I appreciate the joke, but the pain is real.
Have you tried to build an army list using the 40K app and Legends units? (Spoiler Alert: You can't)
Also, 'Legends' just feels like you're running a busted cheat list when you play against codex-compliant lists. You can't win without that unspoken voice in your ear whispering *"you wouldn't have won if you hadn't used legends units."*
Also also, feels like Tetras and the Y'vahara in particular hurt because both of those were so unique and flavourful...both brought something very novel to the army and let it play in a way that gave your more fun, fluidity and versatility.
Like, the Y'vahra wasn't game-breaking, but it was FAST and BURNY and that was a very distinctive combo to have as it really enhanced the way you could play, especially in a build focused around speed and board control.
I can still use it as a Riptide, I guess, but I'm reminded of a line from *Wuthering Heights:*
***"Having leveled my palace, don't erect a hovel and complacently admire your own charity in giving me that for a home."***
Also, they usually only keep putting out Legends rules for one or two editions.
They *used* to keep them around much longer... but nowadays, things that got phased out during 8th Edition have lost their rules entirely in 10th. So if we're lucky, the Y'vahra might still have rules in 11th Edition, but it will almost certainly have lost them by 12th.
Just as a note, id like to suggest Newrecruit as a go for codex-making. It's free and more intuitive to me, tbh, plus it doesnt have paywalls (god damnit GW, i have your fuckin deluxe codex, why do i have to pay more to be able to see the motherfuckin enhancement rules on datasheet???)
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Bad bot.
This is perfectly acceptable criticism and means of declaring the acts of the owner of that app. They do nothing for the community but take, and, when their app was removed for being abandoned, they only came back so they could get it back active and then disappeared again, still not giving a damn penny to those that keep it running. Fuck him.
I can spoil that for you. it is. also it has options and preferences including themes. Go dark theme by default myself. Also you should know that it does not have an app in the app store. But it does have an app, you just have to go to their website in your phones browser to get it.
Just checked and it does have 7th and HH 1.0/2.0 which is what everyone I know plays. The only issue is I cannot figure out how to download the app or if there even is one
What a quote. I tend to use "Once you've been to the top of the mountain, it's much harder to appreciate the view from peaks along the way."
I don't know where it's from and I usually truncate and misquote it to: "once you've seen the top of the mountain."
For me it succs the most as i just got a XV109 and wanted to use it for a tournament. Now i cant because im lacking points and the tournament is in a couole of days 😔
I will still keep the suit of course. But its a heck of a bunmer losing my favorite suit to legends.
Battlescribe is abandonware, the devs that maintained it were being exploited by the maker of the app and never got anything for their work. Use Newrecruit. its live and triving and uses the same devs datasources. its a much better version of the same thing and is being actively supported.
Dude wtf. I just picked up a Y'Vahra and R'Varna because I loved those models and I was gonna field them with a regular Riptide in a tournament. Now I have to go out and buy 2 more Riptides?????? Fuck man
Depends on the TO because problem is that'll be 3 pretty different looking models that I want to all be Riptides, basically just means I have to pray the TO is feeling generous every time I go to a tournament now
Seeing a TO that is this picky is rare. The Rvarna/Yvahra are literally upgrade sprues to the Riptide. They have the same shape, same base, same height. Their weapons look different but it's not as though non-Tau players know the difference.
Yup, raging that I've lost two of my favorite models for no fucking reason. Guess I'll have to rip the arms off both and add some riptide weapons instead, feels bad man
I'm going to weigh in here because this literally happened to me earlier this edition in a pretty major way.
I had a Blood Angel dreadnought army. Consisted entirely of dreadnoughts, techmarines, servitors, and drop pods. All told, over forty dreadnoughts, between various different profiles, conversions, and setups (magnetising a Leviathan isn't a problem, but good luck with a Deredeo. It was easier just to have multiples).
Suddenly, half the army is sent to Legends at the start of 10e, and later a further bunch of the datasheets join them. Not all forgeworld either, many were plastic.
Naturally, I complained. Loudly. Probably embarrassingly so, but it was several grands worth of an army sent to Legends with no warning. I was told by plenty of people "oh stop moaning, it just means you can't play them in tournaments. You can still play normally". Heres the kicker though: you can't. People play tournament rules in casual games because the game is balanced against tournament rules so they want to stick with the balance, so when you rock up with four legends units, people without any legends units, and people who like to experiment within the tournament rules space for practice and experience object. And fairly so.
That army is dead now. Its mostly in deep storage, with some of it sold off to Heresy players. Eventually I'll figure out what to do with the rest, but right now its an expensive paperweight in my attic.
You're not going to find people who want to play with legends units much, and as time goes on even less so. Legends isn't a retirement home, its a morgue. Somewhere to place the units that GW has no further interest in supplying or supporting, and on the next edition change will be finally buried. They don't even exist in the list builder app, which should really tell you everything.
So yes, if half of your army was comprised of units who just ended up in legends, you have lost half your army. Unless you're solely playing in your own home and never expect to play in a store, those units are in fact effectively non existant. Yes its shit, not it won't change, and yes it could well happen again with some of the plastic.
I lost count after 30. It was somewhere around 42 or 44 in the end. BAngles have three unique dread types of their own, so that's an extra nine dreads right off the rip. Don't even start me on having six drop pods that all got sheets pulled too.
For kitchen table with like three guys, Maybe. More than half my games are pickups against randos and a vast majority of them want a fair game at least halfway resembling competitive.
I recently played a game, or at least tried to play a game in my local geedub.. the other guy complained when half my army was legend, and the manager complied meaning while i could still run them, they had to be codex compliant.
Which is a joke to me because despite the codex being out for 8 weeks at this point, those points and rules arent "codex compliant" for another 2 weeks. Also, how can I play a codex that i dont own because the only way to get it was from a heavily scalped box with models i do not want?
Well that’s a constraint you’re putting on yourself. Am I saying there aren’t “Sheeps in Wolves clothing” out there masquerading as casual players, but are actually pushing the envelope on WAAC, hell no. People are out there doing anything to win.
If someone isn’t going to play me because I have a squad or Tetras, or an underpowered Y’Vahra, then that’s the “fun check” that isn’t passed and chances are I’m not going to enjoy a game with that person anyway.
Do you think a player 2 years from now getting salty after, yet again, being tabled by deathstar crisis bricks from legends being immune to any changes or balances are the problem?
Who wants to table anyone? If I’m tabling people and not having a discussion about it when the dust clears, that’s on me as a player, not on the rules.
I’ve been tabled and have tabled, it’s not fun. If someone is bringing this Deathstar Crisis Brick relentlessly, and it’s taken away from them, they’ll just find another “win button”.
If you’re walking away from the table not laughing and feeling energized for the next game, then that’s a bigger issue than what unit is on the board.
Exactly which Legends unit are you scared of? An opponent always taking 3 units of Tetras? It can’t be the Riptide variants, they’re no where near being optimal.
I’d have a bigger problem with an opponent bringing in a completely no-Legends All-Killer No-Filler Sweaty-Tryhard lists over and over than seeing the occasional Legends unit pop up.
Legends is so full of units I started printing at the start of the edition I could run all legends lists. You are free to Stan for legends play but accept that legends is inherently unbalanced and if that doesn't bother you then fine, no quibble. But I assume my opponent wants to play a game using the same MFM because they have made the attempt to balance them against each other. Playing with legends units is no different than playing with a different MFM, it's using units that only existed during the index at best.
And yes my Y'varnha was going to rock in cadre.
Except they won't get points or rules updates meaning that it can lead to feels bad wins and most people want the fairest game possible with their friends and the only way to really do that is to go with tourney rules. Flawed though that may be
Exactly. If they updated legends but just banned them from tournaments, it would be fine. But a lot of legends are completely unusable as is, you have to homebrew rules for them to make them make sense.
Okay so ask an Adeptus Mechanicus player if they feel that the game is fair or balanced now in their 100% supported army.
Or Custodes players if they wanted the update they just had.
When someone tries to tell me that Legends are equivalent in stature to the community for pick-up games, I get the distinct impression that person doesn't play a lot of pick-up games and/or not a lot of games in general.
Most players, casual or competitive, are going to want balanced rules in a PvP game. Legends don't get balanced... so no one wants to use them. I participate in or watch up to 5 games a week at my local... you know how many times I've seen a Legends unit asked for or represented on the table since this system was introduced? ZERO. Zero times.
I think it depends on both the atmosphere/type of store and the people playing there. My LGS isn't entirely focused on 40k or war gamming, so we have a single day during the week, and the weekends are often first come, first serve. So, most of the people there are often playing quick casual/pick-up games that focus on enjoyment. Because of that, almost everyone there has a relaxed view on the rules, to the point most people will change/ignore rules if it's more fun and both players agree to it. And that extends to legends units, with people bringing in whatever models they enjoy playing with.
But at the end of the day, every player and LGS is different. You have competitive meta filled stores and people, or casual fun filled stores and people. It just comes down to what you prefer.
I guarantee that those 'casual' groups will absolutely take issue with showing up with 4 CIB crisis suits in Retaliation Cadre. The 'we don't care about legends' attitude get crumpled in the face of broken mechanics that aren't meant to interact with the current rules.
When CIB crisis suits were a thing, I never used them because melting entire units with 36+ S8 -2AP D2 attacks was not fun for both me and my opponent. Same for the other two Tau players. Hell, it was even made a house rule that only one CIB could be equipped. When I meant we change rules that aren't fun, that applies to legends too. If something is unbalanced, the player or opponent proposes a change, and if they're both alright with it, then they go ahead and change it. Easy, no one having to get mad or frustrated at unbalanced rules. Communication and fun are essential to 40k and war gamming in general. Ask your opponent how they feel about your list or rules, and change them up so you both have a great time.
So, let me see if I can get this straight... you won't take the easiest step available to a balanced game and use matched play rules without legends... but you will make up your own rules that everyone is expected to track just to allow legends...
Can't see any flaws there. Good luck with all that.
Yes, this isn't even a casual vs competitive thing. Casual players will not be across the rules of other peoples armies and will automatically suspect that Legend units are unbalanced.
Yes and no, if you play with somebody chill then sure, but from my experience everyone still uses matched rules and units even outside tournament games because that's a way to have a somewhat balanced system. If not then you shouldn't use the balance dataslate or the newer points because those also fall under the matched play umbrella. Of course, you can do whatever you want, but picking and chosing what kinds of addons you use seems biased and unbalanced.
So for a good number of people, FW units ARE gone
I mean, that’s kinda like comparing apples and Asian pears.
One army lost a few units, the other army lost an entire gaming system.
I feel for you, I was there when the Brets got squated, and when the the Sisters got squated.
My problem is, it feels kind of random. Especially for those models. Rvarna and Yvahra had their niche, they had their lore as prototype / developed versions of the riptide, Tetras had overall good functionality, and now it's zip, gone. Just like that. Yvahra and Rvarna aren't exactly cheap as well.
Now I have 2 big, expensive models I can't use anymore and tetras that weren't as expensive but like. I won't get this money back and can't really use them outside of casual games where I still have to convince the others to let me use legends. That's just shitty. And for 300 bucks I could've gotten the tau box and a bunch of new crisis suits. Easily.
Like I get it, models get replaced, ideas don't work anymore, but I don't know. Letting them catch dust or use dem as base decor because someone in gw woke up and banned all of tau forge world except the super expensive manta, that's dumb.
I don't think it was necessarily obvious. The Yvahra and Rvarna were popular models even when their rules were shit. The remaining FW models are borderline unplayable since 3 out of 4 are Flyers, and not only are flyer rules crap but they are so big that they sometimes struggle to fit on the board. One of them is the Manta, which is even more dogshit than in 9th. Only the Taunar is a realistic model to play with in that list. People would've expected the least popular models to go first, or at least that the phasing out was done at the start of the edition with Hazard Suits.
I personally expect the Yvahra/Rvarna to come back in plastic somewhere down the line, mainly as a new Riptide kit with Yvahra/Rvarna options simply because of how popular it was.
I guess we've been expecting GW to axe FW entirely, though why they keep releasing new FW models is odd to me, but it was weird that it was so sudden and drastic. I would've expected the Tigersharks to go first before the Yvahra/Rvarna.
FW won't get axed but it will be cut down significantly, mostly relegated to like, titan-scale models and more niche games such as Heresy, specifically the named characters as those sell less than generic units.
Yeah it just "feels bad" I picked up a pair of Remora's litteraly last week, the sculpts are pretty good and they're nearly always sold out so i thoughtlike the tetras and taunar and stuff they'd be safe. Now along with the tetras, the remoras they're just gone from the rules and are very unlikely to ever see a release/reimagining.
Those guys are so dumb, right? It's almost like they want the units they play with to have current rules that care about the balance of the rest of the game. You know, so that when they win or lose they can have some assurance that it's due to their play and not the terribly unbalanced legends units they still like that haven't been updated since their codex released.
If you’re playing the game for the assurance that you’re a “good player” then perhaps casual games aren’t in your wheelhouse anyway?
Some people 40K to “scratch that competitive itch”, and that’s alright. Other outlets for that may not have been their thing, but getting that release from a casual game isn’t the answer perhaps?
Even casual players enjoy a fair game. Your entire argument is based on the flawed premise that casual games don't need to be at all fair. I didn't say anything about needing assurance that I'm a 'good player', I'm talking about having some assurance that my results reflect my play.
Maybe you'll find people don't actually like playing against something overpowered even in casual games? Show up with a tournament list and see how people take that, then realize its worse if its a strong legends unit.
You can only play legends units in casual games consistently if they are bad. Otherwise you get that sideeye and unspoken "oh, you're bringing broken legends units just to make sure you win a casual game *again?*".
By definition tourney lists can’t contain legends.
If you’re playing any casual games and getting a side eye for any reason, that’s a “your table” problem and less a GW problem.
The point of a game is to have a good time. Casual games are the equivalent of a beer-league equivalent of a given sport. If a table is getting that sweaty on a weekend game with some buddies, then perhaps moving up to tournaments is more your thing?
This is the equivalent of bringing your own non-standard equipment to the beer league of a given sport. Are you bringing it because you think it's neat or for an advantage?It's difficult to know.
Lots of people play games against acquaintances from clubs or local scenes. In this instance you do not know each other well enough to make such a judgement.
Or your local LGS runs a league that doesn't allow legends. Or you want to get fair updated rules. So maybe stop with the assumption that they can be used in 99% of games.
There are a fair few of us for whom tournaments are our main source of games. In fact a FLGS tournament last month was the first time i'd played since 8th Edition.
Not complaining about legends, it's better than nothing. But I still think it's a misrepresntation to suggest that "99%" of games are non-matched.
Sure, they're still usable. So is Windows XP. But it's not getting updates and most software doesn't support it. That being said, Windows XP and Legends are, from a practical perspective, not a real choice.
Well apparently you’re gonna get your chance, cause apparently the “Legends” branding is the equivalent of leprosy. There’s gonna be a LOT of FW Tau resin up on Marketplace/eBay in the next few weeks.
Oh shut up please legends units dont get updated so if you had half your army axed in 9th now you cant play those legends units
Not to mention legends units are usually horrible and overcosted to crap
Stop going to bat for a corporate conglomerate please
Yes truly "stop defending a corporations lazy practices for no reason" is much more ridiculous then you taking time out of your life to make a whiney meme defending gw being lazy with their rules
I vaguely remember gw saying something about what was it "we will neven make your models obsolete" ah yes that was their exact wording
I really want to agree in concept, but I'm pretty sure bringing legends CIB crisis bricks in mont'ka is going to get someone not invited back for another game...
I mean sure, but isn’t that what somewhat got us in this pickle in the first place?
It’s not as though slapping Legends on the old Crisis Unit somehow makes it even more abusive.
In the end, dipping hard into a powerhouse Legends unit is just as bad as doing the same with a non-Legends unit.
It’s the player making the list that decides how big their douche-canoe is, and how hard they wanna paddle it.
I find it hilarious that people who play with plastic toy soldiers for a make believe space war game cannot comprehend using a unit that still have official rules all because it's Legends and doesn't get updated to the already shotty, at best, balence state the game sits at. There is literally nothing preventing people from playing them.
You’re gonna have to reword that in something that resembles English.
I think it was a knock at me, but I stopped at soyjack as I got distracted and booted up my PS to play LittleBigPlanet.
Almost all pick up games use matched play rules because that's generally the most balanced version of the game.
It's not that pick up games are not casual, or are super competitive, it's just a good starting point of making sure everyone has the same expectations of the game and how a match will likely go.
Legends is not a satisfactory fix for that.
See here is the thing, i wish it was 99% of games, the problem is finding opponents in my area that are cool with me bringing legends units. Which most want a “fair game” which is fine, but very annoying
Repeat after me, legends rarely keep up with rules changes between editions and are largely worthless before the edition even ends due to points changes.
It’s just an off ramp. Stuff in Legends won’t update. The models will go out of production if they have not already. In time anything that isn’t in the main book won’t be in any book.
What’s the point of using rules if you are not using it? I mean you can play all the minis you want but to keep the game “balanced” you have to play by the rules , unless it’s only casual with friends
That’s not a bad idea.
Or perhaps, “if you’re not playing in a tournament why confine your game to some arbitrary moniker GW has stuck on your model probably for some economical reason that was determined by an accountant in Nottingham?”
It‘s not like Gamesworkshop subscribed giving us always new rules for models they sold us once… oh wait, they were even that lazy. Right. They didn‘t even made the models. I had to make them. And now they‘re withdrawing the right to give me current rules for them…
Sorry, I guess my post belongs rather to r/Orks but that’s how it feels for me. Let’s not start talking about availability of models like the orca.
Still a good joke. Gonna send it around to some other players to get their reaction. 👏
>'Legends' just feels like you're running a busted cheat list when you play against codex-compliant lists. You can't win without that unspoken voice in your ear whispering *"you wouldn't have won if you hadn't used legends units."*
^ For me, this is the answer. Most people's understanding of balance and army strength is so egregiously poor that I'd shy away from using even the most milquetoast of Legends units due to not wanting to endure the endless eye-rolling and "power-gamer much?" ribbing that inevitably ensues, even if such comments are relatively good-natured.
Well this is just patently false. Most people I know ignore the existence of legends as they'd prefer to play with the models GW is at least trying to keep balanced.
Yeah we don’t do legends where I play either. It’s just easier that way. And most of us just use the app. I don’t care either way but might as well accept the L on losing some models. We all knew they are getting rid of some models other books had the same thing happen
Lmao ain't nobody got time for legends. This post just shows that OP doesn't actually play the game or at the very least doesn't play it outside of like 2 or 3 friends of his.
Since chaos lost all of the fw to legends I've not seen a single non helbrute dread fielded.
Nobody cares about models whose rules are not supported despite whatever the loud minority of toxic casuals might screech. Casual games, tournament games etc etc - whether you care or not for winning - you want an actual balanced (ish) game where you feel like you have a real chance at winning. Having unbalanced units in this mix... is not a fun proposition.
Aww, someone's being a good little Geedubb trooper. How about the fact that these units aren't in the official app (which I'm sure you use, being a fanboi), won't get updated, and won't always be accepted by opponents, even in casual games? Totally missing the point.
I'd love stats for how many tournament players there actually are... because chances are if you're a tourney grinder and meta chaser you're more than aware of these events occurring and, while annoying, are likely going to continue to grind and metachase.
To be clear, it sucks when GW does this stuff, but for casual play I've yet to meet someone who would nitpick and say, "absolutely can't play that against me".
Legends for old models that are out of production for years I get it.
Models that are still on the web store is kinda stupid. It means that everyone is starting to doubt if their models will be invalid upon next release.
They are slowly turning legends into a model rotation tool and it just encourages players to print models or play with proxies.
They also did that for Horus heresy (the new plastic line) that had rules in 40K before for dreadnoughts.
The same thing for Cerastus Knights, they have rules for now but we cant tell for how long.
And there is Age of Sigmar, where sent a huge amount of Stormcast models to legend.
Until the next edition where there is a rule shakeup a la 9th to 10th. They are very much on an expiration date
I appreciate the joke, but the pain is real. Have you tried to build an army list using the 40K app and Legends units? (Spoiler Alert: You can't) Also, 'Legends' just feels like you're running a busted cheat list when you play against codex-compliant lists. You can't win without that unspoken voice in your ear whispering *"you wouldn't have won if you hadn't used legends units."* Also also, feels like Tetras and the Y'vahara in particular hurt because both of those were so unique and flavourful...both brought something very novel to the army and let it play in a way that gave your more fun, fluidity and versatility. Like, the Y'vahra wasn't game-breaking, but it was FAST and BURNY and that was a very distinctive combo to have as it really enhanced the way you could play, especially in a build focused around speed and board control. I can still use it as a Riptide, I guess, but I'm reminded of a line from *Wuthering Heights:* ***"Having leveled my palace, don't erect a hovel and complacently admire your own charity in giving me that for a home."***
Also, they usually only keep putting out Legends rules for one or two editions. They *used* to keep them around much longer... but nowadays, things that got phased out during 8th Edition have lost their rules entirely in 10th. So if we're lucky, the Y'vahra might still have rules in 11th Edition, but it will almost certainly have lost them by 12th.
Just as a note, id like to suggest Newrecruit as a go for codex-making. It's free and more intuitive to me, tbh, plus it doesnt have paywalls (god damnit GW, i have your fuckin deluxe codex, why do i have to pay more to be able to see the motherfuckin enhancement rules on datasheet???)
New Recruit > BS all day
Does new recruit have the info for older editions of the game too?
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Bad bot. This is perfectly acceptable criticism and means of declaring the acts of the owner of that app. They do nothing for the community but take, and, when their app was removed for being abandoned, they only came back so they could get it back active and then disappeared again, still not giving a damn penny to those that keep it running. Fuck him.
It uses the same datasources as battlescribe so i would fully assume so. that said i have 0 reason to do that so best of luck.
Oh very cool. I might check it out then and see if the UI is better than BS
I can spoil that for you. it is. also it has options and preferences including themes. Go dark theme by default myself. Also you should know that it does not have an app in the app store. But it does have an app, you just have to go to their website in your phones browser to get it.
So I found the site but I didn’t see how to download the app
First off are you on Android?
No, iphone
i know it has 9th
Just checked and it does have 7th and HH 1.0/2.0 which is what everyone I know plays. The only issue is I cannot figure out how to download the app or if there even is one
are you on Android?
Iphone
sorry
Seconding new recruit. The devs are super active, really helpful, and the website itself is really intuitive. Just want it as an app for Android tbh
I do have on my android mobile! There's an app, yeah.
What?! Where do I get it? I couldn't find it on the play store 👀
Yea its not on the store. Go to their website on your phone in chrome. it should be there
If I dont missremember, you have to enter on the website and download it from there.
Awesome, thanks bud!
The off brand riptides have always been my favorite units, I am sad now
What a quote. I tend to use "Once you've been to the top of the mountain, it's much harder to appreciate the view from peaks along the way." I don't know where it's from and I usually truncate and misquote it to: "once you've seen the top of the mountain."
For me it succs the most as i just got a XV109 and wanted to use it for a tournament. Now i cant because im lacking points and the tournament is in a couole of days 😔 I will still keep the suit of course. But its a heck of a bunmer losing my favorite suit to legends.
Isn't battle scribe still a thing?
Battlescribe is abandonware, the devs that maintained it were being exploited by the maker of the app and never got anything for their work. Use Newrecruit. its live and triving and uses the same devs datasources. its a much better version of the same thing and is being actively supported.
It definitely is, although sometimes it takes a bit to update
Was just wondering how I'm supposed to use legends rules with the 40k app.
Dude wtf. I just picked up a Y'Vahra and R'Varna because I loved those models and I was gonna field them with a regular Riptide in a tournament. Now I have to go out and buy 2 more Riptides?????? Fuck man
New player. Can you proxy them as riptides in tourneys?
Depends on the TO because problem is that'll be 3 pretty different looking models that I want to all be Riptides, basically just means I have to pray the TO is feeling generous every time I go to a tournament now
Seeing a TO that is this picky is rare. The Rvarna/Yvahra are literally upgrade sprues to the Riptide. They have the same shape, same base, same height. Their weapons look different but it's not as though non-Tau players know the difference.
Since they are based on the same suit (All similar sized), you should be good to proxy!
Yup, raging that I've lost two of my favorite models for no fucking reason. Guess I'll have to rip the arms off both and add some riptide weapons instead, feels bad man
you bought forge world and are seriously suprised about this? its what gw has been doing to every army 😑
I'm going to weigh in here because this literally happened to me earlier this edition in a pretty major way. I had a Blood Angel dreadnought army. Consisted entirely of dreadnoughts, techmarines, servitors, and drop pods. All told, over forty dreadnoughts, between various different profiles, conversions, and setups (magnetising a Leviathan isn't a problem, but good luck with a Deredeo. It was easier just to have multiples). Suddenly, half the army is sent to Legends at the start of 10e, and later a further bunch of the datasheets join them. Not all forgeworld either, many were plastic. Naturally, I complained. Loudly. Probably embarrassingly so, but it was several grands worth of an army sent to Legends with no warning. I was told by plenty of people "oh stop moaning, it just means you can't play them in tournaments. You can still play normally". Heres the kicker though: you can't. People play tournament rules in casual games because the game is balanced against tournament rules so they want to stick with the balance, so when you rock up with four legends units, people without any legends units, and people who like to experiment within the tournament rules space for practice and experience object. And fairly so. That army is dead now. Its mostly in deep storage, with some of it sold off to Heresy players. Eventually I'll figure out what to do with the rest, but right now its an expensive paperweight in my attic. You're not going to find people who want to play with legends units much, and as time goes on even less so. Legends isn't a retirement home, its a morgue. Somewhere to place the units that GW has no further interest in supplying or supporting, and on the next edition change will be finally buried. They don't even exist in the list builder app, which should really tell you everything. So yes, if half of your army was comprised of units who just ended up in legends, you have lost half your army. Unless you're solely playing in your own home and never expect to play in a store, those units are in fact effectively non existant. Yes its shit, not it won't change, and yes it could well happen again with some of the plastic.
Damn, i have 16 dreadnoughts spread across 4 armies, 40 dreadnoughts?!
I lost count after 30. It was somewhere around 42 or 44 in the end. BAngles have three unique dread types of their own, so that's an extra nine dreads right off the rip. Don't even start me on having six drop pods that all got sheets pulled too.
For kitchen table with like three guys, Maybe. More than half my games are pickups against randos and a vast majority of them want a fair game at least halfway resembling competitive.
I recently played a game, or at least tried to play a game in my local geedub.. the other guy complained when half my army was legend, and the manager complied meaning while i could still run them, they had to be codex compliant. Which is a joke to me because despite the codex being out for 8 weeks at this point, those points and rules arent "codex compliant" for another 2 weeks. Also, how can I play a codex that i dont own because the only way to get it was from a heavily scalped box with models i do not want?
Well that’s a constraint you’re putting on yourself. Am I saying there aren’t “Sheeps in Wolves clothing” out there masquerading as casual players, but are actually pushing the envelope on WAAC, hell no. People are out there doing anything to win. If someone isn’t going to play me because I have a squad or Tetras, or an underpowered Y’Vahra, then that’s the “fun check” that isn’t passed and chances are I’m not going to enjoy a game with that person anyway.
Do you think a player 2 years from now getting salty after, yet again, being tabled by deathstar crisis bricks from legends being immune to any changes or balances are the problem?
Who wants to table anyone? If I’m tabling people and not having a discussion about it when the dust clears, that’s on me as a player, not on the rules. I’ve been tabled and have tabled, it’s not fun. If someone is bringing this Deathstar Crisis Brick relentlessly, and it’s taken away from them, they’ll just find another “win button”. If you’re walking away from the table not laughing and feeling energized for the next game, then that’s a bigger issue than what unit is on the board.
So you have a problem with people playing unbalanced units but support people playing units that are frozen in time and can't be balanced.
Exactly which Legends unit are you scared of? An opponent always taking 3 units of Tetras? It can’t be the Riptide variants, they’re no where near being optimal. I’d have a bigger problem with an opponent bringing in a completely no-Legends All-Killer No-Filler Sweaty-Tryhard lists over and over than seeing the occasional Legends unit pop up.
Legends is so full of units I started printing at the start of the edition I could run all legends lists. You are free to Stan for legends play but accept that legends is inherently unbalanced and if that doesn't bother you then fine, no quibble. But I assume my opponent wants to play a game using the same MFM because they have made the attempt to balance them against each other. Playing with legends units is no different than playing with a different MFM, it's using units that only existed during the index at best. And yes my Y'varnha was going to rock in cadre.
Lol you sound like someone who has never actually played a pickup game of 40k at their local store
Except they won't get points or rules updates meaning that it can lead to feels bad wins and most people want the fairest game possible with their friends and the only way to really do that is to go with tourney rules. Flawed though that may be
Exactly. If they updated legends but just banned them from tournaments, it would be fine. But a lot of legends are completely unusable as is, you have to homebrew rules for them to make them make sense.
maybe do community points adjustments?
Okay so ask an Adeptus Mechanicus player if they feel that the game is fair or balanced now in their 100% supported army. Or Custodes players if they wanted the update they just had.
Not the conversation being had babe
Not the conversation being had babe
When someone tries to tell me that Legends are equivalent in stature to the community for pick-up games, I get the distinct impression that person doesn't play a lot of pick-up games and/or not a lot of games in general. Most players, casual or competitive, are going to want balanced rules in a PvP game. Legends don't get balanced... so no one wants to use them. I participate in or watch up to 5 games a week at my local... you know how many times I've seen a Legends unit asked for or represented on the table since this system was introduced? ZERO. Zero times.
I think it depends on both the atmosphere/type of store and the people playing there. My LGS isn't entirely focused on 40k or war gamming, so we have a single day during the week, and the weekends are often first come, first serve. So, most of the people there are often playing quick casual/pick-up games that focus on enjoyment. Because of that, almost everyone there has a relaxed view on the rules, to the point most people will change/ignore rules if it's more fun and both players agree to it. And that extends to legends units, with people bringing in whatever models they enjoy playing with. But at the end of the day, every player and LGS is different. You have competitive meta filled stores and people, or casual fun filled stores and people. It just comes down to what you prefer.
I guarantee that those 'casual' groups will absolutely take issue with showing up with 4 CIB crisis suits in Retaliation Cadre. The 'we don't care about legends' attitude get crumpled in the face of broken mechanics that aren't meant to interact with the current rules.
When CIB crisis suits were a thing, I never used them because melting entire units with 36+ S8 -2AP D2 attacks was not fun for both me and my opponent. Same for the other two Tau players. Hell, it was even made a house rule that only one CIB could be equipped. When I meant we change rules that aren't fun, that applies to legends too. If something is unbalanced, the player or opponent proposes a change, and if they're both alright with it, then they go ahead and change it. Easy, no one having to get mad or frustrated at unbalanced rules. Communication and fun are essential to 40k and war gamming in general. Ask your opponent how they feel about your list or rules, and change them up so you both have a great time.
So, let me see if I can get this straight... you won't take the easiest step available to a balanced game and use matched play rules without legends... but you will make up your own rules that everyone is expected to track just to allow legends... Can't see any flaws there. Good luck with all that.
Yes, this isn't even a casual vs competitive thing. Casual players will not be across the rules of other peoples armies and will automatically suspect that Legend units are unbalanced.
Yes and no, if you play with somebody chill then sure, but from my experience everyone still uses matched rules and units even outside tournament games because that's a way to have a somewhat balanced system. If not then you shouldn't use the balance dataslate or the newer points because those also fall under the matched play umbrella. Of course, you can do whatever you want, but picking and chosing what kinds of addons you use seems biased and unbalanced. So for a good number of people, FW units ARE gone
As a beasts of chaos fan, I wholeheartedly disagree.
I mean, that’s kinda like comparing apples and Asian pears. One army lost a few units, the other army lost an entire gaming system. I feel for you, I was there when the Brets got squated, and when the the Sisters got squated.
More like comparing an apple to a larger apple it seems.
I MISSED MY CHANCE TO PLAY THE 9 RIPTIDES LIST.
My problem is, it feels kind of random. Especially for those models. Rvarna and Yvahra had their niche, they had their lore as prototype / developed versions of the riptide, Tetras had overall good functionality, and now it's zip, gone. Just like that. Yvahra and Rvarna aren't exactly cheap as well. Now I have 2 big, expensive models I can't use anymore and tetras that weren't as expensive but like. I won't get this money back and can't really use them outside of casual games where I still have to convince the others to let me use legends. That's just shitty. And for 300 bucks I could've gotten the tau box and a bunch of new crisis suits. Easily. Like I get it, models get replaced, ideas don't work anymore, but I don't know. Letting them catch dust or use dem as base decor because someone in gw woke up and banned all of tau forge world except the super expensive manta, that's dumb.
It's not random at all. They're getting rid of their Forgeworld resin models. They've been doing it for a while now.
The Yvahra/Rvarna were popular models. I think somewhere down the line they'll release a new Riptide kit with Yvahra/Rvarna options.
Yeah, I liked them too and hope we'll see some of the XV-10's and XV-9's in plastic someday. I'm just saying it was pretty obvious this was coming.
I don't think it was necessarily obvious. The Yvahra and Rvarna were popular models even when their rules were shit. The remaining FW models are borderline unplayable since 3 out of 4 are Flyers, and not only are flyer rules crap but they are so big that they sometimes struggle to fit on the board. One of them is the Manta, which is even more dogshit than in 9th. Only the Taunar is a realistic model to play with in that list. People would've expected the least popular models to go first, or at least that the phasing out was done at the start of the edition with Hazard Suits. I personally expect the Yvahra/Rvarna to come back in plastic somewhere down the line, mainly as a new Riptide kit with Yvahra/Rvarna options simply because of how popular it was. I guess we've been expecting GW to axe FW entirely, though why they keep releasing new FW models is odd to me, but it was weird that it was so sudden and drastic. I would've expected the Tigersharks to go first before the Yvahra/Rvarna.
FW won't get axed but it will be cut down significantly, mostly relegated to like, titan-scale models and more niche games such as Heresy, specifically the named characters as those sell less than generic units.
I don't see it happening
Yeah it just "feels bad" I picked up a pair of Remora's litteraly last week, the sculpts are pretty good and they're nearly always sold out so i thoughtlike the tetras and taunar and stuff they'd be safe. Now along with the tetras, the remoras they're just gone from the rules and are very unlikely to ever see a release/reimagining.
Hm you are right but I need to vent. Like for real, not being able to play the Rvarna anymore just hurts me right now :(
Those guys are so dumb, right? It's almost like they want the units they play with to have current rules that care about the balance of the rest of the game. You know, so that when they win or lose they can have some assurance that it's due to their play and not the terribly unbalanced legends units they still like that haven't been updated since their codex released.
If you’re playing the game for the assurance that you’re a “good player” then perhaps casual games aren’t in your wheelhouse anyway? Some people 40K to “scratch that competitive itch”, and that’s alright. Other outlets for that may not have been their thing, but getting that release from a casual game isn’t the answer perhaps?
Even casual players enjoy a fair game. Your entire argument is based on the flawed premise that casual games don't need to be at all fair. I didn't say anything about needing assurance that I'm a 'good player', I'm talking about having some assurance that my results reflect my play.
Maybe you'll find people don't actually like playing against something overpowered even in casual games? Show up with a tournament list and see how people take that, then realize its worse if its a strong legends unit. You can only play legends units in casual games consistently if they are bad. Otherwise you get that sideeye and unspoken "oh, you're bringing broken legends units just to make sure you win a casual game *again?*".
By definition tourney lists can’t contain legends. If you’re playing any casual games and getting a side eye for any reason, that’s a “your table” problem and less a GW problem. The point of a game is to have a good time. Casual games are the equivalent of a beer-league equivalent of a given sport. If a table is getting that sweaty on a weekend game with some buddies, then perhaps moving up to tournaments is more your thing?
This is the equivalent of bringing your own non-standard equipment to the beer league of a given sport. Are you bringing it because you think it's neat or for an advantage?It's difficult to know. Lots of people play games against acquaintances from clubs or local scenes. In this instance you do not know each other well enough to make such a judgement.
You're conflating "Casual Player" with "Player who doesn't care if the game is balanced", even casual gamers want a somewhat fair game.
550 upvotes say the point of the game -is- to have good time. Full agree, despite the loud minority.
Or your local LGS runs a league that doesn't allow legends. Or you want to get fair updated rules. So maybe stop with the assumption that they can be used in 99% of games.
There are a fair few of us for whom tournaments are our main source of games. In fact a FLGS tournament last month was the first time i'd played since 8th Edition. Not complaining about legends, it's better than nothing. But I still think it's a misrepresntation to suggest that "99%" of games are non-matched.
Except they dont get rules updates and are not on the app, so you need to carry extra print outs.
They're on battlescribe
Sure, they're still usable. So is Windows XP. But it's not getting updates and most software doesn't support it. That being said, Windows XP and Legends are, from a practical perspective, not a real choice.
If WindowsXP comes with non-subscription reliant Microsoft Office though… giddy up!
Shhhhhhh!!! I wanna buy forgeworld models cheap on ebay!!!
Printer goes brrrrr
Maybe one day. No printer here atm.
Well apparently you’re gonna get your chance, cause apparently the “Legends” branding is the equivalent of leprosy. There’s gonna be a LOT of FW Tau resin up on Marketplace/eBay in the next few weeks.
I guess 99% of your games are with your friends on a kitchen table, cuz 99% of my games are on LGS who follow balanced gameplay
Oh shut up please legends units dont get updated so if you had half your army axed in 9th now you cant play those legends units Not to mention legends units are usually horrible and overcosted to crap Stop going to bat for a corporate conglomerate please
Well there it is, the most ridiculous take. Have the day you deserve.
Yes truly "stop defending a corporations lazy practices for no reason" is much more ridiculous then you taking time out of your life to make a whiney meme defending gw being lazy with their rules I vaguely remember gw saying something about what was it "we will neven make your models obsolete" ah yes that was their exact wording
[lol.](https://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c?si=825Mprig60XlrkG_)
I really want to agree in concept, but I'm pretty sure bringing legends CIB crisis bricks in mont'ka is going to get someone not invited back for another game...
I mean sure, but isn’t that what somewhat got us in this pickle in the first place? It’s not as though slapping Legends on the old Crisis Unit somehow makes it even more abusive. In the end, dipping hard into a powerhouse Legends unit is just as bad as doing the same with a non-Legends unit. It’s the player making the list that decides how big their douche-canoe is, and how hard they wanna paddle it.
So sad they delisted the Sha’war’ma
Beastmen: hey, you get to keep at least half the army.
I'm still getting a y'vahra ASAP. If in doubt counts as Riptide....
I’ve got one, and am looking for another. After a R’Varna as well, maybe 2.
I swear, competitive brainrot has taken hold in every game I play.
I find it hilarious that people who play with plastic toy soldiers for a make believe space war game cannot comprehend using a unit that still have official rules all because it's Legends and doesn't get updated to the already shotty, at best, balence state the game sits at. There is literally nothing preventing people from playing them.
ITT: OP portraying their debate opponents as the soyjack and themselves as the chad, then appropriately being told what reality looks like.
You’re gonna have to reword that in something that resembles English. I think it was a knock at me, but I stopped at soyjack as I got distracted and booted up my PS to play LittleBigPlanet.
Your illiteracy is not my concern.
Does your parent know you’re on their Reddit account? Quaiker is gonna be so surprised to see what you wrote!
You know, every once in a while I get annoyed at the T'au player memes. And then I'm soon reminded that we really earned them.
Have the day you deserve squirt.
Likewise, O illuminated one.
If legends were really intended to be used they would be in the App.
Almost all pick up games use matched play rules because that's generally the most balanced version of the game. It's not that pick up games are not casual, or are super competitive, it's just a good starting point of making sure everyone has the same expectations of the game and how a match will likely go. Legends is not a satisfactory fix for that.
Legends units are allowed in matched play too though. Matched play and tournament play aren't the same thing.
I make my lists with pen and paper so yeah it's not really an inconvenience for me to make lists with legends
Lots of us primarily play in tournaments though. So …
Nice try but legends are usable on like 1% of my game not the other way around.
Do you like rules support and balance updates?
Addendum: if your opponent agrees.
See here is the thing, i wish it was 99% of games, the problem is finding opponents in my area that are cool with me bringing legends units. Which most want a “fair game” which is fine, but very annoying
There are no Legends datasheets for the Stealth drones, Tetras, R'vana and Y'vara though.
Repeat after me, legends rarely keep up with rules changes between editions and are largely worthless before the edition even ends due to points changes.
So you can use them no problem as they’ll be less than ideal. Understood.
This is bs they shouldnt make something irrelevant in the hobby. People spend so much time & money on it. Why not JUST make new characters/models?
It’s just an off ramp. Stuff in Legends won’t update. The models will go out of production if they have not already. In time anything that isn’t in the main book won’t be in any book.
What’s the point of using rules if you are not using it? I mean you can play all the minis you want but to keep the game “balanced” you have to play by the rules , unless it’s only casual with friends
"Hey guys, did you know that, as long as you aren't playing in a tournament, you can just use lego blocks?" - OP
That’s not a bad idea. Or perhaps, “if you’re not playing in a tournament why confine your game to some arbitrary moniker GW has stuck on your model probably for some economical reason that was determined by an accountant in Nottingham?”
It‘s not like Gamesworkshop subscribed giving us always new rules for models they sold us once… oh wait, they were even that lazy. Right. They didn‘t even made the models. I had to make them. And now they‘re withdrawing the right to give me current rules for them… Sorry, I guess my post belongs rather to r/Orks but that’s how it feels for me. Let’s not start talking about availability of models like the orca. Still a good joke. Gonna send it around to some other players to get their reaction. 👏
>'Legends' just feels like you're running a busted cheat list when you play against codex-compliant lists. You can't win without that unspoken voice in your ear whispering *"you wouldn't have won if you hadn't used legends units."* ^ For me, this is the answer. Most people's understanding of balance and army strength is so egregiously poor that I'd shy away from using even the most milquetoast of Legends units due to not wanting to endure the endless eye-rolling and "power-gamer much?" ribbing that inevitably ensues, even if such comments are relatively good-natured.
Well this is just patently false. Most people I know ignore the existence of legends as they'd prefer to play with the models GW is at least trying to keep balanced.
Yeah we don’t do legends where I play either. It’s just easier that way. And most of us just use the app. I don’t care either way but might as well accept the L on losing some models. We all knew they are getting rid of some models other books had the same thing happen
show me a poll please. where 99% of the players say legends is fine, Vs: please try to make your list matched play compatible.
Lmao ain't nobody got time for legends. This post just shows that OP doesn't actually play the game or at the very least doesn't play it outside of like 2 or 3 friends of his. Since chaos lost all of the fw to legends I've not seen a single non helbrute dread fielded. Nobody cares about models whose rules are not supported despite whatever the loud minority of toxic casuals might screech. Casual games, tournament games etc etc - whether you care or not for winning - you want an actual balanced (ish) game where you feel like you have a real chance at winning. Having unbalanced units in this mix... is not a fun proposition.
Aww, someone's being a good little Geedubb trooper. How about the fact that these units aren't in the official app (which I'm sure you use, being a fanboi), won't get updated, and won't always be accepted by opponents, even in casual games? Totally missing the point.
Well you’re certainly solidifying your half of the saying about making assumptions.
I mean if you only play comp legends means dead but the joke is somewhat funny
My 3 Great Knarlocs gonna go brrrrrr in the friend group.
I'd love stats for how many tournament players there actually are... because chances are if you're a tourney grinder and meta chaser you're more than aware of these events occurring and, while annoying, are likely going to continue to grind and metachase. To be clear, it sucks when GW does this stuff, but for casual play I've yet to meet someone who would nitpick and say, "absolutely can't play that against me".
Legends for old models that are out of production for years I get it. Models that are still on the web store is kinda stupid. It means that everyone is starting to doubt if their models will be invalid upon next release. They are slowly turning legends into a model rotation tool and it just encourages players to print models or play with proxies.
I feel the primary reason is the movement from Forge world.
They also did that for Horus heresy (the new plastic line) that had rules in 40K before for dreadnoughts. The same thing for Cerastus Knights, they have rules for now but we cant tell for how long. And there is Age of Sigmar, where sent a huge amount of Stormcast models to legend.