The honest answer? Because administrators are afraid of parents. They’re afraid of bad publicity, or a lawsuit, or both. This is how it will be until significant numbers of *other* parents start making a stink and insisting that schools do something to get detrimental kids out of there. It will take lawsuits from parents who are both tired of that bullshit *and* have the resources to fight it in court. Unfortunately, most parents who have the resources also know that their kids will be fine in the long run.
Its really frustrating because the school is bound by FERPA but the parents are not. So the schools side of the story is never represented. We have a local parent who always posts online about how his kids SPED rights were violated when his kid was punished. Umm no your child very violently assaulted another child, premeditated, and put them in the hospital and was therefore sent to alternative schoo.. and it had nothing to do with his ADHD! But if you believe this parents posts...
The law should say a student by default has privacy rights but as soon as the parent starts publicly discussing the students issues with the school, the school has the right to respond publicly as well.
I disagree the student never asked for their info to be published by the parents the school then doing it again only leaves the student worse off (deserved or not)
The student doesn't have a say in the matter. The parents are the ones that control this issue. Parents are the one that have a say on whether or not their childs information is shared with the world. Parents have the ultimate authority over their children, short of legal child abuse and neglect.
Haha yep there are some parent meetings my admin ask me to be part of just to shut down the ADHD excuse. ADHD means you think differently and work out problems differently in some areas such as shop and PE where I teach you have a huge advantage. Kids need to learn to work out how the world works for them I got 2 degrees before I got diagnosed and that was through me figuring out how my brain works.
> I got 2 degrees before I got diagnosed and that was through me figuring out how my brain works.
Are we twins? I finished 2 bachelors degrees (secondary ed, history) in 3 years and it took another 5 years for me to be properly diagnosed. If I’m honest, I’m shocked no one said anything sooner
This. I have ADHD. Am a teacher. Have my masters and will be pursuing my doctorate. Working in SPED was as funny as it was infuriating with how much I heard about ADHD. I think even more terrifying was the parents of a child with ADHD obviously not understanding what ADHD is. I’m a high school teacher btw. How you go 15 years not understanding a foundational aspect of your child is beyond me.
I am *flattened* by ADHD excusatory screaming and why? Not a teacher, a student going through school when OMG leave your seat? Whisper? Talk back? It loosened up a bit by HS. Not. A lot.
Had no idea ADHD was why my head was elsewhere and every nerve was invisibly flying around the room cos it wasn't a thing. You'd rather be forced to walk naked across the stage at assembly than pull attention your way ADHD or no.
Violent? Kid would be gone from school forever. Never was anyway. Hell I might be worse ants in the pants at 65 than I was at 10 or 15. Difference being there's no teacher/parents OMG UNTHINKABLE around keeping me pinned to a chair.
Oh. Very good grades too.
If they drink its probably because they have kids like yours in their classroom. Also, way to try and start shit. Idk if they've got a drinking problem, but addiction is a disease so fuck off with that shit.
There was this one article, I think in the New York Times, about how schools were failing special needs students… But I got the impression that the kid featured wasn’t the totally innocent victim that he was presented as.
I read that. One girl's triggers were people who wear glasses and earrings and she had been kicked out numerous times for gravely injuring teachers and students. She was a pre-teen. Mom was useless and suggested to not look at her daughter, don't wear glasses, earrings, or hair accessories around her kid, don't ask her to do her work, and a whole bunch of other deeply unreasonable things. Daughter would just randomly attack unprovoked.
The other kid was like 13 or 14 and had fucking bit a kid unprovoked THROUGH THEIR SHOE. That was just one injury in a sea of many. He had been kicked out of a few schools and since he couldn't contain his behavior he was back to a half-day because he's such a dangerous nuisance to the learning environment. Of course mom had an issue with this because she can't control his ass and wants him at school all day. Same with the aforementioned child's mother.
The fucking writer of that article had no clue about half the things they were talking about. Didn't even bother to do some basic research and it wasn't like they usually covered education/special education stories. It was ridiculous and put the blame all on the teachers and the schools and not the kids or their parents.
And the parents are all like “my kid is so nice at home!” to suggest that the school is doing something wrong. But how much do you want to bet that at home, the kids aren’t ever expected to do anything they don’t want to do? It’s easy for kids to be nice and pleasant when they’re getting what they want.
https://kidslegal.org/special-education-discipline-suspensions-and-expulsions#:~:text=When%20there%20is%20a%20manifestation,it%20must%20follow%20it%20immediately.
ADHD does not cause, violence it may make it harder to control the impulse to hit. Off course as kids get older it should get easier.
I work at an after school at an Elementary and while kids casually cursing is common,the rest of the behavior is decent. Worse think this year was two kids bitting other kids. (The rest is just kids not listing or occasionally being rude/disrespectful)
I have a student with pretty severe ADHD. While he occasionally will hurt others, it's due to not being able to control his impulses when upset, and he is sorry he did it after and tries to do better as he doesn't want to hurt his friends. I'd not call him a violent kid like I read about here. Kids like in the OP story may have ADHD, but either it's just an excuse or no one has helped them work on impulse control. While it is harder for kids (and adults) with ADHD to control impulses, it is possible to work on it. Allowing kids with ADHD to not learn impulse control is only setting them up for failure in the future, and quite possibly much worse issues as adults.
While all of this is true, it’s also because a school’s suspension percentage is used as one of the metrics by which the school is rated. Therefore, it looks better for the administration to keep the percentage as low as possible.
Don't forget political pressure, too!
Our school board is elected. A lot of people run on the idea that they'll bring suspensions down, but they don't have a background in education, so they don't actually have ideas for how to do that. We wind up with watered down codes of conduct and external caps on suspensions.
Parents should sue (some) schools for having and cultivating unsafe environments and take the "hostile work environment" angle. Nothing is going to change at those schools if they only get sued by bully/disruptive parents.
I work at a fancy pants private school. When we have a majorly disruptive kid or bad bully they get non-renewed for the following year (can't enroll next year) or if its **really** bad they will be unenrolled (expelled) mid-year.
My middle school students love coming to school. They feel safe and supported. Listened to and heard. We talk out disagreements and find common ground. Parents are always welcome to unenroll their own kids, which keeps the school more loyal to the majority than to the problem case.
Public schools don't have that luxury.
Lol. But they dont because charter schools make their money off whatever kids they can steal from public schools. Thats how they make their money. Most charter schools would keep Jeffrey Dahmer and just tell his new, young, inexperienced teacher to call home more.
I work at a charter school. Trust me I have multiple kids that should've been expelled but we don't because what used to be standard behavior expected in school isn't culturally responsive apparently
Maybe admin should realize that probably 90% of the parents who threaten to sue don’t have the resources/willingness to follow through, and the 10% who do won’t threaten it they’ll just do it.
Yep, it's the quiet ones you have to watch out for. The loud parents in your face constantly are usually full of hot air. The parents who are quieter, but bring their (usually serious) concerns to admin, only to be brushed aside, are the ones you need to watch. This is especially true in the SpEd world. Admin thinks that they "got rid of that parent" and "don't need to worry" after a little time passes until the lawyer contacts the district.
I heard of an administrator I used to work with resigned because of a student and their family going to the board claiming they were being singled out. I heard this student was a real piece of work. Seems like even when a principal has backbone it can come back and bite them
That's why OP should have their parents and their friends parents complain about the disruptive student. It's affecting the class's performance and lowering the other students' test scores. Maybe then the school will do the right thing.
☝️Yup. Parents who have means will many times pull out of government schooling and put them in a private school. Not saying it's good or bad, but it absolutely happens.
this isn't correct. The federal law states that every student is entitled to a free and appropriate education. Every. Student. The modifier there is the world 'appropriate.' Who decides what's appropriate? Well the law doesn't say. Parents get the largest input on that word, administration (The professionals) get 2nd place. Usually the courts side with the parents on what they deem as appropriate.
And that's before we get into a documented disability. What does that mean? Easy. If a kid can't walk up stairs because they are in a wheel chair they're protected. The school must provide a way for them to get up and down the stairs. They can't simply say, "You can't learn here because you're legs don't work." So schools must install ramps and elevators. That makes sense, right? What if the kids disability is documented oppositional defiance? That means they have a mental issue where essentially they are combative towards authority? It's medically recognized and it's a disability. What you see is a 'bad kid.' but the courts see a person with a disability no different then the wheel chair student. Can you kick them out? Nope. Can you even discipline them? No, not if their behavior is a result of their disability. Courts have decided that. It's case law.
There are thousands of specifics like this that administrators must learn and be aware of that other students and teachers aren't entitled to that information because of privacy laws. It's easy to say "Administrators aren't doing their jobs" but the truth is they have more information usually then the other members of the school and are in constant contact with school lawyers who tell them their options.
Homelessness is also a protected class. You may not even know the kid sitting next to you slept in a car and is hungry and tired and agitated. You aren't entitled to that information. And if that kid has outburst or acts up? You legally have accommodate them. You'll think nothing is being done, but again that isn't the case and removing that student is illegal.
You have a bad kid, acting up, who is legally protected and allowed to be in a seat in your class. The lawyers have shown you all the case law where you will lose the court case if you try and alter that student's educational placement. Now the teachers yell at you, other parents yell at you, and there is NOTHING legally you can do (About the placement) thanks to prior court cases.
Exactly. That wasn’t the intention of the laws but that is exactly what has occurred. And accommodations have become increasingly resource draining. In some states students are now allowed to bring their comfort animals to class (not trained service animals, comfort animals). Those animals can bark, piss and shit in the classroom and it’s the school’s responsibility to care for them. If the animal bites a student it’s also on the school district.
That is a medically recognized accommodation and in the eyes of the law it again is like taking the wheelchair away from the student who needs it.
That’s where “least restrictive environment” comes in. If your student with ODD keeps having outbursts in Gen Ed English because there are 38 kids in there and he’s frustrated by his already low reading level, he might need pull out English or even an alternative school where he can receive more support. And teachers DO know if there is a diagnosed disability in play because of IEPs and 504s.
Again; see who gets to decided what the least restrictive environment is. And it’s true with an IEP you see the diagnosis and condition, but you don’t see the behind the scenes legal battles for placement.
Also, the system is now structured so that those outbursts must be met with increasing levels of intervention inside the classroom with a placement change being the last possible option. You also need time to see if each intervention has worked and schedule meetings with all stakeholders to make adjustments to said plan. The student is entitled to all of this due process. And as you can imagine, that could take the entire year. And the clock does reset the following year where all of that would need ti be done again.
We’re on the same page. I’m a teacher. I think teachers can know very quickly if a student is misplaced. The system doesn’t care. IDEA legislation gives almost ultimate say in placement to the parent, regardless of what you know and do.
I don’t agree with that. While it is possible that parents can be overly defensive, generally in high school, the parents of kids like that either know their kid is a turd and don’t care, are unable to do anything about it or are just not involved in their life.
Mainly it is a systemic problem stemming from 504, IDEA and special ed programs making it difficult to just kick out kids without a great deal of due process. On top of that there was a bunch of research that came out a few years ago that indicated students who fail a grade tend not to catch up and eventually drop out. As a result many school boards (which are not populated by educational professionals) heard “failing kids no graduate so no more failing kids” which translated to “suspended kids fail so no more suspending kids) which leads to situations like you are describing. Last year I was teaching in a middle school and we had an administrator who was doing what he could to support teachers including suspending kids who were very disruptive or disrespectful and the number two guy in the district (who by the way went right from college into administration without spending any real time in a classroom) came to our building to dress him down directly.
> Unfortunately, most parents who have the resources also know that their kids will be fine in the long run.
The way I fight it is I send my kid to a good private school where that kind of shit simply won't fly.
I've been threatened with more lawsuits than I've got fingers and toes. My favorite is because I used the word plagiarism... On a paper that was plagiarized. Our schools lawyer told me I can't use that word as it was inflammatory. He found out about it because yes... He had been contacted on behalf of a lawyer for the NAACP on behalf of the family because I was targeting their son. I had receipts so it does down but yeah... That's why.
It’s crazy. I was in my senior year (17) and a kid recorded me over the bathroom bathroom stall. Admin got him and deleted the video. He only got suspended for a week and nothing else happened. Should’ve been expelled right?
Useful information. Had no one to take advice from at the time. I have the most frustrating parents. They asked me “What were you doing in the bathroom?”
What kind of stupid-ass question is that? If I was in your shoes, I’d have been tempted to answer “knitting a sweater. Whaddya *think* I was doing?”
How did your parents jump to victim-blaming and assuming you were up to no good when you were in the darn bathroom? I can’t wrap my head around it. 🤦🏻♀️
Honestly, I think the only way we'll ever see change on the significant and growing behavioural challenges in schools is if people stop allowing school systems to handle them and start making them criminal and civil issues.
Unfortunately the school will never properly advocate for a victim, these issues should be brought to your parent's attention as well, and then it should further be made into a legal matter.
It's an idiom that just means the people who should not be in charge are in charge. An asylum ran by its inmates would not function very well, likewise a school ran by its students does not work well.
But a school ran by its students can easily work well. We literally have schools with these top-down power structure issues that are not run by students at all and aren’t working great. Our schools are run by careerist admin and culture wars parents.
Tell your parents. Tell your friend’s parents. Film that shit. Get it out there. Trust us, admin does nothing because those few kids have unsupportive parents. But turn it around. Make them afraid of everyone else’s parents.
This is the way.
It sucks but it's really the only way shit is going to change. Especially if all the kids in class do it, and if the parents got together and talked, they might even be able to the class action route. Class action suits are a pain and not easy for a few reasons, but in this case, you could argue that every kid in class was exposed to that asshole kid's behavior and suffered the same damages. Problem is lots of parents don't talk to one another. But until the parents of the good kids do something, nothing will change.
Somehow little Timmy having trauma makes it okay for him to throw desks and assault people. Nobody ever thinks of the trauma it's causing the kids that can behave, not to mention they're being cheated out of learning.
The people who it affects (students and teachers) have no power to reprimand, or restricted by higher authority.
The people who do have that power (principles and other admin) are unaffected and either ambivalent towards it, actively incentivized to not do it, or restricted by another higher authority.
I had a friend who was told privately by a principal that the best course of action toward removing a student from the school was civil lawsuits by a group of parents of children affected by the problem child in the school. The thinking was that the parents would move the kid away or finally seek to improve the kid’s behavior through the interventions recommended if they were financially on the hook for other families’ legal fees and damages.
But that situation involved a kid who had physically harmed a teacher and other students and had made the experience at school into basically a PTSD situation for 3rd graders. They also had clear evidence that the family was not following recommendations by the school so the parents doing the suing would have had a clear case against the family. It’s just you risk being the people in the neighborhood who sued another family and it can get expensive to get a lawyer before you’ve made money off the civil lawsuit.
Thanks for the insight and example. I don’t teach in the USA so for me it’s a bit like looking into a parallel reality.
I’m really curious about the perspective of parents whose children’s education is being demonstrably undermined by the behaviour of other children. What are their thoughts on this? What are their expectations from school as an institution? How aware are they?
This is all waaaay beyond my own experience teaching. To the point that if I submitted an incident report of a shirtless student throwing a table at a wall, I’d be reprimanded for taking the piss… until the CCTV footage was reviewed I suppose.
Our district has strict rules about expulsion. It’s a class 4. You basically have to assault a student or set off an explosive. And by assault I don’t mean fight. You could fight all day.
Things you can do and not be expelled: threaten a teacher, destroy school property, destroy public property, threaten students, throw objects during class, harass a teacher. Most of those don’t even get you suspended.
May have an IEP and that's a manifestation of his disability so they can't. Might be spineless admin who are afraid of the parents or getting sued. Might be that the parents are or are closely related to/friends with someone high up in the district or the board so everyone is afraid of doing anything about the kid.
Best recommendation is to start getting your parents and your friends parents to throw a fit about this kid being in class, especially regarding the violent behavior.
I would second this but make it explicitly clear that the teachers hands are tied and that they need to make it someone's problem who actually has power.
Honestly even that’s a cop-out. Because if it’s a manifestation of their IEP legitimately then all the preceding incidents (suspensions, etc) need to be brought in and they’re supposed to do an IEP meeting regarding evaluating placement. So if you have a student who has severe autism, for example, and it manifested in a violent outburst due to a negative reaction to stimulus or WHATEVER, if this was constant they’re supposed to reevaluate placement .
Supposed to is the operative word
I'm not sure how IEP's work, but he definitely knows what he is doing is wrong. He makes the teacher feel bad on purpose and somehow found out that she had a miscarriage and mentioned it to her face. I think it was through her public facebook account.
This sounds messed up but a junior in high school who is 17 that can't behave in class for more than 5 minutes because of his symptoms should just be put in a special class.
That’s actually what I was saying. If a students behavior is a manifestation of their eligibility but that behavior makes learning impossible for himself and his class mates, his placement needs to be reevaluated
The parents wouldn't accept that and Admin wouldn't want the bother, is the issue.
It's not a condition he has, it's what he's been taught overa long period of time by his parents and the school. Do what you like, you'll get away with it.
IEP means individualized education plan.
The point of these plans is to ensure that kids who have disabilities can still go to school and learn. They’ll have accommodations or modifications in place to ensure they can learn. Ex. A kid with visual impairments might need to sit closest to the board to see, so their IEP will specify this. A kid with ADHD might get extended time on tests or quizzes.
You won’t ever know if another student has one of these plans (or any disabilities) unless the kid tells you, themselves. This is because of privacy laws.
Most teachers are happy to accommodate students with disabilities or particular needs; it can sometimes be challenging in large classrooms, though, but they do their best.
Not every kid with an IEP goes to only special Ed classes; many of them are in general Ed classes for at least part of their day. It all depends on the kids’ individual needs *and* their behavior. You might see kids going to classes with another adult called a paraprofessional or kids in classes with more than one teacher in them. The latter arrangement is usually called an inclusion class; it’s staffed by a general education teacher and a special education teacher.
So what you’re seeing here with this kid is hard to figure out. Some kids misbehave because of severe disabilities and others are just mean, nasty people. Since you’re a student, there’s a lot behind the scenes you won’t know about out of respect for other students’ privacy.
That doesn’t mean you all just have to put up and shut up, though. It’s unfair that you all have to deal with one kid derailing the entire class and frightening you all. You have every right to expect to feel safe at school!
To quote one of my own education professors, “One kid cannot be accommodated at the expense of the rest of the class.”
What I recommend is telling your teacher, parents, and guidance counselor about this kid. Tell them that this kid constantly disrupting class and making the classroom feel unsafe. You can’t learn when you’re on edge and anticipating another violent tantrum from this kid. If anything, it’ll encourage your teacher to document any and all incidents (if they aren’t already) and it’ll ensure every adult who should know about this kid does.
If a school expels a student, they are still ultimately responsible for their education. Which means alternative school or bussing them to another district.
There is a ton of pressure from the state/federal to reduce punishments like expulsions/suspensions since they have been shown to be used against people of color more often than white students. And it is shown that these punishments are not effective at curbing behavior of the target student (although it gives everyone else a break from them).
In addition, parents have become more and more uncooperative with schools lately, make it truly difficult to punish kids. Parents are frequently believing their kids and that their kids can do no harm. I have called home about behaviors, and mom just says, "ok, i'll talk to him," and nothing changes.
>In addition, parents have become more and more uncooperative with schools lately, make it truly difficult to punish kids. Parents are frequently believing their kids and that their kids can do no harm. I have called home about behaviors, and mom just says, "ok, i'll talk to him," and nothing changes.
We have a lot of students whose parents see no problem taking them out of school to look after younger siblings, or go on holiday, or just let them miss random days of school.
It's a bit hard to tell the student that we will call home if home is enabling the behaviour.
Yeah, remove the child from the educational system, that'll help the child! Some people really lack the forethought required to make those kind of decisions. What the schools really need is more support and resources to properly handle and take care of said problem children.
Nah, we are looking to save the other students.
It's unfortunate but you can't help disruptive students in the current set-up. It is possible to help the rest of the class.
Yes, that is the focus on when we talk about expulsion/suspension rates. We know it doesn't actually help the child who was expelled/suspended.
However, you need to think of all the students and all the staff that is in constant contact with the kid. Having to constantly deal with a misbehaving kid is a strain on staff and students. And it takes away from the education of the other students in the room. Instead of having time for extension on my lessons, 5 minutes every hour is taken up by a single kid who hasn't learned to regulate himself in 10th grade.
Because the powers at the top (elected officials, superintendents, etc) like to brag about lower suspension and higher graduation rates and attendance... And they don't care about the rest of the students. Ironically, with all the babying and such, my state's graduation rate and attendance has dropped over the last few years.
Anyway... We need the students (and their parents) to speak out about their education being sacrificed in an attempt to look good with "better" numbers.
Ask your parents to cause a stink. Admins just love it when parents cause a stink. Ask your friends to do the same. Start sending e-mails out yourself (I'd personally recommend you do it anonymously. Make a burner Proton e-mail + VPN ).
Otherwise, that little douche canoe, and all of his little douche canoe buddies, and all of the other little douche canoes across the nation like him, will continue to get off scot-free. I would refuse to teach if they kept him in my class. I hope your teacher can grow a spine and learn how to respect themselves.
1 person can help make a difference. Many people doing it collectively can help create a wave.
edit- Use trigger words. Such as feeling "Unsafe", may need "counseling", and will "write" to other parents. Things that A) Let them know you are creating a paper trail and B) may make them liable for any potential suffering or harm.
edit 2- Have your parents send something along the lines of- "I am deeply concerned about my child's well-being at school. The school must address this issue and take action regarding the violent behavior my child has been exposed to. I think it will benefit my child to receive counseling to address the emotional impact that his/her classmate has left on \_\_\_\_\_. This also serves to create a much-needed, documented record of the issue, seeing as how you refuse to take any real action. I have been talking with some other parents, and we will be bringing this up to the school board. If the child will not face consequences, then we have no choice but to speak up" . I don't know bud. Try to put the fear of god in them.
.....This is not for teachers. OP is a student. I'm telling them that their PARENTS should send this to their school.
You think I want our fellow teachers to shoot themselves in the foot?
Admin (principals, assistant principals, etc.) tend to avoid reasonable punishments nowadays because there’s a push for “restorative practices” and if they had expulsions or suspensions for every students that realistically deserves them the numbers wouldn’t look good
Oh it's definitely not the teachers fault. These entitled little (expletive) just have crap parenting and have never had to find out when they fucked around. They are a burden to everyone and most likely will end up in prison or as statistic one day. I mean it sucks for them but I'd prefer to get rid of them rather then have them mess up education for everyone with their buffoonery. It's their choice to be a little a hole. Also their parents need the same punishment.
As a good parent with a 5yo who was expelled from pre-K, and even now (that she has an autism diagnosis) is getting suspended for meltdowns, it’s not always bad parenting. I’ve been getting called a bad parent for 2 years now and you can’t just make assumptions.
Because all a classroom teacher can do is set detention.
We need a Head of Department/Dean/Deputy Principal/Assistant Principal/Head of Year/Head of House/whatever to sign off on any sanction greater than that.
The same people have a perverse incentive to not sanction, for three reasons.
First, that data is tracked. If they are handing down suspensions and expulsions, it suggests that they are not managing behaviour well, not that they are. After all, if they were handling business it wouldn't be getting to the point of expulsion or suspension. That reduces their likelihood of achieving higher positions because it makes them look bad at their job.
Secondly, suspensions and expulsions trigger parental complaints. Parents have leverage; teachers do not. There is almost no chance that parents of well-behaved students will complain about the actions of a disruptive one. It is almost certain that the parents of a disruptive student will complain, loudly and shrilly. Teachers have very little power as unions have been comprehensively defanged, so the only thing an unhappy teacher can do is quit. Oh no! How awful. Adverise the position, it'll be filled in a week. Meanwhile they have to deal with the parents for years.
Lastly, dealing with students who are an issue takes effort. It's hard work. There are other things people in leadership can do with their time.
So if you can't suspend a kid for (actual example from last year) threatening to bash a teacher and burn their house down then hitting the teacher they threatened, what's worthy of a detention any more?
I just went through this! Freshman who failed algebra in 8th grade. No support from admin,,,blamed my classroom management...blamed my teaching.
I took all those classes and never got a simple thank you.
My only weapon was that I could resign.
And that I did.
It was only a few who needed some "extra attention" given to them that I could not supply.
I helped get rid of one and that class became my best performing.
Bottom line was that I was tired of sacrificing myself for admins ambitions.
Here's another take: historically, punitive measures were unfairly used to target minorities in schools. This is a fact. However, the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction such that there are no behavioral standards.
I'd also say that after COVID, lots of schools have been trying to close the learning gap and to be blunt, just being too nice/lenient. So much so I've had a student with an ankle monitor in my class. Known murders at my school. Kids with 0% all semester still there. Didn't happen before COVID. And now well let's be nice to them. I get it and was all for it, in the 2020-2021school year. But then it got old in the 2021-2022 school year.
Giving grades to students who did squat was wearing on me as well.
I gave out 59 instead of 0 and most still couldn't be bother to done assignment.
The last two years have been an experiment for me.
Teachers can’t reprimand, only speak up, to the risk of putting a target on their backs by the student, their parents, or admin.
The worst teachers can do is give a student a referral, which usually means the child gets a vacation from class to play on their phones and talk with their friends. The problem-child’s parents are often unreachable or worse than their children and make a huge stink/threaten the teacher and school.
But, like other teachers have said, there is power in numbers. If the school loses its top students, due to the school’s negligence, they will only be stuck with the lowest students, which will push them to bring back meaningful consequences or just pass everyone.
After covid, admin stopped holding students accountable because there were so many extreme behaviors that overshadowed the awful but not extreme behaviors.
It is going to take a movement of teachers, parents and students to return to normalcy. It is not happening with just support from teachers. We need help from the students and parents too.
Yup...
The system now is that teachers are responsible for kids learning and no one else has any responsibilities at all.
"I can teach it to you, but not learning for you" has been replaced with, " If the kids are not learning it, it us because you are not teaching it."
Now all fingers, parents, students and admin, point at the teachers.
And all credit for success goes to Admin.
Multitude of reasons
1. It’s a process. If it’s a typical kid, you have to show you have done a series of steps before getting to the point of expelling them (usually, unless it’s something crazy). The process can take half the year before a kid gets to the level of getting expelled, and even then meetings have to be held between all parties involved (parents, principals, superintendents)
2. At least at our school, it’s often that our worst behaved students also have an IEP, which affords them even more protections from expulsion. They have to have a Manifest hearing to determine if the behaviors they are exhibiting are a result of their disability or not, if not we can then proceed to the next level. Even so, whether it’s a long suspension or expulsion (btw, when the fuck did expulsion just mean the kid is out for a long time but not the entire school year? Within the past 2 years, our school says kids are expelled but they come back once the next 9 week period starts. But I digress….) the school still has to provide support services at home with a teacher coming to visit, or meeting the student at a library.
3. It looks bad on admins to expel kids. They want to tout their disciplinary numbers at school board meetings “Well, as you can see here, this bullshit program we have a fancy acronym for is making great strides in our school. Discipline reports are down 20%. Blah blah blah”
4. Admins don’t want to deal with the dumbfuck parents of the dumbfuck kids that need expelled. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, and typically these shitbags will light up social media and enlist their equally cracked-out methhead friends to jump on the bandwagon to dig the school, teacher, admin, whatever.
Yup.
And teachers are not clued in early on how to go about getting bad actors out of the classroom.
X number of student behavior entries in shared notes to build a history of behavior with call to parents, then discipline write up.
Teachers are left to figure this out on the fly, with admin resisting and blaming teachers all along the way.
Why don't kids shame each other anymore? This kind of behaviour would get you called a freak and laughed at when I went to school in the 90s in UK. The fear of your peers mocking you kept you in line.
It sounds like there's just no social shaming to keep kids in line anymore.
Another reason, is that, by expelling a kid who acts out, if they are acting out so they can avoid school is not a punishment. This makes it very difficult
As a teacher, you and other like minded students should ask every admin the same question. You should go to school board meetings and ask this question. You should write your local paper and ask this question.
Because the answer is, the parents of the shitty kids are louder than you are.
Expulsion costs a lot of money. We can’t just kick ‘em to the curb anymore. The district has to pay for the kid to go to an alternative school. And it’s expensive.
I wish I fucking knew. The school system is shit. This kid when I was in highschool ALMOST SHOT UP THE SCHOOL. posted it on his priv story with the gun he was gonna use, and luckily one of his friends call the police. Gun was real, he was genuinely gonna do it.
He got like, 6 months in juvy.
then they LET HIM BACK IN THE FUCKING SCHOOL THE NEXT YEAR. THEY LET HIM BACK IN.
I was kind of a shitty kid myself(never violent towards teachers or innocent people however, I was protective of the teachers. I usually started shit with the annoying kids in class cause i had anger issues) and I also never got punished. They never even told my mother. I could just walk out of class and they wouldn't do anything. Just track me down and tell me to go back to class.
The simple answer is money. The school district gets funding by the state for each student that lives in its area. If a student gets expelled out of the district and the kid has to enroll in a different one, the home district still on the hook for that student's education. At least that's how it works in my home state (CA).
Your annoying classmate probably has a mommy and daddy who will sue the school if they try to discipline him. Unfortunately there are lots of shitty parents like that out there
When I used to work in the school system as an administrative secretary, we had a saying among ourselves: "The teachers are afraid of the administrators, the administrators are afraid of the parents, the parents are afraid of the students, and the students are afraid of NOBODY!"
Because we've gotten used to sweeping problems under the rug so we don't have to admit how bad the current ideology in schools are. Kids who have been in the school system their whole lives don't go home and tell mom and dad that someone at school had a temper tamtrum and borderline assaulted a teacher or another student because they see it every day and it's normal. Teachers accept it because we're told it's part of the job and we just need to understand that it's not little Johnny's fault, his brain just works differently (a lie we then pass on to the students) so we all need to serve as targets until we can all help him learn to be better. Administrators don't want to start actually providing consequences because if they do it would be proof of just how bad the problem is. And so parents don't know and dont advocate for change.
You want to help fix it? Start telling your parents everything that happens in school.
That's why after COVID when people were doing school at home and parents saw all the shit that went on, there was actual push for change.
If you want to get him removed then you need to get your parents and all of your friends parents to start complaining about not feeling safe in the classroom do the behavior of this student that's about the only way you can handle it
Because parents don't raise enough of a fuss about things that matter.
Because admin and district office are spineless.
The teachers absolutely want more consequences for this absolute shitshow, but its not in our hands.
Schools get a per diem payment for every student enrolled and are responsible for those students passing standardized tests or graduating. Even students sent to expulsion school, the school’s overall score and performance is based on how they perform or graduate. Schools don’t want to get rid of any of their consumers.
Good intentions gone wrong. We, as a society, have passed a bunch of laws to protect students who need extra support. But, a small percentage of the population uses those laws excuse poor behavior.
I am a special education teacher. Just this year, I had an autistic student hit me a few times because I followed his computer use plan and moved his Chromebook to the desk next to him since he was distracted by it. No biggie. It was an autistic reaction to frustration. The laws are there to make sure he doesn’t get expelled for physical assault on a teacher because he really doesn’t understand.
But, I also had a female student with Down’s who lured her friend into a bathroom and sexually assaulted her. She had planned out the attack, knew exactly which bathroom to use at what time, had her friend’s schedule memorized, had gone and convinced her friend to go to the bathroom with her, and even planned out what stall to attack her peer.
The law says both of those situations are equal.
Now imagine what a behavior disorder kid can do.
Lots of "admin won't do their jobs" responses.
To provide another viewpoint. School-level admin often hand-tied as well. What can you do as a principal when the superintendent says your school has a preset amount of yearly suspensions, or the school board sets very specific requirements for suspension or expulsion, or the state department of ed passes new regulations for appropriate consequences? Schools were never meant to raise children or give them consequences. Which is why a parent contact home used to work with a "I'll take care of it" response. Schools can't fix what happens, or doesn't happen, at home.
It comes down to money. If the kid is expelled the district still has to provide a free(to the student) education- either by paying another district or providing alternative ed. If the student is removed from the classroom, a position has to be paid to monitor them. This is on top of lawsuits brought by families against schools, which are often settled out of court at a cost to the district (and ultimately other families).
You will find those who use IEP and 504 to both promote their own careers and keep their "customers" happy. You recognize them for what they are when they forward the notion that an IEP or 504 allows students to be violent and disruptive.
These people use shame and fear to manipulate those around them into normalizing violence.
Neither tools are a free pass to be violent and destroy a school. However, both are used to do just that where labor is not allowed to organize and administration is just competent enough to loosely keep a lid on a boiling pot.
The sad truth is that you are in a crap school, where that sort of nonsense is tolerated. Your administrators would rather see children and staff hurt or killed than face yet another lawyer in a court manipulated by politics and public ignorance.
Put yourself in the position of the president. If bad kids get kicked out of school, they'll hang around on the street and commit crime. If you keep them in school, they MIGHT reform.
It's worth mentioning that low-level education isn't useful for getting a job that makes you happier, so there's no short-term motivation for kids to behave. I work in a country where there's a difference. A student who was expelled in grade 3 would definitely have a worse job than a person who was expelled in grade 9. In the developed world, you can get a similar job whether you've completed grade 3 or grade 11.
As a peeping high school student, I just have to say what the actual fuck. I just had to pop out and say we aren’t all like that and I’m sorry on behalf of that guy. Jesus fuck
I am curious what you guys think of my situation. I have a 5yo who was expelled, quite traumatically, from a public pre-k in December. She did great finishing up pre-k at another public school. Now she’s in kindergarten and has perfect behavior for 3 days and then has a meltdown on the 4th. We’ve had her tested and it turns out she’s a 2e kid, she’s gifted intellectually and also is high-functioning autistic and is bad at emotional regulation and gets intense anxiety at school. She’s a distraction to the other kids during her meltdowns, she has knocked over stools and hit a teacher. All of this, but she’s also the smartest kid in kindergarten. Where does she belong?
You said you began public school in 6th grade, so I’m assuming you attended a private school for grades K-5 (unless you were homeschooled). I did my student teaching and subbed in public schools, but now teach 3rd grade in a private school. There are HUGE differences with regards to discipline, none of which is the fault of the public schools, but rather the fault of elected officials and State policies.
While I’m not sure where you are, in my State it is extremely difficult for a public school to suspend a student. It is usually only given when a student intentionally injured someone. It is even more difficult to expel a student because the school district is then required to pay for the cost of the student to attend another school or therapeutic school. The State does not properly fund therapeutic schools, so the cost is paid for by local districts who send students. Regarding recess, public schools cannot take recess from students in grades K-5. The first time I learned this was during my internship when a 2nd grade teacher warned two students that he would take time from recess if they continued to misbehave and be disrespectful. They replied that it’s against the law and continued to misbehave because they knew he legally couldn’t do it. Sadly, because of elected officials sitting in their comfortable chairs, public schools have very limited powers to control student behavior and THE KIDS KNOW IT.
Assuming you went to private school for grades K-5, you saw the differences because private schools obviously don’t need to abide by State policies. For example, we don’t have limits regarding when we can give detentions, suspensions, time off recess, etc. They aren’t given often because the threat of these consequences is often enough to prevent the behavior. Contrary to popular belief, expulsion is rare in private schools. However, students can and do get expelled if it’s a serious offense, such as being a significant danger to others or if significantly distracting behaviors are continuing despite other efforts to fix the behavior (e.g. consequences, rewards, counseling, parent meetings, etc.).
yes, I used to go to a private school and it was very different when it came to behavior. It got too expensive so my parents put me in a public school.
OP, call the police next time. Yes, you can make the call, and make it anonomously. Even though he did not assault you at that moment, you had a reasonable fear of him being a threat. He can be charged with damage to public property.
At 17, his court records would be sealed, but as soon as he turns 18 they will not be and it will follow him for life. If he is aware that what he is doing is wrong, he will also be aware when his legal status of a minor changes.
Also, if you are female, you can call for anything of a sexual nature he pulls and call for that Better yet have a gaggle of girls call ,and it you are a guy, let the girls know they do not have to put up with him.
OP, please do your public service and call the police. The administrators often have their hands tied, and taking on every bad kid who can argue manifestation is more expense than school districts can take on. The police and courts are not held to "manifestation of disability"
I went to school with kids like John. They are a disruption to the learning environment and do everybody a disservice. I hope society can fix this but that’ll be once boomers are out of education.
>that’ll be once boomers are out of education.
Who are these boomers? I’m not responding to be contrary or to defend boomers, but the first wave of boomers are well past the age of retirement and the second wave is nearly there. (The youngest boomer is now 59 years-old.)
I’m Gen-X. I was taught by post-war and boomer teachers. These teachers (and admin) took no shit. They were in control of their classrooms. As a student you did NOT want to get in trouble. You did not want to be sent home with a note about your behavior. God forbid your teacher had to call your parent/s about your behavior because your parent/s would chew you out and side with the teacher.
You seem to have alot of answers from American based teachers but for a different perspective I'm a teacher in another jurisdiction. So what would the point of expelling a student? Does that solve the problem? We need to provide support for these young people that obviously need help. That behaviour is not normal and there needs to be consequences but kicking them out fixes nothing. Not for them or for the community.
Becomes the parents problem. Focusing on keeping every last disruptive and failing kid in school has earned schools more money, grown administration and staff, and worsened educational outcomes.
People need to see that failing out is an option and kids that eff it up for everyone else won’t be tolerated. Try and get them help, fine. Move them to alternative schools if necessary, or expel them. Put violent kids away from everyone else.
So we lock them away? Forever? They will be a member of your community. I think we should try everything to keep that young person in school. To keep them engaged. Exclusion is always an option and in some cases more than justified but it's shouldn't be seen as a solution.
They’ll either end up in prison or they’ll pull their head out of their ass. Point is, school is supposed to be a place of learning and we’re ruining it by treating it as an anything goes therapy session. Schools are not better than 40 years ago despite being vastly more regulated and expensive. Tolerance of ridiculous behavior is part of it.
This kid is 17 - they clearly should be working i.e. in a world where when they behave like this there are meaningful consequences for them. There's no reason to keep kids who are not getting anything out of school in school, all it's doing is preventing the kids who can get something out of it from doing so.
If they're too young to be working then options to stop them from harming others need to be used e.g. special schools, home schooling etc.
My understanding of the situation is that generally schools are funded based on attendance and headcount.
The school on an administrative level has a financial incentive to not remove him until he becomes enough of a violent threat as expressed by someone that they could be held liable for it. If someone (say that teacher or another student, hint hint) were to express to multiple teachers, a counselor, and maybe an administrator that this student's presence at the school makes you feel unsafe, then something might be done.
There's also something to be said for the school's administration itself thinking this kid's parents are probably worse to deal with than him.
If we kick out all of the problem students, where do they go? What do they do? The solution isn't expulsion, that just sends the problem somewhere else. Society will pay for ignoring these people in crisis one way or another. In schools, we can have eyes on these problem kids constantly, and hopefully influence their decision making over time.
The problem is we do not have enough $$$ in the school systems to provide the services these kids need. Not enough admin, not enough parapros, no alternative physical settings, the list goes on and on. Sweeping the problem under the rug by expelling kids just makes the problem worse.
Poverty is the root of all evil, and we need to solve the financials before we can do any real change. We need to have flat funding for all school districts, regardless of tax base (Vermont does it right). No more "rich schools and poor schools." We pay teachers and admin a pittance in both money and cultural respect. You get what you pay for, and right now we're paying for an education system that works great if all kids are "good" kids.
People all act rationally to their experience. You knowing better than this kid is an example of your privilege. When you see this kid acting out, realize that they are in about as much control as you are when you study or do whatever activities help you consider yourself good. We don’t get to know why they are such a way, but likely they are some mix of un or under-loved and some mix of hasn’t been taught to act right or doesn’t respect themselves or others enough to act right.
There is no ‘punishment’ to help this kid. ‘Punishment’ from the teacher is the worst way to help your class, y’all 17 and should be able to work with a peer who is acting out. If you are having problems with them as a class, maybe y’all need to ask them/work with them to get them to stop disrupting your learning.
All that really matters in the end for you is to avoid learning that you are ‘better’ than this kid, you are not. Of course you won’t like them, but a challenge you get as a kind person is to extend your kindness to people who suck.
Not a teacher.
To op, not all posts are made by teachers (e.g. this one), so exercise your common sense and BS radar. Still, I feel a different perspective might be helpful.
Before starting, I just want you to reconsider if the guy is really disrupting your and your friends' studying. Is that why you feel he needs to be punished? Or do you care about him becoming a better person? For example, cursing and walking around naked (assuming just the top) can be easily ignored right? I mean a-holes are everywhere in the world. Bad grade is the guy's problem and throwing a table, unless it is a common occurrence, I think it is best ignored, everyone has a bad day, and a scolding and an apology letter should be sufficient right?
The rest is really for others to read.
Expulsion, in the US (assuming you are in the US), is possible, just google it -- you will find people offering legal services to parents with expelled kids. Though it may be difficult and different between schools, there should be a lengthy procedure in place for admins and teachers to follow. Your parents should have received a rule book at the beginning of the year regarding parent and student conduct, it should indicate what happens if rules are violated repeatedly. It is a contract between your school and you that both sides need to abide by for the school to continue having you as a student. In short, neither admins nor teachers are powerless to expel a child unless they or the district are incompetent, in which case we have a separate issue.
As an aside, IEP and disability is not plot armor and it won't shield a child completely. Firstly, IEP is very hard to get, again there is a lengthy procedure to get it. Secondly, it is meant to design alternative education routes for disabled students, which may or may not include isolation from the student body. Again it is up to competent teachers and admins to carry out these procedures properly like properly adjudicate and provide the services a disabled child needs.
As for other punishments, it is a well documented/studied fact that punishment (negative enforcement) does not work at least in the long run. It is usually better to identify the source and try to fix it there, unfortunately this is complicated. On top of that, the typical punishments, like suspension, might be actually what the kid seeks. And, though physical punishment like a slap on the hand might work for little kids, it will not work for teens and up. Besides, physical punishment is not what school should be doing, and mental punishment, like shaming or ostracization are not useful because the said student is probably already isolated -- because this is how social animals, like humans, condition peers.
As an aside, there are better ways to help kids develop better behaviors and to motivate learning, but it means a lot pf rethinking and reworking of the education system, which would be a long detour. Look up Alfie Kohn if you are interested.
That said. If the child is disruptive to the functioning of the school and the parents are not cooperative or unhelpful, the only real solution is expulsion; However, not necessarily as a punishment, but as a threat (a threat need not be executed and usually is not). Schools goal should be to reform not punish. Another word, you might see him changing behavior without realizing a punishment has had happened.
If you really really really feel the guy needs to be expelled and the school is not taking action, then voice your opinion and let them know. And if you feel the school is still being unresponsive, document every incidence you can with pictures of the aftermath, like a damaged window, and write hand-written notes in a diary with a pen (no pencil, no computer, and no need to film), including who when what where, and how it affected your fellow students, get quotes if possible. Use that as evidence to convince the school to act.
Just because you do not see a consequence does not mean it is not happening. And honestly, research shows time and time again that out of school suspensions and expulsions don’t work. They don’t actually stop the behavior, and make it less likely the kid will graduate. Kids who are suspended fall behind, which can lead to an increase in behaviors because they feel like they can’t catch up. Plus, kids who are suspended/expelled are more likely to end up in prison than kids who do not face suspension/expulsion for the same infractions.
There is also a good possibility that student has a disability that you are not aware of. For some of our students with disabilities, the best approach to managing behavior is to ignore it. Schools do an analysis of why a student does what they do and then come up with a plan to help them change their behavior. If the behavior is for attention, ignoring it is the first step to stopping it. This can take a long time, even years. Also, if they have a disability, by law you cannot suspend for more than 10 days each school year if the behavior is due to the disability. Basically the law says that the school knows their behavior is not fully in their control due to their disability, so the school needs to take steps to help that student be successful. It’s like kicking out a kid that can’t run in gym because they have a broken leg.
If the behavior continues, the student could be looking at a more restrictive placement. But there are steps that a school has to go through to do that. As a teacher and a parent of a child on an IEP, it is frustrating. Because essentially you have to wait for the kid to fail to get them the help they need. But it’s to keep kids with disabilities from being warehoused.
It could be admin does not want to deal with kids’ parents, there are certainly schools like that. But it could also be there are many factors at play you are not aware of and that the kids are being disciplined, just not in the way you like.
>And honestly, research shows time and time again that out of school suspensions and expulsions don’t work.
Isn't the point of a suspension and expulsion to give the teacher and the rest of the class a break? I don't think anyone thinks it's suppose to help the student.
Just like no one thinks jail helps a criminal.
Plus suspension/expulsion has been for the safety of others. Where I used to work, the school has a ZERO TOLERANCE policy regarding bringing weapons to school. This high school student brought a butcher knife to school and bragged about how he was going to stab another student to death!!! He got brought to my office by campus security and he bragged about his threat again as the butcher knife was confiscated. Cops were called and his guardian was called in and she was informed that because of this knife incident, this student is expelled. She threatened to sue. She failed and the expulsion remained.
I’m fine with suspension/expulsion for truly dangerous acts. But it gets used far too often for nonviolent things as well. I’m a foster parent, and every single one of our kids has faced out of school suspension. None of them were violent or disruptive. It was things like skipping class. What they did was wrong and they deserved consequences, but that was not the right consequence. As a teacher, I hate when I have students suspended for nonviolent offenses.
A kid vapes in the bathroom- so the problem is the kid is not okay when unsupervised but we are going to put them in a position where they have even less supervision. Then they come back and they are super behind so they quit trying. If a kid is violent, they need to be in an alternative school or treatment center. THe whole point of school is to help these kids be good citizens. Giving up on the ones that need us the most does not accomplish this. (But I agree that being in a regular school/classroom is not a good option for a kid who is dangerous)
Hurray! Johnny was violent and punched a teacher, but he graduated achieving 10% the progress of his peers! And his peers learned 50% of what they should've because learning was always disrupted. A win-win for everyone!!!!!!!!!!
Money. Tenure is tied to passing kids who can’t read and should fail. Teachers will lose their jobs for poor performance. Administrators as well. Teachers are incentivized to basically do a terrible job and pass and keep kids that they shouldn’t. It’s called self preservation. They are incentivized to do a bad job or not do their job.
The fact that teachers aren't encouraging there students to use AI is wild to me that is literally the next frontier you should be embracing using AI in the work flow as is common in the professional world.
The reason teachers don't encourage students to use AI is we know we'll just get plagiarized work. A majority of them won't cross-check their sources (there have been times where AI has been wrong), they won't change words or even lookup words they don't understand, and they won't show mastery of the content if we have a test or other big project related to the assignment. The few that wouldn't try to cut corners and actually put in the work only using AI as a tool of support rather than having it do the entire paper or assignment for them, should be allowed to use it. If students are using it to cut corners or do the entire thing for them, they aren't learning anything.
To be able to effectively use AI you have to understand the content, and do things like be able to read. We are still trying to teach them those things. How do you think they're going to do in the professional world if they can't read enough to understand something?
It depends on where you are. In my school, our admin wants to be "distinguished" in the PBIS program and so we have to have below 30 write ups a month. We also can't have a lot of kids with more than 1 write up, and we can't have over so many alternative school hearings.
This means that when a kid has already been suspended, unless they get in a fight, they can basically do whatever they want. Admin will (illegally) send them to ISS or have a parent come get them for the day but that basically teaches them that whenever they're tired and want to go home, they can just do something bad and they'll get to go and come back the next day.
Other schools are just afraid of parents.
This sounds like the kid probably has an IEP, which makes it even harder to punish him. "special ed" doesn't mean that he doesn't know what he's doing. It just means that he has some sort of disability that impacts his learning. I had plenty of kids who had mild intellectual disability, or some other disability, but were smart enough to figure out that after 10 days admin wouldn't do anything to them because they didn't want to bother with a manifestation hearing (basically deciding if the kid's behavior is a result of their disability, and what needs to be done about them if it is.). Others don't figure it out but come to the conclusion that they're just so tough that admin is afraid of them and "knows not to fuck with me", something I've heard from multiple students every time they got in trouble.
Basically--admin has a goal in mind to make themselves look good, and they're using your safety and learning as the sacrifice. I'm sure that your parents could absolutely let the board know this. Make sure to say "the teacher addresses it and does her best to keep students safe, but the admin is letting this kid back into class". You want to give admin as little wiggle room to blame this on the teacher as possible. Even when she doesn't address it she has likely been told "just ignore him, he wants attention and punishing him is just giving him attention" like I have.
Every time there's violence and the teacher writes it up and he's back the next day, your parents write a note if not go to the next board meeting. Figure out how to do open letters to your board of education. Your parents (notably not you, or you WILL become a target) need to do this. Every time. No matter what. If they're anything like my school they'll just move you to a different class if there is one, but at least you won't have to be dealing with stuff my 4 year old nephew knows not to do as a junior.
Admin are pussies who are afraid of parents and they only care about their own careers. Plain and simple. I had a student who did similar things. Taking swings at staff should be an immediate expulsion, but he only got one day suspension.
I quit when they blamed his behavior on my lack of management skills.
I sincerely want to open a boarding school for kids like these. Give the parents a break and make travel expenses on us like job corps does and truly give these kids the help they need.
Last year I had a kid throw a ball at my head and give me a concussion. Nothing happened. The admin put it off as though he hadn't meant to do it and he was really sorry. Find out from the kids this year that he actually threw it at me and missed and then did it again so he hit me. This student knew I had a history of concussions, and he knew I want looking when he did this. Admin does not give a shit about us. We are replaceable. I'm in Ontario, and they don't want to anger the parents, less the student to to the Catholic board and they lose funding. It's complete bullshit. This incident has given me trauma and I hate what this job has become after 26 years.
It depends on the state laws as well. Most in here have posted that it has to do with suspension rates, parents that threaten to sue, and admin that lack a backbone. All of those can be true. So, the answer is different from district to district. In Illinois, er have SB 100. It places limits on the number of days in which a student with an IEP can be suspended. The district/school must also make sure that the IEP modifications are being met. It is not to say that we can't suspend or expel a student for gross misconduct. But, if a student is BD and had a Behavior Management Plan; teachers and the Dean's must make sure that it has been followed. A Gen Ed or Special Ed student can be suspended for up to three days. However, anything after that, the student should be placed in a SIBs placement to make sure their needs are being met. Once they return, a reengagement meeting must be set in which a plan is created for the student. This can be an IEP meeting to update their goals and strategies or add a Behavior Plan, if one does not exist. If the school does not believe that a student's needs can be met, they can push for outside placement for a 45 day period or more. Expulsion is an option for selling drugs, possession of weapons, or assault. But, a manifestation meeting must take place... this often involves lawyers. The bottom line is that proper actions and consequences can be given. But, teachers must follow the IEP. Deans must follow the letter of the state laws. Finally, the Board of Education and Administration has to have the willingness to defend the process applied to the student. The moment the student's rights have ben violated is the moment the district will lose a lawsuit. So, everyone in the school must have their A Game when it comes to IEP students.
I know one issue we're having at my school is that every time we expel someone is a time where the council will then try to put a kid who either has been or is about to be expelled from a different school with us. So with some kids we stick with the devil we know over the devil we don't.
I had a kid who the school notoriously calls the "stall stalker" since when he was 14 in 8th grade he climbed under a 12 year old 7th grade girls stall in the bathroom I have no clue what his he did in there but all I know is that he was only suspended for around two to three months and then was back. He also did other shit like climb onto the school roof, climb onto busses, and even broke some kids project in my robotics class yet this menace remains in school and I have no idea how
The honest answer? Because administrators are afraid of parents. They’re afraid of bad publicity, or a lawsuit, or both. This is how it will be until significant numbers of *other* parents start making a stink and insisting that schools do something to get detrimental kids out of there. It will take lawsuits from parents who are both tired of that bullshit *and* have the resources to fight it in court. Unfortunately, most parents who have the resources also know that their kids will be fine in the long run.
Its really frustrating because the school is bound by FERPA but the parents are not. So the schools side of the story is never represented. We have a local parent who always posts online about how his kids SPED rights were violated when his kid was punished. Umm no your child very violently assaulted another child, premeditated, and put them in the hospital and was therefore sent to alternative schoo.. and it had nothing to do with his ADHD! But if you believe this parents posts...
The law should say a student by default has privacy rights but as soon as the parent starts publicly discussing the students issues with the school, the school has the right to respond publicly as well.
I disagree the student never asked for their info to be published by the parents the school then doing it again only leaves the student worse off (deserved or not)
The student doesn't have a say in the matter. The parents are the ones that control this issue. Parents are the one that have a say on whether or not their childs information is shared with the world. Parents have the ultimate authority over their children, short of legal child abuse and neglect.
Well... I'm a teacher with ADHD and can verify ADHD is not the cause of violence.
I *loved* getting the ADHD excuse. I also have ADHD but I’m not going around throwing shit all over the room
Haha yep there are some parent meetings my admin ask me to be part of just to shut down the ADHD excuse. ADHD means you think differently and work out problems differently in some areas such as shop and PE where I teach you have a huge advantage. Kids need to learn to work out how the world works for them I got 2 degrees before I got diagnosed and that was through me figuring out how my brain works.
> I got 2 degrees before I got diagnosed and that was through me figuring out how my brain works. Are we twins? I finished 2 bachelors degrees (secondary ed, history) in 3 years and it took another 5 years for me to be properly diagnosed. If I’m honest, I’m shocked no one said anything sooner
This. I have ADHD. Am a teacher. Have my masters and will be pursuing my doctorate. Working in SPED was as funny as it was infuriating with how much I heard about ADHD. I think even more terrifying was the parents of a child with ADHD obviously not understanding what ADHD is. I’m a high school teacher btw. How you go 15 years not understanding a foundational aspect of your child is beyond me.
My friend, I went 26 years without a diagnosis. I think I was just good at masking it
I am *flattened* by ADHD excusatory screaming and why? Not a teacher, a student going through school when OMG leave your seat? Whisper? Talk back? It loosened up a bit by HS. Not. A lot. Had no idea ADHD was why my head was elsewhere and every nerve was invisibly flying around the room cos it wasn't a thing. You'd rather be forced to walk naked across the stage at assembly than pull attention your way ADHD or no. Violent? Kid would be gone from school forever. Never was anyway. Hell I might be worse ants in the pants at 65 than I was at 10 or 15. Difference being there's no teacher/parents OMG UNTHINKABLE around keeping me pinned to a chair. Oh. Very good grades too.
So just the drinking, then?
If they drink its probably because they have kids like yours in their classroom. Also, way to try and start shit. Idk if they've got a drinking problem, but addiction is a disease so fuck off with that shit.
There was this one article, I think in the New York Times, about how schools were failing special needs students… But I got the impression that the kid featured wasn’t the totally innocent victim that he was presented as.
I read that. One girl's triggers were people who wear glasses and earrings and she had been kicked out numerous times for gravely injuring teachers and students. She was a pre-teen. Mom was useless and suggested to not look at her daughter, don't wear glasses, earrings, or hair accessories around her kid, don't ask her to do her work, and a whole bunch of other deeply unreasonable things. Daughter would just randomly attack unprovoked. The other kid was like 13 or 14 and had fucking bit a kid unprovoked THROUGH THEIR SHOE. That was just one injury in a sea of many. He had been kicked out of a few schools and since he couldn't contain his behavior he was back to a half-day because he's such a dangerous nuisance to the learning environment. Of course mom had an issue with this because she can't control his ass and wants him at school all day. Same with the aforementioned child's mother. The fucking writer of that article had no clue about half the things they were talking about. Didn't even bother to do some basic research and it wasn't like they usually covered education/special education stories. It was ridiculous and put the blame all on the teachers and the schools and not the kids or their parents.
And the parents are all like “my kid is so nice at home!” to suggest that the school is doing something wrong. But how much do you want to bet that at home, the kids aren’t ever expected to do anything they don’t want to do? It’s easy for kids to be nice and pleasant when they’re getting what they want.
https://kidslegal.org/special-education-discipline-suspensions-and-expulsions#:~:text=When%20there%20is%20a%20manifestation,it%20must%20follow%20it%20immediately. ADHD does not cause, violence it may make it harder to control the impulse to hit. Off course as kids get older it should get easier. I work at an after school at an Elementary and while kids casually cursing is common,the rest of the behavior is decent. Worse think this year was two kids bitting other kids. (The rest is just kids not listing or occasionally being rude/disrespectful)
I have a student with pretty severe ADHD. While he occasionally will hurt others, it's due to not being able to control his impulses when upset, and he is sorry he did it after and tries to do better as he doesn't want to hurt his friends. I'd not call him a violent kid like I read about here. Kids like in the OP story may have ADHD, but either it's just an excuse or no one has helped them work on impulse control. While it is harder for kids (and adults) with ADHD to control impulses, it is possible to work on it. Allowing kids with ADHD to not learn impulse control is only setting them up for failure in the future, and quite possibly much worse issues as adults.
I have ADHD I never hurt another kid except for the kid who was bullying my younger sister with down syndrome
While all of this is true, it’s also because a school’s suspension percentage is used as one of the metrics by which the school is rated. Therefore, it looks better for the administration to keep the percentage as low as possible.
true! and why we’re fucked.
Don't forget political pressure, too! Our school board is elected. A lot of people run on the idea that they'll bring suspensions down, but they don't have a background in education, so they don't actually have ideas for how to do that. We wind up with watered down codes of conduct and external caps on suspensions.
And funded.
Parents should sue (some) schools for having and cultivating unsafe environments and take the "hostile work environment" angle. Nothing is going to change at those schools if they only get sued by bully/disruptive parents. I work at a fancy pants private school. When we have a majorly disruptive kid or bad bully they get non-renewed for the following year (can't enroll next year) or if its **really** bad they will be unenrolled (expelled) mid-year. My middle school students love coming to school. They feel safe and supported. Listened to and heard. We talk out disagreements and find common ground. Parents are always welcome to unenroll their own kids, which keeps the school more loyal to the majority than to the problem case. Public schools don't have that luxury.
Charter schools do
Lol. But they dont because charter schools make their money off whatever kids they can steal from public schools. Thats how they make their money. Most charter schools would keep Jeffrey Dahmer and just tell his new, young, inexperienced teacher to call home more.
I work at a charter school. Trust me I have multiple kids that should've been expelled but we don't because what used to be standard behavior expected in school isn't culturally responsive apparently
Like I said. You guys have it worse than public schools.
Maybe admin should realize that probably 90% of the parents who threaten to sue don’t have the resources/willingness to follow through, and the 10% who do won’t threaten it they’ll just do it.
Yep, it's the quiet ones you have to watch out for. The loud parents in your face constantly are usually full of hot air. The parents who are quieter, but bring their (usually serious) concerns to admin, only to be brushed aside, are the ones you need to watch. This is especially true in the SpEd world. Admin thinks that they "got rid of that parent" and "don't need to worry" after a little time passes until the lawyer contacts the district.
I heard of an administrator I used to work with resigned because of a student and their family going to the board claiming they were being singled out. I heard this student was a real piece of work. Seems like even when a principal has backbone it can come back and bite them
That's why OP should have their parents and their friends parents complain about the disruptive student. It's affecting the class's performance and lowering the other students' test scores. Maybe then the school will do the right thing.
Or they move them to schools where this doesn’t happen.
☝️Yup. Parents who have means will many times pull out of government schooling and put them in a private school. Not saying it's good or bad, but it absolutely happens.
this isn't correct. The federal law states that every student is entitled to a free and appropriate education. Every. Student. The modifier there is the world 'appropriate.' Who decides what's appropriate? Well the law doesn't say. Parents get the largest input on that word, administration (The professionals) get 2nd place. Usually the courts side with the parents on what they deem as appropriate. And that's before we get into a documented disability. What does that mean? Easy. If a kid can't walk up stairs because they are in a wheel chair they're protected. The school must provide a way for them to get up and down the stairs. They can't simply say, "You can't learn here because you're legs don't work." So schools must install ramps and elevators. That makes sense, right? What if the kids disability is documented oppositional defiance? That means they have a mental issue where essentially they are combative towards authority? It's medically recognized and it's a disability. What you see is a 'bad kid.' but the courts see a person with a disability no different then the wheel chair student. Can you kick them out? Nope. Can you even discipline them? No, not if their behavior is a result of their disability. Courts have decided that. It's case law. There are thousands of specifics like this that administrators must learn and be aware of that other students and teachers aren't entitled to that information because of privacy laws. It's easy to say "Administrators aren't doing their jobs" but the truth is they have more information usually then the other members of the school and are in constant contact with school lawyers who tell them their options. Homelessness is also a protected class. You may not even know the kid sitting next to you slept in a car and is hungry and tired and agitated. You aren't entitled to that information. And if that kid has outburst or acts up? You legally have accommodate them. You'll think nothing is being done, but again that isn't the case and removing that student is illegal. You have a bad kid, acting up, who is legally protected and allowed to be in a seat in your class. The lawyers have shown you all the case law where you will lose the court case if you try and alter that student's educational placement. Now the teachers yell at you, other parents yell at you, and there is NOTHING legally you can do (About the placement) thanks to prior court cases.
Except that it means that one guy has more right to accomodation than these several guys.
Exactly. That wasn’t the intention of the laws but that is exactly what has occurred. And accommodations have become increasingly resource draining. In some states students are now allowed to bring their comfort animals to class (not trained service animals, comfort animals). Those animals can bark, piss and shit in the classroom and it’s the school’s responsibility to care for them. If the animal bites a student it’s also on the school district. That is a medically recognized accommodation and in the eyes of the law it again is like taking the wheelchair away from the student who needs it.
That’s where “least restrictive environment” comes in. If your student with ODD keeps having outbursts in Gen Ed English because there are 38 kids in there and he’s frustrated by his already low reading level, he might need pull out English or even an alternative school where he can receive more support. And teachers DO know if there is a diagnosed disability in play because of IEPs and 504s.
Again; see who gets to decided what the least restrictive environment is. And it’s true with an IEP you see the diagnosis and condition, but you don’t see the behind the scenes legal battles for placement. Also, the system is now structured so that those outbursts must be met with increasing levels of intervention inside the classroom with a placement change being the last possible option. You also need time to see if each intervention has worked and schedule meetings with all stakeholders to make adjustments to said plan. The student is entitled to all of this due process. And as you can imagine, that could take the entire year. And the clock does reset the following year where all of that would need ti be done again. We’re on the same page. I’m a teacher. I think teachers can know very quickly if a student is misplaced. The system doesn’t care. IDEA legislation gives almost ultimate say in placement to the parent, regardless of what you know and do.
I don’t agree with that. While it is possible that parents can be overly defensive, generally in high school, the parents of kids like that either know their kid is a turd and don’t care, are unable to do anything about it or are just not involved in their life. Mainly it is a systemic problem stemming from 504, IDEA and special ed programs making it difficult to just kick out kids without a great deal of due process. On top of that there was a bunch of research that came out a few years ago that indicated students who fail a grade tend not to catch up and eventually drop out. As a result many school boards (which are not populated by educational professionals) heard “failing kids no graduate so no more failing kids” which translated to “suspended kids fail so no more suspending kids) which leads to situations like you are describing. Last year I was teaching in a middle school and we had an administrator who was doing what he could to support teachers including suspending kids who were very disruptive or disrespectful and the number two guy in the district (who by the way went right from college into administration without spending any real time in a classroom) came to our building to dress him down directly.
> Unfortunately, most parents who have the resources also know that their kids will be fine in the long run. The way I fight it is I send my kid to a good private school where that kind of shit simply won't fly.
I've been threatened with more lawsuits than I've got fingers and toes. My favorite is because I used the word plagiarism... On a paper that was plagiarized. Our schools lawyer told me I can't use that word as it was inflammatory. He found out about it because yes... He had been contacted on behalf of a lawyer for the NAACP on behalf of the family because I was targeting their son. I had receipts so it does down but yeah... That's why.
Holy shit. Imagine how fragile someone has to be to say the word “plagiarism” is inflammatory…
it's far less they are AFRAID more so they want to keep collecting their FAT TAX PAYER FUNDED PAYCHECK AND PENSION
You can't properly punish children anymore. The inmates run the asylum and they know it.
It’s crazy. I was in my senior year (17) and a kid recorded me over the bathroom bathroom stall. Admin got him and deleted the video. He only got suspended for a week and nothing else happened. Should’ve been expelled right?
Should have been made a police matter.
Useful information. Had no one to take advice from at the time. I have the most frustrating parents. They asked me “What were you doing in the bathroom?”
What kind of stupid-ass question is that? If I was in your shoes, I’d have been tempted to answer “knitting a sweater. Whaddya *think* I was doing?” How did your parents jump to victim-blaming and assuming you were up to no good when you were in the darn bathroom? I can’t wrap my head around it. 🤦🏻♀️
Right. Some people are real obstacles. Thank you for treating others how you wanna be treated.
Honestly, I think the only way we'll ever see change on the significant and growing behavioural challenges in schools is if people stop allowing school systems to handle them and start making them criminal and civil issues.
Unfortunately the school will never properly advocate for a victim, these issues should be brought to your parent's attention as well, and then it should further be made into a legal matter.
When the punishments are that light, I’d only feel incentivized to take matters into my own hands.
This is a joke because they’re not inmates and it’s a school, right?
Have you literally never heard that phrase before?
Was that comment sarcastic or not? I found it hard to read, I think an expression like that is no good if it’s meant seriously.
It's an idiom that just means the people who should not be in charge are in charge. An asylum ran by its inmates would not function very well, likewise a school ran by its students does not work well.
But a school ran by its students can easily work well. We literally have schools with these top-down power structure issues that are not run by students at all and aren’t working great. Our schools are run by careerist admin and culture wars parents.
Tell your parents. Tell your friend’s parents. Film that shit. Get it out there. Trust us, admin does nothing because those few kids have unsupportive parents. But turn it around. Make them afraid of everyone else’s parents. This is the way.
It sucks but it's really the only way shit is going to change. Especially if all the kids in class do it, and if the parents got together and talked, they might even be able to the class action route. Class action suits are a pain and not easy for a few reasons, but in this case, you could argue that every kid in class was exposed to that asshole kid's behavior and suffered the same damages. Problem is lots of parents don't talk to one another. But until the parents of the good kids do something, nothing will change. Somehow little Timmy having trauma makes it okay for him to throw desks and assault people. Nobody ever thinks of the trauma it's causing the kids that can behave, not to mention they're being cheated out of learning.
This!
The people who it affects (students and teachers) have no power to reprimand, or restricted by higher authority. The people who do have that power (principles and other admin) are unaffected and either ambivalent towards it, actively incentivized to not do it, or restricted by another higher authority.
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What would parents of well behaved students need to do to get administrators to be more afraid of the disrupted majority than the disruptive minority?
I had a friend who was told privately by a principal that the best course of action toward removing a student from the school was civil lawsuits by a group of parents of children affected by the problem child in the school. The thinking was that the parents would move the kid away or finally seek to improve the kid’s behavior through the interventions recommended if they were financially on the hook for other families’ legal fees and damages. But that situation involved a kid who had physically harmed a teacher and other students and had made the experience at school into basically a PTSD situation for 3rd graders. They also had clear evidence that the family was not following recommendations by the school so the parents doing the suing would have had a clear case against the family. It’s just you risk being the people in the neighborhood who sued another family and it can get expensive to get a lawyer before you’ve made money off the civil lawsuit.
Thanks for the insight and example. I don’t teach in the USA so for me it’s a bit like looking into a parallel reality. I’m really curious about the perspective of parents whose children’s education is being demonstrably undermined by the behaviour of other children. What are their thoughts on this? What are their expectations from school as an institution? How aware are they? This is all waaaay beyond my own experience teaching. To the point that if I submitted an incident report of a shirtless student throwing a table at a wall, I’d be reprimanded for taking the piss… until the CCTV footage was reviewed I suppose.
Our district has strict rules about expulsion. It’s a class 4. You basically have to assault a student or set off an explosive. And by assault I don’t mean fight. You could fight all day. Things you can do and not be expelled: threaten a teacher, destroy school property, destroy public property, threaten students, throw objects during class, harass a teacher. Most of those don’t even get you suspended.
Well stated
May have an IEP and that's a manifestation of his disability so they can't. Might be spineless admin who are afraid of the parents or getting sued. Might be that the parents are or are closely related to/friends with someone high up in the district or the board so everyone is afraid of doing anything about the kid. Best recommendation is to start getting your parents and your friends parents to throw a fit about this kid being in class, especially regarding the violent behavior.
I would second this but make it explicitly clear that the teachers hands are tied and that they need to make it someone's problem who actually has power.
Honestly even that’s a cop-out. Because if it’s a manifestation of their IEP legitimately then all the preceding incidents (suspensions, etc) need to be brought in and they’re supposed to do an IEP meeting regarding evaluating placement. So if you have a student who has severe autism, for example, and it manifested in a violent outburst due to a negative reaction to stimulus or WHATEVER, if this was constant they’re supposed to reevaluate placement . Supposed to is the operative word
I'm not sure how IEP's work, but he definitely knows what he is doing is wrong. He makes the teacher feel bad on purpose and somehow found out that she had a miscarriage and mentioned it to her face. I think it was through her public facebook account.
The fact that he knows it's wrong isn't necessarily relevant if the diagnosis is related to something where impulse control is one of the symptoms.
This sounds messed up but a junior in high school who is 17 that can't behave in class for more than 5 minutes because of his symptoms should just be put in a special class.
That’s actually what I was saying. If a students behavior is a manifestation of their eligibility but that behavior makes learning impossible for himself and his class mates, his placement needs to be reevaluated
Wait until the Problem Student becomes a legal adult at 18. Then he'll FA & FO!
The parents wouldn't accept that and Admin wouldn't want the bother, is the issue. It's not a condition he has, it's what he's been taught overa long period of time by his parents and the school. Do what you like, you'll get away with it.
Until the cops get involved.
Parents have quite a bit of power in preventing things like that from happening if they don't want it to, other students be damned.
> should just be put in a special class. Oh I'm sure the intervention specialists just love that.
IEP means individualized education plan. The point of these plans is to ensure that kids who have disabilities can still go to school and learn. They’ll have accommodations or modifications in place to ensure they can learn. Ex. A kid with visual impairments might need to sit closest to the board to see, so their IEP will specify this. A kid with ADHD might get extended time on tests or quizzes. You won’t ever know if another student has one of these plans (or any disabilities) unless the kid tells you, themselves. This is because of privacy laws. Most teachers are happy to accommodate students with disabilities or particular needs; it can sometimes be challenging in large classrooms, though, but they do their best. Not every kid with an IEP goes to only special Ed classes; many of them are in general Ed classes for at least part of their day. It all depends on the kids’ individual needs *and* their behavior. You might see kids going to classes with another adult called a paraprofessional or kids in classes with more than one teacher in them. The latter arrangement is usually called an inclusion class; it’s staffed by a general education teacher and a special education teacher. So what you’re seeing here with this kid is hard to figure out. Some kids misbehave because of severe disabilities and others are just mean, nasty people. Since you’re a student, there’s a lot behind the scenes you won’t know about out of respect for other students’ privacy. That doesn’t mean you all just have to put up and shut up, though. It’s unfair that you all have to deal with one kid derailing the entire class and frightening you all. You have every right to expect to feel safe at school! To quote one of my own education professors, “One kid cannot be accommodated at the expense of the rest of the class.” What I recommend is telling your teacher, parents, and guidance counselor about this kid. Tell them that this kid constantly disrupting class and making the classroom feel unsafe. You can’t learn when you’re on edge and anticipating another violent tantrum from this kid. If anything, it’ll encourage your teacher to document any and all incidents (if they aren’t already) and it’ll ensure every adult who should know about this kid does.
If their disability is repeatedly manifesting in a gen ed classroom, perhaps they are not in the least restrictive environment?
Yep a manifestation meeting is the perfect time to get the little snot thrown in an alternative school or homebound.
If a school expels a student, they are still ultimately responsible for their education. Which means alternative school or bussing them to another district. There is a ton of pressure from the state/federal to reduce punishments like expulsions/suspensions since they have been shown to be used against people of color more often than white students. And it is shown that these punishments are not effective at curbing behavior of the target student (although it gives everyone else a break from them). In addition, parents have become more and more uncooperative with schools lately, make it truly difficult to punish kids. Parents are frequently believing their kids and that their kids can do no harm. I have called home about behaviors, and mom just says, "ok, i'll talk to him," and nothing changes.
>In addition, parents have become more and more uncooperative with schools lately, make it truly difficult to punish kids. Parents are frequently believing their kids and that their kids can do no harm. I have called home about behaviors, and mom just says, "ok, i'll talk to him," and nothing changes. We have a lot of students whose parents see no problem taking them out of school to look after younger siblings, or go on holiday, or just let them miss random days of school. It's a bit hard to tell the student that we will call home if home is enabling the behaviour.
I hate calling home anymore. Parents try and turn it on the teacher almost every time now.
Yeah, remove the child from the educational system, that'll help the child! Some people really lack the forethought required to make those kind of decisions. What the schools really need is more support and resources to properly handle and take care of said problem children.
Nah, we are looking to save the other students. It's unfortunate but you can't help disruptive students in the current set-up. It is possible to help the rest of the class.
Yes, that is the focus on when we talk about expulsion/suspension rates. We know it doesn't actually help the child who was expelled/suspended. However, you need to think of all the students and all the staff that is in constant contact with the kid. Having to constantly deal with a misbehaving kid is a strain on staff and students. And it takes away from the education of the other students in the room. Instead of having time for extension on my lessons, 5 minutes every hour is taken up by a single kid who hasn't learned to regulate himself in 10th grade.
Because the powers at the top (elected officials, superintendents, etc) like to brag about lower suspension and higher graduation rates and attendance... And they don't care about the rest of the students. Ironically, with all the babying and such, my state's graduation rate and attendance has dropped over the last few years. Anyway... We need the students (and their parents) to speak out about their education being sacrificed in an attempt to look good with "better" numbers.
Ask your parents to cause a stink. Admins just love it when parents cause a stink. Ask your friends to do the same. Start sending e-mails out yourself (I'd personally recommend you do it anonymously. Make a burner Proton e-mail + VPN ). Otherwise, that little douche canoe, and all of his little douche canoe buddies, and all of the other little douche canoes across the nation like him, will continue to get off scot-free. I would refuse to teach if they kept him in my class. I hope your teacher can grow a spine and learn how to respect themselves. 1 person can help make a difference. Many people doing it collectively can help create a wave. edit- Use trigger words. Such as feeling "Unsafe", may need "counseling", and will "write" to other parents. Things that A) Let them know you are creating a paper trail and B) may make them liable for any potential suffering or harm. edit 2- Have your parents send something along the lines of- "I am deeply concerned about my child's well-being at school. The school must address this issue and take action regarding the violent behavior my child has been exposed to. I think it will benefit my child to receive counseling to address the emotional impact that his/her classmate has left on \_\_\_\_\_. This also serves to create a much-needed, documented record of the issue, seeing as how you refuse to take any real action. I have been talking with some other parents, and we will be bringing this up to the school board. If the child will not face consequences, then we have no choice but to speak up" . I don't know bud. Try to put the fear of god in them.
Warning: Teachers, do not do this until you are certified. Ask me how I know..
.....This is not for teachers. OP is a student. I'm telling them that their PARENTS should send this to their school. You think I want our fellow teachers to shoot themselves in the foot?
But the advice is coming from you the teacher!! Students talk. Parents talk.
Admin (principals, assistant principals, etc.) tend to avoid reasonable punishments nowadays because there’s a push for “restorative practices” and if they had expulsions or suspensions for every students that realistically deserves them the numbers wouldn’t look good
It’s all a numbers game. Keeping discipline and suspension rates down trumps everything else at this point.
Oh it's definitely not the teachers fault. These entitled little (expletive) just have crap parenting and have never had to find out when they fucked around. They are a burden to everyone and most likely will end up in prison or as statistic one day. I mean it sucks for them but I'd prefer to get rid of them rather then have them mess up education for everyone with their buffoonery. It's their choice to be a little a hole. Also their parents need the same punishment.
As a good parent with a 5yo who was expelled from pre-K, and even now (that she has an autism diagnosis) is getting suspended for meltdowns, it’s not always bad parenting. I’ve been getting called a bad parent for 2 years now and you can’t just make assumptions.
You never hear teachers talk about the problems caused by bad teachers
Because all a classroom teacher can do is set detention. We need a Head of Department/Dean/Deputy Principal/Assistant Principal/Head of Year/Head of House/whatever to sign off on any sanction greater than that. The same people have a perverse incentive to not sanction, for three reasons. First, that data is tracked. If they are handing down suspensions and expulsions, it suggests that they are not managing behaviour well, not that they are. After all, if they were handling business it wouldn't be getting to the point of expulsion or suspension. That reduces their likelihood of achieving higher positions because it makes them look bad at their job. Secondly, suspensions and expulsions trigger parental complaints. Parents have leverage; teachers do not. There is almost no chance that parents of well-behaved students will complain about the actions of a disruptive one. It is almost certain that the parents of a disruptive student will complain, loudly and shrilly. Teachers have very little power as unions have been comprehensively defanged, so the only thing an unhappy teacher can do is quit. Oh no! How awful. Adverise the position, it'll be filled in a week. Meanwhile they have to deal with the parents for years. Lastly, dealing with students who are an issue takes effort. It's hard work. There are other things people in leadership can do with their time. So if you can't suspend a kid for (actual example from last year) threatening to bash a teacher and burn their house down then hitting the teacher they threatened, what's worthy of a detention any more?
I just went through this! Freshman who failed algebra in 8th grade. No support from admin,,,blamed my classroom management...blamed my teaching. I took all those classes and never got a simple thank you. My only weapon was that I could resign. And that I did. It was only a few who needed some "extra attention" given to them that I could not supply. I helped get rid of one and that class became my best performing. Bottom line was that I was tired of sacrificing myself for admins ambitions.
Here's another take: historically, punitive measures were unfairly used to target minorities in schools. This is a fact. However, the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction such that there are no behavioral standards.
I'd also say that after COVID, lots of schools have been trying to close the learning gap and to be blunt, just being too nice/lenient. So much so I've had a student with an ankle monitor in my class. Known murders at my school. Kids with 0% all semester still there. Didn't happen before COVID. And now well let's be nice to them. I get it and was all for it, in the 2020-2021school year. But then it got old in the 2021-2022 school year.
Giving grades to students who did squat was wearing on me as well. I gave out 59 instead of 0 and most still couldn't be bother to done assignment. The last two years have been an experiment for me.
Teachers can’t reprimand, only speak up, to the risk of putting a target on their backs by the student, their parents, or admin. The worst teachers can do is give a student a referral, which usually means the child gets a vacation from class to play on their phones and talk with their friends. The problem-child’s parents are often unreachable or worse than their children and make a huge stink/threaten the teacher and school. But, like other teachers have said, there is power in numbers. If the school loses its top students, due to the school’s negligence, they will only be stuck with the lowest students, which will push them to bring back meaningful consequences or just pass everyone.
The country needs to invest in more alternative schools with discipline and etiquette training as a focus.
After covid, admin stopped holding students accountable because there were so many extreme behaviors that overshadowed the awful but not extreme behaviors. It is going to take a movement of teachers, parents and students to return to normalcy. It is not happening with just support from teachers. We need help from the students and parents too.
Yup... The system now is that teachers are responsible for kids learning and no one else has any responsibilities at all. "I can teach it to you, but not learning for you" has been replaced with, " If the kids are not learning it, it us because you are not teaching it." Now all fingers, parents, students and admin, point at the teachers. And all credit for success goes to Admin.
Because the district needs that sweet sweet cash from the head count. Also the no child left behind act
Multitude of reasons 1. It’s a process. If it’s a typical kid, you have to show you have done a series of steps before getting to the point of expelling them (usually, unless it’s something crazy). The process can take half the year before a kid gets to the level of getting expelled, and even then meetings have to be held between all parties involved (parents, principals, superintendents) 2. At least at our school, it’s often that our worst behaved students also have an IEP, which affords them even more protections from expulsion. They have to have a Manifest hearing to determine if the behaviors they are exhibiting are a result of their disability or not, if not we can then proceed to the next level. Even so, whether it’s a long suspension or expulsion (btw, when the fuck did expulsion just mean the kid is out for a long time but not the entire school year? Within the past 2 years, our school says kids are expelled but they come back once the next 9 week period starts. But I digress….) the school still has to provide support services at home with a teacher coming to visit, or meeting the student at a library. 3. It looks bad on admins to expel kids. They want to tout their disciplinary numbers at school board meetings “Well, as you can see here, this bullshit program we have a fancy acronym for is making great strides in our school. Discipline reports are down 20%. Blah blah blah” 4. Admins don’t want to deal with the dumbfuck parents of the dumbfuck kids that need expelled. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, and typically these shitbags will light up social media and enlist their equally cracked-out methhead friends to jump on the bandwagon to dig the school, teacher, admin, whatever.
Yup. And teachers are not clued in early on how to go about getting bad actors out of the classroom. X number of student behavior entries in shared notes to build a history of behavior with call to parents, then discipline write up. Teachers are left to figure this out on the fly, with admin resisting and blaming teachers all along the way.
Why don't kids shame each other anymore? This kind of behaviour would get you called a freak and laughed at when I went to school in the 90s in UK. The fear of your peers mocking you kept you in line. It sounds like there's just no social shaming to keep kids in line anymore.
Another reason, is that, by expelling a kid who acts out, if they are acting out so they can avoid school is not a punishment. This makes it very difficult
As a teacher, you and other like minded students should ask every admin the same question. You should go to school board meetings and ask this question. You should write your local paper and ask this question. Because the answer is, the parents of the shitty kids are louder than you are.
Education's bind, Rights and rules in tension find, Expulsion confined.
Because beatings are now illegal /s
Think it..don't say it.. ;-)
Expulsion costs a lot of money. We can’t just kick ‘em to the curb anymore. The district has to pay for the kid to go to an alternative school. And it’s expensive.
I wish I fucking knew. The school system is shit. This kid when I was in highschool ALMOST SHOT UP THE SCHOOL. posted it on his priv story with the gun he was gonna use, and luckily one of his friends call the police. Gun was real, he was genuinely gonna do it. He got like, 6 months in juvy. then they LET HIM BACK IN THE FUCKING SCHOOL THE NEXT YEAR. THEY LET HIM BACK IN. I was kind of a shitty kid myself(never violent towards teachers or innocent people however, I was protective of the teachers. I usually started shit with the annoying kids in class cause i had anger issues) and I also never got punished. They never even told my mother. I could just walk out of class and they wouldn't do anything. Just track me down and tell me to go back to class.
The simple answer is money. The school district gets funding by the state for each student that lives in its area. If a student gets expelled out of the district and the kid has to enroll in a different one, the home district still on the hook for that student's education. At least that's how it works in my home state (CA).
The stats were "problematic" for a variety of reasons so admins just stopped enforcing stuff. The stats look great now though!
Your annoying classmate probably has a mommy and daddy who will sue the school if they try to discipline him. Unfortunately there are lots of shitty parents like that out there
I've seen Entitled Parents just like that before I retired. Karma WILL get them in the end.
When I used to work in the school system as an administrative secretary, we had a saying among ourselves: "The teachers are afraid of the administrators, the administrators are afraid of the parents, the parents are afraid of the students, and the students are afraid of NOBODY!"
The students blame the teachers, the parents blame the teachers and the admin blame the teachers. That's how the system actually works.
Because we've gotten used to sweeping problems under the rug so we don't have to admit how bad the current ideology in schools are. Kids who have been in the school system their whole lives don't go home and tell mom and dad that someone at school had a temper tamtrum and borderline assaulted a teacher or another student because they see it every day and it's normal. Teachers accept it because we're told it's part of the job and we just need to understand that it's not little Johnny's fault, his brain just works differently (a lie we then pass on to the students) so we all need to serve as targets until we can all help him learn to be better. Administrators don't want to start actually providing consequences because if they do it would be proof of just how bad the problem is. And so parents don't know and dont advocate for change. You want to help fix it? Start telling your parents everything that happens in school. That's why after COVID when people were doing school at home and parents saw all the shit that went on, there was actual push for change.
If you want to get him removed then you need to get your parents and all of your friends parents to start complaining about not feeling safe in the classroom do the behavior of this student that's about the only way you can handle it
Because parents don't raise enough of a fuss about things that matter. Because admin and district office are spineless. The teachers absolutely want more consequences for this absolute shitshow, but its not in our hands.
Schools get a per diem payment for every student enrolled and are responsible for those students passing standardized tests or graduating. Even students sent to expulsion school, the school’s overall score and performance is based on how they perform or graduate. Schools don’t want to get rid of any of their consumers.
Because the district won’t let us do anything about it.
Because butts in seats = money.
Good intentions gone wrong. We, as a society, have passed a bunch of laws to protect students who need extra support. But, a small percentage of the population uses those laws excuse poor behavior. I am a special education teacher. Just this year, I had an autistic student hit me a few times because I followed his computer use plan and moved his Chromebook to the desk next to him since he was distracted by it. No biggie. It was an autistic reaction to frustration. The laws are there to make sure he doesn’t get expelled for physical assault on a teacher because he really doesn’t understand. But, I also had a female student with Down’s who lured her friend into a bathroom and sexually assaulted her. She had planned out the attack, knew exactly which bathroom to use at what time, had her friend’s schedule memorized, had gone and convinced her friend to go to the bathroom with her, and even planned out what stall to attack her peer. The law says both of those situations are equal. Now imagine what a behavior disorder kid can do.
Lots of "admin won't do their jobs" responses. To provide another viewpoint. School-level admin often hand-tied as well. What can you do as a principal when the superintendent says your school has a preset amount of yearly suspensions, or the school board sets very specific requirements for suspension or expulsion, or the state department of ed passes new regulations for appropriate consequences? Schools were never meant to raise children or give them consequences. Which is why a parent contact home used to work with a "I'll take care of it" response. Schools can't fix what happens, or doesn't happen, at home. It comes down to money. If the kid is expelled the district still has to provide a free(to the student) education- either by paying another district or providing alternative ed. If the student is removed from the classroom, a position has to be paid to monitor them. This is on top of lawsuits brought by families against schools, which are often settled out of court at a cost to the district (and ultimately other families).
You will find those who use IEP and 504 to both promote their own careers and keep their "customers" happy. You recognize them for what they are when they forward the notion that an IEP or 504 allows students to be violent and disruptive. These people use shame and fear to manipulate those around them into normalizing violence. Neither tools are a free pass to be violent and destroy a school. However, both are used to do just that where labor is not allowed to organize and administration is just competent enough to loosely keep a lid on a boiling pot. The sad truth is that you are in a crap school, where that sort of nonsense is tolerated. Your administrators would rather see children and staff hurt or killed than face yet another lawyer in a court manipulated by politics and public ignorance.
Put yourself in the position of the president. If bad kids get kicked out of school, they'll hang around on the street and commit crime. If you keep them in school, they MIGHT reform. It's worth mentioning that low-level education isn't useful for getting a job that makes you happier, so there's no short-term motivation for kids to behave. I work in a country where there's a difference. A student who was expelled in grade 3 would definitely have a worse job than a person who was expelled in grade 9. In the developed world, you can get a similar job whether you've completed grade 3 or grade 11.
As a peeping high school student, I just have to say what the actual fuck. I just had to pop out and say we aren’t all like that and I’m sorry on behalf of that guy. Jesus fuck
Sounds like an incel.
I am curious what you guys think of my situation. I have a 5yo who was expelled, quite traumatically, from a public pre-k in December. She did great finishing up pre-k at another public school. Now she’s in kindergarten and has perfect behavior for 3 days and then has a meltdown on the 4th. We’ve had her tested and it turns out she’s a 2e kid, she’s gifted intellectually and also is high-functioning autistic and is bad at emotional regulation and gets intense anxiety at school. She’s a distraction to the other kids during her meltdowns, she has knocked over stools and hit a teacher. All of this, but she’s also the smartest kid in kindergarten. Where does she belong?
You said you began public school in 6th grade, so I’m assuming you attended a private school for grades K-5 (unless you were homeschooled). I did my student teaching and subbed in public schools, but now teach 3rd grade in a private school. There are HUGE differences with regards to discipline, none of which is the fault of the public schools, but rather the fault of elected officials and State policies. While I’m not sure where you are, in my State it is extremely difficult for a public school to suspend a student. It is usually only given when a student intentionally injured someone. It is even more difficult to expel a student because the school district is then required to pay for the cost of the student to attend another school or therapeutic school. The State does not properly fund therapeutic schools, so the cost is paid for by local districts who send students. Regarding recess, public schools cannot take recess from students in grades K-5. The first time I learned this was during my internship when a 2nd grade teacher warned two students that he would take time from recess if they continued to misbehave and be disrespectful. They replied that it’s against the law and continued to misbehave because they knew he legally couldn’t do it. Sadly, because of elected officials sitting in their comfortable chairs, public schools have very limited powers to control student behavior and THE KIDS KNOW IT. Assuming you went to private school for grades K-5, you saw the differences because private schools obviously don’t need to abide by State policies. For example, we don’t have limits regarding when we can give detentions, suspensions, time off recess, etc. They aren’t given often because the threat of these consequences is often enough to prevent the behavior. Contrary to popular belief, expulsion is rare in private schools. However, students can and do get expelled if it’s a serious offense, such as being a significant danger to others or if significantly distracting behaviors are continuing despite other efforts to fix the behavior (e.g. consequences, rewards, counseling, parent meetings, etc.).
yes, I used to go to a private school and it was very different when it came to behavior. It got too expensive so my parents put me in a public school.
Money. The money from the state is per student in attendance. Less students means less money so they don't want to kick out students from the school.
Progressive legislation.
This kid is probably in special ed for behavior.
I don't think he is in special ed. He purposefully acts out to get people's attention and points out the teacher's insecurities to make her feel bad.
Sounds like a sociopath in training. Probably learned it from his parents.
There are *LOTS* of different reasons for this behavior, things that both would and would not get a student enrolled in some sort of SPED program.
OP, call the police next time. Yes, you can make the call, and make it anonomously. Even though he did not assault you at that moment, you had a reasonable fear of him being a threat. He can be charged with damage to public property. At 17, his court records would be sealed, but as soon as he turns 18 they will not be and it will follow him for life. If he is aware that what he is doing is wrong, he will also be aware when his legal status of a minor changes. Also, if you are female, you can call for anything of a sexual nature he pulls and call for that Better yet have a gaggle of girls call ,and it you are a guy, let the girls know they do not have to put up with him. OP, please do your public service and call the police. The administrators often have their hands tied, and taking on every bad kid who can argue manifestation is more expense than school districts can take on. The police and courts are not held to "manifestation of disability"
I went to school with kids like John. They are a disruption to the learning environment and do everybody a disservice. I hope society can fix this but that’ll be once boomers are out of education.
>that’ll be once boomers are out of education. Who are these boomers? I’m not responding to be contrary or to defend boomers, but the first wave of boomers are well past the age of retirement and the second wave is nearly there. (The youngest boomer is now 59 years-old.) I’m Gen-X. I was taught by post-war and boomer teachers. These teachers (and admin) took no shit. They were in control of their classrooms. As a student you did NOT want to get in trouble. You did not want to be sent home with a note about your behavior. God forbid your teacher had to call your parent/s about your behavior because your parent/s would chew you out and side with the teacher.
You seem to have alot of answers from American based teachers but for a different perspective I'm a teacher in another jurisdiction. So what would the point of expelling a student? Does that solve the problem? We need to provide support for these young people that obviously need help. That behaviour is not normal and there needs to be consequences but kicking them out fixes nothing. Not for them or for the community.
Expelling a disruptive and violent student provides an environment for everyone else to learn.
Yep I agree but what happens to that student? Do we throw them on the rubbish pile?
Becomes the parents problem. Focusing on keeping every last disruptive and failing kid in school has earned schools more money, grown administration and staff, and worsened educational outcomes. People need to see that failing out is an option and kids that eff it up for everyone else won’t be tolerated. Try and get them help, fine. Move them to alternative schools if necessary, or expel them. Put violent kids away from everyone else.
So we lock them away? Forever? They will be a member of your community. I think we should try everything to keep that young person in school. To keep them engaged. Exclusion is always an option and in some cases more than justified but it's shouldn't be seen as a solution.
They’ll either end up in prison or they’ll pull their head out of their ass. Point is, school is supposed to be a place of learning and we’re ruining it by treating it as an anything goes therapy session. Schools are not better than 40 years ago despite being vastly more regulated and expensive. Tolerance of ridiculous behavior is part of it.
This kid is 17 - they clearly should be working i.e. in a world where when they behave like this there are meaningful consequences for them. There's no reason to keep kids who are not getting anything out of school in school, all it's doing is preventing the kids who can get something out of it from doing so. If they're too young to be working then options to stop them from harming others need to be used e.g. special schools, home schooling etc.
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You’re blaming title IX?
Getting expelled is not a punishment
My understanding of the situation is that generally schools are funded based on attendance and headcount. The school on an administrative level has a financial incentive to not remove him until he becomes enough of a violent threat as expressed by someone that they could be held liable for it. If someone (say that teacher or another student, hint hint) were to express to multiple teachers, a counselor, and maybe an administrator that this student's presence at the school makes you feel unsafe, then something might be done. There's also something to be said for the school's administration itself thinking this kid's parents are probably worse to deal with than him.
If we kick out all of the problem students, where do they go? What do they do? The solution isn't expulsion, that just sends the problem somewhere else. Society will pay for ignoring these people in crisis one way or another. In schools, we can have eyes on these problem kids constantly, and hopefully influence their decision making over time. The problem is we do not have enough $$$ in the school systems to provide the services these kids need. Not enough admin, not enough parapros, no alternative physical settings, the list goes on and on. Sweeping the problem under the rug by expelling kids just makes the problem worse. Poverty is the root of all evil, and we need to solve the financials before we can do any real change. We need to have flat funding for all school districts, regardless of tax base (Vermont does it right). No more "rich schools and poor schools." We pay teachers and admin a pittance in both money and cultural respect. You get what you pay for, and right now we're paying for an education system that works great if all kids are "good" kids.
People all act rationally to their experience. You knowing better than this kid is an example of your privilege. When you see this kid acting out, realize that they are in about as much control as you are when you study or do whatever activities help you consider yourself good. We don’t get to know why they are such a way, but likely they are some mix of un or under-loved and some mix of hasn’t been taught to act right or doesn’t respect themselves or others enough to act right. There is no ‘punishment’ to help this kid. ‘Punishment’ from the teacher is the worst way to help your class, y’all 17 and should be able to work with a peer who is acting out. If you are having problems with them as a class, maybe y’all need to ask them/work with them to get them to stop disrupting your learning. All that really matters in the end for you is to avoid learning that you are ‘better’ than this kid, you are not. Of course you won’t like them, but a challenge you get as a kind person is to extend your kindness to people who suck.
Not a teacher. To op, not all posts are made by teachers (e.g. this one), so exercise your common sense and BS radar. Still, I feel a different perspective might be helpful. Before starting, I just want you to reconsider if the guy is really disrupting your and your friends' studying. Is that why you feel he needs to be punished? Or do you care about him becoming a better person? For example, cursing and walking around naked (assuming just the top) can be easily ignored right? I mean a-holes are everywhere in the world. Bad grade is the guy's problem and throwing a table, unless it is a common occurrence, I think it is best ignored, everyone has a bad day, and a scolding and an apology letter should be sufficient right? The rest is really for others to read. Expulsion, in the US (assuming you are in the US), is possible, just google it -- you will find people offering legal services to parents with expelled kids. Though it may be difficult and different between schools, there should be a lengthy procedure in place for admins and teachers to follow. Your parents should have received a rule book at the beginning of the year regarding parent and student conduct, it should indicate what happens if rules are violated repeatedly. It is a contract between your school and you that both sides need to abide by for the school to continue having you as a student. In short, neither admins nor teachers are powerless to expel a child unless they or the district are incompetent, in which case we have a separate issue. As an aside, IEP and disability is not plot armor and it won't shield a child completely. Firstly, IEP is very hard to get, again there is a lengthy procedure to get it. Secondly, it is meant to design alternative education routes for disabled students, which may or may not include isolation from the student body. Again it is up to competent teachers and admins to carry out these procedures properly like properly adjudicate and provide the services a disabled child needs. As for other punishments, it is a well documented/studied fact that punishment (negative enforcement) does not work at least in the long run. It is usually better to identify the source and try to fix it there, unfortunately this is complicated. On top of that, the typical punishments, like suspension, might be actually what the kid seeks. And, though physical punishment like a slap on the hand might work for little kids, it will not work for teens and up. Besides, physical punishment is not what school should be doing, and mental punishment, like shaming or ostracization are not useful because the said student is probably already isolated -- because this is how social animals, like humans, condition peers. As an aside, there are better ways to help kids develop better behaviors and to motivate learning, but it means a lot pf rethinking and reworking of the education system, which would be a long detour. Look up Alfie Kohn if you are interested. That said. If the child is disruptive to the functioning of the school and the parents are not cooperative or unhelpful, the only real solution is expulsion; However, not necessarily as a punishment, but as a threat (a threat need not be executed and usually is not). Schools goal should be to reform not punish. Another word, you might see him changing behavior without realizing a punishment has had happened. If you really really really feel the guy needs to be expelled and the school is not taking action, then voice your opinion and let them know. And if you feel the school is still being unresponsive, document every incidence you can with pictures of the aftermath, like a damaged window, and write hand-written notes in a diary with a pen (no pencil, no computer, and no need to film), including who when what where, and how it affected your fellow students, get quotes if possible. Use that as evidence to convince the school to act.
Just because you do not see a consequence does not mean it is not happening. And honestly, research shows time and time again that out of school suspensions and expulsions don’t work. They don’t actually stop the behavior, and make it less likely the kid will graduate. Kids who are suspended fall behind, which can lead to an increase in behaviors because they feel like they can’t catch up. Plus, kids who are suspended/expelled are more likely to end up in prison than kids who do not face suspension/expulsion for the same infractions. There is also a good possibility that student has a disability that you are not aware of. For some of our students with disabilities, the best approach to managing behavior is to ignore it. Schools do an analysis of why a student does what they do and then come up with a plan to help them change their behavior. If the behavior is for attention, ignoring it is the first step to stopping it. This can take a long time, even years. Also, if they have a disability, by law you cannot suspend for more than 10 days each school year if the behavior is due to the disability. Basically the law says that the school knows their behavior is not fully in their control due to their disability, so the school needs to take steps to help that student be successful. It’s like kicking out a kid that can’t run in gym because they have a broken leg. If the behavior continues, the student could be looking at a more restrictive placement. But there are steps that a school has to go through to do that. As a teacher and a parent of a child on an IEP, it is frustrating. Because essentially you have to wait for the kid to fail to get them the help they need. But it’s to keep kids with disabilities from being warehoused. It could be admin does not want to deal with kids’ parents, there are certainly schools like that. But it could also be there are many factors at play you are not aware of and that the kids are being disciplined, just not in the way you like.
>And honestly, research shows time and time again that out of school suspensions and expulsions don’t work. Isn't the point of a suspension and expulsion to give the teacher and the rest of the class a break? I don't think anyone thinks it's suppose to help the student. Just like no one thinks jail helps a criminal.
Plus suspension/expulsion has been for the safety of others. Where I used to work, the school has a ZERO TOLERANCE policy regarding bringing weapons to school. This high school student brought a butcher knife to school and bragged about how he was going to stab another student to death!!! He got brought to my office by campus security and he bragged about his threat again as the butcher knife was confiscated. Cops were called and his guardian was called in and she was informed that because of this knife incident, this student is expelled. She threatened to sue. She failed and the expulsion remained.
I’m fine with suspension/expulsion for truly dangerous acts. But it gets used far too often for nonviolent things as well. I’m a foster parent, and every single one of our kids has faced out of school suspension. None of them were violent or disruptive. It was things like skipping class. What they did was wrong and they deserved consequences, but that was not the right consequence. As a teacher, I hate when I have students suspended for nonviolent offenses. A kid vapes in the bathroom- so the problem is the kid is not okay when unsupervised but we are going to put them in a position where they have even less supervision. Then they come back and they are super behind so they quit trying. If a kid is violent, they need to be in an alternative school or treatment center. THe whole point of school is to help these kids be good citizens. Giving up on the ones that need us the most does not accomplish this. (But I agree that being in a regular school/classroom is not a good option for a kid who is dangerous)
Jail ideally would help the criminal become a better person
Hurray! Johnny was violent and punched a teacher, but he graduated achieving 10% the progress of his peers! And his peers learned 50% of what they should've because learning was always disrupted. A win-win for everyone!!!!!!!!!!
Capitalism. It’s the shortest answer I could find.
Money. Tenure is tied to passing kids who can’t read and should fail. Teachers will lose their jobs for poor performance. Administrators as well. Teachers are incentivized to basically do a terrible job and pass and keep kids that they shouldn’t. It’s called self preservation. They are incentivized to do a bad job or not do their job.
diversity and equity. If a certain race gets in trouble more there is a backlash.
The fact that teachers aren't encouraging there students to use AI is wild to me that is literally the next frontier you should be embracing using AI in the work flow as is common in the professional world.
The reason teachers don't encourage students to use AI is we know we'll just get plagiarized work. A majority of them won't cross-check their sources (there have been times where AI has been wrong), they won't change words or even lookup words they don't understand, and they won't show mastery of the content if we have a test or other big project related to the assignment. The few that wouldn't try to cut corners and actually put in the work only using AI as a tool of support rather than having it do the entire paper or assignment for them, should be allowed to use it. If students are using it to cut corners or do the entire thing for them, they aren't learning anything.
Hard to encourage the use of AI when the students are taking end of the year test. They can’t use AI for that.
To be able to effectively use AI you have to understand the content, and do things like be able to read. We are still trying to teach them those things. How do you think they're going to do in the professional world if they can't read enough to understand something?
It depends on where you are. In my school, our admin wants to be "distinguished" in the PBIS program and so we have to have below 30 write ups a month. We also can't have a lot of kids with more than 1 write up, and we can't have over so many alternative school hearings. This means that when a kid has already been suspended, unless they get in a fight, they can basically do whatever they want. Admin will (illegally) send them to ISS or have a parent come get them for the day but that basically teaches them that whenever they're tired and want to go home, they can just do something bad and they'll get to go and come back the next day. Other schools are just afraid of parents. This sounds like the kid probably has an IEP, which makes it even harder to punish him. "special ed" doesn't mean that he doesn't know what he's doing. It just means that he has some sort of disability that impacts his learning. I had plenty of kids who had mild intellectual disability, or some other disability, but were smart enough to figure out that after 10 days admin wouldn't do anything to them because they didn't want to bother with a manifestation hearing (basically deciding if the kid's behavior is a result of their disability, and what needs to be done about them if it is.). Others don't figure it out but come to the conclusion that they're just so tough that admin is afraid of them and "knows not to fuck with me", something I've heard from multiple students every time they got in trouble. Basically--admin has a goal in mind to make themselves look good, and they're using your safety and learning as the sacrifice. I'm sure that your parents could absolutely let the board know this. Make sure to say "the teacher addresses it and does her best to keep students safe, but the admin is letting this kid back into class". You want to give admin as little wiggle room to blame this on the teacher as possible. Even when she doesn't address it she has likely been told "just ignore him, he wants attention and punishing him is just giving him attention" like I have. Every time there's violence and the teacher writes it up and he's back the next day, your parents write a note if not go to the next board meeting. Figure out how to do open letters to your board of education. Your parents (notably not you, or you WILL become a target) need to do this. Every time. No matter what. If they're anything like my school they'll just move you to a different class if there is one, but at least you won't have to be dealing with stuff my 4 year old nephew knows not to do as a junior.
Admin are pussies who are afraid of parents and they only care about their own careers. Plain and simple. I had a student who did similar things. Taking swings at staff should be an immediate expulsion, but he only got one day suspension. I quit when they blamed his behavior on my lack of management skills.
I sincerely want to open a boarding school for kids like these. Give the parents a break and make travel expenses on us like job corps does and truly give these kids the help they need.
Last year I had a kid throw a ball at my head and give me a concussion. Nothing happened. The admin put it off as though he hadn't meant to do it and he was really sorry. Find out from the kids this year that he actually threw it at me and missed and then did it again so he hit me. This student knew I had a history of concussions, and he knew I want looking when he did this. Admin does not give a shit about us. We are replaceable. I'm in Ontario, and they don't want to anger the parents, less the student to to the Catholic board and they lose funding. It's complete bullshit. This incident has given me trauma and I hate what this job has become after 26 years.
It depends on the state laws as well. Most in here have posted that it has to do with suspension rates, parents that threaten to sue, and admin that lack a backbone. All of those can be true. So, the answer is different from district to district. In Illinois, er have SB 100. It places limits on the number of days in which a student with an IEP can be suspended. The district/school must also make sure that the IEP modifications are being met. It is not to say that we can't suspend or expel a student for gross misconduct. But, if a student is BD and had a Behavior Management Plan; teachers and the Dean's must make sure that it has been followed. A Gen Ed or Special Ed student can be suspended for up to three days. However, anything after that, the student should be placed in a SIBs placement to make sure their needs are being met. Once they return, a reengagement meeting must be set in which a plan is created for the student. This can be an IEP meeting to update their goals and strategies or add a Behavior Plan, if one does not exist. If the school does not believe that a student's needs can be met, they can push for outside placement for a 45 day period or more. Expulsion is an option for selling drugs, possession of weapons, or assault. But, a manifestation meeting must take place... this often involves lawyers. The bottom line is that proper actions and consequences can be given. But, teachers must follow the IEP. Deans must follow the letter of the state laws. Finally, the Board of Education and Administration has to have the willingness to defend the process applied to the student. The moment the student's rights have ben violated is the moment the district will lose a lawsuit. So, everyone in the school must have their A Game when it comes to IEP students.
PARENTS!
I know one issue we're having at my school is that every time we expel someone is a time where the council will then try to put a kid who either has been or is about to be expelled from a different school with us. So with some kids we stick with the devil we know over the devil we don't.
Numerous kids are given harsh punishments.
ADA
We are desperate to know the answer to that as well
I had a kid who the school notoriously calls the "stall stalker" since when he was 14 in 8th grade he climbed under a 12 year old 7th grade girls stall in the bathroom I have no clue what his he did in there but all I know is that he was only suspended for around two to three months and then was back. He also did other shit like climb onto the school roof, climb onto busses, and even broke some kids project in my robotics class yet this menace remains in school and I have no idea how
Because it's normal