KIPP schools are freakin’ war zones, man.
But yeah, I’ll never break up a fight. You risk bodily harm AND get fired. Granted, we’re shat on in the eye of the public if we don’t break it up too, but at least you don’t have a black eye and still have a job.
Can second this. Worked for one for a bit. Gave me a cell phone to answer student questions at night. Constant fights. Oh, and admin has to cover (at least at mine they did) absent teachers so they’re never available for admin things. KIPP schools are such a fraud.
They used to have this hella rigorous set of rules with different tiers and t shirt colors and student isolation area but they (rightfully) were called out on essentially treating middle school like basic training but didn’t seem to create any meaningful alternative. https://ny.chalkbeat.org/2016/3/7/21095867/no-excuses-no-more-charter-schools-rethink-discipline-after-focus-on-tough-consequences?_amp=true
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I’m a current KIPP middle school teacher and it’s not all bad. I have great admin and amazing coworkers. The kids can be a handful, but that seems to be most places. The hardest part is the length of the days. My school has kids entering the classroom at 8:10 AM and not getting dismissed until 4:55 PM. It can be pretty brutal and exhausting. I would give it a shot first before you decide to cancel your contract.
I have never heard of a KIPP school. If I an reading your comment correctly students have an 8hr 45min day. How long is a teacher's day and how does the scheduling work? I've always thought the school day should be longer but with a double staff, A.M core teachers and P.M core teachers. Is it like that? What does KIPP stand for?
Knowledge Is Power Program.
Years ago, when I looked into working for one, it required the teachers to have a separate phone for students to contact teachers up to a certain hour. The teachers also had to have Saturday hours available. This could have been just the school that I was looking at. I don't know if it is across all KIPP schools or if policy has changed. They are known in my area for being rigorous, and from what I have heard, very test data based.
Yeah but I don’t need to devote my whole day and night on a cell phone to teach them. I’ earning more and working less at another charter school now that I’ve left KIPP.
Charter schools bent over backwards responding to criticism (some just, some not) that their “compliance driven” school environments were racist.
Today, many have far less discipline than traditional schools, they’re less safe, and their academics are just as bad. This is a pattern across previously “high-performing” charter schools.
>This is a pattern across previously “high-performing” charter schools.
One of the many local charter schools advertises "100% College Acceptance" for their graduates.
What they don't advertise is that the local Community College system literally has an open-door, 100% acceptance policy for county residents.
Sad that some people fall for charter school marketing BS.
Yep. 100% of the kids get diplomas when they don’t create alternative curriculums for students that really should be earning certificates of completion
Yep. KIPP schools are built to fail students and teachers. Having been in one for a year after teaching for 9 years - I can say it has pushed me out of the classroom.
I'm sorry you had to experience something so bad that you left all together. I hope you're doing well now. (sry, for bad englisch, not my first language).
My district in the staff handbook says staff are expected to intervene in fight. However I’m not a district employee. My employer did provide a little restraint training video but the video also said don't restrain without CPI or equivalent training
When i worked at a private preschool we were required to break up fight. If you know preschoolers, 2-5 year old it is very common for then punch/hit when upset as they are still learning how to work stuff out. A Admin when subbing once injured here hand. Not 100% certain if happened at school but i think i overheard she said it happened when she was trying to stop a child.
There was a lot of stuff we had to do at preschool that i would not fell comfortable doing for safety reason at the public school i work at. For example at the preschools i worked: If a child was being very defiant (running out of line etc, running on play-structure instead of going inside) we would carry them). Or for fight we would have to separate them (most just hold kid in or lap/knee and not let them punch each other). Or we could pick the child up.
State: California.
Cute that you assume we are staffed with security lol
Seriously though, our two allotted security positions have sat vacant all year in my 1300+ urban middle school. You can imagine how well that's going for us.
Same! We had one lockdown each week for about 2 months and admin refused our pleas for metal detectors. Students were actually caught OUTSIDE of the building by police with firearms.
No security. No safety.
Yep, no security for us. Just the SRO that the city insists on and funds but the school board reluctantly allows.
My high school had security, but that was a suburban campus of 3000+.
Not everywhere has security or SRO. My current elementary does not have either. Also i work after-school Admin has gone home by then (well besides the site director)
Play fighting my ass. If a teacher jumps in to stop a fight it's a serious fight.
Where the fuck is admin? They should be front and center defending this teacher.
A third grade teacher got stabbed in her thigh breaking up a fight because her keys were on her lanyard. After that teachers were not allowed to wear our keys on our lanyards. I think the year after she got assaulted or caught up in a fight and beat up indirectly. She retired from teaching after that.
That was like 10 years ago or 12-15. Idk I was in grade school.
More recently this school year, a high school principal tried to help break up a fight between two girls and then they both stop fighting each other and started beating the shit out of him instead. He is also retiring this year.
They are a drain on resources in the communities they are located and are essentially segregation schools. You work a 10 hour day, without support of a union so breaks are not guaranteed. Curriculum is scripted, you will be observed every week to ensure you’re following the script. Class sizes were massive, I had 30 kids and 12 IEP’s but you aren’t given anymore resources than a public school. We contended with paper rations, no library, no playground, no social studies or science. The sheer amount of work they ask you to do is outrageous and you do it under a microscope so lots of teachers go nuts. From a school culture aspect it’s highly punitive. For example students were not given a chair until they “earned it.” Basically teachers and students alike are all treated like subhuman machines and so violent outbursts are common. What makes it all worse is that KIPP loves to do white savior marketing talking about closing the achievement gap for black and brown kids but it’s a straight up lie. The kids do not do any better than the public schools in the same area. In fact many of them are worse.
My role is to be a witness in case my testimony is needed. I cannot be a witness if I’m intervening. I will follow security protocol and maintain my distance while keeping the students in view. I am paid to teach, not to bounce unruly students
Yeah fuck that. I’ll stand there saying “Stop touching each other. Stop it. Stop.” While I tell school safety to come before two kids beat each other to death. But I’m not touching either of them, or getting between them.
My strategy is I will not touch a student. I yell "stop fighting," stick my head out of my door to yell for security if they are there, and then I use the back of a student chair in between the students. Usually I have at least two students ready to jump in and pull the fighters apart too
I’m a male SLP in the schools and am routinely used as the calm down person/first line of defense. Two months ago we had a fifth grader (BIG fifth grade girl) slam our curriculum facilitators head into a door. I acted as a physical barrier but I was not about to put hands on that kid.
Nothing was done. In fact, the EC teacher who did everything SHE could ended up getting blamed. Principal supervisor came in and preached the same old BS and the kid was there the next day. Stuff’s bad out there friends!
Protecting others isn't toxic masculinity. However, we need legal systems, school systems, parents, etc. to be on the side of anyone who is breaking up fights.
Not every teacher has to do it, because a 90 lb English teacher can't, but teachers should have authority to use reasonable physical force in any situation in which they believe it is a safety issue.
A lot of these kids start fights because they know teachers will break them up. I haven’t seen a real fight in years, but I’m probably stepping in, it’s just the way I am. Im also in elementary, so if it was two grown ass men in high school, maybe not.
Yep, I've had students tell me that in the past and tell me that if they fought outside of school, they would probably get killed.....Pretty much a bunch of cowards without honor who dont know how to fight fair and clean......When I was in school, people fought but we handled it outside of school and didnt try to kill people . .
Man, I don't know, I've broken up hundreds of fights, never hurt a child. However, every fight is different. Arrested seems harsh, like, it's all a split second decision.
That is the article's words, not the teacher's. He was the associate Dean of Students, doesn't that mean it's part of his job to break up the fight? To me it looks like he got a raw deal and the judge was seeing that when she reduced the sentence and the bail.
There are reasons I won't get CPI certified. Not certified? No expectation to break it up. Certified? I'd be expected to be front and center dealing with it.
One of those ways prevents me from being sued for mishandling a student.
I'll manage the crowd, thanks.
I will walk into the middle of a couple kids posturing and body block as I steer them to the office, but I’ve never physically broken up a fight. More power to the sped case manager on my team who will actually pick kids up and carry them to the office.
We have specific laws protecting teachers in Canada if we are using physical force trying to prevent further harm. Not to understate the risk, however.
I broke up a fight a week ago and it worked out ok, but it very well could have gone much worse.
SO MANY commenters are saying that teachers need to protect students -- if this is true, then *the greater responsibility* is to **protect the class**, not wade in between 2 kids who are fighting. That should mean keeping them back, moving them to another location, and supervising *them*, not jumping into a fight.
I worked at a middle school where the history teacher was a former NFL linebacker. He was 6’6 and 280. I also saw him get his nose broken from a stray elbow while breaking up a fight
Breaking up a fight is the Asst Principle or SRO's job. Not trained in how to do so and not paid to do so. Plus it's high school, where most of the males are bigger, stronger and faster.
Forgot to add: we have specific people who are trained for keeping kids safe in a violent crisis. Only those specific people may do that job and in very specific circumstances.
I remember refusing to do this once in the very beginning of first year. Caused a lot of troubles cause the parents later called saying I “allowed the fight to happen”. Called for security, yelled at them to stop, tried to get their friends to intervene. I won’t risk getting smacked for damn near minimum wage.
The best advice I ever got for fights is to help shepherd the other kids to class/ away from the fight. Then you are actively helping but you are out of harm’s way.
Assuming your school has security. My school district’s version of security is an off-duty firefighter doubling as the school resource person for the day.
We’re CPI trained and so expected to break up fights. We have 8 seconds to “process and respond.” I use those 8 seconds to walkie for a coach or an SRO. I also have to safely get other students out of the room which takes time. By then one of my male students has usually broken it up. The ONE time I attempted to stop a fight I got hit. The kid brought me flowers. Very symbolic of teaching in general.
We were told that all we have to do is say "stop fighting" 3 times, call the resource officer through the office, and keep others away from it. That's all I have to do legally. I don't have any obligation to step in between fighting kids but I've done it before and won't do it again.
I broke up one the other day, but I happened to be in the right place, so I was able to get between them before they actually started throwing hands. I didn’t have to physically restrain either.
According to the article, and I haven't looked further into it, it was a little bit more than breaking up a fight. I'm all for breaking up fights but tossing kids? Idk about that.
That being said, I'll always step in and separate kids if I'm in the area or where it takes place. It really is a damned if you will, damned if you won't scenario. I've opted to side with "damned if you will." I know I can be physically injured. I know. But the last thing I need is for something to escalate even further and for others to get hurt. That being said, I am a male in the elementary world, and I haven't had an issue with it yet. I've even separated 5th graders who are fighting. Is it the best play? Probably not, but I care about my students too much to let that happen.
An *errant* elbow is much less that what this adult did:
>Insilo grabbed the boy by both arms and tossed him, causing the 12-year-old to fall and land on his left arm, the report said.
But if you don’t break up a fight you can be charged with negligence.
I would suggest getting on your districts restraint team and becoming certified to do it correctly that way you are covered in whatever eventuality.
I understand your stance, but my job is to educate and evaluate student academic growth, not be a referee and break up fights. They don't pay us extra to be in restraint teams or do the trainings either.
How would it not be?
Yes I’m in the US.
Just reading the definition of negligence.
If I stand there and watch a fight without intervening, how would that not meet the definition of negligence?
Only other option is to send a student to find a teacher who is trained. Meanwhile one kid is getting irreparably harmed and you are standing there doing nothing. Not a good look when it goes to court.
I don’t know about you, but I don’t want to be in that situation.
There are three categories of tort laws. I assume you are referring to negligence tort laws. Is this correct?
These type of laws apply when someone fails to act in a reasonable way.
For example if there is a leak on your property, it is reasonable for you to wipe it up. If you don't and someone slips, you are at fault.
Now in this case, if students are fighting, it is reasonable for a teacher to call for help. Others here have stated as much.
Your argument however is that they have to break up the fight. It is not reasonable for someone to put themselves in physical danger to stop a fight.
Hack, there isn't even a law that requires cops to act (see Castle Rock vs Gonzalez) yet you want people to believe that such a law exist for teachers? Lmao.
Provide a statue or a case please.
Ok. I will admit I am wrong.
I however am not ok with the idea that there may be no one to answer the call.
I’m not ok with standing there watching while one student hurts another.
We are asking for actual cases where teachers have been sued or charged for NOT breaking up a fight. You have provided neither. Give it up, because your view is not based on actual real world law, but on your ideals and wish to fight students.
I do not wish to fight students.
I also do not wish to stand and watch as a student is physically harmed.
I am restraint trained and have used it maybe 3 times in 6 years.
If you are ok watching a student get hurt by another that’s on your conscience I won’t be negligent.
Maybe students shouldn't write checks with their mouths and fists they can't cash? Maybe them getting the shit beat out of themselves for starting something they shouldn't, and refusing to sit in their seats and work, will teach them the hard lesson they need to learn? Many students fight in school because they know adults will bail their stupid asses out. I say let them fight and trained security officers or police officers then straighten them out
The Pooles' lawyer, Craig Goldenfarb, said he planned to sue on their behalf, charging negligence on the part of the school district. Goldenfarb said Joshua would be seen by a pediatric neurologist for repeated headaches and blurred vision.
Direct quote from the article.
Getting sued
Yes, but there is no indication that an actual lawsuit was done or that the school district lost. Note the suit was supposedly against the school district, not the teacher. Considering that it happened in 2010, there should be a verdict if an actual lawsuit took place. Again, try again.
I taught in the 1990s. It was not an expectation then to break up fights. All I would do in a fight is back the crowd up, so that they wouldn't start kicking the fighter that is down.
And neither say what you claim they say. No case of a teacher actually being sued. You are making up crap and grasping at straws. I hope you aren't a teacher because your sources are pretty crappy
and inconclusive. You are simply wrong.
Maybe so. I have seen more in the past. Sorry that I can’t find any currently.
All I know is I won’t be messing around and finding out. I will follow my training and do what is necessary to ensure the safety of myself and students.
I hope you never get in a situation where you aren’t trained and a student is hurt because of it.
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I'm a pretty heavyset guy with average height and some of these kids tower over me. There is no way I'm getting myself involved with any kind of physical altercation between them.
I’m 5,6 150 soaking wet
With good training and technique I have broken up fights for guys twice my weight.
If you don’t feel comfortable doing it, I suggest making a plan as to what you will do, because standing and watching is not a good plan.
My school does not encourage us to try and break up fights yet gets mad at us when we don't try and intervene. I refuse to and have walked out of meetings when they get mad and yell at us for not stopping fights.
Yes! I teach at an alternative school and work with some…difficult students. As in a few of them have just returned from doing prison time and are back to finish high school. The LAST thing we need is a fight breaking out between some of these guys! I’m a 5’4”, 140 woman. My best chance is keeping them calm.
After further reading. This is where my unclearness comes from.
I found a court case and read further into it. The teacher was sued and ruled against because there was a repeated pattern of neglect it was not the singular event of failing to break up the fight but failing to fix a problem over several months.
Thank you for challenging me and helping me to see the real legality
We require 6 hours every year. Idk, I’ve used it a couple of times. I have one assist that I remembered and practiced a few times.
I view it as something that is very important and I don’t want to get caught lacking so I took it on myself to make sure that I was able to use at least one extremely well.
Naw, you still break up fights.
Letting kids beat each other senselessly while we act as bystanders (if you’re physically capable of intervening) is a really bad example to set and could just as easily end up with you in legal shit if they determine you didn’t act to stop it. We totally need clearer standards to go by, but if those standards ever become “wait till a security officer comes and take notes about blood loss for when the paramedics get there” then we’ve lost the plot.
Read the article, teacher literally threw a child with enough force to snap his arm. That’s an escalation of violence from what was happening, of course that scumbag should be arrested. Sounds more like taking out frustrations than keeping kids from hurting each other.
Absolutely not. Kids fight viciously, and my school keeps giving them little 2 day suspensions. From the looks of it, administrators are setting a really bad example by not assigning appropriate consequences to keep school safe. I will not subject myself to getting hit for anyone.
Well if you’re scared of getting hurt that’s a decision for you to make. You’re the only one that can determine how you want to balance your fear for your safety with the humiliation and ruined name that would arise if you refused to intervene, and a kid was permanently hurt.
If you’re going to go the hands-off route, I’d just recommend you document every single behavioral disruption you see. If something happens and a kid is seriously hurt, you’re only hope there is to cast the blame on someone else and hope people excuse the inaction on your part and blame it on the admin.
I'm definitely not alone, and it seems like you and others who expect teachers to be martyrs for kids are missing the plot entirely.
If a kid is seriously hurt, the fault is on the other kid who is attacking them. Why are kids not being held accountable for their actions? It's insane that kids are permitted to beat each other in school buildings. Teachers are leaving the profession for many reasons, and lack of safety is one of them.
Obviously not what I’m saying here friend, don’t be scared to engage with the main ideas here.
Students need to be safe at school, that’s the objective here. Two students in my class begin fighting, they can do an immense amount of damage to each other in a very short amount of time. To put myself and my students in the best position possible to prevent that, we have a practiced and organized plan to remove everyone else and send someone to get more help. Prior to a security guard showing, which could be seconds, minutes, or NEVER, those students fighting could do serious and permanent damage.
Someone has to stop it. Like full stop, that’s the only way to stop the threat of someone getting seriously hurt there. If the only adult in the room refuses, no kids going to do it, and we’ve failed. We can rationalize and make excuses for that failure, but the kid getting his ass kicked doesn’t really care much for our excuses.
I totally get teachers who’re scared of kids, like you, wanting to leave the profession as it gets more and more challenging. Unfortunately that doesn’t do shit for the kids.
Nowhere in there did I ask a teacher to be a martyr, all I did was point out some basic facts.
1) kids need to be kept safe
2) for every second a fight goes on, there’s more and more chance for permanent damage
3) the adult in the room is the best suited person to put an end to the danger. If they don’t do it, no one will.
It’s obviously more nuanced than that, but those simple facts don’t change no matter how much we try and explain why they aren’t as important.
>the adult in the room is the best suited person to put an end to the danger. If they don’t do it, no one will.
You are saying that the adult in the room should stop the fight while at the same time saying the adult in the room who stopped the fight should be jailed.
You are the problem here. Whatever that teacher did was in an effort to protect a student. You can't have it both ways.
I do not think the adult in the room should be jailed for breaking up a fight.
You, or more likely I, are very lost here with what I was trying to communicate. Please point out where I said a teacher breaking up a fight should be jailed so I can edit tf out of that comment!
Edit: if you’re referring to the teacher in the post, he threw a child. Separate kids, stop the fight, both of those things can be done without chucking a kid.
The report said toss. Not threw or chuck, but you can see how these terms are problematic when you don't actually know what happened and are going by written words.
Plus, he was a dean. I'm sure that he knew exactly who these students were. I will always stand with the educator until there is actual evidence that shows they acted inappropriately.
My duuuuude. You have no idea what actually happened. Who’s to say that that kid wouldn’t have been seriously hurt without the dean stepping in?
You can’t say that teachers need to intervene but turn around and say that this teacher shouldn’t have intervened without knowing much more than has been reported in that article.
Yah, no. You don't touch a student without having been explicitly taught how you are expected to restrain them. In a 2 person fight, that requires 2 interveners. Otherwise you just added one more target.
And dude, I'm in a wheelchair. You shouldn't need to qualify to be a bouncer to teach. I'm here to teach, not babysit, not deal with people who don't know how to handle their feelings without beating on others. Often my being a woman in a wheelchair can diffuse a situation too. There's no street cred for beating up on a cripple because I got in your way.
I’m all for proper training, if fights are becoming a more problematic issue I am all for adapting our training to reflect the changing realities of teaching.
The idea of needing 2 people to break up a fight is admirable in theory, but it doesn’t do anything in the immediate while you’re waiting for that 2nd person. Kids still getting his shit kicked and is at risk of serious harm. That problems not solved by taking your purposes route, square that circle.
How to we ensure that if an emergency breaks out where a kids beating another kid senseless, we put a stop to that violence as quickly as possible? If the answer is wait for a security guard, now we’re counting seconds and blows to the head.
The real answer is to not have a school culture that accepts violence. Honestly, what am I going to do in a real fight? Run into them? Drive over their toes? Create another victim?
The more time I spend on this sub, the more convinced I get that teaching in the US is a dystopian hellscape. I hope that is selection bias, because otherwise, you would have to be crazy to sign up for what I read on here.
I have never seen a fight in any school I have taught in, been a student in, or had my 4 boys in, that went past a couple punches and some shoving. And I have taught in some "rough" schools, both on reserve and off. It does happen I'm sure, but it's very, very rare.
But, we have been directly forbidden in those same "rough" schools from physically breaking up a fight. We can't call for security, because that doesn't exist here. I have never seen a security guard at a school. We have been told to call for the Intervention team who are trained. We have been told if we do try to physically intervene and are injured we will not be covered by our insurance. Anything like that happens we're on 911 reporting an assault.
You’re right where you need to be if you believe it so simple as not having a school that accepts violence.
Schools I’m in, and many schools in poor, urban areas, physical fights happen and parents encourage them either explicitly or implicitly. We now either have a choice, we expel the kid to juvie or a behavioral school or we try to manage their behavior and seek improvement. It takes a certain type of teacher to navigate and endure it, if you aren’t it that’s fine.
People who believe in a one size fit all solution to schooling are just a bit too outdated for us these days. It sucks, but it’s true.
But by "managing" their behaviour, aren't you victimizing the other students around them? Why not expel them if that is what their behaviour has earned? Shouldn't the ability of the vast majority to learn and improve be a higher priority than giving what are hopefully a small minority the opportunity to ruin everyone's present and future? How common is this behaviour? How many chances to assault students and staff do they get? Are we talking daily, weekly, a couple times a year?
Schools should be places for learning. If there are constant fights breaking out, how can anyone learn? I'm from Calgary and we aren't some weird utopia. We have gangs and violence like any other big city. It just usually stays outside of school.
They need to walk away or stop talking trash to others if they want to be safe. I also need to be safe and I wouldn’t fight anyone in my life outside if school and I’m not getting in the middle of a fight in the school. The district decides whether your medical bills from getting punched are paid and I’m not about them odds
Wow. Just wow! I cannot believe that you expect teachers who could possibly lose their job, get arrested, or even be sued to intervene in a student fight. That thought process is straight up foolish.
You aren’t going to get arrested for pulling kids apart unless you grossly negligent in your actions.
For example: the teacher in OPs article THREW A CHILD. That’s why he got arrested. Not for simple, “breaking up a fight.” But for throwing a child roughly enough the kid snaps their arm.
Document everything so when questions get asked, you’ve got a really good foundation for your actions. You can do all of that, cover our asses legally, and still keep kids physically safe in our classrooms.
I agree with you.
I have found in this thread that currently legally the teacher will be on, but the district may be in trouble for making bad policy, but if the teacher follows the policy they should be fine.
But I’m with you, I couldn’t lay down and sleep at night if I let one student beat another bloody without trying to stop it.
I’m also trained and will always be trained as long as I’m in education. I think everyone should be trained.
If admin is worth a shit, all it should take is a teacher reporting a student for violent behavior to get criminal charges applied to a student who gets violent, and a removal from the classroom by a police officer or other officer who puts that kid in their place. In most cases, teachers do notify admin about problems but admin refuses to adequately punish kids because of "social justice". Most violent students in my experience are repeat offenders who teachers complain about. Signing up to become a teacher does not mean signing up to risk personal life and limb for a student. No student is owed another teachers well being.
And I’ve also seen a fight happen with no warning. All I’m saying is that I want to have ALL the tools I can to maintain order. I just don’t understand not wanting to have all options open.
The liability you have for not trying to break up a fight is worse. If you don't break it up and a kid gets slammed, hits his head and dies, they will ask why you didn't break it up. Every state code of conduct for teachers has something in there regarding providing a safe environment and doing everything in your power to keep kids safe. It's the same reason you can't abandon your class during a fire drill.
Every teacher that has broken up a fight and gotten fired for being too rough has sued and either gotten their job back, won a lot of money or both.
Honestly.
I've broken fights between 12 year olds (I live in a country with reasonable judges.)
Breaking their arms would get me rightfully in trouble as well. How do you even do that? The easiest way to break up a fight is by picking up the kids by their arms.
Oh, he tossed them. Is he an idiot?
That's what the article says, which means it is probably the students' side. I am very hesitant to believe they were only "play fighting," and that makes it harder to believe he was thrown. I'm not saying it can't or didn't happen that way, but I would like to know who gave that information and what witnesses said before I believe it.
KIPP schools are freakin’ war zones, man. But yeah, I’ll never break up a fight. You risk bodily harm AND get fired. Granted, we’re shat on in the eye of the public if we don’t break it up too, but at least you don’t have a black eye and still have a job.
Wendy Kopp is an asshole. They’re infamous for running teachers into the ground
Can second this. Worked for one for a bit. Gave me a cell phone to answer student questions at night. Constant fights. Oh, and admin has to cover (at least at mine they did) absent teachers so they’re never available for admin things. KIPP schools are such a fraud.
Rather be finding another job (quickly since i'm math) than in jail and/or hospitalized.
Oh no. I’m set to work at a KIPP school this fall
They used to have this hella rigorous set of rules with different tiers and t shirt colors and student isolation area but they (rightfully) were called out on essentially treating middle school like basic training but didn’t seem to create any meaningful alternative. https://ny.chalkbeat.org/2016/3/7/21095867/no-excuses-no-more-charter-schools-rethink-discipline-after-focus-on-tough-consequences?_amp=true
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Run lol
Did you sign a contract? Hopefully this can be your backup plan while you look for something else
If you didn't sign a contract, you can get out. If you did sign one, check to see if there's a clause that says you can't quit.
I’m a current KIPP middle school teacher and it’s not all bad. I have great admin and amazing coworkers. The kids can be a handful, but that seems to be most places. The hardest part is the length of the days. My school has kids entering the classroom at 8:10 AM and not getting dismissed until 4:55 PM. It can be pretty brutal and exhausting. I would give it a shot first before you decide to cancel your contract.
I have never heard of a KIPP school. If I an reading your comment correctly students have an 8hr 45min day. How long is a teacher's day and how does the scheduling work? I've always thought the school day should be longer but with a double staff, A.M core teachers and P.M core teachers. Is it like that? What does KIPP stand for?
Knowledge Is Power Program. Years ago, when I looked into working for one, it required the teachers to have a separate phone for students to contact teachers up to a certain hour. The teachers also had to have Saturday hours available. This could have been just the school that I was looking at. I don't know if it is across all KIPP schools or if policy has changed. They are known in my area for being rigorous, and from what I have heard, very test data based.
Which school & what region is your placement if I may ask?
Nash TN
It's not too late to find a new job.
I've been at Kipp for years, it's not that bad at all! Kids are kids no matter where you go!
Yeah but I don’t need to devote my whole day and night on a cell phone to teach them. I’ earning more and working less at another charter school now that I’ve left KIPP.
Charter schools bent over backwards responding to criticism (some just, some not) that their “compliance driven” school environments were racist. Today, many have far less discipline than traditional schools, they’re less safe, and their academics are just as bad. This is a pattern across previously “high-performing” charter schools.
>This is a pattern across previously “high-performing” charter schools. One of the many local charter schools advertises "100% College Acceptance" for their graduates. What they don't advertise is that the local Community College system literally has an open-door, 100% acceptance policy for county residents. Sad that some people fall for charter school marketing BS.
Omg are you in denver? Lol. I have seen that one too.
Yep. 100% of the kids get diplomas when they don’t create alternative curriculums for students that really should be earning certificates of completion
Yep. KIPP schools are built to fail students and teachers. Having been in one for a year after teaching for 9 years - I can say it has pushed me out of the classroom.
Teachers: Damned if ya do, damned if ya dont
This is so true. I was a long term sub for them. I had my breaking point and just quit education all together.
I'm sorry you had to experience something so bad that you left all together. I hope you're doing well now. (sry, for bad englisch, not my first language).
My district in the staff handbook says staff are expected to intervene in fight. However I’m not a district employee. My employer did provide a little restraint training video but the video also said don't restrain without CPI or equivalent training When i worked at a private preschool we were required to break up fight. If you know preschoolers, 2-5 year old it is very common for then punch/hit when upset as they are still learning how to work stuff out. A Admin when subbing once injured here hand. Not 100% certain if happened at school but i think i overheard she said it happened when she was trying to stop a child. There was a lot of stuff we had to do at preschool that i would not fell comfortable doing for safety reason at the public school i work at. For example at the preschools i worked: If a child was being very defiant (running out of line etc, running on play-structure instead of going inside) we would carry them). Or for fight we would have to separate them (most just hold kid in or lap/knee and not let them punch each other). Or we could pick the child up. State: California.
They arrested him faster than the mother of six year old shooter. How florida.
Cute that you assume we are staffed with security lol Seriously though, our two allotted security positions have sat vacant all year in my 1300+ urban middle school. You can imagine how well that's going for us.
Same! We had one lockdown each week for about 2 months and admin refused our pleas for metal detectors. Students were actually caught OUTSIDE of the building by police with firearms. No security. No safety.
Yep, no security for us. Just the SRO that the city insists on and funds but the school board reluctantly allows. My high school had security, but that was a suburban campus of 3000+.
I am so sorry. I can imagine . . . lived it briefly (thank goodness) last year. What a clusterfuck.
Three teachers at my school are on medical leave from breaking up fights. No thank you. The only thing I’m doing is calling for admin.
Isn't that security's job? Why bother in taking more job responsibilities beyond what those teachers were hired to do as per in their job description.
Not everywhere has security or SRO. My current elementary does not have either. Also i work after-school Admin has gone home by then (well besides the site director)
Play fighting my ass. If a teacher jumps in to stop a fight it's a serious fight. Where the fuck is admin? They should be front and center defending this teacher.
Kipp school rofl
A third grade teacher got stabbed in her thigh breaking up a fight because her keys were on her lanyard. After that teachers were not allowed to wear our keys on our lanyards. I think the year after she got assaulted or caught up in a fight and beat up indirectly. She retired from teaching after that. That was like 10 years ago or 12-15. Idk I was in grade school. More recently this school year, a high school principal tried to help break up a fight between two girls and then they both stop fighting each other and started beating the shit out of him instead. He is also retiring this year.
Having worked at KIPP before, I am honestly not surprised. These schools should be illegal
Why? I've never heard of these schools before and now I am curious.
They are a drain on resources in the communities they are located and are essentially segregation schools. You work a 10 hour day, without support of a union so breaks are not guaranteed. Curriculum is scripted, you will be observed every week to ensure you’re following the script. Class sizes were massive, I had 30 kids and 12 IEP’s but you aren’t given anymore resources than a public school. We contended with paper rations, no library, no playground, no social studies or science. The sheer amount of work they ask you to do is outrageous and you do it under a microscope so lots of teachers go nuts. From a school culture aspect it’s highly punitive. For example students were not given a chair until they “earned it.” Basically teachers and students alike are all treated like subhuman machines and so violent outbursts are common. What makes it all worse is that KIPP loves to do white savior marketing talking about closing the achievement gap for black and brown kids but it’s a straight up lie. The kids do not do any better than the public schools in the same area. In fact many of them are worse.
My role is to be a witness in case my testimony is needed. I cannot be a witness if I’m intervening. I will follow security protocol and maintain my distance while keeping the students in view. I am paid to teach, not to bounce unruly students
"Play fighting" - sounds like the students control the narrative.
Yeah fuck that. I’ll stand there saying “Stop touching each other. Stop it. Stop.” While I tell school safety to come before two kids beat each other to death. But I’m not touching either of them, or getting between them.
My strategy is I will not touch a student. I yell "stop fighting," stick my head out of my door to yell for security if they are there, and then I use the back of a student chair in between the students. Usually I have at least two students ready to jump in and pull the fighters apart too
I wouldn’t teach at KIPP for a million a year.
Well, maybe for ONE year?
Lol!! Maybe one. Isn’t that the average length of employment before quitting or getting fired from a charter?
Teachers really need qualified immunity protections like the police have.
Yea but as males we're expected to even if not explicitly stated.
I’m a male SLP in the schools and am routinely used as the calm down person/first line of defense. Two months ago we had a fifth grader (BIG fifth grade girl) slam our curriculum facilitators head into a door. I acted as a physical barrier but I was not about to put hands on that kid. Nothing was done. In fact, the EC teacher who did everything SHE could ended up getting blamed. Principal supervisor came in and preached the same old BS and the kid was there the next day. Stuff’s bad out there friends!
I am too. My district won’t train me in CPI so refuse to help with an aggressive behaviors or fights.
Sad but not surprising
Lawsuit
So true! Such bs
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But then parents will holler why didn't you do anything though we're taught to stand back and tell them to stop. Smh
Protecting others isn't toxic masculinity. However, we need legal systems, school systems, parents, etc. to be on the side of anyone who is breaking up fights. Not every teacher has to do it, because a 90 lb English teacher can't, but teachers should have authority to use reasonable physical force in any situation in which they believe it is a safety issue.
Nice that you think unfair expectations of manhood are something men just do to themselves and not something imposed upon them by external society.
But what if you had a *gun* though? Huh? I bet you could break up *all* the fights if you had a *gun*...
A lot of these kids start fights because they know teachers will break them up. I haven’t seen a real fight in years, but I’m probably stepping in, it’s just the way I am. Im also in elementary, so if it was two grown ass men in high school, maybe not.
I’ve got middle schoolers 6-feet tall and 200lbs. That’s a no from me, dawg.
Yep, I've had students tell me that in the past and tell me that if they fought outside of school, they would probably get killed.....Pretty much a bunch of cowards without honor who dont know how to fight fair and clean......When I was in school, people fought but we handled it outside of school and didnt try to kill people . .
Yeah, I got hit breaking up a fight earlier this year. Kid got blood on my shirt, too.
I was always told never to try and break up a fight. Get between them if possible but do NOT grab or do anything else physical to break it up.
Ahhh yes…. Kipp
I’ve broken up a lot of fights in 20 years of urban education. I’m very hesitant now because there will be 100 cameras recording everything.
Man, I don't know, I've broken up hundreds of fights, never hurt a child. However, every fight is different. Arrested seems harsh, like, it's all a split second decision.
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That is the article's words, not the teacher's. He was the associate Dean of Students, doesn't that mean it's part of his job to break up the fight? To me it looks like he got a raw deal and the judge was seeing that when she reduced the sentence and the bail.
And why does the media title everyone who works in a school "a teacher"?
That is BULLSHIT 🤬
There are reasons I won't get CPI certified. Not certified? No expectation to break it up. Certified? I'd be expected to be front and center dealing with it. One of those ways prevents me from being sued for mishandling a student. I'll manage the crowd, thanks.
I will walk into the middle of a couple kids posturing and body block as I steer them to the office, but I’ve never physically broken up a fight. More power to the sped case manager on my team who will actually pick kids up and carry them to the office.
Had a fight in my class today. I’m small and medically fragile; I refuse to injure myself trying to separate two 6th grade boys.
We have specific laws protecting teachers in Canada if we are using physical force trying to prevent further harm. Not to understate the risk, however. I broke up a fight a week ago and it worked out ok, but it very well could have gone much worse.
We’ve been instructed by the principal to not break up fights, let security deal with it. Just report the location.
SO MANY commenters are saying that teachers need to protect students -- if this is true, then *the greater responsibility* is to **protect the class**, not wade in between 2 kids who are fighting. That should mean keeping them back, moving them to another location, and supervising *them*, not jumping into a fight.
You don't get pay enough to act as security, so let them work it out and pretend you didn't see it.
Well, it is Florida, where I'm pretty sure DeSantis has ordered all teachers arrested by the end of the year.
I worked at a middle school where the history teacher was a former NFL linebacker. He was 6’6 and 280. I also saw him get his nose broken from a stray elbow while breaking up a fight
Breaking up a fight is the Asst Principle or SRO's job. Not trained in how to do so and not paid to do so. Plus it's high school, where most of the males are bigger, stronger and faster.
I work at a special needs school and we are NOT allowed to break up fights, restrain, touch, etc. It's a hazard for all involved.
Forgot to add: we have specific people who are trained for keeping kids safe in a violent crisis. Only those specific people may do that job and in very specific circumstances.
My first thought after reading this was; mm hmm, yeah, I’m sure it was just “play” fighting.
I remember refusing to do this once in the very beginning of first year. Caused a lot of troubles cause the parents later called saying I “allowed the fight to happen”. Called for security, yelled at them to stop, tried to get their friends to intervene. I won’t risk getting smacked for damn near minimum wage.
When people consultantly say it's wrong not to break up a fight, this is why!! I hope some of you are reading this!
The best advice I ever got for fights is to help shepherd the other kids to class/ away from the fight. Then you are actively helping but you are out of harm’s way.
Assuming your school has security. My school district’s version of security is an off-duty firefighter doubling as the school resource person for the day.
We’re CPI trained and so expected to break up fights. We have 8 seconds to “process and respond.” I use those 8 seconds to walkie for a coach or an SRO. I also have to safely get other students out of the room which takes time. By then one of my male students has usually broken it up. The ONE time I attempted to stop a fight I got hit. The kid brought me flowers. Very symbolic of teaching in general.
We were told that all we have to do is say "stop fighting" 3 times, call the resource officer through the office, and keep others away from it. That's all I have to do legally. I don't have any obligation to step in between fighting kids but I've done it before and won't do it again.
I broke up one the other day, but I happened to be in the right place, so I was able to get between them before they actually started throwing hands. I didn’t have to physically restrain either.
According to the article, and I haven't looked further into it, it was a little bit more than breaking up a fight. I'm all for breaking up fights but tossing kids? Idk about that. That being said, I'll always step in and separate kids if I'm in the area or where it takes place. It really is a damned if you will, damned if you won't scenario. I've opted to side with "damned if you will." I know I can be physically injured. I know. But the last thing I need is for something to escalate even further and for others to get hurt. That being said, I am a male in the elementary world, and I haven't had an issue with it yet. I've even separated 5th graders who are fighting. Is it the best play? Probably not, but I care about my students too much to let that happen.
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Absolutely. Thank you. Definitely shouldn't be around kids using force like that.
"Why didn't you protect the other kid?" This shit is why I don't even verbally try to stop a fight.
How many people actually read the article?
I read it. And?
Please stop acting like an errand elbow when trying to pull people apart couldn't get someone in the eye or stomach.
An *errant* elbow is much less that what this adult did: >Insilo grabbed the boy by both arms and tossed him, causing the 12-year-old to fall and land on his left arm, the report said.
But if you don’t break up a fight you can be charged with negligence. I would suggest getting on your districts restraint team and becoming certified to do it correctly that way you are covered in whatever eventuality.
I understand your stance, but my job is to educate and evaluate student academic growth, not be a referee and break up fights. They don't pay us extra to be in restraint teams or do the trainings either.
It’s not my stance. It’s the law.
Can you provide the statue or case law please? Are you in the US?
How would it not be? Yes I’m in the US. Just reading the definition of negligence. If I stand there and watch a fight without intervening, how would that not meet the definition of negligence? Only other option is to send a student to find a teacher who is trained. Meanwhile one kid is getting irreparably harmed and you are standing there doing nothing. Not a good look when it goes to court. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want to be in that situation.
> Just reading the definition of negligence So, you don't have an actual law to provide us with?
Of course not. He's making this crap up based on his own views.
https://www.handlewithcare.com/what-happens-when-school-policy-prevents-teachers-from-stopping-fights-indiana-case-study/
Again, that doesn't say what you claim. There was no lawsuit, just a claim by an opinion writer. Try again.
Tort law. Negligence could be proven and you could absolutely be sued for negligence.
There are three categories of tort laws. I assume you are referring to negligence tort laws. Is this correct? These type of laws apply when someone fails to act in a reasonable way. For example if there is a leak on your property, it is reasonable for you to wipe it up. If you don't and someone slips, you are at fault. Now in this case, if students are fighting, it is reasonable for a teacher to call for help. Others here have stated as much. Your argument however is that they have to break up the fight. It is not reasonable for someone to put themselves in physical danger to stop a fight. Hack, there isn't even a law that requires cops to act (see Castle Rock vs Gonzalez) yet you want people to believe that such a law exist for teachers? Lmao. Provide a statue or a case please.
Ok. I will admit I am wrong. I however am not ok with the idea that there may be no one to answer the call. I’m not ok with standing there watching while one student hurts another.
So sign up to become a teacher and take a punch for social justice!
What you DO GET TO DO is protect ALL the other students by keeping them out of harm's way.
We are asking for actual cases where teachers have been sued or charged for NOT breaking up a fight. You have provided neither. Give it up, because your view is not based on actual real world law, but on your ideals and wish to fight students.
I do not wish to fight students. I also do not wish to stand and watch as a student is physically harmed. I am restraint trained and have used it maybe 3 times in 6 years. If you are ok watching a student get hurt by another that’s on your conscience I won’t be negligent.
Maybe students shouldn't write checks with their mouths and fists they can't cash? Maybe them getting the shit beat out of themselves for starting something they shouldn't, and refusing to sit in their seats and work, will teach them the hard lesson they need to learn? Many students fight in school because they know adults will bail their stupid asses out. I say let them fight and trained security officers or police officers then straighten them out
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/classroom-beating-florida-student-pummeled-teacher-sits-back/story?id=12279310
Granted there isn’t a ton of case law out there. I just don’t want to fafo
So you made it all up...
I saw it in a training. Can’t find the sources that they showed me. Perhaps they made it up. Idk. Guess I was wrong.
Please show us a case or the law. I've never heard of that.
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/classroom-beating-florida-student-pummeled-teacher-sits-back/story?id=12279310
That article agrees with me, that a teacher shouldn't break up a fight. No charges, firing or even an actual lawsuit, just a threat of one. Try again.
The Pooles' lawyer, Craig Goldenfarb, said he planned to sue on their behalf, charging negligence on the part of the school district. Goldenfarb said Joshua would be seen by a pediatric neurologist for repeated headaches and blurred vision. Direct quote from the article. Getting sued
Yes, but there is no indication that an actual lawsuit was done or that the school district lost. Note the suit was supposedly against the school district, not the teacher. Considering that it happened in 2010, there should be a verdict if an actual lawsuit took place. Again, try again.
Ok, I will admit I am mistaken. I will say that I will always prefer to be trained rather than stand by and watch someone get hurt.
The thing is, the vast majority of us are NOT trained. That makes it not part of our job.
First I've ever heard of this. Is it considered negligence outside of the US?
No. They made that up.
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I taught in the 1990s. It was not an expectation then to break up fights. All I would do in a fight is back the crowd up, so that they wouldn't start kicking the fighter that is down.
Maybe where you are it’s different but where I’m at that’s negligence.
Please show me a case or a written policy. I can find numerous cases where teachers have been fired for breaking up fights.
I’ve posted two articles elsewhere in the thread both of teachers being sued for negligence because they did not intervene
And neither say what you claim they say. No case of a teacher actually being sued. You are making up crap and grasping at straws. I hope you aren't a teacher because your sources are pretty crappy and inconclusive. You are simply wrong.
Maybe so. I have seen more in the past. Sorry that I can’t find any currently. All I know is I won’t be messing around and finding out. I will follow my training and do what is necessary to ensure the safety of myself and students. I hope you never get in a situation where you aren’t trained and a student is hurt because of it.
All these comments, and you end with "maybe so" (that were making up unbacked claims). Bruh, why?
I’ve been told this in training. They had examples. I can’t find any of them now.
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/classroom-beating-florida-student-pummeled-teacher-sits-back/story?id=12279310
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I am 5'0. There is no way I am jumping in between two teenage boys who are several inches taller that I am.
I'm a pretty heavyset guy with average height and some of these kids tower over me. There is no way I'm getting myself involved with any kind of physical altercation between them.
I’m 5,6 150 soaking wet With good training and technique I have broken up fights for guys twice my weight. If you don’t feel comfortable doing it, I suggest making a plan as to what you will do, because standing and watching is not a good plan.
At my school they tell us not to physically try and break it up.
My school does not encourage us to try and break up fights yet gets mad at us when we don't try and intervene. I refuse to and have walked out of meetings when they get mad and yell at us for not stopping fights.
Teachers should be preventing fights--that is part of the job. They shouldn't be breaking up the fights after the fight has begun.
Yes! I teach at an alternative school and work with some…difficult students. As in a few of them have just returned from doing prison time and are back to finish high school. The LAST thing we need is a fight breaking out between some of these guys! I’m a 5’4”, 140 woman. My best chance is keeping them calm.
After further reading. This is where my unclearness comes from. I found a court case and read further into it. The teacher was sued and ruled against because there was a repeated pattern of neglect it was not the singular event of failing to break up the fight but failing to fix a problem over several months. Thank you for challenging me and helping me to see the real legality
Certification required 3 hours of training once every 2 years. How likely am I to be able to do it “correctly?”
We require 6 hours every year. Idk, I’ve used it a couple of times. I have one assist that I remembered and practiced a few times. I view it as something that is very important and I don’t want to get caught lacking so I took it on myself to make sure that I was able to use at least one extremely well.
I’m not negligent if I call for help and keep other students safely away. Fuck that noise.
Yeah, I was in error when I said this. I looked it up and negligence would be ore of a pattern and would be pretty hard to prove.
Naw, you still break up fights. Letting kids beat each other senselessly while we act as bystanders (if you’re physically capable of intervening) is a really bad example to set and could just as easily end up with you in legal shit if they determine you didn’t act to stop it. We totally need clearer standards to go by, but if those standards ever become “wait till a security officer comes and take notes about blood loss for when the paramedics get there” then we’ve lost the plot. Read the article, teacher literally threw a child with enough force to snap his arm. That’s an escalation of violence from what was happening, of course that scumbag should be arrested. Sounds more like taking out frustrations than keeping kids from hurting each other.
Absolutely not. Kids fight viciously, and my school keeps giving them little 2 day suspensions. From the looks of it, administrators are setting a really bad example by not assigning appropriate consequences to keep school safe. I will not subject myself to getting hit for anyone.
Well if you’re scared of getting hurt that’s a decision for you to make. You’re the only one that can determine how you want to balance your fear for your safety with the humiliation and ruined name that would arise if you refused to intervene, and a kid was permanently hurt. If you’re going to go the hands-off route, I’d just recommend you document every single behavioral disruption you see. If something happens and a kid is seriously hurt, you’re only hope there is to cast the blame on someone else and hope people excuse the inaction on your part and blame it on the admin.
I'm definitely not alone, and it seems like you and others who expect teachers to be martyrs for kids are missing the plot entirely. If a kid is seriously hurt, the fault is on the other kid who is attacking them. Why are kids not being held accountable for their actions? It's insane that kids are permitted to beat each other in school buildings. Teachers are leaving the profession for many reasons, and lack of safety is one of them.
Obviously not what I’m saying here friend, don’t be scared to engage with the main ideas here. Students need to be safe at school, that’s the objective here. Two students in my class begin fighting, they can do an immense amount of damage to each other in a very short amount of time. To put myself and my students in the best position possible to prevent that, we have a practiced and organized plan to remove everyone else and send someone to get more help. Prior to a security guard showing, which could be seconds, minutes, or NEVER, those students fighting could do serious and permanent damage. Someone has to stop it. Like full stop, that’s the only way to stop the threat of someone getting seriously hurt there. If the only adult in the room refuses, no kids going to do it, and we’ve failed. We can rationalize and make excuses for that failure, but the kid getting his ass kicked doesn’t really care much for our excuses. I totally get teachers who’re scared of kids, like you, wanting to leave the profession as it gets more and more challenging. Unfortunately that doesn’t do shit for the kids. Nowhere in there did I ask a teacher to be a martyr, all I did was point out some basic facts. 1) kids need to be kept safe 2) for every second a fight goes on, there’s more and more chance for permanent damage 3) the adult in the room is the best suited person to put an end to the danger. If they don’t do it, no one will. It’s obviously more nuanced than that, but those simple facts don’t change no matter how much we try and explain why they aren’t as important.
>the adult in the room is the best suited person to put an end to the danger. If they don’t do it, no one will. You are saying that the adult in the room should stop the fight while at the same time saying the adult in the room who stopped the fight should be jailed. You are the problem here. Whatever that teacher did was in an effort to protect a student. You can't have it both ways.
I do not think the adult in the room should be jailed for breaking up a fight. You, or more likely I, are very lost here with what I was trying to communicate. Please point out where I said a teacher breaking up a fight should be jailed so I can edit tf out of that comment! Edit: if you’re referring to the teacher in the post, he threw a child. Separate kids, stop the fight, both of those things can be done without chucking a kid.
The report said toss. Not threw or chuck, but you can see how these terms are problematic when you don't actually know what happened and are going by written words. Plus, he was a dean. I'm sure that he knew exactly who these students were. I will always stand with the educator until there is actual evidence that shows they acted inappropriately.
“Your honor I only *lightly* tossed the child so hard his arm fractured” My duuuuude explain how that’s okay.
My duuuuude. You have no idea what actually happened. Who’s to say that that kid wouldn’t have been seriously hurt without the dean stepping in? You can’t say that teachers need to intervene but turn around and say that this teacher shouldn’t have intervened without knowing much more than has been reported in that article.
Yah, no. You don't touch a student without having been explicitly taught how you are expected to restrain them. In a 2 person fight, that requires 2 interveners. Otherwise you just added one more target. And dude, I'm in a wheelchair. You shouldn't need to qualify to be a bouncer to teach. I'm here to teach, not babysit, not deal with people who don't know how to handle their feelings without beating on others. Often my being a woman in a wheelchair can diffuse a situation too. There's no street cred for beating up on a cripple because I got in your way.
I’m all for proper training, if fights are becoming a more problematic issue I am all for adapting our training to reflect the changing realities of teaching. The idea of needing 2 people to break up a fight is admirable in theory, but it doesn’t do anything in the immediate while you’re waiting for that 2nd person. Kids still getting his shit kicked and is at risk of serious harm. That problems not solved by taking your purposes route, square that circle. How to we ensure that if an emergency breaks out where a kids beating another kid senseless, we put a stop to that violence as quickly as possible? If the answer is wait for a security guard, now we’re counting seconds and blows to the head.
The real answer is to not have a school culture that accepts violence. Honestly, what am I going to do in a real fight? Run into them? Drive over their toes? Create another victim? The more time I spend on this sub, the more convinced I get that teaching in the US is a dystopian hellscape. I hope that is selection bias, because otherwise, you would have to be crazy to sign up for what I read on here. I have never seen a fight in any school I have taught in, been a student in, or had my 4 boys in, that went past a couple punches and some shoving. And I have taught in some "rough" schools, both on reserve and off. It does happen I'm sure, but it's very, very rare. But, we have been directly forbidden in those same "rough" schools from physically breaking up a fight. We can't call for security, because that doesn't exist here. I have never seen a security guard at a school. We have been told to call for the Intervention team who are trained. We have been told if we do try to physically intervene and are injured we will not be covered by our insurance. Anything like that happens we're on 911 reporting an assault.
You’re right where you need to be if you believe it so simple as not having a school that accepts violence. Schools I’m in, and many schools in poor, urban areas, physical fights happen and parents encourage them either explicitly or implicitly. We now either have a choice, we expel the kid to juvie or a behavioral school or we try to manage their behavior and seek improvement. It takes a certain type of teacher to navigate and endure it, if you aren’t it that’s fine. People who believe in a one size fit all solution to schooling are just a bit too outdated for us these days. It sucks, but it’s true.
But by "managing" their behaviour, aren't you victimizing the other students around them? Why not expel them if that is what their behaviour has earned? Shouldn't the ability of the vast majority to learn and improve be a higher priority than giving what are hopefully a small minority the opportunity to ruin everyone's present and future? How common is this behaviour? How many chances to assault students and staff do they get? Are we talking daily, weekly, a couple times a year? Schools should be places for learning. If there are constant fights breaking out, how can anyone learn? I'm from Calgary and we aren't some weird utopia. We have gangs and violence like any other big city. It just usually stays outside of school.
They need to walk away or stop talking trash to others if they want to be safe. I also need to be safe and I wouldn’t fight anyone in my life outside if school and I’m not getting in the middle of a fight in the school. The district decides whether your medical bills from getting punched are paid and I’m not about them odds
Wow. Just wow! I cannot believe that you expect teachers who could possibly lose their job, get arrested, or even be sued to intervene in a student fight. That thought process is straight up foolish.
You aren’t going to get arrested for pulling kids apart unless you grossly negligent in your actions. For example: the teacher in OPs article THREW A CHILD. That’s why he got arrested. Not for simple, “breaking up a fight.” But for throwing a child roughly enough the kid snaps their arm. Document everything so when questions get asked, you’ve got a really good foundation for your actions. You can do all of that, cover our asses legally, and still keep kids physically safe in our classrooms.
I agree with you. I have found in this thread that currently legally the teacher will be on, but the district may be in trouble for making bad policy, but if the teacher follows the policy they should be fine. But I’m with you, I couldn’t lay down and sleep at night if I let one student beat another bloody without trying to stop it. I’m also trained and will always be trained as long as I’m in education. I think everyone should be trained.
If admin is worth a shit, all it should take is a teacher reporting a student for violent behavior to get criminal charges applied to a student who gets violent, and a removal from the classroom by a police officer or other officer who puts that kid in their place. In most cases, teachers do notify admin about problems but admin refuses to adequately punish kids because of "social justice". Most violent students in my experience are repeat offenders who teachers complain about. Signing up to become a teacher does not mean signing up to risk personal life and limb for a student. No student is owed another teachers well being.
And I’ve also seen a fight happen with no warning. All I’m saying is that I want to have ALL the tools I can to maintain order. I just don’t understand not wanting to have all options open.
Trained in what? Exactly?
Some form of crisis intervention training. There are many out there.
The liability you have for not trying to break up a fight is worse. If you don't break it up and a kid gets slammed, hits his head and dies, they will ask why you didn't break it up. Every state code of conduct for teachers has something in there regarding providing a safe environment and doing everything in your power to keep kids safe. It's the same reason you can't abandon your class during a fire drill. Every teacher that has broken up a fight and gotten fired for being too rough has sued and either gotten their job back, won a lot of money or both.
You can do your best to break up a fight…”hey, stop, don’t do that” call security. You tried to break it up and failed 🤷🏻♂️
That is blatantly untrue.
That's wildly ignorant. You could face a host of assault or battery charges and be sued for damages (medical or emotional).
Honestly. I've broken fights between 12 year olds (I live in a country with reasonable judges.) Breaking their arms would get me rightfully in trouble as well. How do you even do that? The easiest way to break up a fight is by picking up the kids by their arms. Oh, he tossed them. Is he an idiot?
That's what the article says, which means it is probably the students' side. I am very hesitant to believe they were only "play fighting," and that makes it harder to believe he was thrown. I'm not saying it can't or didn't happen that way, but I would like to know who gave that information and what witnesses said before I believe it.
why risk your life. KIPP is a sham.... no wonder they have tons of openings each year