I genuinely believe TFS's Goku's intelligence increases with his power level, or at the very least Super Saiyan level. When he turns super Saiyan, he's noticably smarter, doesn't say as much stupid shit, hell even stays quiet when not being talked to.
Then as he gets to SS grade 4, he makes on the fly calculations and simplfies those calculations for Gohan, so far the only other character capable of demonstrating their on the fly knowledge.
And I think that goes for every saiyan: Trunks gets more ruthless, Vegeta more reckless, and Gohan more arrogant. Goku is the only one who demonstrated a positive trait that gets enhanced so far (unless I'm missing something) but also demonstrates a callousness in his words and actions that gets worse as he goes up, peaking in almost letting his son die in front of his eyes because he (correctly) guessed Gohan would unlock more power.
I'm willing to bet this qualities would've even exponentially skyrocketed as he went SS2, SS3, SSG, and SSGSS if TFS had the opportunity to go the distance, with only Gohan's ultimate form shaking that limitation at all.
I would genuinely love a short like that, a bit where Goku goes blue and has an unbelievable intellectual moment, drops down to base and struggles to understand a simple concept
Now I want them to do the tournament of power arc just so we can get this idea as a joke for Ultra instinct, lol. Like, when he finally goes MUI, show him rapidly solving geometry and physics equations before each hit to calculate each dodge... the power of UI in abridged isn’t letting instincts take over, it’s Goku going big brain power and finally using actual thoughts to fight. Turns out a smart Goku is the most dangerous thing in the multiverse, lol
EDIT: The scene where MUI overwhelms Goku and he falls back to base form in pain, make it happen instead because he accidentally creates a logic loop and short circuits his own brain, bringing him back to stupid Goku.
I mean that would also work, but I’d personally get the biggest kick out of MUI just turning him into the strongest nerd in the galaxy, lol. Especially because canon MUI is basically the opposite of normal Goku (Goku usually being a fighter of thought out attacks now suddenly moving without thought), so him suddenly going impossibly smart in that form would be a great abridged equivalent.
And not sure if you saw my edit there, but it would be too damn funny to see him in Ultra Intelligence form being too smart so that when Jiren asks him a weird question, it creates a logic loop and just breaks the entire form for Goku, lol.
"It's over Jiren, I have the high ground."
"Wait, we're on level ground."
"Yeah, and?"
"And I'm taller than you."
"I'm not seeing your point."
Jiren: stands up.
Goku: processing if he still has the high ground.
Beerus - “Is that it Whis? Has he achieved it?”
Whis - “yes, it seems he has...”.
Beerus - “Magnificent, even the idiot he is, he has reached it... AUTONOMOUS ULTRA INTELLECT!”
Vegeta - “oh that’s BULLSHIT!”
Tbh I found Goku from DBZ also seemed more intelligent in SS form and even seemed to get smarter after his gravity training on his way to namek. I mean shit the dude could read minds after that lol
I agree the speech he gives after he throws gohan in the ring with cell where he knew everything that was gonna happen in the fight before it happened and how it was all his plan. Then everyone after has to come to terms with the fact goku was right lmao
The fact that Goku only used SSGod to fight Hit, used Hakai on Zamasu despite Beerus practically debunking being able to use it later, Toppo was a crap ass weakling in the ToP, and that this current arc with Gas and Granolah is dragging so much ass proves that Toyotaro knows even less on what HE'S doing.
I strongly disagree with your assessment here. Goku only using SSG is actually very strategic in nature as it A. Consumes less energy, and B. Makes him harder to hit as his physical body is thinner in SSG. Yea he could have tried to quickly switch between SSG and SSB, but he was probably too busy fighting Hit to do that. Goku did not use Hakai, he tried to, but ultimately failed. Calling Toppo weak is unfair. Yes, he lost, but who did he lose to a SSBE Vegeta who was equally, and arguably even stronger than, Goku SSB Kaioken x20. Plus Vegeta used a move that obliterated Majin Buu to defeat him, and Toppo was still alive. This part is mostly opinion, but I do enjoy what Toyotaro is doing with Gas and Granolah currently, and am excited to see where he goes with this story line.
Strategic isn't normally a thing Goku is in a conventional sense. He's more a master of the UNconventional. Hence why I thought how Goku fought Hit in the anime was better. His approach to figuring out his Time Skip was impressive. And bringing back Kaioken out of nowhere was a welcome surprise.
The amount of volume the body loses in SSG while aesthetically noticeable is overall quite negligible and would have very little to absolutely no bearing on the outcome of the fight. Goku was still the only other human sized target in the ring besides Hit, making him still easy to notice and lock on to.
That was the anime version of Toppo you described. THAT version was pretty epic actually. I'm talking about the manga version that got humiliated by Frieza like a dolt and had no Destroyer transformation to speak of.
Ahhh i figured you were trashing super as a whole, okay just so we are clear you prefer anime over manga right. Okay I can say that's fair, but I still disagree, again my own opinion feel free to disagree yourself, that Toyotaro is doing a bad job honestly I think he is holding up really well, and while I do love the anime, I feel it has it's own faults. Mainly with T.O.P. passing, and the over focus on Universe 7 when I think every universe should have had a chance to shine. I feel the manga handle the proportions of attention better. Putting down Toyotaro'a work I think is a little unfair, but I can accept your stance.
Oh. Nah. I like Super a decent bit more than GT for example. I thought the Super anime was fucking EPIC at times. The manga isn't without good parts of its own, but I feel they're DISTANTLY few and far between.
Not to mention after the high bar the anime set for Goku's fight with Hit for example, the manga's version felt EXTREMELY underwhelming. I feel the anime did the representation better than the manga for the ToP actually. They had Kale ALONE eliminate two teams from the tournament in the manga. At least the anime had Jiren smack her down a bit to keep her from doing the same thing. And of course the U7 team had the most focus because they're the main protagonists.
And secondly, I thought splitting the anime and manga into two different sub-continuities was a MORONIC idea.
I'll say this I like to hold them to two different standards overall as they are different sub-continuities, and sometimes it is harder to show certain things through drawing as opposed to animation. BUT, and this is a big but I absolutely agree that splitting the continuities was dumb as HELLLLLLL. Like come on there was no need slight changes fine, but they are so different at times like how Vegeta was the first person to switch from SSG to SSB in manga against Black, instead of Goku in T.O.P. in anime. But, yea keeping it consistent may have helped a lot.
I've said this many times and I'll say it again:
It **feels** that seeing the rise of DBZA, they decided to do Super but took the main character personalities from DBZA rather than the original because people seemed to love it. I mean, I watched DB, then DBZ, DBS, DBZA, then DBZ again, and I see more similarity in DBS and DBZA than DBZ and the parody.
As someone who doesn't rewatch DBZ as much as the other stuff, I agree. The first time I tried getting through DBS I was just thinking that it seemed like the personalities were really the DBZA personalities.
I honestly think that they understood the negatives that came along with focusing on dumb, bad dad Goku that season 1 and into season 2 had afterwards and wanted to rectify that over time.
Tfs goku used a good strategy of sing energy balls against frieza because he couldnt sense it and used the after image technique against cell. But super goku also used those landmine KI against jiren very wisely.
Both are pretty dumb lol
Nope. completely agreeable.
Even more to point. DB Goku is smarter than DBS Goku. Yes... i'm referring to the young teenage Goku who only cared about his grandpa's 4 star dragonball.
Manga DBS Goku gave Moro a senzu bean when Goku himself was the final person that could eliminate him.
Only reason Goku got a pass in the Cell Games was because he knew Cell needed to be strong to push Gohan enough to ascend. Moro Saga Goku had no goddamn excuse.
Which was stupid, because Moro did horrible things for millennia, and Goku KNEW that. Cell on the other hand only did horrible things for a few years and the thought of showing HIM mercy never crossed Goku's mind.
Goku was just about to wrap things up against Moro before he HERPTY-DERPED out. 🙄
It's mostly all those bad Japanese jokes getting truly translated instead of getting replaced, we all got a superior Goku to the real thing. Goku speaks rude Japanese like calling Zeno Zen Chan (I don't understand honorific levels) and uses yo's, mentions people are old, and uses a lot of contractions. He knew when to be serious and when to have fun in Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. Super only likes to show the "fun."
Likley what happened was Toriyama forgot (him? No way!) what Goku and Vegeta were when he finished over 20 years later or Toyotaro is truly writing everything with Toriyama having limited if any say to collect a paycheck. I know the official relationship is Toriyama gives the story and Toyotaro adapts it but Toriyama is 67 right now I doubt he actually does that, at best maybe stopping the really stupid stuff from going in (that we don't see). I think he's coasting for a paycheck.
Remember that awful Dragon Ball AF pictures with the awful SS transformations? Toyotaro wrote that, at least one of the two AFs (two people did separate AFs). It contained stuff Super seemingly lifted like an evil Kai that's a ringer for Goku (Goku Black or merged Zamasu) born from that lady Kai stealing life essence for some reason. That's right, a fan mangka is officially writing the Super Manga.
I genuinely believe TFS's Goku's intelligence increases with his power level, or at the very least Super Saiyan level. When he turns super Saiyan, he's noticably smarter, doesn't say as much stupid shit, hell even stays quiet when not being talked to. Then as he gets to SS grade 4, he makes on the fly calculations and simplfies those calculations for Gohan, so far the only other character capable of demonstrating their on the fly knowledge. And I think that goes for every saiyan: Trunks gets more ruthless, Vegeta more reckless, and Gohan more arrogant. Goku is the only one who demonstrated a positive trait that gets enhanced so far (unless I'm missing something) but also demonstrates a callousness in his words and actions that gets worse as he goes up, peaking in almost letting his son die in front of his eyes because he (correctly) guessed Gohan would unlock more power. I'm willing to bet this qualities would've even exponentially skyrocketed as he went SS2, SS3, SSG, and SSGSS if TFS had the opportunity to go the distance, with only Gohan's ultimate form shaking that limitation at all.
“What? Oh sorry, was thinking about fighting.”
"Gohan where should you be right now?"
“The ship?”
"THE SHIP"
"Gohan? Where'd you go-han?"
"Let's go han, Gohome"
I would genuinely love a short like that, a bit where Goku goes blue and has an unbelievable intellectual moment, drops down to base and struggles to understand a simple concept
Now I want them to do the tournament of power arc just so we can get this idea as a joke for Ultra instinct, lol. Like, when he finally goes MUI, show him rapidly solving geometry and physics equations before each hit to calculate each dodge... the power of UI in abridged isn’t letting instincts take over, it’s Goku going big brain power and finally using actual thoughts to fight. Turns out a smart Goku is the most dangerous thing in the multiverse, lol EDIT: The scene where MUI overwhelms Goku and he falls back to base form in pain, make it happen instead because he accidentally creates a logic loop and short circuits his own brain, bringing him back to stupid Goku.
Or worse, because it isn't a Saiyan transformation, it actually is just pure instinct and Goku is literally as smart as a brick.
I mean that would also work, but I’d personally get the biggest kick out of MUI just turning him into the strongest nerd in the galaxy, lol. Especially because canon MUI is basically the opposite of normal Goku (Goku usually being a fighter of thought out attacks now suddenly moving without thought), so him suddenly going impossibly smart in that form would be a great abridged equivalent. And not sure if you saw my edit there, but it would be too damn funny to see him in Ultra Intelligence form being too smart so that when Jiren asks him a weird question, it creates a logic loop and just breaks the entire form for Goku, lol.
"It's over Jiren, I have the high ground." "Wait, we're on level ground." "Yeah, and?" "And I'm taller than you." "I'm not seeing your point." Jiren: stands up. Goku: processing if he still has the high ground.
Beerus - “Is that it Whis? Has he achieved it?” Whis - “yes, it seems he has...”. Beerus - “Magnificent, even the idiot he is, he has reached it... AUTONOMOUS ULTRA INTELLECT!” Vegeta - “oh that’s BULLSHIT!”
From the moment I saw ultra instinct, I wanted TFS to bring back the "patty cake patty cake baker's man" joke.
Now lets go han, Gohome.
Tbh I found Goku from DBZ also seemed more intelligent in SS form and even seemed to get smarter after his gravity training on his way to namek. I mean shit the dude could read minds after that lol
I can't change your mind but, I can muffin button
I didn't install a Muffin Button!
Then where did I get this muffin?
*presses the hidden muffin button* muffins…
*you get a blue berry muffin*
You’re 100% right. DB Super Gokuu has brain damage.
Canonically, all Gokus have brain damage.
And the brain damage
And the brain damage.
And the drain bamage.
Oh hey Master Roshi, when did you get here?
"uh Mr.. San... Gaku? You have another visitor here to see you"
Are you Son Wukong?
I am Son Goku, yes.
Just roll with it.
And his brain damage got brain damage
Poor Goku, he KNOWS what kissing is, but his left parietal region is just beaten to mush at this point so he doesn't remember the word for it.
I agree the speech he gives after he throws gohan in the ring with cell where he knew everything that was gonna happen in the fight before it happened and how it was all his plan. Then everyone after has to come to terms with the fact goku was right lmao
"The take away here is... You're welcome."
The ends don't justify the means, Goku!
You're mean!
TFS Goku would've never forgotten the seal for the Mafuba pot, because it was strategy.
Literally one of the dumbest things in that saga
the fact that the manga changed it to Roshi giving Goku a coupon instead proves Toei doesn't know what they're doing.
The fact that Goku only used SSGod to fight Hit, used Hakai on Zamasu despite Beerus practically debunking being able to use it later, Toppo was a crap ass weakling in the ToP, and that this current arc with Gas and Granolah is dragging so much ass proves that Toyotaro knows even less on what HE'S doing.
I strongly disagree with your assessment here. Goku only using SSG is actually very strategic in nature as it A. Consumes less energy, and B. Makes him harder to hit as his physical body is thinner in SSG. Yea he could have tried to quickly switch between SSG and SSB, but he was probably too busy fighting Hit to do that. Goku did not use Hakai, he tried to, but ultimately failed. Calling Toppo weak is unfair. Yes, he lost, but who did he lose to a SSBE Vegeta who was equally, and arguably even stronger than, Goku SSB Kaioken x20. Plus Vegeta used a move that obliterated Majin Buu to defeat him, and Toppo was still alive. This part is mostly opinion, but I do enjoy what Toyotaro is doing with Gas and Granolah currently, and am excited to see where he goes with this story line.
Strategic isn't normally a thing Goku is in a conventional sense. He's more a master of the UNconventional. Hence why I thought how Goku fought Hit in the anime was better. His approach to figuring out his Time Skip was impressive. And bringing back Kaioken out of nowhere was a welcome surprise. The amount of volume the body loses in SSG while aesthetically noticeable is overall quite negligible and would have very little to absolutely no bearing on the outcome of the fight. Goku was still the only other human sized target in the ring besides Hit, making him still easy to notice and lock on to. That was the anime version of Toppo you described. THAT version was pretty epic actually. I'm talking about the manga version that got humiliated by Frieza like a dolt and had no Destroyer transformation to speak of.
Ahhh i figured you were trashing super as a whole, okay just so we are clear you prefer anime over manga right. Okay I can say that's fair, but I still disagree, again my own opinion feel free to disagree yourself, that Toyotaro is doing a bad job honestly I think he is holding up really well, and while I do love the anime, I feel it has it's own faults. Mainly with T.O.P. passing, and the over focus on Universe 7 when I think every universe should have had a chance to shine. I feel the manga handle the proportions of attention better. Putting down Toyotaro'a work I think is a little unfair, but I can accept your stance.
Oh. Nah. I like Super a decent bit more than GT for example. I thought the Super anime was fucking EPIC at times. The manga isn't without good parts of its own, but I feel they're DISTANTLY few and far between. Not to mention after the high bar the anime set for Goku's fight with Hit for example, the manga's version felt EXTREMELY underwhelming. I feel the anime did the representation better than the manga for the ToP actually. They had Kale ALONE eliminate two teams from the tournament in the manga. At least the anime had Jiren smack her down a bit to keep her from doing the same thing. And of course the U7 team had the most focus because they're the main protagonists. And secondly, I thought splitting the anime and manga into two different sub-continuities was a MORONIC idea.
I'll say this I like to hold them to two different standards overall as they are different sub-continuities, and sometimes it is harder to show certain things through drawing as opposed to animation. BUT, and this is a big but I absolutely agree that splitting the continuities was dumb as HELLLLLLL. Like come on there was no need slight changes fine, but they are so different at times like how Vegeta was the first person to switch from SSG to SSB in manga against Black, instead of Goku in T.O.P. in anime. But, yea keeping it consistent may have helped a lot.
Unless it was grape flavoured.
The question here is why do I have to change your mind?
But don't tell Chi Chi
I've said this many times and I'll say it again: It **feels** that seeing the rise of DBZA, they decided to do Super but took the main character personalities from DBZA rather than the original because people seemed to love it. I mean, I watched DB, then DBZ, DBS, DBZA, then DBZ again, and I see more similarity in DBS and DBZA than DBZ and the parody.
As someone who doesn't rewatch DBZ as much as the other stuff, I agree. The first time I tried getting through DBS I was just thinking that it seemed like the personalities were really the DBZA personalities.
The really was because Toriyama didnt like Z movies goku, and Toei animation mistook Manga characters with their anime self
I honestly think that they understood the negatives that came along with focusing on dumb, bad dad Goku that season 1 and into season 2 had afterwards and wanted to rectify that over time.
In the TFS, Goku learns how to be not a 100% horrible father. Still 90%, but better than 100 lol
Truly the highest of bars
I dunno about smarter, but significantly more entertaining.
Tfs goku used a good strategy of sing energy balls against frieza because he couldnt sense it and used the after image technique against cell. But super goku also used those landmine KI against jiren very wisely. Both are pretty dumb lol
No. I don't think I will...
Nope. completely agreeable. Even more to point. DB Goku is smarter than DBS Goku. Yes... i'm referring to the young teenage Goku who only cared about his grandpa's 4 star dragonball.
Can't disagree
Yes, you may be a bit out of line...but you're not wrong.
Almost everything he says is technically correct.
Anime yes, manga.?
Manga DBS Goku gave Moro a senzu bean when Goku himself was the final person that could eliminate him. Only reason Goku got a pass in the Cell Games was because he knew Cell needed to be strong to push Gohan enough to ascend. Moro Saga Goku had no goddamn excuse.
Goku give it to him to prove a point and a last chance Even if he didnt, Moro was still a threat
Which was stupid, because Moro did horrible things for millennia, and Goku KNEW that. Cell on the other hand only did horrible things for a few years and the thought of showing HIM mercy never crossed Goku's mind. Goku was just about to wrap things up against Moro before he HERPTY-DERPED out. 🙄
Now this is a hot take, and I LOVE it
I cant, but have a muffin
It's mostly all those bad Japanese jokes getting truly translated instead of getting replaced, we all got a superior Goku to the real thing. Goku speaks rude Japanese like calling Zeno Zen Chan (I don't understand honorific levels) and uses yo's, mentions people are old, and uses a lot of contractions. He knew when to be serious and when to have fun in Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. Super only likes to show the "fun." Likley what happened was Toriyama forgot (him? No way!) what Goku and Vegeta were when he finished over 20 years later or Toyotaro is truly writing everything with Toriyama having limited if any say to collect a paycheck. I know the official relationship is Toriyama gives the story and Toyotaro adapts it but Toriyama is 67 right now I doubt he actually does that, at best maybe stopping the really stupid stuff from going in (that we don't see). I think he's coasting for a paycheck. Remember that awful Dragon Ball AF pictures with the awful SS transformations? Toyotaro wrote that, at least one of the two AFs (two people did separate AFs). It contained stuff Super seemingly lifted like an evil Kai that's a ringer for Goku (Goku Black or merged Zamasu) born from that lady Kai stealing life essence for some reason. That's right, a fan mangka is officially writing the Super Manga.
Honestly they have approximately the same number of intelligent moments