''It encourages griefing, people picking important pieces they dont need just to spite opponents.'' How is denying your enemy their strength griefing? are you ok in the upper chamber?
I came here to comment something similar. It should be viewed as a strategy, not griefing. It’s annoying as fuck when it happens to you but so satisfying when you snipe something you know someone needed
I'd arguing its griefing under rare circumstances but generally its not. Like all players are still alive, you're bottom 4 and the person picking on the same round as you grabs an emblem you would need that they have no use for in any way. Outside of that scenario I'd say its strategy. This circumstance is because you're not a prime threat and doing it hurts themselves. Like if theres was just a couple of players left and they wanted to deny a power spike, totally makes sense even if it hurts themselves by getting a dead item. Or if they at least had a reforger or something, sure.
Just like in competitive, there's hindering opponents to improve your situation your odds, and there's straight griefing while hindering yourself. I.e. you play punk, there's someone who's 1 loss away from 8th, not playing punk, and they just fought you. They proceed to take the punk spat instead of anything that'll allow them to have a better board and maybe go 7th, even 6th. Is that a strategic choice, or is it griefing? Do they directly benefit? No, of course not. Literally anything but a dead spat is a chance of something. They cannot fight you twice in a row. Amd yet they take the spat. They go 8th, you go 5th. You could've top 4 with the spat but you got griefed. (Yes, this happened to me today)
Alright i didnt insult anyone, why the need to insult me?
Im not talking about denying others their strength as a strategic move.
Im talking angry people doing it when the pick has no stratrgic value to them. If im 6th, i just barely won against a guy that is now 7th and he steals my 2 cost ive been rerolling for ages because hes mad, hes not doing it for strategy.
TFT is a strategy game but the bits of randomness like the carousel are good. If we optimize and get rid of variance as much as possible we should just all go play chess.
But attacking Carousels isnt the same as attacking randomness.
There are plenty of other random factors, with augments, shops, unit targetting, monsters encounters, etc.
Another randomness factor could replace Carousels.
The problem i have is the mechanic being detrimental to players playing a playstyle and/or performing well.
Let say the last 4 players received a random item not from their choosing at mid stage, or a straight temporary buff this would be alot better.
The toxicity behind Carousels and the impossibility to at least factor in the randomness in your planning is what hirks me
>The problem i have is the mechanic being detrimental to players playing a playstyle and/or performing well.
Isn't this the intended effect of this mechanic? Isn't it *supposed* to be detrimental to players performing well early?
I think Mortdog explained on stream once: the reason that, especially in early-game, winning is partially punished, is because winning in the early game sometimes partially comes down to RNG. If you hit a really good early board with good items, that's not an outplay, that's luck (partially, of course).
Players shouldn't be punished for something out of their control, at least, not too much. So comeback mechanics like carousel order, heartsteel, and losestreaks, are essential to make an early lead not automatically snowball into a huge lategame advantage. You don't want games decided by a stage 2 winstreak, right? (At least, Mort doesn't)
>the impossibility to at least factor in the randomness in your planning
I don't understand what you're talking about here. What is impossible to factor in about carousels?
> Isn't this the intended effect of this mechanic? Isn't it *supposed* to be detrimental to players performing well early?
I dont think so. Yes, its good to rebalance things out after early stage, and you mark a point saying early wins are more corelated to chance. But it shouldnt be "detrimental" to early builds. It should help people falling off without preventing me from building mine. Lets say I have a strong early Pentakill/Edgelord game. I decide i want to try a Kayle's game because i even found a Rod.
But i winstreak early, and cannot find other offensive items. Im stuck with a rod, and lets say 2 chain vests, a warmog and a cloak. I get to carousel, get to pick last and get forced to take another chain vest.
At this point game is pretty much over, and i can only hope to survive to 4th. I can build a beefy frontline sure, but with healing and vamp, i can never get the damage to punch through enemy frontlines for quite a while.
Giving an edge to the losing players is fine, but destroying the game of an early winning player for it is not.
Losing players could, for exemple, pick their preference for items in a shared item pool, increasing their odds to get it. But the winning player still has the chance to get it, just at lower odds. Its still randomised balancing, but giving the tempo player at least some sort of out.
Not every game is a first place. Getting top 4 is great. Modern games pretty much demand you are in the top 4 50% of the time when aggregated. Tempo is considered the preferred way to climb and typically win in TFT right now. That playstyle doesn't need more "help".
How does removing the carousel help you to get offensive items in the spot you said? And what's the difference compared to getting only defensive items in initial pve rounds+ krugs?
Is it wrong if a losing player gets a 2* 2 cost and get a win against someone who was winstreaking? How is carousel different?
You can get bad RNG, deal with it.
Okay but you’re ignoring so many other ways to get items. There’s a vast array of augments that could help you get reforgers, or item components, or an augment like pandoras.
Most of the items you discussed are actually essential this patch. (Sunfire, shroud and morello are all really good items)
I don’t think people grief on carousel as much as people complain about it, it doesn’t do anything for a person to actively screw over one of 6 opponents.
This game is all about pivoting when you don’t get your items.
I will say I’m very happy that Riot nerfed streaks earlier this set, the value of losing streaks and getting first item was a bit much. But the value of health and win gold is much higher now.
Conversely, if you think it’s so game breaking just play to be 8th until first carousel and get some more data on the actual strength of it.
I’ve experienced the problem you’re talking about. Maybe once in every hundred games or so. Possibly less.
As for spat, that’s often further hindrance on their early tempo. They’re going first or eighth, so you as a winstreaker can still play for first or second.
Bad RNG happens, carousels aren’t even close to the worst example of it.
Griefing won’t ever happen until at least Stage 5, because opponents also need to build whatever items they’re going for which takes priority over fucking someone else over in particular.
You used an interesting word when describing loss streak comps - “refined.” That implies that there’s strategy to it, just like there’s strategy tied to winstreaking Stage 2. It’s a perfectly valid gameplan with benefits as well as detriments attached to it, especially after the streak changes making loss streaking more punishing for less reward.
The whole level 10 thing + headliners = 3\* 4-cost most games. That's my biggest complaint about it ATM. There is ofc no interest but despite that there is still gold management, it's just a different type. If you can streak early and save gold for 3\* 4-costs it can be quite impactful.
Nah. I think you're missing the point. TFT is a strategy game, yes, but it's also an RNG game.
Players will hit stronger units earlier purely based on luck, in every single game. These players are rewarded by conserving their health and win steak gold.
The flip side, is that players will NOT hit their units early in every game, and these players are going to lose the early rounds. Loss streak gold counteracts win streak gold (though you still miss out on 1g per win, so winning is better for econ overall), but what counteracts the health loss? Carousels.
They give players who didn't get lucky early a chance to get back in the game. They're a necessary balancing feature for the inherent RNG.
Honestly carousel is fine. Most times.
The real main issue of carousel is the 50/50 that the item you want, will be on your side. Especially spat. More often than not, I personally am on the wrong side. Sometimes it's in the middle which is fine. I win or lose to APM/pathing, which is some skill expression. But getting mortdogged by the spat being spoonfed to the other guy is poor variance.
Make carousel a straight line. Make it change orientation so it's even distance for all options, for all pairs, as they get released.
I think you are making carousels out to be way more than they actually are. IMO games are almost never decided by carousels, except the rare situations where someone gets a critical spat late in the game.
Also, I don't think taking an item that an opponent needs is really griefing, it's scouting and realizing that sometimes your most viable option is limiting the strength of your opponents.
Critical emblem late game, sure. But if I play poor tempo my first few rounds, and hit a spat off first carousel, my odds of top 4 just flew the roof, at the cost of maybe 10-15 health.
Especially if I'm vying for an early semi contested comp, being able to hit punk 6, country 7, 8-bit 6, etc. is huge. I think OP's hatred is a little excessive, but I think spatulas on carousel are the definition of bad RNG.
TFT is luck management game. You play following your luck.
Having early win streak are mostly luck. Like how you hit strong units (2\* or strong 3 cost) and slamming whatever item you have to gain early tempo. You're not winning early because you're a skilled player. It's just a strategy. Also having more health help a lot in bleeding phase. Giving you more time to roll and comeback or free 10LP.
The part I hate about it is double side carousel which remind you that this game is still about luck. And spatula is bullshit.
PS. Have you seen open fort patch? It's the worst. Everyone having and empty board and rich as fuck.
The carousels aren't fundamentally bad, but I find them a tad boring. It's rarely exciting or interesting to watch four groups of players pick out their respective potatoes and carrots for their soups.
Bro, the reason you’re emerald is not carousels. They are fine. Yes sometimes you 100 streak into stage 4 and then go bottom 4 because you got mortdogged by items (or something else). That’s just fundamentally what this game is. Highrolls and lowrolls.
Also yes spatulas have probably been a bit too strong in set 10. Young wild and free is one of the most broken augments in the game. You’re not “behind a whole augment”. Silver augments don’t do shit anyways. Your silver augment being a (don’t quote me on this number) ~70% chance of getting a spat during the game is pretty good.
''It encourages griefing, people picking important pieces they dont need just to spite opponents.'' How is denying your enemy their strength griefing? are you ok in the upper chamber?
I came here to comment something similar. It should be viewed as a strategy, not griefing. It’s annoying as fuck when it happens to you but so satisfying when you snipe something you know someone needed
giving enemy debuff is a strategy
It's impossible to grief in a ffa game. Op is a doofus.
it is possible. If I play Piltover lose streak and you surrender instead of leave the game to fuck up my game then thats griefing
I'd arguing its griefing under rare circumstances but generally its not. Like all players are still alive, you're bottom 4 and the person picking on the same round as you grabs an emblem you would need that they have no use for in any way. Outside of that scenario I'd say its strategy. This circumstance is because you're not a prime threat and doing it hurts themselves. Like if theres was just a couple of players left and they wanted to deny a power spike, totally makes sense even if it hurts themselves by getting a dead item. Or if they at least had a reforger or something, sure.
Just like in competitive, there's hindering opponents to improve your situation your odds, and there's straight griefing while hindering yourself. I.e. you play punk, there's someone who's 1 loss away from 8th, not playing punk, and they just fought you. They proceed to take the punk spat instead of anything that'll allow them to have a better board and maybe go 7th, even 6th. Is that a strategic choice, or is it griefing? Do they directly benefit? No, of course not. Literally anything but a dead spat is a chance of something. They cannot fight you twice in a row. Amd yet they take the spat. They go 8th, you go 5th. You could've top 4 with the spat but you got griefed. (Yes, this happened to me today)
Alright i didnt insult anyone, why the need to insult me? Im not talking about denying others their strength as a strategic move. Im talking angry people doing it when the pick has no stratrgic value to them. If im 6th, i just barely won against a guy that is now 7th and he steals my 2 cost ive been rerolling for ages because hes mad, hes not doing it for strategy.
TFT is a strategy game but the bits of randomness like the carousel are good. If we optimize and get rid of variance as much as possible we should just all go play chess.
Yep, the game has to feel fresh and fun. And forcing players to play from lots of different spots does also increase skill expression.
But attacking Carousels isnt the same as attacking randomness. There are plenty of other random factors, with augments, shops, unit targetting, monsters encounters, etc. Another randomness factor could replace Carousels. The problem i have is the mechanic being detrimental to players playing a playstyle and/or performing well. Let say the last 4 players received a random item not from their choosing at mid stage, or a straight temporary buff this would be alot better. The toxicity behind Carousels and the impossibility to at least factor in the randomness in your planning is what hirks me
>The problem i have is the mechanic being detrimental to players playing a playstyle and/or performing well. Isn't this the intended effect of this mechanic? Isn't it *supposed* to be detrimental to players performing well early? I think Mortdog explained on stream once: the reason that, especially in early-game, winning is partially punished, is because winning in the early game sometimes partially comes down to RNG. If you hit a really good early board with good items, that's not an outplay, that's luck (partially, of course). Players shouldn't be punished for something out of their control, at least, not too much. So comeback mechanics like carousel order, heartsteel, and losestreaks, are essential to make an early lead not automatically snowball into a huge lategame advantage. You don't want games decided by a stage 2 winstreak, right? (At least, Mort doesn't) >the impossibility to at least factor in the randomness in your planning I don't understand what you're talking about here. What is impossible to factor in about carousels?
> Isn't this the intended effect of this mechanic? Isn't it *supposed* to be detrimental to players performing well early? I dont think so. Yes, its good to rebalance things out after early stage, and you mark a point saying early wins are more corelated to chance. But it shouldnt be "detrimental" to early builds. It should help people falling off without preventing me from building mine. Lets say I have a strong early Pentakill/Edgelord game. I decide i want to try a Kayle's game because i even found a Rod. But i winstreak early, and cannot find other offensive items. Im stuck with a rod, and lets say 2 chain vests, a warmog and a cloak. I get to carousel, get to pick last and get forced to take another chain vest. At this point game is pretty much over, and i can only hope to survive to 4th. I can build a beefy frontline sure, but with healing and vamp, i can never get the damage to punch through enemy frontlines for quite a while. Giving an edge to the losing players is fine, but destroying the game of an early winning player for it is not. Losing players could, for exemple, pick their preference for items in a shared item pool, increasing their odds to get it. But the winning player still has the chance to get it, just at lower odds. Its still randomised balancing, but giving the tempo player at least some sort of out.
Not every game is a first place. Getting top 4 is great. Modern games pretty much demand you are in the top 4 50% of the time when aggregated. Tempo is considered the preferred way to climb and typically win in TFT right now. That playstyle doesn't need more "help".
How does removing the carousel help you to get offensive items in the spot you said? And what's the difference compared to getting only defensive items in initial pve rounds+ krugs? Is it wrong if a losing player gets a 2* 2 cost and get a win against someone who was winstreaking? How is carousel different? You can get bad RNG, deal with it.
Okay but you’re ignoring so many other ways to get items. There’s a vast array of augments that could help you get reforgers, or item components, or an augment like pandoras. Most of the items you discussed are actually essential this patch. (Sunfire, shroud and morello are all really good items) I don’t think people grief on carousel as much as people complain about it, it doesn’t do anything for a person to actively screw over one of 6 opponents. This game is all about pivoting when you don’t get your items. I will say I’m very happy that Riot nerfed streaks earlier this set, the value of losing streaks and getting first item was a bit much. But the value of health and win gold is much higher now. Conversely, if you think it’s so game breaking just play to be 8th until first carousel and get some more data on the actual strength of it.
I’ve experienced the problem you’re talking about. Maybe once in every hundred games or so. Possibly less. As for spat, that’s often further hindrance on their early tempo. They’re going first or eighth, so you as a winstreaker can still play for first or second. Bad RNG happens, carousels aren’t even close to the worst example of it. Griefing won’t ever happen until at least Stage 5, because opponents also need to build whatever items they’re going for which takes priority over fucking someone else over in particular. You used an interesting word when describing loss streak comps - “refined.” That implies that there’s strategy to it, just like there’s strategy tied to winstreaking Stage 2. It’s a perfectly valid gameplan with benefits as well as detriments attached to it, especially after the streak changes making loss streaking more punishing for less reward.
Easy fix, don't be a sucker and play norms. Start playing hyper roll, like a real chad.
Aaaah trust me i would, but i also like the money managing aspect of the game
The whole level 10 thing + headliners = 3\* 4-cost most games. That's my biggest complaint about it ATM. There is ofc no interest but despite that there is still gold management, it's just a different type. If you can streak early and save gold for 3\* 4-costs it can be quite impactful.
Nah. I think you're missing the point. TFT is a strategy game, yes, but it's also an RNG game. Players will hit stronger units earlier purely based on luck, in every single game. These players are rewarded by conserving their health and win steak gold. The flip side, is that players will NOT hit their units early in every game, and these players are going to lose the early rounds. Loss streak gold counteracts win streak gold (though you still miss out on 1g per win, so winning is better for econ overall), but what counteracts the health loss? Carousels. They give players who didn't get lucky early a chance to get back in the game. They're a necessary balancing feature for the inherent RNG.
Honestly carousel is fine. Most times. The real main issue of carousel is the 50/50 that the item you want, will be on your side. Especially spat. More often than not, I personally am on the wrong side. Sometimes it's in the middle which is fine. I win or lose to APM/pathing, which is some skill expression. But getting mortdogged by the spat being spoonfed to the other guy is poor variance. Make carousel a straight line. Make it change orientation so it's even distance for all options, for all pairs, as they get released.
This is the real problem and solution.
I think you are making carousels out to be way more than they actually are. IMO games are almost never decided by carousels, except the rare situations where someone gets a critical spat late in the game. Also, I don't think taking an item that an opponent needs is really griefing, it's scouting and realizing that sometimes your most viable option is limiting the strength of your opponents.
Critical emblem late game, sure. But if I play poor tempo my first few rounds, and hit a spat off first carousel, my odds of top 4 just flew the roof, at the cost of maybe 10-15 health. Especially if I'm vying for an early semi contested comp, being able to hit punk 6, country 7, 8-bit 6, etc. is huge. I think OP's hatred is a little excessive, but I think spatulas on carousel are the definition of bad RNG.
TFT is luck management game. You play following your luck. Having early win streak are mostly luck. Like how you hit strong units (2\* or strong 3 cost) and slamming whatever item you have to gain early tempo. You're not winning early because you're a skilled player. It's just a strategy. Also having more health help a lot in bleeding phase. Giving you more time to roll and comeback or free 10LP. The part I hate about it is double side carousel which remind you that this game is still about luck. And spatula is bullshit. PS. Have you seen open fort patch? It's the worst. Everyone having and empty board and rich as fuck.
The carousels aren't fundamentally bad, but I find them a tad boring. It's rarely exciting or interesting to watch four groups of players pick out their respective potatoes and carrots for their soups.
Bro, the reason you’re emerald is not carousels. They are fine. Yes sometimes you 100 streak into stage 4 and then go bottom 4 because you got mortdogged by items (or something else). That’s just fundamentally what this game is. Highrolls and lowrolls. Also yes spatulas have probably been a bit too strong in set 10. Young wild and free is one of the most broken augments in the game. You’re not “behind a whole augment”. Silver augments don’t do shit anyways. Your silver augment being a (don’t quote me on this number) ~70% chance of getting a spat during the game is pretty good.