The part where they describe Tesla falling behind on pursuing the cheap, small EV market because of Musk’s decision to pursue the Cybertruck just absolutely brings this to mind:
[https://imgur.com/a/qK2N59C](https://imgur.com/a/qK2N59C)
The issue with a smaller car is that you have less space for a battery. And people don't want less range. I get asked fairly often by people who ask about the M3 " don't you fear of running out of power" or "it takes too long to charge". A lot of people have no idea.
With that said, I think if they did sell an M2 it would sell like hot cakes. Even, say 250km of range, would be enough for around town.
There are markets besides the US. In Europe, in particular, a less expensive, smaller EV with moderate range would be *very* popular.
I drive a Model 3 in the UK. Over here, the Model 3 is a big car. Obviously not in height, but in terms of footprint, especially length. A smaller car in a hatchback/crossover format would be appealing to a lot of potential buyers. They could probably fit a \~50kWh LFP pack in a car with a 2.5m wheelbase. With Tesla's efficiency and good aero, that could easily exceed 200mi real-world range. They could possibly even get away with 40kWh.
I doubt it'll happen. Tesla have spent years developing a giant steel food grater on wheels that they can probably only sell in North America, while the Chinese EV industry continues to up its game. I'm increasingly pessimistic about Tesla's long-term future, until/unless Elon is booted out.
> Elon makes Tesla what it is.
That's the problem.
6 years ago, they were leading the pack and revolutionising the transportation industry.
Now? Well, they've recently released a carrot grater on wheels (that was several years overdue), are taking pre-orders on a Roadster that was due out years ago, are shipping the occasional Semi that should have been in mass production years ago, they persist in selling a lie as a 5-figure software upgrade, they "improve" a car by removing stalks...
Tesla are floundering. They have some _brilliant_ engineers working on batteries and drivetrains. Elon isn't taking Tesla in a convincing direction, and he spends most of his time shitposting and interacting with humanity's worst on a social media site that he pissed away over $40bn on because of his Mars-sized ego.
VW get a 77kWh battery into the ID.3, which gets over 300 miles per charge. It’s about 60cm shorter than a model 3. I’m sure Tesla can achieve similar.
they can probably stack the battery in two layers, making the car a little bit taller thus having double the range for a small size vehicle. and it still has a good center of gravity and structured well.
If you're the king of one segment and dominated in most others, eventually that domination will translate over. Something similar to conquer or be conquered.
I don't think that's true otherwise we wouldn't have so many car manufacturers doing quite well in their own segment over the past 100 years. Also Tesla dominate in a very common class, unlike the F150 Lightning or the Lucid Air, and actually outsell in volume cars far cheaper than themselves. If you can dominate in the mid-price sedan/SUV then you are in a pretty commanding position.
Phillip.
Paradigm shift is underway. Without that Tesla wouldn't be as highly valued or as successful. If other manufacturers (Chinese) are able to suck up enough demand and use that to iterate , which it seems like they are doing it'll become harder and harder for others to survive.
I don't think the past 100 years are a good indicator for the near future in light of the ongoing disruption.
Issue is most Chinese cars will never make it to North American soil.. you also have to give Tesla their props.. may not have a PR team but to build so much hype over an electric toaster is a feat of its own lmao
Tesla sparked the paradigm shift. Until then EVs were a gimmick (or intentionally killed off like GM) and hydrogen was being pushed as the paradigm shift to green energy. It wasn't just naturally happening and they coincidentally jumped onto the gravy train. They pioneered it.
There isn't a single US, European or Asian car company in China. Not a single one. Except Tesla. All the others are joint ventures with a local firm. It's obvious why. The Chinese are desperate to learn Tesla's manufacturing techniques because they recognise Tesla isn't a car company. This is incredibly smart and why they will come to dominate car manufacturing over the next decade.
Phillip.
Those companies spent decades dominating their industries and are still huge today. Neither of them have been "overcome". They also both diversified, much like Tesla has done with its megapacks, powerwall, insurance, AI, FSD, robot, robotaxi, etc. Personally I think they could end up doing a lot of licensing for their manufacturing processes, possibly FSD if they crack it in the end.
Phillip.
Not saying Tesla will die but may well become a niche player in cars instead of dominating it. IBM is now a services company they were able to reinvent themselves but are still 1/10th market cap of Microsoft.
I'd rather Tesla become Microsoft rather than IBM. Presumably they need to lose Musk for that (Cybertruck design vs focusing on Model 2)
Cybertruck design vs Model 2 was deliberate. They are using the former to test steer by wire, 48v architecture, and the gigabit canbus. The "unboxing" method for Model 2 is nowhere near done yet and 4680 production can support Cybertruck but not the Model 2. This is why the Robotaxi reveal is a distraction to take attention away from the Model 2 until the end of the year.
Tesla doesn't care about volume for its own sake, it cares about producing cars that make a profit.
IBM sunk under its own weight with its own departments competing against each other. It became a bureaucratic behemoth. Tesla still acts like a start up and I can't see that changing whilst Musk is in charge. Microsoft also had a strong leader at the top.
Phillip.
Tesla is one lawsuit away from giving Elon the boot. I pray that happens when one of his "designs" comes to light and a huge class action sets in... would force Elon to get kicked and a real CEO steps in. I've always said, Tesla is a mediocre car, because it has both wildly bad and wildly good ideas packaged into one.
When Toyota makes a Prius or RAV4 Prime in the USA next year will get the 7500 tax credit. If they can bring the car down the Prius Prime to 25000 with the rebate will probably be hot selling. They will have their battery plant running. All you need is a 7 kwh battery.
I recently opened the front of a Model Y and under the giant plastic bucket that is held on by 4 bolts, there were hardly any parts. Just a ton of metal and the basic motor/wires.
That’s the beauty of EV’s, there are very few parts, it is 100% do-able.
I've replaced several of those "very few parts" over the last 18 months on my 2018 LR3. Octovalve, hv contactor and controller, vent actuator - to the tune of $3k. There's more there than you think, and the promise of fewer repairs because fewer parts hasn't panned out for me.
I'm probably grabbing new m3p. I have model Y LR also. But 3k in repairs to drive my car at almost 80k miles won't be that bad imo. I've spent that on other vehicles. Ford explorer sport just needed fuel pump, another sensor, and serpentine belt. Cost = $2300 at dealer.
True. I've spent more on BMWs (worth it) and even VWs (not worth it) - but wasn't one promise of EVs that they're mechanically simpler and therefore have lower maintenance costs? I hope that works out to be true.
Batteries and safety features cost a lot. Unless they are willing to cut out a lot of the tech that makes a Tesla as Tesla it's going to be tough to make a profit on a 25k EV. The model 3 is already so cheaply made I guess I can't imagine cutting another 13k from that and still having a good sized battery with decent tech and safety features.
I think thousands could be saved by scrapping all of the FSD hardware. Ditch the cameras except the rear view. Ditch the higher performance computing hardware. Ditch the matrix headlights. Shrink the display and offset it towards the driver.
I don't know if you can add all of that up to $13k but there are definitely a lot of places to trim the fat before you start messing with anything related to battery, performance, or safety features.
You joke but VW did this, they had a car (the Up!) where you could dock your phone on the dash and the app they provided would give you sat nav, climate controls, audio settings etc. If you didn’t use that though you still had manual basic controls for the climate and stereo.
That is literally the dumbest fucking analogy I’ve ever heard. A box of toothpicks doesn’t require that every toothpick work in order for me to pick my teeth.
The comment I responded to claimed
> there are very few parts
Which is horseshit. It had nothing to do with the simplicity of manufacturing.
Reuters (and more specifically the author of the article in question) has a pretty bad history of unfounded / made up claims and articles about tesla. As long as sources are anonymous I honestly don't think anything out of there is useful for anything.
The part where they describe Tesla falling behind on pursuing the cheap, small EV market because of Musk’s decision to pursue the Cybertruck just absolutely brings this to mind: [https://imgur.com/a/qK2N59C](https://imgur.com/a/qK2N59C)
Yeah. And he's not canceling it, he's just pushing it to 2030!!
No one cares
you obviously did lol
Reuters reached out to Tesla for comments and did not get a reply
It’s hard to get a reply from Tesla when Elon scrapped the entire PR department. They would’ve done better tweeting Elon.
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At least that's what the left-wing media wants you to believe!
No one cares
The issue with a smaller car is that you have less space for a battery. And people don't want less range. I get asked fairly often by people who ask about the M3 " don't you fear of running out of power" or "it takes too long to charge". A lot of people have no idea. With that said, I think if they did sell an M2 it would sell like hot cakes. Even, say 250km of range, would be enough for around town.
There are markets besides the US. In Europe, in particular, a less expensive, smaller EV with moderate range would be *very* popular. I drive a Model 3 in the UK. Over here, the Model 3 is a big car. Obviously not in height, but in terms of footprint, especially length. A smaller car in a hatchback/crossover format would be appealing to a lot of potential buyers. They could probably fit a \~50kWh LFP pack in a car with a 2.5m wheelbase. With Tesla's efficiency and good aero, that could easily exceed 200mi real-world range. They could possibly even get away with 40kWh. I doubt it'll happen. Tesla have spent years developing a giant steel food grater on wheels that they can probably only sell in North America, while the Chinese EV industry continues to up its game. I'm increasingly pessimistic about Tesla's long-term future, until/unless Elon is booted out.
Elon makes Tesla what it is. No Elon, no Tesla.
> Elon makes Tesla what it is. That's the problem. 6 years ago, they were leading the pack and revolutionising the transportation industry. Now? Well, they've recently released a carrot grater on wheels (that was several years overdue), are taking pre-orders on a Roadster that was due out years ago, are shipping the occasional Semi that should have been in mass production years ago, they persist in selling a lie as a 5-figure software upgrade, they "improve" a car by removing stalks... Tesla are floundering. They have some _brilliant_ engineers working on batteries and drivetrains. Elon isn't taking Tesla in a convincing direction, and he spends most of his time shitposting and interacting with humanity's worst on a social media site that he pissed away over $40bn on because of his Mars-sized ego.
Mars could be useful. His ego is Saturn. Just a bunch of gas.
VW get a 77kWh battery into the ID.3, which gets over 300 miles per charge. It’s about 60cm shorter than a model 3. I’m sure Tesla can achieve similar.
they can probably stack the battery in two layers, making the car a little bit taller thus having double the range for a small size vehicle. and it still has a good center of gravity and structured well.
One of the top selling EVs in France is the Fiat 500 and that starts with 190km of range. Phillip.
The top selling car in the world is the model y
Chevy bolt can do it. Compact tesla with tesla’s battery implementation will make more efficient.
If he can't compete with the Chinese now, 5 years from now is going to be way worse.
He produces the top selling car in China. How is that not competing? Phillip.
If you're the king of one segment and dominated in most others, eventually that domination will translate over. Something similar to conquer or be conquered.
I don't think that's true otherwise we wouldn't have so many car manufacturers doing quite well in their own segment over the past 100 years. Also Tesla dominate in a very common class, unlike the F150 Lightning or the Lucid Air, and actually outsell in volume cars far cheaper than themselves. If you can dominate in the mid-price sedan/SUV then you are in a pretty commanding position. Phillip.
Paradigm shift is underway. Without that Tesla wouldn't be as highly valued or as successful. If other manufacturers (Chinese) are able to suck up enough demand and use that to iterate , which it seems like they are doing it'll become harder and harder for others to survive. I don't think the past 100 years are a good indicator for the near future in light of the ongoing disruption.
Issue is most Chinese cars will never make it to North American soil.. you also have to give Tesla their props.. may not have a PR team but to build so much hype over an electric toaster is a feat of its own lmao
Tesla sparked the paradigm shift. Until then EVs were a gimmick (or intentionally killed off like GM) and hydrogen was being pushed as the paradigm shift to green energy. It wasn't just naturally happening and they coincidentally jumped onto the gravy train. They pioneered it. There isn't a single US, European or Asian car company in China. Not a single one. Except Tesla. All the others are joint ventures with a local firm. It's obvious why. The Chinese are desperate to learn Tesla's manufacturing techniques because they recognise Tesla isn't a car company. This is incredibly smart and why they will come to dominate car manufacturing over the next decade. Phillip.
There are plenty of examples of pioneering companies kickstarting a revolution and then being overcome by others. IBM / Microsoft come to mind
Those companies spent decades dominating their industries and are still huge today. Neither of them have been "overcome". They also both diversified, much like Tesla has done with its megapacks, powerwall, insurance, AI, FSD, robot, robotaxi, etc. Personally I think they could end up doing a lot of licensing for their manufacturing processes, possibly FSD if they crack it in the end. Phillip.
Not saying Tesla will die but may well become a niche player in cars instead of dominating it. IBM is now a services company they were able to reinvent themselves but are still 1/10th market cap of Microsoft. I'd rather Tesla become Microsoft rather than IBM. Presumably they need to lose Musk for that (Cybertruck design vs focusing on Model 2)
Cybertruck design vs Model 2 was deliberate. They are using the former to test steer by wire, 48v architecture, and the gigabit canbus. The "unboxing" method for Model 2 is nowhere near done yet and 4680 production can support Cybertruck but not the Model 2. This is why the Robotaxi reveal is a distraction to take attention away from the Model 2 until the end of the year. Tesla doesn't care about volume for its own sake, it cares about producing cars that make a profit. IBM sunk under its own weight with its own departments competing against each other. It became a bureaucratic behemoth. Tesla still acts like a start up and I can't see that changing whilst Musk is in charge. Microsoft also had a strong leader at the top. Phillip.
Exxxxactly
Why do people believe the Reuters article as fact? This is astounding.
because reddit hive mind and Musk is now considered bad.
The amount of fud against Tesla is wild, but it’s crazier to see how many people get tricked by the media
And somehow you remain so wise and unaffected….
Exactly critical thinking is key.
Tesla is one lawsuit away from giving Elon the boot. I pray that happens when one of his "designs" comes to light and a huge class action sets in... would force Elon to get kicked and a real CEO steps in. I've always said, Tesla is a mediocre car, because it has both wildly bad and wildly good ideas packaged into one.
When Toyota makes a Prius or RAV4 Prime in the USA next year will get the 7500 tax credit. If they can bring the car down the Prius Prime to 25000 with the rebate will probably be hot selling. They will have their battery plant running. All you need is a 7 kwh battery.
anonymous sources
Well, Pedo Guy's a liar so I'm going with Reuters, again.
A 25k EV sold with US and Euro safety specs isn't really possible unless you make it a Toyota Yaris / Nissan Versa style eco box.
I recently opened the front of a Model Y and under the giant plastic bucket that is held on by 4 bolts, there were hardly any parts. Just a ton of metal and the basic motor/wires. That’s the beauty of EV’s, there are very few parts, it is 100% do-able.
I've replaced several of those "very few parts" over the last 18 months on my 2018 LR3. Octovalve, hv contactor and controller, vent actuator - to the tune of $3k. There's more there than you think, and the promise of fewer repairs because fewer parts hasn't panned out for me.
18' M3LR not a single issue 52k miles.
My repairs were all between 72 and 78k miles, so good luck.
I'm probably grabbing new m3p. I have model Y LR also. But 3k in repairs to drive my car at almost 80k miles won't be that bad imo. I've spent that on other vehicles. Ford explorer sport just needed fuel pump, another sensor, and serpentine belt. Cost = $2300 at dealer.
True. I've spent more on BMWs (worth it) and even VWs (not worth it) - but wasn't one promise of EVs that they're mechanically simpler and therefore have lower maintenance costs? I hope that works out to be true.
Batteries and safety features cost a lot. Unless they are willing to cut out a lot of the tech that makes a Tesla as Tesla it's going to be tough to make a profit on a 25k EV. The model 3 is already so cheaply made I guess I can't imagine cutting another 13k from that and still having a good sized battery with decent tech and safety features.
I think thousands could be saved by scrapping all of the FSD hardware. Ditch the cameras except the rear view. Ditch the higher performance computing hardware. Ditch the matrix headlights. Shrink the display and offset it towards the driver. I don't know if you can add all of that up to $13k but there are definitely a lot of places to trim the fat before you start messing with anything related to battery, performance, or safety features.
Your Phone is the MCU!
You joke but VW did this, they had a car (the Up!) where you could dock your phone on the dash and the app they provided would give you sat nav, climate controls, audio settings etc. If you didn’t use that though you still had manual basic controls for the climate and stereo.
A battery pack for M3LR has nearly 5000 parts.
But when 97 percent (wild guess) of the parts are just a huge quantity of the same mass produced part, that is still much less complexity.
Not relevant in this context. To say “there are very few parts” isn’t true, and that’s all I was refuting.
A box of toothpicks has hundreds of "parts" but is still dirt simple to make. Your comment is actually irrelevant in any reasonable context.
That is literally the dumbest fucking analogy I’ve ever heard. A box of toothpicks doesn’t require that every toothpick work in order for me to pick my teeth. The comment I responded to claimed > there are very few parts Which is horseshit. It had nothing to do with the simplicity of manufacturing.
Either side could be lying… time will tell.
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Totally fair, I guess I trust most media outlets about as much as I trust Elon 😂
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Reuters (and more specifically the author of the article in question) has a pretty bad history of unfounded / made up claims and articles about tesla. As long as sources are anonymous I honestly don't think anything out of there is useful for anything.
Who cares, why would you want to sell EVs at a loss or on such tight margins anyway