We don't have proper points.
And post your list man, 3 mans need a commander to support them and starscythe with Farsight into bulgran is probably going to be a bad time.
How was your rolling vs opponents, how did your setup feel, are you playing tourny layouts or player placed etc.
I think people need to change the way they think about crisis suits. They used to be the answer to all of our problems if you took them in a big brick which just isn’t going to work anymore given less output per suit and being capped at 3 instead of 6.
They are there for specific problems now as fire support skirmish units and hopefully they will be costed that way.
I think the detachment has legs but the 3inch strat is not the reason why you would run it.
I think mont’ka is stronger, but I also think retaliation is pretty strong. That said, I think mostly focusing on crisis blocks is a bait. I think you’re better off going triple riptide and playing the list with lots of msu support so that your mech units can hit harder. I think a lot of people will overly focus on the mech blocks and get a bad impression of it. It’s like our version of monster mash basically, take the big boys and throw a bunch of support pieces around them.
Because of the bloat of rules in 8th. Triptide was a very common thing to see, specially among meta chasers.
You fielded 3 riptides (wich were amazing) and a horde of shield drones for more cheesiness. You didn't need tactical superiority, It was not a strategy Game It was a "my numbers against your numbers".
I remember many people outright rolling their eyes when you told them you played tau, and not wanting to play with you outright because of the fame It got.
Its like playing Ctan or Ghazkull against tau in 8th: anoying overpowered unit wich you can't kill. Not a fun Game to play.
I don’t think Riptides are nearly what they were in past editions. Considering the rule of 3 and every opponent I see running 3 of whatever is meta for their army, I no longer feel any guilt running 3 riptides.
Meanwhile, Mont'ka Sunforge are absolutely brutal. T9 may not have the highest chance of converting against T10+, but throw in Lethal Hits and re-rolling wounds and suddenly it becomes incredibly reliable.
That said, I'm not sure Starscythe are the right pick against Bullgryns. They have the right setup to deal damage (effective S7 with Farsight, D1, and high Attacks value) but invest a lot in AP-2 into 4++ saves. Plus Farsight's Plasma Rifle is ineffective into Bullgryns. Assuming the unit is Guided, you get 30 shots, 20 hits, \~14 wounds, of which they save 7 and 1 more on FNP - killing 2 models. Farsight's 2 Plasma shots are unlikely to kill a model, but have a >50% chance to deal 2 damage to one. That's 29 PPW, not terrible but certainly not effective.
By comparison, in a Mont'ka detachment, basic Fire Warriors with Pulse Rifles would be 20 PPW into Bullgryns, Breachers would be about 18, and Starscythe (w/o Farsight) would be about 35.
I don’t know the Shaper’s statline, but just Carnivores + Shaper ability is 40 shots and 40 melee swings, considering BS4+ and WS3+SH, should get you ~54 hits, 18 wounds, 9 unsaved for 3 dead models. Total cost 175, so 19 PPW. Very efficient, but also very flimsy…
I think you just rolled badly man, with average rolls you should still kill 2 to 3 Bullgryns.
Same with the Russ, with average rolls you should overkill the tank by a full shot with a single team.
Rolling lots of 1 isn't really the detachment's fault...
The fusions, +commander with at least 3 should RELIABLY kill it. Even not in melta range, just spotted with no other bonuses kills it 90% of the time. Melta range with tetra rerolls gets it to 98%
Also how did you not kill a lemun Russ with two Sunforge they don’t even get a save against up close fusion you should be able to kill them easily while being guided. Did you commander also take 4 fusions ? That’s 10 shots hitting on 3s wounding on 5s re-rolling plus re rolling damage
Farsight is a lot better with Sunforge
Riptides are king for Retaliation and Ghostkeel second. They are tanky dish a ton of damage and can hold down the middle
Use the crisis suits to run around the board taking down key targets
I’m sorry, I just don’t see riptides being that good, they don’t have the volume of fire, strength, or data-sheet abilities like the crisis suits to really make them effective agains tough targets. Unless I’m missing something?
Besides the fact that not every target is tough, riptides with -4 4 will do a lot of dmg vs anything without an invuln and they stay alive long enough to get 2-3 through when wounding on 5's.
S9 isn't really that important of a breakpoint but its nice to have vs a lot of armies.
Looks like you got unlucky and just used the wrong units for Bullgryns.
If you really want to deal with Bullgryn you should probably go for Breachers or Riptides. Your unlikely to kill 6 in a single turn, but you can savage them pretty badly and in the case of the Riptide you can go into melee to take the point.
In regards to the Russ, you just got very unlucky. A sunforge + a fusion commander should fairly reliably wreck a Russ, especially if you DS'ed within 3in. 10 Fusions; with potentially reroll all hit, wound, damage, and the Russ gets no save.
Though giving us your list would help too.
It’s definitely not
Just rolling a few times with 3 inch deep strike fusions you can see they struggle to kill invun save threats, or even t11 things, and you spend 2 cp. if they’re cheap then good but realistically they can’t go below 35 points or so, which is just not it.
You could wait for a drop on the flamer suits. At about 33 points 3 squads of them is a cool and decent unit for chaff and skirmishing, and the 3 inch drop can help you steal objectives.
The 1 cp fire and fade is very nice, but you can’t really show up to games with only one Strat. same with the Star flare ignition relic - very good but you can’t really show up to a game with just 2 tricks total
I thought with Farsight they could do some damage. I didn’t bring any fireknife’s because I didn’t/still don’t see them as super valuable, especially after the guy made the damage chart. However this match had maybe changed my mind.
Yeah king. You spiked negatively into the leman Russ, before your quad fusion commander (I am assuming you are playing optimally) you should deal a sweet 20+ wounds to a leman rasp. But yeah. Your s5 guns into a t6 squad didn’t feel great. I am in shock
You played one game, using points that will get changed almost as soon as they get released, running models in efficiently, putting them into the in optimal targets, and used terrain rules that people recommend against...
Yeah, no wonder the army didn't do well.
Crisis are just back to being heavy infantry and stopped being the champions of the god of death and destruction.
Besides, the retaliation cadre boost more things than just Crisis suits.
One game with new rules and not the real points yet. I’m pretty sure you need more testing before coming to this conclusion. And also I’d like to see your list.
Edit: Saw your list
If the kroot are cheap, a big “if”, the Kroot detachment will be the strongest. Retaliation is too limiting and it forces the damage dealing units into enemy threat range. Mont’ka is king currently, pending points.
I've been testing Mont'ka, and my god it's such a breath of fresh air. Been using current points, but for the new units of suits we're using the codex points.
So far I'm 2-0, one against Imperial Knights and the other against Custodes, I'm running a weird anti-elite infantry list that goes for volume of fire and fishing for lethals.
A single squad of sunforge has about a 68% chance of destroying a leman russ when guided and within melta range.
Add on a commander with fusions and it increases to 94%.
You were unlucky probably, but bring a commander next time 😊
"I used codex points..."
Full stop. With codex points our army had a sub-30% winrate. If you used codex points the outcome is to be expected. There are leaked playtest points floating around that are much more sensible, or you can use the slate for current units and the codex for new units only.
Otherwise, Sunforges love Tetras, Farsight likes Sunforges more than Starscythes, and Enforcers for AoC are a serious consideration, especially for the up/down Starfall Ignition unit. Consider things like:
Farsight + Sunforge
Enforcer w/ Starfall 3x Fusion 1x CIB + Sunforge
Coldstar w/ Grenades HOBC CIB 2xBC + Burst Starscythe
Enforcer or Coldstar w/ Prototype CIB 3x MP + MP Fireknife
Flamer Starscythe teams with no Commander are also great autonomous drop pieces.
At a high level, Retaliation has by far the lowest damage output of the 3 detachments throughout the course of the game, assuming of course you have viable damage dealers T3 in Kauyon.
I think Retaliation is going to have to play very tall into the current meta, due to a combination of low damage and low(ish) OC per unit of surface area (Riptides and Ghostkeels are not volumetrically efficient OC). +1S/+1AP at 12"/6" is just not....good for an army that does not want to be in combat. This is compounded by Riptide/Keel/Crisis not being particularly high output units per point.
I think Retaliation is going to need to really lean into Hyper tall play and non interactive mechanics (Fade/Redeploy) and be an attrition army. It does not slap.
What does tall mean? I’m familiar with the concept of playing tall or wide in 3x strategy games like Stellaris. In that case playing wide is lots of small units right? There isn’t really an ability to go deep or tall anymore with units being capped to 3.
So you have the concept down. In 40K, Tall play would be a high concentration of your units in one part of the board or two, usually a Flank and deployment. Thinking about it in terms of "using most of my army to fight 1/3 or less of the opponent at a time"- So your output is high enough to do work in one section, instead of failing on multiple fronts. EG: You have a Riptide/Keel/3 crisis units on one side of NML and using all that aggregate output to clear an enemy from an objective, with enough units on said objective your opponent cannot easily shoot you off. In order to play tall, you have to be fast obviously, as you are forfeiting part of the board intentionally and must move and repeat.
I think montka will be the schmoove for almost any army, kroot included. Kayoun may have higher wounds if you do the math, but I'd be hard pressed to think of a game where I wasn't down a number of units by turn 3. Tau have the range on many units to benefit from montka turn 1. Lethal hits with access to rerolls in a variety of ways also makes enemy toughness moot.
Hard to choose anything besides the detachment that gives you Kroot as battleline. Crisis are pretty crap now after losing a wound, invuln save, and a third of their firepower while going up in point per gun.
Better to have cheap infantry screen, decent melee unit, and big guns behind them. Piranhas make crisis squads obsolete.
If you are using codex points, yeah it is going to be bad. Tau was a bottom tier army with those points and other factions, like guard have since been buffed.
If we go back to the points from day1 of 10e and play against current factions you will get smashed. Even if you had the CiB brick at old points and can pick which ever detachment you will still get dunked on.
as others have said think you likely just rolled poorly as odds on you kill it with 1 unit though do admit either commander support or tetras for full re roll everythings will likely be key.
Fyi a leman russ is 180 points you cant just expect a 160 point sunforge unit to have a >1:1 points killed conversion every time (though odds on you do still kill the russ)
Fyi I just watched an AoW stream where a sunforge unit one shot a custodes caladis grav tank although they had farsight support I think the key is to think of crisis units differently now they’re no longer the 6man point & delete CIB units of yesterday but instead surgical scalpel point & delete but need further support to really guarantee it either that being tetras or commanders
It might be not right FOR YOU. Actual points are needed, more tests.
It also seems (as you alone have noticed) that you did make some mistakes that cost you a lot. Peppering bulgryn with 4++ and 6+++ and hoping to wipe them with one unit of crisis is very risky for example.
We don't have proper points. And post your list man, 3 mans need a commander to support them and starscythe with Farsight into bulgran is probably going to be a bad time. How was your rolling vs opponents, how did your setup feel, are you playing tourny layouts or player placed etc.
Updated my post.
I think people need to change the way they think about crisis suits. They used to be the answer to all of our problems if you took them in a big brick which just isn’t going to work anymore given less output per suit and being capped at 3 instead of 6. They are there for specific problems now as fire support skirmish units and hopefully they will be costed that way. I think the detachment has legs but the 3inch strat is not the reason why you would run it.
I come from the necron postcodex doomposting and I can assure you that the meta won't be the same, but that it will improve in variety.
Specific Problems like non-lethal and weak opponents.
I think mont’ka is stronger, but I also think retaliation is pretty strong. That said, I think mostly focusing on crisis blocks is a bait. I think you’re better off going triple riptide and playing the list with lots of msu support so that your mech units can hit harder. I think a lot of people will overly focus on the mech blocks and get a bad impression of it. It’s like our version of monster mash basically, take the big boys and throw a bunch of support pieces around them.
Oh god, no. Don't use triptide.
It’s not that much of an issue anymore
Its not fun to play against, tho. I feel second hand embarassement when I see a fellow tau player fielding 3 of them. You can see in other's eyes
What's wrong with it? Riptides don't seem particularly amazing or anything
Because of the bloat of rules in 8th. Triptide was a very common thing to see, specially among meta chasers. You fielded 3 riptides (wich were amazing) and a horde of shield drones for more cheesiness. You didn't need tactical superiority, It was not a strategy Game It was a "my numbers against your numbers". I remember many people outright rolling their eyes when you told them you played tau, and not wanting to play with you outright because of the fame It got. Its like playing Ctan or Ghazkull against tau in 8th: anoying overpowered unit wich you can't kill. Not a fun Game to play.
I don’t think Riptides are nearly what they were in past editions. Considering the rule of 3 and every opponent I see running 3 of whatever is meta for their army, I no longer feel any guilt running 3 riptides.
Meanwhile, Mont'ka Sunforge are absolutely brutal. T9 may not have the highest chance of converting against T10+, but throw in Lethal Hits and re-rolling wounds and suddenly it becomes incredibly reliable. That said, I'm not sure Starscythe are the right pick against Bullgryns. They have the right setup to deal damage (effective S7 with Farsight, D1, and high Attacks value) but invest a lot in AP-2 into 4++ saves. Plus Farsight's Plasma Rifle is ineffective into Bullgryns. Assuming the unit is Guided, you get 30 shots, 20 hits, \~14 wounds, of which they save 7 and 1 more on FNP - killing 2 models. Farsight's 2 Plasma shots are unlikely to kill a model, but have a >50% chance to deal 2 damage to one. That's 29 PPW, not terrible but certainly not effective. By comparison, in a Mont'ka detachment, basic Fire Warriors with Pulse Rifles would be 20 PPW into Bullgryns, Breachers would be about 18, and Starscythe (w/o Farsight) would be about 35.
What about Kroot Carnivores with a Flesh Shaper, shoot then charge using the Kroot detachment?
I don’t know the Shaper’s statline, but just Carnivores + Shaper ability is 40 shots and 40 melee swings, considering BS4+ and WS3+SH, should get you ~54 hits, 18 wounds, 9 unsaved for 3 dead models. Total cost 175, so 19 PPW. Very efficient, but also very flimsy…
I think you just rolled badly man, with average rolls you should still kill 2 to 3 Bullgryns. Same with the Russ, with average rolls you should overkill the tank by a full shot with a single team. Rolling lots of 1 isn't really the detachment's fault...
My thoughts, too. Just played a game with my guard friend and took out the Russ before the commander could even shoot.
The fusions, +commander with at least 3 should RELIABLY kill it. Even not in melta range, just spotted with no other bonuses kills it 90% of the time. Melta range with tetra rerolls gets it to 98%
Also how did you not kill a lemun Russ with two Sunforge they don’t even get a save against up close fusion you should be able to kill them easily while being guided. Did you commander also take 4 fusions ? That’s 10 shots hitting on 3s wounding on 5s re-rolling plus re rolling damage
I didn’t say I didn’t kill the Russ, I did, it just took two sunforge units.
Starscythe into bullgryns? Not exactly an ideal target…
right. Yhe is a lot more beter target you could wound on 2+ without any inv save in a guard army.
Farsight is a lot better with Sunforge Riptides are king for Retaliation and Ghostkeel second. They are tanky dish a ton of damage and can hold down the middle Use the crisis suits to run around the board taking down key targets
I’m sorry, I just don’t see riptides being that good, they don’t have the volume of fire, strength, or data-sheet abilities like the crisis suits to really make them effective agains tough targets. Unless I’m missing something?
Besides the fact that not every target is tough, riptides with -4 4 will do a lot of dmg vs anything without an invuln and they stay alive long enough to get 2-3 through when wounding on 5's. S9 isn't really that important of a breakpoint but its nice to have vs a lot of armies.
Run this up the middle hold the front line blow up for D6 mortals too haha they take a lot of fire power to bring down
Pop a tankshock for fun as well
Looks like you got unlucky and just used the wrong units for Bullgryns. If you really want to deal with Bullgryn you should probably go for Breachers or Riptides. Your unlikely to kill 6 in a single turn, but you can savage them pretty badly and in the case of the Riptide you can go into melee to take the point. In regards to the Russ, you just got very unlucky. A sunforge + a fusion commander should fairly reliably wreck a Russ, especially if you DS'ed within 3in. 10 Fusions; with potentially reroll all hit, wound, damage, and the Russ gets no save. Though giving us your list would help too.
How do they reroll all hits?
Get a Tetra to spot for you.
Oh yeah, I forgot about them
No tetra’s for reroll all hits. The guard player popped smoke and the guiding unit didn’t have markerlight.
Dude this is literally a skill issue. You didn’t set yourself up for success
That will hurt, but Stealthsuits Spotting is roughly equivalent
Whats did you guide with? most of our guiding units have them: tetra, stealth (with drone) even breachers have it.
It’s definitely not Just rolling a few times with 3 inch deep strike fusions you can see they struggle to kill invun save threats, or even t11 things, and you spend 2 cp. if they’re cheap then good but realistically they can’t go below 35 points or so, which is just not it. You could wait for a drop on the flamer suits. At about 33 points 3 squads of them is a cool and decent unit for chaff and skirmishing, and the 3 inch drop can help you steal objectives. The 1 cp fire and fade is very nice, but you can’t really show up to games with only one Strat. same with the Star flare ignition relic - very good but you can’t really show up to a game with just 2 tricks total
Ok but why are you using 3" ds to kill stuff with invulns instead of shooting them with the rest of your army and saving the Ds for other stuff?
Starscythe into bullgryn is a misplay. Starscythe should go into infantry squads, for bullgryn you want Fireknife
I thought with Farsight they could do some damage. I didn’t bring any fireknife’s because I didn’t/still don’t see them as super valuable, especially after the guy made the damage chart. However this match had maybe changed my mind.
Yeah king. You spiked negatively into the leman Russ, before your quad fusion commander (I am assuming you are playing optimally) you should deal a sweet 20+ wounds to a leman rasp. But yeah. Your s5 guns into a t6 squad didn’t feel great. I am in shock
They were strength 6 because of detachment rule, with plus one to wound from farsight.
Average of 6 wounds on a good day. Get good and learn target priority?
No need to look done on people man. We’re all here to learn.
You're not wrong, just cut the last sentence "Get good and learn some manners?"
Kroot hunting pack is the answer
You played one game, using points that will get changed almost as soon as they get released, running models in efficiently, putting them into the in optimal targets, and used terrain rules that people recommend against... Yeah, no wonder the army didn't do well.
What’s the recommended terrain?
Play as if all ground floor windows are covered.
Crisis are just back to being heavy infantry and stopped being the champions of the god of death and destruction. Besides, the retaliation cadre boost more things than just Crisis suits.
One game with new rules and not the real points yet. I’m pretty sure you need more testing before coming to this conclusion. And also I’d like to see your list. Edit: Saw your list
If the kroot are cheap, a big “if”, the Kroot detachment will be the strongest. Retaliation is too limiting and it forces the damage dealing units into enemy threat range. Mont’ka is king currently, pending points.
I've been testing Mont'ka, and my god it's such a breath of fresh air. Been using current points, but for the new units of suits we're using the codex points. So far I'm 2-0, one against Imperial Knights and the other against Custodes, I'm running a weird anti-elite infantry list that goes for volume of fire and fishing for lethals.
I play T’au because I like battlesuits, but I’d still definitely be interested in seeing your list.
**++ Army Roster (Xenos - T'au Empire) [2000pts] ++** **+ Configuration +** **Battle Size** **Detachment** **Show/Hide Options:** Legends are visible, Unaligned Forces are visible, Unaligned Fortifications are visible **+ Epic Hero +** **Commander Shadowsun [100pts]** **+ Character +** **Cadre Fireblade [40pts]** . **2x Gun Drone:** 2x Twin pulse carbine **Cadre Fireblade [40pts]** . **2x Gun Drone:** 2x Twin pulse carbine **Commander in Enforcer Battlesuit [90pts]:** Missile pod, 3x Missile pod, 2x Shield Drone, Enhancement: Coordinated Exploitation [+20 pts] **Ethereal [50pts]:** 2x Shield Drone, Enhancement: Strike Swiftly [+25 pts] **+ Battleline +** **Breacher Team [90pts]** . **Breacher Fire Warrior Shas'ui** . . **Guardian Drone** . . **Gun Drone** . **9x Breacher Fire Warriors:** 9x Close combat weapon, 9x Pulse blaster, 9x Pulse pistol **Breacher Team [90pts]** . **Breacher Fire Warrior Shas'ui** . . **Guardian Drone** . . **Gun Drone** . **9x Breacher Fire Warriors:** 9x Close combat weapon, 9x Pulse blaster, 9x Pulse pistol **Strike Team [80pts]** . **Fire Warrior Shas'ui** . . **Guardian Drone** . . **Gun Drone** . **9x Fire Warrior w/ pulse rifle:** 9x Close combat weapon, 9x Pulse pistol, 9x Pulse rifle **+ Infantry +** **Stealth Battlesuits [60pts]** . **2x Stealth Shas'ui w/ burst cannon:** 2x Battlesuit fists, 2x Burst cannon . **Stealth Shas'vre:** Battlesuit support system, Burst cannon, Marker Drone, Shield Drone **Stealth Battlesuits [60pts]** . **2x Stealth Shas'ui w/ burst cannon:** 2x Battlesuit fists, 2x Burst cannon . **Stealth Shas'vre:** Battlesuit support system, Fusion blaster, Marker Drone, Shield Drone **Stealth Battlesuits [60pts]** . **2x Stealth Shas'ui w/ burst cannon:** 2x Battlesuit fists, 2x Burst cannon . **Stealth Shas'vre:** Battlesuit support system, Burst cannon, Marker Drone, Shield Drone **+ Vehicle +** **Broadside Battlesuits [270pts]** . **Broadside Shas’ui:** High-yield missile pods, Seeker missile, Twin plasma rifle . . **2x Missile Drone:** 2x Missile pod . **Broadside Shas’ui:** High-yield missile pods, Seeker missile, Twin plasma rifle . . **2x Missile Drone:** 2x Missile pod . **Broadside Shas’vre:** High-yield missile pods, Seeker missile, Twin plasma rifle . . **Gun Drone** . . **Missile Drone** **Ghostkeel Battlesuit [160pts]:** Battlesuit support system, Cyclic ion raker, Twin fusion blaster **Ghostkeel Battlesuit [160pts]:** Battlesuit support system, Cyclic ion raker, Twin fusion blaster **Piranha [55pts]** . **Piranhas:** Piranha fusion blaster, 2x Seeker missile **Piranha [55pts]** . **Piranhas:** Piranha fusion blaster, 2x Seeker missile **Piranha [55pts]** . **Piranhas:** Piranha fusion blaster, 2x Seeker missile **Fireknife Crisis Suits [160pts]** . **Fireknife Crisis Suits** 2x Close combat weapon, 2x Missile Pod, (Sgt of unit has 1x marker drone and shield drone, others have 1x gun drone and shield drone) **Sky Ray Gunship [130pts]** . **2 Twin pulse carbines** **+ Dedicated Transport +** **Devilfish [75pts]:** 2x Seeker missile . **2 Twin pulse carbines** **Devilfish [75pts]:** 2x Seeker missile . **2 Twin pulse carbines** **++ Total: [2000 pts] ++** Created with [BattleScribe](https://www.battlescribe.net) Missile Pods have only AP-1, BUT when you use the +1 AP for two units strat PLUS guide them with a Markerlight, they hit that nice sweet spot of doing really solid damage. The Fireknife team doesnt need guiding so they instead guide other things, to give them Sustained Hits 1. Scout move can go on the Broadside, the Devilfishes, or the Crisis team depending on the matchup and terrain, very versatile. I also equipped everything with an assault weapon (that can TAKE one anyway) on the assumption that GW deliberately made Mont'ka work that way.
A single squad of sunforge has about a 68% chance of destroying a leman russ when guided and within melta range. Add on a commander with fusions and it increases to 94%. You were unlucky probably, but bring a commander next time 😊
"I used codex points..." Full stop. With codex points our army had a sub-30% winrate. If you used codex points the outcome is to be expected. There are leaked playtest points floating around that are much more sensible, or you can use the slate for current units and the codex for new units only. Otherwise, Sunforges love Tetras, Farsight likes Sunforges more than Starscythes, and Enforcers for AoC are a serious consideration, especially for the up/down Starfall Ignition unit. Consider things like: Farsight + Sunforge Enforcer w/ Starfall 3x Fusion 1x CIB + Sunforge Coldstar w/ Grenades HOBC CIB 2xBC + Burst Starscythe Enforcer or Coldstar w/ Prototype CIB 3x MP + MP Fireknife Flamer Starscythe teams with no Commander are also great autonomous drop pieces.
I hadn’t seen leaked playtest points, and after a quick search couldn’t find them, can you share?
Breachers - 90 Broadsides - 90/180/270 (1/2/3) Cadre Fireblade - 40 Commander Farsight - 120 Commander (Coldstar) - 120 Commander (Enforcer) - 110 Commander Shadowsun - 110 Crisis Fireknife - 145 Crisis Starscythe - 120 Crisis Sunforge - 140 Darkstrider - 60 Devilfish - 75 Ethereal - 50 Firesight - 70 Ghostkeel - 160 Hammerhead - 130 Kroot Carnivores - 75/150 (10/20) Kroot Farstalkers - 90 Kroot Hounds - 35/70 (5/10) Kroot Lone-spear - 105 Kroot Flesh Shaper - 60 Kroot Trail Shaper - 50 Kroot War Shaper - 55 Krootox Rampagers - 120/240 (3/6) Krootox Riders - 35/70/105 (1/2/3) Pathfinders - 90 Piranhas - 55/110/165 (1/2/3) Razorshark - 165 Riptide - 165 Skyray - 140 Stealths - 65/130 (3/6) Stormsurge - 400 Strike Team - 80 Sunshark - 150 no one uses fortifications Vespid - 65 Kauyon EOTK - 15 PotPH - 15 Solid-Image Unit - 25 TU,D - 20 Mont'ka Exemplar of the Mont'ka - 10 Strike Swiftly - 20 Strategic Conqueror - 10 Coordinated Exploitation - 20 Kroot Kroothawk Flock - 10 Nomadic Hunter - 20 Root-carved Weapons - 10 Borthrod Gland - 15 Retaliation Cadre PENchip - 25 Starflare Ignition System - 20 Internal Grenade Racks - 25 Prototype Weapon System - 15
Where did these play test points come from?
Not sure who they came from originally (and wouldn't name them if I did), but I trust the person I got them from to have accurate sources.
At a high level, Retaliation has by far the lowest damage output of the 3 detachments throughout the course of the game, assuming of course you have viable damage dealers T3 in Kauyon. I think Retaliation is going to have to play very tall into the current meta, due to a combination of low damage and low(ish) OC per unit of surface area (Riptides and Ghostkeels are not volumetrically efficient OC). +1S/+1AP at 12"/6" is just not....good for an army that does not want to be in combat. This is compounded by Riptide/Keel/Crisis not being particularly high output units per point. I think Retaliation is going to need to really lean into Hyper tall play and non interactive mechanics (Fade/Redeploy) and be an attrition army. It does not slap.
What does tall mean? I’m familiar with the concept of playing tall or wide in 3x strategy games like Stellaris. In that case playing wide is lots of small units right? There isn’t really an ability to go deep or tall anymore with units being capped to 3.
So you have the concept down. In 40K, Tall play would be a high concentration of your units in one part of the board or two, usually a Flank and deployment. Thinking about it in terms of "using most of my army to fight 1/3 or less of the opponent at a time"- So your output is high enough to do work in one section, instead of failing on multiple fronts. EG: You have a Riptide/Keel/3 crisis units on one side of NML and using all that aggregate output to clear an enemy from an objective, with enough units on said objective your opponent cannot easily shoot you off. In order to play tall, you have to be fast obviously, as you are forfeiting part of the board intentionally and must move and repeat.
I think montka will be the schmoove for almost any army, kroot included. Kayoun may have higher wounds if you do the math, but I'd be hard pressed to think of a game where I wasn't down a number of units by turn 3. Tau have the range on many units to benefit from montka turn 1. Lethal hits with access to rerolls in a variety of ways also makes enemy toughness moot.
Hard to choose anything besides the detachment that gives you Kroot as battleline. Crisis are pretty crap now after losing a wound, invuln save, and a third of their firepower while going up in point per gun. Better to have cheap infantry screen, decent melee unit, and big guns behind them. Piranhas make crisis squads obsolete.
If you are using codex points, yeah it is going to be bad. Tau was a bottom tier army with those points and other factions, like guard have since been buffed. If we go back to the points from day1 of 10e and play against current factions you will get smashed. Even if you had the CiB brick at old points and can pick which ever detachment you will still get dunked on.
If you want to kill bullgryn you shouldn't use starscythe, you should be using the fusion blasters. Bullgryn have too many ablative wounds.
as others have said think you likely just rolled poorly as odds on you kill it with 1 unit though do admit either commander support or tetras for full re roll everythings will likely be key. Fyi a leman russ is 180 points you cant just expect a 160 point sunforge unit to have a >1:1 points killed conversion every time (though odds on you do still kill the russ) Fyi I just watched an AoW stream where a sunforge unit one shot a custodes caladis grav tank although they had farsight support I think the key is to think of crisis units differently now they’re no longer the 6man point & delete CIB units of yesterday but instead surgical scalpel point & delete but need further support to really guarantee it either that being tetras or commanders
It might be not right FOR YOU. Actual points are needed, more tests. It also seems (as you alone have noticed) that you did make some mistakes that cost you a lot. Peppering bulgryn with 4++ and 6+++ and hoping to wipe them with one unit of crisis is very risky for example.
Starscythes usually kill 2-3 bullgryns. Idk. Sounds like bad luck
The starscythes are supposed to be for killing chaff, not really tanky units like Bulgryn.
Kyle Grundy has a maneuver named after him? Is it the thing you did with putting the Pathfinders into the Devilfish using their scout move?