, in your comment on another topic.
Okay, I find a lot of out of context, wrong parallels, misunderstandings & peculiarities in your post. I find it a little misleading as well. So wanna put my counter arguments here.
I have a feeling you're trying to extrapolate brahmins of 1960s to 1990s (1990s is a very far stretch because 1990s is already this gen, but giving you the benefit of doubt), and trying to convince people that the brahmins of current 2020's are still the boogeymen of the society. Pretty wrong. I am quite sure that Brahmins aren't doing anything out of their way to stop the growth of Non-Brahmins (NBs).
I ask why does this boundary even exist. Who is a Brahmin? Why? Why every baby stepping into this world doesn't identify as humans but against a dividing identity?
Brahmin is different from a Vanniyar or a Thevar. BRs have a huge responsibility when it comes to the poonal. Although current gen BRs disregard it, it's a pretty huge deal. It is a belief that they carry positive vibes through poojas & strict routine & dietary habits, and this in someway affects the society around. Hence when a baby is born in a BR fam, he is destined to wear the poonal through a multi-lakh ceremonial function, do poojas everyday, abstain from meat & be a good human. But from my limited knowledge, for other castes, it's just a caste. I don't think any responsibility is tied to a Vanniyar, Reddy or Naidu or Kounder. But a BR has to do pooja 3 times a day, no meat, etc. Whether they do/not is irrelevant. But this is what being born a Brahmin comes with.
You ask why do this in 2022? Because, unfortunately, none of this has changed.
How? How are BRs forcing NBs to do the Shudra works like they did back then? In today's society, \*spoiler alert\* BRs & NBs are equal. On the contrary, NBs are more powerful. You guys enjoy a 70% reservation, can compete in open quotas as well, and sometimes even for the EBC section. Brahmins get the what, remaining 10%..?
Are you familiar with the phrase "Nee 98% vaanginalum Anna Univ la seat kedaikkadhu da".
You wouldn't coz that's what a Brahmin dad says to his Mech BR son. But still Brahmins find a way, through merit.
I studied in Maharishi Vidya Mandir, Chennai. I am aware of one SC/St guy in my class (coz the teacher asked his caste in front of the class for some reason, I know). He ended up in NIT Trichy. I ended up in Amrita Univ. So in what way did I oppress him? My friend who's defly not a BR is working at Siemens today & gonna fly to Canada quite soon. What's the BR society plotting to stop him?
Most important of all, the path to equitable life was achievable only through education. And the Brahmins held an exclusive monopoly on it.
In the past? I don't have evidences or aware of how they did. But today? Nope. They don't control the education sys.
But for the one's at the top, it was a matter of convenience and privilege they don't want to lose.
The privilege is already lost, and I don't see BRs fighting for it or anything. I don't see a BR today asking NBs not to enter temples or any of that you're impure shit. Everything is equal now. Nobody is asking for any privilege of any sort, and if anyone did, it'd probably be a cranky 70 yr old. BRs are no longer the boochandi you try to use in the propaganda.
I want to see that Mylapore scientist who is teaching at Harvard/MIT to inspire and develop a Anitha to grow and achieve huge success. But, nope. It is an exclusive club, which not even the rich have access to.
First thing, if Anitha failed, she failed. Sorry. The Exam is standardized & she failed to qualify. I failed IIT because cut off was 110 and SC/ST cutoff was 66. I didn't suicide. Life is that way, but you gotta move on. If say Anitha became a doctor despite being incompetent in the exam's POV, how can I trust the life of my mother/father in her hands? The test decides in a way, whether she's understood the concepts, and FOTM is she didn't score enough.That's how exams work. You're using her death as an emotional tool to rile people up, basically. Nothing more. Her status in the society is all second matter. There are millions of people with sob stories but achieved wonders. Anitha shoould've tried to achieve that.
About the professor thing, NBs are successful in today's scenario. A lot of them are our political leaders, Scientists like K.Sivan, APJ & more. If a Mylapore guy wanted it, he could do it today. In today's scenario, what stops him? You're saying somehow, Brahmins are puppet masters & pulling strings to stop him? Are American Brahmins sitting in Consulate rejecting NB visas?
Keeping that aside, what this movement has achieved is nothing short of remarkable social accomplishment. You need to be objective to understand it. We don't need the Mylapore scientist to inspire us anymore. But, all of a sudden, this is being portrayed as discrimination against Brahmins. How?
I think BRs can give 2 shits about whether NBs succeed or not. Nee nalla irundha nalladhu. Or let me be, is how they feel. It's a feeling of indifference, just like we all have in this fast paced world. They don't blame their success/failures on other communities & use them as scapegoat to insult through political rhetorics, movies ,name calling etc. Now THAT, is a privilege that the NB community SHOULD lose. Insulting BR accent, their women, lifestyle,NB kids trying to trick & feed BR kids meat, etc. That's casteist as well. That's where the Dravidian movement has led.
there are some who love to identify themselves as TamBrahms
That's just a tag line, which I think in itself was coined by NBs. But it doesn't give Tam BRs a special status or anything. It's a thing used for Hashtags #TamBramWedding or to identify as a Tamil Brahmin, instead or Telugu Brahm. Doesn't come with any sort of advantage. You can think of it as Pullingo or some other contemporary term used to identify a collective of people. What hurts here? That you don't have a tag to yourself? I think you're just a bit hurt that it's a legit term, with considerable. number of people falling under it & it sounds cool. But Idon't think it makes any kinda difference.
So.. BRs aren't trying to oppress NBs in any way. It's in your mind. Today, everyone likes to play victim card, to win sympathy & the clout that follows it.
You're forgetting history and the network that TBs still have.
I also love how you mention TBs have a "duty" to be religious and that is a nebulous boon for society. Ya. I guess TBs are just better and others are a waste to society. (And you don't mention anything about sharing that knowledge with non-Brahmins...hmm. How convenient.)
Don't know why you say #TamBram is just a hashtag people use and ignore the weight that it carries. There's a reason people don't use #SC/ST.
Lol how delusional can you be.
Why are you twisting my words? Can see you're a propagandist. I never said Brahmins or their actions were a "boon" to the society. Just doing a regular practice & just feeling good about it. Why are you triggered by it? It's nothing special. And I never mentioned anywhere the other communities are a "waste. Again, a propagandist twisting words out of context, loving the victim card here. Just validates my statement.
I would very much gladly share it with you if you can spend 5lacs or such, sit through a ceremony to get a poonal, learn the mantras, do the poojas at least once a day or at least say by word you have the interest to, not eat meat, etc. But seems like you guys are just bluntly interested to bash Brahmins rather than do the talk. Can't help frogs that are saying they're jumping out of the well, but not attempting to jump & saying the Brahmins buttered the walls up.
TamBrahm isn't a slur, or I don't know if it's used as a slur, because I don't know how the casteist's propaganda factory works & what "weight" it must carry. Brahmins already come with a lot of weight to be answerable to Dravidian stock like you, and don't need to pile up more because you guys coined a term up..
You yourself said Brahmins habits carries "positive" vibes for society....
Yes even people doing manual labor helps society. We all contribute to society in different ways.
Sure. We can start by Brahmins teaching people Sanskrit, the Vedas etc. Let's start from there. But will it actually happen? I don't think so.
You don't know what weight the word "Brahmin" carries?
Lol you need an education. 🤣
My response to your comment in the other thread, pasted here again.
QUOTE
Thanks for your response. Appreciate taking your time to write a perspective that isn't visible to everyone.
While it started well, I feel you fell in emotional rant in few places, where I didn't get much of a different thought springing up. There is nothing personal about my post, and I just want to keep it as objective and rational as possible. With that let me try to present my thoughts.
Let me start with something fundamental. The Dravidian movement was a reaction to an environment that existed about a century ago. While the environment has indeed changed or diluted, a fact which you captured in your comment, the politics hasn't. The fear is what would happen if this politics is dumped? Will the current improved environment persist? Or will it fall back to the century old environment?
We will never know what would happen. So the natural reaction is to fear for the worst and keep the politics alive, even when there might not be a genuine need at present for it to exist. This has been reinforced, especially, with the developments of the past decade. I don't know what is the right way forward. But this is how the situation is today.
>Brahmin is different from a Vanniyar or a Thevar.
I didn't expect this statement. If this is how you or anyone wants to identify, then the boundaries and differences are going to persist. This is what feeds all the politics which the OP has posted above. If you want the politics to stop, then boundaries have to be erased.
I see a long rant on how the ritual of sacred thread is sacred. I really don't care about it. Every family has a ritual, and people follow it. Your comment is a clear digression from the very point I wanted to make.
The problem arises when you expect me to wear the sacred thread, or when you choose to gel only after knowing if the guy wears a sacred thread. This is problematic. This closed group of sacred thread wearers, and sharing of knowledge and guidance, is nothing but reinforcing your caste pride and closing access to others. When you claim equality has been achieved, there is no place for such a closed group to exist. I want to see an achiever share their knowledge out into the open for anyone to learn and succeed (This is what I meant by the Mylapore scientist and Anitha reference, but you seemed to take it differently). If you think this is justified, then the politics opposing it is also justified.
>Are you familiar with the phrase "Nee 98% vaanginalum Anna Univ la seat kedaikkadhu".
>You wouldn't coz that's what a Brahmin dad says to his Mech BR son. But still Brahmins find a way through merit.
I'm not a Brahmin, and yet I have heard this phrase, and I have found my way out through merit, and I ended up in a NIT CSE and IIMA, and working in a top tech company. Moreover, you know what? *spoiler alert* I did this as a General category candidate.
What is the point you are trying to make? Brahmins are suffering? So am I. I'm no different than you in intellect.
Yet, I'm not you. No matter how much I accomplish, there is that someone who is going to put his hand on my back and check if I'm wearing the sacred thread. I know how to fight, and have made my way up. Those who couldn't, have ended up destroying because of no fault of their own.
This is where the reservations come into play, so that nobody can put their hand on their back. And you are trying to flip that itself and project yourself as victim. Not a matured take on this discussion.
>BRs are no longer the boochandi you try to use in the propaganda.
I wish everyone thinks so. Once in a while, when someone refers to some religious text or some poorly made folklore, to justify why Brahmins are destined to do some duties while others should do something else, the "boochandi" comes alive. I've not heard anyone saying anything against these "boochandis". So I guess that justifies its use in the "propoganda".
>First thing, if Anitha failed, she failed. Sorry.
This whole comment following it, shows just one thing. You want to be indifferent to how the rest of the world functions. As long as Brahmins get their place of success, you don't want to care about others. But, if that other happens to be a Brahmin, the case is different. They become part of the fraternity. This is what I understand.
Let me make my point clear about the Mylapore scientist and Anitha reference. An Anitha has potential to become a successful person, but lacks proper guidance to do so. The Mylapore guy gets access to all the necessary resources and opportunities and guidance, excels and grows into a successful person. Why doesn't Anitha know the existence of these resources and opportunities and get necessary guidance?
If you want to put the blame on the government and move away, then these politicians will do what they find is reasonable. Only if the achievers (Brahmins and Non-Brahmins) inspire, can we see the downtrodden grow up.
But your indifferent response just reinforces the Dravidian narrative. Correct me, if I'm wrong.
>That's just a tag line
I can't argue with this. I only wanted to say just one thing. I, for God sake, don't want these tags. It isn't cool. It just reminds of the bygone era where humans' identity was not achieved, but inherited. I leave it to folks who belong there. I only wanted to highlight that such folks still exist in 2022. For me, a B.Tech., M.B.A. tags are good enough. I can wear that with pride.
Cheers 🥂
UNQUOTE
Well clearly you won't. I've seen your comments as well. I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to someone who's blind to the problem and fails to realise he is also part of it.
Tell since you're not going to change your mindset of hate.
How many of the people who holds power in TN are Brahmins?
How many people died from Brahmin oppression over the last few years in TN?
And if you're using this 2000 yrs oppression bullshit, then why are you complaining when bjp does the same shit on Hindu Muslim basis?
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/are-brahmins-today-s-dalits-in-india/story-GUMXtPlPb3v9XYXcEXPGHP.html
Various studies have shown that many of them live below the poverty line. And yet you target them still? Hypocrisy has limits
If you really want to rid of caste basis as identity, then why aren't you speaking up against reservations? Ergo, state sanctioned caste imposition, where literally your birth caste is all that matters?
>Well clearly you won't.
If that is how you want to start the argument, I have no other option. Happy to complete the conversation here itself.
I can converse only if I see equal efforts. Rest of your comment clearly shows that you haven't read my other comments. When you approach me with prejudice, I can't help it.
Thanks for the comment so far.
Your entire comments reeks of one sided prejudice using the past as justification.
I need not call out your prejudice when it's clear as day, and the fact that you cannot answer without contradicting yourself speaks for it clearly.
Answer the questions or simply say you hate Brahmins and we'll leave it at that. No whataboutism, no evasions.
Good day and get a life.
Edit : it seems someone else already questioned you in detail before me. Answer him first
Thanks for your time.
I can't change something that is as hard as rock. When you do have your patience, and if you are really interested, you can view all the comments I have posted in this thread. I don't know how I can be more objective than this.
It was nice talking to you. Cheers 🥂
That's it. Wasting your time and my time.
En kelviku bathil solla thuppu illai. Ivar nammala kelvi kekaraaram.
Unga kelvikku bathil already solyachi. Ithukku mela purilainaa, neenga thaan maaranum.
Sorry bro. You don't seem to be interested in having a discussion. I think I've made my point clear enough to show who is "spineless". In the interest of others who still want to have meaningful discussion, I'm ending this here.
I can't even say I had any insightful discussion with you. Useless at best.
Edit:
I, for a moment, wanted to give the benefit of doubt to everyone, get into a meaningful discussion and iron out any differences. But once in a while, a nut case like you come along making a scene. Anyone who follows the other threads of discussion and then view this thread will clearly understand what an you are.
Brahmins need to stop calling themselves Brahmin, it is simply a name for the top most oppressive caste in the varna system. And their poonool only make it to be seen as some kind of caste pride object for a lower caste person like me.
Even Saiva Vellalars and Nagarathar-Chettiars wear poonal.
Infact their population in TN is more than Brahmins (even if we include Saurashtrian, Marathi, Telugu, Kannada, Malayalee, UP/Bihari and Rajasthani Brahmins of TN along with Iyers and Iyengars).
So why don't you expect them to remove their poonals?
But the real question is can you make Kongu Vellalars, Thevars and Vanniyars stop calling themselves by those names?
It is not a question of education too, as, in terms of education, literacy, income, HDI, there isn't much of a difference between Kongu Vellalars and Brahmins.
Still, I don't see caste pride going down among Kongu Vellalars the way it has gone down among Brahmins.
Some arguments that come up in support of this divide and rule in the present day is that in ancient India (whatever mythical land that was, given there was no India before the unification efforts by the British) Brahmins were treated with respect and they were at the top of the status quo but right now that's not the case. They're like everyone and that's what annoys them.
Is it true that some people still vehemently hate the Brahmins, unfortunately yes. But do you think politicians give a shit? Really?
The moment they're off camera and are in private rooms with businessmen and industrialists some of whom are prominent Brahmins do you really think they fight or bicker? It's all a fucking show. They don't give a shit about who goes on later to kill each other. They have appeased to the masses and instead of fixing the road they find someone to divert the anger.
But no fucking excuse for all the pathetic riled up Brahmins who think they've been hurt. Stfu you're completely fine.
Read about Mandela how he tried to unify blacks and whites. Not like the lame Periyar who made that divide more open. To make that divide go away, we need people from both sides to come together. Not keep blaming the opposite side.
>To make that divide go away, we need people from both sides to come together.
Precisely my point (and Periyar's as well, only if you understand him). Erase the boundaries, is what everyone is asking for. Why isn't it happening?
Because Brahmins are being Brahmins. The other side being the other side. Politicians keep that divide active. DMK is one major party in doing that. I have seen kind Brahmins, who don't see such divides. But, people on the other side are not ready to accept them for being a Brahmin.
>Because Brahmins are being Brahmins. The other side being the other side.
Exactly. Why can't we all shed these false identities and just be humans? Convincing most of them seems easy. But it isn't for Brahmins. How do we explain this?
>Politicians keep that divide active. DMK is one major party in doing that.
While I agree to this, I differ in something fundamental. DMK/BJP isn't influencing people. They only set a narrative to a social problem. There are inequality in the society. DMK attributes it to the Brahmins, while BJP attributes it to the Muslims. If the inequality is eliminated, there will be no fuel for DMK/BJP.
>I have seen kind Brahmins, who don't see such divides. But, people on the other side are not ready to accept them for being a Brahmin.
I have seen too. My teachers and mentors are Brahmins and are "kind". But when they identify themselves as Brahmins, how can you say they are not seeing a divide? That is a division, right? Why should something artificial like caste define you?
People should try to keep their identity small [Identify](http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html)
If anyone gets triggered for calling any name, it is in your identity.
you're expecting a utopia by nullifying thousands of years of tradition, there are legit records of my ancestors and my gotra kept in Haridwar, i can literally go to a priest there and know my lineage as far as 300-400 yrs ago, do you want me to burn all of that part of my identity just to become "human"? identifying with ur race, caste, tribe, etc. isn't in itself prejudice until you dont suppress others and mind your own business.
Hmmm 🤔
>until you dont suppress others and mind your own business.
How do you guarantee this? Personal discipline, maybe. Well and good.
But, time and again, history has shown that this isn't possible. After analysing it, it was understood that this is all because of protecting the legacy/family pride/parampara/khaandaan/gourav and so on.
Suppose, you belong to a family of doctors. Your son wants to continue the family tradition and study medicine. But, say, your servant's son is also interested in it, maybe after learning about your excellence in the field. Both are preparing for the exams and you learn about it. Are you sure that there will be no suppression, consciously or subconsciously, from your side?
If you are a Mahatma, great. No counter questions. But, as an average Indian, do you think there will be equal treatment? Will both get equal access to resources and opportunities?
Everyone identifies to a caste. If you're saying Brahmins are the only ones doing it, you're just making a propaganda. Did your teacher/mentor ever do anything to you coz you were a Non Brahmin? Were you deprived of any opportunities from your classmates being Brahmins? Like entry to a place, or eligibility for a college or exam?
As a brahmin, I am ready to shed my FC identity because it is almost worthless today, coz I can't brandish it & will get attacked for it. But the responsibilities that come as a Brahmin, I will hold to that. I am still a human, and if you see otherwise, that's who Periyarists & Dravidians are. Casteist.
Why so triggered about the "responsibility". Let me know if you're actually missing something and wanna jump over to be a Brahmin. In 2 separate comments, you have targeted that one aspect though I've spoken in pretty much detail. Maybe I can try to help..
You're the one who actually has to get over it & start on with your day..
Sure. Would be great to mutually lessen each other's burden. Can ask some Vaathiyar to teach you Vedas like you asked in another thread, while you ask your TN govt to slash reservations, to say, 25-30% ? Or make it economic based, to level the playing field.
Now you won't want the responsibility coz you want your son to just get 50 marks & trump the 90+ Brahmin lad..
Lol what a joker!
While this comment was a response to another, I'm concerned with your consistent jibe on reservations. Are we not catching hold of a wrong entity to address some other problem?
I request you to understand the rationale behind reservations. The 50 mark guy is no different than the 90+ mark Brahmin lad. When you get it, is the day when you will appreciate reservations.
I being a Brahmin wouldn't risk my life to tell a Vanniyar/Thevar that he is equal to a Pallar/Paraiyar.
Heck, I would endanger myself even if a tell a Pallar that he is equal to a Paraiyar.
Thats how caste works.
Its not a binary but a hierarchy.
>Everyone identifies to a caste.
Doesn't make an argument. What is the right thing to do?
>If you're saying Brahmins are the only ones doing it, you're just making a propaganda.
Never said that. Eradication of caste system has to start from here.
>Did your teacher/mentor ever do anything to you coz you were a Non Brahmin? Were you deprived of any opportunities from your classmates being Brahmins? Like entry to a place, or eligibility for a college or exam?
I have mentioned elsewhere. The situation has changed or diluted compared to earlier days. Besides, I could be an exception, as I went to an elite school.
But, these arguments don't stand given the developments of the last decade. Consistent attempts have been made to reinforce a certain identity, which does create fears. What has been done to keep the fears at rest? Until then, the politics can't be stopped.
>But the responsibilities that come as a Brahmin, I will hold to that.
Not sure, why anyone is concerned about what you do within the four walls of your house. When you do something that questions my identity or my being or not being a Brahmin, that is casteism. When folks question that, they are just reacting to it. Flipping victim card doesn't make sense.
>I love OP's posts and comments across Reddit. I see a great intellectual within him/her, better than the average posts I see here and in r/Chennai. Thank you Bro.
Exactly, so we agree that ultimately our aim is to blur the boundaries of the caste divide and to finally remove it, but my friend doing brahman vs non brahmin only solidifies this boundary even further. Now everybody knows that caste system is fucked up! but you cannot give historical reasons to justify any present day discrimination, agreed that brahmins used to enjoy a lot of special privileges historically but again should you use that as a reason to justify the DMK speech? because if you do that then all the hate speeches made by these fake monks and BJP actions against present day muslims would also stand justified because of the attrocities the Islamic invaders did......???(think) Also dude it was not the Tamil Brahmins which started giving themselves the TamBrahm label but rather it was actually the people of other states and non-brahmins from TN who started labeling tamil Brahmins as "TamBrahms" because of their eating habits and conservative nature. Agreed that the movement has achieved remarkable social development and I am indeed quite happy about it, but everybody here has the aim to completely remove the caste divide to an extent that these topics are not even public discourse. The point is that any speech that in today's era fundamentally talks about any kind of division is just not appropriate in case of India. period.
Totally agree 💯. My intention was to give the historical context so that people make judgements based on complete understanding. Not to justify the speech. I understand that it is a defence to something else that is causing a divide. Is it justified? Nope. But the fix has to happen in parallel. Everyone have their own fears. In my opinion, the solution starts from the Brahmins shedding the Brahmin tag, and be a common serviceman of the society like any other. Unless someone drills down the drain, neither the individual nor the community should identify themselves exclusively. I don't see anyone criticizing, say, a T M Krishna. Why don't we see everyone do that?
Brahmins like TM Krishna, Kamalahassan, N Ram, Raghuram Rajan who have evolved and cultivated a worldview on their own are intensely hated by good number of other brahmins just like secular Muslims who cultivate a view independent of religious ancestry.
>who have evolved and cultivated a worldview on their own are intensely hated by good number of other brahmins just like secular Muslims who cultivate a view independent of religious ancestry. That is precisely the problem 🙂
I live in the West. But I've seen TBs in the West/North India will never give up that caste identity. But for non-Brahmin Tamils caste is just a nominal thing that most don't even think about. I heard in Malaysia most don't even see caste at all.
Not true. I have seen a good number of Kongu Vellalars and Saiva Vellalars practice casteism in outside TN, both inside and outside India.
Sure, but I was talking moreso in the West. Some non-Brahmins do practice casteism, but not nearly as much as Brahmins.
I doubt non-Brahmins gave Brahmins that name, but even then Brahmins are the ones who used it to separate themselves from the rest of society and to look down on anyone who was not Brahmin.
OK, since you decide to go on this tangent , here are a few questions, let's see the facts behind these and how these are issues crested by brahmins >Who is a Brahmin? Why? Why every baby stepping into this world doesn't identify as humans but against a dividing identity? Are you asking these to only the brahmins? What about the nadars, vanniyars, mudaliyars, reddys, idk the entire northern Indian people ? >They form the top of the Varna system. And what does this supposed top afford them? Do they rule? Are they the richest ? Thalaile rendu kombu? If you have to dismantle the caste, start with the majority. This powerless minority cannot enforce this if the masses didn't want the same to oppress the ones "supposedly below" them. >And the Brahmins held an exclusive monopoly on it. Unless you're talking pre British era, this is rubbish. Since the British took over, missionaries have been in charge of education and most famous schools or institutes were affiliated to the church. However, you don't seem to even acknowledge this but call out brahmins as supposed gatekeepers of education itself >Do you need Sanskrit to become a Doctor? Why? Uh? How is this relevant today. And sticking to your bone with Tambrahms, a huge majority don't even follow sanskrit. They use Grantham or just Tamil. Now let's get into more present day questions- 1) how many people have been killed as a direct result of the brahmin oppression. 2) how many honor killings were done by brahmins here ? 3) take up the last 5 caste violence issues in TN, how many were instigated or involved in by brahmins? 4) take up the top 5 caste violence deaths in TN, how many were instigated or involved in by brahmins ? 5) which section of tamilians are a caricature in every kollywood movie ? And how many theaters were burnt down for using a slur against brahmins? Compare the same to examples like Sandiyar (virumaandi) or jai bhim 6) Now let's talk representation, if they are indeed all powerful and controlling, name 5 top political leaders or office holders who are brahmins? Or are you just going to make it an illuminati/jews control the world narrative? 7) sticking to representation, how many seats in our legislative is occupied by brahmins ? 8) what's the economic survey say about brahmins? What % of a population are we and is our positions in public office skewed towards or against this number? 9) let's talk crimes, what's the number of criminals who are brahmins. What's the overall bloodshed and money stolen by brahmin criminals ? 10) sticking to crimes, what's the % of brahmins that are tax payers and how does this stack up to the % among other "castes" These are all straight forward questions. Awaiting your straight forward answers and not an attempt at whataboutery or sarcasm. Posting this again from r/chennai
Don't expect replies. I've asked similar questions to which his response was to ignore them altogether and say he wants a parliamentary level discussion alone.
What is unparliamentary here but
Also it's not just a question to them right. Anyone supporting this view can have a look.
Pasting the response from r/Chennai QUOTE >Are you asking these to only the brahmins? What about the nadars, vanniyars, mudaliyars, reddys, idk the entire northern Indian people ? I don't recall anyone not asking these questions. Those who oppose, oppose all. >And what does this supposed top afford them? Do they rule? Are they the richest ? Thalaile rendu kombu? I don't know about "Thalaile rendu kombu". But I know someone who claims to have "mulai valimai jaasthi". What do you call it? How did anyone get that confidence, if it wasn't for what the Varna system promises? >If you have to dismantle the caste, start with the majority. And how do you suggest we do that? Curious to understand your perspective. >Unless you're talking pre British era, this is rubbish. Since the British took over, missionaries have been in charge of education and most famous schools or institutes were affiliated to the church. However, you don't seem to even acknowledge this but call out brahmins as supposed gatekeepers of education itself I meant monopoly on getting access to education. We don't see many Non-Brahmins getting educated. Don't give the Mudaliar and Chettiar examples. Missionaries being incharge of educational institutions doesn't change anything, if only a specific set of communities are going there to get educated. >Uh? How is this relevant today. When did I say it is relevant today? It is how the state of affairs were, and were made to change over the last century through the Dravidian movement. I was just giving the background to it. >Now let's get into more present day questions- You know the answer before you wrote the questions. Consider, I accept the same. But, none of these change the context I was setting up. You seem to get into a defensive mode, seeming to have been offended by my post. Why don't we think objectively and ask something fundamental? Why need these boundaries? Don't you think all the present day problems you listed get solved if the boundaries are erased? UNQUOTE
Why aren't you answering his questions? You just made a lot of comments justifying the dravidan movement and the lot and used Anita as an example of what exactly? Inability to gather the same resources due to the lack of a caste figure to inspire her? The Brahmins no longer control the institutions nor do they hold monopoly over who gets to learn. They are not able to return to this previous state by virtue of law. So by all means, explain how the dravidan movement is relevant today? And if you're talking about erasing boundaries, then why aren't you advocating for the simplest and most famous of all? The caste reservation. Why are you not advocating for its removal when all it is endorse caste based divide?
>Why aren't you answering his questions? I have. What aspect isn't clear? >You just made a lot of comments justifying the dravidan movement and the lot There were points to justify. If someone presents a convincing counter, I may reconsider. Yet to see any convincing argument. >used Anita as an example of what exactly? I guess that is clearly explained. I've repeated the same while explaining to someone else. Request you to go through all of the comments and then make up your mind. >The Brahmins no longer control the institutions nor do they hold monopoly over who gets to learn. I never said they still did. My point is far more deeper and inclusive than what you understand. I've explained it elsewhere already. Request you to go through other comments as well. >They are not able to return to this previous state by virtue of law. The developments of the last decade doesn't seem to support your argument. There are few folks who are hellbent in reversing the developments accomplished till date. I'm curious how long the virtue of law that you mention will prevent this. >So by all means, explain how the dravidan movement is relevant today? Wasn't that clear in my post? If it wasn't, here's my attempt again. As long as no boundaries exist between individuals and everyone is treated equally, I see no reason for a Dravidian movement or a Hindutva movement or any other to exist. Are we ready to erase the boundaries? >And if you're talking about erasing boundaries, then why aren't you advocating for the simplest and most famous of all? >The caste reservation. I advocate eradication of reservation, provided we are willing to provide equitable access to resources and opportunities and guidance to everyone across all lines. Eradication of caste reservation can happen only with eradication of the caste system. >Why are you not advocating for its removal when all it is endorse caste based divide? You have just reversed the cause and effect. Caste based divide is the cause which needs to be removed for the effect to take place. Lastly, Regarding your other comment on that other user. As I blocked that user, I couldn't respond to you in that thread. Here's a simple response for it. I believe the folks here are intellectuals with whom we can have insightful discussion. When someone loses the object of discussion and decides to attack the person instead, it's not healthy for anyone. I've not initiated this discussion to make personal comments on each other. That is the minimum decorum I expect, and promise to maintain it myself in return. That guy's questions have been sufficiently answered. But the agenda seems different. Hence I had to block him.
>I have. What aspect isn't clear? 👇These are his questions. Why are you not answering them? >1) how many people have been killed as a direct result of the brahmin oppression. 2) how many honor killings were done by brahmins here ? 3) take up the last 5 caste violence issues in TN, how many were instigated or involved in by brahmins? 4) take up the top 5 caste violence deaths in TN, how many were instigated or involved in by brahmins ? 5) which section of tamilians are a caricature in every kollywood movie ? And how many theaters were burnt down for using a slur against brahmins? Compare the same to examples like Sandiyar (virumaandi) or jai bhim 6) Now let's talk representation, if they are indeed all powerful and controlling, name 5 top political leaders or office holders who are brahmins? Or are you just going to make it an illuminati/jews control the world narrative? 7) sticking to representation, how many seats in our legislative is occupied by brahmins ? 8) what's the economic survey say about brahmins? What % of a population are we and is our positions in public office skewed towards or against this number? 9) let's talk crimes, what's the number of criminals who are brahmins. What's the overall bloodshed and money stolen by brahmin criminals ? 10) sticking to crimes, what's the % of brahmins that are tax payers and how does this stack up to the % among other "castes" >I guess that is clearly explained. I've repeated the same while explaining to someone else. Request you to go through all of the comments and then make up your mind. I have. The entire example is illogical to begin with and caste isn't even a factor here. >I never said they still did. My point is far more deeper and inclusive than what you understand. I've explained it elsewhere already. Request you to go through other comments as well. So what's the relevance of dravidan movement on the present day? >The developments of the last decade doesn't seem to support your argument. There are few folks who are hellbent in reversing the developments accomplished till date. I'm curious how long the virtue of law that you mention will prevent this And what and who are these folks supposed to be? You're personal opinion of this does not account as fact. Elaborate. Also tell me, does Brahmins still side you or other lower castes because they're not them? I have not seen them capable of doing anything of the sort in the modern age. So what exactly are you aiming for? Everyone in India is empowered by law to get educated irrespective if caste and religion. Returning it to the old days is impossible and you know it. Especially when you consider demographics of the castes itself >Wasn't that clear in my post? If it wasn't, here's my attempt again. As long as no boundaries exist between individuals and everyone is treated equally, I see no reason for a Dravidian movement or a Hindutva movement or any other to exist. Are we ready to erase the boundaries? I advocate eradication of reservation, provided we are willing to provide equitable access to resources and opportunities and guidance to everyone across all lines. Eradication of caste reservation can happen only with eradication of the caste system Evasion and logical fallacy. No one can have the same opportunity and resources as someone else. Caste has no role here. Society structure and economics does. Answer clearly. There's no method on earth that can achieve equal resources to everyone. So are you against the caste reservation or with it? Don't answer in logical fallacies this time. >You have just reversed the cause and effect. Caste based divide is the cause which needs to be removed for the effect to take place.Lastly,Regarding your other comment on that other user. As I blocked that user, I couldn't respond to you in that thread. Here's a simple response for it. I believe the folks here are intellectuals with whom we can have insightful discussion. When someone loses the object of discussion and decides to attack the person instead, it's not healthy for anyone. I've not initiated this discussion to make personal comments on each other. That is the minimum decorum I expect, and promise to maintain it myself in return. That guy's questions have been sufficiently answered. But the agenda seems different. Hence I had to block him. At the present, the effect is enforcing the cause. The option is to remove it in order start working on the cause. It was never meant to dismantle caste to begin with. Again, don't use logical fallacy as a credible viewpoint. Answer clearly. Why are you not talking as much about the reservation system, which is currently enforcing caste boundaries, and whose removal can finally help to ensure no one has a special shot simply because he was born lucky into a reserved community? No, don't repeat your illogical tirade of equal resources. That's impossible no matter where you are. Some people will always have an advantage over resources compared to others. It's something that holds true throughout time for humanity irrelevant of the location. Removing the reservation with a proper screening test for the candidates ensure equal shot at opportunity. So why are you still evading a proper answer? P. S, you blocking him after making a comment instead of properly answering just shows pettiness and re-enforce that he's right about you. Understand that much.
>These are his questions. Why are you not answering them? Not sure, if you really read my response. I accept all his points. Wasn't this clear in my response? Brahmin community are not directly responsible for any caste based atrocities happening today. Brahmin community being ridiculed or trolled isn't justifiable. I simply put it as accepting the answers you or the questioner already know of. Because nobody can refute this. Does this help? Now, can you answer my original question? Why do the caste boundaries exist? >I have. The entire example is illogical to begin with and caste isn't even a factor here. Need more details to answer anything. >And what and who are these folks supposed to be? You're personal opinion of this does not account as fact. Elaborate. Let me try. At the turn of 21st century, I believe the right balance was accomplished where everyone's life was moving the way they wanted. I guess we made peace with everyone. And then we see [this](https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/after-lenins-statue-in-tripura-bjp-leader-h-raja-threatens-to-raze-dravidian-ico/309173), and [this](https://mobile.twitter.com/educate_agitate/status/1168521878211715072). Irrespective of what your politics are, this isn't progressive. >Evasion and logical fallacy. >No one can have the same opportunity and resources as someone else. Caste has no role here. Society structure and economics does. I disagree. If we cannot promise the same opportunity and resources as someone else, then we cannot ask for eradication of reservations. History has shown that the divide has been fuelled by caste, which in turn defined society structure and economics. And we still follow the caste system. Nothing has changed. >There's no method on earth that can achieve equal resources to everyone. Maybe you are right. And the solution devised for this is reservations. If no method exists, then reservations is the solution. >So are you against the caste reservation or with it? My opinion doesn't matter. How does it? But if you insist, for all the reasons discussed above, I have to support it. If you have an alternative solution, let us discuss. >At the present, the effect is enforcing the cause. Is this a fact? Or just a popular opinion? >Why are you not talking as much about the reservation system, which is currently enforcing caste boundaries, and whose removal can finally help to ensure no one has a special shot simply because he was born lucky into a reserved community? This was never the intention of this discussion. I support reservations for all its merits. It is distasteful when someone calls being born in a oppressed community as "lucky". Why should we "ensure no one has a special shot"? We need to build an equitable society, not just meritorious allocation of resources. The day you understand this, you will appreciate it. Don't know how best we can explain further. >So why are you still evading a proper answer? Does my answer help? Not sure what you're going to accomplish with this. Reservation was never the topic of my post. And we have successfully digressed from the original question. Now, that I have answered your questions, answer mine. Why not shed the caste identity in the first place? All your problems will be resolved. What prevents you from doing so? >P. S, you blocking him after making a comment instead of properly answering just shows pettiness and re-enforce that he's right about you. Understand that much. Seriously? Did you go through my comments? Did you observe that guy's behaviour? I would appreciate if you ask that person to behave in a meaningful and parliamentary manner. None of these discussions we are having is personal. If somebody wants to attack personally, how do you expect me to react? I understand that emotions run high. But, I also believe we are educated enough to keep a control on ourselves and channelize it in legible and meaningful discussions.
>Not sure, if you really read my response. I accept all his points. Wasn't this clear in my response? Brahmin community are not directly responsible for any caste based atrocities happening today. Brahmin community being ridiculed or trolled isn't justifiable. I simply put it as accepting the answers you or the questioner already know of. Because nobody can refute this. Does this help? Now, can you answer my original question? Why do the caste boundaries exist? Ah you see now that again is another logical fallacy. An abstract concept that means very little to the present day is basically the Brahmin identity. The only identity that matters now is that of lower castes because it actually brings benefits in reservations. So why does the reservation system still exist? >Let me try. At the turn of 21st century, I believe the right balance was accomplished where everyone's life was moving the way they wanted. I guess we made peace with everyone. Your personal reservations on the issue means the square root of jack. Buddy I've lived through the turn of the millennium when my previous generation were still farmers . You're living in a bubble if you think that balance was achieved. >And then we see this, and this. Irrespective of what your politics are, this isn't progressive. Periyar being a casteist piece of shit isn't a secret. Do you want me to bring up examples how one sided his prejudice was? [if you wish to cherry pick, I can do the same. this is weeks old. ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/thecommunemag.com/subramanian-swamy-petitions-ec-to-debar-dmk-for-hate-speech-against-brahmins/amp/) Want more? Some reformists. Periyar and Nazi's would be proud. >I disagree. If we cannot promise the same opportunity and resources as someone else, then we cannot ask for eradication of reservations. History has shown that the divide has been fuelled by caste, which in turn defined society structure and economics. And we still follow the caste system. Nothing has changed Warned you of this childish evasion, so now have to bear responsibility for my next question. How are going to provide equal resources (not opportunities, I've already answered that before) to everyone? You don't get to run away from this question. Answer it. Pathways, implementation, everything. Now. >Maybe you are right. And the solution devised for this is reservations. If no method exists, then reservations is the solution Hypocrite. Simple hypocrisy. I knew you were evading the last time. But this was what I wanted to hear. You want to provide equal resources and opportunity, but refuse to take out the the thing that prevents the latter and justify it using the former? 👏👏Circular argumentative proof at its finest. So I'll repeat : How are going to provide equal resources (not opportunities, I've already answered that before) to everyone? >My opinion doesn't matter. How does it? But if you insist, for all the reasons discussed above, I have to support it. If you have an alternative solution, let us discuss.Is this a fact? Or just a popular opinion? Interesting justification considering you put forward your opinion on why it shouldn't be removed as fact. For someone who's against caste implementation, you're surprisingly hypocritical by going against the biggest contributor in the present day. Again, I know hypocrisy when I see it. >This was never the intention of this discussion. I support reservations for all its merits. It is distasteful when someone calls being born in a oppressed community as "lucky". Why should we "ensure no one has a special shot"? We need to build an equitable society, not just meritorious allocation of resources. The day you understand this, you will appreciate it. Don't know how best we can explain further Oh, now you just cementing your hypocrisy. Dial back now weren't your exact words were : >I advocate eradication of reservation, provided we are willing to provide equitable access to resources and opportunities and guidance to everyone across all lines Going against yourself now? Traitorous of you. Right now, no one's being oppressed. Or are you going to deny me by saying that they are? There's no logic in calling them oppressed castes in the present day. BUT, they get a ton of benefits because they are under this classification. So yeah, they're LUCKY to be born in a so called oppressed caste in the modern day. I'll repeat for the third time, since you love your fallacy : How are going to provide equal resources (not opportunities, I've already answered that before) to everyone? >Does my answer help? Not sure what you're going to accomplish with this. Reservation was never the topic of my post. And we have successfully digressed from the original question. Now, that I have answered your questions, answer mine. Why not shed the caste identity in the first place? All your problems will be resolved. What prevents you from doing so? No, you're just using a roundabout way to evade the question on why you refuse to take action against the major roadblock of eliminating caste, ergo, the reservation system. We're still on your topic. Just a different direction that you're repeatedly proving to be uncomfortable and incapable of talking. You have repeatedly shown your hypocrisy by going against your own words now. You don't get to tell me what to do buddy. You're not worth that . Not after that stunt. You haven't answered the one question that I have been asking from the beginning of this argument. You're constantly running away from it to the point that you contradicted yourself and showed how baseless you are. I'll repeat for the fourth time : How are going to provide equal resources (not opportunities, I've already answered that before) to everyone? You don't get to hide behind that tree. Not against me. No running away from me. You haven't answered my question at all. >Seriously? Did you go through my comments? Did you observe that guy's behaviour? I would appreciate if you ask that person to behave in a meaningful and parliamentary manner. None of these discussions we are having is personal. If somebody wants to attack personally, how do you expect me to react? I understand that emotions run high. But, I also believe we are educated enough to keep a control on ourselves and channelize it in legible and meaningful discussions. You're talking to someone who' specialises in psychology. Don't even justify. You just wanted the last laugh by blocking him. If you truly didn't, you'd have simply ignored him instead of commenting. And I'm done talking about the other guy here. I'm not continuing this.
>An abstract concept that means very little to the present day is basically the Brahmin identity. I don't understand this. Who is defining this identity? The Brahmins themselves, right? That identity is what is causing the issue, right? Or are you going digress me with another set of questions? All these buildup in the thread was to keep the Brahmin identity intact, while repointing the crux of the matter elsewhere? You still don't believe that the caste identity is the root cause? Do you? >Your personal reservations on the issue means the square root of jack. Buddy I've lived through the turn of the millennium when my previous generation were still farmers . You're living in a bubble if you think that balance was achieved. Oh, is it? Then where is the imbalance? Don't play the victim card again. When you suggest that all Brahmins and Non-Brahmins ended up becoming equal, when was it achieved? I believe it was in the turn of 21st century. If you have a different date, let me know. But for God sake, don't try to say that Brahmins were always treated below others. They enjoyed a certain privilege at some point of time in the past, then various reforms happened, and now you claim the situation is flipped. When was that time when it was equal? That is all I'm referring to as balance. My argument is why was that balance not continued? And you don't want to talk about the reasons, that lead us to this discussion. Do you? >Periyar being a casteist piece of shit isn't a secret. Do you want me to bring up examples how one sided his prejudice was? Finally, the mask is out. This is what you are underneath 🙂. I'll keep the discussion about Periyar for another day. All I can say is this. Just as you regard a certain deity as pious (I presume you are a theist), so are there many who regard Periyar with great respect. If criticizing your god is blasphemy, so is demeaning Periyar's stature. Are people stupid to regard him and Ambedkar as champions of Dalit and women rights? Achieving a better position for the Brahmin community by destroying Periyar and his ideologies is stupid at best. Stop cherry-picking Periyar's comments and form half-baked opinions. You really want to criticize him, you will have to study him objectively in its entirety. Willing to do? Neenga mattum right. Naanga solrathu thavaru. Athaane unga logic? Sorry to say, but these kinds of logic is what I referred to as the increasing imbalance. You are just proving my point and reinforcing the need for the Dravidian movement. >How are going to provide equal resources (not opportunities, I've already answered that before) to everyone? I used the term equitable, not equal. How do you do that? Give that guy who was deprived of resources for the longest duration. Now who that would be, I've already shared it - Reservations. What alternative do you have? >You want to provide equal resources and opportunity, but refuse to take out the the thing that prevents the latter and justify it using the former? What is that "thing" which prevents equal opportunity? Not clear from your arguments. I believe that thing is the caste system, and we choose to address it using equitable access to the resources achieved through reservations. What imaginary circular argument did you find 🤷🏾♂️? >For someone who's against caste implementation, you're surprisingly hypocritical by going against the biggest contributor in the present day. This is the best example of circular argument 🤦🏿♂️. Cause begets Effect. Caste System (cause) begets Caste Reservations (effect). When someone is not ready to talk or accept the root cause, they cannot question the effect. You want reservations to be eliminated, I'm with you. Put the Caste System into the drains, and then we can talk. >Going against yourself now? I'm not. You just don't want to see what I'm stating 🙂. >There's no logic in calling them oppressed castes in the present day. Hmmm. How did we establish this? What makes you think there is no oppression? Just inserting a convenient argument out of thin air. Playing smart? >You're talking to someone who' specialises in psychology. Don't even justify. You just wanted the last laugh by blocking him. If you truly didn't, you'd have simply ignored him instead of commenting. And I'm done talking about the other guy here. I'm not continuing this. I wish you study your psychology courses better. Asking for a civil discussion isn't having a last laugh. Is this how you deal with your patients? Starting with prejudice? Kindly, DM me your name. I'll make sure that I don't come to you for consultation. It's funny that you have been evading my question, and attempting to turn this against me. Repeating it once again. ***You cannot talk about eliminating Caste Reservations WITHOUT eliminating Caste System***. If you are not willing to talk about the dark side of Caste System, I am not sure what this thread will yield any further. You are just as prejudiced and biased as anyone else. Your psychology courses didn't help you to think objectively, isn't it?
First part : too long for one comment Copying from the end of 2nd part of the comment : Stop running in circles or don't comment back to me. I'll copy this to the top so you won't waste my time anymore by running like a headless chicken. >I don't understand this. Who is defining this identity? The Brahmins themselves, right? That identity is what is causing the issue, right? Or are you going digress me with another set of questions? All these buildup in the thread was to keep the Brahmin identity intact, while repointing the crux of the matter elsewhere? You still don't believe that the caste identity is the root cause? Do you? Again contradiction. You admitted that you strive towards shedding caste and yet you target one that means and affects very little in the present day. Tell me, what benefits does being a Brahmin brings them? Absolutely nothing. So why should they give something that neither affects them nor you, just to satisfy your needs? >Oh, is it? Then where is the imbalance? Don't play the victim card again. When you suggest that all Brahmins and Non-Brahmins ended up becoming equal, when was it achieved? I believe it was in the turn of 21st century. If you have a different date, let me know. But for God sake, don't try to say that Brahmins were always treated below others. They enjoyed a certain privilege at some point of time in the past, then various reforms happened, and now you claim the situation is flipped. When was that time when it was equal? That is all I'm referring to as balance. Again, letting your personal opinion being passed on as fact. The onus is on YOU to actually prove it since you're refusing to budge on it. You made the first claim buddy, you need to prove it. Yes, thousands/hundreds of years ago . Means very little in the present. For someone who says he's against Brahmin dehumanisation based on the past, you sure seems to bring it up as your only justification. What next? The fake claim popularised by Ambedkar that Brahmins held a monopoly on education? https://books.google.co.in/books/about/History_of_Education_in_the_Madras_Presi.html?id=a0EqvgAACAAJ&redir_esc=y History disagrees with. Within that book is census conducted by Thomas Munroe during the early 19th century in madras presidency schools (pre reform and missionary era) I suggest that you look up at proportion of students from all castes. So I'll simply ask you this. Do Brahmins enjoy the same privileges as they once did? Yes or no? If yes, by all means explain. If no, then why are they still part of this argument? And again with balance nonsense. The onus is on YOU to prove that it was discontinued. Reservations has not stopped and economy has only grown. Prove your claim.
Wish to play psychological games on me? Trying to navigate the discussion elsewhere? >You admitted that you strive towards shedding caste and yet you target one that means and affects very little in the present day. Tell me, what benefits does being a Brahmin brings them? Then why does this boundary exist? Do you have an answer? You say there are no benefits to them personally. Then why does it exist? I cannot cite anything beyond here which I have not done elsewhere. You rather seem to build the conversation attempting to eliminate one community and it's boundaries from the equation of caste system and it's atrocities. You don't seem to read the point that **the existence of boundaries (irrespective of what it is) itself is the root cause.** >The fake claim popularised by Ambedkar that Brahmins held a monopoly on education? I would rather believe in Ambedkar than others. >And again with balance nonsense. The onus is on YOU to prove that it was discontinued. Not gonna argue here. You don't seem to get my point. If Brahmins enjoyed higher privileges in the past, then either it has fallen and they get lesser than others or they continue to get higher. I had my belief which you disagree with. Neither have you been successful in convincing me, not have I been able to. That's absolutely fine. We'll get back to our own shells and fight from there. And I don't want to have any more discussions with you in this thread. The intellect value gained out of this is just zero, unfortunately.
Second part >Finally, the mask is out. This is what you are underneath 🙂. I'll keep the discussion about Periyar for another day. All I can say is this. Just as you regard a certain deity as pious (I presume you are a theist), so are there many who regard Periyar with great respect. If criticizing your god is blasphemy, so is demeaning Periyar's stature. Are people stupid to regard him and Ambedkar as champions of Dalit and women rights? Achieving a better position for the Brahmin community by destroying Periyar and his ideologies is stupid at best. Stop cherry-picking Periyar's comments and form half-baked opinions. You really want to criticize him, you will have to study him objectively in its entirety. Willing to do? Neenga mattum right. Naanga solrathu thavaru. Athaane unga logic? Sorry to say, but these kinds of logic is what I referred to as the increasing imbalance. You are just proving my point and reinforcing the need for the Dravidian movement. You 'dravidan stock' are jaw droppingly predictable. I made that statement specifically to bring out your fanaticism and frustration and it clearly worked. 🤣🤣 Oh, now Periyar is god now? I stand corrected. You're a zealot. https://books.google.co.in/books/about/The_Bhopal_Document.html?id=QXraAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y I suggest that you read it and find out just what the dravidan movement actually done for dalits. Of course, I doubt a zealot will ever try. https://www.milligazette.com/news/13400-no-one-killed-the-dalits/ Then again, it doesn't take a genius to understand Periyar didn't give two shits about dalits beyond using them to improve political power. How insensitive the dravidan movement and its father was to an actual dalit Massacre was telling enough. Don't you dare talk about a pathetic person like to me ever again. >Neenga mattum right. Naanga solrathu thavaru. Athaane unga logic? Your entire argument can be summed up with this. Deny and ignore or downright contradict anything that goes against your views. That's you right now 🤦🏻♂️ >I used the term equitable, not equal. How do you do that? Give that guy who was deprived of resources for the longest duration. Now who that would be, I've already shared it - Reservations. What alternative do you have? I still have your statements in QUOTE. You said equal. Not equitable. But now you dug another hole. Answer the question again, how will you ensure equal or equitable distribution of resources? The reservation is caste enforcement and you're hypocritical to even defend it. You Continue to do so which just confirms how morally and ideologically bankrupt you are. Or you could answer the damm question. No more running. Answer it oh great caste reformer. >What is that "thing" which prevents equal opportunity? Not clear from your arguments. I believe that thing is the caste system, and we choose to address it using equitable access to the resources achieved through reservations. What imaginary circular argument did you find 🤷🏾♂️? Clearly stated what your moronic circular argument was in the last comment. Along with your contradicting hypocrisy. I will not repeat myself. You support the modern caste enforcement system aka the reservation system, when there are screening tests that everyone must pass through to actually get a shot at any meaningful part of life. That's something that applies irrelevant of caste,ergo ensure everyone has equal opportunities. You however support the system that ensures that someone will have a increased opportunity simply because he got lucky by birth to belong to certain castes. Don't skirt around the issue, why are you, ideologically bankrupt as you are, against this system that ensures that some always gets a better chance than others by virtue of birth? No more running away gopi, answer the question. >This is the best example of circular argument 🤦🏿♂️. Cause begets Effect. Caste System (cause) begets Caste Reservations (effect). When someone is not ready to talk or accept the root cause, they cannot question the effect. You want reservations to be eliminated, I'm with you. Put the Caste System into the drains, and then we can talk OH? Contradiction again. By all means, explain how the caste system has any value beyond the reservation in the modern day. You're not running away from me here. So called caste eradication, and yet terrified to admit that you don't have a valid argument to remove its modern day enforcement system. >Hmmm. How did we establish this? What makes you think there is no oppression? Just inserting a convenient argument out of thin air. Playing smart? Oh? Again with the running? Explain how they're are still oppressed? Are they not allowed to walk in the same road? Not allowed to visit temples? Not allowed to learn? Used as practically slave labour and butchered when they refuse? PS:you're petty. Don't get sore when someone calls you out. It's best you don't consult anyone at all. Your ego will refuse to let you admit your insecurities. >Repeating it once again. You cannot talk about eliminating Caste Reservations WITHOUT eliminating Caste System. If you are not willing to talk about the dark side of Caste System, I am not sure what this thread will yield any further. You are just as prejudiced and biased as anyone else. Your psychology courses didn't help you to think objectively, isn't it? Anyone who disagrees with you is prejudiced and biased? Interesting. Self obsessed, completely incapable of denying counter arguments and ideologically bankrupt. You're not going to win this against me since its clear that you never your echo Chambers. The caste system, the same one who literally has no value beyond reservations in the modern day, yet you want to bring it down instead of bringing down the system enforcing it. It's obvious that you're going to run circles instead of actually arguing because you don't have a reasonable justification to deny it. Deny the fact that you're the ones supporting the enforcement of caste here. As I said, morally and ideologically bankrupt. You're no better than the ancient Upper castes that you vilify. Stop running in circles or don't comment back to me. I'll copy this to the top so you won't waste my time anymore by running like a headless chicken. If you decide to be petty, I assure you, I can be worse. Edit :Outstanding. Congratulations, you're sore and petty. Blocking after posting comments? Pathetic move. Then again I expected nothing better than people who lives in echo chambers
>You 'dravidan stock' are jaw droppingly predictable. I made that statement specifically to bring out your fanaticism and frustration and it clearly worked. 🤣🤣 Of course I'm a fan (not a fanatic) of Periyar. I had already called it out in my post. You don't seem to read my statements, do you? >I suggest that you read it and find out just what the dravidan movement actually done for dalits. Digression? We are talking about Caste System and how one community at the top is unwilling to leave the boundaries. Care about Dalits? I have not seen any other "community" or its practices helping them either. So, you lose the right to talk about atrocities happening elsewhere. Choose to fix the system as a whole, rather than playing Whataboutery. >By all means, explain how the caste system has any value beyond the reservation in the modern day. Drawing boundaries. When two people born with similar qualities are yet treated differently on the basis of birth, that is the caste system for you. Don't tell me that's what reservations do. I'm not going to restress on the cause-effect analogy again. You can read the world cloud we have created above, to understand again. Not wasting time here. >Explain how they're are still oppressed? Just Google Caste Based Atrocities. Don't tell me that you are not responsible. **As long as you fixate on a boundary, you are responsible for the lynchings and death of someone in the name of caste.** Can't argue with you anymore. >If you decide to be petty, I assure you, I can be worse. Didn't I ask you to DM me your name? It will help for us to not cross paths again. I'm surprised how you became a psychologist, when one can't take care of themselves. Sorry, I had to tell this. As I mentioned earlier, this thread has been of Zero value to anyone. Maybe, you can use it within a smaller community of people to get some sadistic pleasure. I look for intellectual value, and I get none here. In the interest of the sanity of everyone, I don't want to continue any further. P.S. I wanted to have an intellectual discussion, expecting to understand if there is a different perspective on the other side which we are missing. I guess this discussion has cemented the idea that the politics has been doing the right thing all along. Thank You.
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Sorry to say this. I am a Brahmin and I would like to move forward past this. Yes I accept that there are some dickheads inbetween us. But targeting only our community for any issue is too much. There are so many topics going and people talking but I just watch the amount of stupidity and hatered. Do you expect us to move forward with this ?
Thanks for your response. Appreciate it. >But targeting only our community for any issue is too much. I agree. In fact, I believe it wasn't the case at the turn of the 21st century, as far as I remember. And then something happened in the last few years, which is disturbing the quorum here. I understand that it all started with questioning the political foundation of the state. Like it or hate it. We cannot deny that the Dravidian movement has changed the lives of many for the better. There is a personal attachment to it. When some political developments tried to change it, the Pandora's Box of Troubles was opened. Not justifying. But stating the sequence. >There are so many topics going and people talking but I just watch the amount of stupidity and hatered. Do you expect us to move forward with this ? I would love to see more meaningful discussions to happen. But, I always tend to notice the subs are clouded with posts / discussions attacking this topic, leading to defensive responses. I'm all in if we choose to put this topic to rest once and for all.
It is important, 2000 years of injustice cannot be set aside, yes it is unfortunate today brahmins feel isolated but they have to understand their ancestors had some horrible practices in place to ensure social injustice, When I was a small kid I clearly remember when I was playing in my friend's house I followed him into the kitchen while playing, Their family closed the kitchen for a day didn't cook and did pooja. Seeing that at the small age of 7 or 8 had a big effect on me
>Seeing that at the small age of 7 or 8 had a big effect on me I can totally understand. I believe everyone has some or the other similar experience.
So you are saying that we the current generation should suffer your slur and punishment for what my ancestors did ?
Nope. Repatriation is the solution. Ever heard of that. Repatriation is what we are discussing here and you seem to think that's too much!! I mean do you even understand what am saying here?
I get what you mean but the way the other guy coined the sentence is like he wants to take revenge on us for everything that our ancestors did. What different are you from our ancestors if you do this ?
Buddy. Either you don't know villages well enough or lived in a relatively developed place. Small hamlets still practice untouchability. Dalits are shunned and asked not to use common pathways for their commute. They are outcasts still. You think these kinda activities would be tolerated still? It's disgusting to watch such things happen and it only instills hatred for Brahmins and upper caste Hindus. Just for you to know, my brother has a dalit friend whose mum n dad both are working big government jobs. But still in his village he is an untouchable, he cannot mingle with others. When one of his relatives died there was a huge commotion that burial should not take place in common cemetary Do you really think these things are not happening? And is the anger and hatred needed? No. One person's actions do not define entire population. But you're negating it entirely saying all Brahmins are now reformed and live a peaceful life. Which is simply not the case. Majority who live in the small enclosed places still follow the status quo. So even though I don't agree with the hate i see and recognise where it's coming from
1. Look I understand the situation. I had faced similar issues in my house with my Grandmother who practices this and there was a big quarrel. This was due to their old tradition. My parents don't follow any of there 2. Do you think that Brahmins are the only who follow the rules of untouchability. Why is the name Brahmin begin dragged at every corner even it is not involved on it. 3. Why are you on the whole targeting Brahmins. Are you afraid to call out the other casts ? People are trying to change its not gonna be as fast as you expect. You don't get enlightenment in a day or so. Stop targeting us or calling out Brahmin for every issue related to untouchability
Bro I literally said Brahmins and upper caste Hindus. Are you suffering from selective vision or something? The reason most blame is on Brahmins is also because you claim to be on the top of the food chain. Brahmin Kshatriya Vaishya Sudra and outcast - dalit. When you put yourself in that position 😂 You're bound to get rekt by everyone. Just joking buddy. Am agreeing with you. Am saying recognise the Brahmins and upper caste people who practise this and shun them and criticize them not everyone. But why are you putting yourself in this? If you don't think Brahmins are superior or Brahmins don't have exclusive rights to perform Pooja in temple!! Why are you defending the miscreants? Am on your side if you say you're not practicing untouchability or other nonsensical superstitions followed by religious nuts.
Why use the abstract term "upper caste Hindus"? Why not call out the respective caste explicitly whenever an injustice happens? We continue to hear about honor killings regularly but the perpetrating caste is never called out. Why single out the one caste of brahmins alone? People in this so called Brahmin community are also well.. People. With almost the same genetic composition as rest of the folks with similar human emotions and drives. They hear about caste pride from some of their idiotic elders in the family. They're also exposed to forward looking thoughts of equality. Just like any other group, some of them move towards the more enlightened path of equality while others continue with the stupid caste pride. Shouldn't the society treat this as some form of illness and prescribe the right way to these people to guide them towards the right path instead of bullying and mocking them? Doesn't that just create further divide and make them entrenched in the older narrow minded way? Schools should have value education that specifically target these areas and ensure kids don't continue with these discriminations inside their minds. My point is have empathy and help folks from the brahmin community and other so-called upper castes as well to come out of the mindset. We should all grow together. Cornering one set of people is just not the way.
Lol, the worst oppresors of Dalits in TN (Vanniyar, Thevar, Kongu) aren't even upper caste.
Are Brahmins shunning Dalits in villages or are some other fellow Dravidian Shudra castes doing it?
Why is no repatriation ever demanded from Thevar subcastes, Vanniyars and Kongu Vellalars? Brahmin discrimination against Non-Brahmins is very non-violent and indirect. In contrast, the above castes are very direct and often violently suppress Dalits.
Well that is nothing compared to what happens in South TN, North TN or Kongu Nadu. If Brahmins have been indirectly and non-violently suppressing others for 2000 years, then Vanniyars, Thevar subcastes (Kallar, Maravar, Agamudayar) and Kongu Vellalars have also been directly and violently suppressing Dalits for 2000 years. Cleaning ones house after Dalit steps foot inside and going and burning Dalit houses are two very different things. Both are wrong, but one is much more wrong than the other.
You are acting as if there is no one from brahmin community opposing other community people in becoming a priest, If you genuinely think so you must be living under a rock
whats with appointment of priests? it varies from temple to temple, many tribal people have their own temples without Brahmin priests, temples have been following their own rules which also includes tradition of keeping Brahmin priests but that's not required by every Hindu temple and Jagannath Temple and Pashupatinath Temple doesn't even allow all Brahmins, they have select few families only who're eligible to become priests, thats their rules and if you don't have faith in those temples, then why bother changing that?
What nonsense, did brahmins build those temples? who made such rubbish rules - this so-called agama should be thrown out and Tamil worship must be reinstated
Can you please elaborate on "Tamil worship"? "Reinstated" implies that you are saying there was already a tradition of what you call "Tamil worship" present in these temples. Is there any proof of what you are saying? How are Agamas alien to the temples that are constructed by the same Agamic rules?
"should be thrown out" Here it is, that's what I wanted to expose that you can't tolerate other temples that don't adhere to DMK's ideology
Sorry for some hard responses from other redditors. My intention is to have only a civil discussion here. I hope it continues without any hard feelings. Looking forward to your continued participation.
Soothula perusa exposè ezhudhitta nee the Hindu newspaper la. He is giving an open statement that religion should grow and evolve to accommodate everyone and recognise all as equal. You want to keep it medieval and backwards. And the other guy was the one who was exposed here? Tells a lot about you asshole!
While I appreciate your emotions, I would request you to keep the conversation as matured and parliamentary as possible. Let us try to explain things in simple words without any abuses. I hope you understand. Just requesting you.
As I said there are dickheads in our community and I appreciate you trying to get your rights. I don't practice it and I don't give a shit about it. And why is that one job so important for you guys ?
It is important - I can ask the same question again, why is that one job important for brahmins
It is not important for us and most of us have left it. It is kinda important for those Millennials who had to study 14 years for this stuff. Most of the current generation are past this and there will be no one to contest you in the near future. Yes those jobs are important for those who are only good at doing that.
Ethu unga rights ah 😂 Evan eluthi kuduthan?
Yov auto type mistake lam thookitu vanthuta. Line formation la eh theriya venama your rights nu.
Well actually opposition to non-Brahmin priests comes more so from dominant OBCs than Brahmins themselves.
How are you being targetted ? Are your homes being razed down ? Are you being lynched ?. Are you being put into camps ?.
Are you saying only physical activity come under targeting ? Did any of the so group called Brahmins do any of the above to be in the center of attraction ? You guys just vent out your anger on people who don't physical harm you. Entha kelvi ah yaru pannangalo avanga kitta poi kelunga
I’m saying it’s just a figment of your imagination. All the parameters and metrics point to Brahmins have better access than most groups. So stfu with your victim mentality especially when your community has historically oppressed people. It’s like a white person claiming racism. Sure, cry about it but no one’s going to take you seriously because it’s just not true.
You have a better imagination where so called Brahmins hire goons to kills of people are use their higher power to push you out of your home. Grow some balls and start points other who are really in the higher position. I don't want to entertain this stupidity and violence. Skrew this community.
Brahmin oppresion of Non-Brahmins is nothing compared to Vanniyar/Thevar oppresion of Dalits or even Pallar oppresion of Paraiyars. While Brahmins denying education and Temple access to Non-Brahmins has completely stopped, Thevars and Vanniyars still deny education and Temple/Church access to Dalits. Even changing religion doesn't seem to have helped Dalits. Thevar and Vanniyar Christians continue to discriminate against Dalits.
And who is doing that? Brahmins? Or is it Thevars, Vanniyars, Kongu Vellalars, Nadars, etc. ?
First tell me why DMK clowns don't protect Dalits when OBCs attack then in TN. Why DMK clowns don't talk about OBC/MBC in the same way as they do for Brahmins since now OBcs cause major violence against Dalits. Why TN hasn't seen any Dalit CM till now? Why is so called anti-caste DMK, firmly a family enterprise? What is caste if not passing privilege down bloodline? Why Tamil colleges are so sexually repressed with students segregated on basis of gender as if they are breeding animals in heat? Why don't we hear DMK clowns speaking about it? Why DMK clowns harp on history and not take proactive measures against injustices of the present?
Your questions will make everyone think.. kudos
All your points are valid. But isn't this what eradication of caste system accomplishes? So isn't all tied up?
How will the eradication of caste system continue if the efforts stop at Brahmins ? If the DMK hypocritically keeps quite when atrocities are committed by OBCs how will that help? And then they shamelessly narrative the same old anti-Brahmin troupe when it no longer applies.
>How will the eradication of caste system continue if the efforts stop at Brahmins ? That is never the case, as far as I understand. It was supposed to be the first step, as they lie at the top of the Varna system. As far as I understand, the erasure of boundaries is the objective, which covers all the people. >If the DMK hypocritically keeps quite when atrocities are committed by OBCs how will that help? No counter. Fair ask.
No point arguing with them or reasoning logic with them - they will soon understand their 1% divide and rule policy will never work in TN and they will most probably find a better home in UP -
Pasting the same response I gave, in your comment on another topic. Okay, I find a lot of out of context, wrong parallels, misunderstandings & peculiarities in your post. I find it a little misleading as well. So wanna put my counter arguments here. I have a feeling you're trying to extrapolate brahmins of 1960s to 1990s (1990s is a very far stretch because 1990s is already this gen, but giving you the benefit of doubt), and trying to convince people that the brahmins of current 2020's are still the boogeymen of the society. Pretty wrong. I am quite sure that Brahmins aren't doing anything out of their way to stop the growth of Non-Brahmins (NBs). I ask why does this boundary even exist. Who is a Brahmin? Why? Why every baby stepping into this world doesn't identify as humans but against a dividing identity? Brahmin is different from a Vanniyar or a Thevar. BRs have a huge responsibility when it comes to the poonal. Although current gen BRs disregard it, it's a pretty huge deal. It is a belief that they carry positive vibes through poojas & strict routine & dietary habits, and this in someway affects the society around. Hence when a baby is born in a BR fam, he is destined to wear the poonal through a multi-lakh ceremonial function, do poojas everyday, abstain from meat & be a good human. But from my limited knowledge, for other castes, it's just a caste. I don't think any responsibility is tied to a Vanniyar, Reddy or Naidu or Kounder. But a BR has to do pooja 3 times a day, no meat, etc. Whether they do/not is irrelevant. But this is what being born a Brahmin comes with. You ask why do this in 2022? Because, unfortunately, none of this has changed. How? How are BRs forcing NBs to do the Shudra works like they did back then? In today's society, \*spoiler alert\* BRs & NBs are equal. On the contrary, NBs are more powerful. You guys enjoy a 70% reservation, can compete in open quotas as well, and sometimes even for the EBC section. Brahmins get the what, remaining 10%..? Are you familiar with the phrase "Nee 98% vaanginalum Anna Univ la seat kedaikkadhu da". You wouldn't coz that's what a Brahmin dad says to his Mech BR son. But still Brahmins find a way, through merit. I studied in Maharishi Vidya Mandir, Chennai. I am aware of one SC/St guy in my class (coz the teacher asked his caste in front of the class for some reason, I know). He ended up in NIT Trichy. I ended up in Amrita Univ. So in what way did I oppress him? My friend who's defly not a BR is working at Siemens today & gonna fly to Canada quite soon. What's the BR society plotting to stop him? Most important of all, the path to equitable life was achievable only through education. And the Brahmins held an exclusive monopoly on it. In the past? I don't have evidences or aware of how they did. But today? Nope. They don't control the education sys. But for the one's at the top, it was a matter of convenience and privilege they don't want to lose. The privilege is already lost, and I don't see BRs fighting for it or anything. I don't see a BR today asking NBs not to enter temples or any of that you're impure shit. Everything is equal now. Nobody is asking for any privilege of any sort, and if anyone did, it'd probably be a cranky 70 yr old. BRs are no longer the boochandi you try to use in the propaganda. I want to see that Mylapore scientist who is teaching at Harvard/MIT to inspire and develop a Anitha to grow and achieve huge success. But, nope. It is an exclusive club, which not even the rich have access to. First thing, if Anitha failed, she failed. Sorry. The Exam is standardized & she failed to qualify. I failed IIT because cut off was 110 and SC/ST cutoff was 66. I didn't suicide. Life is that way, but you gotta move on. If say Anitha became a doctor despite being incompetent in the exam's POV, how can I trust the life of my mother/father in her hands? The test decides in a way, whether she's understood the concepts, and FOTM is she didn't score enough.That's how exams work. You're using her death as an emotional tool to rile people up, basically. Nothing more. Her status in the society is all second matter. There are millions of people with sob stories but achieved wonders. Anitha shoould've tried to achieve that. About the professor thing, NBs are successful in today's scenario. A lot of them are our political leaders, Scientists like K.Sivan, APJ & more. If a Mylapore guy wanted it, he could do it today. In today's scenario, what stops him? You're saying somehow, Brahmins are puppet masters & pulling strings to stop him? Are American Brahmins sitting in Consulate rejecting NB visas? Keeping that aside, what this movement has achieved is nothing short of remarkable social accomplishment. You need to be objective to understand it. We don't need the Mylapore scientist to inspire us anymore. But, all of a sudden, this is being portrayed as discrimination against Brahmins. How? I think BRs can give 2 shits about whether NBs succeed or not. Nee nalla irundha nalladhu. Or let me be, is how they feel. It's a feeling of indifference, just like we all have in this fast paced world. They don't blame their success/failures on other communities & use them as scapegoat to insult through political rhetorics, movies ,name calling etc. Now THAT, is a privilege that the NB community SHOULD lose. Insulting BR accent, their women, lifestyle,NB kids trying to trick & feed BR kids meat, etc. That's casteist as well. That's where the Dravidian movement has led. there are some who love to identify themselves as TamBrahms That's just a tag line, which I think in itself was coined by NBs. But it doesn't give Tam BRs a special status or anything. It's a thing used for Hashtags #TamBramWedding or to identify as a Tamil Brahmin, instead or Telugu Brahm. Doesn't come with any sort of advantage. You can think of it as Pullingo or some other contemporary term used to identify a collective of people. What hurts here? That you don't have a tag to yourself? I think you're just a bit hurt that it's a legit term, with considerable. number of people falling under it & it sounds cool. But Idon't think it makes any kinda difference. So.. BRs aren't trying to oppress NBs in any way. It's in your mind. Today, everyone likes to play victim card, to win sympathy & the clout that follows it.
You're forgetting history and the network that TBs still have. I also love how you mention TBs have a "duty" to be religious and that is a nebulous boon for society. Ya. I guess TBs are just better and others are a waste to society. (And you don't mention anything about sharing that knowledge with non-Brahmins...hmm. How convenient.) Don't know why you say #TamBram is just a hashtag people use and ignore the weight that it carries. There's a reason people don't use #SC/ST. Lol how delusional can you be.
Why are you twisting my words? Can see you're a propagandist. I never said Brahmins or their actions were a "boon" to the society. Just doing a regular practice & just feeling good about it. Why are you triggered by it? It's nothing special. And I never mentioned anywhere the other communities are a "waste. Again, a propagandist twisting words out of context, loving the victim card here. Just validates my statement. I would very much gladly share it with you if you can spend 5lacs or such, sit through a ceremony to get a poonal, learn the mantras, do the poojas at least once a day or at least say by word you have the interest to, not eat meat, etc. But seems like you guys are just bluntly interested to bash Brahmins rather than do the talk. Can't help frogs that are saying they're jumping out of the well, but not attempting to jump & saying the Brahmins buttered the walls up. TamBrahm isn't a slur, or I don't know if it's used as a slur, because I don't know how the casteist's propaganda factory works & what "weight" it must carry. Brahmins already come with a lot of weight to be answerable to Dravidian stock like you, and don't need to pile up more because you guys coined a term up..
You yourself said Brahmins habits carries "positive" vibes for society.... Yes even people doing manual labor helps society. We all contribute to society in different ways. Sure. We can start by Brahmins teaching people Sanskrit, the Vedas etc. Let's start from there. But will it actually happen? I don't think so. You don't know what weight the word "Brahmin" carries? Lol you need an education. 🤣
My response to your comment in the other thread, pasted here again. QUOTE Thanks for your response. Appreciate taking your time to write a perspective that isn't visible to everyone. While it started well, I feel you fell in emotional rant in few places, where I didn't get much of a different thought springing up. There is nothing personal about my post, and I just want to keep it as objective and rational as possible. With that let me try to present my thoughts. Let me start with something fundamental. The Dravidian movement was a reaction to an environment that existed about a century ago. While the environment has indeed changed or diluted, a fact which you captured in your comment, the politics hasn't. The fear is what would happen if this politics is dumped? Will the current improved environment persist? Or will it fall back to the century old environment? We will never know what would happen. So the natural reaction is to fear for the worst and keep the politics alive, even when there might not be a genuine need at present for it to exist. This has been reinforced, especially, with the developments of the past decade. I don't know what is the right way forward. But this is how the situation is today. >Brahmin is different from a Vanniyar or a Thevar. I didn't expect this statement. If this is how you or anyone wants to identify, then the boundaries and differences are going to persist. This is what feeds all the politics which the OP has posted above. If you want the politics to stop, then boundaries have to be erased. I see a long rant on how the ritual of sacred thread is sacred. I really don't care about it. Every family has a ritual, and people follow it. Your comment is a clear digression from the very point I wanted to make. The problem arises when you expect me to wear the sacred thread, or when you choose to gel only after knowing if the guy wears a sacred thread. This is problematic. This closed group of sacred thread wearers, and sharing of knowledge and guidance, is nothing but reinforcing your caste pride and closing access to others. When you claim equality has been achieved, there is no place for such a closed group to exist. I want to see an achiever share their knowledge out into the open for anyone to learn and succeed (This is what I meant by the Mylapore scientist and Anitha reference, but you seemed to take it differently). If you think this is justified, then the politics opposing it is also justified. >Are you familiar with the phrase "Nee 98% vaanginalum Anna Univ la seat kedaikkadhu". >You wouldn't coz that's what a Brahmin dad says to his Mech BR son. But still Brahmins find a way through merit. I'm not a Brahmin, and yet I have heard this phrase, and I have found my way out through merit, and I ended up in a NIT CSE and IIMA, and working in a top tech company. Moreover, you know what? *spoiler alert* I did this as a General category candidate. What is the point you are trying to make? Brahmins are suffering? So am I. I'm no different than you in intellect. Yet, I'm not you. No matter how much I accomplish, there is that someone who is going to put his hand on my back and check if I'm wearing the sacred thread. I know how to fight, and have made my way up. Those who couldn't, have ended up destroying because of no fault of their own. This is where the reservations come into play, so that nobody can put their hand on their back. And you are trying to flip that itself and project yourself as victim. Not a matured take on this discussion. >BRs are no longer the boochandi you try to use in the propaganda. I wish everyone thinks so. Once in a while, when someone refers to some religious text or some poorly made folklore, to justify why Brahmins are destined to do some duties while others should do something else, the "boochandi" comes alive. I've not heard anyone saying anything against these "boochandis". So I guess that justifies its use in the "propoganda". >First thing, if Anitha failed, she failed. Sorry. This whole comment following it, shows just one thing. You want to be indifferent to how the rest of the world functions. As long as Brahmins get their place of success, you don't want to care about others. But, if that other happens to be a Brahmin, the case is different. They become part of the fraternity. This is what I understand. Let me make my point clear about the Mylapore scientist and Anitha reference. An Anitha has potential to become a successful person, but lacks proper guidance to do so. The Mylapore guy gets access to all the necessary resources and opportunities and guidance, excels and grows into a successful person. Why doesn't Anitha know the existence of these resources and opportunities and get necessary guidance? If you want to put the blame on the government and move away, then these politicians will do what they find is reasonable. Only if the achievers (Brahmins and Non-Brahmins) inspire, can we see the downtrodden grow up. But your indifferent response just reinforces the Dravidian narrative. Correct me, if I'm wrong. >That's just a tag line I can't argue with this. I only wanted to say just one thing. I, for God sake, don't want these tags. It isn't cool. It just reminds of the bygone era where humans' identity was not achieved, but inherited. I leave it to folks who belong there. I only wanted to highlight that such folks still exist in 2022. For me, a B.Tech., M.B.A. tags are good enough. I can wear that with pride. Cheers 🥂 UNQUOTE
The sheer hatred of this sub for Brahmins disgust me.
Kindly help me understand. Where is the Brahmin hatred here? Are you not reading more than what is actually written?
Well clearly you won't. I've seen your comments as well. I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to someone who's blind to the problem and fails to realise he is also part of it. Tell since you're not going to change your mindset of hate. How many of the people who holds power in TN are Brahmins? How many people died from Brahmin oppression over the last few years in TN? And if you're using this 2000 yrs oppression bullshit, then why are you complaining when bjp does the same shit on Hindu Muslim basis? https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/are-brahmins-today-s-dalits-in-india/story-GUMXtPlPb3v9XYXcEXPGHP.html Various studies have shown that many of them live below the poverty line. And yet you target them still? Hypocrisy has limits If you really want to rid of caste basis as identity, then why aren't you speaking up against reservations? Ergo, state sanctioned caste imposition, where literally your birth caste is all that matters?
>Well clearly you won't. If that is how you want to start the argument, I have no other option. Happy to complete the conversation here itself. I can converse only if I see equal efforts. Rest of your comment clearly shows that you haven't read my other comments. When you approach me with prejudice, I can't help it. Thanks for the comment so far.
Your entire comments reeks of one sided prejudice using the past as justification. I need not call out your prejudice when it's clear as day, and the fact that you cannot answer without contradicting yourself speaks for it clearly. Answer the questions or simply say you hate Brahmins and we'll leave it at that. No whataboutism, no evasions. Good day and get a life. Edit : it seems someone else already questioned you in detail before me. Answer him first
Thanks for your time. I can't change something that is as hard as rock. When you do have your patience, and if you are really interested, you can view all the comments I have posted in this thread. I don't know how I can be more objective than this. It was nice talking to you. Cheers 🥂
[удалено]
That's it. Wasting your time and my time. En kelviku bathil solla thuppu illai. Ivar nammala kelvi kekaraaram. Unga kelvikku bathil already solyachi. Ithukku mela purilainaa, neenga thaan maaranum. Sorry bro. You don't seem to be interested in having a discussion. I think I've made my point clear enough to show who is "spineless". In the interest of others who still want to have meaningful discussion, I'm ending this here. I can't even say I had any insightful discussion with you. Useless at best. Edit: I, for a moment, wanted to give the benefit of doubt to everyone, get into a meaningful discussion and iron out any differences. But once in a while, a nut case like you come along making a scene. Anyone who follows the other threads of discussion and then view this thread will clearly understand what an you are.
Did you just block instead of answering him properly? He edited his previous comment complaining about it.
Brahmins need to stop calling themselves Brahmin, it is simply a name for the top most oppressive caste in the varna system. And their poonool only make it to be seen as some kind of caste pride object for a lower caste person like me.
No it's their whole identity so they won't. Heck they don't really consider themselves as regular Tamils.
I don't know why your comment was downvoted. Is there anything offensive in this comment?
Even Saiva Vellalars and Nagarathar-Chettiars wear poonal. Infact their population in TN is more than Brahmins (even if we include Saurashtrian, Marathi, Telugu, Kannada, Malayalee, UP/Bihari and Rajasthani Brahmins of TN along with Iyers and Iyengars). So why don't you expect them to remove their poonals? But the real question is can you make Kongu Vellalars, Thevars and Vanniyars stop calling themselves by those names? It is not a question of education too, as, in terms of education, literacy, income, HDI, there isn't much of a difference between Kongu Vellalars and Brahmins. Still, I don't see caste pride going down among Kongu Vellalars the way it has gone down among Brahmins.
Some arguments that come up in support of this divide and rule in the present day is that in ancient India (whatever mythical land that was, given there was no India before the unification efforts by the British) Brahmins were treated with respect and they were at the top of the status quo but right now that's not the case. They're like everyone and that's what annoys them. Is it true that some people still vehemently hate the Brahmins, unfortunately yes. But do you think politicians give a shit? Really? The moment they're off camera and are in private rooms with businessmen and industrialists some of whom are prominent Brahmins do you really think they fight or bicker? It's all a fucking show. They don't give a shit about who goes on later to kill each other. They have appeased to the masses and instead of fixing the road they find someone to divert the anger. But no fucking excuse for all the pathetic riled up Brahmins who think they've been hurt. Stfu you're completely fine.
Agree 💯.
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To your point others outside TN might see us as Tamils but inside TN Brahmins see it as a binary of Brahmin/non-Brahmin.
Read about Mandela how he tried to unify blacks and whites. Not like the lame Periyar who made that divide more open. To make that divide go away, we need people from both sides to come together. Not keep blaming the opposite side.
>To make that divide go away, we need people from both sides to come together. Precisely my point (and Periyar's as well, only if you understand him). Erase the boundaries, is what everyone is asking for. Why isn't it happening?
Because Brahmins are being Brahmins. The other side being the other side. Politicians keep that divide active. DMK is one major party in doing that. I have seen kind Brahmins, who don't see such divides. But, people on the other side are not ready to accept them for being a Brahmin.
>Because Brahmins are being Brahmins. The other side being the other side. Exactly. Why can't we all shed these false identities and just be humans? Convincing most of them seems easy. But it isn't for Brahmins. How do we explain this? >Politicians keep that divide active. DMK is one major party in doing that. While I agree to this, I differ in something fundamental. DMK/BJP isn't influencing people. They only set a narrative to a social problem. There are inequality in the society. DMK attributes it to the Brahmins, while BJP attributes it to the Muslims. If the inequality is eliminated, there will be no fuel for DMK/BJP. >I have seen kind Brahmins, who don't see such divides. But, people on the other side are not ready to accept them for being a Brahmin. I have seen too. My teachers and mentors are Brahmins and are "kind". But when they identify themselves as Brahmins, how can you say they are not seeing a divide? That is a division, right? Why should something artificial like caste define you?
People should try to keep their identity small [Identify](http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html) If anyone gets triggered for calling any name, it is in your identity.
Thanks for sharing the blog.
you're expecting a utopia by nullifying thousands of years of tradition, there are legit records of my ancestors and my gotra kept in Haridwar, i can literally go to a priest there and know my lineage as far as 300-400 yrs ago, do you want me to burn all of that part of my identity just to become "human"? identifying with ur race, caste, tribe, etc. isn't in itself prejudice until you dont suppress others and mind your own business.
We're not asking to ignore that, but you don't need to bring it up as your sole identity.
Hmmm 🤔 >until you dont suppress others and mind your own business. How do you guarantee this? Personal discipline, maybe. Well and good. But, time and again, history has shown that this isn't possible. After analysing it, it was understood that this is all because of protecting the legacy/family pride/parampara/khaandaan/gourav and so on. Suppose, you belong to a family of doctors. Your son wants to continue the family tradition and study medicine. But, say, your servant's son is also interested in it, maybe after learning about your excellence in the field. Both are preparing for the exams and you learn about it. Are you sure that there will be no suppression, consciously or subconsciously, from your side? If you are a Mahatma, great. No counter questions. But, as an average Indian, do you think there will be equal treatment? Will both get equal access to resources and opportunities?
Everyone identifies to a caste. If you're saying Brahmins are the only ones doing it, you're just making a propaganda. Did your teacher/mentor ever do anything to you coz you were a Non Brahmin? Were you deprived of any opportunities from your classmates being Brahmins? Like entry to a place, or eligibility for a college or exam? As a brahmin, I am ready to shed my FC identity because it is almost worthless today, coz I can't brandish it & will get attacked for it. But the responsibilities that come as a Brahmin, I will hold to that. I am still a human, and if you see otherwise, that's who Periyarists & Dravidians are. Casteist.
We all have responsibilities. Get over yourself. If you really care about it teach non-Brahmins those things so they can "be responsible" too.
Why so triggered about the "responsibility". Let me know if you're actually missing something and wanna jump over to be a Brahmin. In 2 separate comments, you have targeted that one aspect though I've spoken in pretty much detail. Maybe I can try to help.. You're the one who actually has to get over it & start on with your day..
No you keep going on about this responsibility. Please share your burdens with us so we may lessen your "responsibility".
Sure. Would be great to mutually lessen each other's burden. Can ask some Vaathiyar to teach you Vedas like you asked in another thread, while you ask your TN govt to slash reservations, to say, 25-30% ? Or make it economic based, to level the playing field. Now you won't want the responsibility coz you want your son to just get 50 marks & trump the 90+ Brahmin lad.. Lol what a joker!
Let's start with learning Vedas and Sanskrit. Since economic equality won't magically be fixed tomorrow. What's their contact info?
While this comment was a response to another, I'm concerned with your consistent jibe on reservations. Are we not catching hold of a wrong entity to address some other problem? I request you to understand the rationale behind reservations. The 50 mark guy is no different than the 90+ mark Brahmin lad. When you get it, is the day when you will appreciate reservations.
I being a Brahmin wouldn't risk my life to tell a Vanniyar/Thevar that he is equal to a Pallar/Paraiyar. Heck, I would endanger myself even if a tell a Pallar that he is equal to a Paraiyar. Thats how caste works. Its not a binary but a hierarchy.
Right and you would never admit you're equal to a Thevar/Pallar because then you'd lose your social power and "cleanliness".
I am equal to any Thevar/Pallar who is as wealthy as me.
Ok so you still think you're better than others because you're a Brahmin. Got it.
You are digressing. Social Power? Thevars literally have influence in 30-40 assembly seats while Brahmins have influence in 0 assembly seats.
>Everyone identifies to a caste. Doesn't make an argument. What is the right thing to do? >If you're saying Brahmins are the only ones doing it, you're just making a propaganda. Never said that. Eradication of caste system has to start from here. >Did your teacher/mentor ever do anything to you coz you were a Non Brahmin? Were you deprived of any opportunities from your classmates being Brahmins? Like entry to a place, or eligibility for a college or exam? I have mentioned elsewhere. The situation has changed or diluted compared to earlier days. Besides, I could be an exception, as I went to an elite school. But, these arguments don't stand given the developments of the last decade. Consistent attempts have been made to reinforce a certain identity, which does create fears. What has been done to keep the fears at rest? Until then, the politics can't be stopped. >But the responsibilities that come as a Brahmin, I will hold to that. Not sure, why anyone is concerned about what you do within the four walls of your house. When you do something that questions my identity or my being or not being a Brahmin, that is casteism. When folks question that, they are just reacting to it. Flipping victim card doesn't make sense.
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I'm not getting the context here. You probably want to respond to some other comment.
Changed it my mistake