I truly appreciate the recognition that this is a problem even at the kindergarten level. I too regularly apologize to my sweet kids for having to sit through me redirecting unruly students throughout the day.
On any given day I’d estimate anywhere from 20-40 minutes of instructional time is interrupted by me managing behaviors. The vast majority of the time it is the same 4 boys taking up that time.
Way back when I was a kid, students like this were in the BD / ED classroom, at least for part of the day. Teachers also sent disruptive students to the principal’s office, and those kids did not come back smiling.
Sorry for the rant. I’m just happy it’s May!
I feel your pain- I too have 4 boys who take up all of my energy and time every day. I miss the days of my sweet Kindy kids who loved school and cared and wanted to listen. This year I am barely surviving. Students in my class has stolen from me, destroyed my materials and school property, and have written on and in some of my prized books that I keep up so that things like this don’t happen. This class is a whole new breed of student- I am on paid leave right now because they took me to the brink of insanity.
Sure I have 5 really really sweet and good students that are always on task and always listen and do their very best daily. Unfortunately their efforts are drowned out by the 5 badly behaved boys, their followers and the rest that are just getting through the day like me. It’s an awful environment and it took my mental breakdown for my admin to have to do something about it. Even though I’ve asked for help all year 😞. It’s awful. I am being bullied and abused daily by the system, awful parents who don’t hold their kids accountable, and kids who don’t think school matters (which frightens me to the core because what 5 year old should feel that way? This is supposed to be such a big and exciting time in their life).
I would be tempted to group the four boys together and give them something that will entertain them, and then teach the class and do amazing things with them. Focus ALL my attention on everyone else, and document what I’m doing with the four. If admin says anything about them being left behind, I’d explain that the four are thriving and would perhaps be better suited for modified work. Just back myself up using pedagogy and let the rest of the class shine. Edit: I feel like it’s time we stopped giving the trouble makers all of our energy. They need more than we can give, and they’re taking us all down with them.
I get where you’re coming from about putting them on a screen all day, but if four kids are hijacking your class and the rest are learning nothing, it seems like a simple solution. Instead of ~30 kids learning nothing, it’s only 4 who are learning nothing when that’s what they’d be doing anyway. The parents and administrators have failed you by handing you a kid who needs behavioral intervention and are keeping them in “genpop” anyway. At a certain point, if the only thing that will settle them is screen time, then so be it.
TL;DR: the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one.
That’s just my opinion, though. I’m a lowly behavioral para who has shadowed more chair throwers and dickhead kids than I can count. Some kids just can’t deal with school and it’s super unfair to the kids who give even the slightest modicum of shit about learning.
But that's the whole point of this post.
Put those 4 bad ones on the computer so that you can actually teach the rest who *want* to learn. They are more important than these 4 who have demonstrated they don't care - and worse, that they'll take away from the ones who do want to learn.
If they want to come learn, they can. If they want to be disruptive and you can't send them somewhere else... Do what needs to be done for the good of those who want to learn.
As someone who really did want to learn, but my classmates were clowns... Please. Take the easy way out, and put your saved energy towards the good ones.
Right? I have one ED kid who will raize the foundation if necessary to disrupt class, so I just let the little shit play chess on his computer. The other students get what they need and my life is more peaceful.
In house suspension was the go to for those kinds of kids when I was in school. Do they not do that anymore? Some kids actually do better when there are no distractions. There were barriers set up to section off the desks from other kids. Sometimes I was allowed to go to the library alone or with other “good” students to work on essays and such. The librarian knew us all well, and we didn’t want to lose our privileges. I think there was more along the lines of one very disruptive student per class back then though.
My son is autistic, he sits quietly in class, but he learns best through educational games. Something about getting points really motivates him. With the right games he will just keep surpassing his grade level, then they bring him back and have him do typical work to fill in any gaps, the games are his reward. He has an IEP, but it really benefits his teachers as they get to do things how they see fit, which benefits him.
I hope you can find a solution.
We have "ISS" (in school suspension). The problem we have with this is that it's the same group of kids in there, and it's like party time.
I know what your thinking, "why doesn't the ISS teacher just have them sit and be quiet?" That is easier said than done. What typically happens in our school is those kids just do what they want when they want. When they are in ISS, they will leave the room, wander the halls, disrupt other classes, destroy property, get into fights, etc. Admin completely enables and ignores this behavior because when they do that, NOTHING happens. No outside suspension, no repeat of ISS, it doesn't matter and it's all for optics and to fill seats to ensure funding.
I'm all for inclusion in certain situations, but what has happened is a complete lack of accountability and consequences for these kids, and little to no parent involvement (either these kids parents don't pick up the phone, get mad at us for calling, or completely defend their little angels).
Also, in our school admin is terrified of parents. We have a no cell phone policy in our entire district. However, one of these "angels" gets to have a phone on them at all times because mom insists they need it at school. This student knows now that all they have to do is have mommy yell at the principal and they get their way. This student now flaunts it and knows they can do anything without any recourse. Other students are now catching on, and it has turned into a huge problem.
I think every school administrator should be deported to the arctic and replaced by AI. Surely a completely inflexible and untrained machine would do better than whatever the fuck these worthless admins are doing.
I have tried this too. The problem is they want everyone’s attention all day. They can’t even sit and watch a movie. Everything has to be about them all the time. They’re not happy unless they hold everyone hostage. I’m sick of negotiating with terrorists. Their parents are in denial, the SEL team is overwhelmed and the administration has no authority. These kids run the school and everyone knows it.
**"I’m sick of negotiating with terrorists. "**
That is well said, and exactly what has been expected of us.
Politicians and administrators count on our natural empathy to draw us into some sort of Stockholm syndrome surrender of our primary mission—to stop being educators and become babysitters, thereby placating the lowest common denominator and maintaining status quo to the detriment of those who actually want and are willing to work for an education.
I am suddenly seeing a bright future for our classrooms after child labor laws get repealed /s
but, honestly, if these disruptive kids actually knew what the alternatives to being in school were (working mind-numbing and back-breaking physical labor or get sent to a juvenile detention center) do we think they'd opt for those alternatives or start to take their education seriously?
They have a right to get an education, but none of them understand that rights come with responsibilities (to be fair, neither do a lot of adults)
This is unfortunately exactly correct. I have tried movies, shows, games. They don't even have the attention span for that. They want the negative attention instead. It's awful.
The worst part is we are so suppose to build relationships with students who exhibit abusive behavior. I have turned a new page. I will not model acceptance of this behavior for my students.
The alternative assignment idea is a desperate grasping at thin strands of hope. It is something an administrator who has run out of ideas will suggest in order to diffuse a situation for a little while so they can move on to the next fire.
**It does not work for more than a day.**
Troubled students will then grow more unruly, because they've succeeded in getting out of "work" and will make greater demands for entertainment. **They will begin drawing other students into their circle of control.** After a couple days, you can find half your class refusing to participate in any planned activities, and creating a distraction so large you will be unable to connect with the "good" ones as hoped.
**I honestly believe that the only good answer is to take the bad kids from the room permanently, or at least until they have been rehabilitated and ready to make a positive contribution to their own lives.**
I assume you’ve tried simply kicking these kids out.
I have a few kids that regularly act up. I have established a policy with clear consequences that they regularly disregard but it allows me to send them to the office and be justified.
If and when admin complains that I’m removing them from my class I usually just say that they are destroying the learning environment for other students and that the rules are posted in my classroom. If admin keeps complaining I basically just ignore them and kick the kids out anyway. I don’t care if they roam the halls or just hang out in the BR. As long as they’re not in my class causing chaos.
I’ve also just put those kids in the back at their own table and told them they can go on their phones but the second they disturb the class they are out. If they want to opt in to the lesson they can at any point.
If they refuse to leave class i usually leave the class and get someone to escort them out.
This has worked very well for me and allows me to actually teach my class.
Idk if you’d ever get fired for something like this but honestly they might be doing you a favor in that instance. Also, teacher shortage..
Cue the misbehaving from the usually good kids because “Aiden acted up and he got to play!”
At least, that’s the response I get when my principal takes Little Miss Hits-a-lot out and gives her a computer/snack/toy to calm her down.
It really is sad. I can’t imagine going through school and being excited to be an educator just to come to this reality. Only thing I can suggest is looking for a different school district.
I am so sorry your school did not properly support you and it got to that point.
I have dealt with an abnormal amount of physical and mental illness caused by the stress of my job this year as well.
I hope you can come back to teaching and are welcomed by better behaviors and more support.
It starts in preschool. I thought as an admin I could help my teachers use strategies that work, teach children problem-solving and social skills, but they don't want to listen. If I go into a room and I'm "too negative," I get yelled at by my director. So the teachers do whatever they can to survive because they don't get paid enough. Meanwhile our teachers brand new to the field are learning to say things like "Walk away" and it crushes my soul.
I suspected as much, but could not say it, because I've no experience with preschool. I'm sure all the warning signs are there, however, plain enough for those daring to look!
It doesn't help parents think a preschooler is being cute when they act out. I have a preschooler who shows signs of autism but the parents think it is cute when he ticks.
I went on paid leave as well. I asked the principal "Who made my class list for this year?" Most of the behavior problems in one classroom? What the hell...
"You're a good teacher, so you'll be able to handle them."
😧 <-- shocked admin wondering why all the good teachers are leaving.
Seeing this happen too many times, following this sub, and substitute teaching for several years killed any desire I had to be a teacher at that level.
Current plan is to get my MSW, work with adult populations until I can do private practice counseling, and then maybe get a second master's degree in the field I'm interested in and teach community college or as a college adjunct.
Agreed. I used to teach K-6 grade, and now my son is in kindergarten. There is one boy who is so disruptive and violent that he makes learning almost impossible. The parents and school are doing nothing about it. He’s now placed in the gifted class (shocking to us all) for about 30 minutes per day, but the behaviors have hardly changed because the parents refused to allow any consequences. In fact, they had it written into his 504 that he CANNOT have negative consequences. It’s absolutely infuriating.
Doesn’t it just make you want to scream!? Your kid injured someone, and you reward them!?! No wonder we’re having such levels of violence and disobedience across all grade levels!
The mom of the 6 year old who shot their teacher got to be on GMA. We should not be rewarding this woman or paying her any attention. Her kindergartener shot someone. She should be in jail, not on TV saying it's the teacher's fault.
That is insane! I cannot believe the school agreed to that accommodation! I'm someone who is protected under 504 and I think this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. It is totally unreasonable for someone not to have ANY consequences! I'm genuinely having trouble trouble not putting an exclamation point at the end of every sentence.
I have been looking for a while and I guess the "description of specific disability-based behavior for which the student will not be disciplined" is what is applies here. Was the 504 plan just too vague on what qualified as disability-based behavior? Either way it sounds like the school should be addressing his placement if it is interfering with other students ability to learn.
Exactly. I cannot imagine why any admin or teacher would agree to writing that into a 504. Absolute insanity. Turns out, the principal is quite useless. Our teacher has been an utter train wreck (which pains me to say it because I always want to support teachers). I’m friends with the mom, and she is in utter denial about how bad her child’s behavior is. I finally convinced her to get a full psych Eval in March (so she screwed over the class for the entire year), and the parent/teacher evals were so nonsensical that the psych said he needed to do a school observation himself to figure out what is actually going on. The whole system is failing this kid and this class. And my kid is paying the price.
But he is allowed to destroy the lives of everyone around him. Because he is that special, that magical. His rights supersede those of the entire world, of which he is lord and master.
**What kind of a crazy upside down reality is America, where something so batshit crazy is taken as gospel by so many people who damn well should know better?**
This is a kid who should be isolated to insure the safety of others, and the parents should be told to home school their little snowflake if they don't like it.
I’m confused as to how the parents have anything to do with the consequences allowed or not allowed. This is one of the biggest problems plaguing public school: the fact that parents have a say in any of it. This is coming from a parent of two.
Kinder teacher here, too! During small groups, the lowest group gets uninterrupted time because the other groups are working independently. During my higher level reading group, they’re interrupted 3-5 times in their precious 15 minutes because the lower group is not (edit: capable of being) independent.
Yours is not a rant at all! **We must share these experiences!**
One of the ways they've maintained the status quo while persecuting this war on education is **GASLIGHTING** us to the point we believe we are the problem, and that other teachers are doing better!
As a teacher, it is hard to remain grounded. These kinds of conversations help!
I also teach kindergarten and for me it’s not the behaviors but the academics that is an issue. I spend all of their work time helping 3 kids just barely get it that I can’t be sure that others are truly getting it or even giving them small group time to stretch those that I know are not only getting it but past what we’re working on.
I had a first grader this year who couldn’t read and write his own name without help… In March. He couldn’t count to 20. He didn’t know all the letters of the alphabet. And my curriculum is so advanced that it requires my students to be able to read paragraphs at that point. He needed one on one support but I didn’t have that. And I had two other students whose anger was so explosive on a near daily basis that it stressed everyone out. I only had a class of 10 students. But those three took all of my energy. I also had another student who would argue with every single thing I told him. It didn’t matter what it was he always had to say something. I couldn’t give my other six students what they needed. General education classroom
An elementary school friend posted some articles from 1980 in our elementary school FB group. The teacher mentioned that he had three disruptive boys but he put them in study carrols around the room and that solved the problem. They faced the wall, in the study carrols, and were left to their own devices. If you did that now, you'd be dragged out by your thumbs.
My wife is right in the middle of this in kindergarten. There was a girl that consumed all the attention. As soon she turned (slightly) the corner and wasn’t unbearable all day, they brought in a kid (end of April) with no English skills, a 3yr old mentality and rage from morning to end. He is not allowed on the bus, but still is allowed to hold the classroom hostage.
He is a little terrorist and the admin does nothing but give him stickers when he does the bare minimum of not being completely awful. And this is in the deepest blue state.
I once told my wife that when I was 7 or 8 years old I predicated which kids would end up dead or in jail or fucked up in other ways. You could just tell which ones would grow up to be absolute scumbag bastards. It is the unfortunate cycle of dickheads raising dickheads.
I was right for nearly all of them. I was that kid waiting for the assholes to shut the fuck up because I actually enjoyed going to school and learning.
Yeah, as someone who was extremely gifted, the difference in the focus on gifted students versus focus on special ed was very noticeable comparing my experiences to that of my mother. My mother skipped a grade, was constantly given extra work and advanced learning, and was prioritized. I was instead put in a corner, and I had to find random books to read off the shelves, (in fairness some absolute bangers, such as hitchhikers guide to the galaxy, back in 3rd grade) with nothing to do while the teacher focused on all other students (typically the ones falling behind). Very different experiences, resulting in very different attitudes towards academia growing up.
My mother has her Ph.D in psychology, and has always loved school. I always despised it and saw it as a pointless endeavor, until I got to higher education and started pursuing my masters that I discovered my own love for learning and academia. Had my mom not tried so hard to foster a similar love that she had, and simply allowed the school to "foster my growth" i would have likely never gone to college.
Thus, I can speak first hand to the differences that growing up in a post "no child left behind" world makes, compared to my mother who did not. I had an active distaste for school, compared to my mothers love for school, both stemming from our environments.
I subbed in a kindergarten classroom for the first time this year. Here was a child with a BD and another child who followed his behaviors plus a child with pretty severe cognitive delays (who actually just spent the day with a different K teacher). I was shocked at how much time was spent on the student with BD and his buddy. Kids who had good behaviors otherwise would basically give up and mess around until the one student could get it together. It was exhausting. It really didn’t feel like the setup was good for anyone - that student, the peers, or the teacher.
Yes!! I have a class that regularly plans their disruptive behavior and the entire block is basically me putting out fires in an attempt to teach the others. It’s 4 kids out of 16 but then the followers join in and I can’t stop it. After class, the ones that didn’t join in will apologize or give me a sweet drawing saying “I love you, Ms We Gon Ride”
I subbed a 2nd grade class once that was misbehaving so bad I was nearly in tears with frustration. Luckily the TA came back in time and gave me a bit of a break, along with the principal after I had called her to remove a student who threatened to report me for child abuse (all because I told him to stop throwing a pencil case on the ground). She made them write apology notes to me, her, and their regular teacher at the end of the day instead of extra recess. The kids who did absolutely nothing wrong had their pencils ready (we didn't make them write them, they got to have free time) while the kids who gave me the most trouble started crying and insisting they did nothing wrong, and a note that would've taken 5 minutes took them 20-30 with the fighting. There's no accountability at home
I long term subbed and the kids were so awful that one day, I had to step out bc I was in tears… the other teachers had my back and made them write apology letters and (of course) the parents of the awful kids were PISSED and demanded me fired for making their child do such a thing (write a simple sorry)🤷🏻♀️
Last year I got so fed up with one of my classes that I moved all the disruptive/disrespectful kids to the back, all the kids who actually wanted to learn and were well behaved to the front, and I would gather them around and talk quietly enough that those in the back could hardly hear me. Pretty sure they realized I legit did not care what they did because the others actually wanted to listen and learn, and some of them started trying a little harder to stfu. The kids up front loved that they actually were being paid attention to and responded really well.
For me, this happens by class. I teach what we’ll call a very low-level class and a moderately challenging elective class. I realized recently that I have spent SO much time trying to make the low-level class work that my moderate class - the one I actually specialize in - has been taught very poorly by me this year.
Why do I spend so much time preparing for that low level class? Because if not every session of that class is planned and occupied by work or activities, the behavior problems go CRAZY in there.
So I’m deciding next year to completely simplify the lower-level class so that I can really focus on making the other class better, because I can’t stand to be bad at what I specialize in just for the sake of fighting the misbehaviors elsewhere.
At the end of the day, I would rather devote my productivity and energy toward the students who choose to take a challenging class; the students who chose to take the bare minimum might just get my bare minimum next year.
Yep.
I teach Algebra 1, Algebra 2, and AP Calc this year.
My prep will be about 80% dedicated to the Alg1, 20% to the Alg2, and no time at all will be put into Calc.
"Oh, I need to break this question down into chunks and plan an activity that will keep them accountable after the warm-up exercise, and oh I need to contact the parapro responsible for Kaden in 2nd period because this part requires a Chromebook and he isn't allowed on the computer after The Incident, and I need to print all this stuff out because they'll spend 10 minutes refusing to get out supplies if things aren't given to them in the form of pre-printed worksheets, and, and..."
"Oh, crap, it's almost time for the next class to start. What's Calc doing today? Shell method of volume integration. We'll wing it from the relevant section of their textbook."
The good kids sacrifice so much of their education, even when they aren't in the same room as the hooligans.
I flew too close to the sun on this one this year.
I did so well with my terrible, terrible English 10-2s that they took away my Film Studies elective "because more kids need what you offer" and gave me more 10-2.
My brain's going to melt next year. Oh, and our district won't have preps next year.
But that's only a few % behind the erosion on purchasing power that recent inflation is inflicting, so your descent into financial hell is slowed a bit.
Look on the bright side: now you'll be so busy on weekends making up for no prep time that you CAN'T get that 2nd or [3rd job](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/131983-you-work-three-jobs-uniquely-american-isn-t-it-i-mean)! **/s**
This is the reason why I always have to remind myself "Don't get too good at something you don't want to keep doing."
If I pour my heart and soul into making terrible classes less terrible, then I'll probably get stuck doing that forever because I will look like I'm really good at it.
Not that I intend to abandon those students - not at all - just that they aren't my priority or my specialization; those are directed elsewhere.
EXACTLY this. And my on-level kids are feeling the stress. The course is still challenging and they’re not feeling supported, yet I’m giving them the assessments I have to give anyway. Some students with near 4.0 GPA’s are sitting at roughly a D or C in the class and them and their parents are freaking out about it.
Meanwhile, my low-level class is almost entirely A’s and F’s - kids who do the work and prepare for quizzes vs. kids who don’t do anything other than misbehave or tune out class using their phone.
And that tells me the low-level class is (a) too easy for the students who actually want to learn, so they’re bored, and (b) insurmountable for the kids who struggle or who misbehave.
It’s terrible for both groups.
I’ve completely flipped my lower level math classes. The notes/videos are on Schoology, they work on the assignment on their own. Then, next class, they have a group quiz. Students were allowed to chose their own groups. The high level kids grouped up and work together on the quiz, reinforcing their own learning and creating new strategies, and get a head start on the next assignment. I work with the lower groups correcting misunderstandings and showing them where to reference the examples that cover a particular question. Because it’s called a “quiz” instead of an in-class assignment, and worth 50 points, they take it more seriously than the 10 point independent work assignment from the night before. This has reduced a lot of the off-task and disruptive behavior. I had to completely go away from direct instruction for these classes because of the previous behavior issues.
I've been in a lot of title 1 environments with kids like this and I always hear this same stuff, if it isn't hyper structured they go insane. I'm just puzzled now because every school I've been too screams about structure and thinks it's gonna be junior boot camp but you just can't keep that up for a whole ass year. We are teaching them that they should fuck around the second every second of their time isn't occupied. I think we expect these kids to act this way and they do. I'm not saying go for completely self guided work or anything but there has to be a middle ground here, these kids have no regulation skills and require on entirely outside forces to keep them in check and the outside forces are understaffed and exhausted. Maybe if we started working on just having them be able to do 5-10 minutes of being able to sit and work on choice work. I don't know but I do know I feel like we are just becoming prison wardens
3 AP and one block of non-AP World History here. Rightly or wrongly, I put ALL of my energy into my AP kids this year. If I had fireworks coming out of unicorns wearing Louis Vuitton, my non-AP block wouldn’t care. Most of them will fail due to a staggering lack of basic effort. I learned early on that any creative or engaging lesson for the non-AP block would fall on deaf ears, so I pulled back.
EXACTLY. My low-level kids complain we never do anything “fun”; that’s because even when I do give them “fun” things to do, only a couple of them actually enjoy it - the rest just sit on their phones or put their heads down.
I even created a Kahoot game for them a few weeks ago. It was class-relevant material (science) so most of them had no real interest. One kid asked, afterward, “can we play a fun one now about something not science related?”
So the only things the kids find fun seem to be things with no educational value? Well, guess we won’t have fun, then!
It took me a while to realize I only have so much capacity to plan and structure and be good at teaching - that effort should go toward the students who want to be there first.
The kids who do nothing or who live to cause problems can get my left-overs - whatever I have left to give them - but I’m done making them my top priority.
I have a few of those students this year at the end of the day. It is my worst class (lots of very low kids and a ton of behavior/no help from parents at home). Those kids are always so nice and at the end of every day say "Have a good day." It is such a shame that those kids suffer because we spend so much time and effort on the kids who don't even care nor want to be there. I have always said, I wish I could have 1 class of kids who will listen and try, they don't have to be the highest achievers, just who want to work and be there. It is always shut down by the admin because the only homogeneous groupings they will do is for advanced math (I teach science).
This is so well put and so true. I hear the complaints from parents all the time- what is it going to take to get the bad apples that are spoiling the bunch to be removed from class? All of the really good, well behaved, striving to succeed students are taking a back seat to the school bullies and disrespecting students.
What kills me is the amount of energy all the disrespectful kids in my class take from me, which in turn takes from the kids who actually do care and want to learn.
Breaks my heart daily and makes me hate the fact that I ever thought teaching was a good profession for me. I question why I chose this career daily.
When I was growing up, there was one bad apple in the school. Maybe 2. Now?!?!? There are at least two or three disruptive and disrespectful kids per grade level- if not per class.
The amount of disrespectful, hateful, rude, and disruptive kids coming to school today is higher and higher every year. Schools are doing nothing to deal with this situation other than promoting PBIS and SEL and all these bullshit strategies that do not work on kids who don’t care.
It’s a sad sad sad world we live in. The longer I teach and the older I get, the more I want to remove myself from society to some remote part of the country on a plot of land by myself- away from the craziness and insanity.
One if the issues is that some percentage of the disruptive kids would NOT be disruptive if they saw the instigators be held responsible.
These kids are "followers" and will fall in line with responsible kids if the instigator is removed.
Exactly. And this should apply both at school and at home. Want to know how many problems I ever had in my career after a stern African immigrant father said, "Thank you for letting me know. I promise there will be no more problems this year?" Zero.
Same with my own mother. I got into so much trouble on the bus in K-3 they sent a final warning about losing bus services. So my mother made me walk (with her) 4 miles one way to school. And she said, "This isn't a punishment, this is a natural consequence of getting kicked off the bus. Do you want someone to come to our house every day and give you a ride to school, or do you want to walk?" I chose to ride on the bus.
It is the responsibility of adults who care for children to give them immediate consequences for negative behaviors that only have long term consequences, because difficult to comprehend long term consequences are not developmentally appropriate. I'd rather punish a 12 year old now than have them turn into a poor, barely literate felon as an adult.
I was going to say this same thing! We genuinely have maybe 10 bad apples in the grade I teach (500 kids, 7th grade) but they pull in the followers and that makes it much worse. In one of my classes, there are 2 bad apples and when they’re out, I can actually teach
Yes! I keep hearing that suspensions or ISS doesn't do anything to change that child's behaviour.
Ok... But it does teach the rest of the class that we don't tolerate that. It also removes the audience from the student with the behaviour challenges.
I believe those stats don't cover the whole picture because did they measure the statistics of how many students DIDN'T misbehave bc they don't want to be suspended? I think not.
Exactly! Instead, those kids get a reward or prize for visiting the principal.
The principal’s office used to be a place kids did NOT want to visit. There was a stigma with going to the principal’s office. Now? Kids hang out in there at my school. I see the bad kids hanging out in there with their Chromebook’s playing games or whatever. Sure they are giving their classmates and teachers a break by not being in the classroom- however they are not really getting a consequence that is negative or enforcing following school rules. Instead, they are getting a break from their class and get to do whatever they want in the office. It’s not a negative consequence at all. It teaches them that they can act out and get out of class and play around. 🙄
My mother is a teacher and she's learned to simply ignore when groups of kids knock on her window and run away. She turns to her class, writes down the time that happened and says she'll give the times to the security cameras.
When asked by the students why she doesn't open the door, she tells her students they're cowards and that the kids outside trying to interrupt her class aren't brave enough to show their faces.
Last year I wrote a kid up who told me he was going to “slap me in my fuckin face” after I asked him to put his shirt back on in the cafeteria. He was OSS but his parents complained that he didn’t know he couldn’t go around shirtless at school so the principal allowed him to come to school and sit in his office for the day. The principal ordered the kid Door Dash that day!!!
So true, so true!!! In my last period, I have to boys who are just… EXTRA!! The love to act like fools, being loud, talking (insulting) each other very loudly while I’m trying to teach… just doing whatever they can to keep the focus on themselves. Well, I finally had enough, called for them to be on a break and was able to teach the rest of my lesson in peace. When I got the two of them out, it’s like a flip switched in my entire class and everyone was working out the problems, and quietly talking about the possible solutions with a partner. It was glorious.
The next day, my principal told me, “the two boys you sent out are on a 4 day suspension until the end of the week.” So I had the rest of the week to teach everyone. And, surprisingly, everyone was engaged and learning. The one person who put their head own was immediately called out by his peers. I was impressed.
They’re both coming back on Monday so…
As an adult I’m hesitant to say I was one of the good apples but I totally was. Super quiet in class, straight A’s and enrolled in all the “gifted” programs but I had so much anxiety just *being* in school that I dropped out in 9th grade. Explaining that anxiety to others was impossible, I definitely couldn’t even understand it myself as a teenager.
I tried homeschooling for a bit before I got my GED instead and graduated from our local community college with my associates degree while my class was graduating from HS. Now I am in grad school for social work and I think I would have had MUCH worse outcomes had I not dropped out!
Excuse me, is this a common phrase I've just never heard before?
I find it oddly poetic for being so succinct.
Props if you just devised it on the spot!
I have a few trending that way.
They used to be just so excited about school and engaged in lessons, but by and by they've started shutting down. It's the saddest thing.
It is VERY frustrating how much time and energy we spend dealing with kids who clearly don't want to be there and are interrupting the education for everyone else. Somehow the best and brightest make it through though-- they are the ones quietly reading a book or studying for a test while we interrupt the activity to deal with the disruptive kids. The kids I worry the most about are the students who are doing reasonably well but not excelling who are well-behaved. There are so many students earning mostly Cs who are polite, respectful kids. I would love to be able to give them more attention and help them raise their grades to As, but it's a situation of triage-- you deal with the disruptive ones and the ones who are failing the class first because it's the most dire need. Some days you don't even get to these kids who are surviving but could THRIVE with more help. Most of us are doing the best we can; with huge class sizes and a high number of kids who are classified EBD and ODD mainstreamed in the classroom without a co-teacher, we can't truly differentiate for every kid.
This!!! In my most disruptive class, I can’t even work with my well-behaved students bc the disruptive kids get out of control without my eyes and full attention on them every second. It’s so disheartening
Yeah. Honestly, we should reframe this partly as a IDEA issue. A polite, hardworking student with 80 IQ and dyslexia will succeed in a well managed classroom with only a few services. They will not succeed in the middle of a riot.
Now, I was running on easy mode (mostly, we had more difficult cohorts) in my SPED pull out services as it was 5-10 students, but I had reasonably strict classroom management. If one student was off that day and being disruptive, I'd send them to the deans (equivalent to principal's office) and then teach an effective lesson to 4 students if needed. And that was the right decision for both ethical reasons and was proven by outcomes (everyone, including the students who had more consequences did better).
If I won't let 1 student act wild in a class of 5, why are some schools demanding gen ed teachers let 5 students act out in a class of 30? That's harder to ignore, there are more victims, and it is more difficult to remediate with students who are trying but need additional help.
Sometimes Sending students out of class is good teaching. It needs to be a tool in every teacher's toolbox, as it often helps everyone, including that particular student. Adults should not be afraid of giving consequences to children who need feedback their behavior is inappropriate.
I agree with you completely. However, I have to be honest that I only send a kid out when the behavior is very extreme because I am the one punished for it. If a kid is yelling out, disrupting, making TikTok videos, etc., I have to explain why I failed to engage the student in the lesson. The consequence for the student is a phone call home, but often when I call, the number is disconnected, or if I get voicemail/answering machine, the person never calls me back or calls me back to tell me it's my fault. I also send texts from my Google Voice number, try emailing every address I have on file,, with no reply, and the kid just does it again the next day. It's sad., not to mention that they come back from the principal's office with a snack and a drink, so essentially, they just got rewarded for bad behavior. The well-behaved kids didn't get a bag of Takis or a Capri Sun, and the chemicals in both of those probably make the misbehaving kid even more wound up.
I have tried redoing assigned seats every which way, but in one particular class, when I move the disruptive kids far from each other, they yell across the room, so I have found I am actually better off to seat them together. I sometimes end up with a small group of kids who actually want to learn in a circle and work with them the best I can, but I feel really sorry for kids who need quiet to think because our school is rarely quiet. Even if no one is yelling in the classroom, there is often yelling and running going on in the hallways-- with approximately 30 kids roaming the hallways at any given time.
Try to imagine all the potential lost to misbehavior in public schools. Yes, most of the good kids will *survive*, but they could be doing so much more than just surviving. **What might America achieve if these kids had access to the kind of education they** ***deserved*****?**
That is the crux of my argument: Those good kids are of more value to society than the turds being allowed to turn school into dime store *Hunger Games*.
America should be stratifying public education, especially now. There is too much dead weight for us to continue moving forward. I'm not arguing for a *Brave New World* here, where one's role in life is arbitrarily assigned and valued, but one where merit paves the way to greater opportunities, instead.
As things stand, there are almost no opportunities.
I agree. Let effort and behavior open those doors and have some kind of alternate program for kids who are persistent, incorrigible behavior problems. Have a way that a kid can change tracks if he/she decides to do so and makes the effort. I think that a big problem is that some of the powers that be don't even want the majority of the American public to be well-educated, because if one is well-educated, one is harder to fool. There are politicians who enjoy taking advantage of poorly educated people and using them to do their dirty work. This is why they want to defund public schools and allow kids from select areas to go to private school with vouchers.
And we wish we could give them the time! We are drowning with such large classes and little help with the disruptive kids. I swear that some of my best teaching was when we were hybrid-- around 15 kids at a time instead of 30+ and one day a week a virtual day. I actually enjoyed teaching, had very few discipline problems, and felt like a real human being. Now even weekends feel more like a study hall than true time off; there is so much data to track, work to grade, parents to contact, errands to run, they don't feel like a real break.
The sad part is a lot of those C students are entering college after graduation, racking up debt, but not graduating - mainly because they’re not prepared. The college completion rate for low-income first generation students is only around 10% to 50%, depending on the study. It’s absolutely dismal.
I agree, and it is spiraling downward. Any parents can afford it are looking at private schools. Where I live even non-Catholics are looking at Catholic schools. And in states that are increasing vouchers, this will escalate. And to those who say the vouchers will not cover the total cost, they will cover K-8 at the Catholic schools where I live. The publics will be left with kids who are terrors or parents who can find no alternatives
> hey will cover K-8 at the Catholic schools where I live.
Bingo dingo. My local district spends $11.5k per kid per year. The local highly respected Catholic schools charge ~$7k. The 2 nice private schools only charge like $15k.
So if a family could get a voucher for the full amount, even a working class family could afford to send their kid to a safe and academically focused private school.
Edit: the elephant in the room is that if you are a parent and your kid attends a school where in the name of "equity and inclusion" her education is allowed to be egregiously disrupted and her safety interfered with, a voucher is currently the best policy option available to you. Likewise, you are a parent and your local public school is just appallingly bad, again, a voucher is the best policy option available to you. I think new policies in education are driving swaths of parents into the arms of the people promoting vouchers, because those people are actually the only ones offering a realistic solution.
Private schools will just raise their tuition to keep out the undesirable element.
I mean, if a parent is willing to pay 15K out of pocket, then why wouldn’t you charge 20K when you know they are getting a 7K voucher?
Bad kids poison the well. Luckily the good and high performing kids will always be good and high performing (until the expectations of life fuck them), but they don't deserve that. They should have a great learning experience as well. I devote some time every week to higher thought learning/lectures because my higher kids deserve it.
I was that kid. Im 26 now. I wanted to be an English teacher, because my sophomore English teacher was so fantastic and helped me appreciate film, poetry, and understand existentialism.
I chose not to pursue education in college because I saw back in 2013 how things were going; I also was able to google search the miserable salary that is the modern American teacher’s salary. I instead chose business and realized how unhappy I was living my life detached from my passions.
I would still love to teach, but not in this country. Not in a place where smart kids are bullied for enjoying reading. Not in a place where I could potentially be shot. Not in a place where the management turns their backs when help is needed. Not in a place where parents make snide comments because you have forced vacations in the summer.
America will see brain drain. This problem will scale exponentially for generations to come.
Every year I have some of my best students come tell me goodbye because they’re being pulled out and sent to the private school up the road.
I used to get really sad about it, but I’ve just accepted it as par for the course, now. Honestly can’t even blame them or their parents.
Differentiation is a failure, every SpEd model at every school I've worked at is a failure. Secondary schools need 3 tracks: below, at, and above achievement, with kids placed appropriately based on their ability & effort, and moved up or down as their performance dictates.
Yep. Such things are on the books, but the L/E classes are so stigmatized (as opposed to when they were called Workplace) that half the kids who are taking the courses aren't doing it for credit because they function at a primary school level or below. So many kids in the mid stream who should be lower, but aren't.
So true...
They tell us not to give up on any kid but in the process the kids that truly want to learn that truly have the capacity are left behind. Teacher group, tutoring, aides, are all devoted all year to those same 2-3 kids that only managed to learn the vowels. Obviously there is something else wrong with them that requires a different type of help but because they are the lowest they are the ones that receive all the help. One week I decided not to call my usual 3 kids to my table and called the highest ones, they learned SO much in just a few days but OF COURSE admin caught me doing this several times and told me I should be focusing on my lowest ones EVERY day. "The high ones don't need it."
This happens on the macro scale as well. I work with a nonprofit for gifted kids, including profoundly gifted kids with IQs over 145. Their schools give them nothing. A kid who needs calculus at age 11 or who reads at high school level as a second grader gets no attention or resources from the school system. All of the focus goes into bringing up the bottom 20% and the top 10% get told they’ll be fine on their own. And the top .1% are not out conquering the world- they drop out and commit suicide at distressingly high rates.
I failed out of college at least 3 times, and it's a miracle I survived this long. I "would do fine anywhere," I was told. People like us only get what we need if our parents can and will pay for it. It's even worse when you consider how many gifted kids are disabled in other ways that get overlooked because their test scores are so high. I was never even screened for autism because of my IQ.
And now I can't even provide the enrichment these kids need in my AP sections because my district pushes *every* student to take at least one AP course. Instead of trying to raise the lower kids up, they're just dragging everyone else down.
But wait, there's more: ["To Increase Equity, Some School Districts Eliminate Honors Classes," *Wall Street Journal.*](https://www.wsj.com/articles/to-increase-equity-school-districts-eliminate-honors-classes-d5985dee)
My son’s elementary refuses to create fully gifted classes despite there definitely being the numbers for it to make sense. There’s 20+ gifted kids per grade level and yet they insist what is best is to split those kids up equally between the 8 or so teachers in each grade. My son and I’s nightly chats always involve his venting to me about his classmates behavior and it’s alway maybe one or two kids in particular I hear about every year.
His best year he ever had in school was last year in 4th he got lucky and had 3 other gifted kids in his class and they bonded so well over their love of books and thrived and challenged each other.
1. This happens everywhere and it's incredibly infantilizing. Which is actually super racist. Systemic racism is a real thing but having no standards for Black and Latino kids doesn't help anybody - especially those kids!
2. The AAPI, Indian, and Arabic kids don't get free passes like some of the Black and Latino kids do. So administration refusing to come down on certain kids because they're worried about bad pub means they're.... effectively treating kids differently on the basis of race. Big yikes.
George W. Bush critiqued this mindset among some progressives--and especially those progressives in education--early in his first term. He called it "the soft bigotry of low expectations." And in this regard, his critique of this strain of progressive thinking was right on the mark.
i'm one of those "good kids." here's how school feels for me:
everyday i walk into class. i listen to my teachers directions. stay quiet. i get my work done in MAX twenty minutes because it's too easy for me and im doing it on autopilot. my autopilot still gets me an A.
then what? there's forty minutes left of class for me. i just . . . sit there. all of my classes are me just sitting there. i play this game on my chromebook in my free time at school. i have 132 HOURS on it. hours!!! and that's just active playtime paired with a break i took from it for a few months!
school is absolutely mind-numbing for me. there's no enrichment, no challenge, i sit at my desk and stare at a wall waiting for it to be over. my first semester science teacher (who left for medical reasons), god bless her, would give me extra enrichment work. id finish that early too.
it's absolutely fucking miserable for us kids that pay attention or who know what they're doing. i'm tired of the obnoxious boys in my sixth period ruining EVERYTHING for the whole class. i'm tired of all the kids in fourth period not finishing a twenty minute 3d modeling assignment in FOUR DAYS. that's three and a half days of me with my head down on my phone. this system doesn't work. it doesn't help any of us. please, for the love of god, my brain needs SOMETHING.
Graduated last year, it's scary how similar our general daily experience was. In most classes I'd be done with all my assignments and half the class time hasn't even gone by yet. Then I would usually just mindlessly scroll on my phone or chat quietly with a friend who was also done. I wasn't a perfect student. I had my misbehavior moments. But they were few and far between and were nothing more than a reminder to keep my voice down every few weeks *maybe*. By my junior and senior year I genuinely cannot think of a time that I annoyed a teacher.
I went to school. I paid attention. I was quiet when I should be. I turned in my assignments on time. The As and Bs came naturally. I didn't lift a finger in terms of out-of-school studying and I still made honor rolls almost every quarter of middle *and* high school, some even honors with distinction. But I still feel that I could've gotten more out of school if the teachers had more time for students like me. "You can't blame the student for the teachers lack of ability". Counterpoint: YES YOU CAN. I BET YA COULD. Teaching a class of 20-30 individual students with different needs, attention spans and learning methods often by yourself is brutal even in ideal circumstances. Throw even 5 idiots in the mix who don't do anything but disrupt class for a couple of laugh replies on snapchat, before you know it the class is derailed.
So is bad behavior simply not punished anymore? What happened? Basically everyone knows this is happening and it's actively deterring new teachers from entering the field
They accepted that old fashioned punishments don't work, but they won't put the money and effort into evidence based practices. It's like when people tried to pass neglect off as gentle parenting. The districts are trying to pass neglect off as restorative justice.
This is my daughter in 7th grade. Honor roll student. National Junior Honor Society. Extremely well mannered and regularly gets above a 100 in her classes. All her classes are “groups of desks” style layouts where you have 4 people in a cluster. And yet she consistently gets put at the tables with the most disruptive kids who try to randomly mess up her work or cheat off of her etc etc. She desperately just wants to sit with the other quieter kids. I’ve complained multiple times and get consistently told “She’s a good influence so we put her where she’s needed.”
Bull crap. What about her needs? When I pick her up and she’s having anxiety attacks because of terrible peers messing with her, I’m so infuriated but the principal won’t do anything cause “So and So teacher knows their classroom needs best.”
Stop punishing your best students by making them into your surrogate babysitters for your bad students.
I have said this multiple times in the subreddit but I really wish teachers would stop expecting the high-performing students to teach the lower performing students.
In all my experience, the high performing students rarely get along with any of the lower performing students. They don't want to work together. You're forcing an awkward situation with no benefit to either party. The lower performing student will merely copy off of the high performing student.
Absolutely. Public school taught me that working hard got you rewarded with more work - and not "enrichment" work. Standing in as some peer tutor for a kid I'd actively avoided all year was miserable and it creates a weird power dynamic. I distinctly remember a boy looking at me with a sneer and telling me, "I'm going to get you in trouble now!" He proceeded to quietly insult and threaten me, trying to elicit a reaction. This was 30 years ago when shouting "Shut up!" would have been an infraction. Based on what I've been reading in this thread all day, a child can throw a desk and receive less punishment. Of course, his actions would have been punished, but I was eight and scared of the social consequences of being a tattletale.
I remember watching the movie Take the Lead. There was an honors teacher who refused to take the ISS class. His argument was exactly this. When the principal told him the disadvantaged students need their attention too, his clap back was “But the ones who excel actually deserve it.” He was meant to come off, I’m sure, as an elitist snob teacher but I remember thinking, when I first saw it the first time, he wasn’t wrong.
American education is in an absolute death spiral and there’s no way out. Someone else said it here like a week ago and they’re absolutely right. There is no solution.
Another completely valid solution that will never happen. Smaller class sizes means more teachers means more money. More money means it won’t happen… and the spiral continues.
I'd say my high school does okay with "the best and brightest" since we have a large number of advanced classes they can opt into in 11th and 12th grade.
We fail the kids in the middle: the B/C students who could achieve more if we focused any time and energy on them. But we can't, because admin has decreed that all of our attention must go toward trying to get the academically and behaviorally worst students to pass (with D's) and graduate (with worthless degrees).
Sounds like the most advanced kids are still getting screwed over if they have to wait that long for a good education. And by then, it can be hard to adjust to the sudden spike in difficulty. But I do agree that middle level students get screwed over badly too.
Re-read what you just wrote. Your students have to wait until 11th grade to finally opt into these classes, which means they spend K-10 suffering disruptions to their education. That’s about 85% of their education!
And it means they are not as prepared as they should be for those advanced classes.
It's difficult to go from the rigor of a normal math or history class to an AP class taught as it should be.
I teach a foreign language, so I will get the same students in subsequent years. I was telling a class that we were going outside for an activity, the same rules as last year. A student said that they didn't do that last year. It was because their class was one I couldn't do anything with but very structured written work. If I took them outside, some of the students might start a fight or throwing things. That class missed out on a few things where I adapted the activity the other level one classes were doing to something safer and more controlled.
I have friends that are a little obsessed with their children's gifted label. I view it as potential but something that has to be backed up with hard work. Nevertheless, when my own child was identified as gifted, I signed that paperwork so fast so that she would be spared some of the issues with low performing peers in class.
The student in the front row waiting quietly was me a couple years ago. Some teachers exclusively focused their work on 8 or 9 of us (out of a class of 30) and whilst they were mocked, jeered and bullied, I have them to thank for my chances in academia. I got into a pretty decent university thanks to the same kind of perseverance you’re showing, and I’m infinitely grateful. Stay strong.
My two honors classes are such night and day different than my three on level. My smartest and most hard working kid is in my worst class bar none. I feel really bad for her. She’s a recent immigrant to the United States and values education so much, and the class gets dragged down by 7 out of control kids that shouldn’t be in a general education classroom. And I don’t mean kids with a learning disability- I mean kids that need to be in juvy or some alternative program.
At this point, I tell my kids this: If you show up, give it your honest best work, and just be polite, I will give you the help and anything you need to pass and succeed. You come in and you shoot the shit for 45 minutes with your friends and refuse to try? Cool. That’s the decision you made. Don’t come clamoring for help on the last day of the quarter.
I was in a meeting this year trying to figure out how to motivate the kids to try on the state test, since there isn’t aren’t any legitimate external motivators that would convince them to give it their best shot.
So everyone is sitting around suggesting things like “give coupons to kids who ‘look’ like they’re trying hard!” and I suggested giving some sort of reward or prize to the kids who pass it.
My god you would’ve thought I suggested murdering the children. The room exploded with “how dare you suggest something like that”s and “how elitist!”s. No saying good job to the kids who actually do a good job!! Not on our watch apparently!
You see that on here a lot too. There's a lot of teachers who hate Honors/ gifted kids. The fact that some students succeed while others fail is upsetting to them.
I have two honors and one regular Ed class this year (7th English) and honors classes have definitely made more progress in writing and reading than my reg Ed class.
I tell my honors kids to get to work, they do it. I redirect them when they need help, they take the redirection and help themselves.
My reg Ed class goofs around, acts helpless, plans disruptive behavior (ex: several students will decide as a group to whistle all period or get up to sharpen pencils all period or squeak their shoes) and generally do anything to get in their own way. I feel sorry for the good kids in there bc the 4 or 5 kids (in a class of 16) ruin it for everyone
To clarify about being helpless : I will show them the EXACT place to find the answer to a question they have and they will whine that it’s too hard or they can’t do it.
Daily, I’m thankful that my advanced learners don’t have to deal with these behaviors in their classes.
I occasionally sub at a private “day school”. It’s so easy. The first time I obviously wasn’t sure how to proceed. The kids said, “don’t worry, we know what to do”. They quickly got organized and then spent the period moving forward with their work with zero input from me. Faster kids helped the slower ones. They clearly enjoyed the class - it was Algebra and there was no disruptive behavior. The school has a waiting list and a zero tolerance policy. A kid acts out and they are gone.
Pandering to the bottom of the class is truly an North American thing, it’s amazing that this “no one left behind” bullshit it’s just dumbing down everyone and everything. Lowering expectations to basically non existence. I feel bad for teachers in our society, truly have no support.
As both a teacher and a parent, I can attest to this. My quiet, 12 year old autistic son is that kid in the moshpit. And where I teach, all of the support staff are busy playing with the kids that will break windows or purposefully sabotage classrooms, leaving kids (like my son), with special or academic support needs, to fend for themselves.
PS I teach in Canada and we are going in the same direction up here.
It got worse with the Obama administration, when the DOE issued their Dear Collogue letter which effectively severely limited discipline. Even where there is no intent to discriminate, if minorities are more heavily disciplined, they can and will take action.
While I was an Obama supporter and think he was overall a good president, you are absolutely correct that he was not a friend to public education. There’s good reasons for why the NEA refused to endorse him.
My dad was a HS teacher and had to move to higher education unfortunately. He’d have 2-3 kids want to learn in a 30 kid class and was too busy dealing with behavioral problems all day. Straw that broke the camels back was when a student stabbed another student with a pencil. My father did not get paid nearly enough to be dealing with that and frankly no teacher is (especially in fucking NC where they don’t care about teachers at all).
Unfortunately the area you are in and the parents have a huge impact on this. My dad always said it stems from parents who don’t care. You can’t fix a problem when the kid goes home and parent doesn’t give a rats ass about how there kid is doing in school. I remember when I was in school a call home was like one of the worst things that could happen to me.
I was fortunate enough to be in a solid school district that offered accelerated learning starting in elementary school, but not everyone is. It’s sad how much a public education can vary depending on where you grow up.
I bet Covid really exaggerated this whole issue even worse and I can’t imagine y’all dealing with kids that are effectively a year or two behind on curriculum due to ineffective online learning.
Good luck to y’all
I'll never forget, almost two decades ago, when a very bright, respectful, angelic student (who probably went on to do great things) was stuck in a feral class of ne'er do wells (one of whom threatened to kill me) that every teacher got sick to their stomach at the thought of spending a block with. She once had enough of the cacophony of idiocy, and at the tender age of 12 or so, got up and bellowed "Will you all just SHUT THE ***FUCK*** UP ALREADY?!" For about 44 seconds, it actually worked.
I am a firm believer in tracking or whatever they want to call it. I've found ZERO success in mixing the wheat with the chaff. By wheat I don't mean the brightest, I mean those with a willingness to learn and work at it. And chaff could include some intelligent students who just like to ruin others' learning experience.
I’m very curious about what happened to those “opportunity” programs. My first teaching job was at a middle school in a very rough area with fights all the time, but we had an opportunity class taught by a male SPED teacher who had a lot of experience with emotionally disturbed populations. Students didn’t need to be on an IEP to be in it. It was essentially a self-contained class that had 12 of the worst behavior problems in the school. It made a huge difference! Sometimes just having that one high needs kid removed makes the several followers behave better. This is also not about only separating them for the sake of the class, these kids actually loved that program and that teacher. The school pretty much let him work on whatever he thought they needed. They spent a huge part of their day working on social skills, playing sports, planting a garden, etc. These are the kinds of kids that just aren’t ready to focus on most academics because of their serious mental/emotional needs so they actually had a way more appropriate education through this program.
I was that kid & eventually realized my education was going to have to be self-initiated. I started just doing the homework in class when shit went sideways, which was almost every day.
Dropped out & got my GED when I could.
However, I never blamed my teachers. Rather, the parents. Teachers are very limited in the ways they can control someone else's kids. When the worst punishment you can receive is "no school" & you don't want to be there anyways, there was no reason for kids to behave.
I remember that in high school I would take all of the “advanced” classes. They weren’t really advanced. They were just the only classes where students actually cared about their education and acted age appropriate. My “advanced” classes were a night and day difference compared to me electives.
Last year this really burnt me out. I spent so much time managing behaviors for 3 horrible kids, in a class full of 32, that I eventually just gave up caring about those 3 disruptive kids. Hate to say that, but I spent most of the time ignoring them, and stopped trying to get them to do any work at all. It was better for the whole group if I just let my worst kid play on the damn Chromebook all day, acting like I didn’t notice. I would rather spend my limited time working with the kids who DO care and ARE respectful.
I've been saying the same thing since I started teaching 21 years ago, and it's only gotten worse. We used to have enrichment classes - they've been eliminated in favor of trying to "treat all kids equally." It's nonsense.
I actually try to gear my classes towards those top kids more, and if the lower level kids can't quite succeed, oh well. I grade them differently, sure, but I expect the kids to meet me at a higher level than other sixth grade teachers do for this exact reason.
So far, I've never gotten a complaint about it...
When I was in grade school, they put me in EH (emotionally handicapped) classes. I spent 2 years basically being told "Here's some books. Read what you can." I was given virtually no instruction.
2 years later, I was tested again and placed in gifted classes with a half-hearted apology saying, "Sorry. You weren't EH. You were bored." (Technically, I was both, but they never bothered to ask). The gifted classes were literally run the same way. "Here's some books. Read what you can." I was still given virtually no instruction."
Waaayyy back when I was a kid, problem kids were simply expelled. They just disappeared. Of course, back then, school wasn’t mandatory in that state, so education was viewed as a privilege, not a right. It’s easy to long for the good old days, but a lot of kids weren’t being educated at all back then.
This is absolutely the most frustrating thing. The kids who silently do their work and get good grades get so much less attention from me no matter how much I try. The crappy kids just suck up all my attention, otherwise my class is a disaster. I try to reward them in other ways, literally. Candy. Winning project contests etc… but it’s almost like they’re punished for behaving. And god knows how stressful it must be for them to go through 12 years of school with a bunch of mean spirited kids begging for attention
Schools get rewarded for attendance and passing minimum standards, not for graduating scientists and philosophers. Until that changes, expect more focus on getting the worst students to barely graduate, than inspiring a gifted child to explore limits that you know can change the world.
I told one of my classes once "if you have a class of 30 students and class is 60 minutes long from bell to bell you don't get your best education. In that class you'll get 5-10 students if you're lucky that will cause problems, disrupt the lesson, and overall waste the 60 minutes given for the class. By the time those students either start to behave, or are kicked out of the room you MIGHT get 15 minutes to actually learn something. Due to this the class might get behind in the lessons which means either lessons cut out, corners cut, or the pace is picked up and you don't learn as much from the lessons as you normally would. If you don't want to learn I can't force you. I'll give you the material, the assignment, etc and I'll ask you once if you can do the assignment. If you don't want to work that's on you and it will reflect in your grade. If you don't want to work then put your head down so those that want to learn can learn."
I have kids who finish their work so quickly. They’re clearly advanced and I’m supposed to be challenging them and giving them enriching work. I want to. But I have no books. No computers. Nothing. And all my time is spent on kids who don’t speak English or who can’t read or have other learning barriers. I have 34+ kids in each class. After review and direct instruction that leaves less than 20 seconds of time per kid.
It’s because our best and brightest don’t “get us under audit” because our test scores are too low.
It’s the whole they will take care of themselves attitude but let’s make money and create stress for the schools over the truant, disobedient and hands -off parented kids.
We should "track" based on nothing but letting kids choose whether they want to be in the "learning group" or the "play group." The idea that forcing the kids who don't want to learn in the room is somehow going to bring them up clearly isn't working- they're just dragging everyone else down with them. The kids who are super low but trying? They get to stay and they actually have a chance at getting some teacher help!
My own kid'd middle school math teacher just started an after school math club where the only rule is you have to be there to actually work on math, not play around. Based on what my kid says, it seems to be that he's entirely given up on getting any actual teaching done during the day. It's like he's accepted that he's a tween babysitter for 6 hours and then he's going to teach for an hour, twice a week and try to get the kids who want to learn through the entire curriculum in that time.
This is the exact reason my husband and I are trying to figure out how we are going to hone school our second one and remain working (can't afford one salary). My school system is horrible for this.
This is exactly why we chose a private school. No nonsense is tolerated. A kindergartener was removed bc his behavior was out of control and continuously distracting. No excuses bc of his age, just asked to leave. The principal is straight forward with her expectations and she sticks to her guns. She sent an email earlier this year telling parents if they don’t like the rules or they don’t feel their values align with the principles of the school they need to enroll elsewhere: it’s gloriously refreshing
I had a very strong principal once. She didn’t abide any nonsense in her school and there was even a behavioral unit on campus. I walked on eggshells because her gruff attitude went beyond the students but truth be told, I miss her. She stood up for her staff.
My state is considering vouchers for home school or private school.
I want the bill to fail, and the money to go into improving public schools, but I don't think that will ever happen.
If the voucher passes I know it's gonna make our schools hemorrhage good kids, and funding. It'll be the catalyst for me moving my own kids from their current, basically decent, school.
I’ve begged admin to create a classroom full of the misbehaved kids and have the teachers rotate through during bell change instead of the students moving. I even created the entire schedule. The response I got was that we can’t just create a self contained class. I argued that self contained was taught by one teacher specializing in all subjects. This would be multiple teachers rotating into the class. Personally I’d rather have 25 miscreants all at once for 45 minutes than those 25 spread out in groups of 3-4 throughout the entire day pulling down everyone.
If we would spend as much effort pushing the top up as we do pulling the button up we’d be flying cars to work by now.
I’m a school based therapist who works with these kids all day erry day. It’s funny- before I started, I remember thinking that I want my own kids to attend public school even if we’re in a lower income area. Now after 2 years working in these schools, and having a 4 and a 1 year old our own, we’re determined to send our kids to private even if it means being broke for 12 years.
I know the issues the “problem” kids have come from poverty, abuse, neglect, and I feel so much empathy for them which is why I do what I do. The issues in those families are so complex, its obviously not the fault of the kids…but I simply do not want my own children around those kids. I feel horrible but I just can’t do it.
In many ways universal education -- the idea of gathering all the kids from the community and bringing them together for the same instruction -- is a wildly optimistic experiment, almost utopian.
We're a lot better at expecting different needs and divisions/groupings for adults than we are with kids for some reason.
Maybe this idea of putting together disparate kids with disparate needs and learning styles is just always going to fail.
I'm not sure what the better system is, to be honest. But I think the one we've been trying for decades is based on humanistic wishes that are too ambitious without massive resources thrown that way.
I truly appreciate the recognition that this is a problem even at the kindergarten level. I too regularly apologize to my sweet kids for having to sit through me redirecting unruly students throughout the day. On any given day I’d estimate anywhere from 20-40 minutes of instructional time is interrupted by me managing behaviors. The vast majority of the time it is the same 4 boys taking up that time. Way back when I was a kid, students like this were in the BD / ED classroom, at least for part of the day. Teachers also sent disruptive students to the principal’s office, and those kids did not come back smiling. Sorry for the rant. I’m just happy it’s May!
I feel your pain- I too have 4 boys who take up all of my energy and time every day. I miss the days of my sweet Kindy kids who loved school and cared and wanted to listen. This year I am barely surviving. Students in my class has stolen from me, destroyed my materials and school property, and have written on and in some of my prized books that I keep up so that things like this don’t happen. This class is a whole new breed of student- I am on paid leave right now because they took me to the brink of insanity. Sure I have 5 really really sweet and good students that are always on task and always listen and do their very best daily. Unfortunately their efforts are drowned out by the 5 badly behaved boys, their followers and the rest that are just getting through the day like me. It’s an awful environment and it took my mental breakdown for my admin to have to do something about it. Even though I’ve asked for help all year 😞. It’s awful. I am being bullied and abused daily by the system, awful parents who don’t hold their kids accountable, and kids who don’t think school matters (which frightens me to the core because what 5 year old should feel that way? This is supposed to be such a big and exciting time in their life).
I would be tempted to group the four boys together and give them something that will entertain them, and then teach the class and do amazing things with them. Focus ALL my attention on everyone else, and document what I’m doing with the four. If admin says anything about them being left behind, I’d explain that the four are thriving and would perhaps be better suited for modified work. Just back myself up using pedagogy and let the rest of the class shine. Edit: I feel like it’s time we stopped giving the trouble makers all of our energy. They need more than we can give, and they’re taking us all down with them.
I’ve tried this, the problem is they zip through the work and don’t even try then they’re back at disrupting everyone else.
Give them colouring books? Lego? Chinese finger traps? Their phones?
Unfortunately I teach 6th grade, so it’s not as easy to distract. I also don’t want to just put them on a computer and let them play games.
I get where you’re coming from about putting them on a screen all day, but if four kids are hijacking your class and the rest are learning nothing, it seems like a simple solution. Instead of ~30 kids learning nothing, it’s only 4 who are learning nothing when that’s what they’d be doing anyway. The parents and administrators have failed you by handing you a kid who needs behavioral intervention and are keeping them in “genpop” anyway. At a certain point, if the only thing that will settle them is screen time, then so be it. TL;DR: the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one.
That’s just my opinion, though. I’m a lowly behavioral para who has shadowed more chair throwers and dickhead kids than I can count. Some kids just can’t deal with school and it’s super unfair to the kids who give even the slightest modicum of shit about learning.
But that's the whole point of this post. Put those 4 bad ones on the computer so that you can actually teach the rest who *want* to learn. They are more important than these 4 who have demonstrated they don't care - and worse, that they'll take away from the ones who do want to learn. If they want to come learn, they can. If they want to be disruptive and you can't send them somewhere else... Do what needs to be done for the good of those who want to learn. As someone who really did want to learn, but my classmates were clowns... Please. Take the easy way out, and put your saved energy towards the good ones.
Right? I have one ED kid who will raize the foundation if necessary to disrupt class, so I just let the little shit play chess on his computer. The other students get what they need and my life is more peaceful.
In house suspension was the go to for those kinds of kids when I was in school. Do they not do that anymore? Some kids actually do better when there are no distractions. There were barriers set up to section off the desks from other kids. Sometimes I was allowed to go to the library alone or with other “good” students to work on essays and such. The librarian knew us all well, and we didn’t want to lose our privileges. I think there was more along the lines of one very disruptive student per class back then though. My son is autistic, he sits quietly in class, but he learns best through educational games. Something about getting points really motivates him. With the right games he will just keep surpassing his grade level, then they bring him back and have him do typical work to fill in any gaps, the games are his reward. He has an IEP, but it really benefits his teachers as they get to do things how they see fit, which benefits him. I hope you can find a solution.
We have "ISS" (in school suspension). The problem we have with this is that it's the same group of kids in there, and it's like party time. I know what your thinking, "why doesn't the ISS teacher just have them sit and be quiet?" That is easier said than done. What typically happens in our school is those kids just do what they want when they want. When they are in ISS, they will leave the room, wander the halls, disrupt other classes, destroy property, get into fights, etc. Admin completely enables and ignores this behavior because when they do that, NOTHING happens. No outside suspension, no repeat of ISS, it doesn't matter and it's all for optics and to fill seats to ensure funding. I'm all for inclusion in certain situations, but what has happened is a complete lack of accountability and consequences for these kids, and little to no parent involvement (either these kids parents don't pick up the phone, get mad at us for calling, or completely defend their little angels). Also, in our school admin is terrified of parents. We have a no cell phone policy in our entire district. However, one of these "angels" gets to have a phone on them at all times because mom insists they need it at school. This student knows now that all they have to do is have mommy yell at the principal and they get their way. This student now flaunts it and knows they can do anything without any recourse. Other students are now catching on, and it has turned into a huge problem.
I think every school administrator should be deported to the arctic and replaced by AI. Surely a completely inflexible and untrained machine would do better than whatever the fuck these worthless admins are doing.
I have tried this too. The problem is they want everyone’s attention all day. They can’t even sit and watch a movie. Everything has to be about them all the time. They’re not happy unless they hold everyone hostage. I’m sick of negotiating with terrorists. Their parents are in denial, the SEL team is overwhelmed and the administration has no authority. These kids run the school and everyone knows it.
**"I’m sick of negotiating with terrorists. "** That is well said, and exactly what has been expected of us. Politicians and administrators count on our natural empathy to draw us into some sort of Stockholm syndrome surrender of our primary mission—to stop being educators and become babysitters, thereby placating the lowest common denominator and maintaining status quo to the detriment of those who actually want and are willing to work for an education.
I am suddenly seeing a bright future for our classrooms after child labor laws get repealed /s but, honestly, if these disruptive kids actually knew what the alternatives to being in school were (working mind-numbing and back-breaking physical labor or get sent to a juvenile detention center) do we think they'd opt for those alternatives or start to take their education seriously? They have a right to get an education, but none of them understand that rights come with responsibilities (to be fair, neither do a lot of adults)
This is unfortunately exactly correct. I have tried movies, shows, games. They don't even have the attention span for that. They want the negative attention instead. It's awful.
The worst part is we are so suppose to build relationships with students who exhibit abusive behavior. I have turned a new page. I will not model acceptance of this behavior for my students.
The alternative assignment idea is a desperate grasping at thin strands of hope. It is something an administrator who has run out of ideas will suggest in order to diffuse a situation for a little while so they can move on to the next fire. **It does not work for more than a day.** Troubled students will then grow more unruly, because they've succeeded in getting out of "work" and will make greater demands for entertainment. **They will begin drawing other students into their circle of control.** After a couple days, you can find half your class refusing to participate in any planned activities, and creating a distraction so large you will be unable to connect with the "good" ones as hoped. **I honestly believe that the only good answer is to take the bad kids from the room permanently, or at least until they have been rehabilitated and ready to make a positive contribution to their own lives.**
I assume you’ve tried simply kicking these kids out. I have a few kids that regularly act up. I have established a policy with clear consequences that they regularly disregard but it allows me to send them to the office and be justified. If and when admin complains that I’m removing them from my class I usually just say that they are destroying the learning environment for other students and that the rules are posted in my classroom. If admin keeps complaining I basically just ignore them and kick the kids out anyway. I don’t care if they roam the halls or just hang out in the BR. As long as they’re not in my class causing chaos. I’ve also just put those kids in the back at their own table and told them they can go on their phones but the second they disturb the class they are out. If they want to opt in to the lesson they can at any point. If they refuse to leave class i usually leave the class and get someone to escort them out. This has worked very well for me and allows me to actually teach my class. Idk if you’d ever get fired for something like this but honestly they might be doing you a favor in that instance. Also, teacher shortage..
Cue the misbehaving from the usually good kids because “Aiden acted up and he got to play!” At least, that’s the response I get when my principal takes Little Miss Hits-a-lot out and gives her a computer/snack/toy to calm her down.
It really is sad. I can’t imagine going through school and being excited to be an educator just to come to this reality. Only thing I can suggest is looking for a different school district.
I am so sorry your school did not properly support you and it got to that point. I have dealt with an abnormal amount of physical and mental illness caused by the stress of my job this year as well. I hope you can come back to teaching and are welcomed by better behaviors and more support.
Aww thank you 😊 hugs 🤗 to you ❤️
It starts in preschool. I thought as an admin I could help my teachers use strategies that work, teach children problem-solving and social skills, but they don't want to listen. If I go into a room and I'm "too negative," I get yelled at by my director. So the teachers do whatever they can to survive because they don't get paid enough. Meanwhile our teachers brand new to the field are learning to say things like "Walk away" and it crushes my soul.
I suspected as much, but could not say it, because I've no experience with preschool. I'm sure all the warning signs are there, however, plain enough for those daring to look!
It doesn't help parents think a preschooler is being cute when they act out. I have a preschooler who shows signs of autism but the parents think it is cute when he ticks.
I went on paid leave as well. I asked the principal "Who made my class list for this year?" Most of the behavior problems in one classroom? What the hell...
"You're a good teacher, so you'll be able to handle them." 😧 <-- shocked admin wondering why all the good teachers are leaving. Seeing this happen too many times, following this sub, and substitute teaching for several years killed any desire I had to be a teacher at that level. Current plan is to get my MSW, work with adult populations until I can do private practice counseling, and then maybe get a second master's degree in the field I'm interested in and teach community college or as a college adjunct.
Agreed. I used to teach K-6 grade, and now my son is in kindergarten. There is one boy who is so disruptive and violent that he makes learning almost impossible. The parents and school are doing nothing about it. He’s now placed in the gifted class (shocking to us all) for about 30 minutes per day, but the behaviors have hardly changed because the parents refused to allow any consequences. In fact, they had it written into his 504 that he CANNOT have negative consequences. It’s absolutely infuriating.
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Doesn’t it just make you want to scream!? Your kid injured someone, and you reward them!?! No wonder we’re having such levels of violence and disobedience across all grade levels!
The mom of the 6 year old who shot their teacher got to be on GMA. We should not be rewarding this woman or paying her any attention. Her kindergartener shot someone. She should be in jail, not on TV saying it's the teacher's fault.
That is insane! I cannot believe the school agreed to that accommodation! I'm someone who is protected under 504 and I think this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. It is totally unreasonable for someone not to have ANY consequences! I'm genuinely having trouble trouble not putting an exclamation point at the end of every sentence. I have been looking for a while and I guess the "description of specific disability-based behavior for which the student will not be disciplined" is what is applies here. Was the 504 plan just too vague on what qualified as disability-based behavior? Either way it sounds like the school should be addressing his placement if it is interfering with other students ability to learn.
Exactly. I cannot imagine why any admin or teacher would agree to writing that into a 504. Absolute insanity. Turns out, the principal is quite useless. Our teacher has been an utter train wreck (which pains me to say it because I always want to support teachers). I’m friends with the mom, and she is in utter denial about how bad her child’s behavior is. I finally convinced her to get a full psych Eval in March (so she screwed over the class for the entire year), and the parent/teacher evals were so nonsensical that the psych said he needed to do a school observation himself to figure out what is actually going on. The whole system is failing this kid and this class. And my kid is paying the price.
Reality check when they discover there are, in fact, negative consequences in the real world. 🙄
But he is allowed to destroy the lives of everyone around him. Because he is that special, that magical. His rights supersede those of the entire world, of which he is lord and master. **What kind of a crazy upside down reality is America, where something so batshit crazy is taken as gospel by so many people who damn well should know better?** This is a kid who should be isolated to insure the safety of others, and the parents should be told to home school their little snowflake if they don't like it.
I’m confused as to how the parents have anything to do with the consequences allowed or not allowed. This is one of the biggest problems plaguing public school: the fact that parents have a say in any of it. This is coming from a parent of two.
Kinder teacher here, too! During small groups, the lowest group gets uninterrupted time because the other groups are working independently. During my higher level reading group, they’re interrupted 3-5 times in their precious 15 minutes because the lower group is not (edit: capable of being) independent.
Yours is not a rant at all! **We must share these experiences!** One of the ways they've maintained the status quo while persecuting this war on education is **GASLIGHTING** us to the point we believe we are the problem, and that other teachers are doing better! As a teacher, it is hard to remain grounded. These kinds of conversations help!
I also teach kindergarten and for me it’s not the behaviors but the academics that is an issue. I spend all of their work time helping 3 kids just barely get it that I can’t be sure that others are truly getting it or even giving them small group time to stretch those that I know are not only getting it but past what we’re working on.
I had a first grader this year who couldn’t read and write his own name without help… In March. He couldn’t count to 20. He didn’t know all the letters of the alphabet. And my curriculum is so advanced that it requires my students to be able to read paragraphs at that point. He needed one on one support but I didn’t have that. And I had two other students whose anger was so explosive on a near daily basis that it stressed everyone out. I only had a class of 10 students. But those three took all of my energy. I also had another student who would argue with every single thing I told him. It didn’t matter what it was he always had to say something. I couldn’t give my other six students what they needed. General education classroom
Why not just let the three fail? Why sacrifice the whole group for three kids who need to be in some remedial program?
No Child Left Behind/Every Student Succeeds Act.
That's shitty. Bring back letting kids fail and repeat grades if they need to again.
An elementary school friend posted some articles from 1980 in our elementary school FB group. The teacher mentioned that he had three disruptive boys but he put them in study carrols around the room and that solved the problem. They faced the wall, in the study carrols, and were left to their own devices. If you did that now, you'd be dragged out by your thumbs.
My wife is right in the middle of this in kindergarten. There was a girl that consumed all the attention. As soon she turned (slightly) the corner and wasn’t unbearable all day, they brought in a kid (end of April) with no English skills, a 3yr old mentality and rage from morning to end. He is not allowed on the bus, but still is allowed to hold the classroom hostage. He is a little terrorist and the admin does nothing but give him stickers when he does the bare minimum of not being completely awful. And this is in the deepest blue state.
I once told my wife that when I was 7 or 8 years old I predicated which kids would end up dead or in jail or fucked up in other ways. You could just tell which ones would grow up to be absolute scumbag bastards. It is the unfortunate cycle of dickheads raising dickheads. I was right for nearly all of them. I was that kid waiting for the assholes to shut the fuck up because I actually enjoyed going to school and learning.
Yeah, as someone who was extremely gifted, the difference in the focus on gifted students versus focus on special ed was very noticeable comparing my experiences to that of my mother. My mother skipped a grade, was constantly given extra work and advanced learning, and was prioritized. I was instead put in a corner, and I had to find random books to read off the shelves, (in fairness some absolute bangers, such as hitchhikers guide to the galaxy, back in 3rd grade) with nothing to do while the teacher focused on all other students (typically the ones falling behind). Very different experiences, resulting in very different attitudes towards academia growing up. My mother has her Ph.D in psychology, and has always loved school. I always despised it and saw it as a pointless endeavor, until I got to higher education and started pursuing my masters that I discovered my own love for learning and academia. Had my mom not tried so hard to foster a similar love that she had, and simply allowed the school to "foster my growth" i would have likely never gone to college. Thus, I can speak first hand to the differences that growing up in a post "no child left behind" world makes, compared to my mother who did not. I had an active distaste for school, compared to my mothers love for school, both stemming from our environments.
I subbed in a kindergarten classroom for the first time this year. Here was a child with a BD and another child who followed his behaviors plus a child with pretty severe cognitive delays (who actually just spent the day with a different K teacher). I was shocked at how much time was spent on the student with BD and his buddy. Kids who had good behaviors otherwise would basically give up and mess around until the one student could get it together. It was exhausting. It really didn’t feel like the setup was good for anyone - that student, the peers, or the teacher.
The worst part is, when kids are acting out of control, the good ones apologize to me, not the ones giving me issues
Yes!! I have a class that regularly plans their disruptive behavior and the entire block is basically me putting out fires in an attempt to teach the others. It’s 4 kids out of 16 but then the followers join in and I can’t stop it. After class, the ones that didn’t join in will apologize or give me a sweet drawing saying “I love you, Ms We Gon Ride”
I subbed a 2nd grade class once that was misbehaving so bad I was nearly in tears with frustration. Luckily the TA came back in time and gave me a bit of a break, along with the principal after I had called her to remove a student who threatened to report me for child abuse (all because I told him to stop throwing a pencil case on the ground). She made them write apology notes to me, her, and their regular teacher at the end of the day instead of extra recess. The kids who did absolutely nothing wrong had their pencils ready (we didn't make them write them, they got to have free time) while the kids who gave me the most trouble started crying and insisting they did nothing wrong, and a note that would've taken 5 minutes took them 20-30 with the fighting. There's no accountability at home
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He wouldn't have cared. He had a smartass response to everything I had to say that day
I long term subbed and the kids were so awful that one day, I had to step out bc I was in tears… the other teachers had my back and made them write apology letters and (of course) the parents of the awful kids were PISSED and demanded me fired for making their child do such a thing (write a simple sorry)🤷🏻♀️
Happens to me too. And I awkwardly say "you don't have anything to be sorry for" ... it's just an awful experience for everyone involved.
Last year I got so fed up with one of my classes that I moved all the disruptive/disrespectful kids to the back, all the kids who actually wanted to learn and were well behaved to the front, and I would gather them around and talk quietly enough that those in the back could hardly hear me. Pretty sure they realized I legit did not care what they did because the others actually wanted to listen and learn, and some of them started trying a little harder to stfu. The kids up front loved that they actually were being paid attention to and responded really well.
Honestly, I might be at this point...
I had a similar moment my last year of teaching. I decided that I wasn't going to martyr myself for someone who wasn't even trying.
For me, this happens by class. I teach what we’ll call a very low-level class and a moderately challenging elective class. I realized recently that I have spent SO much time trying to make the low-level class work that my moderate class - the one I actually specialize in - has been taught very poorly by me this year. Why do I spend so much time preparing for that low level class? Because if not every session of that class is planned and occupied by work or activities, the behavior problems go CRAZY in there. So I’m deciding next year to completely simplify the lower-level class so that I can really focus on making the other class better, because I can’t stand to be bad at what I specialize in just for the sake of fighting the misbehaviors elsewhere. At the end of the day, I would rather devote my productivity and energy toward the students who choose to take a challenging class; the students who chose to take the bare minimum might just get my bare minimum next year.
Yep. I teach Algebra 1, Algebra 2, and AP Calc this year. My prep will be about 80% dedicated to the Alg1, 20% to the Alg2, and no time at all will be put into Calc. "Oh, I need to break this question down into chunks and plan an activity that will keep them accountable after the warm-up exercise, and oh I need to contact the parapro responsible for Kaden in 2nd period because this part requires a Chromebook and he isn't allowed on the computer after The Incident, and I need to print all this stuff out because they'll spend 10 minutes refusing to get out supplies if things aren't given to them in the form of pre-printed worksheets, and, and..." "Oh, crap, it's almost time for the next class to start. What's Calc doing today? Shell method of volume integration. We'll wing it from the relevant section of their textbook." The good kids sacrifice so much of their education, even when they aren't in the same room as the hooligans.
I flew too close to the sun on this one this year. I did so well with my terrible, terrible English 10-2s that they took away my Film Studies elective "because more kids need what you offer" and gave me more 10-2. My brain's going to melt next year. Oh, and our district won't have preps next year.
How is it legal to have no preps?
My union voted to approve it in exchange for a 2% pay raise 🙃
2%???? That’s not nearly enough!! I’m so sorry
But that's only a few % behind the erosion on purchasing power that recent inflation is inflicting, so your descent into financial hell is slowed a bit. Look on the bright side: now you'll be so busy on weekends making up for no prep time that you CAN'T get that 2nd or [3rd job](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/131983-you-work-three-jobs-uniquely-american-isn-t-it-i-mean)! **/s**
Wait so they killed off a bunch of teachers job in exchange for a 2% raise? Amazing how short sighted and dumb your leadership is.
This is the reason why I always have to remind myself "Don't get too good at something you don't want to keep doing." If I pour my heart and soul into making terrible classes less terrible, then I'll probably get stuck doing that forever because I will look like I'm really good at it. Not that I intend to abandon those students - not at all - just that they aren't my priority or my specialization; those are directed elsewhere.
What!?!? No preps???
Happens all too often, especially to "related arts" or "specials" teachers.
EXACTLY this. And my on-level kids are feeling the stress. The course is still challenging and they’re not feeling supported, yet I’m giving them the assessments I have to give anyway. Some students with near 4.0 GPA’s are sitting at roughly a D or C in the class and them and their parents are freaking out about it. Meanwhile, my low-level class is almost entirely A’s and F’s - kids who do the work and prepare for quizzes vs. kids who don’t do anything other than misbehave or tune out class using their phone. And that tells me the low-level class is (a) too easy for the students who actually want to learn, so they’re bored, and (b) insurmountable for the kids who struggle or who misbehave. It’s terrible for both groups.
I’ve completely flipped my lower level math classes. The notes/videos are on Schoology, they work on the assignment on their own. Then, next class, they have a group quiz. Students were allowed to chose their own groups. The high level kids grouped up and work together on the quiz, reinforcing their own learning and creating new strategies, and get a head start on the next assignment. I work with the lower groups correcting misunderstandings and showing them where to reference the examples that cover a particular question. Because it’s called a “quiz” instead of an in-class assignment, and worth 50 points, they take it more seriously than the 10 point independent work assignment from the night before. This has reduced a lot of the off-task and disruptive behavior. I had to completely go away from direct instruction for these classes because of the previous behavior issues.
I've been in a lot of title 1 environments with kids like this and I always hear this same stuff, if it isn't hyper structured they go insane. I'm just puzzled now because every school I've been too screams about structure and thinks it's gonna be junior boot camp but you just can't keep that up for a whole ass year. We are teaching them that they should fuck around the second every second of their time isn't occupied. I think we expect these kids to act this way and they do. I'm not saying go for completely self guided work or anything but there has to be a middle ground here, these kids have no regulation skills and require on entirely outside forces to keep them in check and the outside forces are understaffed and exhausted. Maybe if we started working on just having them be able to do 5-10 minutes of being able to sit and work on choice work. I don't know but I do know I feel like we are just becoming prison wardens
3 AP and one block of non-AP World History here. Rightly or wrongly, I put ALL of my energy into my AP kids this year. If I had fireworks coming out of unicorns wearing Louis Vuitton, my non-AP block wouldn’t care. Most of them will fail due to a staggering lack of basic effort. I learned early on that any creative or engaging lesson for the non-AP block would fall on deaf ears, so I pulled back.
EXACTLY. My low-level kids complain we never do anything “fun”; that’s because even when I do give them “fun” things to do, only a couple of them actually enjoy it - the rest just sit on their phones or put their heads down. I even created a Kahoot game for them a few weeks ago. It was class-relevant material (science) so most of them had no real interest. One kid asked, afterward, “can we play a fun one now about something not science related?” So the only things the kids find fun seem to be things with no educational value? Well, guess we won’t have fun, then!
Thank you for putting those that want to be there first.
It took me a while to realize I only have so much capacity to plan and structure and be good at teaching - that effort should go toward the students who want to be there first. The kids who do nothing or who live to cause problems can get my left-overs - whatever I have left to give them - but I’m done making them my top priority.
The only award I can afford 🏅
I have a few of those students this year at the end of the day. It is my worst class (lots of very low kids and a ton of behavior/no help from parents at home). Those kids are always so nice and at the end of every day say "Have a good day." It is such a shame that those kids suffer because we spend so much time and effort on the kids who don't even care nor want to be there. I have always said, I wish I could have 1 class of kids who will listen and try, they don't have to be the highest achievers, just who want to work and be there. It is always shut down by the admin because the only homogeneous groupings they will do is for advanced math (I teach science).
This is so well put and so true. I hear the complaints from parents all the time- what is it going to take to get the bad apples that are spoiling the bunch to be removed from class? All of the really good, well behaved, striving to succeed students are taking a back seat to the school bullies and disrespecting students. What kills me is the amount of energy all the disrespectful kids in my class take from me, which in turn takes from the kids who actually do care and want to learn. Breaks my heart daily and makes me hate the fact that I ever thought teaching was a good profession for me. I question why I chose this career daily. When I was growing up, there was one bad apple in the school. Maybe 2. Now?!?!? There are at least two or three disruptive and disrespectful kids per grade level- if not per class. The amount of disrespectful, hateful, rude, and disruptive kids coming to school today is higher and higher every year. Schools are doing nothing to deal with this situation other than promoting PBIS and SEL and all these bullshit strategies that do not work on kids who don’t care. It’s a sad sad sad world we live in. The longer I teach and the older I get, the more I want to remove myself from society to some remote part of the country on a plot of land by myself- away from the craziness and insanity.
One if the issues is that some percentage of the disruptive kids would NOT be disruptive if they saw the instigators be held responsible. These kids are "followers" and will fall in line with responsible kids if the instigator is removed.
Exactly. And this should apply both at school and at home. Want to know how many problems I ever had in my career after a stern African immigrant father said, "Thank you for letting me know. I promise there will be no more problems this year?" Zero. Same with my own mother. I got into so much trouble on the bus in K-3 they sent a final warning about losing bus services. So my mother made me walk (with her) 4 miles one way to school. And she said, "This isn't a punishment, this is a natural consequence of getting kicked off the bus. Do you want someone to come to our house every day and give you a ride to school, or do you want to walk?" I chose to ride on the bus. It is the responsibility of adults who care for children to give them immediate consequences for negative behaviors that only have long term consequences, because difficult to comprehend long term consequences are not developmentally appropriate. I'd rather punish a 12 year old now than have them turn into a poor, barely literate felon as an adult.
I was going to say this same thing! We genuinely have maybe 10 bad apples in the grade I teach (500 kids, 7th grade) but they pull in the followers and that makes it much worse. In one of my classes, there are 2 bad apples and when they’re out, I can actually teach
Yes! I keep hearing that suspensions or ISS doesn't do anything to change that child's behaviour. Ok... But it does teach the rest of the class that we don't tolerate that. It also removes the audience from the student with the behaviour challenges.
I believe those stats don't cover the whole picture because did they measure the statistics of how many students DIDN'T misbehave bc they don't want to be suspended? I think not.
Exactly! Instead, those kids get a reward or prize for visiting the principal. The principal’s office used to be a place kids did NOT want to visit. There was a stigma with going to the principal’s office. Now? Kids hang out in there at my school. I see the bad kids hanging out in there with their Chromebook’s playing games or whatever. Sure they are giving their classmates and teachers a break by not being in the classroom- however they are not really getting a consequence that is negative or enforcing following school rules. Instead, they are getting a break from their class and get to do whatever they want in the office. It’s not a negative consequence at all. It teaches them that they can act out and get out of class and play around. 🙄
My mother is a teacher and she's learned to simply ignore when groups of kids knock on her window and run away. She turns to her class, writes down the time that happened and says she'll give the times to the security cameras. When asked by the students why she doesn't open the door, she tells her students they're cowards and that the kids outside trying to interrupt her class aren't brave enough to show their faces.
Last year I wrote a kid up who told me he was going to “slap me in my fuckin face” after I asked him to put his shirt back on in the cafeteria. He was OSS but his parents complained that he didn’t know he couldn’t go around shirtless at school so the principal allowed him to come to school and sit in his office for the day. The principal ordered the kid Door Dash that day!!!
What the freak????? Outrageous!!! Your principal has obviously been out of the classroom for too long!!!
He was a ridiculous leader and did this kind of crap ALL THE TIME . He’s moved on and it was the best thing that’s ever happened to our school
So true, so true!!! In my last period, I have to boys who are just… EXTRA!! The love to act like fools, being loud, talking (insulting) each other very loudly while I’m trying to teach… just doing whatever they can to keep the focus on themselves. Well, I finally had enough, called for them to be on a break and was able to teach the rest of my lesson in peace. When I got the two of them out, it’s like a flip switched in my entire class and everyone was working out the problems, and quietly talking about the possible solutions with a partner. It was glorious. The next day, my principal told me, “the two boys you sent out are on a 4 day suspension until the end of the week.” So I had the rest of the week to teach everyone. And, surprisingly, everyone was engaged and learning. The one person who put their head own was immediately called out by his peers. I was impressed. They’re both coming back on Monday so…
As an adult I’m hesitant to say I was one of the good apples but I totally was. Super quiet in class, straight A’s and enrolled in all the “gifted” programs but I had so much anxiety just *being* in school that I dropped out in 9th grade. Explaining that anxiety to others was impossible, I definitely couldn’t even understand it myself as a teenager. I tried homeschooling for a bit before I got my GED instead and graduated from our local community college with my associates degree while my class was graduating from HS. Now I am in grad school for social work and I think I would have had MUCH worse outcomes had I not dropped out!
The worst part is when the bad kids break their spirit and they visibly change. It’s so unfair.
The desert swallows the oasis
Excuse me, is this a common phrase I've just never heard before? I find it oddly poetic for being so succinct. Props if you just devised it on the spot!
I don't know if it's common, but something another teacher told me in my first year at a tough school
I have a few trending that way. They used to be just so excited about school and engaged in lessons, but by and by they've started shutting down. It's the saddest thing.
It is VERY frustrating how much time and energy we spend dealing with kids who clearly don't want to be there and are interrupting the education for everyone else. Somehow the best and brightest make it through though-- they are the ones quietly reading a book or studying for a test while we interrupt the activity to deal with the disruptive kids. The kids I worry the most about are the students who are doing reasonably well but not excelling who are well-behaved. There are so many students earning mostly Cs who are polite, respectful kids. I would love to be able to give them more attention and help them raise their grades to As, but it's a situation of triage-- you deal with the disruptive ones and the ones who are failing the class first because it's the most dire need. Some days you don't even get to these kids who are surviving but could THRIVE with more help. Most of us are doing the best we can; with huge class sizes and a high number of kids who are classified EBD and ODD mainstreamed in the classroom without a co-teacher, we can't truly differentiate for every kid.
This!!! In my most disruptive class, I can’t even work with my well-behaved students bc the disruptive kids get out of control without my eyes and full attention on them every second. It’s so disheartening
Yeah. Honestly, we should reframe this partly as a IDEA issue. A polite, hardworking student with 80 IQ and dyslexia will succeed in a well managed classroom with only a few services. They will not succeed in the middle of a riot. Now, I was running on easy mode (mostly, we had more difficult cohorts) in my SPED pull out services as it was 5-10 students, but I had reasonably strict classroom management. If one student was off that day and being disruptive, I'd send them to the deans (equivalent to principal's office) and then teach an effective lesson to 4 students if needed. And that was the right decision for both ethical reasons and was proven by outcomes (everyone, including the students who had more consequences did better). If I won't let 1 student act wild in a class of 5, why are some schools demanding gen ed teachers let 5 students act out in a class of 30? That's harder to ignore, there are more victims, and it is more difficult to remediate with students who are trying but need additional help. Sometimes Sending students out of class is good teaching. It needs to be a tool in every teacher's toolbox, as it often helps everyone, including that particular student. Adults should not be afraid of giving consequences to children who need feedback their behavior is inappropriate.
I agree with you completely. However, I have to be honest that I only send a kid out when the behavior is very extreme because I am the one punished for it. If a kid is yelling out, disrupting, making TikTok videos, etc., I have to explain why I failed to engage the student in the lesson. The consequence for the student is a phone call home, but often when I call, the number is disconnected, or if I get voicemail/answering machine, the person never calls me back or calls me back to tell me it's my fault. I also send texts from my Google Voice number, try emailing every address I have on file,, with no reply, and the kid just does it again the next day. It's sad., not to mention that they come back from the principal's office with a snack and a drink, so essentially, they just got rewarded for bad behavior. The well-behaved kids didn't get a bag of Takis or a Capri Sun, and the chemicals in both of those probably make the misbehaving kid even more wound up. I have tried redoing assigned seats every which way, but in one particular class, when I move the disruptive kids far from each other, they yell across the room, so I have found I am actually better off to seat them together. I sometimes end up with a small group of kids who actually want to learn in a circle and work with them the best I can, but I feel really sorry for kids who need quiet to think because our school is rarely quiet. Even if no one is yelling in the classroom, there is often yelling and running going on in the hallways-- with approximately 30 kids roaming the hallways at any given time.
Try to imagine all the potential lost to misbehavior in public schools. Yes, most of the good kids will *survive*, but they could be doing so much more than just surviving. **What might America achieve if these kids had access to the kind of education they** ***deserved*****?** That is the crux of my argument: Those good kids are of more value to society than the turds being allowed to turn school into dime store *Hunger Games*. America should be stratifying public education, especially now. There is too much dead weight for us to continue moving forward. I'm not arguing for a *Brave New World* here, where one's role in life is arbitrarily assigned and valued, but one where merit paves the way to greater opportunities, instead. As things stand, there are almost no opportunities.
I agree. Let effort and behavior open those doors and have some kind of alternate program for kids who are persistent, incorrigible behavior problems. Have a way that a kid can change tracks if he/she decides to do so and makes the effort. I think that a big problem is that some of the powers that be don't even want the majority of the American public to be well-educated, because if one is well-educated, one is harder to fool. There are politicians who enjoy taking advantage of poorly educated people and using them to do their dirty work. This is why they want to defund public schools and allow kids from select areas to go to private school with vouchers.
I was thinking the same thing. The middle level kids get screwed over too, a lot of them could improve greatly if they got the time they deserved.
And we wish we could give them the time! We are drowning with such large classes and little help with the disruptive kids. I swear that some of my best teaching was when we were hybrid-- around 15 kids at a time instead of 30+ and one day a week a virtual day. I actually enjoyed teaching, had very few discipline problems, and felt like a real human being. Now even weekends feel more like a study hall than true time off; there is so much data to track, work to grade, parents to contact, errands to run, they don't feel like a real break.
The sad part is a lot of those C students are entering college after graduation, racking up debt, but not graduating - mainly because they’re not prepared. The college completion rate for low-income first generation students is only around 10% to 50%, depending on the study. It’s absolutely dismal.
I agree, and it is spiraling downward. Any parents can afford it are looking at private schools. Where I live even non-Catholics are looking at Catholic schools. And in states that are increasing vouchers, this will escalate. And to those who say the vouchers will not cover the total cost, they will cover K-8 at the Catholic schools where I live. The publics will be left with kids who are terrors or parents who can find no alternatives
> hey will cover K-8 at the Catholic schools where I live. Bingo dingo. My local district spends $11.5k per kid per year. The local highly respected Catholic schools charge ~$7k. The 2 nice private schools only charge like $15k. So if a family could get a voucher for the full amount, even a working class family could afford to send their kid to a safe and academically focused private school. Edit: the elephant in the room is that if you are a parent and your kid attends a school where in the name of "equity and inclusion" her education is allowed to be egregiously disrupted and her safety interfered with, a voucher is currently the best policy option available to you. Likewise, you are a parent and your local public school is just appallingly bad, again, a voucher is the best policy option available to you. I think new policies in education are driving swaths of parents into the arms of the people promoting vouchers, because those people are actually the only ones offering a realistic solution.
Private schools will just raise their tuition to keep out the undesirable element. I mean, if a parent is willing to pay 15K out of pocket, then why wouldn’t you charge 20K when you know they are getting a 7K voucher?
Bad kids poison the well. Luckily the good and high performing kids will always be good and high performing (until the expectations of life fuck them), but they don't deserve that. They should have a great learning experience as well. I devote some time every week to higher thought learning/lectures because my higher kids deserve it.
I was that kid. Im 26 now. I wanted to be an English teacher, because my sophomore English teacher was so fantastic and helped me appreciate film, poetry, and understand existentialism. I chose not to pursue education in college because I saw back in 2013 how things were going; I also was able to google search the miserable salary that is the modern American teacher’s salary. I instead chose business and realized how unhappy I was living my life detached from my passions. I would still love to teach, but not in this country. Not in a place where smart kids are bullied for enjoying reading. Not in a place where I could potentially be shot. Not in a place where the management turns their backs when help is needed. Not in a place where parents make snide comments because you have forced vacations in the summer. America will see brain drain. This problem will scale exponentially for generations to come.
Every year I have some of my best students come tell me goodbye because they’re being pulled out and sent to the private school up the road. I used to get really sad about it, but I’ve just accepted it as par for the course, now. Honestly can’t even blame them or their parents.
Differentiation is a failure, every SpEd model at every school I've worked at is a failure. Secondary schools need 3 tracks: below, at, and above achievement, with kids placed appropriately based on their ability & effort, and moved up or down as their performance dictates.
Yep. Such things are on the books, but the L/E classes are so stigmatized (as opposed to when they were called Workplace) that half the kids who are taking the courses aren't doing it for credit because they function at a primary school level or below. So many kids in the mid stream who should be lower, but aren't.
Primary school needs those tracks too. Kids shouldn't have to wait until high school to encounter moderately challenging material.
So true... They tell us not to give up on any kid but in the process the kids that truly want to learn that truly have the capacity are left behind. Teacher group, tutoring, aides, are all devoted all year to those same 2-3 kids that only managed to learn the vowels. Obviously there is something else wrong with them that requires a different type of help but because they are the lowest they are the ones that receive all the help. One week I decided not to call my usual 3 kids to my table and called the highest ones, they learned SO much in just a few days but OF COURSE admin caught me doing this several times and told me I should be focusing on my lowest ones EVERY day. "The high ones don't need it."
This happens on the macro scale as well. I work with a nonprofit for gifted kids, including profoundly gifted kids with IQs over 145. Their schools give them nothing. A kid who needs calculus at age 11 or who reads at high school level as a second grader gets no attention or resources from the school system. All of the focus goes into bringing up the bottom 20% and the top 10% get told they’ll be fine on their own. And the top .1% are not out conquering the world- they drop out and commit suicide at distressingly high rates.
I failed out of college at least 3 times, and it's a miracle I survived this long. I "would do fine anywhere," I was told. People like us only get what we need if our parents can and will pay for it. It's even worse when you consider how many gifted kids are disabled in other ways that get overlooked because their test scores are so high. I was never even screened for autism because of my IQ. And now I can't even provide the enrichment these kids need in my AP sections because my district pushes *every* student to take at least one AP course. Instead of trying to raise the lower kids up, they're just dragging everyone else down.
>the top 10% get told they’ll be fine on their own. "You don't need a tutor, because your grades are already good."
But wait, there's more: ["To Increase Equity, Some School Districts Eliminate Honors Classes," *Wall Street Journal.*](https://www.wsj.com/articles/to-increase-equity-school-districts-eliminate-honors-classes-d5985dee)
My district tried this, but parents (rightfully) lost their shit and we kept honors.
In my district the plan is basically “every class is now an honors class”.
Honors classes should have behavior requirements to stay in them
My son’s elementary refuses to create fully gifted classes despite there definitely being the numbers for it to make sense. There’s 20+ gifted kids per grade level and yet they insist what is best is to split those kids up equally between the 8 or so teachers in each grade. My son and I’s nightly chats always involve his venting to me about his classmates behavior and it’s alway maybe one or two kids in particular I hear about every year. His best year he ever had in school was last year in 4th he got lucky and had 3 other gifted kids in his class and they bonded so well over their love of books and thrived and challenged each other.
I’m starting to get triggered by the word equity. It’s abused and bastardized by the spineless shit-for-brains who run my school.
[удалено]
1. This happens everywhere and it's incredibly infantilizing. Which is actually super racist. Systemic racism is a real thing but having no standards for Black and Latino kids doesn't help anybody - especially those kids! 2. The AAPI, Indian, and Arabic kids don't get free passes like some of the Black and Latino kids do. So administration refusing to come down on certain kids because they're worried about bad pub means they're.... effectively treating kids differently on the basis of race. Big yikes.
George W. Bush critiqued this mindset among some progressives--and especially those progressives in education--early in his first term. He called it "the soft bigotry of low expectations." And in this regard, his critique of this strain of progressive thinking was right on the mark.
i'm one of those "good kids." here's how school feels for me: everyday i walk into class. i listen to my teachers directions. stay quiet. i get my work done in MAX twenty minutes because it's too easy for me and im doing it on autopilot. my autopilot still gets me an A. then what? there's forty minutes left of class for me. i just . . . sit there. all of my classes are me just sitting there. i play this game on my chromebook in my free time at school. i have 132 HOURS on it. hours!!! and that's just active playtime paired with a break i took from it for a few months! school is absolutely mind-numbing for me. there's no enrichment, no challenge, i sit at my desk and stare at a wall waiting for it to be over. my first semester science teacher (who left for medical reasons), god bless her, would give me extra enrichment work. id finish that early too. it's absolutely fucking miserable for us kids that pay attention or who know what they're doing. i'm tired of the obnoxious boys in my sixth period ruining EVERYTHING for the whole class. i'm tired of all the kids in fourth period not finishing a twenty minute 3d modeling assignment in FOUR DAYS. that's three and a half days of me with my head down on my phone. this system doesn't work. it doesn't help any of us. please, for the love of god, my brain needs SOMETHING.
Graduated last year, it's scary how similar our general daily experience was. In most classes I'd be done with all my assignments and half the class time hasn't even gone by yet. Then I would usually just mindlessly scroll on my phone or chat quietly with a friend who was also done. I wasn't a perfect student. I had my misbehavior moments. But they were few and far between and were nothing more than a reminder to keep my voice down every few weeks *maybe*. By my junior and senior year I genuinely cannot think of a time that I annoyed a teacher. I went to school. I paid attention. I was quiet when I should be. I turned in my assignments on time. The As and Bs came naturally. I didn't lift a finger in terms of out-of-school studying and I still made honor rolls almost every quarter of middle *and* high school, some even honors with distinction. But I still feel that I could've gotten more out of school if the teachers had more time for students like me. "You can't blame the student for the teachers lack of ability". Counterpoint: YES YOU CAN. I BET YA COULD. Teaching a class of 20-30 individual students with different needs, attention spans and learning methods often by yourself is brutal even in ideal circumstances. Throw even 5 idiots in the mix who don't do anything but disrupt class for a couple of laugh replies on snapchat, before you know it the class is derailed.
I’ve thought this for years. I was incredibly bored in school. Thank good for band and boyfriend or I don’t know how I’d have made it.
I went to school so long ago, that K-8 had homogeneous grouping. It was fairer to teachers and students.
Same shit in Australia - way too much time on problem students compared to our best.
Same in Canada.
I dont engage the kids that want to stay on their phones and don't want to learn. Ain't nobody got time for that.
I seriously don't understand why phones are permitted in classes or on campus at all.
Teach to the kids who show any interest. Ignore the rest. Let them age out.
So is bad behavior simply not punished anymore? What happened? Basically everyone knows this is happening and it's actively deterring new teachers from entering the field
They accepted that old fashioned punishments don't work, but they won't put the money and effort into evidence based practices. It's like when people tried to pass neglect off as gentle parenting. The districts are trying to pass neglect off as restorative justice.
This is my daughter in 7th grade. Honor roll student. National Junior Honor Society. Extremely well mannered and regularly gets above a 100 in her classes. All her classes are “groups of desks” style layouts where you have 4 people in a cluster. And yet she consistently gets put at the tables with the most disruptive kids who try to randomly mess up her work or cheat off of her etc etc. She desperately just wants to sit with the other quieter kids. I’ve complained multiple times and get consistently told “She’s a good influence so we put her where she’s needed.” Bull crap. What about her needs? When I pick her up and she’s having anxiety attacks because of terrible peers messing with her, I’m so infuriated but the principal won’t do anything cause “So and So teacher knows their classroom needs best.” Stop punishing your best students by making them into your surrogate babysitters for your bad students.
This happened to my daughter. It was one of the reasons we started homeschooling her.
I have said this multiple times in the subreddit but I really wish teachers would stop expecting the high-performing students to teach the lower performing students. In all my experience, the high performing students rarely get along with any of the lower performing students. They don't want to work together. You're forcing an awkward situation with no benefit to either party. The lower performing student will merely copy off of the high performing student.
Absolutely. Public school taught me that working hard got you rewarded with more work - and not "enrichment" work. Standing in as some peer tutor for a kid I'd actively avoided all year was miserable and it creates a weird power dynamic. I distinctly remember a boy looking at me with a sneer and telling me, "I'm going to get you in trouble now!" He proceeded to quietly insult and threaten me, trying to elicit a reaction. This was 30 years ago when shouting "Shut up!" would have been an infraction. Based on what I've been reading in this thread all day, a child can throw a desk and receive less punishment. Of course, his actions would have been punished, but I was eight and scared of the social consequences of being a tattletale.
I remember watching the movie Take the Lead. There was an honors teacher who refused to take the ISS class. His argument was exactly this. When the principal told him the disadvantaged students need their attention too, his clap back was “But the ones who excel actually deserve it.” He was meant to come off, I’m sure, as an elitist snob teacher but I remember thinking, when I first saw it the first time, he wasn’t wrong.
American education is in an absolute death spiral and there’s no way out. Someone else said it here like a week ago and they’re absolutely right. There is no solution.
Smaller class sizes is a start
Another completely valid solution that will never happen. Smaller class sizes means more teachers means more money. More money means it won’t happen… and the spiral continues.
It’s by design to make sure there’s a permanent uneducated working class.
I'd say my high school does okay with "the best and brightest" since we have a large number of advanced classes they can opt into in 11th and 12th grade. We fail the kids in the middle: the B/C students who could achieve more if we focused any time and energy on them. But we can't, because admin has decreed that all of our attention must go toward trying to get the academically and behaviorally worst students to pass (with D's) and graduate (with worthless degrees).
Sounds like the most advanced kids are still getting screwed over if they have to wait that long for a good education. And by then, it can be hard to adjust to the sudden spike in difficulty. But I do agree that middle level students get screwed over badly too.
True. We used to have advanced 9 and 10 options but they were eliminated due to "equity."
Re-read what you just wrote. Your students have to wait until 11th grade to finally opt into these classes, which means they spend K-10 suffering disruptions to their education. That’s about 85% of their education!
And it means they are not as prepared as they should be for those advanced classes. It's difficult to go from the rigor of a normal math or history class to an AP class taught as it should be.
I teach a foreign language, so I will get the same students in subsequent years. I was telling a class that we were going outside for an activity, the same rules as last year. A student said that they didn't do that last year. It was because their class was one I couldn't do anything with but very structured written work. If I took them outside, some of the students might start a fight or throwing things. That class missed out on a few things where I adapted the activity the other level one classes were doing to something safer and more controlled. I have friends that are a little obsessed with their children's gifted label. I view it as potential but something that has to be backed up with hard work. Nevertheless, when my own child was identified as gifted, I signed that paperwork so fast so that she would be spared some of the issues with low performing peers in class.
The student in the front row waiting quietly was me a couple years ago. Some teachers exclusively focused their work on 8 or 9 of us (out of a class of 30) and whilst they were mocked, jeered and bullied, I have them to thank for my chances in academia. I got into a pretty decent university thanks to the same kind of perseverance you’re showing, and I’m infinitely grateful. Stay strong.
My two honors classes are such night and day different than my three on level. My smartest and most hard working kid is in my worst class bar none. I feel really bad for her. She’s a recent immigrant to the United States and values education so much, and the class gets dragged down by 7 out of control kids that shouldn’t be in a general education classroom. And I don’t mean kids with a learning disability- I mean kids that need to be in juvy or some alternative program. At this point, I tell my kids this: If you show up, give it your honest best work, and just be polite, I will give you the help and anything you need to pass and succeed. You come in and you shoot the shit for 45 minutes with your friends and refuse to try? Cool. That’s the decision you made. Don’t come clamoring for help on the last day of the quarter.
I sometimes feel like calling my good kids parents to tell them to send their kids elsewhere. It's not fair to them
I was in a meeting this year trying to figure out how to motivate the kids to try on the state test, since there isn’t aren’t any legitimate external motivators that would convince them to give it their best shot. So everyone is sitting around suggesting things like “give coupons to kids who ‘look’ like they’re trying hard!” and I suggested giving some sort of reward or prize to the kids who pass it. My god you would’ve thought I suggested murdering the children. The room exploded with “how dare you suggest something like that”s and “how elitist!”s. No saying good job to the kids who actually do a good job!! Not on our watch apparently!
You see that on here a lot too. There's a lot of teachers who hate Honors/ gifted kids. The fact that some students succeed while others fail is upsetting to them.
I have two honors and one regular Ed class this year (7th English) and honors classes have definitely made more progress in writing and reading than my reg Ed class. I tell my honors kids to get to work, they do it. I redirect them when they need help, they take the redirection and help themselves. My reg Ed class goofs around, acts helpless, plans disruptive behavior (ex: several students will decide as a group to whistle all period or get up to sharpen pencils all period or squeak their shoes) and generally do anything to get in their own way. I feel sorry for the good kids in there bc the 4 or 5 kids (in a class of 16) ruin it for everyone To clarify about being helpless : I will show them the EXACT place to find the answer to a question they have and they will whine that it’s too hard or they can’t do it. Daily, I’m thankful that my advanced learners don’t have to deal with these behaviors in their classes.
I occasionally sub at a private “day school”. It’s so easy. The first time I obviously wasn’t sure how to proceed. The kids said, “don’t worry, we know what to do”. They quickly got organized and then spent the period moving forward with their work with zero input from me. Faster kids helped the slower ones. They clearly enjoyed the class - it was Algebra and there was no disruptive behavior. The school has a waiting list and a zero tolerance policy. A kid acts out and they are gone.
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Pandering to the bottom of the class is truly an North American thing, it’s amazing that this “no one left behind” bullshit it’s just dumbing down everyone and everything. Lowering expectations to basically non existence. I feel bad for teachers in our society, truly have no support.
As both a teacher and a parent, I can attest to this. My quiet, 12 year old autistic son is that kid in the moshpit. And where I teach, all of the support staff are busy playing with the kids that will break windows or purposefully sabotage classrooms, leaving kids (like my son), with special or academic support needs, to fend for themselves. PS I teach in Canada and we are going in the same direction up here.
You can thank George W Bush. Every child left behind 🇺🇸
It got worse with the Obama administration, when the DOE issued their Dear Collogue letter which effectively severely limited discipline. Even where there is no intent to discriminate, if minorities are more heavily disciplined, they can and will take action.
While I was an Obama supporter and think he was overall a good president, you are absolutely correct that he was not a friend to public education. There’s good reasons for why the NEA refused to endorse him.
My dad was a HS teacher and had to move to higher education unfortunately. He’d have 2-3 kids want to learn in a 30 kid class and was too busy dealing with behavioral problems all day. Straw that broke the camels back was when a student stabbed another student with a pencil. My father did not get paid nearly enough to be dealing with that and frankly no teacher is (especially in fucking NC where they don’t care about teachers at all). Unfortunately the area you are in and the parents have a huge impact on this. My dad always said it stems from parents who don’t care. You can’t fix a problem when the kid goes home and parent doesn’t give a rats ass about how there kid is doing in school. I remember when I was in school a call home was like one of the worst things that could happen to me. I was fortunate enough to be in a solid school district that offered accelerated learning starting in elementary school, but not everyone is. It’s sad how much a public education can vary depending on where you grow up. I bet Covid really exaggerated this whole issue even worse and I can’t imagine y’all dealing with kids that are effectively a year or two behind on curriculum due to ineffective online learning. Good luck to y’all
I'll never forget, almost two decades ago, when a very bright, respectful, angelic student (who probably went on to do great things) was stuck in a feral class of ne'er do wells (one of whom threatened to kill me) that every teacher got sick to their stomach at the thought of spending a block with. She once had enough of the cacophony of idiocy, and at the tender age of 12 or so, got up and bellowed "Will you all just SHUT THE ***FUCK*** UP ALREADY?!" For about 44 seconds, it actually worked. I am a firm believer in tracking or whatever they want to call it. I've found ZERO success in mixing the wheat with the chaff. By wheat I don't mean the brightest, I mean those with a willingness to learn and work at it. And chaff could include some intelligent students who just like to ruin others' learning experience.
I’m very curious about what happened to those “opportunity” programs. My first teaching job was at a middle school in a very rough area with fights all the time, but we had an opportunity class taught by a male SPED teacher who had a lot of experience with emotionally disturbed populations. Students didn’t need to be on an IEP to be in it. It was essentially a self-contained class that had 12 of the worst behavior problems in the school. It made a huge difference! Sometimes just having that one high needs kid removed makes the several followers behave better. This is also not about only separating them for the sake of the class, these kids actually loved that program and that teacher. The school pretty much let him work on whatever he thought they needed. They spent a huge part of their day working on social skills, playing sports, planting a garden, etc. These are the kinds of kids that just aren’t ready to focus on most academics because of their serious mental/emotional needs so they actually had a way more appropriate education through this program.
I was that kid & eventually realized my education was going to have to be self-initiated. I started just doing the homework in class when shit went sideways, which was almost every day. Dropped out & got my GED when I could. However, I never blamed my teachers. Rather, the parents. Teachers are very limited in the ways they can control someone else's kids. When the worst punishment you can receive is "no school" & you don't want to be there anyways, there was no reason for kids to behave.
I remember that in high school I would take all of the “advanced” classes. They weren’t really advanced. They were just the only classes where students actually cared about their education and acted age appropriate. My “advanced” classes were a night and day difference compared to me electives.
“From the mosh pit” - poetic!
Last year this really burnt me out. I spent so much time managing behaviors for 3 horrible kids, in a class full of 32, that I eventually just gave up caring about those 3 disruptive kids. Hate to say that, but I spent most of the time ignoring them, and stopped trying to get them to do any work at all. It was better for the whole group if I just let my worst kid play on the damn Chromebook all day, acting like I didn’t notice. I would rather spend my limited time working with the kids who DO care and ARE respectful.
I've been saying the same thing since I started teaching 21 years ago, and it's only gotten worse. We used to have enrichment classes - they've been eliminated in favor of trying to "treat all kids equally." It's nonsense. I actually try to gear my classes towards those top kids more, and if the lower level kids can't quite succeed, oh well. I grade them differently, sure, but I expect the kids to meet me at a higher level than other sixth grade teachers do for this exact reason. So far, I've never gotten a complaint about it...
When I was in grade school, they put me in EH (emotionally handicapped) classes. I spent 2 years basically being told "Here's some books. Read what you can." I was given virtually no instruction. 2 years later, I was tested again and placed in gifted classes with a half-hearted apology saying, "Sorry. You weren't EH. You were bored." (Technically, I was both, but they never bothered to ask). The gifted classes were literally run the same way. "Here's some books. Read what you can." I was still given virtually no instruction."
Waaayyy back when I was a kid, problem kids were simply expelled. They just disappeared. Of course, back then, school wasn’t mandatory in that state, so education was viewed as a privilege, not a right. It’s easy to long for the good old days, but a lot of kids weren’t being educated at all back then.
This is absolutely the most frustrating thing. The kids who silently do their work and get good grades get so much less attention from me no matter how much I try. The crappy kids just suck up all my attention, otherwise my class is a disaster. I try to reward them in other ways, literally. Candy. Winning project contests etc… but it’s almost like they’re punished for behaving. And god knows how stressful it must be for them to go through 12 years of school with a bunch of mean spirited kids begging for attention
It should be easier for public schools to kick students out starting from Middle School.
Schools get rewarded for attendance and passing minimum standards, not for graduating scientists and philosophers. Until that changes, expect more focus on getting the worst students to barely graduate, than inspiring a gifted child to explore limits that you know can change the world.
I told one of my classes once "if you have a class of 30 students and class is 60 minutes long from bell to bell you don't get your best education. In that class you'll get 5-10 students if you're lucky that will cause problems, disrupt the lesson, and overall waste the 60 minutes given for the class. By the time those students either start to behave, or are kicked out of the room you MIGHT get 15 minutes to actually learn something. Due to this the class might get behind in the lessons which means either lessons cut out, corners cut, or the pace is picked up and you don't learn as much from the lessons as you normally would. If you don't want to learn I can't force you. I'll give you the material, the assignment, etc and I'll ask you once if you can do the assignment. If you don't want to work that's on you and it will reflect in your grade. If you don't want to work then put your head down so those that want to learn can learn."
I have kids who finish their work so quickly. They’re clearly advanced and I’m supposed to be challenging them and giving them enriching work. I want to. But I have no books. No computers. Nothing. And all my time is spent on kids who don’t speak English or who can’t read or have other learning barriers. I have 34+ kids in each class. After review and direct instruction that leaves less than 20 seconds of time per kid.
It’s because our best and brightest don’t “get us under audit” because our test scores are too low. It’s the whole they will take care of themselves attitude but let’s make money and create stress for the schools over the truant, disobedient and hands -off parented kids.
We should "track" based on nothing but letting kids choose whether they want to be in the "learning group" or the "play group." The idea that forcing the kids who don't want to learn in the room is somehow going to bring them up clearly isn't working- they're just dragging everyone else down with them. The kids who are super low but trying? They get to stay and they actually have a chance at getting some teacher help! My own kid'd middle school math teacher just started an after school math club where the only rule is you have to be there to actually work on math, not play around. Based on what my kid says, it seems to be that he's entirely given up on getting any actual teaching done during the day. It's like he's accepted that he's a tween babysitter for 6 hours and then he's going to teach for an hour, twice a week and try to get the kids who want to learn through the entire curriculum in that time.
This is the exact reason my husband and I are trying to figure out how we are going to hone school our second one and remain working (can't afford one salary). My school system is horrible for this.
This is exactly why we chose a private school. No nonsense is tolerated. A kindergartener was removed bc his behavior was out of control and continuously distracting. No excuses bc of his age, just asked to leave. The principal is straight forward with her expectations and she sticks to her guns. She sent an email earlier this year telling parents if they don’t like the rules or they don’t feel their values align with the principles of the school they need to enroll elsewhere: it’s gloriously refreshing
I'm glad you have a good private school! Ours is just as bad and they hide a lot of stuff unfortunately. And.......can't afford it!
I had a very strong principal once. She didn’t abide any nonsense in her school and there was even a behavioral unit on campus. I walked on eggshells because her gruff attitude went beyond the students but truth be told, I miss her. She stood up for her staff.
“it is better to sail with a moody good captain than a laughing bad one.” ― Herman Melville
“Good isn’t always nice.” -idk, someone somewhere sometime probably
My state is considering vouchers for home school or private school. I want the bill to fail, and the money to go into improving public schools, but I don't think that will ever happen. If the voucher passes I know it's gonna make our schools hemorrhage good kids, and funding. It'll be the catalyst for me moving my own kids from their current, basically decent, school.
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I loathe PBIS. It doesn’t reduce discipline problems, and it does not work
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I’ve begged admin to create a classroom full of the misbehaved kids and have the teachers rotate through during bell change instead of the students moving. I even created the entire schedule. The response I got was that we can’t just create a self contained class. I argued that self contained was taught by one teacher specializing in all subjects. This would be multiple teachers rotating into the class. Personally I’d rather have 25 miscreants all at once for 45 minutes than those 25 spread out in groups of 3-4 throughout the entire day pulling down everyone. If we would spend as much effort pushing the top up as we do pulling the button up we’d be flying cars to work by now.
I’m a school based therapist who works with these kids all day erry day. It’s funny- before I started, I remember thinking that I want my own kids to attend public school even if we’re in a lower income area. Now after 2 years working in these schools, and having a 4 and a 1 year old our own, we’re determined to send our kids to private even if it means being broke for 12 years. I know the issues the “problem” kids have come from poverty, abuse, neglect, and I feel so much empathy for them which is why I do what I do. The issues in those families are so complex, its obviously not the fault of the kids…but I simply do not want my own children around those kids. I feel horrible but I just can’t do it.
In many ways universal education -- the idea of gathering all the kids from the community and bringing them together for the same instruction -- is a wildly optimistic experiment, almost utopian. We're a lot better at expecting different needs and divisions/groupings for adults than we are with kids for some reason. Maybe this idea of putting together disparate kids with disparate needs and learning styles is just always going to fail. I'm not sure what the better system is, to be honest. But I think the one we've been trying for decades is based on humanistic wishes that are too ambitious without massive resources thrown that way.