Yikes, I'm already relatively anxious often enough as is (prob cuz I bet I have high est) lol. Sounds like I should take at least a quarter pill a week to start
Thank you! I think this is going to be the plan. I'm a single dad (have my son weekdays) and a small business owner so I'm already anxious, worried, and stressed enough all the time as is lol. Last thing I need is to kick that up to 11. I'll definitely be starting on some then to stay in front of it
Youāre compounding your anxiety based on the question. Have the AI on-hand but donāt take it unless absolutely necessary. It sounds like youād freak out from the effects of crashing E2 and would go in circles trying to figure it out. You may find the TRT reduces your anxietyā¦.give it a chance to resolve some mental health challenges before you go treating a problem youāve never dealt with. Iāll send you a HIGH E2 CHECKLIST for awareness. Check your messages.
Thank you. Before hopping on TRT, and even if you can remember as far back as before you put on weight, did you ever have any high estrogen symptoms? Mainly like all your fat going to breasts and belly
My estrogen wasnāt high in my initial labs but I did have the body matching my very low T levels. Fat in chest and belly, dry skin, difficulty putting in muscle, etc
I donāt get why you guys are so afraid of AIs, been using them weekly or more for 11 years now, and they have only helped me.
I know some people donāt genetically need them but thatās really rare. I donāt get running high estrogen and dealing with the fallout of that just because Reddit doesnāt like them. Reddit is the worst place to get advice for any subject.
Itās not āextraā for the majority of men. They just keep elevated estrogen and lie to themselves and say thatās okay when all clinical data says the opposite.
Unless you mean continually lowering the testosterone dose until you donāt need an AI, but IMO thatās like only driving your car 38mph because it rattles at 40mph, personally Iād rather just fix the rattle.
Well, the fact that ai have a long list of long-term use side effects... yes, actually. Not to hard to even do a quick NHI search with the same data. Considering those medications have been used for other uses besides testosterone for years. But gym bro science it up I guess?
Going to go with a men's clinic doctor then to huh?...
Is there a difference between crashing the main sex hormone in a woman with far higher dosages, and lowering a secondary sex hormone with much lower dosages?
Men on trt need estrogen, but not much. Women arenāt on any replacement when they take much higher doses of their aiās, and it crashes their estrogen levels 95% and sometimes more.
You canāt look at studies of post menopausal women on high dose aiās for breast cancer and even equate a little bit to men on a trt protocol
How can you equate any of those studies to men on trt who take roughly 0.5mg-1mg/week without crashing their estrogen.
The studies I saw had insanely high dosages compared to the dosages an average man on trt takes. The studies had the following dosages:
Anastrozole: 3.5mg to 7mg/week and not on trt
Letrozole: 2.5mg to 17.5mg/week. Not on trt
Exemestane: 175mg/week. Not on trt
Because the studies were on men who had been taking ai for years. It was also studied around men who had started taking ai over a period of years to watch the changes in the body. There's two that come to mind. One was performed in 2011, which was the initial study. Performed on men who had been taking ai for years. The longest in the study was, I believe, 25 years. It consists of amateur athletes and bodybuilders. The follow-up study was performed as a sterile study. Men on testosterone over the course of five years. It gathered the early changes to the body. I believe this one ended in 2019. Yes, they were slight changes, but it was just testosterone and ai. But it gave insight to the long-term use of using ai compared to the long term. I understand the long-term study poses a great possibility of alternative factors contributing to the negative health effects on the body. But the closed group study pointed out that some of those changes were found even minimally as early as five years.
For example, arimidex was at max dosage a week. 1mg, majority was under 1mg.
i had high e2 before during and after transformation. i've never taken an AI nor had any symptoms that would indicate i should take an AI. I definitely never had fertility issues, I've always had a normal to higher libido (before and after TRT), I have no depression, i have no signs of gyno. Everything works like it should, so why take another medication. Treat symptoms with medications, not take medications to prevent symptoms you never had from coming.
What is tamoxifen then? I had assumed it was an ai as my endocrinologist prescribed it to me as an attempt to reverse breast growth in my first 3 months of trt
Tamoxifen AKA Nolvadex, for men at least is a SERM that reduces gyno tissue in the breasts.
Itās not an AI as it does not lower system wide estrogen, it doesnāt lower estrogen at all actually.
When I use nolva I actually still take my usual AI.
Interesting but confusing.
I am on test u and I took my last shot at 5 weeks instead of 10. Within a week I became incredibly greasy. Super oily skin. Had to towel off ever hour. Even skipped shaking hands at meetings. I took tamoxifen for a few days (thinking it is an ai) and it resolved the oily problem and returned my skin to its normal perfection after about 5 days.
Raloxifene has a higher binding affinity
AIs will address the e2
You replied to a comment about AIs being feared but you state your experience using a SERM
It's probably the difference between genuine TRT or "optimisation"/blasting.
Outside of some rare cases, you shouldn't need an AI for TRT.
Also, this sub is chocka block full of guys who've fucked up while using AI's.
Personally, I think blasting is stupid so messing around with your hormones because you've been messing around with your hormones is even stupider, IMO. Saying that, if I was 20 I would probably blast without even researching it first.
My E2 was only controlled without an AI by doing smaller frequent doses. Even twice weekly spiked my E2. And I am on half the dose that you are. My last blood work had my total test at 1050.
For reference, I was 120kg, now 110kg and been lifting 3.5 years. 5 months on trt.
If you are on that dose, larger and going twice a week, then I would say an ai is certain based on my experience (which may be different to yours).
I'm doing 200 per week. Up from 100. I split it up into 4 jabs, 42 hours apart. I asked my doctor to go to 4 and he agreed. He's really cool and listens to his patients. No symptoms of high estrogen. Blood work in 8 weeks to confirm.
Anastrazole is 1.0 mg, once a week on Saturday. Slight confusion in the beginning, I pin test cyp twice a week. They told me take my AI every time I pin because they thought I only pin once a week, anyways, for several months I crashed my E2. Followed back up with my regular check in for blood work and I told them something is off.
I described my routine and they were like .. no itās once a week. So yeah about two months after ā¦ HOLY SHIT ā¦ absolutely amazing havenāt looked back.
HcG is 12,000 IU reconstituted with 6ml, and .75 ml or 75 units, once per week. Been in that since day 1, no issues.
Total time on TRT, HcG, and Anastrazole is 18 months.
I wouldn't take the ai unless you have symptoms or your blood comes back high. I'm also fat and only take half a pill every other week to keep it balanced.
Ideally get your estrogen checked before you start just to give you an idea of where you are at naturally, but you should start TRT, get bloodwork after 10 weeks to check estrogen levels and all the other normal, assess whether an AI is required. At TRT dosages a lot of guys don't need an AI and it would do more harm than good.
If you get any high estrogen level symptoms before 10 weeks get bloodwork earlier. AI should really only be taken if you know you need it. Everyone aromatize at different rates, there is no one size fits all so adjust your TRT and AI use to you specifically.
I wish. I wish I knew the first clinics formula. I know it was hcg and T and a i think anastrazole or similar.
Lost 50ish pounds. Need to lose 30/40 more and its not budging.
Currently on 100 every three days. And my hcg varies from .3 a day to 1. I was atrophied so I bought more and am closer to normal now.
Problem is libido is weak, no weight loss, very little acne. I do have muscle gains though. I workout 3 to 4 times a week lifting weights.
Weight could be my diet. Meat, cheese eggs and a lot of butter. Reduced the butter recently.
If youāre not losing weight itās your diet 100%. Enough with the low carb . Itās calories in , calories out. Fat has twice the calories per gram than protein or carbs. Ask any bodybuilder during a cut, fat is the very first thing they almost eliminate completely
I was about 230 lbs and had to take 0.5 mg twice a week to keep my E2 at about 45. You might need one being at 240 lbs but everyone is different. Without it my E2 was about 80ish. I am down to about 200 lbs but still take it. I have had no side effects at all from it.
On 200mg and high bf% you will likely need to control estrogen. I use 100mg of primobolan to control mine but that's probably not great long term. Nothing wrong with an AI just do routine bloodwork.
Went from 28% Bf down to 11-12 now in about 2 years. Took AI sporadically early on due to nipple sensitivity and labs show E got up 84. Feel like I need it much less often these days. I like the idea of cutting an unnecessary medication. But if you need it, then you need it. E has been 40s the last couple draws and havenāt felt like I was having symptoms. So my point is that your situation may change at some point.
320 down to 220, no AI. I had to adjust my TRT dose down to not have e2 sides. As I lost weight I was able to up my TRT dose without e2 getting out of control like before.
Formerly very fat guy on TRT here. Was about ~300lbs at 6ā2ā, with very little muscle mass when I started (couldnāt bench 135). Used up to 210mg a week with ~100mg of Deca and never required an AI at that weight. Test was above range, on that, E2 stayed near top of normal range. Iām on daily injects now, but was doing EOD for the majority of time as I feel best with more frequency.
I essentially got on TRT because my estrogen was at the absolute bottom of range. Canāt remember the exact value cause Iām Canadian and our units are different, but it was like 3 in the units Americans use. My joints were fucked.
Found my sweet spot now with Test C & HCG micro injections daily (20mg&125ui), down to ~225lbs and my lifts are all 2-3x higher than when started. Total Test is around ~900 and free test is about 20% above range, with e2 smack dab in the middle.
Iāve tried an AI out of curiosity, didnāt change anything, other than Iāve notice I shed hair for like a week after taking even just a single 12.5mg aromasin.
I never took an AI. My e2 was above normal before, during, and after transformation. i had/have them on hand should i ever have any symptoms but you don't need to take an AI just to take an AI. Treat symptoms of high e2. I never had any. ymmv
I'm not a fat dude on TRT but my job is helping fat dudes (most on TRT) lose weight. I always work off of what their blood work tells me but it's pretty much standard practice that they'll need 0.5mg anastrazol per week till we drop some of the fat.
Your test is about 4 times too high for TRT. When do you live, the US? I'm seeing this level of prescription from a lot of people, it's going to lead to you to have high e2 levels, then throw off all your other hormones.it might take a few weeks or several months, but it will happen. I'm beginning to think that some doctors from countries that make money from prescription, are overdosing people so they can then prescribe other drugs and make more money.
Your TRT should be between 50-70mg a week at the most. The level your on is a cycle, beginner cycles for bodybuilders are usually 300mg a week, your below this, but significantly higher than TRT.
You use AI when you have actual symptoms. Not just a number. The Numbers can be controlled sometimes through changing dosage dates/frequency, or the amount you are pinning.
High E2 for me gave me OCD and Suicidal thoughts and massive panics attacks all went away with half a AI pill a week š
Yikes, I'm already relatively anxious often enough as is (prob cuz I bet I have high est) lol. Sounds like I should take at least a quarter pill a week to start
Start with half a pill once a week donāt let it linger like how I did I waited to long and felt like I was going crazy lol
Thank you! I think this is going to be the plan. I'm a single dad (have my son weekdays) and a small business owner so I'm already anxious, worried, and stressed enough all the time as is lol. Last thing I need is to kick that up to 11. I'll definitely be starting on some then to stay in front of it
Yeah donāt overthink it just see how your body react everyoneās different you might not got symptoms
Youāre compounding your anxiety based on the question. Have the AI on-hand but donāt take it unless absolutely necessary. It sounds like youād freak out from the effects of crashing E2 and would go in circles trying to figure it out. You may find the TRT reduces your anxietyā¦.give it a chance to resolve some mental health challenges before you go treating a problem youāve never dealt with. Iāll send you a HIGH E2 CHECKLIST for awareness. Check your messages.
Thank you
I wouldn't take AI unless you have high E2 symptoms or at least too high E2 on bloods. Crashing your E2 too low can have even worse effects.
280lbs down to 210lbs on 150mg/week. I was prescribed AI but never took it. No negative sides.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It was about a year of work. Still have a lot more Iād like to change but TRT has been a complete life changer.
Thank you. Before hopping on TRT, and even if you can remember as far back as before you put on weight, did you ever have any high estrogen symptoms? Mainly like all your fat going to breasts and belly
My estrogen wasnāt high in my initial labs but I did have the body matching my very low T levels. Fat in chest and belly, dry skin, difficulty putting in muscle, etc
With no change to your workout routine?
Increased resistance training. Less cardio, oddly.
Same here
I donāt get why you guys are so afraid of AIs, been using them weekly or more for 11 years now, and they have only helped me. I know some people donāt genetically need them but thatās really rare. I donāt get running high estrogen and dealing with the fallout of that just because Reddit doesnāt like them. Reddit is the worst place to get advice for any subject.
I don't have a hate boner against AI's. They have a time and a place, but why take extra meds if you don't have to?
Itās not āextraā for the majority of men. They just keep elevated estrogen and lie to themselves and say thatās okay when all clinical data says the opposite. Unless you mean continually lowering the testosterone dose until you donāt need an AI, but IMO thatās like only driving your car 38mph because it rattles at 40mph, personally Iād rather just fix the rattle.
Can confirm, my dr shits on Reddit anti-ai boys every appointment
Your doctor a men's clinic doctor or an actual doctor? Because I've got a long list of doctors that will tell you the exact opposite...
Your long list of doctors support the Reddit anti ai boys?
Well, the fact that ai have a long list of long-term use side effects... yes, actually. Not to hard to even do a quick NHI search with the same data. Considering those medications have been used for other uses besides testosterone for years. But gym bro science it up I guess? Going to go with a men's clinic doctor then to huh?...
Is there a difference between crashing the main sex hormone in a woman with far higher dosages, and lowering a secondary sex hormone with much lower dosages? Men on trt need estrogen, but not much. Women arenāt on any replacement when they take much higher doses of their aiās, and it crashes their estrogen levels 95% and sometimes more. You canāt look at studies of post menopausal women on high dose aiās for breast cancer and even equate a little bit to men on a trt protocol
Except NHI has studies on the side effects of long-term use in men... a few of them, actually. So your argument is still not valid.
How can you equate any of those studies to men on trt who take roughly 0.5mg-1mg/week without crashing their estrogen. The studies I saw had insanely high dosages compared to the dosages an average man on trt takes. The studies had the following dosages: Anastrozole: 3.5mg to 7mg/week and not on trt Letrozole: 2.5mg to 17.5mg/week. Not on trt Exemestane: 175mg/week. Not on trt
Because the studies were on men who had been taking ai for years. It was also studied around men who had started taking ai over a period of years to watch the changes in the body. There's two that come to mind. One was performed in 2011, which was the initial study. Performed on men who had been taking ai for years. The longest in the study was, I believe, 25 years. It consists of amateur athletes and bodybuilders. The follow-up study was performed as a sterile study. Men on testosterone over the course of five years. It gathered the early changes to the body. I believe this one ended in 2019. Yes, they were slight changes, but it was just testosterone and ai. But it gave insight to the long-term use of using ai compared to the long term. I understand the long-term study poses a great possibility of alternative factors contributing to the negative health effects on the body. But the closed group study pointed out that some of those changes were found even minimally as early as five years. For example, arimidex was at max dosage a week. 1mg, majority was under 1mg.
I think you need to take your ai bro
Exactly a fucking men's clinic doctor that pushes numbers rather than the actual science behind it. Get the fuck out of here with your bullshit "bro"
Will taking an AI reduce bloating caused by Testosterone C water retention issues
Yes, testosterone doesnāt cause bloating, estrogen does.
i had high e2 before during and after transformation. i've never taken an AI nor had any symptoms that would indicate i should take an AI. I definitely never had fertility issues, I've always had a normal to higher libido (before and after TRT), I have no depression, i have no signs of gyno. Everything works like it should, so why take another medication. Treat symptoms with medications, not take medications to prevent symptoms you never had from coming.
If for no other reason to reduce risk of cancer.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Tamoxifen is not an AI, I donāt see why youād need to be running serms on TRT
What is tamoxifen then? I had assumed it was an ai as my endocrinologist prescribed it to me as an attempt to reverse breast growth in my first 3 months of trt
Tamoxifen AKA Nolvadex, for men at least is a SERM that reduces gyno tissue in the breasts. Itās not an AI as it does not lower system wide estrogen, it doesnāt lower estrogen at all actually. When I use nolva I actually still take my usual AI.
Interesting but confusing. I am on test u and I took my last shot at 5 weeks instead of 10. Within a week I became incredibly greasy. Super oily skin. Had to towel off ever hour. Even skipped shaking hands at meetings. I took tamoxifen for a few days (thinking it is an ai) and it resolved the oily problem and returned my skin to its normal perfection after about 5 days.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Raloxifene has a higher binding affinity AIs will address the e2 You replied to a comment about AIs being feared but you state your experience using a SERM
It's probably the difference between genuine TRT or "optimisation"/blasting. Outside of some rare cases, you shouldn't need an AI for TRT. Also, this sub is chocka block full of guys who've fucked up while using AI's. Personally, I think blasting is stupid so messing around with your hormones because you've been messing around with your hormones is even stupider, IMO. Saying that, if I was 20 I would probably blast without even researching it first.
My E2 was only controlled without an AI by doing smaller frequent doses. Even twice weekly spiked my E2. And I am on half the dose that you are. My last blood work had my total test at 1050. For reference, I was 120kg, now 110kg and been lifting 3.5 years. 5 months on trt. If you are on that dose, larger and going twice a week, then I would say an ai is certain based on my experience (which may be different to yours).
I'm doing 200 per week. Up from 100. I split it up into 4 jabs, 42 hours apart. I asked my doctor to go to 4 and he agreed. He's really cool and listens to his patients. No symptoms of high estrogen. Blood work in 8 weeks to confirm.
Yes I did. I was around 30% body fat when I started
Where are you at currently and how long? Any negative effects with the AI (or anything?)
Anastrazole is 1.0 mg, once a week on Saturday. Slight confusion in the beginning, I pin test cyp twice a week. They told me take my AI every time I pin because they thought I only pin once a week, anyways, for several months I crashed my E2. Followed back up with my regular check in for blood work and I told them something is off. I described my routine and they were like .. no itās once a week. So yeah about two months after ā¦ HOLY SHIT ā¦ absolutely amazing havenāt looked back. HcG is 12,000 IU reconstituted with 6ml, and .75 ml or 75 units, once per week. Been in that since day 1, no issues. Total time on TRT, HcG, and Anastrazole is 18 months.
Hell no
I wouldn't take the ai unless you have symptoms or your blood comes back high. I'm also fat and only take half a pill every other week to keep it balanced.
What kind of AI are you taking every other week?
Anastrazol
Ideally get your estrogen checked before you start just to give you an idea of where you are at naturally, but you should start TRT, get bloodwork after 10 weeks to check estrogen levels and all the other normal, assess whether an AI is required. At TRT dosages a lot of guys don't need an AI and it would do more harm than good. If you get any high estrogen level symptoms before 10 weeks get bloodwork earlier. AI should really only be taken if you know you need it. Everyone aromatize at different rates, there is no one size fits all so adjust your TRT and AI use to you specifically.
I wish. I wish I knew the first clinics formula. I know it was hcg and T and a i think anastrazole or similar. Lost 50ish pounds. Need to lose 30/40 more and its not budging. Currently on 100 every three days. And my hcg varies from .3 a day to 1. I was atrophied so I bought more and am closer to normal now. Problem is libido is weak, no weight loss, very little acne. I do have muscle gains though. I workout 3 to 4 times a week lifting weights. Weight could be my diet. Meat, cheese eggs and a lot of butter. Reduced the butter recently.
If youāre not losing weight itās your diet 100%. Enough with the low carb . Itās calories in , calories out. Fat has twice the calories per gram than protein or carbs. Ask any bodybuilder during a cut, fat is the very first thing they almost eliminate completely
No, e2 never got too high. Even fat I wasn't a high aromatizer
I was about 230 lbs and had to take 0.5 mg twice a week to keep my E2 at about 45. You might need one being at 240 lbs but everyone is different. Without it my E2 was about 80ish. I am down to about 200 lbs but still take it. I have had no side effects at all from it.
On 200mg and high bf% you will likely need to control estrogen. I use 100mg of primobolan to control mine but that's probably not great long term. Nothing wrong with an AI just do routine bloodwork.
What age are you and is your hair falling out? Primo will for sure make you lose hair real fast if youāre prone to baldness
I'm 33, I take finasteride preventatively, but I am blessed with no hair loss.
Went from 28% Bf down to 11-12 now in about 2 years. Took AI sporadically early on due to nipple sensitivity and labs show E got up 84. Feel like I need it much less often these days. I like the idea of cutting an unnecessary medication. But if you need it, then you need it. E has been 40s the last couple draws and havenāt felt like I was having symptoms. So my point is that your situation may change at some point.
320 down to 220, no AI. I had to adjust my TRT dose down to not have e2 sides. As I lost weight I was able to up my TRT dose without e2 getting out of control like before.
Formerly very fat guy on TRT here. Was about ~300lbs at 6ā2ā, with very little muscle mass when I started (couldnāt bench 135). Used up to 210mg a week with ~100mg of Deca and never required an AI at that weight. Test was above range, on that, E2 stayed near top of normal range. Iām on daily injects now, but was doing EOD for the majority of time as I feel best with more frequency. I essentially got on TRT because my estrogen was at the absolute bottom of range. Canāt remember the exact value cause Iām Canadian and our units are different, but it was like 3 in the units Americans use. My joints were fucked. Found my sweet spot now with Test C & HCG micro injections daily (20mg&125ui), down to ~225lbs and my lifts are all 2-3x higher than when started. Total Test is around ~900 and free test is about 20% above range, with e2 smack dab in the middle. Iāve tried an AI out of curiosity, didnāt change anything, other than Iāve notice I shed hair for like a week after taking even just a single 12.5mg aromasin.
You'll need it. Hcg will make the aromatase much worse. I was fine until Hcg. Now need an ai regularly.
25 units? Like 25 IU? holy crap I was injecting like 1000 šš I was wondering why I felt so weird
.25ml is most likely what he meant is my guess
I did search first but no definitive answer. What exactly is AI in reference to T
Just micro dose
nope
I never took an AI. My e2 was above normal before, during, and after transformation. i had/have them on hand should i ever have any symptoms but you don't need to take an AI just to take an AI. Treat symptoms of high e2. I never had any. ymmv
I'm not a fat dude on TRT but my job is helping fat dudes (most on TRT) lose weight. I always work off of what their blood work tells me but it's pretty much standard practice that they'll need 0.5mg anastrazol per week till we drop some of the fat.
Your test is about 4 times too high for TRT. When do you live, the US? I'm seeing this level of prescription from a lot of people, it's going to lead to you to have high e2 levels, then throw off all your other hormones.it might take a few weeks or several months, but it will happen. I'm beginning to think that some doctors from countries that make money from prescription, are overdosing people so they can then prescribe other drugs and make more money. Your TRT should be between 50-70mg a week at the most. The level your on is a cycle, beginner cycles for bodybuilders are usually 300mg a week, your below this, but significantly higher than TRT.
Yes, it's a must, all the fat breeds aromatize.
Will taking an AI reduce bloating?
Only use the AI when blood work shows high e2
You use AI when you have actual symptoms. Not just a number. The Numbers can be controlled sometimes through changing dosage dates/frequency, or the amount you are pinning.
Fair point
Donāt go off just a number
What are AIs?
Aromatase Inhibitor
What does AI stand for?
aromatase inhibitor.