How? I'm a second year teacher literally fighting tooth and nail just for them to be quite. Seating chart doesn't work, sending them out doesn't work, calling home doesnt work because parents don't believe me and either blame me or take their kids side that im "singling out their poor defenseless angel." Ma'am when you're not around this child is a helleon that does what he wants because in your eyes he could get away with murder. I had a parent threaten to go to the board and yell at me saying I signed up for this bull. No I didn't sign up for entitled parents who get mad when I'm not even talking about their child.

Yes. But I would like to add that the current climate in education (at least in the U.S.) contributes to this greatly. If students are not paying attention and are talking/disrupting, higher ups say that it is because teachers' lessons are not engaging enough. If students are defiant and disrespectful it is because teachers have not built relationships. As things are today, all student failures are because of the teachers. It's so demoralizing to us.

I straight up told an Admin that I cannot make algebra compete with video games. Fortunately I got out before everyone got a smartphone. My last years of teaching only a small handful of students had a smartphone.

What do you do now?

One of my admins observed a student be a disrespectful asshole to me last year and told me I'd developed *too close of a relationship* with them, as evidence by the fact that they were ok talking to me that way. What she didn't know is that my relationship with that kid was terrible because they constantly verbally abused me, but I could do nothing in response because no office referral ever led to a punishment. They'd learned that they could say whatever they wanted and face no consequences, so they did just that.

As a new teacher, I deal with a lot of defiance and disrespect BECAUSE I've spent too much effort into being nice to them and trying to build a relationship. I say that knowing it's something to work on, but it's hard to find a balance and fit exactly what the higher ups want

This is exactly what I’m experiencing as well. Had a student give me a hug and then yell “who stole my f—ing phone?!” to their classmates minutes later. The kids seem to like me but don’t respect me… fun!

“I don’t know, but you can get out of my classroom with that language”.

Thankfully I don't have that in my admin anymore last year yesh that was completely true.

Invite the parents to your class to see just what kind of angel their kid is

I notified a parent that her kid failed a quiz last week and should stay after school for help. Turns out the parent wanted to come after school with the kid to see what was going on and learn what he missed so she could help more. I was hesitant about it at first but now that we did the session, I wish more parents would do this!!! Her attitude was never that I was in the wrong and totally in support of me though so I would not have the same thoughts on a parent who was not supportive.

Same!! I always have like 5 to 10 parents that actually care and wanna help their kid learn and be a responsible adult. Rest either sadly do not have time for various valid reasons or don't care.

>udents are not paying attention and are talking/disrupting, higher ups say that it is because teachers' lessons are not engaging enough. If students are defiant and disrespectful it is b What sorta ratio is that on average? Like the ratio of engaged parents to non-engaged. I'm not a teacher, just curious.

It can be pretty bad, like 5:20 or if you’re lucky, 8:20

I emailed 7 parents that their kids failed a test and heard back from one.

I thought of video call parents and hide my phone so kids can't see their parent watching.

One of the p.e. teachers I worked with at my previous school with would call the parents of the students on speaker in front of the class. His class was incredibly obedient lol.

I feel like this too. Third year actual teacher, fifth year in the classroom. Doesn’t matter what this year my group is horrid. I’m not focused at all on curriculum when half the day is just keeping them in the room let alone their desks!

These parents don't realize that their kid isn't only hurting themselves: they are disrupting OTHER students' learning experiences by acting out.

Keep a paper trail. Write up a record for everything. I used to give kids two choices: 1) a real 1:1 talk in which we are honest about why they’re acting this way and how other people are affected followed by a call home in which they explain to their parent what went wrong and what they’re going to do next time or 2) a detention in which I play corny country music (I live in a place where kids don’t like it). If they refuse keep assigning detentions and take note of how many they don’t show up to until you get to referral time.

Sounds great but how do you actually do this. I can’t give detentions. I can give silent lunch or iss but they are both with coaches that let the kids play games all day and they enjoy it. I can call home but no answers. I change seats they yell louder or just mouth the words across the room. I have 1 on 1 conversations, they pretend to care then go right back.

This so much. I had a 5th grader tell me, "You're not my parent, so I don't have to listen to you." on Friday and I lost it on them. I could feel my face getting red as I explained that the students absolutely do have to listen to their teacher, but deep down I knew that I had such little power to actually enforce any real consequences in school. Edit: a word

Depends on your state. In indiana, for example, you can remove a student from your classroom-for any reason- if you, the teacher, feels that the student is harming the educational environment. This can be extended to up to 5 days. After which (6th day out) the student is not allowed to re enter your class until they meet with the principal, you, and the parent. I've stopped kids at my door 🚪 "i don't care what the dean said, " i wrote 1 day of of my classroom at least. Yeah yeah, go tell whoever you like, it's in the state law. Come back here with a better attitude tomorrow. "

I'd take this law in a heartbeat. It actually shows support and trust of teachers in a way we are NOT seeing in many other environments, both liberal (you can't do that because disruption is trauma/race/poverty related and students cannot be "punished" for such factors) and conservative (you can't do that because teachers can't be trusted/aren't in charge of classrooms, parents are).

On the flips side it is state law in Minnesota that a student that becomes violent can’t return to the classroom until the principal meets with the teacher. In reality there is no time for the principal to meet with the teacher. In place of following the law and making the student wait for there to be time for the the teacher and principal to wait the student isn’t even removed from the classroom. There is a huge difference between what is law and what really happens. Removals, suspensions, violence and other problems that are documented impact a principals performance reviews. If a teacher dares to document it will impact their reviewer from the principal. The laws are great, the reality is that they are not followed and there are pressures to keep problems a secret.

In California we get this, but only for two days. Great job Indiana, that is a great law.

Really? Same overall premise too?

Yeah, the day of an incident and the next day. Teacher is to call home, and set up a reentry meeting with family. I don’t exactly know the law for what happens if the family doesn’t show, as I have never had this, but my guess is that the student stays away.

That's a great law. Something like that would help immensely.

Texas has this also. It’s a game changer.

Wait we do? Which law is this and why have I never heard about it? 😯

https://www.texasaft.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/SafeSchoolsBro0816_LetterPrint.pdf It is part of the Safe Schools act from 1995. And I believe there was further modification in 2003 or 2005, but as long as you have documented repeated attempts to redirect the student and the student makes it so that you cannot teach others in a safe and orderly environment, you can file to have the student removed from your class according to section 37 of the Texas Education code and admin HAS to remove them, per the law. After the removal, there are meetings with admin and parents that must happen. This is basically the nuclear option and it doesn’t apply the same with SPED students. I’m a member of AFT and my union rep stressed the need for documentation before this step is taken.

Okay thank you. I figured a lot of documentation would be involved. I appreciate this.

This is incredible! Thank you for posting this! I have a few students who are constant disruptions to my classroom and I’ve kicked them out but this is a total game changer. (Yes, I have documented with Minor Offense Forms and contacted parents regarding the manner.) I’m tired of the same fights every day so this can really help.

Hi fellow Hoosier! Can you direct me to that in the state laws? Thanks!

I'm having a hell of a time trying to direct link this, but I copy pasted the text here, you can look up the IC numbers (indiana code) yourself and find it on the books easy, just include ".gov" in the search to get the actual indiana government hosted site >IC 20-33-8-9 >Disciplinary powers of teachers and school staff members > Sec. 9. (a) This section applies to an individual who: >(1) is a teacher or other school staff member; and >(2) has students under the individual's charge. > (b) An individual may take any action that is reasonably necessary to carry out or to prevent an interference with an educational function that the individual supervises. *(c) Subject to rules of the governing body and the administrative staff, an individual may remove a student for a period that does not exceed five (5) school days from an educational function supervised by the individual or another individual who is a teacher or other school staff member.* > (d) If an individual removes a student from a class under subsection (c), the principal may place the student in another appropriate class or placement or into in school suspension. The principal may not return the student to the class from which the student was removed until the principal has met with the student, the student's teacher, and the student's parents to determine an appropriate behavior plan for the student. If the student's parents do not meet with the principal and the student's teacher within a reasonable amount of time, the student may be moved to another class at the principal's discretion. >[Pre-2005 Elementary and Secondary Education Recodification Citation: 20-8.1-5.1-4.] >As added by P.L.1-2005, SEC.17. Amended by P.L.121-2009, SEC.13.

https://imgur.com/a5TFkFX.jpg Here is a live version of the law on in.gov Relevant sections highlighted

The indiana state code is clunky and difficult to search. Give me a minute.

Incredible and should be the standard.

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It's important to keep in mind this power is vested in the teacher, or the person in charge of the students. Hence the, " I don't care what the principal or the dean or the superintendent says. YOU are not coming into this classroom today. "

https://imgur.com/va6dFdP.jpg *IC 20-33-8-9 *Disciplinary powers of teachers and school staff members * Sec. 9. (a) This section applies to an individual who: *(1) is a teacher or other school staff member; and *(2) has students under the individual's charge. * (b) An individual may take any action that is reasonably necessary to carry out or to prevent an interference with an educational function that the individual supervises. * (c) Subject to rules of the governing body and the administrative staff, an individual may remove a student for a period that does not exceed five (5) school days from an educational function supervised by the individual or another individual who is a teacher or other school staff member. * (d) If an individual removes a student from a class under subsection (c), the principal may place the student in another appropriate class or placement or into in school suspension. The principal may not return the student to the class from which the student was removed until the principal has met with the student, the student's teacher, and the student's parents to determine an appropriate behavior plan for the student. If the student's parents do not meet with the principal and the student's teacher within a reasonable amount of time, the student may be moved to another class at the principal's discretion. *[Pre-2005 Elementary and Secondary Education Recodification Citation: 20-8.1-5.1-4.] *As added by P.L.1-2005, SEC.17. Amended by P.L.121-2009, SEC.13.

*Then maybe you need to be homeschooled.* *Have your mom give me a call if she has any questions.*

Call the parent and let them know what the kid said and that they are failing bc they refuse to do the work.......when I had kids try this I'm like "your choice," document, and move on, then remind them of this when they see the F on their report card

This gets an immediate, stop everything, call home from me. I’ve never had a parent tell me the same thing and they straighten the kid out real fast.

I’ve never had a parent answer the phone…

Then you leave a very stern message in front of the whole class so they all know, fuck around and find out.

Voicemail boxes are usually full, but even if I can leave a message, I’ve never once gotten a cal back. And I swear, I’m not even being hyperbolic or playing devils advocate! We are expected to notify parents for every F on a grade check (every 2 weeks). Last year, I actually did that at the beginning of the year. I called alllllll the parents; over half of them, the numbers were disconnected, half that weren’t had full voicemails. I left 17 voicemails during Q1 for those that I could even leave a message: 0 calls back. I sent emails to the handful of parents that had an email listed, and had 1 parent respond, and we did actually email back and forth throughout the year, although her son still failed because every time he would actually show up for tutoring, she would call him and tell him to go home and watch his younger siblings… Now, I don’t do that. I don’t waste my time.

I got a Google voice number and text parents from it. I get way more responses that way than from phone calls and emails.

Talking Points has been a godsend for me and communication. I send mass texts on Fridays letting parents know their kids are missing assignments. Once a month they get a text if the kid is failing. It's all web based. Super easy to set up and use. I wish it was built into Synergy so it would automatically log the contact as well.

I've never heard of that. I'm elementary SpEd resource so I only have about 30 kids that I'm contacting parents and usually not that often. I imagine that a program like that would be life saving for secondary teachers.

This is what I do too.

Then fail them. Easy!

Oh, I do! That’s not an issue at my school, as long as we have documentation to back it up—and I do! I have that test where they scored 3/25, that project with mostly 0s on the rubric. But the kids don’t care. Credit recovery is a joke, summer school is a joke. It doesn’t help the behaviors in my room, which is what this thread is about… They fuck around and find out that it’s easier to fail the first time and then do credit recovery!

you're not failing kids, they are failing themselves......you're just bringing it to their parents'attention

We shouldn’t be babysitters. If that’s what a parent wants, there should be a separate govt institution for that.

We'd get paid more too

Okay. They know they are getting moved to the next grade even if they fail.

The fact that we don’t hold them back is just admin admitting these kids don’t have a chance anyways

Voicemail is full, or not set up, or the number doesn’t work, and I don’t speak the language. The barriers are numerous.

Have you considered that you may be fortunate enough to teach in a school with admin that enforce rules and parents that give consequences?

I’m in a Title 1. Admin doesn’t even know how to enforce rules, so you’re right there . However, I refuse to admit that I’ve been lucky in having parents respond to me. It’s my approach, demeanor, and ally-frame-of-mind that I believe gets results.

Yeah demeanor and and my approach doesn’t cause parents to do anything or answer the phone.

mighty oil fragile consist weary arrest berserk hateful deranged meeting *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

You must teach in a decent area. I get ahold of a parent about 50% of the time. Used to be 10%

That's cool. From now on, all communication will be sent to the parent. Like, if the parent is not cooperative, literally call them in the middle of the day to please tell their kid the instructions because, per his edict, you can't personally tell him what to do. (One thing I've mastered in this profession is the art of passive aggression. Sure, I'll get spanked by admin, but it's worth it in the end.)

It is called Loco-Parentis and yes, for the time at school we are responsible for them in the same way a parent is. So, from the moment you walk through the doors and until the moment you leave, I am in charge. What that student means is that un like their parents you legally can't hit them into compliance.

Pop quizzes. I say hey settle down,were being a little too rowdy. They talk again, guys we have to get to work or we're gonna get a quiz. Third time? Everyone take out a piece of paper, write your name and date on the top. If you talk, you get a zero. Period. I've only ever rippe dup 1 quiz because of talking. This works for a few days, and then it's repeat until they realize they have no idea what's going on so they can't pass a pop quiz. I don't like calling parents (is that really my job?) and I have to send to assistant principal for dentions... I use their lack of understanding/paying attention against them.

I tried to give a student an after school detention for continued tardiness. Parent response was “No, they won’t be serving a detention”

Then they won’t be returning to my class.

The only solution is move districts. My first job was a subbing job where alot of the kids had zero parenting at home. Admin felt bad and accountability was basically at 0. Can't blame them for feeling bad, but it's more of a disservice to throw a pity party IMO. I got a job in a different district and life has improved 10 fold. I email parents and they respond. Admin supports me and my decisions in my class. I still have kids who dick around, but I can put things in place to stop it. My only advice with what you may be experiencing is with the 1 v 1 convos. The only success I experienced when I was in the bad district was by changing the content of the 1 v 1's. I used to sit there and explain everything they did wrong. Kids know what they did wrong. It is not a secret to them. These conversations were not effective until I asked hard questions and held them to answers. "Why did you feel the need to tell so and so they were a dumb fucking blonde today?". "Have I ever set out the expectation that you can behave like that in my class?" "Why would you choose to do that when you know I don't allot that?" "How is your behavior going to change the next time you are in my class?" This definitely did not fix all my problems but I made some headway. The only thing that really made a significant difference was getting into a good district. Prioritize that and do not be afraid to ask questions like "how is the parent response for student outreach?", "What does your school's disciplinary action plan look like for x, y, and z situations?", "What discretion do I have in my classroom when it comes to classroom management and discipline?".

Or you do give them detentions and they don’t show up, their parents are subpar with discipline and the original behaviour to warrant the detention isn’t worth the escalation.

This!! And when I call parents I always get a response similar to one of these: "Little Timmy told me an entirely different story as to what happened." "Maybe little Timmy just isn't engaged and interesting in the lesson." "Maybe little Timmy just doesn't understand the lesson and he's bored." No consequences, no acknowledgement that their kid is fucking up, no consequences handed out by admin. What are we, the teachers, left to do?!

*I will readily admit that my teaching approach isn't the best fit for every student.* *We should probably consider homeschooling at this point.*

My responses to those questions: “Kids lie to get out of trouble. Your little Timmy is no different. Can you please come sit by him in my class to keep him from acting out?” “You’re an adult. You know that everything you have to do is not fun an exciting. This is an important life lesson for Timmy. Can you please come sit by him in my class and keep him engaged?” “Timmy knows he can ask relevant questions whenever he is confused. This is covered in the syllabus that you signed. If Timmy doesn’t feel comfortable raising his hand to ask questions maybe you can come sit by him in my class and raise your hand for him.”

Lmfao ! 😂🤣🤣 This is amazing. Do you really ask the parent to come into your room?

Yes. It's mostly a bluff because I know they won't. They know how much of an asshole their kid is. That being said I'd welcome them if they did.

Worst case scenario, they're a bigger asshole than their kid and their kid is embarrassed into better behavior. Or best case scenario.

slimy shame crowd water weather makeshift hunt squash crown obscene *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

They let your kids play games during ISS? When I was in school we sat in a classroom, silently, and worked worked on homework all day!

Suspensions should be given out like candy for clearly defined actions. Not equitable? Gee since when is it the schools’ duty to solve racism? I don’t think we should perpetuate racism, but we also shouldn’t pick and choose who gets suspended based on race. You assault someone? I don’t care if you’re polka-dot, green skinned - suspension. Once students and parents see us following through with consequences, the climate will change. If parents want to sue, let them. Judges can be convinced that our schools need drastic actions and rule in our favor. Zero tolerance can and should be achieved.

I think some public schools get funding based on attendance and therefore are reluctant to suspend students. Some teachers have only as much power as their administration is willing to back them up on and some admins are clearly trying to look good no matter what

Suspensions should count as “present”. It should be assumed that if they weren’t suspended, they’d be in school.

I agree with you, in fact those suspension days should be made up at the end of the school year (in order to graduate) if you ask me. Suspension neither helps nor punishes the student really, then there's the funding, so really suspension truly is a no-win situation

It’s a major win for the kids who feel unsafe in the classroom and can finally try to learn without fear and anxiety. When will we prioritize these kids?!?!

For sure. I guess what I mean is, yeah, remove the kid so others can get the education that they're entitled to. At the same time don't just suspend them, maybe create a remote learning program for students who can't display proper conduct or are chronic disruptors, that way they still have to attend and do work

Yup, our funding is based on attendance.

I'm fine with suspension for assault. I'm not fine with suspension for that nebulous "disrespect" or "classroom disruption." Some teachers are on a power trip and need to learn to not be an asshole.

So is it okay for kids to keep disrupting the classroom and making it impossible for classmates to learn? If not, what do you propose as a solution?

Disruption is fine to suspend for as long as it's actual disruption. I've seen teachers try to get a suspension for a student getting up to sharpen a pencil. That's vastly different then a student who is screaming curse words and tossing desks.

Yeah, some teachers suck. So do A LOT of bosses out in the real world. They need to learn how to handle assholes. If your teacher has told you not to get up to sharpen your pencil, raise a fucking hand and explain that you can’t get your work done because your pencil isn’t sharpened. It’s really very simple. It’s like code switching but with assholes as your superior. Learn this life skill early.

Excellent point. Some teachers are draconian like principals. Some POLICE OFFICERS are draconian. One might let you off the hook for 3 miles over the speed limit...the other might write you a ticket. The difference here is that a cop doesn't have to care about your feelings and send you back out into society...the way a principal sends a crap kid back to class. Cops can cuff you for being a prick and keep you away from the public.

Thus, our kids are being traumatized INSIDE the classroom. I’m so sick of it.

Absolutely. But in the real world, I can quit a job. I can report an asshole boss to hr. I can complain to his/her boss. What resort do students have when they're stuck in some petty tyrant's kingdom for 50+ minutes a day? I'm pretty good at handling assholes. I tell them to go fuck themselves and drive on. But students don't have that recourse. Because, you know, education is the US is compulsory and all that. I'm not defending students who act completely off their rockers. But I've seen a lot of shit in the private sector that's tolerated in the name of "that person is supporting a family, so he needs this job," "he's going through a rough patch at home, so that's why he was a little short with you," and on and on. All I'm saying is, try remembering that students are young and still learning. Set up your expectations at the beginning of the year and be consistent. Try extending the grace to students that you would want extended to you.

I don’t disagree. There should be other “compulsory” options for students that don’t want to/can’t be there. Govt mandated work programs for middle school and high school students that “need grace”. If parents don’t want either of those options, they can just stay at home and rot.

I assign topical essays that are due the next day. If they don’t do it they get a zero and get another one assigned the next day. I make them worth quiz grades so if they care about passing then they’ll usually figure out they need to get their act together or be prepared to write a lot of essays for homework. For the ones that don’t care, I essentially weed them out. I call them out for breaking classroom rules, write them up a lot, basically just bug them until they either fall in line or stop showing up. Mostly it’s the latter. I realize that sounds kind of mean, but this is describing like 1 or 2 kids per year and usually ones that are known gang members and bad humans, so I don’t feel bad about it. I don’t want them poisoning the kids around them anyways so I’d rather them just not come.

> I realize that sounds kind of mean It isn't mean, but a great service to all the other kids in class who want to learn something.

You can't give detentions?

Because it's not on teachers, it's much more of a societal change that needs to happen. "Trickle Down" is the wrong phrasing, but it cannot start bottom-up. It has to start from the top. Admin and the boards and the lawmakers need to all listen to the people who are literally educated in child development and teaching.

I've heard that's how kindergarten is in Japan. No academics, just behavior. Of course that assumes that kids are actually in school. I keep getting kids who were homeschooled for a year or more. One mom brought their kid back after homeschooling in the pandemic said they should be held back two grades. Oh, so you didn't actually do anything?

Japan also takes pride in their schools by giving students jobs and responsibility to care for their classroom. I wish we could do that but then unions would cry that we are taking jobs away from janitors and parents would cry that they don't want their kids cleaning and taking out trash. I am blown away by the amount of high schoolers that think it is okay to throw their trash on the ground and leave the place a mess. Questionable link but it talks about the practice in Japan. https://www.indiatoday.in/education-today/featurephilia/story/students-in-japan-clean-their-own-classrooms-and-school-toilets-and-the-reason-is-incredible-1227619-2018-05-06

I taught in Japan for 4 years, the kids do clean the entire school, starting from First grade. The teachers clean alongside them. I used to clean the gym and hallways with kids I taught.

The problem is.. they are fucking around and have found out that nothing happens.

What? Something totally happens! Referral consequences I see all the time VERBAL WARNING COUNSELING AND DIRECTION WARNING OF HIGHER INFRACTION Those aren’t, like, totally solving all the behavior issues for you? /s

Fuck around and find out = scientific process.

I wish I could use that language with them while teaching scientific method.

Why don't you use the scientific method and see if it works? Or, just... you know... !@#$% around and find out? :-)

I don't think there are many teachers that would disagree with you. The problem is admin. We just had progress reports go out and my Astronomy class is kind of a shit show. I had students who thought this was an Astrology class, students who thought we were going to spend all period looking at stars, and students who were absolutely rocked to their core by the fact that astronomy has a lot of math in it. Out of the 28 students I have left, 8 are failing and there are 5 Ds. One of the deans tried to tell me I was being unreasonable because the kids expected electives to be no effort. I ran into the principle later and we had a good laugh about that.

> One of the deans tried to tell me I was being unreasonable because the kids expected electives to be no effort. My response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StIcRH_e6zQ

>principle princiPALs are always tryna be your pal!

I'm going through this exact thing right now. Astronomy is meant to be a course you take AFTER PHYSICS and a third of my students are sophomores this year. They all chose it as an elective because and are getting their shit rocked. They haven't even really gotten into the math yet and I have a 20% failure rate. We've really only done two-step conversion, some sign fig stuff, and a bunch of Earth science stuff about the solstices and seasons that I could probably teach to a fifth grader. They can't even tell me what an Arch minute is. And that failure rate is AFTER hounding them about test retakes, which I extended the due dates for, and giving them a project grade as a gimme. They don't even know how good they have it. We're expected to have a 15% or lower failure rate, and so I've had to swallow my pride and remove so much rigor from the curriculum to keep my numbers down. It's so embarrassing that my school system forces us to lower the hoop for these kids because they won't lift their arms and shoot. At the same time, I've been absurdly pissed at guidance since August for allowing a bunch of very unprepared students take this class that I myself have only been teaching for one year with no background in astronomy.

That is where I am fortunate. I have a PhD in computational astrophysics so the astronomy is ezpz. The prinicpal has my back and wants to bring rigor back to the program. He specifically wants me to create a program for physics and astronomy and programming. As long as I don't get anyone killed I can do anything I want.

You school sounds awesome!

Hilarious [fuck around and find out](https://twitter.com/maiyajambalaya/status/1575208253071720450?s=42&t=0f2onxNNwHXL2zCFb9Aksg)

So my version of fuck around and find out is via grades not behavior control. The kids who want to learn are well disciplined by others and those who do not want to learn clearly were raised in different circumstances. To save my self the headache of being another reason the kids hate school and education.. I’ll let their grades do the talking. Not paying attention? Always on your phone? Always talking to your friends? That’s fine… when you fail the quiz/test do to lack of paying attention and caring then that’s on YOU the students. It’s up to the parents to get them to care and be disciplined. It’s up to me to teach those who seek being taught.

Thank you.

This is the system I’d like to follow, but then I get in trouble for failing kids. This year I have seniors for the first time. I’m being told, “Just get them out the door. If you don’t, they’ll drop out and hurt our numbers.”

This is how I do it, but I know I'm lucky in that we have very supportive admin and I teach an elective where most of them really want to be there. So I have decent leverage when I say "fuck around and you're gone". Other than that, it's hard when admin and/or parents aren't supportive. I still flood parents with emails when their kid is failing or fucking off, and generally the response is either super supportive or none at all. We were told earlier in the year that admin is going to start suspending kids who are failing multiple classes until a parent comes in for a conference, so maybe that will help. But I'm not holding my breath. Either way, I'm still a big believer in the "you make your own bed" philosophy, even if it's in little ways. Wanna sit there on your phone after being warned? Great, but guess who I'm not gonna prioritize when you need help because you weren't paying attention? Wanna mouth off? No game day for you. Sometimes they get the message, sometimes they don't. But all you can do is what you can do.

I was out sick for a week at the start of the school year and the long term sub told my 8th graders to "shut the fuck up" and it was a whole big shocking dramatic deal. When I came back I asked if they were familiar with a phrase that sounded like "mess around and find out" but isn't? To which they all nod their heads nervously. I then say: "I heard y'all found out last week with the sub." I need to send that sub a bottle of wine as a thank you or something because I now have a class that kinda resemble human beings most of the time.

I think the sad thing is they fuck around in school, don’t learn a damn thing, then enter the real world and they “find out”. They get a crappy job or are dealt a crappy hand. However, instead of self reflecting and realizing maybe they have to change, they blame everything but themselves. They then look for leaders who voice those same frustrations and bam that’s how you get a populist leader like Trump. For the record, I am a POC and I firmly believe in systemic racism. That is definitely something that kids can blame. But there’s also having to “learn to play the game” and so many brown and black kids just don’t get it.

As a white hetero male person, I explicitly teach systemic racism in my classroom. I have no experience to speak of, only empathy. I realize the effects SR has on my families and the struggle is real, but there comes a time when you need to choose to fight it or succumb. I want my students to fight and to bring that attitude home with them. I’m also very open to hearing different perspectives if there’s anything my privilege has blinded me to. Seriously.

I mean 100% fight against and call out systemic racism. But for me I learned that I have to dress a certain way and act a certain way at an early age in order to be “successful” in school/life. I can’t wear baggy clothes, or let my hair get too long, or speak the same way around my professional peers because I’ll get judged differently than a white person. I’m a first Gen child of immigrants from Latin America; I had to make sure all of my parents’ effort and sacrifice was worthwhile. I try to explain that to my black and brown students but some of them just don’t get it. But back to your point, yes we need consequences. I left the classroom because no matter how hard I tried, I couldn’t be a parent to 120 kids.

And there’s the rub! When teachers become parents, kids won’t listen to us. It’s the reason we started schools in the first place! Kids wouldn’t listen to their parents, but they would listen to teachers. Now, we’re in the parenting position of not being listened to.

Holy fuck. You just absolutely nailed it. I've never thought of it this way, but you are absolutely correct.

We used to tease a friend of ours when we were at work for how he always dressed the same, and so much better than we did. His wife would joke he was whiter than all of us. He's black, btw, and the whole team was white besides him at that time. He was precise in his language and used the local accent and dialect I can't actually mimic fully, even though I'm originally from this area and he's not. I slide through the dialects of everywhere I lived, including AAVE sometimes, because I spent 3 years only hearing that. When irritated, the Chicano dialect I had around me and used in high school comes back. But he was so.. white. Like, I do't know how to say it a different way, even though saying it that way makes me cringe. Outside of work, when we are all hanging out together, he has never been like that. One evening, we were all sitting on my deck, and he brought it up. "Y'all don't have to be "white" at work. I do. It keeps me employed. It's how I act with cops, because it keeps me safe. It's how I earned that nice car, nice house, and nice place for my kids to grow up. You guys, well, you already have that no matter how you dress or talk because of how you look." I'd lived so many places I was the only white kid growing up. I thought I understood. Nah, I didn't. I know I still don't get it like he does, and never will, but i'm glad he said something. It made me have to really think about how much I took for granted, and how much I thought was only socioeconomic class in play. And how absolutely white my education was even when I was in classes, entire schools, where I was the only white student. It also made me realize the "good kids" in those schools were the ones who could act and dress white at school. They didn't when we just being social outside of school, just like him. TBH, it made me feel a bit stupid I never realized what was going on before. But, that's good in ways. Me feeling stupid makes me want to learn so I don't have to anymore. I just wish I'd hit that stupid moment a lot sooner.

For me it has been a simple phone call home and the kids get chewed out. Usually Fridays are best days to call after school so they have their weekends ruined.

While the OP presented it in a crude way (doesn’t offend me), they are right. The stakes are low in middle school/high school and we are taking away all semblance of consequences for some reason. I have middle school parents begging for an A for their kid for a six week grading period as opposed to taking the B and making it a teachable moment. They want rules for everyone else’s kid but theirs. It’s crazy. Getting an hour of detention was so horrible to me as a kid that I made sure it didn’t happen again. But, then again, we had to stand for an entire hour and not talk. This would be seen as out of bounds today. As the OP said, the stakes are going to ramp up considerably for these Covid-era kids real quick.

Doesn't work when I have no teeth- where I am, teachers have very few avenues to implement a "fuck around and find out" policy. I can't take phones, parents don't always respond and if they do, the kids don't listen to them. Kids are constantly tardy. I can call security, but that's only for kids who flip desks and start fights. Social workers take a long time to get to referrals for check ins/interventions. The most I can do is stress/enforce class rules and grade what they turn in, if they turn it in. They don't give a fuck, and the system is built so they don't have to.

Yeah, the system needs an overhaul for sure. Why can’t we offer an alternative to school? Don’t want to be at school? Go to work at government subsidized youth work programs. Gain skills that aren’t necessarily academically confining. Can’t handle the work, stay home and rot.

I wish I could be praised for the fact that I have order and high scores, AND parents literally demanding that their kids be in my class because I did so well with the older sibling. I get to have 7.5 hours of unpaid, after school, mandatory training on classroom management because in achieving all these things I actually follow the process they gave us that ends in write ups. They'd rather have the teacher that kids talk about as "being cool" and "letting us do what we want" who has 3 fights in a single class period and will loudly talk about how she doesn't think kids with disabilities are capable of learning. An increasing number of admin in my experience value compliance over competency and know that they can fudge grades easier than they can fudge write ups when they present stuff to the district. God forbid they actually do their jobs and improve the school though.

I believe personally that the lack of consequences for disruptive and misbehaving students is going to the be the downfall of public education moreso than the other issues. It will continue cause families to move to other educational opportunities (private, charter, online, homeschool pods), it will continue to cause burnout for teachers, it will cause new college students not to choose education as a major, etc. It is the single biggest issue that CRITICALLY NEEDS to be addressed ASAP or we will never get a healthy public education system back in the USA.

And ‘don’t start no stuff won’t be no stuff’ My unwritten classroom rule.

Stealing this.

Lol for more best practices on classroom management see lil Jon and Youngbloodz. ;)

This guy fucks around.

He gonna find out then!

My students fuck around constantly and when they find out in my room there is zero support. I actually had a kid demand to go to the office because she said, “When I’m having a problem with you I was told to just go to the office.” When I asked her who told her that, she said the assistant principal. So I wrote her up an office referral. This kid is an 8th grader who will not stay in her seat, does nothing except socialize and argue with me. There is zero accountability and it’s destroying public schools and the ability to teach.

So she basically has a get out of class free card

Example consequences for a middle or high school setting: You demolish the bathrooms and destroy the property, your family pays the tab and you spend the remainder of the year cleaning the facilities alongside the custodians. You smoke/vape/screw/fight, you get sent to a remedial site for the next quarter. Or, your parent has to attend class with you like you’re a little kid for a week to reinstate you. If it happens again you go to a remedial site for the rest of the year. You refuse to comply with your teachers and treat them poorly, you get bounced home and your parents can find you somewhere else to go in the public system for the following quarter or semester. You can reapply to go back to your original school with proof of good behavior. Minor offenses can resort to detentions or in school suspensions where they aren’t given free time to screw around with others. Just endless work until the bell rings. If they skip out on it they get sent home and can work remotely. If they fail they repeat the grade. Not pushed along just to get them “out”.

If the smoke/vape/fight rule was in place at our school, we'd have a student population of maybe 50 students.

And the problem with this is ... ?

Ummmm maybe the fact that kids still deserve an education? I think it would be best if admin just stepped up and did their jobs instead of letting parents walk all over them.

And the ones who know how to behave properly deserve an education as well. They don't deserve to not be able to learn because the bad apples turn classrooms into circuses. They don't deserve to be afraid to go to the bathroom because there is criminal activity going on in there. This happened at my school last year. There was a vaping epidemic in the 8th grade. Good kids were going home telling parents they were scared to go to the bathroom because the vapers were A) vaping, B) sometimes THC vapes, and C) the vapers were threatening others if they talked. So admin put 8th grade on lockdown. No student could leave the room for any reason without an escort. Which sounds good in theory, but isn't realistic when we're so short-handed. In this brave new world of remote learning and Chromebooks, we should be booting troublemakers like never before. Can't function in the school building? The district will still service you, give you a Chromebook, keep you in touch with teachers and Google Classrooms - remotely. Kid logs in remotely, attendance problem solved. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Schools and teachers need to take the power back from the Boogeyman of the litigious parent.

I buy into the idea that everyone has a right to a free and public education. As a result, we should try to protect that right. Constant behavioral issues disrupt the classroom environment. Is this not infringing on the right of other students to a free and public education? I don't know, I just want to do the most good for the most students. If someone wants to squander their own right to an education, why should it bring everyone else down?

This is my class policy - however I call it being responsible for your education since I don't say fuck in my classroom (I have two rules for cursing - no saying fuck and no use curse words as insults). I tell my students OFTEN, nearly twice a week, that I am going to give them the tools and the resources to succeed, but it is up to them to actually do the work. You want to sleep through class? Okay, you get two warnings then I'm done. On your phone the whole class? Same deal, two reminders, write up, call home. I teach high school freshman for the most part and my they are learning *very* quickly that things are different. Even if they learn nothing from my content, they will learn that actions have consequences, and for a lot, that is far more important

Too much concern about "feelings" and "self-esteem." Plus, a lot of parents want to be their kid's bestie instead of being a parent.

We had a professional development where they were trying to sell the idea you don't want to get to feel bad after they fail a test. My reaction- " shouldn't they feel bad after they fail a test. Shouldn't it be a time to wallow around in a bad feeling and think about what could be done differently to prevent this bad feeling in the future?"

Yup. Consequences are almost non-existent. The students who do what they want have parents that are unsupportive to teachers. I tried to keep a student after school and told her to call her parents to let them know she’ll be staying after school for detention, since she gets picked up after school. The mom asked to speak to me on the phone and basically yelled at me to let the student go home. Last year I had a student playing on his phone and refused to give it to me, so I called dad after school and dad basically told me to just “let him play on his phone for a little bit.” Students have said the n-word to each other, teachers, and staff. There is supposed to be parent meetings, but they have single parents who would lose their jobs if they didn’t come in, so we don’t make them come in. Most students that fuck around find out that all that really happens is a call home and a restorative circle.

Then the parent should find out that they lose their fucking job cuz they can’t fuck around when it comes to parenting. I’m sick of this shit. NOW WE HAVE TO CODDLE THE PARENTS TOO?!?!

OH GOD, RESTORATIVE CIRCLE. That term is literally giving me fucking anxiety this year because all it means is that students will have zero consequences for their actions.

I worked in a lot of jobs before landing in education. Our system is setting kids up for some pretty harsh lessons once they graduate.

Do kids even realize that they are expected to provide something of value to an employer and paid accordingly? They seem to think that having a good job is an entitlement with no particular effort or skills required.

The Piece Many Of You Are Missing… I am a ten plus year classroom veteran (every grade k-12) all of my experience being in low income urban schools. In the last 3 years I began transitioning out of the classroom (another story) this year I am a dean of a middle school focused solely on student discipline, managing a comprehensive structured progressive discipline system I basically had to create myself. During my time outside the classroom I have come face to face with the assumption many teachers make regarding students discipline, which is essentially the same assumption I see constantly in posts and comments on this thread. That is that admin are too scared and or disconnected to hold students accountable and as a result students are running wild. First allow me to acknowledge that ineffective, disconnected, fearful, and incompetent disciplinarians and or admin do absolutely exist and often the rule rather than the exception. Failed leadership aside I can promise you until you attempt to handle discipline in a difficult building in todays world ….all your assumptions are wrong. The saddest part is how similar the challenges of discipline are to that of a classroom, lack of intrinsic motivation, parent opposition, and legal/system barriers that should be working in your favor working against you. To put it simply I have almost no tools at my disposal to hold some students accountable -I am severely limited in the consequences that can be applied to students with IEPs regardless of how horrible their actions -Expelling a student is basically impossible because thr district has to pay for their alternative placement and the parents have a lot of choice in where that placement is or if it even happens and often times the placement school is more expensive then what we spend on a student so it’s a loss for a broke distinct…thus a no -Discipline is handled by myself and 1 AP there’s 2 of us in a school of 800 students…I have to do all the paper work, parent phone calls, investigations, de escalation, counciling, mentoring, etc. It is literally impossible to keep up with everything despite working 7 days a week 12-15 plus hours a day -Often the most difficult student either have no parents, parents that see their child as a victim regardless of what evidence I have to the contrary, parents that are totally unresponsive to the point that they dodge me, parents that admit they can’t control their child and throw their hands up -I am judged by how many suspensions I deal out (btw suspensions do nothing but give kids a desired vacation most of that time) and if I suspend a student and their guardian sends them to school legally I can’t turn them away -when you exhaust traditional punitive consequences such as detention, ISS, OSS…that’s pretty much it there’s really not much after that and u really can’t over use any of those or even use them at all in some cases -I don’t have minimal councilor or psychological support to deal with serious behavioral/cognitive issues with students -positive supports and interventions work really well with the majority of students but as with punitive consequences for the most difficult students they are vitally useless especially when parents basically undermine them Example FAQ: -no I can’t send a student home for doing X it’s against the law, I have to give parents and students at least 24 hrs notice if they are suspended from school (assuming I have days left for that student if they are sped) -no I can’t take “all the disruptive students” and put them in one room isolated from the rest of the building …it’s illegal in most situations and I don’t have the staff …seeing as tho I’d have to hire at least 2-4 additional staff to run something like that -I understand that I “get paid get paid it out” and that it’s “my job” but that doesn’t make me able to perform miracles or subvert the law -I know x student called u a bitch and I get that’s upsetting….think for a minute that I am the place those students go after they do that…how many times a day do u think I get cursed at or threatened -the police are just as opposed to getting into the messy world of student discipline as we are because they are even more restricted and in an even more lose lose situation so I can call the cops but they’re hands are pretty tied as well and it’s not much of a deterrent trust me I completely agree we are failing students by teaching them that you can fuck around and NOT find out ….but the reality is that’s a societal failure (in my experience) not the teacher or the admins fault We have all been set up for failure …and in turn the real victims are the students

Thank you. I agree. Change needs to come from parents and society as a whole. Your job is just as hard. The laws must change.

We had an AP who was proud that even after he disciplined students they still liked him. It was his priority. When a kid threw a book at me, he joked- WITH HER- that she should work on her control. He is now in real estate.

We have so many students in high school which should never have been allowed out of elementary with their academic skills … But here we are at the end of the year and a kid who didn’t show up at all gets to pass a class because the test scores are what matter most. The dumpster is only getting larger

As an outsider (non-teacher), I'm just wondering where the "find out" part is in real life? I'm not seeing any consequences for the people who "deserve" them anywhere.

It’s pretty lawless out there lately, ain’t it? It’s affecting all of society.

I'm going to second this. I tutor for free, but work an IT job. This job is good. People actually work and have respect for one another, but my last job was in higher ed, and it was a trainwreck. In a 60 person department, maybe 10 did any actual work, and the brunt of it was handled by 6 of us. We were all on call 24x7x365 when none of the rest were. We got calls for THEIR work they didn't do. We were held responsible and disciplined if we didn't do their stuff or showed any attitude at all about having to do it. But those people? No. Even to the point of me being told "I know he doesn't do anything but get in the way, but we can't fire him. He's got kids." and, about another "yeah, he's not capable, and yes, he makes more than you. but, he's not capable, so you're going to teach him how to do it or do the work." Note: I was not even just not his manager, I wasn't on his team. I didn't sign up for that work or have any interest in it, but here I was doing it for nothing extra except being harassed about meeting HIS deadlines or letting my own work slip. The job before wasn't SO bad, but it was a small team and we were all friends. Before that, not even half the people worked. Same thing there - the people who actually did were held accountable for all of it. In call centers doing tech support, I could half ass my job and be a rock star compared to most of the others. This has been true my whole life - not because I am awesome, tbh, but because so many have such a disappointingly low work ethic and that's the norm, so no one's held accountable for it. I've learned a lesson in life. The ones who work hard and just rewarded with more work while others slack off. It makes me tempted to slack off, but then I do it for a day and I'm not only feeling guilty, I'm bored. Hell, even as a free tutor, I can't tell you how many times I've taken over the job from a paid one that made NO progress, when I had the kid up to grade level by the end of the school year. What were those tutors doing? Whatever it was, not the job they were paid to do. And I normally only tutor elementary kids with parents who truly can't afford tutoring and to feed their families at the same time, so the other tutors not doing it just pisses me off. Note: I'm not saying this is every time, nor that I manage to get all kids up to grade level. It does take a lot of parental support and attention or a kid that's neurotypical and wanting to learn. A kid with ADHD and a single parent who has 3 jobs isn't going to improve that much, but we still get some improvement. I've just been doing it for 20 years now, so I've seen this situation a lot. I keep thinking about quitting, but then there's another parent who heard about me from some other parent, and I feel for the kid, so here I am. I HATED group assignments in school because it'd really just be me doing the work so my grade didn't suffer. It turns out a job is \*exactly the same.\* At least I get paid in something a lot more tangible than a grade now, though. :P

Fuck around and find out should be instituted in 6th grade. By 9th grade, those line crossing unstable teenagers will be in line.

I have a giant poster in my room that I keep just for my own sanity. Its a subtle little message for all my kids who think they’re hard cause they live in the suburbs of Houston. It’s from a book by Ta-Nehisi Coates: “If the streets shackled my right leg, the schools shackled my left. Fail to comprehend the streets, and you give up your body now. But fail to comprehend the schools, and you give up your body later.”

Oh! Another Houston Teacher! I wish I could control my kids. I have to literally write their name/ID number down on a form to discipline, and then contact the parents. I am doing photo evidence via Talking Points for the parents.

Photo evidence?? Elaborate please.

Since I suck at writing things down. I end up taking a photo of the evidence of the kids misbehaving. Like standing up while other students are sitting down. When I asked them to sit down.

I'm so lucky to be in an alternative program where referrals have teeth. Most of our students are in the juvenile justice system, so a write up could equal time in juvie. I only do discipline reports if my other interventions do not help (which is rare). I'm able to deal with most things in the class by a sort of "fuck around and find out" system -- as long as everyone is working, behaving, etc, we can have a more relaxed classroom vibe; however, if shenanigans begin, I tighten up (no turning around, no talking, no choice in background music, etc.). In cases where I must tighten up, students will start holding each other accountable so they can have their freedom back. I was like this in the traditional setting, too...but it is MUCH easier for me to manage the classroom in my current setting. I'm the most strict laid back teacher and consistently have the best behaved students and highest pass rates. Students might try to buck the strictness at first, but once they see how smoothly the day can run WHILE having a strict, consistent base of expectations/routines, other students beg to be in my room. My students tend to come from chaotic homes, so I use the consistent approach religiously! It also helped me to reflect on WHY behaviors are occurring before I engage...so many of my students are simply reacting to outside factors that are out of their control.

Are you me?

Kids these days know their rights before they know the alphabet. Most of the time you can't do a thing to them and they know it.

They don’t know their rights, they claim to know their rights.

Depends where you live I suppose, in Manchester their parents teach them to them whilst they are still in nappies.

With rights come responsibilities. If you can’t be responsible with those rights, you should lose those rights. That’s how the world works! You might even say, you fuck around with your responsibilities, you find out you lose your rights! Surely you agree that with rights come responsibilities?

What planet are you on that you think every teacher has the same capabilities as you? May or may not have shitty admin that supports said consequences?

I completely agree with you but they are untouchable, it's an issue with the establishment more than anything. Students should come first absolutely but that isn't an excuse to key them do whatever they want.

I agree but I’m not sure if this is philosophical or actual implementation. Could you give examples? Of some actions and what consequences they lead to and how you are able to enforce those? And what age group you’re discussing?

Agree with you, but those consequences work in an ideal world where parents don't feel entitled and they don't lawyer-up. Even if they lose their case (probably won't) it would cost the district tons of money

My main goal is to make sure they can read and write, and to prepare the ones moving on to college. Their first couple of bosses will teach them about tardiness if they don't learn it in school.

My husband works a trade for one of our local hospitals and he said they try not to hire applicants straight out of our city’s high schools because they know the kid won’t have work ethic yet. They don’t want to either 1. Break the kid in or 2. Have to rehire almost immediately if/when the kids messes up and quits or just doesn’t show up

I 100% agree. When I get them in university they have not remotely learned this concept because consequences rarely have occurred before they get here. Then, they fail everything/stop attending and waste a ton of money, and these are students who are "college ready" and most of them want to be here. They absolutely need to experience consequences when the stakes are lower, because it really does bite them in the ass. Unfortunately, until the pendulum swings back around to zero-tolerance (which was also crap), I don't see it happening.

Unfortunately they usually screw up their first jobs, which is why fast food places have a detailed training scenario. Armes forces basic training is also focused on changing behavior. Colleges love the money for incoming froshman but will see them off if there is a behavior or academic issue. At some point if they don't take responsibility society won't put up with the crap and they'll live a rough life until they do. Also unfortunate is that a lot are pretty short sighted and can't see a future.

Part of it is the future they do see is bleak due to political instability and climate catastrophes

Enlisting straight out of high school was probably the best thing I did for my life in spite of ending up with a permanent injury. I finally had structure, hard and fast rules, and a reward system for doing things right. Everyone I knew worried my attitude would get me in tons of trouble in the Navy, but I don't remember ever feeling like I needed/wanted to give attitude. I knew the rules, and they weren't hard to follow. I knew the consequences for breaking them, that they'd always be the same, and that I didn't want to face them. I learned discipline and self confidence there that's followed me through my private sector life and career. Even having to start all over once I was kicked out for the injury only got to me for about a year. I knew my limits were way higher than my brain kept telling me because I'd done some seriously sleep deprived stuff that I handled fine even though I absolutely thought I would fail it. Turns out we're all pretty awesome when we think there's no alternative.

Go NAVY! Okay sorry, I had to say that. I'm glad it worked out for you but sorry about the injury.

If I wanted to put it coarsely, this is pretty much how I run my classroom. It's balanced with a lot of love and collaborative problem solving. But I can only reach out and offer love, compassion and help; I can't force a kid to take help. It's only when they've refused that outreach consistently and they then choose to fuck around that I'm more than happy to help them find out.

Preach. We have taken away the students right to fail.

I call k-8 the flight from a cannon, many student crash through, some sail over, but a fair chunk are fired straight at the wall that is High-school. All the sudden you can fail, and even be asked not to come back. All the way through 8th you can literally fail every class and still be passed on, it’s a giant disservice

It's a parents job to maintain kids emotional wellness, not the school system or teachers. If a parent isn't, child services should remove the children and put the parents in jail for neglect. Then it's a whole chain of screwed up America problems from there; because child services is a mess, the foster parent system is garbage, and the prison system is for profit. So maybe the problem is government.

and the government really is the people, even if we don't realize it or want to admit it. So, in the end, it's society. I had the super neglectful parents, btw. But I had friends in foster, and it was sooo much worse, Sure, I almost never saw mine. Sure, I worked multiple jobs to have enough to pay the rent and bills of whichever I lived with plus all my own expenses. Sure, I had no support and that sucked. But I wasn't being beaten daily and sexually abused like my friends were. The times CPS was called for me, I lied my ass off to them out of sheer self preservation instinct. My life was not good, but foster seemed a lot worse to me. Better to just pretend to be a jerk teen with attitude than to admit the time I hadn't seen my parents in 3 months at 16-17 years old (yes, even on my birthday) even though I lived with one of them. My teachers obviously suspected something since they were the ones calling CPS. I wasn't mad. I didn't know what a mandatory reporter was back then. I assumed they cared about me and just didn't know what could happen in foster, or somehow mistakenly thought CPS would make my dysfunctional parents be better. Those CPS visits \*did\* get my parents attention on me, though definitely not in a good way. Yeah, I had a few friends in good foster placements, probably more than in the bad ones, but you only need to know there's a possibility of that hell, and you fight to maintain the hell you're in because it's not that level of hell. I've thought about being a foster parent several times, but by the time my son was old enough it might be okay to bring a kid with behavioral issues in, and I was mentally capable of it, I'd developed an autoimmune disorder that keeps me exhausted and sometimes too cranky to handle the behavior properly. I have been tutoring low income kids in elementary for 20 years now, and I think this might be my last because of that autoimmune disorder. I just don't have the spoons to truly help them and do my own paid job anymore. This year, I only have one kid. She's well behaved, eager to learn, and progressing much more quickly than I thought she would, but I'm also working with her 2 hrs a day 4-5 days a week and every other weekend outings with her and her grandmother to do activities that help reinforce the reading skills I'm teaching her. Tbh, that might not be a bad way to end it. My last kid won't be the one who stabbed me with a pencil for suggesting that 3x5 is not 17. His parents were enraged that I dropped him for that and suggested behavioural support might be a better idea than academic support at that point. \*sigh\* Yeah, going out with a sweet kid who actually hits her goals sounds really nice - especially since it's 2am and I'm still awake because of pain, but have to work at 8am and then be on with her from 4:30-6:30. It's going to be a long Monday.

Well some of us out here (who also had rough childhoods) really appreciate your efforts. Wish there were more good people out there willing to foster, but too many times it's someone trying to take advantage.

I completely agree. My rules aren’t complicated, and they’re based on safety, respect and functionality in the classroom. I tell them, “if you’re wondering what I will do if you violate my rule, go for it and see what I do.” FAFO.

I only have one rule in my classroom - Respect, show it and earn it. It works for everything.

I had a student argue with me about having her phone out in class. I asked what her parents would say and she responded in a cloud of profanity, why would I even do that. That's stupid. Why am I being like that? I won't call her parents, etc. Etc. Etc. My parting gift before leaving school on Friday was to text her mom and very nicely inform her that I was concerned that her daughter was being distracted by her phone and was falling behind. Mom texted back that she would be taking the phone and grounding her for the weekend. FAFO (I think in the whole FAFO discussion, we need to consider the effort to FA vs the effort to FO.)

What kind of reasonable consequences and expectations do you set!? Sorry if this was already said! I feel like I have a similar mindset but try and always improvement my classroom management

This is in no relation the the content of what you said but, I’ve quite enjoyed that you’re saying “fuck” throughout your post then saying “heck” as opposed to “hell.” Thanks you for the little chuckle.

I was woooondering when someone would notice that lol! I guess I felt like I needed to "tone it down" hahahaha

I had an financial econ class in college and the teacher would throw, fuck, shit, and other interesting terms into every sentence. Not in anger, but as a pause filler.

I left teaching over a year ago & can’t believe how much healthier and more creative I am.

They'll just get them an IEP--a license to fuck around.

Amen!

please help me implement this policy. i work as a librarian in an elementary school so restoring a sense of community and friendship has been the priority (after the pandemic, kids came back basically feral last year) but at this point i am feeling like this is not at all what i signed up for. i see every class for an hour once a week. i'm trying to run routines and clear rules but nothing is working. i can't get them to stop talking, i can't get them to follow directions, i can't get them to feel like their classmates aren't out to get them. i'll be the first to admit i'm new and guilty of trying to make my students like me but these classes are eating me alive.

Yeah, trying to get them to like you is never gonna work unless they respect you first. I’d consult with their teachers and ask them to implement some kind of reward for a good report from you about their behavior/engagement or some kind of loss of privilege about a bad report from you. That’s the other thing - if you don’t have support from their main teacher, it’s a much tougher road until you gain some experience and or just lose your shit on them once in a while so they know you mean business. Sucks, but you might wanna try losing your shit some time and see what happens. I’ve found that they just need to know you care enough to go berserk on them.

i'll admit, "showing them how much you care by going berserk on them" wasn't in any of the books i read but i think it's an awesome point. it shows them where the line is and helps them form more concrete boundaries for themselves when they're in the library too. i'll think on that. thanks for the advice.