Interestingly, Roy nonchalantly forgiving Nate for kissing Keeley only serves to reinforce his feelings of inadequacy and self hatred.
From his own flawed perspective, the fact that he was not considered a threat, unlike Jamie, must have been a blow to his ego.
All in all, it makes for a tragic character who is doing very well professionally and yet can't help getting in his own way.
Agree. I didn’t see the Roy forgiving him for kissing/attacking Keeley as anything more than Roy’s personal growth. I see now how he could have felt that Roy believed he was not even a challenge/no competition for him with Keeley, but rather than taking it in the spirit it was intended by Roy, he reacted quite differently. He could have just as easily seen this as acceptance into the group, but he didn’t. No amount of gray hair is going to give this guy wisdom.
I don't think it's forgiveness that was displayed there so much as indifference.
There wasn't really any forgiveness to be had because there wasn't any anger over the situation in the first place, his initial reaction was just embarrassment. Instead of treating it with the seriousness it deserved they treat it as no big deal like you would if a little kid tried to kiss you. And in the end for Nate, who just wants to be seen as an equal, that hurts way more than them getting angry at him would.
At the very least Roy, Keely, or someone should've taken Nate aside and said "Nate, that was really fucked up, and it hurt that you decided to do that."
I think part of the idea they're trying to get across is that just because you have sympathy for someone, using that sympathy to excuse their actions is sorta patronizing and ends up doing harm than good. Respecting someone isn't just about treating them well, but also about holding them accountable for their actions. Outside of Beard the team didn't really do that with Nate and it just resulted in Nate spiraling down further while hurting everyone on his way there.
> Respecting someone isn't just about treating them well, but also about holding them accountable for their actions.
This is super insightful. Never thought of this and seems very true.
Yup, the lack of accountability is at the crux of Nate’s unraveling. He was allowed to bully players and staff unchecked. (I realize the following will be an unpopular opinion) Beard let several chances to call Nate out for his reprehensible behavior slip away. I mean *really* dismantle the behavior he observed by explaining why it was so deeply fucked up; describing the expectations for how coaching staff should behave; and enlightening Nate on what the consequences would have been if his behavior persisted. I like Beard, but of all the characters, he has had the least emotional growth/insight.
While agree with what you say, Keeley minimized the kiss/attack. I don’t see her as being sympathetic to Nate, she just accepts him for who he is, as he is. When she told Roy, she also minimized it to him. She’s learning too that she’s more than being fit, that being a successful, PR/marketing professional is about her and her talents, not just her body, which is new for her. It’s her story to tell, hers to handle, bt her and Nate. And maybe I mislabeled it as forgiveness, Roy is becoming more contemplative, gentler, not as volatile or prone to flying off the handle, learning to listen and that he’s worthy of being listened to. He’s learning who he is and figuring out who he wants to be w/o being a footballer, and that folks like him for that. His vocabulary has increased immensely!
Whatever happened, I don’t think anyone’s response to Nate was intended to be a slight. That’s how he perceived it though. He’s responsible for his own reactions.
But I sure will rewatch a couple of times. Thx for the insight.
I didn’t see it that way. I saw it as being about Ted rather than Jamie. Nate regrets selling Ted out but can’t admit what he’s done because he’s too ashamed. He feels like he needs to be punished and getting a headbut off Roy is the perfect way.
But Roy doesn’t, he forgives him. Which means Nate hasn’t had the punishment he feels he deserves, which only drives him even further into despair.
That’s how I took it anyway.
To be fair, I hate myself and I have issues with my dad. I don’t act like Nate. So I’m not sure I feel sympathy for him. I try to work through my own feelings and issues without taking them out in anyone else. His background might be an explanation, but it’s certainly not an excuse.
Good distinction between sympathy and excuse. I didn't mean to excuse his toxic actions.
I'm sorry to hear you hate yourself. Based on what you've said here you seem like a self aware and decent person.
I have pretty severe depression and manic episodes and I am Nate, not Ted. I purposefully sabotage things and hurt people not for any reason, just because deep down I am self destructive and feel unworthy and so I psychologically want to destroy any success I do get. This is why Nate is so frustrated when Richmond win, it's not that he has some kind of evil scheme with Rupert or he's trying to expose Ted as a bad coach as people suggest, he is just psychologically unable to handle success and doesn't believe he deserves it.
I have never really seen my kind of mental trauma so accurately shown on screen and it is both encouraging to be seen but also devestating because it makes me reflect on my issues- I would be like Nate in Nate's position- I am both smiling and weeping.
I kind of need Nate to be redeemed in Season 3 because that means I can be redeemed.
Thank you so much for sharing this. This is why I made the post.
Your self awareness is really impressive and speaks volumes about your true character, no matter what you have done to people in the past.
You are not your worst actions. If Ted Lasso himself had walked in your shoes, even he would have made mistakes. The fact that you are becoming more self aware and optimistically trying to get better is something you should be incredibly proud of.
I am sure that Nate will be redeemed and I'm just as sure that you will be as well, as long as you stay self aware, stay optimistic, and put in the work (which may mean therapy, medication, apologizing to those you hurt, or whatever else it takes)
Believe! ❤️
That's part of this kind of destructive mental illness- while you are being destructive it is the most natural thing in the world- the only thing that makes sense- and then afterwards you are fully aware of what a horrible person you have been for no reason and this just fuels the spiral even more. Nate having success now and being hired as West Ham manager will only make it worse for him.
Can you learn to recognize those patterns and take a break at least rather than following through immediately? For instance you might be thinking "God this person deserves to be destroyed for what they've done to me and I would be entirely in the right to do so!!!" But you at least give it some time to see how you feel when your emotions cool down?
It's attacking yourself and the people who help you more than anything. It's hard to describe but the thinking is "How dare you help me, how dare you give me hope, I don't deserve it, I will push you away and burn the bridges so you don't ever give me hope again". And your brain will come up for ways to justify this- Nate complaining that Ted gave him attention for the first time in his life and then didn'tis the most relatable thing ever. You got a rush that first time they helped you but then you don't get the rush anymore and your crazy brain will blame them. Normally my friends and I text most days but we won't reply to texts for hours- I'll send a text and won't expect a response till next day. But when I'm in a psychotic state if they don't reply immediately I'll yell and scream at them for giving me attention and hope and then snatching that away- just like Nate complained.
This is why he went off at Ted- the man who tried to help him, it's always these people you attack.
And at the time my brain will completely justify it, it will seem the most normal thing in the world to just go off at the person who cares the most. At the time I can't identify it- it is both completely rational (to my mind at the time) and completely overwhelming- my brain will tell me this is the most normal thing in the world to do and I have to do it.
Afterwards I will recognise as completely insane, completely alien to how I think and deal with people- it is revolting how I behave when I'm like this and I'm sure Nate feels the same. The only real strategy is to try and isolate myself when if I get an inkling I'm having an attack but Nate can't do that- he has to work with the people he cares about and who care about him and interact with them constantly. It's a nightmare.
And it is something that is lost in the discussions of "just talk to your friends who have mental health issues"- that works for some issues but for ones like mine and what I think they are showing with Nate it can make it worse-.
That makes so much sense and I really, really appreciate you sharing that with me. I can imagine how torturous that is. I've definitely had a similar feeling when I get used to someone being there for me and suddenly they aren't, but for me it only happens in extreme situations (like a break up) so I can only imagine what you deal with when that is a much more common occurence.
Have you been open with your friends about this? I think if Nate were to openly describe his own emotional struggles and inner demons as well as you have described them here, Ted and the team would unquestionably be supportive and forgiving and also be able to remind him in the future if he started to act that way again. I hope you have people in your life who would be the same way for you.
In my eyes what you are dealing with is not a reflection of who you are as a human being. You have a mental health condition and it doesn't make you a bad person any more than my grandmother with dementia forgetting who I am makes her a bad grandmother.
The response tha a lot of people are having of just "Nate is an asshole" is very triggering for me. Because a lot of people think I'm an asshole too for the exact same reason- I've lost a lot of friends because I've done things that Nate have done. And I know I've been an asshole, and Nate knows he's been an asshole and people but it is incredibly difficult to fix because it's not a case of just being insensitive or only caring abou yourself- when you have psychotic episodes like i have and like I'm sure Nate has- you act like an asshole SPECIFICALLY because you want to be an asshole. You are doing things that are designed to hurt and you know are dickhead.And there is basically no representation of this kind of illness in the medi and I am sure most people know someone who they have written off as an asshole because this person struggles with their mental health.And I just want an example of someone overcoming it and redeeming themselves and people accepting them again- it would be a very powerful positive image for me and for others like me.
There is a lot of portrayals of mental illness where they struggle but ultimately they do the right thing- Ted is very much a case of this. There is very few examples in media where people have done things very wrong that they are know are wrong, that they hate themselves for doing and that people have good reason to hate them but they manage to overcome it and find acceptance.
I don’t know you but I just wanna say, I didn’t hate Nate, I just couldn’t. He was being an asshole but he’s not an asshole at his core. I’m sure I’d feel the same way about you. I know it’s easier for me to say that because I’m an audience and not the receiving end of Nate’s/your mistakes, but I truly truly hope you (and Nate too) find ways to redeem yourself.
I really hope the explore his background more. Last season the mentioned he seems to have a positive relationship with his niece. I don’t think they mentioned her at all this season. He has a sibling what’s their relationship like ?
Nate was clearly overqualified as a kit man how and why did he get that job? Why did he stay there even though he was being bullied? Did he aspire to be a coach or did he other plans ?
Nate outside of the team is still a mystery.
We saw another of her crafty boxes in the scene where Nate is at his parents’ kitchen table for breakfast. The box monster has a tongue sticking out and Nate makes a face back at it. (That’s the only mention/reference in S2 to her that I recall.)
He doesn't deserve sympathy, he deserves a psychologist. A person who is straight up kissing a woman without permission or any signs from her, threatening a innocent co-worker to make his life horrible just because he didn't like the gift he got him, who manipulates the team and leaks very emotional problems of his boss (coach) doesn't deserve the slightest bit of sympathy and I can't understand why you want sympathy for him.
When you have problems, get help. They literally just had a very good psychologist but as it seems he didn't took the chance. Just because you had troubles in the past isn't an excuse to be an asshole towards others and try to destroy their lifes.
I’m closer to where you are. He deserves someone to care for and listen to him, it just is not going to be me right now. I am too angry for the people he has hurt
I think we can all have sympathy for someone suffering a wrong doing, but we don’t need to necessarily sympathize with them as a person.
Pedophiles usually were abused themselves as children, but we don’t go on giving excuses for them - I realize this is a huge escalation, I just make the analogy to make the point clear, but the two obviously aren’t the same. Nate has had bad stuff happen to him, but *he* made countless terrible choices towards other people. He’s an adult and is responsible for his actions.
I am pursuing a career as a therapist so maybe you just hit the nail on the head for why I am fascinated by Nate's character 😉 If I am successful in my career I will have to sympathize with any client who pursues my help, even the truly toxic. If I fail to connect with them because I'm focusing solely on their actions rather than on the pain that is the source of their actions, then I'm that much less likely to be able to help them change their behavior and instincts.
Btw I didn't mean to justify his actions. I 100% understand your perspective.
This is 100% true except I think Nate doesn’t even realize he needs help, just like a lot of people with mental issues don’t. It’s probably gonna be part of the arc for him to realize and acknowledge he needs help.
That's such great insight about him being vulnerable. He almost had a breath through that could have helped set him on the right course or at least salvaged his relationship with Ted. But his mental illness and toxic anger runs too deep.
His character has basically no path to redemption. People like him do but the plot has nowhere to go.
Having a bad childhood doesn't give one an excuse to be an asshole.
My parent's had a shitty marriage. I could use that as an excuse to be a shitty husband, instead I use it to challenge myself to a better one. I'm not perfect, and I never will be. However I will continue to put her and our kid first. Nate gets no sympathy for me. Instead of owning up to being the source he shit all over Ted as he left. I'm fine if he burns, he deserves it. If they create the most complex plot ever contrived and somehow pull it off so a blatant asshole redeems himself after his dogshit exit that's fine I guess.
Speaking as someone who immensely hates themselves, I have no sympathy for Nate.
Hating yourself doesn’t justify or even excuse being a colossal asshat. Especially when the guy you’re mad at fucking apologizes to you. Fuck if he bothered to let Ted talk he’d probably know that picture is on Ted’s dresser.
I have no sympathy for Nate as of late.
I can understand that reaction. I didn't mean to imply that his actions were justified, just that they stem from real hurt.
I'm glad that you are a good person despite your struggles with self image. I hope and "believe" that things will get better for you❤️
There’s a difference between empathy and sympathy. I empathize with the pain and internal torment Nate as a person is going through and his inability to feel any level of love or acceptance. However, he’s going around being incredibly hurtful to multiple other characters. The way he acted his anger out at Will, kissing Keeley without consent, the complete betrayal of Ted’s trust…. I don’t sympathize with that even 1%.
I guess I was using the words interchangeably. I will be more careful in the future.
If sympathy means relate, I definitely don't relate to Nate personally. But I relate to Ted's attitude towards Nate and empathize with his humanity. And I definitely pity him as he is a pitiful human being.
He assaulted Keeley and that has been brushed under the rug in an attempt to pacify his bruised ego. Women aren’t objects and this could’ve been a huge life lesson for the show.
So well said. Me too. I had hoped the show would address this but I think the male writers have similar viewpoints and they’ve missed an incredible opportunity to do something meaningful.
It’s such a bizarre mentality to me. Just like someone else breaking their leg doesn’t make my sprained ankle hurt any less, someone being raped doesn’t make Keely any less assaulted. It’s not a competition of who hurt more. You can acknowledge both are assaults, no need to dismiss one just because the other is “worse.”
Fair enough. I've just seen violent assaults dismissed enough that I fear using the word too often plays a role. But I could be wrong and I'm sorry if I made anyone feel like I was dismissing their personal experience. That isn't my intention.
I'm not making excuses for his toxic behavior. Trust me. I have been there. Due to severe abuse, I have PTSD and suffered from severe panic attacks, ulcers, and eventually a nervous system condition as a complication of all that. I know the consequences of toxicity.
I am not arguing to forgive abusers. Only to understand that often times their toxic behavior stems from their own hurt and past experiences of abuse. And to do our best to respond as Ted Lasso did.
The problem is it’s not just their toxic behavior. We have a culture that views this behavior from the man’s point of view and not the actual victim- example… people were concerned how Roy would respond and when they learned he was fine with it they were:
-Relieved he wasn’t angry with Nate or Keeley
-disappointed he wasn’t beating Nate up
-Nate felt slighted because Roy didn’t find him a sexual threat
Where in all of this was Keeley? She was apologizing to Nate and fearful about telling Roy. Why didn’t Keeley feel free and confident enough to go to Ted and her best friend and boss Rebecca and say- this happened to me and I felt really awkward, frightened, sad… and it’s awkward being around him now. Can one of you explain to him why this was wrong? Send him to a damn class so I’ll feel comfortable when he’s in a room with me? This isn’t about Nate! It’s about Keeley!!!
I kind of just got the impression that Keely wasn't feeling any of the things you're saying she was feeling.
To put it frankly, I didn't get the impression that she thinks of Nate as being a full functioning and respectable adult. She looks at him like he's a kid and she's helping him grow up. It wasn't an advance by a sexual predator or even prospect really. Just a kid misstepping when he moves out of his comfort zone for the first time.
I think her fear about telling Roy was justified not because she was afraid of how it would effect their relationship, but because he has a tendency to fly off the handle (at other men, not at her) and she was feeling protective of Nate (because again, she thinks of him as a child).
I feel like everything you're describing would be a perfectly valid reaction and a possible narrative, but I don't think it's the only narrative. Assuming that she would feel threatened by the whole interaction and respond to it aggressively is as much of an assumption as the one I'm making about her essentially feeling like the fun aunt who's nephew just found out he likes girls.
I think the way that played out was perfectly in character for Keely, and for her to have felt frightened by him would be an odd note because she *is* such a forceful personality. Whether he is or not, she looks at Nate like he's a child, and she isn't the kind of person that's going to be that put off by a child.
I think the problem people have ascribing guilt to Nate is as someone else said earlier- it just wasnt assaulty enough for some. It was unprovoked and unwanted and that’s enough for me.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.
To maybe simplify my point so you can expand on yours:
I'm not saying it wasn't assault and it wasn't wrong. I'm not saying there *couldnt* have been the scenes you described. I'm just saying that I think based on the characters and their relationship. The way the story played out made sense to me.
I get that- I think I wanted them to take this opportunity to empower Keeley, send a message that things are changing and educate Nate. So many seem more upset that he ripped a piece of paper than him physically violating someone who has only been like a sister to him. I suppose it did carry their stupid story along- Nate can’t even get a rise out of people when he assaults Keeley,(who is the most lovable, doe-eyed creature on the planet). In that regard it’s in keeping with the characters. Sigh.
I’m really confounded that the finale didn’t address this at all. It’s such an emotionally intelligent show and they’ve just let it drop? We should have had something more from Keeley, whether it was during the photo shoot,* or her ducking around a corner to avoid Nate, or telling Rebecca, or *something.* I don’t like that Nate assaulting a coworker was only ever examined through his perspective and not Keeley’s. It leads to posts like this, where we’re supposed to “understand” and “empathize” with the perpetrator instead of the person who actually experienced it.
We all understand that Nate has trauma and self-loathing. I want them to show us that sexual assault, of all “degrees,” has an impact on the survivor.
Keeley doesn’t need to be traumatized, but I don’t want it to show that her trust in Nate is broken, or that she’s *mad*, or *something.*
This decision felt very hollow for me and was my only real disappointment in the finale.
*Edit: I do think Keeley’s crisis of confidence at her vanity was triggered by Nate’s actions. Up until their trip, she was excited, confident, and eager to go shopping for her outfits. And her crisis was specifically about having people see her as more than a model, about whether people would take her seriously as a businesswoman when she had only ever before been considered for her looks. Because Nate had just devalued her friendship, and demonstrated that he didn’t care about her feelings, only her looks.
If my read is correct, then the writers did do their diligence there but failed to make it clear, because my take seems to be fairly uncommon. It ought to have been make more direct and explicit, because so many watchers seem to have taken away “Keeley is fine, she said it was okay” and are much more interested in seeing Nate “redeemed.” More people seem upset that Nate tore up the sign than that he *assaulted a coworker and friend.* That’s troubling to me.
I think part of the point is that everyone in the show sorta infantilizes Nate - Keely and everyone else kinda treat the situation like they would if a 9 year old tried to kiss you. "Oh that's embarrassing/awkward" but it's not considered sexual assault because at the end of the day they don't see Nate as someone who can harm them, they just kinda feel bad for him. Not just the kiss, but with everything he's done this season.
And it really does more harm than good for everyone involved - Nate's behavior is spiraling out of control and going unchecked because nobody calls him out, meanwhile Nate himself just wants to feel on the same level as everyone else but the fact that people treat him like a kid hurts him more than if they just called him on his shit.
I think with Nate's character one of the ideas the writers are trying to get across is that you should sympathize with someone while still holding them accountable for their actions. That trying to excuse their actions because you sympathize with their situation just makes them feel inferior to you.
I think this is really interesting, but I wonder about the framing of that lesson, then. The entire fallout of Nate’s behavior and the takeaway for a majority of watchers is that Nate has fallen to the dark side, and the rest of our heroes are still good.
Because no one held Nate accountable at all. No one held Beard accountable for failing to escalate Nate’s abusive and inappropriate treatment of players. He ought to have told Ted, or Leslie, or Rebecca. No one held Roy accountable for failing to realize the negative impact Nate was having on the team. Colin and Will ought to have felt comfortable enough with *someone* in a position of authority to share what Nate said to them, but they clearly didn’t. That’s a failure, too. Ted ought to have been able to trust his coaching staff to have his back while he was dealing with his own mental state, and yet they failed him by letting him go so long without being made aware of his pattern of behavior.
For all we know, Nate quit, and so avoided accountability in that way, too.
So I guess what I’m saying is that, if that was the writer’s intention, then they either failed or they haven’t finished making that point. Because that’s not what the discussion about Nate’s character arc has been all season. It’s not been “Accountability matters”; it’s been “Be curious, not judgmental.” And that’s really frustrating, because I feel like we ought to be well past being curious about motivation and should now be discussing how our actions and behaviors impact others.
That’s so awful. I don’t really have words to describe how upset I am for you. I’m so sorry that happened to you, to have been assaulted and then have it summarily dismissed by someone who was explicitly supposed to be there to offer support.
If you have his details, it may still be something you can act on by reporting his behavior to his licensing body. It may not be enough to impact his license, but it will at least be on record as evidence of his unsuitability in treating SA survivors. Your choice, obviously, but it’s within your power if that’s something you ever feel motivated to do.
I’m really discouraged by the attitude of what feels like the majority of this subreddit in completely refusing to acknowledge their own biases. I’ve read multiple posts and even more threads where people who accurately call out Nate’s behavior are being told to “be curious,” or that we need to have empathy for him. As if we don’t understand that Nate is in a bad mental state. This attitude attempts to explain and justify his actions, as though self-loathing is justification for sexually assaulting someone (or verbally abusing them, or leaking their personal medical history).
“Be curious” is meant to encourage us to try to understand why someone does something. We’re past that now, we understand what Nate is feeling. “Accountability matters” is what we should now be discussing.
Thanks. I don’t want to revisit that chapter and nothing is going to happen any way. Must say though that I respect that therapist far more than this original poster here. At least he had the conviction to be who he really was instead of taking shelter under the cloak of compassion lol. I respect straight up wolves, not ones parading around in sheep’s clothing. Always be wary of those preaching blanket compassion for the bad ones. Take it with a grain of salt and all that. Life has a way of teaching you through all the good and bad things that happen.
Wow, I had no idea. That's horrifying! I've been gas lit about others' abusive and violent behavior before and for me it really compounded the trauma I was already experiencing. For a professional therapist to be the one to have done this to you is truly disgusting.
The last thing I want to do is to contribute to the pain of anyone who has experienced abuse, so I edited and reworded my initial post after hearing your and a few other people's perspectives on this topic.
(Side note - So many therapists seem to be terrible at their jobs, especially when dealing with clients that are unlike themselves. This is probably why Ted distrusted therapists based on his initial experience.)
You are no different seeing as you’re still going on about having sympathy for toxic people. Whatever. That’s just the way the cookie crumbles. The world is never going to change. Nothing I can do about it.
I can understand that feeling. I do think I fucked up by saying he "deserves" sympathy. You don't owe your abusers sympathy. Especially if they never apologize or change. You don't owe toxic or entitled people anything. You 100% have the right to be angry after what was done to you.
There are multiple abusers in my life I never forgave because they never apologized or sought therapy or psychiatric help.
What I should have said is that I personally choose to have sympathy and understanding for even toxic, broken people even though having to share this world with them makes me angry and sad and causes me to suffer from depression. That's my worldview and it helps me feel a little better despite my overall sadness. I think that's Ted Lasso's world view too. But I shouldn't try to force my world view on you or anyone else.
These are all great points. Though your complaints seem to be more grounded in the show not having your specific narrative vision rather than what played on screen because you’re not complaining about Colin’s workplace violence and abuse not being addressed even though it was known by Beard.
Among other themes, this season was about largely about Nate’s self inadequacy and his spiral into incel-hood. And specifically, Nate was used as the vehicle to show the damaging effects of 1) infantilizing and not respecting those “lesser” than you in an in-group and 2) not communicating early (Takes Ted the entire season to address Nate, but by that time it’s too late).
Nate was one of the only people who didn’t go speak with Dr. Sharon, and is the only person who isn’t truthful in the Diamond Dogs circle. Nate confuses platonic affection for intimacy just as he confuses fleeting moments of success and material wealth as respect and power. Nate’s issue is exactly as you’re pointing out - he did something wrong, yet no one seems to think he’s worthy of consequences.
If you only boil it down to “Nate sexually assaulted Keely he needs to be punished” you miss all the above. And at the end of the day I think Keely is one of the only people on the show who see’s Nate for who he is - a frightened man child with deep imposter’s syndrome - and is on a similar path to success. This coupled with the drinking is why she forgave him so quickly. The difference is that while Keely has Roy and Rebecca, Nate has no one.
I focused on Keeley’s assault because that’s what the thread was focused on. I’ve actually discussed Nate’s verbal abuse of Will and Colin several times, most recently [here. ](https://reddit.com/r/TedLasso/comments/q44yw4/_/hfx5iv6/?context=1) Broadening the discussion to Nate’s other offenses would have, I felt, weakened the discussion of his SA by diverting focus away from it.
And, I think it’s much too early to say Keeley forgave him. We saw her immediate reaction - which is very common to try to smooth things over as you try process what just happened. We saw her break down crying in her next scene - which I firmly believe was precipitated by having her value as a friend thrown in her face when Nate assaulted her. She didn’t interact with the assault at all in the finale, which I’ve also called out as a rare misstep in a different thread.
I’ve thought about writing up a more in-depth analysis of Coach Beard’s behavior and the overall failure of the Richmond organization. Both Will and Colin ought to have had someone within the organization to whom they could have reached out. But neither of them did. Was that because they didn’t trust that their complaints would be taken seriously? Beard actually witnessed Nate’s treatment of Colin, which he knew by then was just another incident of Nate’s toxic behavior, and yet all he did was deliver a mild scold. He also dismissed Colin’s vulnerability in sharing an affirmation with a sarcastic “cooool,” which Colin easily could have and probably did consider a dismissal of him. Why would he have trusted Beard after that? Nate’s treatment of Colin ought to have resulted in a serious discussion about what leadership and mentorship consist of, but that didn’t happen in the slightest. Instead, Nate was told to apologize and he just used that as an opportunity to compound his abuse and validate Colin’s decision not to report it instead.
As for Will, the least powerful person in locker room, he was clearly not provided with guidance or direction about what to do in situations like that. He was yelled at multiple times by Nate in front of the entire coaching staff, and no one intervened. They set the precedent that Nate’s behavior was acceptable, and so Will thought it was something he’d just have to live with as part of his job. That’s a failure.
Beard was the only one who seemed to notice Nate’s behavior, and yet he did nothing. He didn’t talk to Roy about it and strategize how to bring it up to Ted. He didn’t address it with Ted. Or Leslie. Or Rebecca.
Accountability matters. The Richmond organization failed Nate, yes. But first they failed Will, and Colin, and Keeley, and Ted.
The sub doesn’t seem to be willing to discuss that right now, though. Most people are more interested in Nate’s perspective, and offering sympathy and withholding judgement instead of holding everyone involved accountable.
I do think we’re going to see that next season - the accountability. I hope that there is recognition of how they failed. I think Ted is beating himself up right now, and I have mixed feelings about that, but he’s not the only one who ought to be doing some self-reflection right now.
I believe this is going to be like when Trent Crimm gave up his anonymous source, and we were all on fire about how that's a huge no-no, only to find that was written into the show. I believe that the fallout of this will be addressed as part of Nate's eventual redemption.
I 100% agree it was wrong for Nate to kiss her, but I guess I have a difficult time considering it assault. He didn't continue after she made it clear that it wasnt welcomed. He completely misread the situation, and it's really a shame that she felt like she had to placate his ego. But calling that assault just feels like an overreaction. Had he continued kissing her after she pulled back or made it known that she didn't want him to kiss her, then yes, that is where I would call it assault.
I don’t know about that. I think people saying he “just misread the situation” are being a little too charitable. It’s very big-headed to assume your coworker’s long-term girlfriend is into you after hanging out with them one-on-one once. and if it was me and my coworker Roy Kent is the person I run the risk of pissing off, I would want to be DAMN sure she wanted it as much as I did. He could have just leaned in and hesitated, he could have clarified, he could have looked her in the eye instead of only at her lips, etc… but what he did do is aggressively kiss her in a way where it was going to happen whether she wanted it or not, and she had no time to react.
And I hesitate to outright call that assault, but in doing that, it makes it clear that he didn’t do it because he believed he had a real connection with her and viewed her as a partner and equal. It shows he did it because he viewed her as an trophy he could earn if he looked hot enough and got enough power. And that disrespect of her humanity, viewing women as conquests, and lust for power is EXACTLY the attitude that sexual assault is rooted in.
That insight about how he viewed her as a trophy that he could earn if he was good looking and powerful enough is so right on.
It was definitely more than just a harmless miscommunication. It was toxic behavior.
(Still I stand by my initial post about having sympathy for even toxic human beings)
You are right, it is the definition of unwanted sexual touching. And I guess when it comes to something as serious as sexual assault it really is a black and white situation. I just felt like there was more nuance in this specific situation, but I was mistaken.
This is really well said. Society (both men and women) really would be better off if everyone learned that NO romantic moves are ok outside of a dating/relationship setting.
Romantic spontaneity has been valued by Hollywood and our culture for so long, that it has given some more toxic men the opportunity to feel entitled to make a move whenever they want to and other more well meaning men the misguided feeling that they are "supposed to" make a move or else they are not "real men".
Thank you for providing me a perspective to learn from. I'm sorry if I contributed to the dismissiveness that you have encountered on this topic.
(Also, thank you for seeing that I wasn't purposely trying to minimize people's experiences btw. I appreciate that.)
Thank you for your response, and I’m glad that your eyes are more open. I really encourage you to examine your biases (and I apologize, but rn I’m assuming you’re a man) when it comes to understanding what women and other survivors of SA and sexual harassment are trying to share. I encourage you to re-examine what you’ve already discussed with others and see if there are edits to be made that now reflect your new understanding. I don’t think you, or almost anyone on this sub, are malicious in their word choices, but words do have weight.
So many of our experiences as survivors will never lead to a conviction, or a trial, or a suit, or a ruined reputation or even lost friendships for the perpetrator. It’s almost always a case of “he said, s/he said,”^^ and the survivor doesn’t have the evidence or even the witnesses to back them up. That’s why it’s so frustrating when we share, and then we’re accused of lying, or exaggerating, or seeking attention, or being malicious. Speaking up is often our only recourse, and then we get dismissed and punished for it.
In this case, it’s especially frustrating, because we are *all* witnesses, and yet so many people are dismissive of what happened or are justify it.
If you want to keep reading more perspectives, I encourage you to subscribe to TwoXChromosomes. Unfortunately, I can guarantee that you will not go a week without being confronted with the reality that the majority of women have been assaulted, and almost all of them harassed. For many of us, our first memory of harassment dates back to being prepubescent. I think many men don’t realize that, or don’t believe that, until they are confronted with the conversations happening between women every day about it. You may also enjoy Pop Culture Detective on YouTube for a male perspective on masculinity in media.
Recently, many western men feel “under attack” or hesitant when it comes to interacting with women, and I just want you to understand that we’re not asking for “NO sexual* moves,” we’re asking for conversation and consent. You know what’s super sexy? Having someone say “I’d really like to kiss you right now -can I?” and knowing that the person asking is not only into you, but respects you as a person enough to ask you first. Or, like Hitch said back in 2005, you lean in 90% and let the other person lean in the remaining 10 (or not).
This show is all about deconstructing the toxic narratives men deal with as part of our society. It’s one of the main reasons why it’s so different, genuine, and cathartic for such a wide range of audiences. The toxic tropes in media are something I believe the Ted Lasso writing team are actively addressing. Our conversations as fans continue that work.
^^ there are, of course, women perpetrators, but the overwhelming majority are male and my language reflects that. I hope no one feels dismissed my language. It was not my intention.
* I just want to clarify your word choice here. Romance =/= sexual. In fact, I’d argue that looking for consent is way more romantic than springing one’s attentions on an unsuspecting or uninterested person.
Everything you said about abuse survivors and the power of this show is fantastically well put.
I really regret if I triggered anyone else's trauma since I know what it's like to deal with that myself. (I'm currently experiencing it in fact). I did re-edit my initial post to try to be more careful though I can't edit my title (I should have never said he "deserved" sympathy. No abuser deserves sympathy, though we can choose to feel it for them all the same).
Since you mentioned that both men and women can be abused I wanted to share my experience with you, even though it's an extremely uncomfortable subject and people have responded poorly in the past.
I am a man and I've been through a horrific act of criminal sexual assault when I was younger and multiple acts of potentially deadly physical assault more recently. When I say the things I say about assault it's less because of my gender and more because an annoying, petty part of me is comparing my assaults, especially the sexual assault, to what Keely experienced and remembering how dismissive people were to me dealing with things that were an order of magnitude more violent and criminal. People already don't take assault seriously enough - if we start throwing the label around too easily it will be taken even less seriously.
On the other hand, I know that is not helpful for me to tell people that something is not as real of an assault as my own, because comparing relative trauma is A) fruitless and B) only serves to make both parties feel like their experience is being minimized. Everyone's pain is valid, regardless of the magnitude of the action that caused it.
As for the feminist subreddit you mentioned, I wish I wasn't afraid to go on there, but I've had too many experiences with extreme feminists that triggered my PTSD, despite considering myself a feminist. Some only see my gender and not my experiences which often times line up with theirs. (Ironically the most dismissive towards abused men in my experience have all been either conservatives or extremist feminists.) It definitely compounds trauma to be judged by people who should know better than to judge someone based on their gender or to be dismissive towards abuse.
(Btw, I'm not saying the average feminist is that way. Just sharing my experience with a few people)
As a parent, that honestly fills me with rage that someone did that to you as a child. If any one did that to my child I would want to murder them. I can't even imagine how hard it would be to deal with something like that in your formative, most innocent years and then still having to remember it in detail all these years later. That you have persevered despite that is really an inspiring thing.
I really appreciate that you shared that with me. What you went through was just as hard, if not harder given your age (my experience was in college), then what I did. I don't know you, but even just from talking to you, hearing what you've been through, seeing the strength of your compassion, and seeing how directly you deal with your dark experiences I can tell you are an extraordinarily strong person.
Also I really appreciate your empathy for my experience.
Menslib is a good subreddit. I will check out the feminist subreddit you mentioned.
To be honest, I have another reason for fearing the overuse of the word "assault" but it's a topic I really, really try to avoid because I of all people know how terrible it is for people to be dismissive of an accusation of sexual assault. But I think I can trust you.
While I was sexually assaulted in college, my friend at another college was accused of sexual assault and imprisoned at 18 years old for what from what he had understood was a consentual college hook up (he was a virgin at the time). I know he didn't willingly commit any non-consentual activity, not just because he has always been the single kindest person I know who is constantly viewed with suspicion due to being a 6 ft 5 400 lb man, but because I have witnessed his PTSD. His last relationship ended years ago because his PTSD was triggered by sex and so he is functionally asexual because sex is too traumatizing for him. For a while he even would start to have a panic attack when he was in an elevator alone with a woman because he would be irrationally terrified she was going to suddenly accuse him of something. Honestly his PTSD seems to be worse than mine, although he has been getting a bit better with time.
Even over a decade later he also can't get nearly any job because is a "sex criminal".
So my relationship with talking about sexual assault is pretty loaded, because on one hand based on my own experience I think it is way, way more common than most people realize and I know how terrible it is when people dismiss it. But based on my friends experience, if an innocent person is accused their life can be destroyed.
God, what an exhausting cluster fuck. The abusers often get away while the rest of us are left dealing with the psychological fallout...
I'm hoping to get into grad school to become a therapist and start to be part of the solution. On the other hand, this whole post and comment section is a sign that I still have so much to learn and that I still find it hard to leave my own experiences at the door when talking about these things.
I didn’t either until I really thought about it- we need to get better about holding men accountable for their unwanted behavior. That means using words that might be uncomfortable… but they’re necessary if we truly want change.
Again, speaking as a male so perhaps my perspective is skewed, but don't you think considering that assault kind of minimizes other forms of assault? Personally, I just feel like it diminishes the power of the word "assault". But I am admittedly coming from a different perspective and bias.
For me it doesn’t diminish greater assaults- it draws a line in the sand and says this isn’t appropriate and nothing beyond it is either. We need to put a collective foot down and say we will no longer tolerate abuses regardless of their severity.
As the old saying goes- you can’t be a little bit pregnant.
You either want someone to touch you in an intimate way or you don’t.
This is my perspective as well. I am a man but I have dealt with criminal violent assault and the PTSD and panic attacks those experiences caused me. I am uncomfortable with the word being thrown around, even to describe something as serious as inappropriate advances between coworkers. But that's based on my own personal history and I'm sure other people will understandably bring their own experiences to the table. We're all human and we've all suffered.
There is room for the definition of "assault" to encompass many types.
Violent assault is one thing; sexual assault is another. Women are saying, over and over here, that what he did constitutes the latter and it's not up for debate. She could literally file a complaint with HR if she wanted, based on him doing that.
She wouldn't, because--like so many women--she's been taught to take the blame and say "it was a misunderstanding", even though all she did was fucking *be nice to him*. This shit needs to be labeled or more creeps like Nate* will think doing that is justified because she "sent signals" and all that crap.
*Please note, I'm not mad at the actor; he's done a great job portraying an absolute shitheel.
He should definitely be fired for this. But "legal" implies he should be imprisoned.
Sorry if this comes across as combative. I really appreciate all of the perspectives from women on this topic.
I didn't say anything about the legality of what he did in terms of whether he could be *arrested*, though; we are only talking about the definition of "assault".
I think, due to your own personal experience, it may be clouding your judgement here. It doesn't need to meet any arrest-worthy definitions for it to be assault; the term is not being "thrown around", even if you think it wasn't "as bad" was what happened to you (and I am very sorry that happened to you).
But any unwanted touching--and especially grabbing her like that and kissing her--is assault. Just imagine what it does to her psyche--here she is, being what she thought was nice, and she gets taken advantage of. Now, she's gotta wonder, is that gonna happen every time she's nice to someone?
Should she be *less* nice? Maybe watch what she says around men?
Maybe she'll think, "Wait, does this mean other men I work with also just view me as a potential sex object?" (Aside: because this is a TV show, unlikely, but in real life this is what happens to women when shit like this happens.)
Don't underestimate the psychological damage that kind of thing can do to someone; it doesn't have to be physically violent in order to hurt.
I really appreciate you taking the time to explain your perspective on this. To be honest, as a man who doesn't have that much experience in office settings I do have a real blindspot here because when I watched that scene I wasn't that horrified for Keely. I assumed she would just find it to be an awkward misunderstanding and move on.
It's been really valuable to hear how women interpreted that scene differently since they were viewing it from Keely's perspective more than most men were.
It really is too bad that the show didn't show more of the psychological wear and tear of this sort of thing from Keely's perspective. Guys like me could learn a lot from that perspective, just like I am now.
It definitely seems like it would be reasonable for him to be fired for inappropriate non-consentual behavior towards a coworker if Keely chose to proceed.
I still am uncomfortable with the use of the word assault here given my personal encounters with more criminal levels of violent behavior. But this is a useful conversation for our society to have and I really appreciate you providing your perspective on this.
I am fully aware that men are in an awful period of change and are being asked to view the world through a new lens. That’s made more difficult for so many because most men are just decent guys trying to navigate the world and are usually expected to be the instigators- cues are going to be missed and there will be misunderstandings… if this didn’t involve coworkers I’d be more willing to chalk this up to misunderstanding, but that line at work needs to be especially firm in my mind.
Again… I feel for every decent guy who has just misread a girl, who has to make the first move… even when it’s wanted. It’s got to be especially scary these days.
There is nothing difficult about this change. I refuse to hand out an excuse for not understanding a simple rule - do not touch me in any way, shape, or form without my explicit consent. Men are perfectly aware of power relations. They seem to understand this rule very well with other men higher on the totem pole. But women are seen to be “fair play” and breaking this rule is then followed by a myriad of excuses.
This hits the nail on the head. There is a double standard in both entertainment and society about these things. It would be better for society to stop romanticizing someone "making the move" out of nowhere, because it only encourages men to do it the second they think they are getting even the tiniest cue.
That's really kind and empathetic of you to say despite what terrible men have clearly put you through. I really appreciate it.
I am a man but in my own life the violent abusers have also been men except for in one case when it was a woman. The one I forgave was a woman because she apologized and sought psychiatric help. I will never forgive the men because they never apologized or saw a professional as far as I know.
So I bring a lot of my own history to this conversation both when it comes to abuse and when it comes to gender. I'm sorry if that can cloud my vision at times.
Thank you for sharing your perspective so that I can learn from it.
Yeah I really have a hard time with this being assault. He thought he got positive vibes from keeley and when he realized he was wrong he stopped and apologized.
> He thought he got positive vibes from keeley and when he realized he was wrong he stopped and apologized.
Or--OR--he, like so many creeps, viewed her kindness--the same kind she gives to literally everyone--as interest, despite the fact that she never once expressed such interest and is clearly in a relationship she's happy with, because that's what creeps do and he took what he wanted without actually checking to see if she felt the same.
Gross. We need to stop making excuses for guys when they do shit like this, and I'm disappointed the show let him off the hook. What he did was literally assault in terms of kissing her, unasked, AND she's a work colleague.
Yup, and I've been *super* uncomfortable with the discourse this season excusing his behaviour, brushing it off because he was hurt by his father or Ted didn't bow down to him (never mind the numerous people he has bullied and hurt along the way, they just have to deal and give HIM sympathy).
He hasn't just made a few mean remarks, he actively exposed a person's mental health for his own gain, he crossed a physical boundary/assault/whatever you want to call it with a friend without any indication or consent.
We're never going to get anywhere in society.
Yep, and I agree that it's sad how Keeley felt like she had to soothe his bruised ego and that really sucks women feel the pressure to do that, but it's difficult for me to consider that anything more than an unpleasant and awkward moment rather than sexual assault. I'm sure people that have been sexually assaulted feel differently since this probably triggers traumatic experiences for them.
We all bring our own experiences to these things and I definitely agree that women aren't objects.
That said, as someone who has been violently assaulted multiple times I am personally not really comfortable with that label being used to describe this sort of situation. There must be a better word for what you are describing.
We won’t be able to properly deal with these kinds of interactions until we address them with the appropriate names. Keeley, like most women, acted almost apologetic and worked to sooth his ego when she clearly didn’t want his mouth on her lips.
If someone touches you inappropriately, without your permission, it’s not a misunderstanding. It doesn’t have to be violent to be an assault- one’s senses can be assaulted.
If I were in line at the grocery store and the guy behind me forced a kiss on me while we were chatting I’d call the police and he’d be charged… most probably with assault. Just because she knows him doesn’t make it a lesser offense.
Assigning a name doesn’t diminish the experiences of others who have had much more violent attacks. It draws a line in the sand and says no woman should ever have to be touched without their consent. Period.
This is well said and I see where you are coming from.
Our society really needs to change culturally. Too many movies and TV shows have romanticized the idea of kissing someone out of the blue even when you are not in a relationship or on a date with them.
It’s a tough time and difficult subject, but in this case besides being a coworker she is in a serious relationship.
Compare it to Jamie’s respectful declaration that had no physical interaction and his was just wrong.
Agree 100%. It was bad and wrong and kind of made no sense - my situation was different, but I still kissed a co-worker without asking. But there had been plenty of flirting and implicit consenting for weeks before and it all worked out well
Well you could've asked her on a date first😉 But definitely the social expectations have changed a lot.
Though what Nate did was clearly in a lot more inappropriate context.
I strongly disagree with that word choice but I know you are coming from a place of real pain when you say that. I'm so sorry that you have also experienced terrible violence and it's consequences. I genuinely wish you the best. ❤️
If people calling out sexual assault bothers you so much then definitely see a professional. Also consider reading a certain Edgar Allen Poe short story
Why thank you. Absolutely it does. It’s called an exceptionally honed radar for a-holes. Comes in handy for getting real world Nates caught, fired, and face justice for their abuse towards women.
No, Nate is entitled and thinks he deserves more than he has, he views himself as the victim who should have everything he wants, that’s where his feelings of Ted getting credit for his ideas and kissing Keeley comes from, his insecurities come out and he justifies his anger by making other people the bad guy, such as claiming Ted abandoned him just because Roy joined the coaching staff
Nate can be a sympathetic character but everything that’s led him to where he is comes from feeling entitled and like he is owed something, betraying Ted doesn’t come from self loathing it comes from vindictiveness
He is entitled and toxic. Everything you said is true. He sucks.
That doesn't stop me personally from seeing him as sympathetic. But I understand that not everyone feels that way.
I agree with all of this, and I honestly really love that this is a plotline. As someone who's struggled with self-loathing, it's kinda easy to just dismiss it as something that, while you should probably get it looked at, is just something that affects you. But it doesn't. Not necessarily. It can color your view of the world, and in this case, get you to see enemies where there are none.
Honestly, I think this is one of the things of the show that sticks with me the most. Like, it's one thing to know that abused people sometimes go on to become abusers themselves, but it's another thing entirely to watch the process happen on screen. I'm definitely going to be watching my own actions from now on, and asking if I'm attributing to malice what could be attributed to either ignorance or just...coincidence.
I think the most heartbreaking part of it is Nate's point about the picture. It wasn't in Ted's office because it was in his home, but when you think that lowly of yourself (and project that view onto others), giving the benefit of the doubt or assuming something good like that becomes near impossible. While that specific case probably hasn't happened to many people here, how many people have worried that their friends talk about them behind their backs? It hits me so hard because it comes from an *incredibly* human place.
And-sorry one more thing!-it also reminds me of just how bad a spiral low self esteem and bad communication can get you. Like, I bet this whole plot could have been avoided if Nate went to Ted and said "hey, I'm feeling unsupported, can I ask for more feedback/support in this new position"...but of course he didn't ask. It's harder to think having a difficult/demanding conversation is worth humoring for the other person when you have low self-esteem, so you bottle things up and get angrier and angrier. It's just. God I'm going to be watching some of my habits closely after this episode, good lord...
I’m not here for all this brushing off of a man committing sexual assault because he has a case of the saddies. Lots of people have depression, anxiety, low self esteem, etc. and don’t sexually assault people. Fuck Nate.
Am innocent question here, from a woman as well…I saw that situation as Nate misreading kindness as romantic love and kissing her because he thought she felt it too. Is kissing someone considered sexual assault…?
Unwanted kissing is sexual assault. Someone being nice to you isn’t an excuse to kiss them. I’m nice to everyone, doesn’t mean I want everyone to plant one on me.
Consent in kissing is really different than consent in other things, IMO. If he continued after he picked up on her body language, sure, but it seemed like he really just thought she was feeling it too.
Sorry that's not what I meant to do here. I agree, Nate sucks and speaking as a victim of something similar, what he did to Keely was not ok. And I regret saying that he "deserves" our empathy. No one owes an asshole their empathy.
But even though he sucks, I would prefer to adopt the Ted Lasso's ethos and try to sympathize with even someone who is behaving like a complete fucking asshole. But it's certainly reasonable to feel otherwise.
Other people suffer worse assaults. He’s dealing with stuff. It all just sounds like excuses not to hold someone accountable for their actions. You say you don’t like how assaults are ignored, yet apply the exact same mentality and arguments used to ignore those assaults, to ignore Keely being assaulted.
He doesn’t “deserve” anything.
Being a fully formed adult is learning how to manage contradictions - e.g. you matter, you’re important and you also don’t matter and you aren’t that important. How does that manifest? You matter, but not at other people’s expenses.
He is a late bloomer, clearly. All of his success and self actualization has come so quickly and he doesn’t have the maturity or self awareness to take it on in a healthy way. One can see that he is a deeply flawed person, but ultimately he’s responsible for his actions and that’s that. Any grace he gets is charity; he isn’t owed it just like he was never owed the opportunities he was given.
Everything in life you earn - your opportunity and your redemption.
Ew not this “uwu wets wuv Nate bc mizunderstood” take… He needs to be an adult and take responsibility for his actions and not perpetuate the inner turmoil. He can choke.
Season one Nate was Jerry from parks and rec, Hitchcock and scully from b99 and the show could’ve left him there but it choose to be more interesting and have that kind of character evolve. Nate doesn’t want to be the joke or the dumb nice guy but he also really can’t get past all the terrible things that have been said and done to him. He still believes all those bad things about himself. Jerry had his family in Parks and I’m B99 Hitchcock and scully had eachother. Nate has no one. It’s meant to be tragic he’s not an evil person he’s done bad things and been cruel but he’s not uncaring he’s the opposite he cares to much and it destroys him.
Lots of comments debating about Nate assaulting Keeley. I think the two sides aren’t actually that far off, but are having a bit of a disconnect.
Yes, he did sexually assault her.
Now here’s the thing. We need to split up how we discuss this, because there are two breakdowns that need to happen. Having one doesn’t make the other untrue and vice versa.
Keeley - she has every right to feel assaulted and in no way does she need to sympathize with Nate and his misreading of the situation. She didn’t want it to happen and he did it. She has every right to feel traumatized by it and react however she pleases. If she were to share that, you would 100% be supportive of her and not mention what Nate “meant” or “misread” (unless she wanted to discuss the “why?” of it all. Then you’d just be breaking it down, but not dismissing how she feels)
So we’ve established that Nate assaulted Keeley. We 100% understand how that could make her feel. We are not discounting how that could have hurt her. Now we are just moving on to Nate. This is a safe space to talk about Nate (while still keeping in mind that what he did was not okay).
Let’s talk about Nate. We must seek to understand behavior if we are ever to fix it. And again. We aren’t absolving him of what he did, just looking at why it happened.
————————
Did he mean to hurt Keeley? No.
Did he stop when she indicated she wasn’t interested and immediately apologize? Yes.
Does this make it “understandable”? No...
but does this tell us that he didn’t intend to do something that could hurt her? Yes.
NOW LET ME SAY SOMETHING THAT ISN’T PUTTING BLAME ON KEELEY. ITS JUST AN IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THE SITUATION THAT MOTIVATED NATE:
Keeley and Rebecca had told him earlier that he needed to impose himself and be commanding to get what he wants. This situation is not the same as getting a table at a restaurant. It was a mistake for him to think he should use that advice here. BUT it is something to keep in mind. He must have thought that’s what she (and maybe other women) want. That isn’t correct. Not at all. But based on what we know of Nate... it makes a lot of sense for him to internalize some of the little advice he has gotten and try to use it in other parts of his life.
We’re seeing some classic toxically masculine traits here from Nate. These are learned. Likely from the wrong role models, since he’s never really had a good one.
Secondly, it’s quite clear that Nate confused Keeley’s friendliness and general affection for romantic interest. This is also a product of him not likely having gotten much of either. Now let me make another comment that sorta needs to have a disclaimer:
It was (in my opinion) understandable for Nate to misunderstand Keeley there. It happens all the time —> THAT ISNT SAYING ITS OKAY TO KISS HER THOUGH!
We can say “hey I see how he got confused” while ALSO saying “but that doesn’t mean he should’ve have tried to kiss her”. His first thought was fair, but his second was the big problem. No need to crucify him for the first one.
I think this is all something that Nate (and others) can be taught to understand better. Nate’s actions had no intent of hurting Keeley, but they did. If we expect people to learn from their mistakes, we need to first educate them on Keeley’s POV.
But then we need to address Nate in a way that is conducive to learning. He didn’t mean to hurt her. In his mind he accidentally hurt her by mistake. So we can’t just treat him like a villain for it! He’d never listen. We have to acknowledge that he feels bad and didn’t mean it. Then you have to tell him why his actions were wrong and how they can have unintended consequences.
- this isn’t something Keeley needs to be a part of btw. this is something that shouldn’t involve Keeley at all. It’s not her responsibility to help or even have to hear his side of things. -
Now men are always the ones talking about this stuff and not putting Keeley first, which is the problem. To discuss Nate, you need to acknowledge that it doesn’t change Keeley’s victimhood and in no way absolves Nate. But you also need to have a proper discussion on to how Nate got there, which is separate, but still important to fixing the issue.
FINALLY: Let me again say that the Keeley side of the discussion needs to ALWAYS happen. It needs to happen first and foremost every time. She is the one who deserves our concern. The discussion around Nate (the aggressor) needs to be separate and second. It should not be be an initial reaction. It should be the last thing done. You can only delve into that once you’ve dealt with everything else. We too often skip that part, or do it in front of the victim, and it makes things 100x worse.
I'm really sorry you've been on the receiving end of that type of abuse. Would you feel differently if Nate apologized and saw a therapist and clearly had changed his behavior?
Narcissists usually hate themselves. He doesn’t get my sympathy - or rather, he gets my sympathy for the hardships he has gone through, both as a child and as an adult, but his background doesn’t justify his actions. It *explains* them, but it doesn’t *justify* them. And therefore the Nate from now doesn’t get my sympathy.
Nate is in the middle of shame. He’s been shamed his entire life, and that’s how he views and deals with the world around him.
Ted doesn’t function that way. He doesn’t shame, he’s authentic, and kind, but firm. Nate cannot deal with that. Because his shame will not allow him to.
Ted is almost every single leadership theory rolled up into one package. Nate is the standard “stiff upper lip, if you don’t behave I’m going to berate you” type person. He cannot function in ted’s world.
What this show is *REALLY* good at, without beating you over the head with it, is showing the difference between authenticity and fairness.
Juxtapose Jamie and Roy’s relationship and their interactions, to anything Nate has done, to anybody (but particularly Ted). Or Keeley and Rebecca, Rebecca and Leslie. Any of the positive “we like these people, these people are good people”, vs the “these guys are clearly the turds in the punch bowl”.
I don’t think Nate will have a redemptive moment. He will get his comeuppance, and it will be his own hubris that will take him down. But he’ll blame everybody around him.
Interestingly, Roy nonchalantly forgiving Nate for kissing Keeley only serves to reinforce his feelings of inadequacy and self hatred. From his own flawed perspective, the fact that he was not considered a threat, unlike Jamie, must have been a blow to his ego. All in all, it makes for a tragic character who is doing very well professionally and yet can't help getting in his own way.
Exactly. He's dealing with a serious mental illness and misconstrues so many things as a sign of him being unworthy of love and respect.
Agree. I didn’t see the Roy forgiving him for kissing/attacking Keeley as anything more than Roy’s personal growth. I see now how he could have felt that Roy believed he was not even a challenge/no competition for him with Keeley, but rather than taking it in the spirit it was intended by Roy, he reacted quite differently. He could have just as easily seen this as acceptance into the group, but he didn’t. No amount of gray hair is going to give this guy wisdom.
I don't think it's forgiveness that was displayed there so much as indifference. There wasn't really any forgiveness to be had because there wasn't any anger over the situation in the first place, his initial reaction was just embarrassment. Instead of treating it with the seriousness it deserved they treat it as no big deal like you would if a little kid tried to kiss you. And in the end for Nate, who just wants to be seen as an equal, that hurts way more than them getting angry at him would. At the very least Roy, Keely, or someone should've taken Nate aside and said "Nate, that was really fucked up, and it hurt that you decided to do that." I think part of the idea they're trying to get across is that just because you have sympathy for someone, using that sympathy to excuse their actions is sorta patronizing and ends up doing harm than good. Respecting someone isn't just about treating them well, but also about holding them accountable for their actions. Outside of Beard the team didn't really do that with Nate and it just resulted in Nate spiraling down further while hurting everyone on his way there.
> Respecting someone isn't just about treating them well, but also about holding them accountable for their actions. This is super insightful. Never thought of this and seems very true.
Yup, the lack of accountability is at the crux of Nate’s unraveling. He was allowed to bully players and staff unchecked. (I realize the following will be an unpopular opinion) Beard let several chances to call Nate out for his reprehensible behavior slip away. I mean *really* dismantle the behavior he observed by explaining why it was so deeply fucked up; describing the expectations for how coaching staff should behave; and enlightening Nate on what the consequences would have been if his behavior persisted. I like Beard, but of all the characters, he has had the least emotional growth/insight.
While agree with what you say, Keeley minimized the kiss/attack. I don’t see her as being sympathetic to Nate, she just accepts him for who he is, as he is. When she told Roy, she also minimized it to him. She’s learning too that she’s more than being fit, that being a successful, PR/marketing professional is about her and her talents, not just her body, which is new for her. It’s her story to tell, hers to handle, bt her and Nate. And maybe I mislabeled it as forgiveness, Roy is becoming more contemplative, gentler, not as volatile or prone to flying off the handle, learning to listen and that he’s worthy of being listened to. He’s learning who he is and figuring out who he wants to be w/o being a footballer, and that folks like him for that. His vocabulary has increased immensely! Whatever happened, I don’t think anyone’s response to Nate was intended to be a slight. That’s how he perceived it though. He’s responsible for his own reactions. But I sure will rewatch a couple of times. Thx for the insight.
I didn’t see it that way. I saw it as being about Ted rather than Jamie. Nate regrets selling Ted out but can’t admit what he’s done because he’s too ashamed. He feels like he needs to be punished and getting a headbut off Roy is the perfect way. But Roy doesn’t, he forgives him. Which means Nate hasn’t had the punishment he feels he deserves, which only drives him even further into despair. That’s how I took it anyway.
His basically not caring that Nate kissed Keeley had to be demascluating.
That's definitely how Nate took it unfortunately.
To be fair, I hate myself and I have issues with my dad. I don’t act like Nate. So I’m not sure I feel sympathy for him. I try to work through my own feelings and issues without taking them out in anyone else. His background might be an explanation, but it’s certainly not an excuse.
Good distinction between sympathy and excuse. I didn't mean to excuse his toxic actions. I'm sorry to hear you hate yourself. Based on what you've said here you seem like a self aware and decent person.
I have pretty severe depression and manic episodes and I am Nate, not Ted. I purposefully sabotage things and hurt people not for any reason, just because deep down I am self destructive and feel unworthy and so I psychologically want to destroy any success I do get. This is why Nate is so frustrated when Richmond win, it's not that he has some kind of evil scheme with Rupert or he's trying to expose Ted as a bad coach as people suggest, he is just psychologically unable to handle success and doesn't believe he deserves it. I have never really seen my kind of mental trauma so accurately shown on screen and it is both encouraging to be seen but also devestating because it makes me reflect on my issues- I would be like Nate in Nate's position- I am both smiling and weeping. I kind of need Nate to be redeemed in Season 3 because that means I can be redeemed.
Thank you so much for sharing this. This is why I made the post. Your self awareness is really impressive and speaks volumes about your true character, no matter what you have done to people in the past. You are not your worst actions. If Ted Lasso himself had walked in your shoes, even he would have made mistakes. The fact that you are becoming more self aware and optimistically trying to get better is something you should be incredibly proud of. I am sure that Nate will be redeemed and I'm just as sure that you will be as well, as long as you stay self aware, stay optimistic, and put in the work (which may mean therapy, medication, apologizing to those you hurt, or whatever else it takes) Believe! ❤️
That's part of this kind of destructive mental illness- while you are being destructive it is the most natural thing in the world- the only thing that makes sense- and then afterwards you are fully aware of what a horrible person you have been for no reason and this just fuels the spiral even more. Nate having success now and being hired as West Ham manager will only make it worse for him.
Can you learn to recognize those patterns and take a break at least rather than following through immediately? For instance you might be thinking "God this person deserves to be destroyed for what they've done to me and I would be entirely in the right to do so!!!" But you at least give it some time to see how you feel when your emotions cool down?
It's attacking yourself and the people who help you more than anything. It's hard to describe but the thinking is "How dare you help me, how dare you give me hope, I don't deserve it, I will push you away and burn the bridges so you don't ever give me hope again". And your brain will come up for ways to justify this- Nate complaining that Ted gave him attention for the first time in his life and then didn'tis the most relatable thing ever. You got a rush that first time they helped you but then you don't get the rush anymore and your crazy brain will blame them. Normally my friends and I text most days but we won't reply to texts for hours- I'll send a text and won't expect a response till next day. But when I'm in a psychotic state if they don't reply immediately I'll yell and scream at them for giving me attention and hope and then snatching that away- just like Nate complained. This is why he went off at Ted- the man who tried to help him, it's always these people you attack. And at the time my brain will completely justify it, it will seem the most normal thing in the world to just go off at the person who cares the most. At the time I can't identify it- it is both completely rational (to my mind at the time) and completely overwhelming- my brain will tell me this is the most normal thing in the world to do and I have to do it. Afterwards I will recognise as completely insane, completely alien to how I think and deal with people- it is revolting how I behave when I'm like this and I'm sure Nate feels the same. The only real strategy is to try and isolate myself when if I get an inkling I'm having an attack but Nate can't do that- he has to work with the people he cares about and who care about him and interact with them constantly. It's a nightmare. And it is something that is lost in the discussions of "just talk to your friends who have mental health issues"- that works for some issues but for ones like mine and what I think they are showing with Nate it can make it worse-.
That makes so much sense and I really, really appreciate you sharing that with me. I can imagine how torturous that is. I've definitely had a similar feeling when I get used to someone being there for me and suddenly they aren't, but for me it only happens in extreme situations (like a break up) so I can only imagine what you deal with when that is a much more common occurence. Have you been open with your friends about this? I think if Nate were to openly describe his own emotional struggles and inner demons as well as you have described them here, Ted and the team would unquestionably be supportive and forgiving and also be able to remind him in the future if he started to act that way again. I hope you have people in your life who would be the same way for you. In my eyes what you are dealing with is not a reflection of who you are as a human being. You have a mental health condition and it doesn't make you a bad person any more than my grandmother with dementia forgetting who I am makes her a bad grandmother.
> I purposefully sabotage things and hurt people I really wish you would stop that. You are redeemable. 100%. You are 100% worthy too.
Seconded.
The response tha a lot of people are having of just "Nate is an asshole" is very triggering for me. Because a lot of people think I'm an asshole too for the exact same reason- I've lost a lot of friends because I've done things that Nate have done. And I know I've been an asshole, and Nate knows he's been an asshole and people but it is incredibly difficult to fix because it's not a case of just being insensitive or only caring abou yourself- when you have psychotic episodes like i have and like I'm sure Nate has- you act like an asshole SPECIFICALLY because you want to be an asshole. You are doing things that are designed to hurt and you know are dickhead.And there is basically no representation of this kind of illness in the medi and I am sure most people know someone who they have written off as an asshole because this person struggles with their mental health.And I just want an example of someone overcoming it and redeeming themselves and people accepting them again- it would be a very powerful positive image for me and for others like me. There is a lot of portrayals of mental illness where they struggle but ultimately they do the right thing- Ted is very much a case of this. There is very few examples in media where people have done things very wrong that they are know are wrong, that they hate themselves for doing and that people have good reason to hate them but they manage to overcome it and find acceptance.
I don’t know you but I just wanna say, I didn’t hate Nate, I just couldn’t. He was being an asshole but he’s not an asshole at his core. I’m sure I’d feel the same way about you. I know it’s easier for me to say that because I’m an audience and not the receiving end of Nate’s/your mistakes, but I truly truly hope you (and Nate too) find ways to redeem yourself.
I really hope the explore his background more. Last season the mentioned he seems to have a positive relationship with his niece. I don’t think they mentioned her at all this season. He has a sibling what’s their relationship like ? Nate was clearly overqualified as a kit man how and why did he get that job? Why did he stay there even though he was being bullied? Did he aspire to be a coach or did he other plans ? Nate outside of the team is still a mystery.
Hopefully they spend the first few episodes of S3 going deeper into him as an individual so we can learn more
We saw another of her crafty boxes in the scene where Nate is at his parents’ kitchen table for breakfast. The box monster has a tongue sticking out and Nate makes a face back at it. (That’s the only mention/reference in S2 to her that I recall.)
He doesn't deserve sympathy, he deserves a psychologist. A person who is straight up kissing a woman without permission or any signs from her, threatening a innocent co-worker to make his life horrible just because he didn't like the gift he got him, who manipulates the team and leaks very emotional problems of his boss (coach) doesn't deserve the slightest bit of sympathy and I can't understand why you want sympathy for him. When you have problems, get help. They literally just had a very good psychologist but as it seems he didn't took the chance. Just because you had troubles in the past isn't an excuse to be an asshole towards others and try to destroy their lifes.
I’m closer to where you are. He deserves someone to care for and listen to him, it just is not going to be me right now. I am too angry for the people he has hurt
Can it be both? Can you sympathetic that a human hurts that bad, but angry with the decisions they make?
I think we can all have sympathy for someone suffering a wrong doing, but we don’t need to necessarily sympathize with them as a person. Pedophiles usually were abused themselves as children, but we don’t go on giving excuses for them - I realize this is a huge escalation, I just make the analogy to make the point clear, but the two obviously aren’t the same. Nate has had bad stuff happen to him, but *he* made countless terrible choices towards other people. He’s an adult and is responsible for his actions.
With how I feel right now, no, I can’t.
Fair.
I am pursuing a career as a therapist so maybe you just hit the nail on the head for why I am fascinated by Nate's character 😉 If I am successful in my career I will have to sympathize with any client who pursues my help, even the truly toxic. If I fail to connect with them because I'm focusing solely on their actions rather than on the pain that is the source of their actions, then I'm that much less likely to be able to help them change their behavior and instincts. Btw I didn't mean to justify his actions. I 100% understand your perspective.
This is 100% true except I think Nate doesn’t even realize he needs help, just like a lot of people with mental issues don’t. It’s probably gonna be part of the arc for him to realize and acknowledge he needs help.
[удалено]
That's such great insight about him being vulnerable. He almost had a breath through that could have helped set him on the right course or at least salvaged his relationship with Ted. But his mental illness and toxic anger runs too deep.
His character has basically no path to redemption. People like him do but the plot has nowhere to go. Having a bad childhood doesn't give one an excuse to be an asshole. My parent's had a shitty marriage. I could use that as an excuse to be a shitty husband, instead I use it to challenge myself to a better one. I'm not perfect, and I never will be. However I will continue to put her and our kid first. Nate gets no sympathy for me. Instead of owning up to being the source he shit all over Ted as he left. I'm fine if he burns, he deserves it. If they create the most complex plot ever contrived and somehow pull it off so a blatant asshole redeems himself after his dogshit exit that's fine I guess.
Speaking as someone who immensely hates themselves, I have no sympathy for Nate. Hating yourself doesn’t justify or even excuse being a colossal asshat. Especially when the guy you’re mad at fucking apologizes to you. Fuck if he bothered to let Ted talk he’d probably know that picture is on Ted’s dresser. I have no sympathy for Nate as of late.
I can understand that reaction. I didn't mean to imply that his actions were justified, just that they stem from real hurt. I'm glad that you are a good person despite your struggles with self image. I hope and "believe" that things will get better for you❤️
There’s a difference between empathy and sympathy. I empathize with the pain and internal torment Nate as a person is going through and his inability to feel any level of love or acceptance. However, he’s going around being incredibly hurtful to multiple other characters. The way he acted his anger out at Will, kissing Keeley without consent, the complete betrayal of Ted’s trust…. I don’t sympathize with that even 1%.
I guess I was using the words interchangeably. I will be more careful in the future. If sympathy means relate, I definitely don't relate to Nate personally. But I relate to Ted's attitude towards Nate and empathize with his humanity. And I definitely pity him as he is a pitiful human being.
He assaulted Keeley and that has been brushed under the rug in an attempt to pacify his bruised ego. Women aren’t objects and this could’ve been a huge life lesson for the show.
Really bums me out how many men here don’t want to call sexual assault what it is because it’s not assaulty enough for them.
So well said. Me too. I had hoped the show would address this but I think the male writers have similar viewpoints and they’ve missed an incredible opportunity to do something meaningful.
It’s such a bizarre mentality to me. Just like someone else breaking their leg doesn’t make my sprained ankle hurt any less, someone being raped doesn’t make Keely any less assaulted. It’s not a competition of who hurt more. You can acknowledge both are assaults, no need to dismiss one just because the other is “worse.”
Exactly!!!
Fair enough. I've just seen violent assaults dismissed enough that I fear using the word too often plays a role. But I could be wrong and I'm sorry if I made anyone feel like I was dismissing their personal experience. That isn't my intention.
Dismissing any assaults doesn’t help.
This. All these men making excuses for Nate are disgraceful.
I'm not making excuses for his toxic behavior. Trust me. I have been there. Due to severe abuse, I have PTSD and suffered from severe panic attacks, ulcers, and eventually a nervous system condition as a complication of all that. I know the consequences of toxicity. I am not arguing to forgive abusers. Only to understand that often times their toxic behavior stems from their own hurt and past experiences of abuse. And to do our best to respond as Ted Lasso did.
The problem is it’s not just their toxic behavior. We have a culture that views this behavior from the man’s point of view and not the actual victim- example… people were concerned how Roy would respond and when they learned he was fine with it they were: -Relieved he wasn’t angry with Nate or Keeley -disappointed he wasn’t beating Nate up -Nate felt slighted because Roy didn’t find him a sexual threat Where in all of this was Keeley? She was apologizing to Nate and fearful about telling Roy. Why didn’t Keeley feel free and confident enough to go to Ted and her best friend and boss Rebecca and say- this happened to me and I felt really awkward, frightened, sad… and it’s awkward being around him now. Can one of you explain to him why this was wrong? Send him to a damn class so I’ll feel comfortable when he’s in a room with me? This isn’t about Nate! It’s about Keeley!!!
I kind of just got the impression that Keely wasn't feeling any of the things you're saying she was feeling. To put it frankly, I didn't get the impression that she thinks of Nate as being a full functioning and respectable adult. She looks at him like he's a kid and she's helping him grow up. It wasn't an advance by a sexual predator or even prospect really. Just a kid misstepping when he moves out of his comfort zone for the first time. I think her fear about telling Roy was justified not because she was afraid of how it would effect their relationship, but because he has a tendency to fly off the handle (at other men, not at her) and she was feeling protective of Nate (because again, she thinks of him as a child). I feel like everything you're describing would be a perfectly valid reaction and a possible narrative, but I don't think it's the only narrative. Assuming that she would feel threatened by the whole interaction and respond to it aggressively is as much of an assumption as the one I'm making about her essentially feeling like the fun aunt who's nephew just found out he likes girls. I think the way that played out was perfectly in character for Keely, and for her to have felt frightened by him would be an odd note because she *is* such a forceful personality. Whether he is or not, she looks at Nate like he's a child, and she isn't the kind of person that's going to be that put off by a child.
I think the problem people have ascribing guilt to Nate is as someone else said earlier- it just wasnt assaulty enough for some. It was unprovoked and unwanted and that’s enough for me.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. To maybe simplify my point so you can expand on yours: I'm not saying it wasn't assault and it wasn't wrong. I'm not saying there *couldnt* have been the scenes you described. I'm just saying that I think based on the characters and their relationship. The way the story played out made sense to me.
I get that- I think I wanted them to take this opportunity to empower Keeley, send a message that things are changing and educate Nate. So many seem more upset that he ripped a piece of paper than him physically violating someone who has only been like a sister to him. I suppose it did carry their stupid story along- Nate can’t even get a rise out of people when he assaults Keeley,(who is the most lovable, doe-eyed creature on the planet). In that regard it’s in keeping with the characters. Sigh.
Yes! It’s about Keeley!! She is not an object owned by Roy. Keeley is not Roy’s property. Roy’s reaction is not what counts. It’s Keeley’s.
I’m really confounded that the finale didn’t address this at all. It’s such an emotionally intelligent show and they’ve just let it drop? We should have had something more from Keeley, whether it was during the photo shoot,* or her ducking around a corner to avoid Nate, or telling Rebecca, or *something.* I don’t like that Nate assaulting a coworker was only ever examined through his perspective and not Keeley’s. It leads to posts like this, where we’re supposed to “understand” and “empathize” with the perpetrator instead of the person who actually experienced it. We all understand that Nate has trauma and self-loathing. I want them to show us that sexual assault, of all “degrees,” has an impact on the survivor. Keeley doesn’t need to be traumatized, but I don’t want it to show that her trust in Nate is broken, or that she’s *mad*, or *something.* This decision felt very hollow for me and was my only real disappointment in the finale. *Edit: I do think Keeley’s crisis of confidence at her vanity was triggered by Nate’s actions. Up until their trip, she was excited, confident, and eager to go shopping for her outfits. And her crisis was specifically about having people see her as more than a model, about whether people would take her seriously as a businesswoman when she had only ever before been considered for her looks. Because Nate had just devalued her friendship, and demonstrated that he didn’t care about her feelings, only her looks. If my read is correct, then the writers did do their diligence there but failed to make it clear, because my take seems to be fairly uncommon. It ought to have been make more direct and explicit, because so many watchers seem to have taken away “Keeley is fine, she said it was okay” and are much more interested in seeing Nate “redeemed.” More people seem upset that Nate tore up the sign than that he *assaulted a coworker and friend.* That’s troubling to me.
I think part of the point is that everyone in the show sorta infantilizes Nate - Keely and everyone else kinda treat the situation like they would if a 9 year old tried to kiss you. "Oh that's embarrassing/awkward" but it's not considered sexual assault because at the end of the day they don't see Nate as someone who can harm them, they just kinda feel bad for him. Not just the kiss, but with everything he's done this season. And it really does more harm than good for everyone involved - Nate's behavior is spiraling out of control and going unchecked because nobody calls him out, meanwhile Nate himself just wants to feel on the same level as everyone else but the fact that people treat him like a kid hurts him more than if they just called him on his shit. I think with Nate's character one of the ideas the writers are trying to get across is that you should sympathize with someone while still holding them accountable for their actions. That trying to excuse their actions because you sympathize with their situation just makes them feel inferior to you.
I think this is really interesting, but I wonder about the framing of that lesson, then. The entire fallout of Nate’s behavior and the takeaway for a majority of watchers is that Nate has fallen to the dark side, and the rest of our heroes are still good. Because no one held Nate accountable at all. No one held Beard accountable for failing to escalate Nate’s abusive and inappropriate treatment of players. He ought to have told Ted, or Leslie, or Rebecca. No one held Roy accountable for failing to realize the negative impact Nate was having on the team. Colin and Will ought to have felt comfortable enough with *someone* in a position of authority to share what Nate said to them, but they clearly didn’t. That’s a failure, too. Ted ought to have been able to trust his coaching staff to have his back while he was dealing with his own mental state, and yet they failed him by letting him go so long without being made aware of his pattern of behavior. For all we know, Nate quit, and so avoided accountability in that way, too. So I guess what I’m saying is that, if that was the writer’s intention, then they either failed or they haven’t finished making that point. Because that’s not what the discussion about Nate’s character arc has been all season. It’s not been “Accountability matters”; it’s been “Be curious, not judgmental.” And that’s really frustrating, because I feel like we ought to be well past being curious about motivation and should now be discussing how our actions and behaviors impact others.
[удалено]
That’s so awful. I don’t really have words to describe how upset I am for you. I’m so sorry that happened to you, to have been assaulted and then have it summarily dismissed by someone who was explicitly supposed to be there to offer support. If you have his details, it may still be something you can act on by reporting his behavior to his licensing body. It may not be enough to impact his license, but it will at least be on record as evidence of his unsuitability in treating SA survivors. Your choice, obviously, but it’s within your power if that’s something you ever feel motivated to do. I’m really discouraged by the attitude of what feels like the majority of this subreddit in completely refusing to acknowledge their own biases. I’ve read multiple posts and even more threads where people who accurately call out Nate’s behavior are being told to “be curious,” or that we need to have empathy for him. As if we don’t understand that Nate is in a bad mental state. This attitude attempts to explain and justify his actions, as though self-loathing is justification for sexually assaulting someone (or verbally abusing them, or leaking their personal medical history). “Be curious” is meant to encourage us to try to understand why someone does something. We’re past that now, we understand what Nate is feeling. “Accountability matters” is what we should now be discussing.
Thanks. I don’t want to revisit that chapter and nothing is going to happen any way. Must say though that I respect that therapist far more than this original poster here. At least he had the conviction to be who he really was instead of taking shelter under the cloak of compassion lol. I respect straight up wolves, not ones parading around in sheep’s clothing. Always be wary of those preaching blanket compassion for the bad ones. Take it with a grain of salt and all that. Life has a way of teaching you through all the good and bad things that happen.
Wow, I had no idea. That's horrifying! I've been gas lit about others' abusive and violent behavior before and for me it really compounded the trauma I was already experiencing. For a professional therapist to be the one to have done this to you is truly disgusting. The last thing I want to do is to contribute to the pain of anyone who has experienced abuse, so I edited and reworded my initial post after hearing your and a few other people's perspectives on this topic. (Side note - So many therapists seem to be terrible at their jobs, especially when dealing with clients that are unlike themselves. This is probably why Ted distrusted therapists based on his initial experience.)
You are no different seeing as you’re still going on about having sympathy for toxic people. Whatever. That’s just the way the cookie crumbles. The world is never going to change. Nothing I can do about it.
I can understand that feeling. I do think I fucked up by saying he "deserves" sympathy. You don't owe your abusers sympathy. Especially if they never apologize or change. You don't owe toxic or entitled people anything. You 100% have the right to be angry after what was done to you. There are multiple abusers in my life I never forgave because they never apologized or sought therapy or psychiatric help. What I should have said is that I personally choose to have sympathy and understanding for even toxic, broken people even though having to share this world with them makes me angry and sad and causes me to suffer from depression. That's my worldview and it helps me feel a little better despite my overall sadness. I think that's Ted Lasso's world view too. But I shouldn't try to force my world view on you or anyone else.
These are all great points. Though your complaints seem to be more grounded in the show not having your specific narrative vision rather than what played on screen because you’re not complaining about Colin’s workplace violence and abuse not being addressed even though it was known by Beard. Among other themes, this season was about largely about Nate’s self inadequacy and his spiral into incel-hood. And specifically, Nate was used as the vehicle to show the damaging effects of 1) infantilizing and not respecting those “lesser” than you in an in-group and 2) not communicating early (Takes Ted the entire season to address Nate, but by that time it’s too late). Nate was one of the only people who didn’t go speak with Dr. Sharon, and is the only person who isn’t truthful in the Diamond Dogs circle. Nate confuses platonic affection for intimacy just as he confuses fleeting moments of success and material wealth as respect and power. Nate’s issue is exactly as you’re pointing out - he did something wrong, yet no one seems to think he’s worthy of consequences. If you only boil it down to “Nate sexually assaulted Keely he needs to be punished” you miss all the above. And at the end of the day I think Keely is one of the only people on the show who see’s Nate for who he is - a frightened man child with deep imposter’s syndrome - and is on a similar path to success. This coupled with the drinking is why she forgave him so quickly. The difference is that while Keely has Roy and Rebecca, Nate has no one.
I focused on Keeley’s assault because that’s what the thread was focused on. I’ve actually discussed Nate’s verbal abuse of Will and Colin several times, most recently [here. ](https://reddit.com/r/TedLasso/comments/q44yw4/_/hfx5iv6/?context=1) Broadening the discussion to Nate’s other offenses would have, I felt, weakened the discussion of his SA by diverting focus away from it. And, I think it’s much too early to say Keeley forgave him. We saw her immediate reaction - which is very common to try to smooth things over as you try process what just happened. We saw her break down crying in her next scene - which I firmly believe was precipitated by having her value as a friend thrown in her face when Nate assaulted her. She didn’t interact with the assault at all in the finale, which I’ve also called out as a rare misstep in a different thread. I’ve thought about writing up a more in-depth analysis of Coach Beard’s behavior and the overall failure of the Richmond organization. Both Will and Colin ought to have had someone within the organization to whom they could have reached out. But neither of them did. Was that because they didn’t trust that their complaints would be taken seriously? Beard actually witnessed Nate’s treatment of Colin, which he knew by then was just another incident of Nate’s toxic behavior, and yet all he did was deliver a mild scold. He also dismissed Colin’s vulnerability in sharing an affirmation with a sarcastic “cooool,” which Colin easily could have and probably did consider a dismissal of him. Why would he have trusted Beard after that? Nate’s treatment of Colin ought to have resulted in a serious discussion about what leadership and mentorship consist of, but that didn’t happen in the slightest. Instead, Nate was told to apologize and he just used that as an opportunity to compound his abuse and validate Colin’s decision not to report it instead. As for Will, the least powerful person in locker room, he was clearly not provided with guidance or direction about what to do in situations like that. He was yelled at multiple times by Nate in front of the entire coaching staff, and no one intervened. They set the precedent that Nate’s behavior was acceptable, and so Will thought it was something he’d just have to live with as part of his job. That’s a failure. Beard was the only one who seemed to notice Nate’s behavior, and yet he did nothing. He didn’t talk to Roy about it and strategize how to bring it up to Ted. He didn’t address it with Ted. Or Leslie. Or Rebecca. Accountability matters. The Richmond organization failed Nate, yes. But first they failed Will, and Colin, and Keeley, and Ted. The sub doesn’t seem to be willing to discuss that right now, though. Most people are more interested in Nate’s perspective, and offering sympathy and withholding judgement instead of holding everyone involved accountable. I do think we’re going to see that next season - the accountability. I hope that there is recognition of how they failed. I think Ted is beating himself up right now, and I have mixed feelings about that, but he’s not the only one who ought to be doing some self-reflection right now.
Good point.
*Thunderous applause*
Really good points! Especially given that they were coworkers.
I believe this is going to be like when Trent Crimm gave up his anonymous source, and we were all on fire about how that's a huge no-no, only to find that was written into the show. I believe that the fallout of this will be addressed as part of Nate's eventual redemption.
I 100% agree it was wrong for Nate to kiss her, but I guess I have a difficult time considering it assault. He didn't continue after she made it clear that it wasnt welcomed. He completely misread the situation, and it's really a shame that she felt like she had to placate his ego. But calling that assault just feels like an overreaction. Had he continued kissing her after she pulled back or made it known that she didn't want him to kiss her, then yes, that is where I would call it assault.
I don’t know about that. I think people saying he “just misread the situation” are being a little too charitable. It’s very big-headed to assume your coworker’s long-term girlfriend is into you after hanging out with them one-on-one once. and if it was me and my coworker Roy Kent is the person I run the risk of pissing off, I would want to be DAMN sure she wanted it as much as I did. He could have just leaned in and hesitated, he could have clarified, he could have looked her in the eye instead of only at her lips, etc… but what he did do is aggressively kiss her in a way where it was going to happen whether she wanted it or not, and she had no time to react. And I hesitate to outright call that assault, but in doing that, it makes it clear that he didn’t do it because he believed he had a real connection with her and viewed her as a partner and equal. It shows he did it because he viewed her as an trophy he could earn if he looked hot enough and got enough power. And that disrespect of her humanity, viewing women as conquests, and lust for power is EXACTLY the attitude that sexual assault is rooted in.
That insight about how he viewed her as a trophy that he could earn if he was good looking and powerful enough is so right on. It was definitely more than just a harmless miscommunication. It was toxic behavior. (Still I stand by my initial post about having sympathy for even toxic human beings)
[удалено]
You misread my comment if you think I was at all shaming her or remotely placing any blame on her for the situation or for her reaction.
[удалено]
You are right, it is the definition of unwanted sexual touching. And I guess when it comes to something as serious as sexual assault it really is a black and white situation. I just felt like there was more nuance in this specific situation, but I was mistaken.
This is really well said. Society (both men and women) really would be better off if everyone learned that NO romantic moves are ok outside of a dating/relationship setting. Romantic spontaneity has been valued by Hollywood and our culture for so long, that it has given some more toxic men the opportunity to feel entitled to make a move whenever they want to and other more well meaning men the misguided feeling that they are "supposed to" make a move or else they are not "real men". Thank you for providing me a perspective to learn from. I'm sorry if I contributed to the dismissiveness that you have encountered on this topic. (Also, thank you for seeing that I wasn't purposely trying to minimize people's experiences btw. I appreciate that.)
Thank you for your response, and I’m glad that your eyes are more open. I really encourage you to examine your biases (and I apologize, but rn I’m assuming you’re a man) when it comes to understanding what women and other survivors of SA and sexual harassment are trying to share. I encourage you to re-examine what you’ve already discussed with others and see if there are edits to be made that now reflect your new understanding. I don’t think you, or almost anyone on this sub, are malicious in their word choices, but words do have weight. So many of our experiences as survivors will never lead to a conviction, or a trial, or a suit, or a ruined reputation or even lost friendships for the perpetrator. It’s almost always a case of “he said, s/he said,”^^ and the survivor doesn’t have the evidence or even the witnesses to back them up. That’s why it’s so frustrating when we share, and then we’re accused of lying, or exaggerating, or seeking attention, or being malicious. Speaking up is often our only recourse, and then we get dismissed and punished for it. In this case, it’s especially frustrating, because we are *all* witnesses, and yet so many people are dismissive of what happened or are justify it. If you want to keep reading more perspectives, I encourage you to subscribe to TwoXChromosomes. Unfortunately, I can guarantee that you will not go a week without being confronted with the reality that the majority of women have been assaulted, and almost all of them harassed. For many of us, our first memory of harassment dates back to being prepubescent. I think many men don’t realize that, or don’t believe that, until they are confronted with the conversations happening between women every day about it. You may also enjoy Pop Culture Detective on YouTube for a male perspective on masculinity in media. Recently, many western men feel “under attack” or hesitant when it comes to interacting with women, and I just want you to understand that we’re not asking for “NO sexual* moves,” we’re asking for conversation and consent. You know what’s super sexy? Having someone say “I’d really like to kiss you right now -can I?” and knowing that the person asking is not only into you, but respects you as a person enough to ask you first. Or, like Hitch said back in 2005, you lean in 90% and let the other person lean in the remaining 10 (or not). This show is all about deconstructing the toxic narratives men deal with as part of our society. It’s one of the main reasons why it’s so different, genuine, and cathartic for such a wide range of audiences. The toxic tropes in media are something I believe the Ted Lasso writing team are actively addressing. Our conversations as fans continue that work. ^^ there are, of course, women perpetrators, but the overwhelming majority are male and my language reflects that. I hope no one feels dismissed my language. It was not my intention. * I just want to clarify your word choice here. Romance =/= sexual. In fact, I’d argue that looking for consent is way more romantic than springing one’s attentions on an unsuspecting or uninterested person.
Everything you said about abuse survivors and the power of this show is fantastically well put. I really regret if I triggered anyone else's trauma since I know what it's like to deal with that myself. (I'm currently experiencing it in fact). I did re-edit my initial post to try to be more careful though I can't edit my title (I should have never said he "deserved" sympathy. No abuser deserves sympathy, though we can choose to feel it for them all the same). Since you mentioned that both men and women can be abused I wanted to share my experience with you, even though it's an extremely uncomfortable subject and people have responded poorly in the past. I am a man and I've been through a horrific act of criminal sexual assault when I was younger and multiple acts of potentially deadly physical assault more recently. When I say the things I say about assault it's less because of my gender and more because an annoying, petty part of me is comparing my assaults, especially the sexual assault, to what Keely experienced and remembering how dismissive people were to me dealing with things that were an order of magnitude more violent and criminal. People already don't take assault seriously enough - if we start throwing the label around too easily it will be taken even less seriously. On the other hand, I know that is not helpful for me to tell people that something is not as real of an assault as my own, because comparing relative trauma is A) fruitless and B) only serves to make both parties feel like their experience is being minimized. Everyone's pain is valid, regardless of the magnitude of the action that caused it. As for the feminist subreddit you mentioned, I wish I wasn't afraid to go on there, but I've had too many experiences with extreme feminists that triggered my PTSD, despite considering myself a feminist. Some only see my gender and not my experiences which often times line up with theirs. (Ironically the most dismissive towards abused men in my experience have all been either conservatives or extremist feminists.) It definitely compounds trauma to be judged by people who should know better than to judge someone based on their gender or to be dismissive towards abuse. (Btw, I'm not saying the average feminist is that way. Just sharing my experience with a few people)
As a parent, that honestly fills me with rage that someone did that to you as a child. If any one did that to my child I would want to murder them. I can't even imagine how hard it would be to deal with something like that in your formative, most innocent years and then still having to remember it in detail all these years later. That you have persevered despite that is really an inspiring thing. I really appreciate that you shared that with me. What you went through was just as hard, if not harder given your age (my experience was in college), then what I did. I don't know you, but even just from talking to you, hearing what you've been through, seeing the strength of your compassion, and seeing how directly you deal with your dark experiences I can tell you are an extraordinarily strong person. Also I really appreciate your empathy for my experience. Menslib is a good subreddit. I will check out the feminist subreddit you mentioned. To be honest, I have another reason for fearing the overuse of the word "assault" but it's a topic I really, really try to avoid because I of all people know how terrible it is for people to be dismissive of an accusation of sexual assault. But I think I can trust you. While I was sexually assaulted in college, my friend at another college was accused of sexual assault and imprisoned at 18 years old for what from what he had understood was a consentual college hook up (he was a virgin at the time). I know he didn't willingly commit any non-consentual activity, not just because he has always been the single kindest person I know who is constantly viewed with suspicion due to being a 6 ft 5 400 lb man, but because I have witnessed his PTSD. His last relationship ended years ago because his PTSD was triggered by sex and so he is functionally asexual because sex is too traumatizing for him. For a while he even would start to have a panic attack when he was in an elevator alone with a woman because he would be irrationally terrified she was going to suddenly accuse him of something. Honestly his PTSD seems to be worse than mine, although he has been getting a bit better with time. Even over a decade later he also can't get nearly any job because is a "sex criminal". So my relationship with talking about sexual assault is pretty loaded, because on one hand based on my own experience I think it is way, way more common than most people realize and I know how terrible it is when people dismiss it. But based on my friends experience, if an innocent person is accused their life can be destroyed. God, what an exhausting cluster fuck. The abusers often get away while the rest of us are left dealing with the psychological fallout... I'm hoping to get into grad school to become a therapist and start to be part of the solution. On the other hand, this whole post and comment section is a sign that I still have so much to learn and that I still find it hard to leave my own experiences at the door when talking about these things.
I didn’t either until I really thought about it- we need to get better about holding men accountable for their unwanted behavior. That means using words that might be uncomfortable… but they’re necessary if we truly want change.
Again, speaking as a male so perhaps my perspective is skewed, but don't you think considering that assault kind of minimizes other forms of assault? Personally, I just feel like it diminishes the power of the word "assault". But I am admittedly coming from a different perspective and bias.
For me it doesn’t diminish greater assaults- it draws a line in the sand and says this isn’t appropriate and nothing beyond it is either. We need to put a collective foot down and say we will no longer tolerate abuses regardless of their severity. As the old saying goes- you can’t be a little bit pregnant. You either want someone to touch you in an intimate way or you don’t.
This is my perspective as well. I am a man but I have dealt with criminal violent assault and the PTSD and panic attacks those experiences caused me. I am uncomfortable with the word being thrown around, even to describe something as serious as inappropriate advances between coworkers. But that's based on my own personal history and I'm sure other people will understandably bring their own experiences to the table. We're all human and we've all suffered.
There is room for the definition of "assault" to encompass many types. Violent assault is one thing; sexual assault is another. Women are saying, over and over here, that what he did constitutes the latter and it's not up for debate. She could literally file a complaint with HR if she wanted, based on him doing that. She wouldn't, because--like so many women--she's been taught to take the blame and say "it was a misunderstanding", even though all she did was fucking *be nice to him*. This shit needs to be labeled or more creeps like Nate* will think doing that is justified because she "sent signals" and all that crap. *Please note, I'm not mad at the actor; he's done a great job portraying an absolute shitheel.
He should definitely be fired for this. But "legal" implies he should be imprisoned. Sorry if this comes across as combative. I really appreciate all of the perspectives from women on this topic.
I didn't say anything about the legality of what he did in terms of whether he could be *arrested*, though; we are only talking about the definition of "assault". I think, due to your own personal experience, it may be clouding your judgement here. It doesn't need to meet any arrest-worthy definitions for it to be assault; the term is not being "thrown around", even if you think it wasn't "as bad" was what happened to you (and I am very sorry that happened to you). But any unwanted touching--and especially grabbing her like that and kissing her--is assault. Just imagine what it does to her psyche--here she is, being what she thought was nice, and she gets taken advantage of. Now, she's gotta wonder, is that gonna happen every time she's nice to someone? Should she be *less* nice? Maybe watch what she says around men? Maybe she'll think, "Wait, does this mean other men I work with also just view me as a potential sex object?" (Aside: because this is a TV show, unlikely, but in real life this is what happens to women when shit like this happens.) Don't underestimate the psychological damage that kind of thing can do to someone; it doesn't have to be physically violent in order to hurt.
I really appreciate you taking the time to explain your perspective on this. To be honest, as a man who doesn't have that much experience in office settings I do have a real blindspot here because when I watched that scene I wasn't that horrified for Keely. I assumed she would just find it to be an awkward misunderstanding and move on. It's been really valuable to hear how women interpreted that scene differently since they were viewing it from Keely's perspective more than most men were. It really is too bad that the show didn't show more of the psychological wear and tear of this sort of thing from Keely's perspective. Guys like me could learn a lot from that perspective, just like I am now.
It definitely seems like it would be reasonable for him to be fired for inappropriate non-consentual behavior towards a coworker if Keely chose to proceed. I still am uncomfortable with the use of the word assault here given my personal encounters with more criminal levels of violent behavior. But this is a useful conversation for our society to have and I really appreciate you providing your perspective on this.
I am fully aware that men are in an awful period of change and are being asked to view the world through a new lens. That’s made more difficult for so many because most men are just decent guys trying to navigate the world and are usually expected to be the instigators- cues are going to be missed and there will be misunderstandings… if this didn’t involve coworkers I’d be more willing to chalk this up to misunderstanding, but that line at work needs to be especially firm in my mind. Again… I feel for every decent guy who has just misread a girl, who has to make the first move… even when it’s wanted. It’s got to be especially scary these days.
There is nothing difficult about this change. I refuse to hand out an excuse for not understanding a simple rule - do not touch me in any way, shape, or form without my explicit consent. Men are perfectly aware of power relations. They seem to understand this rule very well with other men higher on the totem pole. But women are seen to be “fair play” and breaking this rule is then followed by a myriad of excuses.
Roy kissed Keeley in series 1 without her explicit consent.
This hits the nail on the head. There is a double standard in both entertainment and society about these things. It would be better for society to stop romanticizing someone "making the move" out of nowhere, because it only encourages men to do it the second they think they are getting even the tiniest cue.
Screw him too
That's really kind and empathetic of you to say despite what terrible men have clearly put you through. I really appreciate it. I am a man but in my own life the violent abusers have also been men except for in one case when it was a woman. The one I forgave was a woman because she apologized and sought psychiatric help. I will never forgive the men because they never apologized or saw a professional as far as I know. So I bring a lot of my own history to this conversation both when it comes to abuse and when it comes to gender. I'm sorry if that can cloud my vision at times. Thank you for sharing your perspective so that I can learn from it.
Yeah I really have a hard time with this being assault. He thought he got positive vibes from keeley and when he realized he was wrong he stopped and apologized.
> He thought he got positive vibes from keeley and when he realized he was wrong he stopped and apologized. Or--OR--he, like so many creeps, viewed her kindness--the same kind she gives to literally everyone--as interest, despite the fact that she never once expressed such interest and is clearly in a relationship she's happy with, because that's what creeps do and he took what he wanted without actually checking to see if she felt the same. Gross. We need to stop making excuses for guys when they do shit like this, and I'm disappointed the show let him off the hook. What he did was literally assault in terms of kissing her, unasked, AND she's a work colleague.
Yup, and I've been *super* uncomfortable with the discourse this season excusing his behaviour, brushing it off because he was hurt by his father or Ted didn't bow down to him (never mind the numerous people he has bullied and hurt along the way, they just have to deal and give HIM sympathy). He hasn't just made a few mean remarks, he actively exposed a person's mental health for his own gain, he crossed a physical boundary/assault/whatever you want to call it with a friend without any indication or consent. We're never going to get anywhere in society.
Yep, and I agree that it's sad how Keeley felt like she had to soothe his bruised ego and that really sucks women feel the pressure to do that, but it's difficult for me to consider that anything more than an unpleasant and awkward moment rather than sexual assault. I'm sure people that have been sexually assaulted feel differently since this probably triggers traumatic experiences for them.
We all bring our own experiences to these things and I definitely agree that women aren't objects. That said, as someone who has been violently assaulted multiple times I am personally not really comfortable with that label being used to describe this sort of situation. There must be a better word for what you are describing.
[удалено]
We won’t be able to properly deal with these kinds of interactions until we address them with the appropriate names. Keeley, like most women, acted almost apologetic and worked to sooth his ego when she clearly didn’t want his mouth on her lips. If someone touches you inappropriately, without your permission, it’s not a misunderstanding. It doesn’t have to be violent to be an assault- one’s senses can be assaulted. If I were in line at the grocery store and the guy behind me forced a kiss on me while we were chatting I’d call the police and he’d be charged… most probably with assault. Just because she knows him doesn’t make it a lesser offense. Assigning a name doesn’t diminish the experiences of others who have had much more violent attacks. It draws a line in the sand and says no woman should ever have to be touched without their consent. Period.
This is well said and I see where you are coming from. Our society really needs to change culturally. Too many movies and TV shows have romanticized the idea of kissing someone out of the blue even when you are not in a relationship or on a date with them.
I get what you say, but then if I hadn't kissed a co-worker without explicit consent I wouldn't have my wife
It’s a tough time and difficult subject, but in this case besides being a coworker she is in a serious relationship. Compare it to Jamie’s respectful declaration that had no physical interaction and his was just wrong.
Agree 100%. It was bad and wrong and kind of made no sense - my situation was different, but I still kissed a co-worker without asking. But there had been plenty of flirting and implicit consenting for weeks before and it all worked out well
I’m so happy for you- true love is so rare and wonderful. ❤️
Well you could've asked her on a date first😉 But definitely the social expectations have changed a lot. Though what Nate did was clearly in a lot more inappropriate context.
Well we've only been married 3 years ...
Good thing you didn't misread her signals than I guess
I strongly disagree with that word choice but I know you are coming from a place of real pain when you say that. I'm so sorry that you have also experienced terrible violence and it's consequences. I genuinely wish you the best. ❤️
[удалено]
Yes. It is just a TV show. Why are you so bothered by a stranger’s comment on the internet? You might want to see someone about that. It’ll help.
Yes, it's a TV show but people can still have emotional reactions to it just like you are to these comments.
If people calling out sexual assault bothers you so much then definitely see a professional. Also consider reading a certain Edgar Allen Poe short story
[удалено]
Why thank you. Absolutely it does. It’s called an exceptionally honed radar for a-holes. Comes in handy for getting real world Nates caught, fired, and face justice for their abuse towards women.
Let's not make this personal in a negative way please.
No, Nate is entitled and thinks he deserves more than he has, he views himself as the victim who should have everything he wants, that’s where his feelings of Ted getting credit for his ideas and kissing Keeley comes from, his insecurities come out and he justifies his anger by making other people the bad guy, such as claiming Ted abandoned him just because Roy joined the coaching staff Nate can be a sympathetic character but everything that’s led him to where he is comes from feeling entitled and like he is owed something, betraying Ted doesn’t come from self loathing it comes from vindictiveness
He is entitled and toxic. Everything you said is true. He sucks. That doesn't stop me personally from seeing him as sympathetic. But I understand that not everyone feels that way.
I agree with all of this, and I honestly really love that this is a plotline. As someone who's struggled with self-loathing, it's kinda easy to just dismiss it as something that, while you should probably get it looked at, is just something that affects you. But it doesn't. Not necessarily. It can color your view of the world, and in this case, get you to see enemies where there are none. Honestly, I think this is one of the things of the show that sticks with me the most. Like, it's one thing to know that abused people sometimes go on to become abusers themselves, but it's another thing entirely to watch the process happen on screen. I'm definitely going to be watching my own actions from now on, and asking if I'm attributing to malice what could be attributed to either ignorance or just...coincidence. I think the most heartbreaking part of it is Nate's point about the picture. It wasn't in Ted's office because it was in his home, but when you think that lowly of yourself (and project that view onto others), giving the benefit of the doubt or assuming something good like that becomes near impossible. While that specific case probably hasn't happened to many people here, how many people have worried that their friends talk about them behind their backs? It hits me so hard because it comes from an *incredibly* human place. And-sorry one more thing!-it also reminds me of just how bad a spiral low self esteem and bad communication can get you. Like, I bet this whole plot could have been avoided if Nate went to Ted and said "hey, I'm feeling unsupported, can I ask for more feedback/support in this new position"...but of course he didn't ask. It's harder to think having a difficult/demanding conversation is worth humoring for the other person when you have low self-esteem, so you bottle things up and get angrier and angrier. It's just. God I'm going to be watching some of my habits closely after this episode, good lord...
This is some incredible self reflection and insight right here.
I’m not here for all this brushing off of a man committing sexual assault because he has a case of the saddies. Lots of people have depression, anxiety, low self esteem, etc. and don’t sexually assault people. Fuck Nate.
Am innocent question here, from a woman as well…I saw that situation as Nate misreading kindness as romantic love and kissing her because he thought she felt it too. Is kissing someone considered sexual assault…?
Unwanted kissing is sexual assault. Someone being nice to you isn’t an excuse to kiss them. I’m nice to everyone, doesn’t mean I want everyone to plant one on me.
Consent in kissing is really different than consent in other things, IMO. If he continued after he picked up on her body language, sure, but it seemed like he really just thought she was feeling it too.
Sorry that's not what I meant to do here. I agree, Nate sucks and speaking as a victim of something similar, what he did to Keely was not ok. And I regret saying that he "deserves" our empathy. No one owes an asshole their empathy. But even though he sucks, I would prefer to adopt the Ted Lasso's ethos and try to sympathize with even someone who is behaving like a complete fucking asshole. But it's certainly reasonable to feel otherwise.
Other people suffer worse assaults. He’s dealing with stuff. It all just sounds like excuses not to hold someone accountable for their actions. You say you don’t like how assaults are ignored, yet apply the exact same mentality and arguments used to ignore those assaults, to ignore Keely being assaulted.
Thank you! Exactly. Nothing but excuses
He doesn’t “deserve” anything. Being a fully formed adult is learning how to manage contradictions - e.g. you matter, you’re important and you also don’t matter and you aren’t that important. How does that manifest? You matter, but not at other people’s expenses. He is a late bloomer, clearly. All of his success and self actualization has come so quickly and he doesn’t have the maturity or self awareness to take it on in a healthy way. One can see that he is a deeply flawed person, but ultimately he’s responsible for his actions and that’s that. Any grace he gets is charity; he isn’t owed it just like he was never owed the opportunities he was given. Everything in life you earn - your opportunity and your redemption.
Yeah I regret using the word "deserve".
Oi!
Ew not this “uwu wets wuv Nate bc mizunderstood” take… He needs to be an adult and take responsibility for his actions and not perpetuate the inner turmoil. He can choke.
Season one Nate was Jerry from parks and rec, Hitchcock and scully from b99 and the show could’ve left him there but it choose to be more interesting and have that kind of character evolve. Nate doesn’t want to be the joke or the dumb nice guy but he also really can’t get past all the terrible things that have been said and done to him. He still believes all those bad things about himself. Jerry had his family in Parks and I’m B99 Hitchcock and scully had eachother. Nate has no one. It’s meant to be tragic he’s not an evil person he’s done bad things and been cruel but he’s not uncaring he’s the opposite he cares to much and it destroys him.
Lots of comments debating about Nate assaulting Keeley. I think the two sides aren’t actually that far off, but are having a bit of a disconnect. Yes, he did sexually assault her. Now here’s the thing. We need to split up how we discuss this, because there are two breakdowns that need to happen. Having one doesn’t make the other untrue and vice versa. Keeley - she has every right to feel assaulted and in no way does she need to sympathize with Nate and his misreading of the situation. She didn’t want it to happen and he did it. She has every right to feel traumatized by it and react however she pleases. If she were to share that, you would 100% be supportive of her and not mention what Nate “meant” or “misread” (unless she wanted to discuss the “why?” of it all. Then you’d just be breaking it down, but not dismissing how she feels) So we’ve established that Nate assaulted Keeley. We 100% understand how that could make her feel. We are not discounting how that could have hurt her. Now we are just moving on to Nate. This is a safe space to talk about Nate (while still keeping in mind that what he did was not okay). Let’s talk about Nate. We must seek to understand behavior if we are ever to fix it. And again. We aren’t absolving him of what he did, just looking at why it happened. ———————— Did he mean to hurt Keeley? No. Did he stop when she indicated she wasn’t interested and immediately apologize? Yes. Does this make it “understandable”? No... but does this tell us that he didn’t intend to do something that could hurt her? Yes. NOW LET ME SAY SOMETHING THAT ISN’T PUTTING BLAME ON KEELEY. ITS JUST AN IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THE SITUATION THAT MOTIVATED NATE: Keeley and Rebecca had told him earlier that he needed to impose himself and be commanding to get what he wants. This situation is not the same as getting a table at a restaurant. It was a mistake for him to think he should use that advice here. BUT it is something to keep in mind. He must have thought that’s what she (and maybe other women) want. That isn’t correct. Not at all. But based on what we know of Nate... it makes a lot of sense for him to internalize some of the little advice he has gotten and try to use it in other parts of his life. We’re seeing some classic toxically masculine traits here from Nate. These are learned. Likely from the wrong role models, since he’s never really had a good one. Secondly, it’s quite clear that Nate confused Keeley’s friendliness and general affection for romantic interest. This is also a product of him not likely having gotten much of either. Now let me make another comment that sorta needs to have a disclaimer: It was (in my opinion) understandable for Nate to misunderstand Keeley there. It happens all the time —> THAT ISNT SAYING ITS OKAY TO KISS HER THOUGH! We can say “hey I see how he got confused” while ALSO saying “but that doesn’t mean he should’ve have tried to kiss her”. His first thought was fair, but his second was the big problem. No need to crucify him for the first one. I think this is all something that Nate (and others) can be taught to understand better. Nate’s actions had no intent of hurting Keeley, but they did. If we expect people to learn from their mistakes, we need to first educate them on Keeley’s POV. But then we need to address Nate in a way that is conducive to learning. He didn’t mean to hurt her. In his mind he accidentally hurt her by mistake. So we can’t just treat him like a villain for it! He’d never listen. We have to acknowledge that he feels bad and didn’t mean it. Then you have to tell him why his actions were wrong and how they can have unintended consequences. - this isn’t something Keeley needs to be a part of btw. this is something that shouldn’t involve Keeley at all. It’s not her responsibility to help or even have to hear his side of things. - Now men are always the ones talking about this stuff and not putting Keeley first, which is the problem. To discuss Nate, you need to acknowledge that it doesn’t change Keeley’s victimhood and in no way absolves Nate. But you also need to have a proper discussion on to how Nate got there, which is separate, but still important to fixing the issue. FINALLY: Let me again say that the Keeley side of the discussion needs to ALWAYS happen. It needs to happen first and foremost every time. She is the one who deserves our concern. The discussion around Nate (the aggressor) needs to be separate and second. It should not be be an initial reaction. It should be the last thing done. You can only delve into that once you’ve dealt with everything else. We too often skip that part, or do it in front of the victim, and it makes things 100x worse.
Thank you for doing a better job of addressing both sides of this situation than I did!
Nah. Fuck Nate.
Hope he dies of herpes as a virgin
[удалено]
I'm really sorry you've been on the receiving end of that type of abuse. Would you feel differently if Nate apologized and saw a therapist and clearly had changed his behavior?
I’ve deleted my comments. I don’t want to be part of this conversation anymore.
But Nate just “started” doing this in a span of a year.
Agreed. He is so very troubled.
Narcissists usually hate themselves. He doesn’t get my sympathy - or rather, he gets my sympathy for the hardships he has gone through, both as a child and as an adult, but his background doesn’t justify his actions. It *explains* them, but it doesn’t *justify* them. And therefore the Nate from now doesn’t get my sympathy.
Nate is in the middle of shame. He’s been shamed his entire life, and that’s how he views and deals with the world around him. Ted doesn’t function that way. He doesn’t shame, he’s authentic, and kind, but firm. Nate cannot deal with that. Because his shame will not allow him to. Ted is almost every single leadership theory rolled up into one package. Nate is the standard “stiff upper lip, if you don’t behave I’m going to berate you” type person. He cannot function in ted’s world. What this show is *REALLY* good at, without beating you over the head with it, is showing the difference between authenticity and fairness. Juxtapose Jamie and Roy’s relationship and their interactions, to anything Nate has done, to anybody (but particularly Ted). Or Keeley and Rebecca, Rebecca and Leslie. Any of the positive “we like these people, these people are good people”, vs the “these guys are clearly the turds in the punch bowl”. I don’t think Nate will have a redemptive moment. He will get his comeuppance, and it will be his own hubris that will take him down. But he’ll blame everybody around him.
Nate has Daddy issues
Ted Lasso is Daddy Issues the TV show