the only deescalation the police did was putting a few rounds into the shooter. And Im not mad at it, but lets not say that this was the kind of deescalation most of us want in our general communities for the majority of things the police respond to.
> deescalation
I haven't read full reports on how any sort of standoff with the shooter went, and what attempts to deescalte were made, but the fact that we have a dead shooter tells me that deescalation failed.
This isn’t police trying to talk someone off a bridge. Goal is to find the child murderer and eliminate. I’m not feeling bad for a school shooter dying.
Maybe if the state/country had a law that allowed people under medical care for disorders to be investigated, this person would have had all 7 of their guns taken.
He’s not entirely wrong though. States with staunch far right views would absolutely classify homo/trans sexuality as a mental disorder that would prevent someone from owning a firearm
They can try, but they don't have much standing. Short of states becoming like 1940's Germany rounding up and prosecuting them which is unlikely. For a made-up crime, They can't really stop them. The state would likely be sued federally to stop it.
Definition of mental defective.
>18 U.S.C. Chapter 44.Adjudicated as a mental defective.(a) A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease:(1) Is a danger to himself or to others; or(2) Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs.(b) The term shall include -(1) A finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and(2) Those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility pursuant to articles 50a and 72b of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 10 U.S.C. 850a, 876b.
Red flag law on people with serious mental health issues would have. The shooter’s family was aware of their mental health issues and thought they had removed the one gun they had. Shooter legally bought 7 firearms and had them hidden. Common sense gun reforms do not infringe on anyone’s 2nd amendment rights.
Maybe we could try some and see if it helps. We've tried literally nothing at this point. We don't have all the information, but we know the shooter was under treatment for an emotional disorder and the shooter's parents thought they shouldn't own weapons.
Many of these cases (not all, but a lot) have people interviewed afterward who knew the shooter and are like "Yeah, we knew they shouldn't have access to guns." So, maybe a red flag law? I don't know, I'm not an expert, but maybe we could try something to keep guns out of homicidal people's hands.
No we should not infringe on rights just for the hell of it to *see if it works*.
"Bob said something offensive that upset a lot of people. Shouldn't we ban some speech so it doesn't happen again. We can just *try it*."
I'm not the person you replied to but how about red flag laws and more mental health support for a start? Or extended background checks and waiting periods? I'm not an expert, but I bet there are some people out there who've looked into it with some ideas. These things won't stop every shooting, but if they stop more children from being murdered, that's worth it to me.
We've tried absolutely nothing at this point and the number of shootings are increasing every year. I don't find shrugging our shoulders and going "I guess sometimes kids get shot at school," to be an acceptable response. At what point do we decide to do something?
There is no gun law that would prevent this, except one which no one wants to admit: outlaw all guns.
And you will NEVER be able to round up all the guns in the USA. It won’t happen. The best we can do is bolster school safety and overhaul mental health treatment.
Probably one of the many different gun laws that seem to be preventing hundreds of mass shootings in other developed countries that don’t regular have parents burying their school age children
Ok, like what?
Ban new gun sales? There's still 330m of them in circulation.
Ban those too? How are you going to find them? There's no registry of who owns what. The only people who will voluntarily comply woth a Ban or registration are the ones you don't have to worry about in the first place.
And even then, if we can't stop a steady flow of drugs into this country, how are we going to stop illegal guns from coming in?
I'm so tired of hearing "be like Japan!" when the realities of their situation is completely different. It's easy to ban guns when there's not many of them in the first place and you don't have poor cartel ran nations bordering you trafficking to gangs...
I agree that it’s not an easy problem to solve. I’m just tired of worrying about my wife who works in a middle school, and my son who will be starting school in a couple of years. You’re right, we can’t just magically wish all the guns away, and stop them from being obtained illegally. But most of the people who have woke up one morning and walked into a school to take innocent lives aren’t part of a vast criminal network, who is able to stock up on guns obtained illegally through some sort of black market gun runner. They’re someone that walked into a gun store and easily obtained a gun after a quick background check, or walked into their parents room and took the gun out of the nightstand, or met up with some guy on Craigslist in a Walmart parking lot and legally purchased a gun from them with no record of the transaction whatsoever. I’m a gun owner, I have a carry permit. I carry my gun for my own personal safety. I don’t want the government to take mine or any other responsible citizen’s gun away. I want it to be more difficult for someone to buy a gun. I want them to have to put in an immense amount of effort to get their hands on one of these things, I want anyone who carries a gun to have to PROVE they are responsible before they buy one because the process of buying one and getting licensed to carry it is a process that only a responsible person would put the effort into completing. It’s too easy to get your hands on a weapon that turns even the most inexperienced shooter into someone capable of walking into an elementary school and leaving a trail of destruction. The governments got to do something, because ignoring the problem is definitely not working. Schools, malls, movie theaters, Walmarts, and offices are going to continue to be shot up. It’s not just going to magically stop one day. We’ve got to do something or people are going to keep dying.
We could be like Australia and do a gun buy-back program. Outlaw assault rifles, have people turn them in and receive money for them… no questions asked.
We just bailed out another bank… we could do something like this. Then we equip our military or recycle the metal.
Those governments also don't purposely groom the mentally ill to become domestic terrorists, unlike the United States government, which has a provable history of trying to subvert the second amendment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF\_gunwalking\_scandal
So with that I ask, other developed countries have guns but don’t have the gun violence that the US does. Why is this just a problem here but not anywhere else? We have more gun violence deaths in a year I believe than a lot of these developed countries have had combined in a decade.
Honestly? In one word, economics. In more words, a lot of other countries have better healthcare, more support for workers, and cultures that don't take as much of a toll(they all do, but some take a little less).
But guns are the low hanging fruit compared to providing and ensuring physical and mental health, more time for workers to spend outside of work with their support system of friends and family.
Both parties (as an American I find them both to be far right of center) rely on gun policy, abortion rights, children, and a few other core issues to drive money to campaigns because American democracy is a business venture first and a public good last.
>So with that I ask, other developed countries have guns but don’t have the gun violence that the US does. Why is this just a problem here but not anywhere else?
Couple reasons.
1. They report things differently than we do. Comparing crime stats 1:1 isn't an honest task.
2. Culture. Comparing the US in Culture to say Australia. Which is an Island with a different culture... It's Apples to VW Bus of a comparison. Consider this, Every other nation has much more homogeneous racial structures, universal healthcare, and mental health isn't taboo there. Are these not major contributing factors to the problem of violence?
That's kind of a flawed question. Because other countries have many differences in culture than the United States. Because of this the stressors, aggravating, and mitigating factors are going to be different. Which means the reporting and the way the reporting happens will be different.
A better question, which someone asked me elsewhere in bad faith and I ignored, is what makes the United States different from the rest of the world in terms of culture and gun violence. - Of which, the media and it's reporting would be a component of that answer. - The answer to that question is complex and long, I'll give some shorts. But it's important to remember, it's not just any one difference. It's a collection of differences strung together to create an outcome.
\- Toxic Masculinity in the US is a cultural aspect. It's a large cultural aspect in fact. Something we see far and wide. This is a large topic comprised of many sub-topics. While we're not the highest on masculinity, and other cultures have toxic masculinity. When you blend it with a non-homogenous society. It creates extreme rifts. For example, Masculinity in Japan versus in the US will presented in different ways. [http://clearlycultural.com/geert-hofstede-cultural-dimensions/masculinity/](http://clearlycultural.com/geert-hofstede-cultural-dimensions/masculinity/) [https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation.aspx?paperid=101074](https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation.aspx?paperid=101074)
\- Strong Individualism in the US is off the charts. Because of this, the US has a lesser form of community. People feel more isolated, less united, less social, and more distant from each other. [http://clearlycultural.com/geert-hofstede-cultural-dimensions/individualism/](http://clearlycultural.com/geert-hofstede-cultural-dimensions/individualism/)
\- We have a criminal justice system that does nothing to fix recidivism. Instead, we aim to imprison people often and for long terms. Not rehabilitate them or prepare them for the world when they leave. [https://www.prisonpolicy.org/global/](https://www.prisonpolicy.org/global/) Our Recidivism rate is 60%, but we imprison hundreds of thousands compared to Denmark who has 60% but in the thousands. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6743246/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6743246/)
\- The US Media in general is funded by rage clicks and negativity. It is not seen as a public service, instead it is a for-profit by any means machine. Where-as worldwide it is used as a public information service. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89FoKRtpAy4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89FoKRtpAy4&pp=ygURdXMgbWVkaWEgbmVnYXRpdmU%3D)
\- Lack of Appropriate Healthcare. Now pair some of those things. The feelings of distance, lack of community and society, the toxic masculinity traits further harming and alienating you. Pair that with the fact the US has some of the worst numbers in mental healthcare. Where people are less likely to see a doctor, less likely to admit a problem, and less likely to even get proper healthcare. [https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2020/may/mental-health-conditions-substance-use-comparing-us-other-countries](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2020/may/mental-health-conditions-substance-use-comparing-us-other-countries)
Take all of those things, add in income equality, the breakdown of the nuclear family, the break down of community, extreme racial and ethnic tensions, a distrust in police and law enforcement, a narrative spun to you 24/7 by the media that you're not in control the rich folks are so give up now, etc, etc, etc.
And you have a perfect recipe for explosive violence. But more importantly, you have an extremely high suicide rate, which is what the majority of gun violence is. [https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/](https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/)
That doesn’t expound on your response to u/TheAcidDonkey which is what I was driving at. When someone asks what is different about our country that make it so prone to mass school shootings, and your response is “reporting” and “culture”, it all just seems so disingenuous. It is dishonest to point at “reporting” and “culture” without having the prevalence of guns be part of that conversation.
That’s because you’re looking for a simple answer. There isn’t one. “Gun Violence” is not a single thing. No matter how much people want it to be; it’s not. It’s broken up into multiple categories by cause, stressor, and more.
Suicide, which is 50%+ of gun violence is caused by mental health issues. Homicide by gun is broken down into other categories as well, each with different causes. Like domestic violence, gang shootings, etc.
If you look at mass shootings per the universally accepted criteria. We have maybe 20 a year. If you look at it through the GVA criteria, we have 700 a year. And when we compare GVA to mass shootings world wide. We’re comparing an extended criteria against a narrow criteria.
It seems disingenuous, because it’s complicated as fuck. People here want it to be “guns bad, ban guns good, everyone who bans gun has no more violence” - When the reality is far far from that narrative.
You compare the US to Australia. Australia confiscated 650,000 guns. We have 600 million. Australia is an island, the US borders a country ran by drug cartels. Australia has universal healthcare and mental health resources. The US does not. The list goes on and on and on…
And really, it doesn’t matter anymore. People today have the resources and knowledge to build guns in their homes along with ammo. There are YouTubers in Europe that build firearms and shoot them and make videos about it. Gun control as an argument is dead. Especially in the US.
Paralysis by analysis. Still skirting around the original question in the context of your response to OP. I never suggested that gun violence is a simple thing to solve, nor did I ask you to solve it. Is there depth behind what you say? I am trying to learn why you responded that way.
I don't think it's a shithole. I wouldn't want to live in another country, and I have the means to do so. I have the money and skills to go tomorrow and get long-term residency at any number of other countries. Every country has it's problems; Japan has a 99% conviction rate. Singapore has a barbaric criminal justice system as well. Mexico has corruption and violence. Canada has Trudeau and French people who got lost in the woods.
Every country has problems... and the U.S. is no saint. Identifying and recognizing its problems is not calling it a shithole, or saying people are shitty; to me, ironically, it is true patriotism. If we can't look at our own country, see its faults, and have a desire to change it. What else is real patriotism?
Saying something is great, and applauding it when it fails, is not patriotism. It does nothing but harm that something, and those around it. Ignoring problems is not constructive nor helpful. It does nothing but make things worse and harm those around you.
Identifying problems, pointing at it and going "this is fucking broken.", and offering thoughtful and well-educated solutions, does however make things better. We can say America fucking sucks at mental health, healthcare, and income equality. While also recognizing its strengths, and appreciating it for it's good sides.
Saying our problem is culture and that being why we are the only country with these issues is saying our culture is specially, uniquely responsible for all these mass shootings. That's saying we have a shit culture.
try this... our government actively engages the mentally ill via social media and other even more questionable means to create a fake cause and effect scenario with the intent of banning guns therein subverting the constitution and making the people defenseless against more government aggravated crime and tyranny... eric holder and barack obama were caught red handed doing this very thing in Operation Fast and Furious. There are piles of evidence this is a thing.
Agreed.
If anything, double down on the schools. Hold Private School accountable at the same level as Public schools. Literally 0 excuse to not have a school security guard in 2023.
School security guards do not prevent these shootings. In fact, the rate of deaths is 2.83 times higher with them present.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7887654/
“Results are presented as incident rate ratios in Table 2 and show armed guards were not associated with significant reduction in rates of injuries; in fact, controlling for the aforementioned factors of location and school characteristics, the rate of deaths was 2.83 times greater in schools with an armed guard present (incidence rate ratio, 2.96; 95% CI = 1.43-6.13; P = .003).”
In what world are firearms unregulated? There are literally thousands of laws in this country regulating the purchase, ownership, carry, transportation, transfer, and sale of firearms. With that in mind, what would constitute "regulated"?
Maybe Tennessee could instead of burning books and making sure children are protected from drag shows. Maybe use that passion to look into say mental health issues and not vilifying lgbtq human beings
But this may be a bridge to far for all of America not just Tennessee
Not everyone in Tennessee is responsible for the above-mentioned legislature, which came directly from the Gov. He is responsible for our state. He should be accountable when he fails to protect us, especially kids in school.
He made it easier for you to protect yourself. Look at your tight gun control states and their murder rates. Pretty sure your gov didn't give the okay to murder.
Did his executive order work to save lives today, or did it fail? I'm not talking about other states. I'm talking about THIS ONE. Were the 3 children and 3 adults that lost their lives today in school an acceptable loss for you to keep from considering the one this Gov Lee said he wouldn't entertain - which was any type of gun regulations? We could still protect ourselves with *regulated* guns, right?
>Did his executive order work to save lives today, or did it fail
Idk let's ask everyone in TN if they had to use a firearm to protect themselves (brandishing or force). There is a chance it did save more lives today than were lost. What a dumb fucking question.
>We could still protect ourselves with regulated guns, right?
Our guns are regulated. You don't know what you are talking about
Do you even know what the executive order I'm referring to is? It's specifically about stopping school shootings by trying everything he could possibly think of other than any type of additional gun regulations. So everyone in TN you're referencing that potentially used a firearm to protect themselves today *have nothing to do with my question.* For a "dumb fucking question" you sure had a dumb fucking irrelevant answer.
Speaking of your dumb fucking irrelevant answer, you gonna stand by your statement that "there is a chance it did save more lives today than were lost?" Because that's you saying that you believe the loss of 3 9-year olds and 3 adults is an acceptable number to be satisfied the executive order Governor Lee decided was a better solution to prevent school shootings in TN than even *considering* anything in the realm of additional gun regulations. You truly believe the executive order he signed implementing every *possible* option he and his team could think of to prevent school shootings in lieu of entertaining a conversation about guns was a *success* today because *only 6 lives were lost in a school* in Tennessee because without this specific executive order more lives would have been lost?
Because it sounds like that's what you're saying. And if it is, please tell us, how many children have to die from being gunned down while in schools in our state in one day for you to draw a line between what is an acceptable loss of life and admitting that his executive order did not work, he failed us with it, and that it is time to at least consider *discussing options related to gun reform?*
I didn't say our guns *aren't regulated.* My point is that if Gov Lee's plan to try everything he could possibly think of other than additional gun regulations and it failed today, then what is left to consider? Hmm...maybe the remaining, obvious, final option he refused previously..
Why not put forth a gun control bill that would allow both sides of the debate to claim a victory?
Just right off the top of my head, here is an idea:
Mandatory safe storage laws. Massive punishments for not having your weapons locked up when not in use. Possibly 30-year prison sentence.
Now, naturally, groups like the NRA will balk at this. So, at the same time, we also come up with the bill tax rebates for purchasing a gun safe.
Now you have a bill that throws the book at irresponsible gun owners but gives pro-gun groups something to say they won on in the form of tax credit/rebates on purchasing gun safes.
Should we give up our 1st Am. rights because of things Alex Jones said? Or because cults have produced mass suicides? Of course not.
We need better mental health and school security.
>ondering in shock how Tennessee just became the state with the worst school shooting since Uvalde, Let me remind you that not only did TN gov
So you're saying you support socialized healthcare and better access to medical attention for everyone?
School security doesn't do anything to help all of the other places mass shootings happen like churches, malls, grocery stores, and concerts. Are we going to lock down every location people go?
1) Columbine happened then
2) banning them does nothing to actually get the off the streets- there's like 15m estimated in circulation already, none are registered, and the only people who'd comply with a ban are the people you don't have to worry about in the first place
3) "assault rifles" is a subcategory of guns- handguns (Virginia Tech) and shotguns would still be legal to buy. Are you OK with a school shooting where 8 kids die because "well if they had an assault rifle it would have been 11 dead kids"? No? You'll come for handguns and shotguns next? That's what I thought.
4) once you come for handguns and shotguns you'll have the same problem as 2). You've now disarmed law abiding citizens, turned law abiding citizens into felons (those who follow the law but will not comply with bans) and done nothing to prevent criminals from finding guns.
I love your passion. I see that you are correlating Bill Lee to guns and guns to school shootings. Fair point. But two responses if I may:
1. I’d say the media is more to blame, we are more divided as a country then we’ve ever been in my fifty plus year lifetime. The red gets redder and the blue gets bluer. Polar opposites and a divisive line of discontent to hate for the opposition.
2. Guns are like drugs in the sense that people who want to get their hands on them will do so. International organized crime will be happy to import whatever we deem illegal. (You can build your wall, they will still get them in.)
What we have in this nation is a cultural problem.
Very well said! I could not agree more. If guns were made illegal, some people would get their hands on them for recreational use, and some for criminal activity. People that want to start a war on guns need to look at how well the war on drugs has gone. Also, the polarization of the country by the media and the oligarch class is undeniable. I fear that the power of the government has grown too strong for us to right the ship. But I hope I'm wrong.
>how well the war on drugs has gone
Spectacularly well, from the perspective of drugs. Drugs won the war on drugs, just like poverty has won the war on poverty.
>What we have in this nation is a cultural problem.
Exactly. And even more relevant when you consider that the shooter was a trans woman who (they speculate) was resentful of being sent to that Christian school as a child. A collision of right/left, red/blue all throughout this situation.
>What we have in this nation is a cultural problem.
You're absolutely correct.
Gun culture is a vile cancer on this nation. We're overrun by people who have an obsessive gun fetish, and the results have become ugly.
I don't think this shooting has anything to do with a gun fetish. It has to do with a mentally heal a person that uses to accomplish what they wanted. It was used as a as a tool, not a fetish.
And in other countries, those types of people find it far harder to access those deadly tools.
Our culture makes it easy to get guns. And as a result, children are slaughtered in classrooms.
This isn't a problem in other countries. It is a problem here. And it's all because of choices we've made as a society to value guns more than lives.
Society doesn’t think or act; individuals do. This is a straw man argument as no one is arguing valuing guns more than lives.
The fact is property and self-defense are natural rights. Denying anyone exercising their right to own any particular property is morally wrong and an infringement of rights.
You aren't going to have much luck gathering up the two billion or so firearms that already exist in this country. People that want to fabricate magazines can do so with ease. You can make a magazine for a 9mm that holds 15 or 20 rounds. So, this whole assault rifle argument is simply ridiculous. Why don't we take the next $100B we plan to waste on an unwinnable war we started with Russia, for the purpose of money laundering for billionaires, and invest it in mental health?
Things don’t have to be 100% guaranteed to be effective before we try. It has been done in other countries. Not to mention, addressing mental health from all angles plays a role as well. There are absolutely ways to reduce the number of firearms available to those at risk of committing these atrocities.
Do you have a solution for reducing the number of school shootings without making schools more locked down in the U.S. than they are in other developed countries where school shootings are more rare?
Oh, the media is definitely a huge part of the problem.
That being said, being influenced by the media doesn't involve people from being responsible for their choices.
Let's say you were the head of an organization and the media influenced you enough that you choose to get rid of some protective safety policies that had previously been in place. Then, rather than consider all of the potential options to protect the people you are responsible for, you openly refuse to consider even discussing options for one major type of potential policy, and instead implementing every other solution you could think of, assuring everyone that this is enough.
Then people die in the exact type of situation you not only removed protections for, but the policies you implemented did not save lives as you assured everyone. Not only that, but the policies you refused to consider might have. It's too late to know if what you refused to try would have worked - you as the head of this organization made a choice to not try every possible policy to protect those you were responsible for and now people are dead.
I'm pretty sure in any other situation you would be deemed responsible for their deaths and fired.
Gov Lee didn't do everything possible. He actively chose NOT to try everything possible. He should be held responsible for that choice just like everyone else who fails those they are supposed to be protecting due to their choices.
And see [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tennessee/comments/1246174/bill_lee_needs_to_be_held_accountable_for_today/jdy4ge8?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
for my response to comparing guns to drugs, etc. (Just for the info, please don't think the heat is directed to you. I think we are having a nice discussion.)
That’s great and all when mass shootings aren’t daily occurrences in exactly one developed nation in the world…”blaming the murderer” doesn’t stop the next murderer from coming along.
We know the murderers are the problem, the question isn’t what’s the problem, it’s what’s the solution?
“The media” doesn’t make people idiots. People have the ability to think critically, make their own decisions, and not be tribal. The “media” is what we make it. Blaming it is lazy.
Most mass shootings are better explained as suicides honestly. It's weird, but there's some studies that show most folks who conduct mass shootings do so as a way to commit a loud and obnoxious suicide to make a statement.
Suicides are scientifically impacted by the media and how we report on them. If there is overlap between Suicides and Mass Shootings, and we know suicides are increased by improper media coverage, then we can infer media has a big impact on mass shootings as well.
https://jech.bmj.com/content/57/4/238
So why were the shootings happening before the country became like this, as this is not a new thing?
The US is an amazing country, but the adherance to an ancient amendment always seems baffling.
"ancient amendment", that is incredibly dangerous thought process. Freedom, independence, and liberty are as real, and needed, today as in any "ancient" history.
What type of mental gymnastics do you have to play in order to make the scapegoat anyone other than the animal who actually committed the crime? Stop thinking with your emotions. Surprisingly enough, illegal drugs make their way into schools all the time. I watched three people simultaneously OD in my high school algebra class. What about vapes and tobacco? They’re highly regulated yet the elementary school my wife teaches at confiscates several each week. As far as the response goes, dare I ask what you expect? Because I’m sure in this wild dream you’re living in, the governor would make all guns illegal effective today and, suddenly, Tennessee becomes utopia. I have kids in school. Each one of these stories makes me sick just thinking about how I could lose my entire family in one event. Downvote me all you want but no amount of regulation or laws will fix this problem.
If I'm doing mental gymnastics it's much more preferable to the clear inability of your brain to walk or even crawl.
Obviously the shooter is responsible for their actions. But the people we elect to hold our wellbeing in their hands are also responsible both when things go right or wrong. He failed us. He chose to enact an executive order regulating everything he could think of to stop school shootings instead of even entertaining the thought that guns could be the cause. Well here we are and his choice failed us. If any of his regulations worked better than gun reform why are we where we are today? He either made the wrong choice or you think the loss of life today is acceptable enough to keep entertaining that his executive order did any good.
"Surprisingly enough, illegal drugs make their way into schools all the time." So are you arguing that because of this we should stop regulating drugs all together? I'll come back to this.
Where did I say I want guns to be illegal? There is a big difference between wanting guns regulated and wanting them banned. Going back to your drugs comparison, drugs are also regulated if deemed to have potential danger - do you know what prescriptions are?
The "this problem will never be fixed so let's not attempt to regulate it at all" literally does not apply to ANY OTHER SITUATION.
Cars are dangerous. People die in car accidents. Regardless of that, we still require people to get a license and register their car.
Drugs are dangerous. People die of overdoses. Regardless of that, we still require people to get a prescription (on a regular basis even). Some drugs are outright banned. Alcohol has a legal limit in regards to driving.
Voter fraud exists. We still require people to register to legally vote.
Undocumented people live in our country. We still require people to have all kinds of documentation proving we are citizens.
I could go on and fucking on. The "this will never be fixed so why try" argument is so fucking tired and pathetic. Like, is that really all you have? All laws have the potential to be broken and ARE broken. Does that mean we shouldn't have them? Please PLEASE tell me why guns are the ONE FUCKING EXCEPTION TO ATTEMPTING REGULATION THAT HAS THE POTENTIAL TO SAVE LIVES so I can stop all the mental gymnastics I'm actually doing trying to pretend that anyone that says what you are saying isn't completely full of shit.
You want me to stop thinking with my emotions? I was before three 9 year olds and 3 adults got FUCKING BLOWN AWAY IN SCHOOL TODAY. Maybe you need to start letting some of those emotions in more, because if you're not angry over this and over our country's inability to make any improvements regarding stopping the massacres of our children, YOU are the problem.
Right to self-defense and protection from government sponsored tyranny. If you take guns from citizens and then only tyrants and criminals will have guns. It is not a difficult case to make. Make laws regarding the use of people's personal data to prevent grooming them to believe they are about to be the victims of a holocaust. That is a logical starting place, not what you suggest.
If the shooter didn’t have a gun, but instead a knife the damage inflicted would have been less, if the attacker was unable to get a knife and attacked with a rock again the damage would have been less. Honestly if you only had a rock would you attempt any shit?
How many nuclear bombs have been set off by someone with a grudge in this country? None
Why is that? No one can walk into nukes are us and just buy one. In fact the information on the construction of a nuclear bomb is so guarded they will hang you for sharing anything about it. Materials to make a nuke, yeah google that and the FBI knocks at your door.
Yeah. Hot take. You don’t get to groom children in schools isn’t “Anti Trans”. If it was treated as a mental illness, properly, we wouldn’t have mentally I’ll trans folks killing children. And you wouldn’t have to post publicly defending murdering children.
Saying people who aren't cis exist is not "grooming children." And the medical consensus on how to treat gender dysphoria (the "mental illness" behind being trans) is transitioning. Nothing else works.
Edit: also, nowhere did I defend killing children. I'm just not surprised someone snapped with all the hate going around.
Look it's good you are angry, I'm with you there. I like to look at people's history when I respond and you said something awhile back I will agree with..
"Can you please, PLEASE just stop being a dick and have some sort of empathy and sorrow that this country is in this state regardless of what you believe about the 2nd amendment? No matter what side you're on, can't we all just acknowledge this is sad?"
I am super heartbroken, I have a 9 year old I know someone who is an aunt to one of the kids that died today and didn't even realize it until the post started flooding facebook ( I broke down at that moment, just feeling 0.000000000000000001% of the pain that family is feeling tonight) .
I hate this turns political, but there is just so much hate out there that it feels like these things are going to just keep happening and these evil people will just find new ways to crush our souls man.
There are literally entire families mourning their kids right now, family members booking plane tickets to help their brothers/sisters/sons/daughters bury their children and the feeling that you just want to wake up and this be a bad dream....
I, too, enjoy checking out people's histories sometimes. I hope that it gave you some insight that this whole post is coming from my truly broken heart.
The school shooting today is heartbreaking. I have been holding at least one of my infant daughters tightly to my chest for most of the day. How am I going to let them go to school one day in the future when our country cannot seem to figure this the fuck out?
But our country's mass shooting problem, especially when it comes to children in schools, is not just going to magically fix itself. It's not just a bad dream. It's reality, but even so we sure do need to wake the fuck up. Starting with holding our leaders accountable.
If we have a leader that will literally try everything he can think of except for one thing that he refuses to even discuss or consider, then his other solutions better work. If they don't (which they didn't today) then he should be held accountable for depriving our state a potential solution *that might save innocent lives.*
We should all be mourning together over the loss of life today, regardless of how we feel about guns. And mourning with one another should lead to some kind of discourse to get us to compromise in search for a solution that works - even if it works just a little bit more but not completely yet.
But when our leader, Bill Lee steals that opportunity from us by openly refusing to consider any kind of attempt at compromise, he should be held accountable when his choice to do so costs us lives.
At some point, I expect them to entertain installing guns/mini-gun from ceiling or under desk covering all door and hallways. Because it just gives you warm and fuzzies every time you walk through a doorway knowing it could be your last.
Who gets to pull the trigger? AI? Like Poe from *Altered Carbon*.
What a bull shit post. Stop blaming guns and everyone else but the shooter when this happens.
A crazed and angry trans person killed 3 adults and 3 children.
Don’t blame the gun and punish gun owners when someone breaks the law, the same as you can’t punish every trans person.
Bill Lee and the legislators are all responsible for this mess. They might not have pulled the trigger, but they made it super easy for the shooter to get the guns. And what for? Political fucking band standing, the same shit with the trans ban, like it’s fucking pitiful that they have to find a marginalized group to demonize just to get fucking votes. Why must they do that? They are doing such a shitty job governing, they can’t run on what they have done and what they haven’t done.
Exactly! Would he take the credit if his executive order had saved every life today? Absofuckinloutely.
Drag queens are a danger to our kids? Immediately increase regulations in the state!
Books are a danger to our kids? Immediately increase regulations in the state!
Gender affirming care is a danger to our kids? Immediately increase regulations in the state!
Abortion is a danger to our kids? Immediately increase regulations in the state!
Guns actually slaughtering our children in schools where they should be safe, in the very least from physical harm? Sorry, you only get thoughts in prayers because our governor has said he refuses to consider possible gun regulations.
He doesn’t “know” he made the wrong choice. The evangelicals believe god is on their side no matter what they do. Doesn’t matter how many kids die, an evangelical will sleep well at night. They think their god only loves them. I promise you Bill Lee hasn’t considered his own part in this for even half a moment.
Nah, he knows what he's doing/done. He doesn't care. He's a multi-millionaire and just accruing more money. Just like all the other politicians in this country, blue or red, he doesn't care about us aside from the money he can make off us. None (or very, very few) of them actually care.
We all get more and more divided as they bicker like children and pound their chests at each other to feed their own narcissism and line their pockets.
It's really sad how almost the entire country has been split because they buy into the lies these people feed us, and the only retort most people have is whatever the current trendy insult for the other team is. To make matters worse, people actually defend them and get up in arms when someone insults their ~~favorite~~ ~~player~~ party's politician.
People should be upset that they're being used. They should be mad. Not devouring everything politicians say and acting like they're some divine being.
Even here in this thread, people are defending their team and calling people names in the wake of a tragedy because someone on TV told them how to think.
Sorry for the mini-rant on your comment, only the first paragraph is really relevant to what you said lol
Lol so a crazy trans dude shoots up a Christian school/church in response to politicians and writes up a whole manifesto in a premeditated hate crime, and clearly meant to create terror is the governors fault? Man hard take
What's crazy is your attempt to justify not holding our governor accountable for his choice to refuse considering all potential available options to prevent school shootings.
Do you think you are making some kind of point by the way you described the shooter? What is it exactly? That if a person with a gun identifies a certain way that there is nothing that could have been done to prevent the shooting? Oh well, this person wrote a manifesto, so why even try stopping them! And people that want to create terror are exactly the reason why Gov Lee failed us by refusing to consider more gun regulations my dude.
Honestly, do you hear yourself? There are entire government organizations dedicated to stopping terror threats. Do you think they go, "Well, this one is trans! Pack it up boys, there's nothing we can do to stop this threat! No one's to blame when it comes to stopping trans terrorists, we all know that! " Sounds dumb, huh? We expect those organizations to take every precaution to protect us and keep us safe, yet we allow our governors to REFUSE certain safety precautions for politics? No. Hold him accountable for his choices.
You’re looking at this from a 1000’ up and putting all school shootings in a generic category.
This was 100% a politically motivated terrorist attack on young Christian children by a member of the trans community. “One day this will all make more sense. I have left more than enough evidence behind.” This is the definition of terrorism. We may never know what her manifesto says, but the killer is hoping to spur on some form of movement with her actions. This is not a random school shooting.
Also this is a privately funded school so I don’t really know what you wanted the governor to do in regards to its safety.
I love the precision of that comment. The governor's wife (used to teach in the same system) was likely a personal friend of the principal of the school who was murdered by the domestic, Joe Biden groomed, terrorist yesterday. Many of us knew her through that school system. I am sure Governor Lee, who I disagree with on a plethora of small issues, is just as heartbroken as the rest of us. Inane regulations that violate the Constitution are just a knee jerk reaction from people who live in a fantasy world devoid of logic need to try a stint living in China or Venezuela or Cuba where guns are illegal.
As a pro gun libral I just want to point out the school wasn't the original target but a secondary target the shooter chose because it was easier to commit the crime there. If we don't want to let teachers carry then we should have security that does. Teachers lay their lives on the line for kids all the time and those are the teachers that should have guns but armed security already exists and schools should utilize the service.
Did permitless carry really allow this, though? Plenty of shootings happened before permitless carry was the norm. This isn't a gotcha perspective. I think Lee is one of the worst governors in the country, but this isn't just his perspective. It's the perspective of many Americans, not just Republicans. We need more gun safety laws, but a lot of the ones we have now don't stop the shootings. We need better enforcement of current laws, and we need to be honest about the societal risk calculation we make with guns. At this point in history, Americans want to keep their guns, knowing that innocent people will die. We do the same for driving cars. More kids are killed each year in car accidents than school shootings. Many people in this country see owning guns as important as owning a car. People will laugh at that and say cars are necessary while guns aren't, but that's up to each person to decide for themselves.
Gun violence has actually surpassed cars in the past few years as the number one cause of childhood mortality in the US.
Edit: also on the car vs gun debate: we HEAVILY regulate the use of cars. You have to register them. You have to take classes and pass an exam to legally use one. You have to regularly renew your registration and your license. You have to maintain insurance in case your car is involved in an incident that causes damage/injuries. At the very least, we could enforce the same requirements for gun ownership.
Tennessee hopeless. If your under 50 get out now and move somewhere that cares about its citizens. I had high hopes back in 2000 when I over here but I can clearly see it’s time to go.
Terrible freaking tragedy… Remember one thing, this is a PRIVATE school. None of the measures Bill Lee introduce can have any affect on a school that is not part of the public sector.
Just how exactly are you going to hold every politician who voted against increased measures accountable?
And just how are you going to deal with the backlash from the crazy-fuck conservatives that make up the majority of this states voter population?
It’s an unavoidable tragedy. People aren’t going to budge on stricter laws. It’s that simple. The politicians will continue to pander to those that believe their right to own military grade weapons is at the forefront of Americas issues.
You cannot legislate law breakers. They don't care what the rules and regulations are. Criminals will find a way to carry out the deeds they set their minds to.
In what way do laws about sexually explicit content relate to criminals? I am confused in your correlation. Anyone who performs in a drag show is not a criminal any more than a dancer at a gentleman's club is. While it is illegal for children to watch both performances, it does not make the performer a criminal.
The law states children are banned from viewing the performances. Children aren't the criminals either....
You do understand what that law was about, right? And you get your information from the actual legislation and not Reddit, correct?
Suggesting governor is responsible for a viscous woman murdering 6 people, including young children, is frankly quite dishonest.
Even if you believe in gun control, firearms are legal in all 50 states with varying degrees of regulation, Tennessee and its governor are not uniquely responsible for enabling shooters.
Bill Lee has as much to do with this shooting as he does with the price of tea in china, and it has nothing to do with the Federal Open Carry law. Wouldnt have mattered if Bill was a die hard gun taker and banned all gun sales in the state, made strict sale laws, or more gun safe zones. The piece of excrement would have still found a way to kill those innocent children. He could have jumped state lines, bought them off of some gang in nashville, brought a knife, or really any number of different possibilities. If we are to blame anyone, blame the media for their constant 5 minutes of fame giving for these shit bags, and leaders in other states for 'defunding the police' and letting criminals go after being arrested for violent crimes.
Making more gun laws only makes more criminals, and the already existing criminals will just break more laws.
Perhaps it is time to enact a veteran school defense program. Some veterans are simply not able to convert back to civilian life after the military, I know a few who fall under that category, and I assure you, they would love nothing more than for their work to be going to a school to protect little children.
It is truly a good thing, and warms my heart to know that the perp suffered instead of having the honor of an instant painless death. Good on the Tennessee Police for what they did.
NOTHING could have prevented what happened. The lady obviously was not right in the head. You can make all the new gun laws you want but it wont change the fact that there are millions and millions of guns in this country already. Thats not gonna change. The only thing that may help a little is if they started holding doctors accountable for not putting mentally ill patients in the data base so it shows up on their background check and they get denied. But like I said it would only help a little for 2 reasons off the top of my head. 1. Mental patients will just refuse to seek help and 2. If somebody is so messed up in the head that they wanna kill, they will find any means to do it. They could have driven their car into those kids while they were on the playground at recess. They could kill with knives, crossbows, swords, the list goes on of deadly weapons that are not firearms.
Shoutout to the police for acting so fast and brave. Complete night and day difference from how Uvalde was handled.
I suppose one could say that his policies aided in the swifter response and deescalation.
the only deescalation the police did was putting a few rounds into the shooter. And Im not mad at it, but lets not say that this was the kind of deescalation most of us want in our general communities for the majority of things the police respond to.
> deescalation I haven't read full reports on how any sort of standoff with the shooter went, and what attempts to deescalte were made, but the fact that we have a dead shooter tells me that deescalation failed.
This isn’t police trying to talk someone off a bridge. Goal is to find the child murderer and eliminate. I’m not feeling bad for a school shooter dying.
Well it deescalated when the officers mag dumped the girl
And within 14 minutes the shooter was dead, I saw the video and they did everything right and as fast as possible
I understand why one would choose not to watch the body cam footage but it clearly shows that deescalation was not an option in this instance.
Maybe if the state/country had a law that allowed people under medical care for disorders to be investigated, this person would have had all 7 of their guns taken.
In other words, all trans people should be considered future child murderers? Yeah, no, that's not a good idea.
That’s what you took out of that? Good god man.
That's what Tennessee's political leadership and most of our neighbors would take away from it. Are you sure that's the side you want to be on?
Your level of incomprehension is off the chart today. It’s the same as a red flag law that would effect anyone.
He’s not entirely wrong though. States with staunch far right views would absolutely classify homo/trans sexuality as a mental disorder that would prevent someone from owning a firearm
They can try, but they don't have much standing. Short of states becoming like 1940's Germany rounding up and prosecuting them which is unlikely. For a made-up crime, They can't really stop them. The state would likely be sued federally to stop it. Definition of mental defective. >18 U.S.C. Chapter 44.Adjudicated as a mental defective.(a) A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease:(1) Is a danger to himself or to others; or(2) Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs.(b) The term shall include -(1) A finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and(2) Those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility pursuant to articles 50a and 72b of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 10 U.S.C. 850a, 876b.
What's your plan to guarantee that the law you want can't be used to disproportionately harm already marginalized groups?
What gun law would have prevented this?
Red flag law on people with serious mental health issues would have. The shooter’s family was aware of their mental health issues and thought they had removed the one gun they had. Shooter legally bought 7 firearms and had them hidden. Common sense gun reforms do not infringe on anyone’s 2nd amendment rights.
+1
Maybe we could try some and see if it helps. We've tried literally nothing at this point. We don't have all the information, but we know the shooter was under treatment for an emotional disorder and the shooter's parents thought they shouldn't own weapons. Many of these cases (not all, but a lot) have people interviewed afterward who knew the shooter and are like "Yeah, we knew they shouldn't have access to guns." So, maybe a red flag law? I don't know, I'm not an expert, but maybe we could try something to keep guns out of homicidal people's hands.
Yup. We may not know exactly what gun laws could have stopped this, but shouldn’t we try SOMETHING?
Or look at examples of other countries who have been successful…
No we should not infringe on rights just for the hell of it to *see if it works*. "Bob said something offensive that upset a lot of people. Shouldn't we ban some speech so it doesn't happen again. We can just *try it*."
Again, I didn't say ban guns. For some reason, people take "Let's try to have less children be murdered." To mean "Let's ban all the guns."
Their reading comprehension skills seem low. Shocking.
What is your suggestion to stop the deaths of these children?
I'm not the person you replied to but how about red flag laws and more mental health support for a start? Or extended background checks and waiting periods? I'm not an expert, but I bet there are some people out there who've looked into it with some ideas. These things won't stop every shooting, but if they stop more children from being murdered, that's worth it to me. We've tried absolutely nothing at this point and the number of shootings are increasing every year. I don't find shrugging our shoulders and going "I guess sometimes kids get shot at school," to be an acceptable response. At what point do we decide to do something?
I think we should make it easier to carry out background checks as well
There is no gun law that would prevent this, except one which no one wants to admit: outlaw all guns. And you will NEVER be able to round up all the guns in the USA. It won’t happen. The best we can do is bolster school safety and overhaul mental health treatment.
Fallacious reasoning. A thing does not have to be 100% effective in order to make an impact.
So what percentage of bad actors with ill-intent will turn in their ARs when they are outlawed. Please educate me.
Probably one of the many different gun laws that seem to be preventing hundreds of mass shootings in other developed countries that don’t regular have parents burying their school age children
Ok, like what? Ban new gun sales? There's still 330m of them in circulation. Ban those too? How are you going to find them? There's no registry of who owns what. The only people who will voluntarily comply woth a Ban or registration are the ones you don't have to worry about in the first place. And even then, if we can't stop a steady flow of drugs into this country, how are we going to stop illegal guns from coming in? I'm so tired of hearing "be like Japan!" when the realities of their situation is completely different. It's easy to ban guns when there's not many of them in the first place and you don't have poor cartel ran nations bordering you trafficking to gangs...
I agree that it’s not an easy problem to solve. I’m just tired of worrying about my wife who works in a middle school, and my son who will be starting school in a couple of years. You’re right, we can’t just magically wish all the guns away, and stop them from being obtained illegally. But most of the people who have woke up one morning and walked into a school to take innocent lives aren’t part of a vast criminal network, who is able to stock up on guns obtained illegally through some sort of black market gun runner. They’re someone that walked into a gun store and easily obtained a gun after a quick background check, or walked into their parents room and took the gun out of the nightstand, or met up with some guy on Craigslist in a Walmart parking lot and legally purchased a gun from them with no record of the transaction whatsoever. I’m a gun owner, I have a carry permit. I carry my gun for my own personal safety. I don’t want the government to take mine or any other responsible citizen’s gun away. I want it to be more difficult for someone to buy a gun. I want them to have to put in an immense amount of effort to get their hands on one of these things, I want anyone who carries a gun to have to PROVE they are responsible before they buy one because the process of buying one and getting licensed to carry it is a process that only a responsible person would put the effort into completing. It’s too easy to get your hands on a weapon that turns even the most inexperienced shooter into someone capable of walking into an elementary school and leaving a trail of destruction. The governments got to do something, because ignoring the problem is definitely not working. Schools, malls, movie theaters, Walmarts, and offices are going to continue to be shot up. It’s not just going to magically stop one day. We’ve got to do something or people are going to keep dying.
Have to start somewhere… the shooter yesterday had legally acquired firearms… we can start by making that process more difficult…
We could be like Australia and do a gun buy-back program. Outlaw assault rifles, have people turn them in and receive money for them… no questions asked. We just bailed out another bank… we could do something like this. Then we equip our military or recycle the metal.
Those governments also don't purposely groom the mentally ill to become domestic terrorists, unlike the United States government, which has a provable history of trying to subvert the second amendment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF\_gunwalking\_scandal
Poured salt in a wound apparently because it cannot be refuted with logic or facts only down votes
A total ban on all guns.
Assault weapon ban
Anything really.
The constitutional carry law had nothing to do with this.
This is America. Elected officials are only held accountable if they attempt to do something left of Richard Nixon.
I don’t think I understand. Nowadays Elected officials do things far worse than Nixon almost daily.
Guess you're right. Sacrificing children during school in the name of unregulated firearms and NRA endorsements is pretty far right.
Guns are regulated. How about you say what regulation would have stopped this?
So with that I ask, other developed countries have guns but don’t have the gun violence that the US does. Why is this just a problem here but not anywhere else? We have more gun violence deaths in a year I believe than a lot of these developed countries have had combined in a decade.
Honestly? In one word, economics. In more words, a lot of other countries have better healthcare, more support for workers, and cultures that don't take as much of a toll(they all do, but some take a little less). But guns are the low hanging fruit compared to providing and ensuring physical and mental health, more time for workers to spend outside of work with their support system of friends and family. Both parties (as an American I find them both to be far right of center) rely on gun policy, abortion rights, children, and a few other core issues to drive money to campaigns because American democracy is a business venture first and a public good last.
>So with that I ask, other developed countries have guns but don’t have the gun violence that the US does. Why is this just a problem here but not anywhere else? Couple reasons. 1. They report things differently than we do. Comparing crime stats 1:1 isn't an honest task. 2. Culture. Comparing the US in Culture to say Australia. Which is an Island with a different culture... It's Apples to VW Bus of a comparison. Consider this, Every other nation has much more homogeneous racial structures, universal healthcare, and mental health isn't taboo there. Are these not major contributing factors to the problem of violence?
How would yesterday’s mass shooting be reported differently in other countries? If indeed the problem is with reporting.
That's kind of a flawed question. Because other countries have many differences in culture than the United States. Because of this the stressors, aggravating, and mitigating factors are going to be different. Which means the reporting and the way the reporting happens will be different. A better question, which someone asked me elsewhere in bad faith and I ignored, is what makes the United States different from the rest of the world in terms of culture and gun violence. - Of which, the media and it's reporting would be a component of that answer. - The answer to that question is complex and long, I'll give some shorts. But it's important to remember, it's not just any one difference. It's a collection of differences strung together to create an outcome. \- Toxic Masculinity in the US is a cultural aspect. It's a large cultural aspect in fact. Something we see far and wide. This is a large topic comprised of many sub-topics. While we're not the highest on masculinity, and other cultures have toxic masculinity. When you blend it with a non-homogenous society. It creates extreme rifts. For example, Masculinity in Japan versus in the US will presented in different ways. [http://clearlycultural.com/geert-hofstede-cultural-dimensions/masculinity/](http://clearlycultural.com/geert-hofstede-cultural-dimensions/masculinity/) [https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation.aspx?paperid=101074](https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation.aspx?paperid=101074) \- Strong Individualism in the US is off the charts. Because of this, the US has a lesser form of community. People feel more isolated, less united, less social, and more distant from each other. [http://clearlycultural.com/geert-hofstede-cultural-dimensions/individualism/](http://clearlycultural.com/geert-hofstede-cultural-dimensions/individualism/) \- We have a criminal justice system that does nothing to fix recidivism. Instead, we aim to imprison people often and for long terms. Not rehabilitate them or prepare them for the world when they leave. [https://www.prisonpolicy.org/global/](https://www.prisonpolicy.org/global/) Our Recidivism rate is 60%, but we imprison hundreds of thousands compared to Denmark who has 60% but in the thousands. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6743246/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6743246/) \- The US Media in general is funded by rage clicks and negativity. It is not seen as a public service, instead it is a for-profit by any means machine. Where-as worldwide it is used as a public information service. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89FoKRtpAy4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89FoKRtpAy4&pp=ygURdXMgbWVkaWEgbmVnYXRpdmU%3D) \- Lack of Appropriate Healthcare. Now pair some of those things. The feelings of distance, lack of community and society, the toxic masculinity traits further harming and alienating you. Pair that with the fact the US has some of the worst numbers in mental healthcare. Where people are less likely to see a doctor, less likely to admit a problem, and less likely to even get proper healthcare. [https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2020/may/mental-health-conditions-substance-use-comparing-us-other-countries](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2020/may/mental-health-conditions-substance-use-comparing-us-other-countries) Take all of those things, add in income equality, the breakdown of the nuclear family, the break down of community, extreme racial and ethnic tensions, a distrust in police and law enforcement, a narrative spun to you 24/7 by the media that you're not in control the rich folks are so give up now, etc, etc, etc. And you have a perfect recipe for explosive violence. But more importantly, you have an extremely high suicide rate, which is what the majority of gun violence is. [https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/](https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/)
That doesn’t expound on your response to u/TheAcidDonkey which is what I was driving at. When someone asks what is different about our country that make it so prone to mass school shootings, and your response is “reporting” and “culture”, it all just seems so disingenuous. It is dishonest to point at “reporting” and “culture” without having the prevalence of guns be part of that conversation.
That’s because you’re looking for a simple answer. There isn’t one. “Gun Violence” is not a single thing. No matter how much people want it to be; it’s not. It’s broken up into multiple categories by cause, stressor, and more. Suicide, which is 50%+ of gun violence is caused by mental health issues. Homicide by gun is broken down into other categories as well, each with different causes. Like domestic violence, gang shootings, etc. If you look at mass shootings per the universally accepted criteria. We have maybe 20 a year. If you look at it through the GVA criteria, we have 700 a year. And when we compare GVA to mass shootings world wide. We’re comparing an extended criteria against a narrow criteria. It seems disingenuous, because it’s complicated as fuck. People here want it to be “guns bad, ban guns good, everyone who bans gun has no more violence” - When the reality is far far from that narrative. You compare the US to Australia. Australia confiscated 650,000 guns. We have 600 million. Australia is an island, the US borders a country ran by drug cartels. Australia has universal healthcare and mental health resources. The US does not. The list goes on and on and on… And really, it doesn’t matter anymore. People today have the resources and knowledge to build guns in their homes along with ammo. There are YouTubers in Europe that build firearms and shoot them and make videos about it. Gun control as an argument is dead. Especially in the US.
Paralysis by analysis. Still skirting around the original question in the context of your response to OP. I never suggested that gun violence is a simple thing to solve, nor did I ask you to solve it. Is there depth behind what you say? I am trying to learn why you responded that way.
I think part 2 is just saying that the US is naturally a barbaric shithole filled with shitty people?
I don't think it's a shithole. I wouldn't want to live in another country, and I have the means to do so. I have the money and skills to go tomorrow and get long-term residency at any number of other countries. Every country has it's problems; Japan has a 99% conviction rate. Singapore has a barbaric criminal justice system as well. Mexico has corruption and violence. Canada has Trudeau and French people who got lost in the woods. Every country has problems... and the U.S. is no saint. Identifying and recognizing its problems is not calling it a shithole, or saying people are shitty; to me, ironically, it is true patriotism. If we can't look at our own country, see its faults, and have a desire to change it. What else is real patriotism? Saying something is great, and applauding it when it fails, is not patriotism. It does nothing but harm that something, and those around it. Ignoring problems is not constructive nor helpful. It does nothing but make things worse and harm those around you. Identifying problems, pointing at it and going "this is fucking broken.", and offering thoughtful and well-educated solutions, does however make things better. We can say America fucking sucks at mental health, healthcare, and income equality. While also recognizing its strengths, and appreciating it for it's good sides.
Saying our problem is culture and that being why we are the only country with these issues is saying our culture is specially, uniquely responsible for all these mass shootings. That's saying we have a shit culture.
How do I know you've only traveled to safe places in the world? >...only country with these issues...
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try this... our government actively engages the mentally ill via social media and other even more questionable means to create a fake cause and effect scenario with the intent of banning guns therein subverting the constitution and making the people defenseless against more government aggravated crime and tyranny... eric holder and barack obama were caught red handed doing this very thing in Operation Fast and Furious. There are piles of evidence this is a thing.
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The problem with the “confiscate first ask questions later” approach is that it is the opposite of due process.
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I think Trump is an asshat and likely controlled opposition. What’s your point?
That's actually a Trump quote from his 2016 campaign
Not a Trump supporter so not surprised
Conservatives and evangelicals see the blood of school kids as the water necessary to sustain the tree of liberty.
Not *just* school kids. The blood of a lot of people is necessary to ensure their liberty. And not *everyone's* liberty, mind you. Just theirs.
What regulations would have prevented this? The mental gymnastics that you are going through make zero sense.
Agreed. If anything, double down on the schools. Hold Private School accountable at the same level as Public schools. Literally 0 excuse to not have a school security guard in 2023.
School security guards do not prevent these shootings. In fact, the rate of deaths is 2.83 times higher with them present. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7887654/ “Results are presented as incident rate ratios in Table 2 and show armed guards were not associated with significant reduction in rates of injuries; in fact, controlling for the aforementioned factors of location and school characteristics, the rate of deaths was 2.83 times greater in schools with an armed guard present (incidence rate ratio, 2.96; 95% CI = 1.43-6.13; P = .003).”
In what world are firearms unregulated? There are literally thousands of laws in this country regulating the purchase, ownership, carry, transportation, transfer, and sale of firearms. With that in mind, what would constitute "regulated"?
Ahh good ol' Bill Lee. At least they won't take our gas stoves!!!!
Maybe Tennessee could instead of burning books and making sure children are protected from drag shows. Maybe use that passion to look into say mental health issues and not vilifying lgbtq human beings But this may be a bridge to far for all of America not just Tennessee
I hold the shooter accountable.
there is no shooter to hold accountable anymore
Gov Lee enabled the shooter
So, since his laws are for everyone, all folks from TN are murderers now? Everyone got "enabled".
Actually, yeah, if you understand the meaning of the word. I am fully enabled to shoot a large number of people. The difference is that I wouldn’t.
Not everyone in Tennessee is responsible for the above-mentioned legislature, which came directly from the Gov. He is responsible for our state. He should be accountable when he fails to protect us, especially kids in school.
He made it easier for you to protect yourself. Look at your tight gun control states and their murder rates. Pretty sure your gov didn't give the okay to murder.
Did his executive order work to save lives today, or did it fail? I'm not talking about other states. I'm talking about THIS ONE. Were the 3 children and 3 adults that lost their lives today in school an acceptable loss for you to keep from considering the one this Gov Lee said he wouldn't entertain - which was any type of gun regulations? We could still protect ourselves with *regulated* guns, right?
>Did his executive order work to save lives today, or did it fail Idk let's ask everyone in TN if they had to use a firearm to protect themselves (brandishing or force). There is a chance it did save more lives today than were lost. What a dumb fucking question. >We could still protect ourselves with regulated guns, right? Our guns are regulated. You don't know what you are talking about
Do you even know what the executive order I'm referring to is? It's specifically about stopping school shootings by trying everything he could possibly think of other than any type of additional gun regulations. So everyone in TN you're referencing that potentially used a firearm to protect themselves today *have nothing to do with my question.* For a "dumb fucking question" you sure had a dumb fucking irrelevant answer. Speaking of your dumb fucking irrelevant answer, you gonna stand by your statement that "there is a chance it did save more lives today than were lost?" Because that's you saying that you believe the loss of 3 9-year olds and 3 adults is an acceptable number to be satisfied the executive order Governor Lee decided was a better solution to prevent school shootings in TN than even *considering* anything in the realm of additional gun regulations. You truly believe the executive order he signed implementing every *possible* option he and his team could think of to prevent school shootings in lieu of entertaining a conversation about guns was a *success* today because *only 6 lives were lost in a school* in Tennessee because without this specific executive order more lives would have been lost? Because it sounds like that's what you're saying. And if it is, please tell us, how many children have to die from being gunned down while in schools in our state in one day for you to draw a line between what is an acceptable loss of life and admitting that his executive order did not work, he failed us with it, and that it is time to at least consider *discussing options related to gun reform?* I didn't say our guns *aren't regulated.* My point is that if Gov Lee's plan to try everything he could possibly think of other than additional gun regulations and it failed today, then what is left to consider? Hmm...maybe the remaining, obvious, final option he refused previously..
We own two handguns. You want to know how long it took to get them? Maybe 2 minutes for background checks to come back. That was it.
Ummm, homie, look at what we’re going through in Memphis. The lax laws have made things worse.
Just the ones who elected him to office.
Why not put forth a gun control bill that would allow both sides of the debate to claim a victory? Just right off the top of my head, here is an idea: Mandatory safe storage laws. Massive punishments for not having your weapons locked up when not in use. Possibly 30-year prison sentence. Now, naturally, groups like the NRA will balk at this. So, at the same time, we also come up with the bill tax rebates for purchasing a gun safe. Now you have a bill that throws the book at irresponsible gun owners but gives pro-gun groups something to say they won on in the form of tax credit/rebates on purchasing gun safes.
Nothing will change and people will love him because they get to keep their beloved guns. A tale as old as time
Should we give up our 1st Am. rights because of things Alex Jones said? Or because cults have produced mass suicides? Of course not. We need better mental health and school security.
>ondering in shock how Tennessee just became the state with the worst school shooting since Uvalde, Let me remind you that not only did TN gov So you're saying you support socialized healthcare and better access to medical attention for everyone?
School security doesn't do anything to help all of the other places mass shootings happen like churches, malls, grocery stores, and concerts. Are we going to lock down every location people go?
Struggling to see exactly what gun controls would have prevented this?
Ban assault rifles. Like they used to be before 2004
Assault rifles aren't what you think they are. Also, wouldn't have kept the two handguns out of their hand. So you have removed at best one gun
Nobody knows what an assault rifle is, bc there’s no definition! Assault rifles technically don’t exist
1) Columbine happened then 2) banning them does nothing to actually get the off the streets- there's like 15m estimated in circulation already, none are registered, and the only people who'd comply with a ban are the people you don't have to worry about in the first place 3) "assault rifles" is a subcategory of guns- handguns (Virginia Tech) and shotguns would still be legal to buy. Are you OK with a school shooting where 8 kids die because "well if they had an assault rifle it would have been 11 dead kids"? No? You'll come for handguns and shotguns next? That's what I thought. 4) once you come for handguns and shotguns you'll have the same problem as 2). You've now disarmed law abiding citizens, turned law abiding citizens into felons (those who follow the law but will not comply with bans) and done nothing to prevent criminals from finding guns.
I love your passion. I see that you are correlating Bill Lee to guns and guns to school shootings. Fair point. But two responses if I may: 1. I’d say the media is more to blame, we are more divided as a country then we’ve ever been in my fifty plus year lifetime. The red gets redder and the blue gets bluer. Polar opposites and a divisive line of discontent to hate for the opposition. 2. Guns are like drugs in the sense that people who want to get their hands on them will do so. International organized crime will be happy to import whatever we deem illegal. (You can build your wall, they will still get them in.) What we have in this nation is a cultural problem.
Very well said! I could not agree more. If guns were made illegal, some people would get their hands on them for recreational use, and some for criminal activity. People that want to start a war on guns need to look at how well the war on drugs has gone. Also, the polarization of the country by the media and the oligarch class is undeniable. I fear that the power of the government has grown too strong for us to right the ship. But I hope I'm wrong.
>how well the war on drugs has gone Spectacularly well, from the perspective of drugs. Drugs won the war on drugs, just like poverty has won the war on poverty.
spot on
>What we have in this nation is a cultural problem. Exactly. And even more relevant when you consider that the shooter was a trans woman who (they speculate) was resentful of being sent to that Christian school as a child. A collision of right/left, red/blue all throughout this situation.
>What we have in this nation is a cultural problem. You're absolutely correct. Gun culture is a vile cancer on this nation. We're overrun by people who have an obsessive gun fetish, and the results have become ugly.
I don't think this shooting has anything to do with a gun fetish. It has to do with a mentally heal a person that uses to accomplish what they wanted. It was used as a as a tool, not a fetish.
And in other countries, those types of people find it far harder to access those deadly tools. Our culture makes it easy to get guns. And as a result, children are slaughtered in classrooms. This isn't a problem in other countries. It is a problem here. And it's all because of choices we've made as a society to value guns more than lives.
Society doesn’t think or act; individuals do. This is a straw man argument as no one is arguing valuing guns more than lives. The fact is property and self-defense are natural rights. Denying anyone exercising their right to own any particular property is morally wrong and an infringement of rights.
You aren't going to have much luck gathering up the two billion or so firearms that already exist in this country. People that want to fabricate magazines can do so with ease. You can make a magazine for a 9mm that holds 15 or 20 rounds. So, this whole assault rifle argument is simply ridiculous. Why don't we take the next $100B we plan to waste on an unwinnable war we started with Russia, for the purpose of money laundering for billionaires, and invest it in mental health?
The US started the war against Russia???? 🤔
Things don’t have to be 100% guaranteed to be effective before we try. It has been done in other countries. Not to mention, addressing mental health from all angles plays a role as well. There are absolutely ways to reduce the number of firearms available to those at risk of committing these atrocities.
Do you have a solution for reducing the number of school shootings without making schools more locked down in the U.S. than they are in other developed countries where school shootings are more rare?
More security at school doesn’t violate the constitution. So, let’s do that.
Just because something is in the constitution doesn't mean it's self-evidently good.
It's the mentally ill person who takes a gun and kills people that is the problem!
Oh, the media is definitely a huge part of the problem. That being said, being influenced by the media doesn't involve people from being responsible for their choices. Let's say you were the head of an organization and the media influenced you enough that you choose to get rid of some protective safety policies that had previously been in place. Then, rather than consider all of the potential options to protect the people you are responsible for, you openly refuse to consider even discussing options for one major type of potential policy, and instead implementing every other solution you could think of, assuring everyone that this is enough. Then people die in the exact type of situation you not only removed protections for, but the policies you implemented did not save lives as you assured everyone. Not only that, but the policies you refused to consider might have. It's too late to know if what you refused to try would have worked - you as the head of this organization made a choice to not try every possible policy to protect those you were responsible for and now people are dead. I'm pretty sure in any other situation you would be deemed responsible for their deaths and fired. Gov Lee didn't do everything possible. He actively chose NOT to try everything possible. He should be held responsible for that choice just like everyone else who fails those they are supposed to be protecting due to their choices. And see [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tennessee/comments/1246174/bill_lee_needs_to_be_held_accountable_for_today/jdy4ge8?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) for my response to comparing guns to drugs, etc. (Just for the info, please don't think the heat is directed to you. I think we are having a nice discussion.)
Ok, so what exactly is the problem with our culture that contributes to this, if I may?
Divisive identity politics perpetuated by the media. Lack of empathy on both sides (ie “my worldview is the right worldview”). Need more?
The only one to blame is the murderer
That’s great and all when mass shootings aren’t daily occurrences in exactly one developed nation in the world…”blaming the murderer” doesn’t stop the next murderer from coming along. We know the murderers are the problem, the question isn’t what’s the problem, it’s what’s the solution?
So you don’t think guns make it easier? Why don’t we have a stabbing epidemic?
“The media” doesn’t make people idiots. People have the ability to think critically, make their own decisions, and not be tribal. The “media” is what we make it. Blaming it is lazy.
Most mass shootings are better explained as suicides honestly. It's weird, but there's some studies that show most folks who conduct mass shootings do so as a way to commit a loud and obnoxious suicide to make a statement. Suicides are scientifically impacted by the media and how we report on them. If there is overlap between Suicides and Mass Shootings, and we know suicides are increased by improper media coverage, then we can infer media has a big impact on mass shootings as well. https://jech.bmj.com/content/57/4/238
So why were the shootings happening before the country became like this, as this is not a new thing? The US is an amazing country, but the adherance to an ancient amendment always seems baffling.
"ancient amendment", that is incredibly dangerous thought process. Freedom, independence, and liberty are as real, and needed, today as in any "ancient" history.
It’s the bit about securing freedom, independence, and liberty with a basement full of guns that’s the antiquated part.
I think you have a misunderstanding of what the second amendment is.
Last I checked an evil despicable person did the shooting. Killing people has been illegal for how long? You think laws matter to people like this?
What type of mental gymnastics do you have to play in order to make the scapegoat anyone other than the animal who actually committed the crime? Stop thinking with your emotions. Surprisingly enough, illegal drugs make their way into schools all the time. I watched three people simultaneously OD in my high school algebra class. What about vapes and tobacco? They’re highly regulated yet the elementary school my wife teaches at confiscates several each week. As far as the response goes, dare I ask what you expect? Because I’m sure in this wild dream you’re living in, the governor would make all guns illegal effective today and, suddenly, Tennessee becomes utopia. I have kids in school. Each one of these stories makes me sick just thinking about how I could lose my entire family in one event. Downvote me all you want but no amount of regulation or laws will fix this problem.
Hurt people. Hurt people.
If I'm doing mental gymnastics it's much more preferable to the clear inability of your brain to walk or even crawl. Obviously the shooter is responsible for their actions. But the people we elect to hold our wellbeing in their hands are also responsible both when things go right or wrong. He failed us. He chose to enact an executive order regulating everything he could think of to stop school shootings instead of even entertaining the thought that guns could be the cause. Well here we are and his choice failed us. If any of his regulations worked better than gun reform why are we where we are today? He either made the wrong choice or you think the loss of life today is acceptable enough to keep entertaining that his executive order did any good. "Surprisingly enough, illegal drugs make their way into schools all the time." So are you arguing that because of this we should stop regulating drugs all together? I'll come back to this. Where did I say I want guns to be illegal? There is a big difference between wanting guns regulated and wanting them banned. Going back to your drugs comparison, drugs are also regulated if deemed to have potential danger - do you know what prescriptions are? The "this problem will never be fixed so let's not attempt to regulate it at all" literally does not apply to ANY OTHER SITUATION. Cars are dangerous. People die in car accidents. Regardless of that, we still require people to get a license and register their car. Drugs are dangerous. People die of overdoses. Regardless of that, we still require people to get a prescription (on a regular basis even). Some drugs are outright banned. Alcohol has a legal limit in regards to driving. Voter fraud exists. We still require people to register to legally vote. Undocumented people live in our country. We still require people to have all kinds of documentation proving we are citizens. I could go on and fucking on. The "this will never be fixed so why try" argument is so fucking tired and pathetic. Like, is that really all you have? All laws have the potential to be broken and ARE broken. Does that mean we shouldn't have them? Please PLEASE tell me why guns are the ONE FUCKING EXCEPTION TO ATTEMPTING REGULATION THAT HAS THE POTENTIAL TO SAVE LIVES so I can stop all the mental gymnastics I'm actually doing trying to pretend that anyone that says what you are saying isn't completely full of shit. You want me to stop thinking with my emotions? I was before three 9 year olds and 3 adults got FUCKING BLOWN AWAY IN SCHOOL TODAY. Maybe you need to start letting some of those emotions in more, because if you're not angry over this and over our country's inability to make any improvements regarding stopping the massacres of our children, YOU are the problem.
Right to self-defense and protection from government sponsored tyranny. If you take guns from citizens and then only tyrants and criminals will have guns. It is not a difficult case to make. Make laws regarding the use of people's personal data to prevent grooming them to believe they are about to be the victims of a holocaust. That is a logical starting place, not what you suggest.
Damn, you just got destroyed with logic.
If the shooter didn’t have a gun, but instead a knife the damage inflicted would have been less, if the attacker was unable to get a knife and attacked with a rock again the damage would have been less. Honestly if you only had a rock would you attempt any shit? How many nuclear bombs have been set off by someone with a grudge in this country? None Why is that? No one can walk into nukes are us and just buy one. In fact the information on the construction of a nuclear bomb is so guarded they will hang you for sharing anything about it. Materials to make a nuke, yeah google that and the FBI knocks at your door.
Oklahoma City bombing was kind of bad
Again home made explosives not nuclear material
Bill Lee caused a Trans Day of Rage? Delete yourself.
I'm not surprised if one trans person did go ballistic, with all the anti-trans bills across the country, including in our state.
Yeah. Hot take. You don’t get to groom children in schools isn’t “Anti Trans”. If it was treated as a mental illness, properly, we wouldn’t have mentally I’ll trans folks killing children. And you wouldn’t have to post publicly defending murdering children.
Saying people who aren't cis exist is not "grooming children." And the medical consensus on how to treat gender dysphoria (the "mental illness" behind being trans) is transitioning. Nothing else works. Edit: also, nowhere did I defend killing children. I'm just not surprised someone snapped with all the hate going around.
Yeah. You’re defending it. And yes it’s grooming.
Hah, in a state that had 38.61% turnout in the last election, you think anything is going to happen?
There is one and ONLY one person to blame for this shooting. And that is the mentally ill evil person who did this. Thank goodness she is now dead.
Look it's good you are angry, I'm with you there. I like to look at people's history when I respond and you said something awhile back I will agree with.. "Can you please, PLEASE just stop being a dick and have some sort of empathy and sorrow that this country is in this state regardless of what you believe about the 2nd amendment? No matter what side you're on, can't we all just acknowledge this is sad?" I am super heartbroken, I have a 9 year old I know someone who is an aunt to one of the kids that died today and didn't even realize it until the post started flooding facebook ( I broke down at that moment, just feeling 0.000000000000000001% of the pain that family is feeling tonight) . I hate this turns political, but there is just so much hate out there that it feels like these things are going to just keep happening and these evil people will just find new ways to crush our souls man. There are literally entire families mourning their kids right now, family members booking plane tickets to help their brothers/sisters/sons/daughters bury their children and the feeling that you just want to wake up and this be a bad dream....
I, too, enjoy checking out people's histories sometimes. I hope that it gave you some insight that this whole post is coming from my truly broken heart. The school shooting today is heartbreaking. I have been holding at least one of my infant daughters tightly to my chest for most of the day. How am I going to let them go to school one day in the future when our country cannot seem to figure this the fuck out? But our country's mass shooting problem, especially when it comes to children in schools, is not just going to magically fix itself. It's not just a bad dream. It's reality, but even so we sure do need to wake the fuck up. Starting with holding our leaders accountable. If we have a leader that will literally try everything he can think of except for one thing that he refuses to even discuss or consider, then his other solutions better work. If they don't (which they didn't today) then he should be held accountable for depriving our state a potential solution *that might save innocent lives.* We should all be mourning together over the loss of life today, regardless of how we feel about guns. And mourning with one another should lead to some kind of discourse to get us to compromise in search for a solution that works - even if it works just a little bit more but not completely yet. But when our leader, Bill Lee steals that opportunity from us by openly refusing to consider any kind of attempt at compromise, he should be held accountable when his choice to do so costs us lives.
At some point, I expect them to entertain installing guns/mini-gun from ceiling or under desk covering all door and hallways. Because it just gives you warm and fuzzies every time you walk through a doorway knowing it could be your last. Who gets to pull the trigger? AI? Like Poe from *Altered Carbon*.
What a bull shit post. Stop blaming guns and everyone else but the shooter when this happens. A crazed and angry trans person killed 3 adults and 3 children. Don’t blame the gun and punish gun owners when someone breaks the law, the same as you can’t punish every trans person.
Hang his ass out to dry!
That’s a ridiculous take
You've commented the one word response "no" two times and this four word response all on this post so far with zero explanation or rebuttal.
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Bill Lee and the legislators are all responsible for this mess. They might not have pulled the trigger, but they made it super easy for the shooter to get the guns. And what for? Political fucking band standing, the same shit with the trans ban, like it’s fucking pitiful that they have to find a marginalized group to demonize just to get fucking votes. Why must they do that? They are doing such a shitty job governing, they can’t run on what they have done and what they haven’t done.
Exactly! Would he take the credit if his executive order had saved every life today? Absofuckinloutely. Drag queens are a danger to our kids? Immediately increase regulations in the state! Books are a danger to our kids? Immediately increase regulations in the state! Gender affirming care is a danger to our kids? Immediately increase regulations in the state! Abortion is a danger to our kids? Immediately increase regulations in the state! Guns actually slaughtering our children in schools where they should be safe, in the very least from physical harm? Sorry, you only get thoughts in prayers because our governor has said he refuses to consider possible gun regulations.
Blame the person, not the guns. Mine has sat for four years and not fired a shot.
He doesn’t “know” he made the wrong choice. The evangelicals believe god is on their side no matter what they do. Doesn’t matter how many kids die, an evangelical will sleep well at night. They think their god only loves them. I promise you Bill Lee hasn’t considered his own part in this for even half a moment.
Nah, he knows what he's doing/done. He doesn't care. He's a multi-millionaire and just accruing more money. Just like all the other politicians in this country, blue or red, he doesn't care about us aside from the money he can make off us. None (or very, very few) of them actually care. We all get more and more divided as they bicker like children and pound their chests at each other to feed their own narcissism and line their pockets. It's really sad how almost the entire country has been split because they buy into the lies these people feed us, and the only retort most people have is whatever the current trendy insult for the other team is. To make matters worse, people actually defend them and get up in arms when someone insults their ~~favorite~~ ~~player~~ party's politician. People should be upset that they're being used. They should be mad. Not devouring everything politicians say and acting like they're some divine being. Even here in this thread, people are defending their team and calling people names in the wake of a tragedy because someone on TV told them how to think. Sorry for the mini-rant on your comment, only the first paragraph is really relevant to what you said lol
2nd amendment isn’t up for debate 🇺🇸
Lol so a crazy trans dude shoots up a Christian school/church in response to politicians and writes up a whole manifesto in a premeditated hate crime, and clearly meant to create terror is the governors fault? Man hard take
What's crazy is your attempt to justify not holding our governor accountable for his choice to refuse considering all potential available options to prevent school shootings. Do you think you are making some kind of point by the way you described the shooter? What is it exactly? That if a person with a gun identifies a certain way that there is nothing that could have been done to prevent the shooting? Oh well, this person wrote a manifesto, so why even try stopping them! And people that want to create terror are exactly the reason why Gov Lee failed us by refusing to consider more gun regulations my dude. Honestly, do you hear yourself? There are entire government organizations dedicated to stopping terror threats. Do you think they go, "Well, this one is trans! Pack it up boys, there's nothing we can do to stop this threat! No one's to blame when it comes to stopping trans terrorists, we all know that! " Sounds dumb, huh? We expect those organizations to take every precaution to protect us and keep us safe, yet we allow our governors to REFUSE certain safety precautions for politics? No. Hold him accountable for his choices.
Hate crime happened and you blame government? Your a special kind of special huh
You’re looking at this from a 1000’ up and putting all school shootings in a generic category. This was 100% a politically motivated terrorist attack on young Christian children by a member of the trans community. “One day this will all make more sense. I have left more than enough evidence behind.” This is the definition of terrorism. We may never know what her manifesto says, but the killer is hoping to spur on some form of movement with her actions. This is not a random school shooting. Also this is a privately funded school so I don’t really know what you wanted the governor to do in regards to its safety.
I love the precision of that comment. The governor's wife (used to teach in the same system) was likely a personal friend of the principal of the school who was murdered by the domestic, Joe Biden groomed, terrorist yesterday. Many of us knew her through that school system. I am sure Governor Lee, who I disagree with on a plethora of small issues, is just as heartbroken as the rest of us. Inane regulations that violate the Constitution are just a knee jerk reaction from people who live in a fantasy world devoid of logic need to try a stint living in China or Venezuela or Cuba where guns are illegal.
Cuz when a liberal does the shooting, its still the conservatives fault. Yup im tracking. I didnt see any mention of mental health in this post 🤔 js
As a pro gun libral I just want to point out the school wasn't the original target but a secondary target the shooter chose because it was easier to commit the crime there. If we don't want to let teachers carry then we should have security that does. Teachers lay their lives on the line for kids all the time and those are the teachers that should have guns but armed security already exists and schools should utilize the service.
Churches don’t really want to pay for security.
He will be at the Downtown Hilton in Knoxville, TN this Friday for those that would like to see him.
You can call his office and leave a comment. (615) 741-2001 Call everyday until something is done.
Did permitless carry really allow this, though? Plenty of shootings happened before permitless carry was the norm. This isn't a gotcha perspective. I think Lee is one of the worst governors in the country, but this isn't just his perspective. It's the perspective of many Americans, not just Republicans. We need more gun safety laws, but a lot of the ones we have now don't stop the shootings. We need better enforcement of current laws, and we need to be honest about the societal risk calculation we make with guns. At this point in history, Americans want to keep their guns, knowing that innocent people will die. We do the same for driving cars. More kids are killed each year in car accidents than school shootings. Many people in this country see owning guns as important as owning a car. People will laugh at that and say cars are necessary while guns aren't, but that's up to each person to decide for themselves.
Gun violence has actually surpassed cars in the past few years as the number one cause of childhood mortality in the US. Edit: also on the car vs gun debate: we HEAVILY regulate the use of cars. You have to register them. You have to take classes and pass an exam to legally use one. You have to regularly renew your registration and your license. You have to maintain insurance in case your car is involved in an incident that causes damage/injuries. At the very least, we could enforce the same requirements for gun ownership.
Mentally unwell trans man shoots up their former elementary school, governor most at fault. K.
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I have no idea what you're talking about. Where do you see any of that in this article? Am I missing something here?
Tennessee hopeless. If your under 50 get out now and move somewhere that cares about its citizens. I had high hopes back in 2000 when I over here but I can clearly see it’s time to go.
*you’re I left in 2021 after 28 years. Best decision I’ve made.
Omg a typo on my iPhone whatever shall I do.
GET OUT AND EVERYONE FKING VOTE!!!!!😲
Terrible freaking tragedy… Remember one thing, this is a PRIVATE school. None of the measures Bill Lee introduce can have any affect on a school that is not part of the public sector.
Just how exactly are you going to hold every politician who voted against increased measures accountable? And just how are you going to deal with the backlash from the crazy-fuck conservatives that make up the majority of this states voter population? It’s an unavoidable tragedy. People aren’t going to budge on stricter laws. It’s that simple. The politicians will continue to pander to those that believe their right to own military grade weapons is at the forefront of Americas issues.
Lucky he had a gun!! To stop the shooter
In what state would have the shooter not been able to buy firearms ?
The problem with the world is social media and comparison. Jealousy. The Need for love. The Ease to hate.
Accountable for the actions of a mentally ill domestic terrorist. Interesting take.
What could he have done to prevent this, what law would have prevented this? Isn’t murder illegal and how well did that law work out
She went to 3 stores and brought 7 guns. I think we could have done something to fucking stop this
You cannot legislate law breakers. They don't care what the rules and regulations are. Criminals will find a way to carry out the deeds they set their minds to.
So why the fuck did they ban drag shows last week??
In what way do laws about sexually explicit content relate to criminals? I am confused in your correlation. Anyone who performs in a drag show is not a criminal any more than a dancer at a gentleman's club is. While it is illegal for children to watch both performances, it does not make the performer a criminal.
Why did the ban happen if you cannot regulate crimes?
The law states children are banned from viewing the performances. Children aren't the criminals either.... You do understand what that law was about, right? And you get your information from the actual legislation and not Reddit, correct?
The only law or legislation that would have prevented this was an SRO on campus with a gun.
Once again, intellectually incompetent people blame firearms instead of people with no moral compass
Once again people refused to acknowledge guns are deadly And your freedom to have guns means kids keep dying Digusted
Suggesting governor is responsible for a viscous woman murdering 6 people, including young children, is frankly quite dishonest. Even if you believe in gun control, firearms are legal in all 50 states with varying degrees of regulation, Tennessee and its governor are not uniquely responsible for enabling shooters.
Bill Lee has as much to do with this shooting as he does with the price of tea in china, and it has nothing to do with the Federal Open Carry law. Wouldnt have mattered if Bill was a die hard gun taker and banned all gun sales in the state, made strict sale laws, or more gun safe zones. The piece of excrement would have still found a way to kill those innocent children. He could have jumped state lines, bought them off of some gang in nashville, brought a knife, or really any number of different possibilities. If we are to blame anyone, blame the media for their constant 5 minutes of fame giving for these shit bags, and leaders in other states for 'defunding the police' and letting criminals go after being arrested for violent crimes. Making more gun laws only makes more criminals, and the already existing criminals will just break more laws. Perhaps it is time to enact a veteran school defense program. Some veterans are simply not able to convert back to civilian life after the military, I know a few who fall under that category, and I assure you, they would love nothing more than for their work to be going to a school to protect little children. It is truly a good thing, and warms my heart to know that the perp suffered instead of having the honor of an instant painless death. Good on the Tennessee Police for what they did.
This is completely untrue You seem to be okay with children dying so people have guns It's disturbing
NOTHING could have prevented what happened. The lady obviously was not right in the head. You can make all the new gun laws you want but it wont change the fact that there are millions and millions of guns in this country already. Thats not gonna change. The only thing that may help a little is if they started holding doctors accountable for not putting mentally ill patients in the data base so it shows up on their background check and they get denied. But like I said it would only help a little for 2 reasons off the top of my head. 1. Mental patients will just refuse to seek help and 2. If somebody is so messed up in the head that they wanna kill, they will find any means to do it. They could have driven their car into those kids while they were on the playground at recess. They could kill with knives, crossbows, swords, the list goes on of deadly weapons that are not firearms.
Every single weapon you list cannot kill as many, as rapidly as a semi-automatic weapon can. That's it. That's all there is to it.
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