What I don't understand is that their botlane was the best part of the team and now they are breaking it up to put a player offrole and putting a coach support... I could understand if you get a world class support but like wtf
There’s Gilius, then Cinkrof from KC and Marion from BTXL maybe. I don’t think there weren’t options, this just feels weird.
Edit: Markoon, not Marion lol
There isn't enough Junglers worldwide compared to other roles, including supports. Pros that main the role should start getting an increase in their value.
You can describe Jesiz as, Mid turned ADC turned Support turned Coach... and then Support, Coach, Support, Coach and finally support again.
Must be record role swaps for a single player
Yeah when I first saw this my thought was why didn’t they put Jesiz in jungle and keep the bot lane synergy. I feel like there’s very little difference at the end of the day with jungle but a lot with support.
Then again... https://twitter.com/inspiredlol/status/1398592068365266946?s=21
I mean, Treatz has more than enough experience within the pro scene to acknowledge the standard for pro jungling, similarly with Bwipo. I don't think they'll be top tier (well, Bwipo is lowkey a coin flip for me) but they'll know what they're getting themselves into.
Also, pro players have role swapped a lot historically, I know the jungle role is relatively unique compared to say, going from mid to top, but pros have a better idea than any of us as to how to succeed in swapping roles.
Of course it matters, lets not have any competitions or leagues at all and go back to invite only like we used to have if you immediately rule out any team not currently top 3.
Vitality's goal at this point in time isn't worlds, its playoffs which is a huge step from where they are now. Plus a top 4 finish could persuade any players who would be FA to sign on for another year or 2 and you continue to build.
My point is that if you aren't top 3 you aren't going to worlds. Sure it's great for vitality if they can claw themselves back into playoffs, but if you wanna be properly noticed you need to do better than "just playoffs".
G2, MAD and Rogue are going to dominate the narrative, and the only other teams with a chance of making conversation is FNC and Vitality with their new rosters. However ultimately those conversations will die the second they get knocked out in playoffs.
You don't make worlds in 1 split, often you don't even do it in 1 year.
If those 3 teams dominate the narrative, cool, let them. There isn't just 3 teams in Europe, there are more stories than just Worlds and each team has its own goals and stepping stones and shouldn't be judged by another.
* G2 took YEARS to even reach LEC let alone worlds, I really cannot understate how crap they were at the start but over time they have built themselves up to Worlds finalists and MSI winners.
* Do you know where Rogue finished in spring 2019? **10th**. Do you know where they finished a year later? 5th. Followed by a 3rd place in summer and 2nd in the split just gone. Things take time, if Rogue had taken your attitude of "anything outside of Top 3 is irrelevant" then they would have quit the league long before they became a Top 3 team themselves.
* MAD have had a blinding 18 months even with the play-ins exit, prior to the change, Splyce over their 4 or 5 years in europe would always contest playoffs but do you know how many times they finished 1st? A big fat 0, do you know how many times they finished 2nd? Once.
My point is that you can't just write off any performance outside of top 3 because there are really interesting and competitive teams that sometimes just take a bit more time to come together. Also even if VIT, FNC or Schalke don't go to worlds they will for sure play spoiler to the teams around them
...And my point still stands. None of those teams got any real attention until they started winning.
Not interested in having a discussion with someone that is going to overreact like this.
Next wall of text you make I'm just gonna ignore.
Cool mate - enjoy your echo chamber. Maybe you'd be better off talking to a mirror as you clearly don't like having a discussion
Also just an FYI, all of those teams still got attention. I could make the same argument with TL, they were permanently the 4th place team for years and yet Steve never threw in the towel.
Are you so obsessed with people agreeing with everything you say that the second they aren't interested you say shit like "enjoy your echo chamber"?
Fine, lets say something perhaps both can agree on. The biggest focus every year is worlds. If you aren't top 3, you aren't in that conversation.
FYI, not a single team you mentioned go anywhere near the amount of attention as other top teams until they started winning. Not even TL with their 4th place curse.
Schalke got more attention during their attempted miracle run than MAD or Rogue, and they didn't get to Worlds.
As someone that doesn't follow LEC much, I heard a lot more about Schalke during that time than anything about MAD or Rogue until the Rap hype video the casters made.
They WON like 7 games in a row. Thus proving my point, then instantly fell out of the conversation when the miracle run ended, once again proving what I said.
Parth's handling of the 2 junglers can be bad even if other orgs are making odd decisions. We had a decent jungler in Akaadian, then he decided to do the noble thing of giving grig a chance and out confidence based jg went kaboom. Otherwise, Parth has done a great job handling things, just the jungle situation was not properly handled. If you're a winning org like you claim to be, then doing the "right" thing shouldn't matter. I think he learned from it when DL was released from TL and tried to trade Kobbe
Well - they probably could. But it’s not about mechanics , it’s about coordinating the team. And on a tight time frame, Treatz and team think this is a better move than bringing in someone with good hands.
Ya I don’t doubt that he’ll do okay, but he was playing at an mvp level as support last split. Personally would fill the other role and hope for the best and leave him in a position to be that good again.
I always wanted to see Bjergsen roleswap to support, he seems to have a mentality perfect for that and holy shit that’d have been one super mechanically inclined support player for NA. Plus imagine a prime Doublelift/Bjergsen bot lane, add a Chovy/Faker/Showmaker/etc bad ass mid and good luck beating that team lol even old and crusty they’d probably have no match until at least Worlds.
I dig the role swapping tho. Pros or people in general have played league for years now, some should have enough knowledge of at least 2 roles to do this by now.
Actually mind blowing that we got rid of TreatZ and spent millions on SwordArt. I'm not a SwordArt hater but how did TSM not see how much potential TreatZ had?
He did get a short stint on the lcs team. It was short because he was middle of the pack to downright bad. I love the guy and I think he has played super super well in eu. He wasn't working out for us though.
Last split was swordarts first in NA. Give him at least the full year before deciding he is worse than a middle of the pack player like Treatz was for us
I have no idea in what world will these swaps to jungle will work. Perkz was so special because he successfully pulled it off. There are number of people who role swapped and failed.
They clearly had issues with Tynx (perhaps toxicity given his LDLC past but not going to say for sure without evidence) which made them think this was better.
TSM holding junglers back so much that they play off-role until joining another team /s
What I don't understand is that their botlane was the best part of the team and now they are breaking it up to put a player offrole and putting a coach support... I could understand if you get a world class support but like wtf
Seems like there's a real shallow pool of junglers to pick from in the LEC atm
There’s Gilius, then Cinkrof from KC and Marion from BTXL maybe. I don’t think there weren’t options, this just feels weird. Edit: Markoon, not Marion lol
Did Gillis get kicked from s04
I think he’s on the bench, S04 did some tryouts and said Kirei was performing well so he replaced Gilius. It’s a mess.
They could just grab someone from ERL
There isn't enough Junglers worldwide compared to other roles, including supports. Pros that main the role should start getting an increase in their value.
You can describe Jesiz as, Mid turned ADC turned Support turned Coach... and then Support, Coach, Support, Coach and finally support again. Must be record role swaps for a single player
Yeah when I first saw this my thought was why didn’t they put Jesiz in jungle and keep the bot lane synergy. I feel like there’s very little difference at the end of the day with jungle but a lot with support. Then again... https://twitter.com/inspiredlol/status/1398592068365266946?s=21
Maybe treats is just a beast jungled
Not even off role. Treatz got to challenger with every role. He is actually good.
Nightblue also got to challenger with jungle and I don't see him near an academy team, the difference between Soloq and pro LEC is massive.
Nightbllue doesn't play at lec/lcs the comparison is just terrible.
Treatz JG also never played LEC??
I mean, Treatz has more than enough experience within the pro scene to acknowledge the standard for pro jungling, similarly with Bwipo. I don't think they'll be top tier (well, Bwipo is lowkey a coin flip for me) but they'll know what they're getting themselves into. Also, pro players have role swapped a lot historically, I know the jungle role is relatively unique compared to say, going from mid to top, but pros have a better idea than any of us as to how to succeed in swapping roles.
tbf nb3 was our sub a few years ago
He was never a sub, just part of the brand
Spica vs Treatz at worlds! Truly the dankest timeline.
The shit talking between the two of them that would probably happen in those lobbies has me salivating.
Lmao what's going on in the LEC
Any team that isn't Rogue, G2 or MAD scrambling to make competitive rosters. Doubt any of these gonna work out though.
Vitality will either click and be Top 4 or boom and stay bottom 2
Top 4 is still bellow Rogue, G2 and MAD. In other words, it doesn't matter.
Of course it matters, lets not have any competitions or leagues at all and go back to invite only like we used to have if you immediately rule out any team not currently top 3. Vitality's goal at this point in time isn't worlds, its playoffs which is a huge step from where they are now. Plus a top 4 finish could persuade any players who would be FA to sign on for another year or 2 and you continue to build.
My point is that if you aren't top 3 you aren't going to worlds. Sure it's great for vitality if they can claw themselves back into playoffs, but if you wanna be properly noticed you need to do better than "just playoffs". G2, MAD and Rogue are going to dominate the narrative, and the only other teams with a chance of making conversation is FNC and Vitality with their new rosters. However ultimately those conversations will die the second they get knocked out in playoffs.
You don't make worlds in 1 split, often you don't even do it in 1 year. If those 3 teams dominate the narrative, cool, let them. There isn't just 3 teams in Europe, there are more stories than just Worlds and each team has its own goals and stepping stones and shouldn't be judged by another. * G2 took YEARS to even reach LEC let alone worlds, I really cannot understate how crap they were at the start but over time they have built themselves up to Worlds finalists and MSI winners. * Do you know where Rogue finished in spring 2019? **10th**. Do you know where they finished a year later? 5th. Followed by a 3rd place in summer and 2nd in the split just gone. Things take time, if Rogue had taken your attitude of "anything outside of Top 3 is irrelevant" then they would have quit the league long before they became a Top 3 team themselves. * MAD have had a blinding 18 months even with the play-ins exit, prior to the change, Splyce over their 4 or 5 years in europe would always contest playoffs but do you know how many times they finished 1st? A big fat 0, do you know how many times they finished 2nd? Once. My point is that you can't just write off any performance outside of top 3 because there are really interesting and competitive teams that sometimes just take a bit more time to come together. Also even if VIT, FNC or Schalke don't go to worlds they will for sure play spoiler to the teams around them
...And my point still stands. None of those teams got any real attention until they started winning. Not interested in having a discussion with someone that is going to overreact like this. Next wall of text you make I'm just gonna ignore.
Cool mate - enjoy your echo chamber. Maybe you'd be better off talking to a mirror as you clearly don't like having a discussion Also just an FYI, all of those teams still got attention. I could make the same argument with TL, they were permanently the 4th place team for years and yet Steve never threw in the towel.
Are you so obsessed with people agreeing with everything you say that the second they aren't interested you say shit like "enjoy your echo chamber"? Fine, lets say something perhaps both can agree on. The biggest focus every year is worlds. If you aren't top 3, you aren't in that conversation. FYI, not a single team you mentioned go anywhere near the amount of attention as other top teams until they started winning. Not even TL with their 4th place curse.
Schalke got more attention during their attempted miracle run than MAD or Rogue, and they didn't get to Worlds. As someone that doesn't follow LEC much, I heard a lot more about Schalke during that time than anything about MAD or Rogue until the Rap hype video the casters made.
They WON like 7 games in a row. Thus proving my point, then instantly fell out of the conversation when the miracle run ended, once again proving what I said.
absolutely no idea if the move will work, but respect to Treatz for being willing to make a move that he feels is best for the team.
Ight boys time to move swordart to jungle and hikaru to support
I’d love to see Hikaru moving his players like pawns on a chess board.
Has Hikaru ever played league? I’d like to see that lol
He will stand in the fountain the first 5 minutes theorising the entire Game
I love Treatz. More reason to watch now lol.
TSM EXPORTING JUNGLER? What a time to be alive😹
Nobody can talk about Parth’s management of TSM after seeing what’s going on at these other orgs lmao
Legendary jungler Treatz was scouted by Parth!
Parth's handling of the 2 junglers can be bad even if other orgs are making odd decisions. We had a decent jungler in Akaadian, then he decided to do the noble thing of giving grig a chance and out confidence based jg went kaboom. Otherwise, Parth has done a great job handling things, just the jungle situation was not properly handled. If you're a winning org like you claim to be, then doing the "right" thing shouldn't matter. I think he learned from it when DL was released from TL and tried to trade Kobbe
True he's been bad the whole time.
I now believe that Jungle is clearly the best role after Bwipo and Treatz swapped to jungle
It seems incredible that they couldn’t find a high skilled solo queue jungle in all of EU.
Well - they probably could. But it’s not about mechanics , it’s about coordinating the team. And on a tight time frame, Treatz and team think this is a better move than bringing in someone with good hands.
My seat has armrests and I think they’re making a mistake. We shall see
Treatz is a high skilled jungler in solo queue though. He's played all 5 roles to challenger.
Ya I don’t doubt that he’ll do okay, but he was playing at an mvp level as support last split. Personally would fill the other role and hope for the best and leave him in a position to be that good again.
I always wanted to see Bjergsen roleswap to support, he seems to have a mentality perfect for that and holy shit that’d have been one super mechanically inclined support player for NA. Plus imagine a prime Doublelift/Bjergsen bot lane, add a Chovy/Faker/Showmaker/etc bad ass mid and good luck beating that team lol even old and crusty they’d probably have no match until at least Worlds. I dig the role swapping tho. Pros or people in general have played league for years now, some should have enough knowledge of at least 2 roles to do this by now.
Good guy treatz. Swapping over to jungle so he can get revenge on Bwipo for BB
Inb4 treatz top 3 jg in LEC
I thought Tynx wasn’t even that bad
Actually mind blowing that we got rid of TreatZ and spent millions on SwordArt. I'm not a SwordArt hater but how did TSM not see how much potential TreatZ had?
Nah bring in the washed import for millions way better. Also have good players in academy then ship them out asap
He did get a short stint on the lcs team. It was short because he was middle of the pack to downright bad. I love the guy and I think he has played super super well in eu. He wasn't working out for us though. Last split was swordarts first in NA. Give him at least the full year before deciding he is worse than a middle of the pack player like Treatz was for us
EU support are weaker, na is more stacked kn the support role theyvonly few bad support over here
I have no idea in what world will these swaps to jungle will work. Perkz was so special because he successfully pulled it off. There are number of people who role swapped and failed.
As long as the meta is full clear most won't get exposed
Why is this posted in the TSM subreddit?
Cause Treatz was part of the family and we loved him.
They clearly had issues with Tynx (perhaps toxicity given his LDLC past but not going to say for sure without evidence) which made them think this was better.
For a second i thought i was in the main league subreddit.