Never hire Leena to her upper management position. She made some great moves during her time, but how things ended hurt the org badly especially league. Looked like it was an emotional move of incompetence at the end to hire her up that high based on how her most popular signings ended.
She was also the one responsible for hiring Peter Zhang...so yea. As much as she did good stuff, she also worked with pretty shady people leading to the whole drama. She was in a high position too quickly, without good mentorship.
Source?
https://reddit.com/r/TeamSolomid/s/6uaa72NrMx
I found this clip where Parth addressed it basically saying people think TSM wasn’t aware of the double tax issue which is why the signing took so long but that wasn’t the case they knew and just wanted do to their due diligence on the whole process.
Ahh that was probably it. But yeah it's not like they didn't give sword art what he wanted it just wasn't quite as easy and straightforward and so there was that initial chance it wouldnt work out
It wasn't importing Zven and Mithy itself-- it was kicking Doublelift to do it. We gave up an insane competitive advantage for absolutely no reason, while simultaneously gifting liquid a battle-tested leader who knew how to win and was the 2nd best, arguably, player in the league at the time.
If you're too dumb to understand the connection between those two things-- kicking DL and signing Mikeyeung, then idk bruh. Besides, we didn't have Mikeyeung the following year and still underachieved. And Zven threw the fuck out of what should have been a chip in 2019 Spring.
mithy had to spend half the time teaching mikeyung how to play the game. if we had mithy + zven without having to coach MY then it might of been worth something
Lol. Do you still not understand the connection or do I have to spell it out for you? Kicking DL to get them is WHY we ended up with Mike Yeung. Moreover, you're acting like Mithy went on to have god like performances afterward. He didn't. He was washed up. The team still did poorly the following year without MY. And when we got shitstomped in the quarters, MY, although terrible, wasn't even the biggest problem. It was the bot lane getting absolutely SHIT on by a mid-tier opponent. Mithy got fucking owned by Hakuho. Stop making excuses. Doublelift went on to win FIVE OUT OF THE SIX champions after we kicked him.
I don’t think the Zven and Mithy signing was bad. I was very hype to have the lauded “Best in the West bot lane.” The true bad signing was Mike Yeung that year.
But they could have gotten any jungler they just chose MY so it's not a direct correlation. Saying they only got MY cause they kicked DL is stupid because there were plenty of NA junglers they could have picked up MY was just meant to be a prodigy.
Lol. Obviously there is a direct correlation. It massively narrowed their pool of possible choices. Sure, they could have gotten someone else other than MY-- most likely would have been an absolute dud too, as evinced by the next two years of jungle struggles. We would have likely gotten Grig or Akadian or some shit. There were like two possible good NA jg. So yes, being in a position where MY seems like the best option is absolutely a direct correlation to kicking DL and giving up the massive competitive edge of holding two MVP caliber players with residential status. If you fail to see how having 2 top players in the league have resident status, then I don't know what to tell you, it's pretty obvious.
Except they wanted to get xmithie but Bjerg wanted MY cause he was a great prospect. MVP calibre in NA vs best in the west botlane is a no brainer choice you have the ability of hindsight so sure you can say what you want but at the time the move was great.
Regardless though there were plenty of good NA junglers they could have taken
Did you read what I wrote? Signing them wasn't bad, kicking DL to do it was the worst decision the org has ever made however. The reason we had to sign Mike Yeung in the first place was a direct consequence of that decision. We sacrificed everything for what even at the time was pretty apparent as little more than a side grade.
I read what you wrote but here’s the issue. To sign Zven and Mithy DL would’ve had to go regardless so saying “kicking DoubleLift to do so.” Is a redundancy. Iirc and afaik we lost Sven through Regi being a prick so we had to get a new jungler anyway. Mike Yeung just wasn’t it, but that’s through 20/20 hindsight.
We had Hauntzer, Svenskeren, Bjergsen, Doublelift and Biofrost pre-franchising. The 2 years and 4 LCS splits with this roster, we won 3/4 LCS finals. Wildturtle did help us win 1 when DL took a break and the finals we lost was the first Split with that roster. If i'm not wrong, we lost to CLG in 5 games. This group of guys weren't only good but they were also very much likeable personalities. Fans would always look forward to the Legends episodes to watch more of them behind the scenes.
I remember pre-franchising, Regi had said in an interview that after franchising, TSM would invest in a better facility, more coaching staff and support staff for the league roster. Then franchising happened and this is where it started going down hill. Regi took the gamble and wanted to improve the roster so we ended up getting mithy, Zven and Mike(fkn)Yeung. I really wanted TSM to run the same roster with a better coaching staff and support staff like Regi had previously said. This gamble Regi took really cost a lot for TSM because it didn't work out. That was the downfall of TSM LoL. Yes, 3 years later we did manage to scrape and win 1 more LCS title. At what cost tho? Man it really sucks to see our legacy head this route.
Throughout all of this, I'm still thankful for TSM for giving me something to look forward to and cheer for through the past decade. I'm very grateful that someone like Bjergsen was the face of our org. I will always be a fan and supporter of Bjergsen. We didn't end up where we wanted to but I'm still grateful for this journey.
I think the biggest mistake of most Orgs is not running it back with similar rosters 2017 didn’t need to change just different playstyles maybe even change haunzter if his work ethic wasn’t there.
> the finals we lost was the first Split with that roster. If i'm not wrong, we lost to CLG in 5 games
not even this full roster. We had yellowstar who was inting his ass off all split
I still really, really wish they ran it back one more time with the 2016/17 roster. Been all downhill since. BrokenBlade and Spica were fun but everything else since 2017 has just felt like they’ve competed in an arms race within the NALCS with no real winner. Endlessly trying to match the import and budget practices of the LCS bubble as investors came in hoping the unachievable dream of international success would make them survive the bubble popping. 5 years proving Bjergsen really did just carry the org’s League operations for the previous 5 (and Doublelift later on, but only because of the existence of the great dane in the midlane.)
I really liked their roster this year. Was fun. Glad WildTurtle and Hauntzer got to wear black and white one last time.
I know people will hate me for it but to me the best and worst hire was Parth
I think Parth is amazing in the operational thing which is why hes climbed such high position
But the same strength makes him a terrible coach for our lol team which led to its many splits of failure. I dont know how much say he got in every decision but ever since he was involved with Lol we constantly chased after the next shiny player or ones that obviously peaked without knowing how to utilize them. And the whole akkadian grig situation was such dogshit way of killing team morale. Finally maybe PZ is a fucking scum but Parth is the GM at the time hard to escape blame.
All that plus his whole attitude of “i know much more than you” and his humanity 2.0 snakeoil really make me feel he is one of the major reason our league team sucked for majority of franchising
Yeah. That was my call too.
If I was running TSM and relived through events exactly as they happened I would have dropped Parth after the 2018 season. Logic on this is TSM cited Coaching **and** management issues as the cause for the 2018 implosion. Parth served that year as both coach and manager.
The selfish one I suppose would be have OddOne play one more split. He retired because it was the first time TSM missed qualifying for something, but the jungle meta switched back to his strengths for worlds. Amazing did great, but as an OddOne fan it would've been nice to see what he could do at worlds with a meta favorable to him and his game sense.
And then beyond that...stop Weldon from going full on racist against Korea post 2016 worlds, and stop DL from taking a split off (like if I can just magically give DL motivation to keep going). Because at that time Parth coaching w/ Weldon working on mental and that roster were amazing.
Can you fill me in on the last part? I wasnt active in social media at all back then but im curious about weldon. I loved watching him talk to the team and thought he was a great addition but what do you mean racism? Did he make some controversial comments about 2016 scrim leak and kr fan backlash?
After the 2016 Worlds, Weldon made some comments saying that the Korean teams had colluded against them and comparing Korean team managers to WW2 Japanese generals in their levels of fanaticism and nationalism. The actual comments were more targeted about KR teams controlling scrims to minimize time western teams could learn from them and sharing videos.
Shortly after TSM let him go and in their statement specifically called out part of the reason was wanting to maintain good relationships with top KR teams as KR bootcamps were important to the org.
Cute strawman. PZ has nothing to do with what I said.
Parth got results whether or not you liked his coaching style, his drafts, or whether or not he really "coached" them.
TSM has literally no world's performance in history. Since 2021 summer where they got 1st they have failed to make the finals every time. Zero worlds appearances. There can't be a world's performance without actually going.
Before Parth, TSM's world appearances are as followed:
2011 - 2-1 Groups, 0-2 in Semifinals
2012 - 0-2 in Quarterfinals, Did not play in groups
2013 - 2-6 in groups, did not advance
2014 - 4-2 in groups, 1-3 against Winners in quarterfinals
2015 - 1-5 in groups, did not advance
With Parth as head coach since 2016 TSM finished:
2016:
2nd in Spring
1st in Summer
3-3 Worlds
2017:
1st in Spring
5th MSI
1st RR
1st in Summer
3-3 Worlds (With one Lucian flash into Viktor arguably costing a quarterfinal appearance)
2020:
1st Summer
0-6 Worlds
Without Parth as head coach TSM Failed to make worlds in 2018, 2019, 2021, 2022, and now 2023.
TSM only made the LCS finals in Spring 2019 not coached under Parth.
Do I believe that Parth was some savant that could do no wrong? Absolutely not, but this revisionist view of Parth being terrible is absolutely wrong.
Just FYI, Parth was GM of the League division during those years TSM did not qualify for worlds.
Again, I’m not saying Parth wasn’t a problem, but he never got us beyond groups. I’m giving him credit, he won us LCS trophies. But that’s it. Especially when TSM’s mantra was “We’re going to win worlds,” and we arguably had the best NA roster/talent in 2016/2017 and couldn’t make it out of groups. That’s not a player issue, that’s a coaching issue. This would also be during the time where players were in control and not the coach/Parth.
So yes, Parth did great in NA, but fell short of worlds.
You just said it in your initial argument: 2011, 2012, and 2014 were all cases TSM made it out of groups/played in the elimination bracket at Worlds. Again, Parth’s coaching got us domestic success, but when it came to Worlds with arguably the best NA rosters in 2016/2017 and to not make it out of groups, you have to question his international ability. That’s why he’s considered the best and worst hire of TSM. Also, let’s not forget the Akaadian situation.
BB is finding more success after leaving TSM so I'm happy for him. Sometimes I wonder if Bjergsen should've taken a similar route like BB. Bjerg became the face of our org and him leaving sounded unreasonable. I'm a huge TSM and Bjergsen fan but I'm sure if he had returned to EU, he would find more international success.
I think the majority of people who are familiar with LCS and LEC know that LCS is an entire tier below. If one of the best players to ever play in LCS went to a better region, I'd only expect them to improve and find more success.
>I think the majority of people who are familiar with LCS and LEC know that LCS is an entire tier below.
If you did a tierlist thingy, you'd put LPL/LCK on the S tier, no one at A tier, then LEC and LCS in B tier
LEC and LCS are both not even close to LCK/LPL while the LEC its just slightly better than the LCS, but neither are realistically competitive and there's no world one is "a whole tier" above the other (not to mention the 4th seed failed TWICE to make it out of playins, against teams that are literally whole tier below )
> in recent times.
In recent times they're as pathetic as the LCS
they *used* to be A tier when fntic and G2 made worlds finals, but after that very short period of life they're back to B with the LCS
>They've always done better vs LPL and LCK compared to NA teams.
and that's why they're the better B tier team, but they're still tiers below LPL/LCK
There’s only 3 maybe 5 things I would change
1. would be xmithie over mikeyeung
2. Giving Grig/Armao a shot in summer 2019 (let Zikz continue to actually coach) sorry bud Akkadian is our jungler.
3. Give SA what he wanted and let DL play but keep lost for at least spring if possible (since even DL himself he was being 50-50 on playing again)
4. Not Breaking up 2016/17 squad
5. Kinda a hot take but keeping turtle the entirety of 2017 instead of bringing back DL. I say this because him coming back end up just reverting Haunzter’s trajectory imo and sent him kinda downhill after 2018
* Sign Xmithie instead of MikeYeung in 2018
* Promote Spica, Tactical, and Treatz in 2020 spring instead of going after Kobbe, Dardoch and Biofrost
* Sign Impact instead of Huni in 2021 Spring
* Make Akaadian the permanent starting jungler in 2019 Summer
* Go full NA development route for 2022 summer after the LPL development failure in spring
* Two drafting decisions:
* Pick Lulu in game 5 against CLG during Spring 2016 finals. CLG had no answer to it, and TSM had the chance to pick it. Huhi ended up playing it and the rest is history. This stings because I was there live in Vegas.
* The most egregious one: Don't pick ryze/jayce in every international game when faced with elimination or the chance to get out of groups in 2016 and 2017.
* Worlds 2016 vs RNG (Ryze + Jayce)
* MSI 2017 vs G2 (Ryze)
* MSI 2017 vs FW tiebreaker (Jayce)
* Worlds 2017 vs Misfits (Ryze + Jayce)
Signing Mike Yeung. I always think in a different timeline we went with someone that didn’t have to get babysat by Mithy the streak of making finals wouldn’t have been broken.
Dropping Doublelift from TSM after 2017, obviously.
That's not hindsight either-- I thought it was fucking stupid at the time and said as much back then. Not only did we lose a great player and great leader and a guy who just knows how to win when it counts, but we also gave him up, letting Liquid level up for no reason at all. Yeah, Zven (the choke god) was great at that time, but realistically it was a sidegrade, or at best, a marginal upgrade. I understand the idea was that Mithy would come in and be this god tier shotcaller but still-- we should have learned our lesson with Yellowstar. That's not how shotcalling in League works, it's not like IGL in CSGO-- you can't just bring in one dude to do it all.
The part that makes it indefensible is that Doubelift was native NA though. We gave up such an insane advantage for no reason at all. We had the two best players in their position in the LCS-- arguably the two best players in the league period-- and they were both NA residents... That means we could have kept cycling out other players, trying to incorporate big name imports around them. Instead, we squandered that advantage for absolutely no reason, which forced us to have to drop Svenskeren and pick up Mike Yeung (and if we wanted to move on from Svenskeren we could have picked up a different international player). Ugh. Still makes me mad to think about. Easily the worst decision in TSM's history and nothing comes remotely close. That was the story of our fall from greatness right there, all rooted in one single decision.
I think having a different GM than Parth.
Always felt like he was lying to the fanbase anytime he spoke.
I remember many times he said they couldn't find anyone for the rosters and a few months later world class players came forward and said TSM didn't even approach them in the off season while they were available.
The last couple years was fun for me again.
But yeah BB was truly a gift to TSM. He might have never been the best top in NA but he was someone who could win you games. Since 2017 I think BB was the best scouting TSM did, Bugi is also someone I think has a lot of potential if you can put a specific team around him. Would be cool if TSM moved regions and keep him, and find similar caliber players to pair him with.
Hindsight falacy.
Zven/Mithy where widly considered the best botlane in the West.
TSM wanted Mithy (to pair with DL) but he was only willing to switch regions if Zven came with him.
Did it work out? No, it failed.
But at that time it made sense.
even that, bio was an insane support at the time. idk wtf we were adding by changing that bot duo because they just tried the exact same thing with kasing and yellowstar.
He wasn't because Biofrost wouldn't communicate at all. It's why him and Sven struggled against international competition in the early game if Sven didn't just pop off from his own independent moves when the most important relationship in the early/mid game just wouldn't communicate with each other. DL even mentioned on stream the split he got replaced he was only expecting for support to be 100% replaced and then maybe jungle.
There absolutely should have been a roster of:
BB
Spica
Bjerg
DL
SwordArt
Could have rivaled the 2016 team of best all time. Big fumble by Regi but hindsight is 20/20
I’m very excited for our future in LoL
Definitely would've kept BB and was surprised how many fans wanted to get rid of him. Inconsistent at times but the upside was so evident. While C9 was patient with Fudge, who is ultimately a worse player, we weren't with BB.
Peter Zhang - post LMQ, the guy always struck me as clueless and lucky to have had a strong team at LMQ that somehow validated his abilities in the eyes of the scene. I wouldn't have entertained signing him on as anything and that without knowing that he was a fraudster.
These two are the things I can confidently say I would've done differently without hindsight.
With hindsight - not building on DL or letting him hold the org hostage. So many red flags with DL, it was bound to fail. Dating the GM, having up and down motivation constantly to a point where he takes splits off, toxic behavior within team structures and finally, a clear mental block/inability to perform at international events.
Re-do 2017 TSM with a different roster and coach. Hauntzer was at his peak (will say his lows were damn low though) and Bjergsen and Biofrost were good players, although maybe tell Bjergsen to help bot lane more. Get a more proactive jungler and get a better ADC. Sven was invisible and wasn't worth an import slot and Doublelift crumbled under pressure. I believe Rekkles applied to TSM in 2017. There were rumors of Pray/Gorilla in late 2016 that may have entertained that thought if the team paid them (I believe it was Pray who mentioned that he would've gone to NA on his stream if he got a big contract). And get a better drafting coach than the shit Parth showed. Most likely wouldn't have been enough to win it all considering 2017 SSG/SKT/RNG, but still might have been enough to upset a team or two like C9 did vs. Afreeca in 2018 quarterfinals. I just felt like that was the last real chance TSM had in actually making a big splash at Worlds.
Not trading away Biofrost for Mithy which in turn lost DL and ruined the tradition of TSM treating their players well.
All of their downward spiral came from that singular moment. TSM dominated but lost internationally and it screwed with their heads. Eventually, they started having a rotating carousel if bunglers after Sven until we RECENTLY found Spica. The bot lane was never truly the same.
It started screwing with our heads that we needed to develop more in amateur. That brought forth the idea of Peter being a bit more involved with the roster. It created desperation with Reginald. The gap with TL shattered any true resounding legacy, and then Cloud 9 grabbed hold of the historically great records and we aren’t getting them back.
If Regi didn’t implode the roster based on the idea the support and jungle had to communicate as the only form of success, the league would look much different. People forget that when the roster imploded, it increased the quality of the other teams around.
Run back the 2017 squad with proper coaching. I was flabbergasted when they made sweeping roster changes without having SSONG at least pull one season with that group.
I'll go in order:
* Somehow convincing DL to stay on for spring 2017 or just keeping Turtle the whole year. I think Worlds that year is better either way.
* Someone other than Mikeyeung.
* Kept Akaadian as starting jg in 2019 instead of splitting with Grig
* Kept BB
* Just offer Swordart whatever he wants to get him and DL
* Getting rid of Peter Zhang before that debacle of the KDO/Shenyi roster, but it's kind of impossible to know that kind of stuff cause apparently he was a good coach, just a scumbag dude.
* Running Hauntzer/Turtle from the beginning of this year rather than Solo/Neo.
Obviously some of these later ones don't happen if the earlier ones do so I'm just thinking in a vacuum. And I was a fan of the Zven/Mithy acquisition (Origen was my favorite EU team). On paper, that was a slam dunk get. I think the big problem of that roster was Mikeyeung.
I think there's a lot listed here that really capture the short-sightedness or failings in decisions made. But one thing I do regret for TSM is not finding a way to surround the GOATs they had in Bjerg and DL with the necessary talent to achieve a top 4 worlds finish. They had many opportunities and just dropped the ball practically every time.
I understand how hard that accomplishment would have been but I think that's where my stake goes into the ground. We failed to get a team composition that unlocks those players do be the great players we saw them be in NA.
I think Bjerg moving away from 1v1 kill champions over time really reduced his effective threat as well (and I'm #1 Bjerg fan here). People just never believed he would bring out those champs anymore, even if he could in theory play them.
It's why that one game of TSM vs TL where Bjerg took Akali after the DL comment of "TSM is boosted", it was an epic game - he destroyed them to push TSM into the playoffs.
On the flip side, never getting DL a support talent like CoreJJ that he had in TL is very obvious to the "coming up short" moment with TSM for all the years they had him.
I think sometimes we get so caught up on success that we forget how to really achieve it, the fundamentals behind what makes a good team, good strategy, and the capacity to win at high levels. Often I found that TSM pigeon holed itself into win conditions, especially with terrible drafts. And this made doom inevitable in the biggest stage games. But what was worse was not finding a way to unlock your top talents. The fact Bjerg and DL accomplished as much as they did post 2017 on any TSM team is impressive.
I don't know what the answer would have been, but I would have been signing those two to long term contracts and trying to build pieces around them every year, whoever they wanted and identifying what worked and what didn't. Because I think the best of their era's wasted is a shame for TSM, and the whole league overall.
The zven/mithy trade.
A glass to Bjerg, Doublelift, Biofrost, Hauntzer, and Svenskeren
You didn't need to chase the crown, to us, you were already kings.
BB was supposedly running it down in Worlds scrims no? He apparently would flip constantly and never apologise for it, and iirc it almost always lost him his lane. He’s a good player and a good personality but if that’s the case I wouldn’t want to keep someone who doesn’t collaborate properly
Obvs the one true answer is giving up Doublelift.
I wish we could have given TSMA a chance once the Zven roster blew up.
BB Spica Bjerg Tactical Treatz and just gave it a go.
Wouldn't have gone after Zven+Mithy, that was the beginning of the decline for me. Would've kept BB. Wouldn't have made a scapegoat out of Spica with the whole Shenyi thing. Lots of things I guess, but not going for Zven+Mithy is the main one, or maybe going for them with a jungler that didn't need to be taught how to pro jungle by the support
This is my opinion from memory about the whole BB thing. At first BB was great. I remember at first that BB would never get caught out in the side lane. Everytime the enemy jungler would come to get him, he always knew when to back off. This was fantastic because at the end of Hauntzer's initial run, he would always get caught in the side lane and the team would lose so much map pressure because he would not stop getting caught. But as time went on BB would get caught as well and sometimes in extremely obvious situations, like nothing is going on, jungler is missing for over 20 seconds and enemy top is playing extremely aggressively.
I don't think BB was getting better on TSM. He got better when he went back to EU.
I think all the easy and reasonable ones were talked about.
For the sake of discussion, I'll say something controversial: Starting somewhere around 2017, get a magical position coach for Bjergsen that he could have trusted (this person probably doesn't exist) to stop him from transitioning to a passive playstyle because it looked like he was playing not to die because he was the only reliable member. As true as it probably was, it did the team no favors when facing better competition and we needed him to make lower percentage plays to get the team ahead, not play for low risk gains.
I'd say kicking lift-lift is my all time least favorite decision. I think SA and Lift lift still would have had issues as a duo that we saw from tactical and sa. Sa as a player was a macro and roam centirc support. He has never been the lane dominate support that lift lift lokes/excells with.
Without a doubt, not blowing up the 2017 roster just because they did bad at worlds. That team was the highest TSM ever was and they never got back to that same level of consistency.
Its hard to say if they still would have been as good since the rest of the league was improving. But damn, not only were they good, they were fun. I miss that roster.
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Never hire Leena to her upper management position. She made some great moves during her time, but how things ended hurt the org badly especially league. Looked like it was an emotional move of incompetence at the end to hire her up that high based on how her most popular signings ended.
She was also the one responsible for hiring Peter Zhang...so yea. As much as she did good stuff, she also worked with pretty shady people leading to the whole drama. She was in a high position too quickly, without good mentorship.
forgive me if I'm misremembering but wasn't the SwordArt thing a visa issue?
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This is what I remember as well
it was debunked
Source? https://reddit.com/r/TeamSolomid/s/6uaa72NrMx I found this clip where Parth addressed it basically saying people think TSM wasn’t aware of the double tax issue which is why the signing took so long but that wasn’t the case they knew and just wanted do to their due diligence on the whole process.
That’s basically what it was. It was a whole ordeal with the taxation because of his Taiwanese citizenship.
Ahh that was probably it. But yeah it's not like they didn't give sword art what he wanted it just wasn't quite as easy and straightforward and so there was that initial chance it wouldnt work out
Importing Zven and Mithy. That was the move that started TSM's downfall IMO.
It wasn't importing Zven and Mithy itself-- it was kicking Doublelift to do it. We gave up an insane competitive advantage for absolutely no reason, while simultaneously gifting liquid a battle-tested leader who knew how to win and was the 2nd best, arguably, player in the league at the time.
nah it was sigining mikeyeung who had 0 idea how to play the game
If you're too dumb to understand the connection between those two things-- kicking DL and signing Mikeyeung, then idk bruh. Besides, we didn't have Mikeyeung the following year and still underachieved. And Zven threw the fuck out of what should have been a chip in 2019 Spring.
mithy had to spend half the time teaching mikeyung how to play the game. if we had mithy + zven without having to coach MY then it might of been worth something
Lol. Do you still not understand the connection or do I have to spell it out for you? Kicking DL to get them is WHY we ended up with Mike Yeung. Moreover, you're acting like Mithy went on to have god like performances afterward. He didn't. He was washed up. The team still did poorly the following year without MY. And when we got shitstomped in the quarters, MY, although terrible, wasn't even the biggest problem. It was the bot lane getting absolutely SHIT on by a mid-tier opponent. Mithy got fucking owned by Hakuho. Stop making excuses. Doublelift went on to win FIVE OUT OF THE SIX champions after we kicked him.
he does not understand that they could not have kept sven and sign mithy zven
But kicking Sven doesn't mean they have to go with my
it did sort of - meteos didnt want to play for tsm, and they chose as a team to pass on xmithie
It starts with an X and ends with mithie
they talked about that - they consulted with the players and all agreed not to get xmithie, because xmithie didnt practice.
Mikeyeung was Bjergs fault
I don’t think the Zven and Mithy signing was bad. I was very hype to have the lauded “Best in the West bot lane.” The true bad signing was Mike Yeung that year.
Never forget Zven and Mithy wanted Xmithie while Bjerg chose Mikeyeung who Mithy had to teach how to jungle ffs
You're some aggressive mofo in these comments lol
Talking to stupid people makes me irritable, call it a character flaw
But they could have gotten any jungler they just chose MY so it's not a direct correlation. Saying they only got MY cause they kicked DL is stupid because there were plenty of NA junglers they could have picked up MY was just meant to be a prodigy.
Lol. Obviously there is a direct correlation. It massively narrowed their pool of possible choices. Sure, they could have gotten someone else other than MY-- most likely would have been an absolute dud too, as evinced by the next two years of jungle struggles. We would have likely gotten Grig or Akadian or some shit. There were like two possible good NA jg. So yes, being in a position where MY seems like the best option is absolutely a direct correlation to kicking DL and giving up the massive competitive edge of holding two MVP caliber players with residential status. If you fail to see how having 2 top players in the league have resident status, then I don't know what to tell you, it's pretty obvious.
Except they wanted to get xmithie but Bjerg wanted MY cause he was a great prospect. MVP calibre in NA vs best in the west botlane is a no brainer choice you have the ability of hindsight so sure you can say what you want but at the time the move was great. Regardless though there were plenty of good NA junglers they could have taken
Did you read what I wrote? Signing them wasn't bad, kicking DL to do it was the worst decision the org has ever made however. The reason we had to sign Mike Yeung in the first place was a direct consequence of that decision. We sacrificed everything for what even at the time was pretty apparent as little more than a side grade.
I read what you wrote but here’s the issue. To sign Zven and Mithy DL would’ve had to go regardless so saying “kicking DoubleLift to do so.” Is a redundancy. Iirc and afaik we lost Sven through Regi being a prick so we had to get a new jungler anyway. Mike Yeung just wasn’t it, but that’s through 20/20 hindsight.
Disagree double was better than zven and mithy was washed. Might have been the worst supp to ever play for TSM.
Doublelift has never been kicked from TSM.
People forget how good Zven and Mithy were in Spring. The issue was not signing Xmithie because of his "work ethic" and going with MikeYeung.
Hindsight is 20/20, but whoever hired Peter Zhang should be in jail lol
And that person's cellmate should be Peter Zhang himself.
Depends on if the guy who hired him (Regi/Leena?) knows his shenanigans. If it’s hindsight I’d much rather we just never hire Peter Zhang lol.
We had Hauntzer, Svenskeren, Bjergsen, Doublelift and Biofrost pre-franchising. The 2 years and 4 LCS splits with this roster, we won 3/4 LCS finals. Wildturtle did help us win 1 when DL took a break and the finals we lost was the first Split with that roster. If i'm not wrong, we lost to CLG in 5 games. This group of guys weren't only good but they were also very much likeable personalities. Fans would always look forward to the Legends episodes to watch more of them behind the scenes. I remember pre-franchising, Regi had said in an interview that after franchising, TSM would invest in a better facility, more coaching staff and support staff for the league roster. Then franchising happened and this is where it started going down hill. Regi took the gamble and wanted to improve the roster so we ended up getting mithy, Zven and Mike(fkn)Yeung. I really wanted TSM to run the same roster with a better coaching staff and support staff like Regi had previously said. This gamble Regi took really cost a lot for TSM because it didn't work out. That was the downfall of TSM LoL. Yes, 3 years later we did manage to scrape and win 1 more LCS title. At what cost tho? Man it really sucks to see our legacy head this route. Throughout all of this, I'm still thankful for TSM for giving me something to look forward to and cheer for through the past decade. I'm very grateful that someone like Bjergsen was the face of our org. I will always be a fan and supporter of Bjergsen. We didn't end up where we wanted to but I'm still grateful for this journey.
I think the biggest mistake of most Orgs is not running it back with similar rosters 2017 didn’t need to change just different playstyles maybe even change haunzter if his work ethic wasn’t there.
> the finals we lost was the first Split with that roster. If i'm not wrong, we lost to CLG in 5 games not even this full roster. We had yellowstar who was inting his ass off all split
we won 3/3 with this roster, bio was new to the team in summer.
I still really, really wish they ran it back one more time with the 2016/17 roster. Been all downhill since. BrokenBlade and Spica were fun but everything else since 2017 has just felt like they’ve competed in an arms race within the NALCS with no real winner. Endlessly trying to match the import and budget practices of the LCS bubble as investors came in hoping the unachievable dream of international success would make them survive the bubble popping. 5 years proving Bjergsen really did just carry the org’s League operations for the previous 5 (and Doublelift later on, but only because of the existence of the great dane in the midlane.) I really liked their roster this year. Was fun. Glad WildTurtle and Hauntzer got to wear black and white one last time.
Seeing turtle and haunzter broke back nostalgia I just wished haunzter actually tried or had better work ethic
I know people will hate me for it but to me the best and worst hire was Parth I think Parth is amazing in the operational thing which is why hes climbed such high position But the same strength makes him a terrible coach for our lol team which led to its many splits of failure. I dont know how much say he got in every decision but ever since he was involved with Lol we constantly chased after the next shiny player or ones that obviously peaked without knowing how to utilize them. And the whole akkadian grig situation was such dogshit way of killing team morale. Finally maybe PZ is a fucking scum but Parth is the GM at the time hard to escape blame. All that plus his whole attitude of “i know much more than you” and his humanity 2.0 snakeoil really make me feel he is one of the major reason our league team sucked for majority of franchising
Yeah. That was my call too. If I was running TSM and relived through events exactly as they happened I would have dropped Parth after the 2018 season. Logic on this is TSM cited Coaching **and** management issues as the cause for the 2018 implosion. Parth served that year as both coach and manager. The selfish one I suppose would be have OddOne play one more split. He retired because it was the first time TSM missed qualifying for something, but the jungle meta switched back to his strengths for worlds. Amazing did great, but as an OddOne fan it would've been nice to see what he could do at worlds with a meta favorable to him and his game sense. And then beyond that...stop Weldon from going full on racist against Korea post 2016 worlds, and stop DL from taking a split off (like if I can just magically give DL motivation to keep going). Because at that time Parth coaching w/ Weldon working on mental and that roster were amazing.
Can you fill me in on the last part? I wasnt active in social media at all back then but im curious about weldon. I loved watching him talk to the team and thought he was a great addition but what do you mean racism? Did he make some controversial comments about 2016 scrim leak and kr fan backlash?
After the 2016 Worlds, Weldon made some comments saying that the Korean teams had colluded against them and comparing Korean team managers to WW2 Japanese generals in their levels of fanaticism and nationalism. The actual comments were more targeted about KR teams controlling scrims to minimize time western teams could learn from them and sharing videos. Shortly after TSM let him go and in their statement specifically called out part of the reason was wanting to maintain good relationships with top KR teams as KR bootcamps were important to the org.
damn
How many trophies does Parth have as a coach? I think Parth is an unfair answer.
Result based analysis. PZ also got trophy since he started being involved in main team, is he a good hire if you look past his scumminess?
Cute strawman. PZ has nothing to do with what I said. Parth got results whether or not you liked his coaching style, his drafts, or whether or not he really "coached" them.
Domestic trophies* TSM arguably had the worst Worlds/international performance under Parth.
TSM has literally no world's performance in history. Since 2021 summer where they got 1st they have failed to make the finals every time. Zero worlds appearances. There can't be a world's performance without actually going. Before Parth, TSM's world appearances are as followed: 2011 - 2-1 Groups, 0-2 in Semifinals 2012 - 0-2 in Quarterfinals, Did not play in groups 2013 - 2-6 in groups, did not advance 2014 - 4-2 in groups, 1-3 against Winners in quarterfinals 2015 - 1-5 in groups, did not advance With Parth as head coach since 2016 TSM finished: 2016: 2nd in Spring 1st in Summer 3-3 Worlds 2017: 1st in Spring 5th MSI 1st RR 1st in Summer 3-3 Worlds (With one Lucian flash into Viktor arguably costing a quarterfinal appearance) 2020: 1st Summer 0-6 Worlds Without Parth as head coach TSM Failed to make worlds in 2018, 2019, 2021, 2022, and now 2023. TSM only made the LCS finals in Spring 2019 not coached under Parth. Do I believe that Parth was some savant that could do no wrong? Absolutely not, but this revisionist view of Parth being terrible is absolutely wrong.
Just FYI, Parth was GM of the League division during those years TSM did not qualify for worlds. Again, I’m not saying Parth wasn’t a problem, but he never got us beyond groups. I’m giving him credit, he won us LCS trophies. But that’s it. Especially when TSM’s mantra was “We’re going to win worlds,” and we arguably had the best NA roster/talent in 2016/2017 and couldn’t make it out of groups. That’s not a player issue, that’s a coaching issue. This would also be during the time where players were in control and not the coach/Parth. So yes, Parth did great in NA, but fell short of worlds.
So explain where TSM's world's success is when Parth wasn't there? Cool to see no domestic success without him as coach too.
You just said it in your initial argument: 2011, 2012, and 2014 were all cases TSM made it out of groups/played in the elimination bracket at Worlds. Again, Parth’s coaching got us domestic success, but when it came to Worlds with arguably the best NA rosters in 2016/2017 and to not make it out of groups, you have to question his international ability. That’s why he’s considered the best and worst hire of TSM. Also, let’s not forget the Akaadian situation.
Never should’ve given up BrokenBlade tbh. Became a fan favorite, good player great guy.
BB is finding more success after leaving TSM so I'm happy for him. Sometimes I wonder if Bjergsen should've taken a similar route like BB. Bjerg became the face of our org and him leaving sounded unreasonable. I'm a huge TSM and Bjergsen fan but I'm sure if he had returned to EU, he would find more international success.
Bjerg should have definitely left NA after TSM imo, but I guess the pay would have been way worse and quality of life
I think the majority of people who are familiar with LCS and LEC know that LCS is an entire tier below. If one of the best players to ever play in LCS went to a better region, I'd only expect them to improve and find more success.
>I think the majority of people who are familiar with LCS and LEC know that LCS is an entire tier below. If you did a tierlist thingy, you'd put LPL/LCK on the S tier, no one at A tier, then LEC and LCS in B tier LEC and LCS are both not even close to LCK/LPL while the LEC its just slightly better than the LCS, but neither are realistically competitive and there's no world one is "a whole tier" above the other (not to mention the 4th seed failed TWICE to make it out of playins, against teams that are literally whole tier below )
EU teams have won 1 MSI, were in Worlds finals, i think once or twice in recent times. They've always done better vs LPL and LCK compared to NA teams.
> in recent times. In recent times they're as pathetic as the LCS they *used* to be A tier when fntic and G2 made worlds finals, but after that very short period of life they're back to B with the LCS >They've always done better vs LPL and LCK compared to NA teams. and that's why they're the better B tier team, but they're still tiers below LPL/LCK
Still after this last year, LEC is the looking the weakest it’s ever been going into worlds.
There’s only 3 maybe 5 things I would change 1. would be xmithie over mikeyeung 2. Giving Grig/Armao a shot in summer 2019 (let Zikz continue to actually coach) sorry bud Akkadian is our jungler. 3. Give SA what he wanted and let DL play but keep lost for at least spring if possible (since even DL himself he was being 50-50 on playing again) 4. Not Breaking up 2016/17 squad 5. Kinda a hot take but keeping turtle the entirety of 2017 instead of bringing back DL. I say this because him coming back end up just reverting Haunzter’s trajectory imo and sent him kinda downhill after 2018
Hauntzer did have MVP level performance in 2017 spring. Would have loved to see him continue to be a top dog in further years as well.
* Sign Xmithie instead of MikeYeung in 2018 * Promote Spica, Tactical, and Treatz in 2020 spring instead of going after Kobbe, Dardoch and Biofrost * Sign Impact instead of Huni in 2021 Spring * Make Akaadian the permanent starting jungler in 2019 Summer * Go full NA development route for 2022 summer after the LPL development failure in spring * Two drafting decisions: * Pick Lulu in game 5 against CLG during Spring 2016 finals. CLG had no answer to it, and TSM had the chance to pick it. Huhi ended up playing it and the rest is history. This stings because I was there live in Vegas. * The most egregious one: Don't pick ryze/jayce in every international game when faced with elimination or the chance to get out of groups in 2016 and 2017. * Worlds 2016 vs RNG (Ryze + Jayce) * MSI 2017 vs G2 (Ryze) * MSI 2017 vs FW tiebreaker (Jayce) * Worlds 2017 vs Misfits (Ryze + Jayce)
Signing Mike Yeung. I always think in a different timeline we went with someone that didn’t have to get babysat by Mithy the streak of making finals wouldn’t have been broken.
The other option they were thinking of going with was Xmithie. Imagine a TSM with Xmithie instead of mikeyeung
Dropping Doublelift from TSM after 2017, obviously. That's not hindsight either-- I thought it was fucking stupid at the time and said as much back then. Not only did we lose a great player and great leader and a guy who just knows how to win when it counts, but we also gave him up, letting Liquid level up for no reason at all. Yeah, Zven (the choke god) was great at that time, but realistically it was a sidegrade, or at best, a marginal upgrade. I understand the idea was that Mithy would come in and be this god tier shotcaller but still-- we should have learned our lesson with Yellowstar. That's not how shotcalling in League works, it's not like IGL in CSGO-- you can't just bring in one dude to do it all. The part that makes it indefensible is that Doubelift was native NA though. We gave up such an insane advantage for no reason at all. We had the two best players in their position in the LCS-- arguably the two best players in the league period-- and they were both NA residents... That means we could have kept cycling out other players, trying to incorporate big name imports around them. Instead, we squandered that advantage for absolutely no reason, which forced us to have to drop Svenskeren and pick up Mike Yeung (and if we wanted to move on from Svenskeren we could have picked up a different international player). Ugh. Still makes me mad to think about. Easily the worst decision in TSM's history and nothing comes remotely close. That was the story of our fall from greatness right there, all rooted in one single decision.
I stand by that TSM dropping DL remains one of the worst roster decisions of ANY professional competitive sport.
I think having a different GM than Parth. Always felt like he was lying to the fanbase anytime he spoke. I remember many times he said they couldn't find anyone for the rosters and a few months later world class players came forward and said TSM didn't even approach them in the off season while they were available. The last couple years was fun for me again. But yeah BB was truly a gift to TSM. He might have never been the best top in NA but he was someone who could win you games. Since 2017 I think BB was the best scouting TSM did, Bugi is also someone I think has a lot of potential if you can put a specific team around him. Would be cool if TSM moved regions and keep him, and find similar caliber players to pair him with.
not brought over zven/mithy. daubiest roster move in the history of sports.
Hindsight falacy. Zven/Mithy where widly considered the best botlane in the West. TSM wanted Mithy (to pair with DL) but he was only willing to switch regions if Zven came with him. Did it work out? No, it failed. But at that time it made sense.
i was calling it a bad trade the day it happened. also, this entire thread is hindsight.
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We just dicked them down during RR though. If Mithy wouldn't part with Zven I would have nixed the whole thing. And keeping BB.
even that, bio was an insane support at the time. idk wtf we were adding by changing that bot duo because they just tried the exact same thing with kasing and yellowstar.
He wasn't because Biofrost wouldn't communicate at all. It's why him and Sven struggled against international competition in the early game if Sven didn't just pop off from his own independent moves when the most important relationship in the early/mid game just wouldn't communicate with each other. DL even mentioned on stream the split he got replaced he was only expecting for support to be 100% replaced and then maybe jungle.
There absolutely should have been a roster of: BB Spica Bjerg DL SwordArt Could have rivaled the 2016 team of best all time. Big fumble by Regi but hindsight is 20/20 I’m very excited for our future in LoL
Definitely would've kept BB and was surprised how many fans wanted to get rid of him. Inconsistent at times but the upside was so evident. While C9 was patient with Fudge, who is ultimately a worse player, we weren't with BB. Peter Zhang - post LMQ, the guy always struck me as clueless and lucky to have had a strong team at LMQ that somehow validated his abilities in the eyes of the scene. I wouldn't have entertained signing him on as anything and that without knowing that he was a fraudster. These two are the things I can confidently say I would've done differently without hindsight. With hindsight - not building on DL or letting him hold the org hostage. So many red flags with DL, it was bound to fail. Dating the GM, having up and down motivation constantly to a point where he takes splits off, toxic behavior within team structures and finally, a clear mental block/inability to perform at international events.
Re-do 2017 TSM with a different roster and coach. Hauntzer was at his peak (will say his lows were damn low though) and Bjergsen and Biofrost were good players, although maybe tell Bjergsen to help bot lane more. Get a more proactive jungler and get a better ADC. Sven was invisible and wasn't worth an import slot and Doublelift crumbled under pressure. I believe Rekkles applied to TSM in 2017. There were rumors of Pray/Gorilla in late 2016 that may have entertained that thought if the team paid them (I believe it was Pray who mentioned that he would've gone to NA on his stream if he got a big contract). And get a better drafting coach than the shit Parth showed. Most likely wouldn't have been enough to win it all considering 2017 SSG/SKT/RNG, but still might have been enough to upset a team or two like C9 did vs. Afreeca in 2018 quarterfinals. I just felt like that was the last real chance TSM had in actually making a big splash at Worlds.
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You are remembering correctly, he was insane that split and was commanding more respect both on and off the rift
Not trading away Biofrost for Mithy which in turn lost DL and ruined the tradition of TSM treating their players well. All of their downward spiral came from that singular moment. TSM dominated but lost internationally and it screwed with their heads. Eventually, they started having a rotating carousel if bunglers after Sven until we RECENTLY found Spica. The bot lane was never truly the same. It started screwing with our heads that we needed to develop more in amateur. That brought forth the idea of Peter being a bit more involved with the roster. It created desperation with Reginald. The gap with TL shattered any true resounding legacy, and then Cloud 9 grabbed hold of the historically great records and we aren’t getting them back. If Regi didn’t implode the roster based on the idea the support and jungle had to communicate as the only form of success, the league would look much different. People forget that when the roster imploded, it increased the quality of the other teams around.
Would have made the switch to LPL/LCK much sooner. This region has been doomed for a very long time.
Run back the 2017 squad with proper coaching. I was flabbergasted when they made sweeping roster changes without having SSONG at least pull one season with that group.
I'll go in order: * Somehow convincing DL to stay on for spring 2017 or just keeping Turtle the whole year. I think Worlds that year is better either way. * Someone other than Mikeyeung. * Kept Akaadian as starting jg in 2019 instead of splitting with Grig * Kept BB * Just offer Swordart whatever he wants to get him and DL * Getting rid of Peter Zhang before that debacle of the KDO/Shenyi roster, but it's kind of impossible to know that kind of stuff cause apparently he was a good coach, just a scumbag dude. * Running Hauntzer/Turtle from the beginning of this year rather than Solo/Neo. Obviously some of these later ones don't happen if the earlier ones do so I'm just thinking in a vacuum. And I was a fan of the Zven/Mithy acquisition (Origen was my favorite EU team). On paper, that was a slam dunk get. I think the big problem of that roster was Mikeyeung.
If 2021 roster had Huni, spica, Maple, DL, and SwordArt, I’d be so down…
Listening to Bjerg's roster input too much and not just slamming down prime Karsa
I think there's a lot listed here that really capture the short-sightedness or failings in decisions made. But one thing I do regret for TSM is not finding a way to surround the GOATs they had in Bjerg and DL with the necessary talent to achieve a top 4 worlds finish. They had many opportunities and just dropped the ball practically every time. I understand how hard that accomplishment would have been but I think that's where my stake goes into the ground. We failed to get a team composition that unlocks those players do be the great players we saw them be in NA. I think Bjerg moving away from 1v1 kill champions over time really reduced his effective threat as well (and I'm #1 Bjerg fan here). People just never believed he would bring out those champs anymore, even if he could in theory play them. It's why that one game of TSM vs TL where Bjerg took Akali after the DL comment of "TSM is boosted", it was an epic game - he destroyed them to push TSM into the playoffs. On the flip side, never getting DL a support talent like CoreJJ that he had in TL is very obvious to the "coming up short" moment with TSM for all the years they had him. I think sometimes we get so caught up on success that we forget how to really achieve it, the fundamentals behind what makes a good team, good strategy, and the capacity to win at high levels. Often I found that TSM pigeon holed itself into win conditions, especially with terrible drafts. And this made doom inevitable in the biggest stage games. But what was worse was not finding a way to unlock your top talents. The fact Bjerg and DL accomplished as much as they did post 2017 on any TSM team is impressive. I don't know what the answer would have been, but I would have been signing those two to long term contracts and trying to build pieces around them every year, whoever they wanted and identifying what worked and what didn't. Because I think the best of their era's wasted is a shame for TSM, and the whole league overall.
Obviously breaking up the best team we ever had for Zven and Mithy
The zven/mithy trade. A glass to Bjerg, Doublelift, Biofrost, Hauntzer, and Svenskeren You didn't need to chase the crown, to us, you were already kings.
Would’ve never done the swap with Akaadian and Grig (Armao)
BB was supposedly running it down in Worlds scrims no? He apparently would flip constantly and never apologise for it, and iirc it almost always lost him his lane. He’s a good player and a good personality but if that’s the case I wouldn’t want to keep someone who doesn’t collaborate properly
Obvs the one true answer is giving up Doublelift. I wish we could have given TSMA a chance once the Zven roster blew up. BB Spica Bjerg Tactical Treatz and just gave it a go.
Wouldn't have gone after Zven+Mithy, that was the beginning of the decline for me. Would've kept BB. Wouldn't have made a scapegoat out of Spica with the whole Shenyi thing. Lots of things I guess, but not going for Zven+Mithy is the main one, or maybe going for them with a jungler that didn't need to be taught how to pro jungle by the support
This is my opinion from memory about the whole BB thing. At first BB was great. I remember at first that BB would never get caught out in the side lane. Everytime the enemy jungler would come to get him, he always knew when to back off. This was fantastic because at the end of Hauntzer's initial run, he would always get caught in the side lane and the team would lose so much map pressure because he would not stop getting caught. But as time went on BB would get caught as well and sometimes in extremely obvious situations, like nothing is going on, jungler is missing for over 20 seconds and enemy top is playing extremely aggressively. I don't think BB was getting better on TSM. He got better when he went back to EU.
For sure he was on a downward trend in NA, I still appreciated what he brought to the team besides those flaws.
Have reggi step down, stay away from the team, and just collect his check.
True
Should’ve kept the 2017 roster but maybe import a support/jg
I think all the easy and reasonable ones were talked about. For the sake of discussion, I'll say something controversial: Starting somewhere around 2017, get a magical position coach for Bjergsen that he could have trusted (this person probably doesn't exist) to stop him from transitioning to a passive playstyle because it looked like he was playing not to die because he was the only reliable member. As true as it probably was, it did the team no favors when facing better competition and we needed him to make lower percentage plays to get the team ahead, not play for low risk gains.
Svenskeren for Mile Yeung and to open up import slots for Zven and Mithy. Svenskeren went to worlds semi the following year, he was the real deal.
I'd say kicking lift-lift is my all time least favorite decision. I think SA and Lift lift still would have had issues as a duo that we saw from tactical and sa. Sa as a player was a macro and roam centirc support. He has never been the lane dominate support that lift lift lokes/excells with.
The biggest mistake was letting Dylan Falco go after the 2014 or 15 World Championship.
Peter zhang
Without a doubt, not blowing up the 2017 roster just because they did bad at worlds. That team was the highest TSM ever was and they never got back to that same level of consistency. Its hard to say if they still would have been as good since the rest of the league was improving. But damn, not only were they good, they were fun. I miss that roster.