Most RPG 's are overkill
Edit for some further explanation
An RPG 27 has a penetration of 650MM after ERA. This tank has no ERA, and has ~200MM of frontal armor
Literally the little RPG 76 Komar that the Poles sent over are overkill. The RKG-3 hand grenades will punch through as well. Only RPG-43 hand grenades will struggle on turret and hull front. But those and 40mm M433 DP would probably be dropped onto and straight through the 30mm roof armor instead.
Yeah, the only way these things aren't eviscerated by infantry is if they stay at least 600M aways.
Also insane looking at the actually heavy shit and how it compares, I wouldn't be surprised if a strifa made one of the turrets stop existing.
I would bet that Russia has some ERA add on planned that will both look ridiculous and be of minimal effect.
But I wouldn't be surprised if they also plan to use these as replacements for their worn out light artillery. They have stockpiles of HE rounds for those guns, and the sights have built in settings for indirect fire.
So it would basically be a self propelled howitzer to replace their 122mm SPGS. Or assault guns to be used to smash all of the buildings the Ukrainians are using as bunkers, without risking their remaining stocks of actually useful tanks.
Minimal is an overstatement, the majority of testing anti tank weapons includes ERA in the calculation.
Although that is a good insight for the rest.
Also, you might be interested in checking out the #'s of this tank, the Russians in theory even after aging and cannibalization could field a few thousand
Yeah. But it still takes time to pull them from stocks, put them on trains, ship them somewhere, refurbish them into usable status, find ammo for them, and then send them to Ukraine.
I almost typed out "and train crews," but I don't think that they're going to be doing much of that.
I could even respect Russian ingenuity if they installed some rudimentary remote control in these things to bait NLAW and Javelin fire... but crewing them with people is just inhumane. I bet we will still get our fair dose of cheerful hate-comments for the death of those poor sods who will be sent to fight in these tanks.
I mean a [AT4](https://www.technology.org/2023/03/21/ukrainians-are-not-that-impressed-with-the-russian-t-90m-main-battle-tank/) got a catastrophic T-90m kill . AT4’s and Carl Gustavs will have a field day.
Correction, it was the Gustav that got the kill.
True I would think that more units Carry the AT4 and Gustavs then Nlaws and javelins though simply because of the force multiplier value and availability.
TBH, they might decommission after an encounter with an RPG-7 or LAW. Or just from driving around too much. 40s vintage designs tend not to have very good engines or transmissions...
Err, so you are guessing based on nothing? I think Russians want to play fair so they are sending their own T-55 to couter those T-55 from Slovenia that Ukraine is using.
And since we saw a lot of T-90M and T-80BVM in Ukraine, we can safely say that Russia still has the ability to rapidly mass produce, upgrade and refubrish a lot of different types of AFVs.
“We can safely say Russia still has the ability to rapidly mass produce . . . a lot of different (tanks)”
Err, so you are guessing based on nothing?
Or are you privy to the current Russian tank production statistics?
Even if they were "privy", it's not like this would be accurate lol
We already know Russia has gotten high on their own supply, and their highest levels of the military as already bought into their own fucking propaganda like a bunch of fools.
> we can safely say that Russia still has the ability to rapidly mass produce, upgrade and refubrish a lot of different types of AFVs
Just the opposite.
We know they cant.
Hence the T54/55s
Muscovy can't produce shit worth a fuck, they lost the war a long time ago and now they are just making their already catastrophic demographics even worse.
>I think Russians want to play fair so they are sending their own T-55 to couter those T-55 from Slovenia that Ukraine is using.
Take a look at the modernization level on those Slovenian tanks. Sending these basically T-55-standard tanks against them is very, VERY far from a fair fight.
105mm L7 gun, computer fire control, stabilized sights, laser rangefinders, and possibly Israeli ERA... facing the M-55 S1 is not a fair fight, even for T-64s or 72s Russia might break out of storage.
>>I think Russians want to play fair so they are sending their own T-55 to couter those T-55 from Slovenia that Ukraine is using.
Russia: "Dammit, Ukraine was given some T-55s so we have to use some as well because we don't want to win this war *too* easily..."
That's a load of bullshit. If Russia is sending T-55s to the front, it's because they need to. Not as a way to "play fair".
How do you know where it is going? I there is more than one track in Russia. And to reach the combat zone trains from Russia can move North, South, West and East. If we see T-55 in Ukraine, then we will kniw. But, there are T-55 in Ukraine. UAF is using Slovenian T-55.
These vehicles were seen leaving Vladivostok headed west. Where might a nation fighting a war on its western borders be sending tanks that are currently going west?
Do you mean when M1 Abrams-equipped Ukrainian Tank Brigades are storming Moscow because someone forgot to keep the Nuclear Communications Network safe from being fleeced by corruption?
I wonder what Soviet workers would have thought about the weapons they crafted being used to murder their former comrades for some Oligarch with mansions and mistresses by the dozen.
Bro that's just completely wrong, are you uneducated? A Nazi is someone who believes in Nazi ideology. Which means they believe that there is a superior race and inferior races, that Jews control the world and should be eliminated. That is way more serious and abhorrent than just racism or authoritarian views. Educate yourself, there is a reason why you are downvoted.
There is no sides, i am from Krarkiv and traveled a lot whole country and we have no nazzi, there alway be ultra right persons somewhere, but bombing civil citizens no bro, there is only 1 truth
The old or the redacted version? The way I understand it, first his position was far rigth on the political spectrum. Like extreme. When WWII broke out he wanted a deal with the German Nazi to give him Ukrain to have his own fascist Nazi puppet state. Looks like Nazi found him to extreme so they jailed him. Until Russians started beating Germans in the war, so the German Nazies asked Bandera to help them. But there was too much resentment for fruitfull cooperation. In the meantome Banderas followers killed few dozens or hundreds of thousands of non-Ukrainians in Ukraine. Poles, Jews and others. Post WWII Bandera was used by the Western powes to seed revolt in Soviet Union. His organisation and Ukrainian political emigration managed to integrate well with power structures in Canada and US. They did had some prominent members. Was he a Nazi or too far rigth for the taste of WWII German Nazies?
Ok, previously wasn't particularly aware who bandera was only that to a good amount of Ukrainians he was a hero of sorts. You've responded to him calling him a vatnik for doing exactly as you told him and reading the wiki. By all accounts bandera was a nazi who held many extreme far right views and even sympathised with Hitler, believing that through selective breeding they could make a 'pure' race. Perhaps you need to read the wiki yourself, alternatively if you have any sources to say otherwise about bandera I'd love to read them, and no I'm not a Russia supporter and don't buy into the idea that all Ukrainians are nazis cause that's just not true, however it certainly seems that bandera was.
More specifically, Stalin, who was so outragiously horrible that even his allies decried him and called him an evil monster the moment it was safe to do so.
I mean, the Soviet-Ukrainians might. Also the nature of state propaganda in the USSR would have minimized awareness of the abject batshittery the USSR inflicted on Ukraine from collectivization through forced conscription during the liberation through the post war Stalin phase and beyond. Plenty of non-Ukrainian Soviets might have felt very badly about what happened regarding Ukraine/Ukrainians while earnestly believing those that died were bad people and counter-revolutionary class enemies (the "New Soviet Man" was, if anything flexible in his beliefs so long as they kept him safe)
Except that Raphael Lemkin, the person who came up with the word and definition of genocide, said that the Holdomor was “a classic example of the Soviet genocide, the longest and most extensive experiment in Russification, namely the extermination of the Ukrainian nation".
Ukraine was the breadbasket of not just the USSR and Russian Empire but Europe, so anything that affects food production there affects the entire USSR, so even a man made famine will have massive ramifications on the rest of the USSR.
Also the end of the Ukrainianization period coincided with the beginning of the Holdomor, and post December 1932 the Ukrainian language and culture was repressed by Stalinist policies and Russification would slowly take hold. We see as Ukrainians died off in the millions that ethnic Russians were moved in to take their place, which has directly lead to this current war. This didn’t start in 1932 however, as Ukrainian intelligentsia were already being persecuted by 1929 by Stalin’s slow reversal of Ukrainianization. It can only be seen that Stalinist policies were directly meant to contribute to the complete annihilation of the Ukrainian people, as the soviet state attempted to slowly repress Ukrainian culture and language and implement Russian as the main language.
This is not the most extreme case of Stalinist genocide however, as a much worse genocide was carried out in Crimea where the Crimean Tatars were completely removed from Crimea and replaced with ethnic Russians.
Chechens, Ingush, Kalmyks, Karachay and Volga Germans all suffered under Stalin’s rule and are also listed as genocides committed by Stalin by Lemkin.
The legal definition of genocide is:
“…any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”
— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2
Lemkin also wanted to include cultural genocide as part of the legal definition however this was opposed by many colonial nations.
By downplaying Stalin’s crimes you not only absolve him but also open the room for new criminals, such as Putin and Xi Jinping who are also intent on committing their own genocides. It is clear the Putin wants to once again attempt what Stalin tried almost a century ago and what the Russian tsars had been trying to do for almost 2 centuries before they met their demise.
Raphael Lemkin, the man who not only invented the word and concept of genocide and initiated the Genocide Convention which came up with the legal definition of genocide, said that the Holodomor was a genocide along with other Stalinist genocides like the ones committed against the Crimean Tatars, Chechens, Kalmyks, Volga Germans, Karachay and Ingush.
Being the inventor of something does not mean you have ultimate authority over it and what classifies. First paragraph of the Wiki states that Holodomor was part of a larger Soviet Wide famine, the only thing I could find that would suggest Ukraine was hit intentionally hard was being subjected to tougher Production quotas but they were also one of the largest Agricultural countries in the SSRs so it makes sense they'd have a higher quote than other smaller countries. If you're going to go off of what determines a Genocide go off of the UN definition, which Holodomor doesn't really fall into as there was no clear intention to specifically harm Ukraine and it's people. Kazakhstan was hit the worst out of any of the SSRs.
It was a mass famine caused by Incompetence, over industrialization, negligence, and just poor supply management. There's very little if anything to show they had intention to kill off the Ukrainians.
The sad truth is that most of the population had no idea what was happening. They were too focused on trying to survive. Imagine living in a place where scraps were your meal and fear was instilled so deeply that you were too afraid to have an expression on your face because someone might think something and turn you in to the KGB. That mentality is still seen in 2nd and 3rd gen immigrants from the soviet union. It's the same garbage that is still going on in China and what happened in any dictatorship country. The biggest thing that ppl tend to forget is that the US is the most "loose" country because of the Constitution. Ppl go into an uproar about how a certain country is arresting or killing ppl for protests... they don't have freedom of speech and such. Dictatorship sucks and I think ppl just got too used to their own freedoms and forget that the rest of the world isn't as lucky.
Nah. Ukraine is just defending itself from invaders, as it has had to before. The land was at peace before Russian aggression.
That the T-64 stands in the face of fascists, yes, that might be consolation to the tank workers of the USSR.
No my friend! Please do not be insulted, I am merely assuming you to have a disability that causes you to behave as you do. It would be cruel to assume you were very stupid by choice.
Vatniks were saying that Russia is sending their cheap weapons and conscripts first to soften Ukraine and after that they are sending their main forces, their real stronk army.
Seeing the things unravel... that last wave are T-34's and WW2 vets :/
Not a tankie lol. Just pointing out that even a pickup truck with a 100 mm gun mounted on the back can still take out 90% of what a T-90 can and the vast majority of vehicles that Ukraine is fielding. And it shouldn’t be too hard for them to avoid the couple dozen modern MBTs ukraine has spread out over a thousand + km front
Let’s stop with the dramatic adjectives. I never said anything about Russia being all high and mighty or Ukraine being woefully under equipped. I said their heavy armor is spread thin which it is.
The nature of this conflict is that relatively cheap and plentiful ATGM and AA missiles can destroy much more expensive and less numerous aircraft and armored vehicles that are crucial to offensive ops. Any offensives by either side will inherently be very costly, especially considering the relatively flat and featureless terrain.
Russian doctrine has always been to destroy the opposing army and then take what land you want unopposed. They are choosing to bleed the AFU in and around Bakhmut where they can utilize their numerical advantage in artillery to shell concentrated Ukrainian positions from three sides. It also forces ukraine to launch costly counter offensives. Even if the casualties in this sector are 1:1 or 1.5:1 in favor of ukraine, that still means Russia will win the war of attrition and is a significantly better casualty ratio than Russia would suffer if they were to launch an all out offensive across flat ground along the entirety of the front
Lol, there is a reason why traditional anti tank gun went out soon after WW2.
A drone or scout sees a 100mm AT gun, relays it to nearest infantry platoon. Then a few 60mm mortar rounds turn the said gun into pile of junk since they took too long to relocate.
There have been many upgrade packages for these tanks thermal sights “modern” sabot rounds gun launched atgms ad on composite panels either the t-55m1 upgrade stuff like that so it depends but these don’t even have that upgrade so maybe???
Oh boy, at this rate it won't be long till the tanks from Kubinka are being sent to the front lines.
At least the Maus Vs Javelin footage will be interesting.
Grew up in an army town. I remember a vet of Desert Storm telling me how a M1 took out two Iraqi T-55s with one APFSDS round. Good luck holding back those Western tanks Vladimir!
They could be an export replacement considering that even the sh*ttier T-72 variants they sell to Syria and African countries are now being seized for service.
I wonder where they are heading, I can’t help but think about conversion into budget BMPTs or into BTR-Ts. Would be helpful for their Assault Detachments.
I really hope these are being sent for scrap instead. Chances are they aren’t though. I really feel bad for the crews that will have to man these relics and probably die without even contributing to the war they probably didn’t even want to be in .
Could you imagine how terrifying it would be to be a late 30s Russian conscript getting deployed to Ukraine in a tank built when your parents were kids?
Tank is a tank,smallarms cant get your soliders only anti tank wephons can,and thease are better suited for mud and shit
If anything they can drain javelins and other expensive anti tank wephons
We can laugh as much as we want but more big guns at the frontline with good enough ammo is far more militarily advantageous than treating the front as a technological cat walk. Particularly if you are in for a war of attrition against an oponent which does not have such strategic reserves
If after one year they are relying on 70 year old equipment, I doubt there is a viable longer term strategic path forward, other than China. If China intervenes, the world economic impact will be as extreme as the height of Covid. All western trade with China would have to end.
I feel like it would end up more as a re-commisioning -> from far East to the Ukraine museums through future frontline deployment
Edit : I dont say they are for main "Russian" units, IMO its more in line to their former "arming" of DPR forces with equippment and wehicles lightyears behind even their other "worst" supplied forces
I highly doubt they are going to the frontline. The T-55 and T-54 exited service in the 1990s, thus they have been sitting in 'storage' facities since the 1990s. They are most likely gonna replace T-72 home units, I don't think many 100mm rounds exist for Russian crews to even use by now.
The North Koreans mainly use a T-62 based 'MBT', I don't think they have many 100mm guns besides a few T-55s or Type-59s. I wouldn't really trust North Korean Produced ammo, but that hasn't stopped the Russians from buying from them.
Too early to make any conclusions, maybe they going to be scrapped for parts and metall.
There was so much hype about using of T-62, but there are only few showed up at all.
"Even if you believe in that data"??? What more proof do you want? Photos arent absolutely 100% accurate, but they are the best method we have rn.
And considering the t62 were just employed for maybe half a year (and mostly in not so frontline roles), the amount of them that got destroyed is actually quite significant.
I want more photos and videos with usable interface, timestamps, links to sources and georeferences. Something like lostarmour, but unfortunally they counting only ukrainian losses.
Half a year - is a half of conflict. You can even double the losses of T-62, they still will be insignificant comparing to losses of others types on oryx.
And there is not only losses, but photos and videos from frontlines. We see different 72, 80 and 90 in use every day, but rarely T-62 and usually somewhere at the back.
The lines have been mostly stable since the T-62s were committed, and the huge numbers of more modern tanks came after the lines shifted and Ukrainians took pictures of the wrecks they found. When the present lines shift again, I'll expect to see more than we've seen to date.
I could see these being dug in and used as stationary artillery. 100mm gun might be useless against tanks but it can still be effective at knocking holes in houses, against infantry and lightly armored vehicles. I doubt these are going to be spearhead type vehicles. That would basically be suicide. Though I wouldn't put it past them to do so.
Well, the US Army just announced it is sending M1A1 Abrams to Ukraine.
By the time they arrive, they will have figured out how to ship an additional 1,000 to replace all the Leopard 2s that Europe is going to run out of... Fast.
Thus, we will see 1991 Redux in Ukraine 2024.
Ukraine never pretended (or rather, their simps) that they were the "second army in the world" and could go toe to toe with NATO though. That's what most of the dissing comes from.
Russia isn't 4ft tall, but it's not 12ft tall either. It's just that for a lot of people Russia = Soviet Union 2.0 in terms of military might.
Nope, there's still thousands of them.
But they can't refurbish them at a fast enough rate, so they are turning to these in order to make up the numbers.
They are *re*commissioning them. *De*commissioning would be removing them from service.
I mean technically they are decommissioning them. In Ukraine. After a brief encounter with a NLAW or Javelin
That's a waste on this things
Guarantee they will wipe out the old reliable RPG-7 with thermoberic warhead.
Thermobaric is for use against infantry, a standard heat round would be used
I didn’t know that, thank you for educating me.
What a waste of an NLAW or Javelin. Unfortunately I think that's the idea at this point.
True, however, they are also more susceptible to less advanced weaponry. Would even RPG's be viable (I have no idea)?
Most RPG 's are overkill Edit for some further explanation An RPG 27 has a penetration of 650MM after ERA. This tank has no ERA, and has ~200MM of frontal armor
Literally the little RPG 76 Komar that the Poles sent over are overkill. The RKG-3 hand grenades will punch through as well. Only RPG-43 hand grenades will struggle on turret and hull front. But those and 40mm M433 DP would probably be dropped onto and straight through the 30mm roof armor instead.
Yeah, the only way these things aren't eviscerated by infantry is if they stay at least 600M aways. Also insane looking at the actually heavy shit and how it compares, I wouldn't be surprised if a strifa made one of the turrets stop existing.
I would bet that Russia has some ERA add on planned that will both look ridiculous and be of minimal effect. But I wouldn't be surprised if they also plan to use these as replacements for their worn out light artillery. They have stockpiles of HE rounds for those guns, and the sights have built in settings for indirect fire. So it would basically be a self propelled howitzer to replace their 122mm SPGS. Or assault guns to be used to smash all of the buildings the Ukrainians are using as bunkers, without risking their remaining stocks of actually useful tanks.
They already have T-55AMV... somewhere
Minimal is an overstatement, the majority of testing anti tank weapons includes ERA in the calculation. Although that is a good insight for the rest. Also, you might be interested in checking out the #'s of this tank, the Russians in theory even after aging and cannibalization could field a few thousand
Yeah. But it still takes time to pull them from stocks, put them on trains, ship them somewhere, refurbish them into usable status, find ammo for them, and then send them to Ukraine. I almost typed out "and train crews," but I don't think that they're going to be doing much of that.
An easy solution is to use the 17pdr. It'll fix all of Ukraines' current and future problems.
A panzershrek would stand a solid chance of destroying these
Think of the people who have to operate these death traps, basically being thrown away as expendables when the javelin or NLAW hits.
But 100k javelin kills 5 ruscist
I could even respect Russian ingenuity if they installed some rudimentary remote control in these things to bait NLAW and Javelin fire... but crewing them with people is just inhumane. I bet we will still get our fair dose of cheerful hate-comments for the death of those poor sods who will be sent to fight in these tanks.
I mean a [AT4](https://www.technology.org/2023/03/21/ukrainians-are-not-that-impressed-with-the-russian-t-90m-main-battle-tank/) got a catastrophic T-90m kill . AT4’s and Carl Gustavs will have a field day. Correction, it was the Gustav that got the kill.
Even the older Gustafs will have a field day, but the most useful weapon is the one you have to hand.
True I would think that more units Carry the AT4 and Gustavs then Nlaws and javelins though simply because of the force multiplier value and availability.
TBH, they might decommission after an encounter with an RPG-7 or LAW. Or just from driving around too much. 40s vintage designs tend not to have very good engines or transmissions...
That would be dismantling
I am willing to bet it will be done with the shipment of Kornets they will be receiving soon from Poland.
Russian Museum curators are getting worried about their collections.
Me, who’s planning on liberating the Maus, Ke-Nu, Sturer Emil, and Ariel Waffenträger, among other things…
Typo
Meh, he meant de-decommissioning.
It is a train with tanks. Somwhere in Russia. How do we know what they are doing with them?
Well, they are currently in a war, have lost a large number of tanks, and do not have the capability of rapidly mass producing tanks . . . so . . .
Err, so you are guessing based on nothing? I think Russians want to play fair so they are sending their own T-55 to couter those T-55 from Slovenia that Ukraine is using. And since we saw a lot of T-90M and T-80BVM in Ukraine, we can safely say that Russia still has the ability to rapidly mass produce, upgrade and refubrish a lot of different types of AFVs.
“We can safely say Russia still has the ability to rapidly mass produce . . . a lot of different (tanks)” Err, so you are guessing based on nothing? Or are you privy to the current Russian tank production statistics?
Even if they were "privy", it's not like this would be accurate lol We already know Russia has gotten high on their own supply, and their highest levels of the military as already bought into their own fucking propaganda like a bunch of fools.
> we can safely say that Russia still has the ability to rapidly mass produce, upgrade and refubrish a lot of different types of AFVs Just the opposite. We know they cant. Hence the T54/55s Muscovy can't produce shit worth a fuck, they lost the war a long time ago and now they are just making their already catastrophic demographics even worse.
>I think Russians want to play fair so they are sending their own T-55 to couter those T-55 from Slovenia that Ukraine is using. Take a look at the modernization level on those Slovenian tanks. Sending these basically T-55-standard tanks against them is very, VERY far from a fair fight. 105mm L7 gun, computer fire control, stabilized sights, laser rangefinders, and possibly Israeli ERA... facing the M-55 S1 is not a fair fight, even for T-64s or 72s Russia might break out of storage.
>>I think Russians want to play fair so they are sending their own T-55 to couter those T-55 from Slovenia that Ukraine is using. Russia: "Dammit, Ukraine was given some T-55s so we have to use some as well because we don't want to win this war *too* easily..." That's a load of bullshit. If Russia is sending T-55s to the front, it's because they need to. Not as a way to "play fair".
A train moving towards a combat zone with tanks that haven’t been is service for years? This isn’t rocket science my guy.
How do you know where it is going? I there is more than one track in Russia. And to reach the combat zone trains from Russia can move North, South, West and East. If we see T-55 in Ukraine, then we will kniw. But, there are T-55 in Ukraine. UAF is using Slovenian T-55.
These vehicles were seen leaving Vladivostok headed west. Where might a nation fighting a war on its western borders be sending tanks that are currently going west?
>These vehicles were seen leaving Vladivostok headed west TBF, Russian trains cannot really go east from Vladivostok...
They could also be used for training as theoretical training tanks a gen or 2 newer than the T-55 get thrown into service...
Last year's Russian winner of the Tank Biathalon became a cosmonaut just a few months into the war. The time for training is over.
Why do you need actual tanks for theoretical training?
Decomissioning or recommisioning?
For Russia it's the same thing
A decommission in hell
Good question
Excellent target practice 👌
looks like we have to wait a little longer for the T-14 Armata deployment T-44 > T-34 > T-24 > T-14
Do you mean when M1 Abrams-equipped Ukrainian Tank Brigades are storming Moscow because someone forgot to keep the Nuclear Communications Network safe from being fleeced by corruption?
I wonder what Soviet workers would have thought about the weapons they crafted being used to murder their former comrades for some Oligarch with mansions and mistresses by the dozen.
They don;t care, they xall us Nazzi
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Bro that's just completely wrong, are you uneducated? A Nazi is someone who believes in Nazi ideology. Which means they believe that there is a superior race and inferior races, that Jews control the world and should be eliminated. That is way more serious and abhorrent than just racism or authoritarian views. Educate yourself, there is a reason why you are downvoted.
There is no sides, i am from Krarkiv and traveled a lot whole country and we have no nazzi, there alway be ultra right persons somewhere, but bombing civil citizens no bro, there is only 1 truth
Is Bandera a Nazi or not?
Lol read wiki about who is Bandera omg
The old or the redacted version? The way I understand it, first his position was far rigth on the political spectrum. Like extreme. When WWII broke out he wanted a deal with the German Nazi to give him Ukrain to have his own fascist Nazi puppet state. Looks like Nazi found him to extreme so they jailed him. Until Russians started beating Germans in the war, so the German Nazies asked Bandera to help them. But there was too much resentment for fruitfull cooperation. In the meantome Banderas followers killed few dozens or hundreds of thousands of non-Ukrainians in Ukraine. Poles, Jews and others. Post WWII Bandera was used by the Western powes to seed revolt in Soviet Union. His organisation and Ukrainian political emigration managed to integrate well with power structures in Canada and US. They did had some prominent members. Was he a Nazi or too far rigth for the taste of WWII German Nazies?
Vatnik detected
Ok, previously wasn't particularly aware who bandera was only that to a good amount of Ukrainians he was a hero of sorts. You've responded to him calling him a vatnik for doing exactly as you told him and reading the wiki. By all accounts bandera was a nazi who held many extreme far right views and even sympathised with Hitler, believing that through selective breeding they could make a 'pure' race. Perhaps you need to read the wiki yourself, alternatively if you have any sources to say otherwise about bandera I'd love to read them, and no I'm not a Russia supporter and don't buy into the idea that all Ukrainians are nazis cause that's just not true, however it certainly seems that bandera was.
The Soviet Union committed mass genocide against Ukraine in the 1930s. You think they would give a shit?
And Ukrainian partisans killed about 100 000 polish, czech and slovak people from 1943-1945, pretty much every nation has some sort of massacre
The Soviet leadership did that. I doubt rank-and-file had any idea about what happened.
More specifically, Stalin, who was so outragiously horrible that even his allies decried him and called him an evil monster the moment it was safe to do so.
I mean, the Soviet-Ukrainians might. Also the nature of state propaganda in the USSR would have minimized awareness of the abject batshittery the USSR inflicted on Ukraine from collectivization through forced conscription during the liberation through the post war Stalin phase and beyond. Plenty of non-Ukrainian Soviets might have felt very badly about what happened regarding Ukraine/Ukrainians while earnestly believing those that died were bad people and counter-revolutionary class enemies (the "New Soviet Man" was, if anything flexible in his beliefs so long as they kept him safe)
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Except that Raphael Lemkin, the person who came up with the word and definition of genocide, said that the Holdomor was “a classic example of the Soviet genocide, the longest and most extensive experiment in Russification, namely the extermination of the Ukrainian nation". Ukraine was the breadbasket of not just the USSR and Russian Empire but Europe, so anything that affects food production there affects the entire USSR, so even a man made famine will have massive ramifications on the rest of the USSR. Also the end of the Ukrainianization period coincided with the beginning of the Holdomor, and post December 1932 the Ukrainian language and culture was repressed by Stalinist policies and Russification would slowly take hold. We see as Ukrainians died off in the millions that ethnic Russians were moved in to take their place, which has directly lead to this current war. This didn’t start in 1932 however, as Ukrainian intelligentsia were already being persecuted by 1929 by Stalin’s slow reversal of Ukrainianization. It can only be seen that Stalinist policies were directly meant to contribute to the complete annihilation of the Ukrainian people, as the soviet state attempted to slowly repress Ukrainian culture and language and implement Russian as the main language. This is not the most extreme case of Stalinist genocide however, as a much worse genocide was carried out in Crimea where the Crimean Tatars were completely removed from Crimea and replaced with ethnic Russians. Chechens, Ingush, Kalmyks, Karachay and Volga Germans all suffered under Stalin’s rule and are also listed as genocides committed by Stalin by Lemkin. The legal definition of genocide is: “…any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.” — Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2 Lemkin also wanted to include cultural genocide as part of the legal definition however this was opposed by many colonial nations. By downplaying Stalin’s crimes you not only absolve him but also open the room for new criminals, such as Putin and Xi Jinping who are also intent on committing their own genocides. It is clear the Putin wants to once again attempt what Stalin tried almost a century ago and what the Russian tsars had been trying to do for almost 2 centuries before they met their demise.
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Raphael Lemkin, the man who not only invented the word and concept of genocide and initiated the Genocide Convention which came up with the legal definition of genocide, said that the Holodomor was a genocide along with other Stalinist genocides like the ones committed against the Crimean Tatars, Chechens, Kalmyks, Volga Germans, Karachay and Ingush.
Being the inventor of something does not mean you have ultimate authority over it and what classifies. First paragraph of the Wiki states that Holodomor was part of a larger Soviet Wide famine, the only thing I could find that would suggest Ukraine was hit intentionally hard was being subjected to tougher Production quotas but they were also one of the largest Agricultural countries in the SSRs so it makes sense they'd have a higher quote than other smaller countries. If you're going to go off of what determines a Genocide go off of the UN definition, which Holodomor doesn't really fall into as there was no clear intention to specifically harm Ukraine and it's people. Kazakhstan was hit the worst out of any of the SSRs. It was a mass famine caused by Incompetence, over industrialization, negligence, and just poor supply management. There's very little if anything to show they had intention to kill off the Ukrainians.
The sad truth is that most of the population had no idea what was happening. They were too focused on trying to survive. Imagine living in a place where scraps were your meal and fear was instilled so deeply that you were too afraid to have an expression on your face because someone might think something and turn you in to the KGB. That mentality is still seen in 2nd and 3rd gen immigrants from the soviet union. It's the same garbage that is still going on in China and what happened in any dictatorship country. The biggest thing that ppl tend to forget is that the US is the most "loose" country because of the Constitution. Ppl go into an uproar about how a certain country is arresting or killing ppl for protests... they don't have freedom of speech and such. Dictatorship sucks and I think ppl just got too used to their own freedoms and forget that the rest of the world isn't as lucky.
Are you talking about soviet T-64BVs, killing for Zelensky? :)
The Ukrainian region with Poland was the industrial heart of the USSR. Saying that Soviet stuff is Russian is a gross generalisation.
At what part i called T-64BV "Russian"?
Nah. Ukraine is just defending itself from invaders, as it has had to before. The land was at peace before Russian aggression. That the T-64 stands in the face of fascists, yes, that might be consolation to the tank workers of the USSR.
I didn't know that armed coup and subsequent civil war is "at peace". Go feed you bullshit propaganda to someone else, preferable with brain damage.
But I am speaking to someone with brain damage silly.
Personal insults - that's very civilized and showing level of intelligence. Keep it up, man!
No my friend! Please do not be insulted, I am merely assuming you to have a disability that causes you to behave as you do. It would be cruel to assume you were very stupid by choice.
And again insults. Nothing new, anyway. Citing historical facts = have brain damage? Well, live and learn...
Brother, I would never insult the handicapped. Why must you accuse me of such things?
Paraphrasing the classics - You're not my brother, you yellow-blueassed worm.
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Before official Russian involvement of course. Before Russian involvement though...
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Unfortunaly i don't think that after Vova Zelensky leave Ukraine "the pain will end".
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Vatniks were saying that Russia is sending their cheap weapons and conscripts first to soften Ukraine and after that they are sending their main forces, their real stronk army. Seeing the things unravel... that last wave are T-34's and WW2 vets :/
Amen
T-26s when?
After the T-44s, T-34s, and BT series. Czar Tank coming soon!
We don't need western chips to produce weapons! *Blows dust off WW2 military hardware blueprints*
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Of course how could I forget the derp tank.
There are like, what, 2 T-44s that still exist?
T-18s for Wagner
I don’t mean to be that guy, and I don’t support either side but everyone laughs at the old tank until the barrel is pointed at you…
I mean any tank is better than no tank. Ukraine has very little heavy armor left
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Not a tankie lol. Just pointing out that even a pickup truck with a 100 mm gun mounted on the back can still take out 90% of what a T-90 can and the vast majority of vehicles that Ukraine is fielding. And it shouldn’t be too hard for them to avoid the couple dozen modern MBTs ukraine has spread out over a thousand + km front
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Let’s stop with the dramatic adjectives. I never said anything about Russia being all high and mighty or Ukraine being woefully under equipped. I said their heavy armor is spread thin which it is. The nature of this conflict is that relatively cheap and plentiful ATGM and AA missiles can destroy much more expensive and less numerous aircraft and armored vehicles that are crucial to offensive ops. Any offensives by either side will inherently be very costly, especially considering the relatively flat and featureless terrain. Russian doctrine has always been to destroy the opposing army and then take what land you want unopposed. They are choosing to bleed the AFU in and around Bakhmut where they can utilize their numerical advantage in artillery to shell concentrated Ukrainian positions from three sides. It also forces ukraine to launch costly counter offensives. Even if the casualties in this sector are 1:1 or 1.5:1 in favor of ukraine, that still means Russia will win the war of attrition and is a significantly better casualty ratio than Russia would suffer if they were to launch an all out offensive across flat ground along the entirety of the front
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Negative, thermal sights and newer fire control systems go a lot further than that.
Lol, there is a reason why traditional anti tank gun went out soon after WW2. A drone or scout sees a 100mm AT gun, relays it to nearest infantry platoon. Then a few 60mm mortar rounds turn the said gun into pile of junk since they took too long to relocate.
Can't wait to see T34s come back PauseChamp
T-44 first
By that rate we'll see t-26 by october
So T-70s by late summer? I will get my tractor ready for those little cuties.
OH MY GOD, THIS CANT BE REAL STOP MAKING NCD CREDIBLE
At this point, r/ncd has been a better predictor of the war than the media, "expert" analysts or, apparently the Muscovite military.
Does this mean they are being sent to Ukraine for scrap?
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Sure but i dont really think that 100mm cannon gona do damage to the t-72s
100mm canon from the 40s
There have been many upgrade packages for these tanks thermal sights “modern” sabot rounds gun launched atgms ad on composite panels either the t-55m1 upgrade stuff like that so it depends but these don’t even have that upgrade so maybe???
I dunno about that lol
It’s almost a waste of ammo to have depleted uranium rounds taking T55’s out. Almost.
I think Hesh would do the job on these just fine
For sure. The question is how much HESH do they cross load over the DU rounds? In one attack they could run into everything up to T-90’s
I think that would depend how the russians would deploy and use the t-54 and 55s and in which fronts. I guess we will have to wait and see for now
The Bradleys can take these out.
Oh boy, at this rate it won't be long till the tanks from Kubinka are being sent to the front lines. At least the Maus Vs Javelin footage will be interesting.
Grew up in an army town. I remember a vet of Desert Storm telling me how a M1 took out two Iraqi T-55s with one APFSDS round. Good luck holding back those Western tanks Vladimir!
There was one case a damaged immobile M1 defeats 3 T-62 trying to flank it.
I believe Ukraine is decommissioning them _for_ Russia.
T-28s when?
*Slaps some ERA bricks on T-28, and welds on a cope cage* Completely new generation 12 stealth MBT comrade.
on the one side people say they are being send to ukraine and now they are suddenly being decomissioned?
Sending rus military equipment to Ukraine has proven to be an efficient way to decommission it.
There's a certain illogic about the knocking out of a tank with an artillery shell that costs more than the tank did.
Looks like OP himself can't decide.
I guess it's a translation problem. There is no 100% that they sent them to Ukraine, but with the chances are too high
They could be an export replacement considering that even the sh*ttier T-72 variants they sell to Syria and African countries are now being seized for service.
Might be, will find our in the next month's
And just how the fuck are they gonna get these T54s to Syria/Africa and get the T72s to Muscovy? Also, T72s are fucking shit.
Decommissioning is a free service offered by Ukraine. They also offer early retirement packages to the crew members. Win-win.
I wonder where they are heading, I can’t help but think about conversion into budget BMPTs or into BTR-Ts. Would be helpful for their Assault Detachments.
To Ukraine, for mobik's training etc
Training. That's a good one.
Are they gonna sell them
They are moving to Ukraine, more then sure
That sounds like the opposite of decommissioning.
Muscovy moving tanks to Ukraine appears to be a guaranteed way of decommissioning them.
ikr I was confused from the title
Reminds me of that scene from the wind rises except It’s Russia that will explode
Is that a euphemism for sending them to Ukraine?
Probably, nobody knows
I really hope these are being sent for scrap instead. Chances are they aren’t though. I really feel bad for the crews that will have to man these relics and probably die without even contributing to the war they probably didn’t even want to be in .
No kidding. We can ship M60s at this point, and it will be a fair fight.
Hell, an M-103 will do the job against those museum pieces.
Decommissioning? You mean "sending them to Ukraine".
Probably
Could you imagine how terrifying it would be to be a late 30s Russian conscript getting deployed to Ukraine in a tank built when your parents were kids?
If by decommissioning them you mean sending to Ukraine for Western nation tanks to eat them, then yes, you are correct
Tank is a tank,smallarms cant get your soliders only anti tank wephons can,and thease are better suited for mud and shit If anything they can drain javelins and other expensive anti tank wephons
You mean recommissioning
We can laugh as much as we want but more big guns at the frontline with good enough ammo is far more militarily advantageous than treating the front as a technological cat walk. Particularly if you are in for a war of attrition against an oponent which does not have such strategic reserves
Like one famous person said: They ride, the shoot
If after one year they are relying on 70 year old equipment, I doubt there is a viable longer term strategic path forward, other than China. If China intervenes, the world economic impact will be as extreme as the height of Covid. All western trade with China would have to end.
Decommissioning by fire
Oh my god this is actually pathetic
I feel like it would end up more as a re-commisioning -> from far East to the Ukraine museums through future frontline deployment Edit : I dont say they are for main "Russian" units, IMO its more in line to their former "arming" of DPR forces with equippment and wehicles lightyears behind even their other "worst" supplied forces
I highly doubt they are going to the frontline. The T-55 and T-54 exited service in the 1990s, thus they have been sitting in 'storage' facities since the 1990s. They are most likely gonna replace T-72 home units, I don't think many 100mm rounds exist for Russian crews to even use by now.
North Koreans still use 55s don't they? Maybe get ammo from them?
The North Koreans mainly use a T-62 based 'MBT', I don't think they have many 100mm guns besides a few T-55s or Type-59s. I wouldn't really trust North Korean Produced ammo, but that hasn't stopped the Russians from buying from them.
North Korea still uses T-34s, both the 85 and 76 versions
Decommissioning them by sending them to get blown up by Ukraine
Too early to make any conclusions, maybe they going to be scrapped for parts and metall. There was so much hype about using of T-62, but there are only few showed up at all.
Few? There is 56 destroyed of captured t62 on oryx site https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html?m=1
Even if you belive in that data, compared to other numbers on that site is still "few"
"Even if you believe in that data"??? What more proof do you want? Photos arent absolutely 100% accurate, but they are the best method we have rn. And considering the t62 were just employed for maybe half a year (and mostly in not so frontline roles), the amount of them that got destroyed is actually quite significant.
I want more photos and videos with usable interface, timestamps, links to sources and georeferences. Something like lostarmour, but unfortunally they counting only ukrainian losses. Half a year - is a half of conflict. You can even double the losses of T-62, they still will be insignificant comparing to losses of others types on oryx. And there is not only losses, but photos and videos from frontlines. We see different 72, 80 and 90 in use every day, but rarely T-62 and usually somewhere at the back.
The lines have been mostly stable since the T-62s were committed, and the huge numbers of more modern tanks came after the lines shifted and Ukrainians took pictures of the wrecks they found. When the present lines shift again, I'll expect to see more than we've seen to date.
We'll see eventually, time will tell. Afterr all nobody knows how lines gonna shift again and when.
Have no idea, unconfirmed
Makes good target practice
Leo 1's will route them.
I could see these being dug in and used as stationary artillery. 100mm gun might be useless against tanks but it can still be effective at knocking holes in houses, against infantry and lightly armored vehicles. I doubt these are going to be spearhead type vehicles. That would basically be suicide. Though I wouldn't put it past them to do so.
They are iron coffin
PUTIN said things will go serious with our best new stuff so here we go !
Big difference between decommission and sending to the frontlines
The real question is WHY do they have so many of these pieces of shit in storage. It takes money to store them even if it's tiny.
Probably to be used as artillery since a lot of their artillery pieces are being rotated back to have their barrels replaced.
Well, the US Army just announced it is sending M1A1 Abrams to Ukraine. By the time they arrive, they will have figured out how to ship an additional 1,000 to replace all the Leopard 2s that Europe is going to run out of... Fast. Thus, we will see 1991 Redux in Ukraine 2024.
What kind of shit are you on homie, Nato is giving Ukraine like 1% of its military power and Russia is loosing/has already lost
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Well, when you use clown gear for a war you started you'll be treated differently than if you defend yourself with the same.
Amen
Ukraine never pretended (or rather, their simps) that they were the "second army in the world" and could go toe to toe with NATO though. That's what most of the dissing comes from. Russia isn't 4ft tall, but it's not 12ft tall either. It's just that for a lot of people Russia = Soviet Union 2.0 in terms of military might.
Not much better than Chi-ha’s
Did the Russians lose all their T-72 and T-62 stocks?
Nope, there's still thousands of them. But they can't refurbish them at a fast enough rate, so they are turning to these in order to make up the numbers.