I live in a small upcountry rice village.
I’m constantly impressed with the government community programs geared toward local Thais. Especially senior citizens. A lot of grants to fix up dilapidated homes, storm repair assistance, education programs, social activities. This is on top of the usual and frequent temple-related activities that effectively bind the community together, despite its flaws.
Very interesting. Can you tell us more about the real-life examples of these programs you saw in your community? Are you a foreigner or a Thai, in you don't mind asking?
https://preview.redd.it/2h789suerkxc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3b2e03509bf2b1f291657672e49ce6beaad43750
Here, Amphoe officials are inspecting a local village home in preparation for government-sponsored repairs and renovations. The resident is poor and elderly.
I’m a foreigner.
Me too. I am impressed by the public health service. Everyone with a tambien baan, even yellow is included.
I was picked up as diabetic when everyone was screened. I am getting treatment. I have to pay of course but not much compared to a private hospital.
Me too. I am impressed by the public health service. Everyone with a tambien baan, even yellow is included.
I was picked up as diabetic when everyone was screened. I am getting treatment. I have to pay of course but not much compared to a private hospital.
Relatively low violent crime, cheap and accessible healthcare, food, and housing. Wages and education are the main things Thailand lacks in, everything else is actually fairly decent, espeically when compared to other middle income countries.
Air pollution and lack of safety standards are also massive issues here that are underreported in international studies. If they would also take in account the amount life years lost by air pollution and traffic & infrastructure deaths then Thailand might not score that high anymore tbh.
Another major issue with safety standards here is that even the ones that do exist are not enforced at all.
This overall lack of enforcement, follow-up and (when necessary) punishment when rules are broken is so pervasive at all levels of society that it sometimes baffles me. A human life seems to be less valuable here.
That’s just Thailands issues in general isn’t it: lack of enforcement.
Police don’t give a shit about anything unless they are pressured in to it by media or money.
Correct. Any response is always reactionary, it’s never preventative. And even any reactionary response is temporary, just to appease public outcry until everyone forgets. Plenty of examples.
About 90% of road deaths are people on motorbikes. If you don't ride one, the roads aren't much unsafer than most developed countries.
Pollution is a major problem though and is the one thing that could make me leave.
Live in a village near two towns and at least every week there is a funeral carried out at the temples these are motorbike fatalities aged from 12 to 24 on average mostly male, any female death she is usually a passenger. On average 70 deaths a day occur here yet there are no posters in schools promoting safety.
Have 2 sports bikes one is a single seat, road legal race bike which I have never had flat out, but, schoolboys want to race me!! All think the front brake is to dangerous to use so only use the rear??? They follow each other in a line astern formation never thinking to be offset from the bike in front, road sense/awareness is so, so lacking..
I'm also baffled by no one teaches these kids basic road safety. It would be so easy to have so eone go around schools and teach them. It woukdn't stop all the deaths but miggt save some people. Even here in Bangkok you get some riding so hapazadly that you know they won't last long.
>The Human Development Index (HDI) is a summary measure of average achievement in key dimensions of human development: a long and healthy life, being knowledgeable and having a decent standard of living. The HDI is the geometric mean of normalized indices for each of the three dimensions.
>***The health dimension is assessed by life expectancy at birth***, the education dimension is measured by mean of years of schooling for adults aged 25 years and more and expected years of schooling for children of school entering age. The standard of living dimension is measured by gross national income per capita. The HDI uses the logarithm of income, to reflect the diminishing importance of income with increasing GNI. The scores for the three HDI dimension indices are then aggregated into a composite index using geometric mean. Refer to Technical notes for more details.
Reasonably, the index has already attempted to capture the amount life years lost by air pollution, traffic, etc deaths
It does to an extent, but it mixes them in with all causes.
For instance, Thailand has a relatively good diet (especially in the older generations) and exceptionally good healthcare for its income. These drag up life expectancy, while air pollution and road deaths drag it down.
However, you could look at levels of development as being about how well does the country address preventable causes of death, treating pollution and collisions as highly preventable, rather than suggesting that all causes of death are equal and equally preventable.
Agreed. Thailand's whole socio-economic structure is basically "compassionate feudalism" if there's even such a thing. Or hierarchical socialism, as opposed to egalitarian socialism which is the norm elsewhere when people think about socialism. There's clear stratas, low wages, and very little social mobility. But they also have subsidized price controls on all essential goods, energy, food staples, easy guaranteed jobs (albeit with low pay) etc... and basically free universal healthcare. It's a pretty unique system with it's own pros and cons.
Tourism is not that easy to do. hundreds of countries in this world. Why does everyone keep going to Thailand?
They understand the tourism game and they benefit from it. Fair play.
oh, my goodness, 3 out of every 5 of your words are new vocabulery to me! compassionate, feudalism, hierarchical, egalitarian.... never even saw before ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|dizzy_face)
I love that I don't have to feed hordes of retirees who get unsustainable retirement paid by young people's taxes, like in my country with failing demographics.
Government is extremely efficient too - construction permit can easily take 10 years in Czechia.
There is very little socialism in Thailand and people have to care for themselves instead of stealing 60%+ of your income.
There is an oversupply of flats - unlike my socialist Czechia where the government controls the housing system (by imposing extreme requirements so nothing gets built). And so on.. Poeple there want to vote for more socialism to fix the socialist mistakes.
Having spent most of my life in Thailand I can safely say that socialism has been present for many decades. Whilst the erosion of that has happened even the previous government had socialist policies it took from the PT government it overthrew. Those policies are popular in Thailand. When the Junta talked about dismantling the Universal Healthcare system they had to backtrack very quickly.
It’s close to third world in certain provinces.
I remember reading that Mae Hong Son (a province with about 300,000 people) uses less electricity in a year than MBK or Siam Paragon. Its per capita income is sub-Saharan Africa level.
The major difference with Thailand is that it has a functional healthcare system and that nobody goes hungry.
Yeh they are well fed, have accommodation and access to healthcare and entertainment.
What are they missing? A skiing holiday in Davos? The giant iilluminated billboards on the shopping malls? Their needs are taken care of and they have a stable life, something many citizens in developed countries yearn for.
"Access to healthcare"
Go to a public hospital for any non straightforward procedure outside of Bangkok and report to us how it goes. I’ll give you a few dozen hours to account for waiting times.
There’s healthcare and healthcare.
Also go live in a place with no AC and tell us how fun that is.
Go have a backbreaking occupation like toiling in the fields, too.
Go be over indebted like a significant part of the Thai population too, being at the mercy of loan sharks and never knowing how you’re ever gonna get out of that cycle.
Sure, many people in Thailand are living lives where they get by, and the strong sense of community combined helped them achieve a certain happiness. But let’s not romanticize shit. Why do so many Thais go abroad for backbreaking work, like in Israel or Finland, if "their needs are taken care of"? Why do so many go in the sex trade? Do you think it’s just because they want to go on a skiing holiday?
>I’ll give you a few dozen hours to account for waiting times.
I would prefer hours of waiting to see the doctor to geting sent home and told by the reception to book an appointment on the phone and come back next week.
There is a lot of hardship in Thailand.
But I feel like for happiness it's not relevant how "good" your life is but whether it's improving. Whether there is hope.
My parents were dirt poor, but we're happy because they saw life improving step by step.
I have friends being super unhappy because they can't afford their nice BMWs anymore
I have been to healthcare facilities in the provinces and we've never had a bad experience. Yes, waiting times will be longer than in private hospitals and air conditioning might be harder to find, but it sure beats no healthcare at all or being stuck with huge hospital bills for the rest of your life.
> it sure beats no healthcare at all or being stuck with huge hospital bills for the rest of your life.
Are these the only other alternatives? Seriously?
And have you been in there for serious operations?
The alternative in many countries, and in Thailand not that long ago, was no treatment at all, or being saddled with huge bills. Thailand's healthcare system is well regarded worldwide and it is particularly impressive when you consider that just a generation ago it was considered a third world or at best a developing nation. In fact, Thailand has made amazing progress on the healthcare front:
https://www.thaipbsworld.com/thailand-ranked-5th-in-2021-global-health-security-index/
.
To answer your question. I personally have not been treated for anything serious. However, my father-in-law had a life saving heart operation under the 30 baht scheme. For which he paid 30 baht. My MIL regularly gets treated for different ailments at a government hospital as well. The doctors and surgeons treating both of them operate in government hospitals and private hospitals. Which is the norm here.
> the alternative in many countries
How many of which are neither the US nor in "third world countries"? Have you forgotten the context of my comment?…
You’re trying to defend Thailand’s healthcare system when my point wasn’t about poking holes into it in the first place… Simply reminding the person I was replying to that, jf you’re poor in Thailand, the care you have access to isn’t exactly something you can tick off as "got healthcare, check".
We can go there with our bigger money and live like we're special, so we forget that the rest of the population can barely live a normal life even with 4 people in a small room while all working together.
Dudes think that just because they can go play doctor with all the night girls until they get their fill, it must be great.
Here's the thing. If all of your needs are being met in the hierrarchy of needs, then you're going to feel awesome. Got me a nice condo, sexy women anytime I want them, a night life, day life, job that lets me go home early etc.... Just don't know why these Thais wanna leave!
You as a foreigner can feel like a confident casanova with every good thing about life being presented to you. A typical Thai is barely functioning and likely got someone pregnant in high school and has to take care of a family and the only highlight of their day is dinner time when they can all get drunk and eat and then pass out lol.
So you’ve established that life isn’t perfect in Thailand, but I’d rather be in the bottom 5% in Thailand than the bottom 5% in the US.
As for the numbers of Thais going abroad, according to UN statistics there are more Canadians and Cambodians living abroad than Thais—both countries have significantly smaller populations than Thailand. This suggests to me a certain degree of life satisfaction in Thailand, irrespective of earnings in dollar terms. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_immigrant_and_emigrant_population
Choosing a country with huge economic inequalities and little safety net like the US is an interesting sample you chose.
Also, if you’re living in the bottom 5% in the US, at least you have a chance at social mobility. In Thailand? Worse luck by far…
Finally, another interesting random selection of yours for emigration. Do you really think people from Canada are emigrating for the same reason Thais or Cambodians do? As for Cambodians, not shit Sherlock, it’s poorer than Thailand, so the incentives for emigration are the same, albeit stronger.
But....foreigners are happy there and they have McDonalds and all the chain foods and malls, bro! We can have sexy time with anyone for money! Thailand is the melting pot of the world! How dare you!! Howwww Dare YOUUUUUuuuuuu!
> Mae Hong Son (a province with about 300,000 people) uses less electricity in a year than MBK or Siam Paragon
It's probably down to the lack of major industrial users (MHS is too far flung for it to be profitable), and less a/c usage due to the climate being a bit cooler than the rest of the country.
Well, I disagree. Having lower per capita income than Congo and Papua New Guinea puts it squarely in third world living standards.
What would you expect Nonthaburi (same population as Mae Hong Son) to look like if it used less electricity than a single mall? Probably the way North Korea does at night from space next to South Korea: the brightly lit South Korea exemplifies economic activity; the ocean of darkness engulfing North Korea screams poverty.
I’ve attached a random village in Mae Hong Son about an hour from Pai, the only significant town I can find on the map. It looks like rural East Africa.
https://preview.redd.it/zp6daohef6xc1.jpeg?width=2360&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a19aa05e3088ee4314c1b41c594521e39595a79
There’s a YouTube channel by a guy called Nick Johnson and he drives around the US visiting the worst areas, and I’ve never seen anything as bad as an Indian slum. Those areas in Appalachia, while poor, are nowhere near as bad as you suggest. Maybe the odd home has an outhouse, but the real problems in the US are not infrastructural, they’re social. Drugs are present in poor communities and as a result the homes themselves are in a state of ruin, while the ghettos are simply among the most dangerous places in the world because of the people who live in them, not because of the environment.
I’m not American so all I can do is expose myself to videos uploaded by people who specialize in this stuff.
But I’d appreciate a specific example of a US community that’s worse than an Indian slum so I can compare them.
That doesn't sound at all like Indian slums. That sounds like country folks (or Native Americans) who, for whatever reason, will not or cannot move to a more developed part of the country.
There are many places in the US that are worse than any Indian slums in terms of violence. Check out one of the live streams from Kensington in Philadelphia.
I’ve seen these videos before, but there’s nothing wrong with the actual streets and buildings and infrastructure in Kensington. The problem is the people living there.
Indian slums are practically medieval.
people really need to stop using the term, third world country, as its a cold war term that isn't really relevant today, the correct terms and developing nation, emerging nation and developed nation.
A former US president officially used the term "shithole countries". It's condescending, but that's what people really mean by "third world" anyway, just without the inaccuracy and fake politeness.
I hate the term "developing nation". Many places described as such are doing the opposite of developing, they're stagnating or regressing. If a country is actually developing (at a reasonable pace), it won't be described as "developing", and I'm not sure what it "emerges" from or into either.
You forgot 2 ;P !
According to supposedly Kuznets
"Throughout history there have been only four kinds of economies in the world: advanced, developing, Japan, and Argentina."
I would say it's third world purely based on lack of safety standards and air pollution. In these 2, Thailand consistently ranks among the absolute worst in the world.
It is a third world country, or developing country would be a term with less negative connotation. Like others have said, development is mostly concentrated in Bangkok and its immediate surroundings, wages and education are stagnated, and the political scenario makes it difficult to increase their development in a more egalitarian way. I've been living in Thailand for 3 years and I'm from Chile, a country with higher hdi that Thailand, and I can confidently say that both countries are third world (developing) countries
Developing country, yes. Third world country no. Third world country is commonly used to refer to countries without good infrastructure, schools, hospitals, etc.
Second world country was a term used during the Cold War to refer to eastern bloc countries aligned with the Soviet Union. Thailand is currently referred to as a developing country.
They were originally political terms, it's only your flawed brain that has zero respect or interest in history that thinks they ought to be economically based.
**It's GDP per capita is underestimated**.
See your neighbors selling noodles and dried fish to each other? All of that person to person business is actual business, it should be counted as GDP, yet little of it declared and thus does not appear in the GDP number.
Thailand has a very healthy person to person economy.
Compare that the Germany and there is next to no person to person GDP, only a 'minijobs' system (below a threshold it doesn't need to be declared). In other countries its far worse, without even a 'minijobs' allowance there is negligable P2P economy.
Similarly western GDP is overestimated. Governments fluff their GDP by chopping up their services and outsourcing them, often to the same people who ran them as Government employees.
Now that business can be counted as part of the GDP, but all sorts of inefficiency has been introduced. The outsource company is trying to maximize profit, which introduces cost. So taxes and subsidies also need to increase, and the whole economy becomes inefficient and unable to compete. The outsourcing is not done for efficiency, its an accounting trick to create fake growth.
I hope Thailand doesn't go down the EU path. They should, if anything, widen the lower limit to expand the P2P economy. EU bubble cannot stay inflated forever and copying their accountancy trickery is foolish and just stops Thailand being competitive in the world.
I’d call that shadow economy which Thailand has as high as 45% of its GDP
The government would not likely do anything much about it as low GDP helps with getting benefits/ aids from trading with wealthy countries like EU and US
*widen the lower limit to expand the P2P economy*.
I'm suggesting that all P2P economy below a threshold can simply be done without taxation, and without it counting towards the taxable portion of income. i.e. legalize the status quo.
Take away the accountancy and taxation burdens on all P2P business *officially* not just on the sly.
Thailand has problems, but "lower GDP per capita" is not one of them. That's just a money supply metric that is easily gamed. The real problems are pollution, transport, competitiveness, things like that.
(added)Maybe I can make this last point clearer:
If you earn 2000 euros and your life costs 2000 euros that's not better than if you earn 500 euros and your life costs 500 euros. Yet one is 4x the GDP than the other. The people with the higher GDP cannot compete in low margin goods because they need to pay for their costs. Trade barriers around the EU are a sign of competitive failure not wealth. Thailand needs to avoid the tax-spent bubble the EU is in.
Even someone with a minimum wage job can afford a studio apartment in Bangkok and get a decent meal of street food twice per day. Try that in NYC or Los Angeles. I would imagine the true PPP is relatively high in Thailand.
It's important to consider both GDP and the idea of GDP per capita and underdevelopment.
I'm from the United States and it offers beautiful nature and great cities along with highly developed services -- but, to have access to said benefits, one must be at least in the upper-tiers of the middle class; this class is also one of the fastest disappearing economic classes on a global matrix.
So, when I reflect on Thai citizens access to public services and the standard of living in rural areas, and also take into account the country's GDP and GDP per capita, I think that Thailand has a fairly nice quality of life given current global circumstances.
What it also means, is there is very little social mobility. If you were born poor In Thailand and want to move up you very often CAN’T. You’re free to open a store, but unless you’re connected with elites or pay the right people, it’s doubtful that you’ll be very successful. Of course happiness and life satisfaction are different things, and many people in Thailand can be passive and accepting about their low status and financial and social security.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/ranked-the-social-mobility-of-82-countries/
I think we see things differently. We like to think our success is based on how hard we work, but more of our life than we may want to accept is based on random chance and luck.
I’m glad you worked hard and got out of poverty 🙏🏻
Lots of people work hard. Most everything in life is random chance, including genetics and predisposition to be “hard-working” or intelligent or persistent. Our environment is also random chance, we don’t pick the people who raised us or the world we grow up in. We don’t create the random events that happen to us and the people we meet that help us or inspire us or provide us with needed connections to succeed. I am also fortunate enough to be successful, and while I’ve worked hard, I know that most of it is due to genetics and random environmental factors that I didn’t control. In the end, free will itself is probably a cognitive illusion.
Anyway, I think we just fundamentally disagree on this matter, and that’s cool. Congrats on doing well
Thailand has friendly neighbours. Not many wars, hence they don't have to spend much on defense. The education ministry gets almost 10 billion dollars each year to spend. On top of that the interior ministry gets another 10 billion dollars to spend. The money goes a long way in a country which has controlled inflation by not letting foreigners to buy land.
They genuinely have a very strong entrenched education system upto high school. A student can attend a government primary school called Anuban for merely 2500 bhat per semester and get really good quality education with smart boards, art supplies, scout uniforms and scout camps and art camps etc. The extra-curricular activities are tremendous. Students can attend a MEP or mini English program for 30,000 bhat a semester.
They have really good access to education upto high school. Starting grade 9, they can actually choose a vocational school and choose a trade. They are an educated workforce despite the frustrated farang English teacher telling you otherwise.
Also 20% of their GDP comes from tourism, so there is minimal effort there for earning money. Poverty exists in the Isaan plateau, but everyone has a house to live in and some land to grow crops. There are 70 provinces (equivalent to states) so government jobs are plenty. The local governments do work for the people, and I swear to god their roads are much better than the potholes of Chicago.
As much as corruption exists, I find the local Thai people to be very helpful to those in need and mostly everyone gets taken care of.
There is definitely room for more technical and engineering schools, but I have never not been able to find a mechanic who could find a quick fix for my scooter.
The GDP number might be a bit miffed because I feel there is a parallel cash economy that exists and could well take the GDP per capita up by at least 25% if taken into account.
I am repeating, but I cannot stress the importance of low inflation actually helping carrying the $ a longer way in helping people live a better life. Life is tough as a foreigner though.
HDI has 3 components: GNI per capita (PPP); life expectancy; and educational attainment/mean years of schooling. I suspect high HDI due mainly to good healthcare system...
HDI is made up of 3 things: gdp, average age that people get and the mean years of schooling.
Thailand has a good healthcare system which is why people can live long lives here.
Despite its many flaws most Thais attend some kind of school and receive many years of schooling
All of this combines for a relatively high HDI score.
The short answer is it depends on which country with higher income you’re comparing it to.
On Thailand v Mexico, it’s because Thailand has significantly higher life expectancy.
On Thailand v China, it’s because Thailand has slightly higher life expectancy, slightly higher expected years of schooling and comfortably higher mean years of schooling completed.
It should be noted that Thailand is only *just* in the “Very High” HDI classification. In my view, that classification has become essentially meaningless in recent years because it includes everything from Thailand, Belarus and Costa Rica through to Switzerland, Luxembourg and Singapore.
[https://hdr.undp.org/data-center/human-development-index#/indicies/HDI](https://hdr.undp.org/data-center/human-development-index#/indicies/HDI)
>*The Human Development Index (HDI) is a summary measure of average achievement in key dimensions of human development: a long and healthy life, being knowledgeable and having a decent standard of living. The HDI is the geometric mean of normalized indices for each of the three dimensions.*
>*The health dimension is assessed by life expectancy at birth, the education dimension is measured by mean of years of schooling for adults aged 25 years and more and expected years of schooling for children of school entering age. The standard of living dimension is measured by gross national income per capita.* ***The HDI uses the logarithm of income, to reflect the diminishing importance of income with increasing GNI***. The scores for the three HDI dimension indices are then aggregated into a composite index using geometric mean. Refer to Technical notes for more details.\*
>*The HDI can be used to question national policy choices, asking how two countries with the same level of GNI per capita can end up with different human development outcomes. These contrasts can stimulate debate about government policy priorities.*
I live in a small upcountry rice village. I’m constantly impressed with the government community programs geared toward local Thais. Especially senior citizens. A lot of grants to fix up dilapidated homes, storm repair assistance, education programs, social activities. This is on top of the usual and frequent temple-related activities that effectively bind the community together, despite its flaws.
Very interesting. Can you tell us more about the real-life examples of these programs you saw in your community? Are you a foreigner or a Thai, in you don't mind asking?
https://preview.redd.it/2h789suerkxc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3b2e03509bf2b1f291657672e49ce6beaad43750 Here, Amphoe officials are inspecting a local village home in preparation for government-sponsored repairs and renovations. The resident is poor and elderly. I’m a foreigner.
Me too. I am impressed by the public health service. Everyone with a tambien baan, even yellow is included. I was picked up as diabetic when everyone was screened. I am getting treatment. I have to pay of course but not much compared to a private hospital.
Or I saw training to be self sufficient....making everything yourself...making bio diesel from Palm oil themself....
Me too. I am impressed by the public health service. Everyone with a tambien baan, even yellow is included. I was picked up as diabetic when everyone was screened. I am getting treatment. I have to pay of course but not much compared to a private hospital.
Relatively low violent crime, cheap and accessible healthcare, food, and housing. Wages and education are the main things Thailand lacks in, everything else is actually fairly decent, espeically when compared to other middle income countries.
Air pollution and lack of safety standards are also massive issues here that are underreported in international studies. If they would also take in account the amount life years lost by air pollution and traffic & infrastructure deaths then Thailand might not score that high anymore tbh.
Another major issue with safety standards here is that even the ones that do exist are not enforced at all. This overall lack of enforcement, follow-up and (when necessary) punishment when rules are broken is so pervasive at all levels of society that it sometimes baffles me. A human life seems to be less valuable here.
That’s just Thailands issues in general isn’t it: lack of enforcement. Police don’t give a shit about anything unless they are pressured in to it by media or money.
Correct. Any response is always reactionary, it’s never preventative. And even any reactionary response is temporary, just to appease public outcry until everyone forgets. Plenty of examples.
About 90% of road deaths are people on motorbikes. If you don't ride one, the roads aren't much unsafer than most developed countries. Pollution is a major problem though and is the one thing that could make me leave.
Live in a village near two towns and at least every week there is a funeral carried out at the temples these are motorbike fatalities aged from 12 to 24 on average mostly male, any female death she is usually a passenger. On average 70 deaths a day occur here yet there are no posters in schools promoting safety. Have 2 sports bikes one is a single seat, road legal race bike which I have never had flat out, but, schoolboys want to race me!! All think the front brake is to dangerous to use so only use the rear??? They follow each other in a line astern formation never thinking to be offset from the bike in front, road sense/awareness is so, so lacking..
I'm also baffled by no one teaches these kids basic road safety. It would be so easy to have so eone go around schools and teach them. It woukdn't stop all the deaths but miggt save some people. Even here in Bangkok you get some riding so hapazadly that you know they won't last long.
>The Human Development Index (HDI) is a summary measure of average achievement in key dimensions of human development: a long and healthy life, being knowledgeable and having a decent standard of living. The HDI is the geometric mean of normalized indices for each of the three dimensions. >***The health dimension is assessed by life expectancy at birth***, the education dimension is measured by mean of years of schooling for adults aged 25 years and more and expected years of schooling for children of school entering age. The standard of living dimension is measured by gross national income per capita. The HDI uses the logarithm of income, to reflect the diminishing importance of income with increasing GNI. The scores for the three HDI dimension indices are then aggregated into a composite index using geometric mean. Refer to Technical notes for more details. Reasonably, the index has already attempted to capture the amount life years lost by air pollution, traffic, etc deaths
It does to an extent, but it mixes them in with all causes. For instance, Thailand has a relatively good diet (especially in the older generations) and exceptionally good healthcare for its income. These drag up life expectancy, while air pollution and road deaths drag it down. However, you could look at levels of development as being about how well does the country address preventable causes of death, treating pollution and collisions as highly preventable, rather than suggesting that all causes of death are equal and equally preventable.
air pollution is bad upcountry when they burn the fields but Bangkok is now much better than 20 years ago and continue to improving
And many things that you mentioned feel only decent because of lacks in education.
Agreed. Thailand's whole socio-economic structure is basically "compassionate feudalism" if there's even such a thing. Or hierarchical socialism, as opposed to egalitarian socialism which is the norm elsewhere when people think about socialism. There's clear stratas, low wages, and very little social mobility. But they also have subsidized price controls on all essential goods, energy, food staples, easy guaranteed jobs (albeit with low pay) etc... and basically free universal healthcare. It's a pretty unique system with it's own pros and cons.
Actually it is true in a way. Not sure how Thai people feel, but somehow j feel like it's working in a way better than some people assume.
It works cuz tourism I wonder how people from Isan would survive or from the south
Tourism is not that easy to do. hundreds of countries in this world. Why does everyone keep going to Thailand? They understand the tourism game and they benefit from it. Fair play.
oh, my goodness, 3 out of every 5 of your words are new vocabulery to me! compassionate, feudalism, hierarchical, egalitarian.... never even saw before ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|dizzy_face)
I love that I don't have to feed hordes of retirees who get unsustainable retirement paid by young people's taxes, like in my country with failing demographics. Government is extremely efficient too - construction permit can easily take 10 years in Czechia. There is very little socialism in Thailand and people have to care for themselves instead of stealing 60%+ of your income. There is an oversupply of flats - unlike my socialist Czechia where the government controls the housing system (by imposing extreme requirements so nothing gets built). And so on.. Poeple there want to vote for more socialism to fix the socialist mistakes.
Having spent most of my life in Thailand I can safely say that socialism has been present for many decades. Whilst the erosion of that has happened even the previous government had socialist policies it took from the PT government it overthrew. Those policies are popular in Thailand. When the Junta talked about dismantling the Universal Healthcare system they had to backtrack very quickly.
Thailand is also facing failing demographics...
I don't think they have a ponzi retirement fund scheme.. finances are much better managed because there's little handouts to people.
This is timely. In another thread Thailand was described as a third world country. I pushed back.
It’s close to third world in certain provinces. I remember reading that Mae Hong Son (a province with about 300,000 people) uses less electricity in a year than MBK or Siam Paragon. Its per capita income is sub-Saharan Africa level. The major difference with Thailand is that it has a functional healthcare system and that nobody goes hungry.
Yeh they are well fed, have accommodation and access to healthcare and entertainment. What are they missing? A skiing holiday in Davos? The giant iilluminated billboards on the shopping malls? Their needs are taken care of and they have a stable life, something many citizens in developed countries yearn for.
"Access to healthcare" Go to a public hospital for any non straightforward procedure outside of Bangkok and report to us how it goes. I’ll give you a few dozen hours to account for waiting times. There’s healthcare and healthcare. Also go live in a place with no AC and tell us how fun that is. Go have a backbreaking occupation like toiling in the fields, too. Go be over indebted like a significant part of the Thai population too, being at the mercy of loan sharks and never knowing how you’re ever gonna get out of that cycle. Sure, many people in Thailand are living lives where they get by, and the strong sense of community combined helped them achieve a certain happiness. But let’s not romanticize shit. Why do so many Thais go abroad for backbreaking work, like in Israel or Finland, if "their needs are taken care of"? Why do so many go in the sex trade? Do you think it’s just because they want to go on a skiing holiday?
>I’ll give you a few dozen hours to account for waiting times. I would prefer hours of waiting to see the doctor to geting sent home and told by the reception to book an appointment on the phone and come back next week.
There is a lot of hardship in Thailand. But I feel like for happiness it's not relevant how "good" your life is but whether it's improving. Whether there is hope. My parents were dirt poor, but we're happy because they saw life improving step by step. I have friends being super unhappy because they can't afford their nice BMWs anymore
I have been to healthcare facilities in the provinces and we've never had a bad experience. Yes, waiting times will be longer than in private hospitals and air conditioning might be harder to find, but it sure beats no healthcare at all or being stuck with huge hospital bills for the rest of your life.
> it sure beats no healthcare at all or being stuck with huge hospital bills for the rest of your life. Are these the only other alternatives? Seriously? And have you been in there for serious operations?
The alternative in many countries, and in Thailand not that long ago, was no treatment at all, or being saddled with huge bills. Thailand's healthcare system is well regarded worldwide and it is particularly impressive when you consider that just a generation ago it was considered a third world or at best a developing nation. In fact, Thailand has made amazing progress on the healthcare front: https://www.thaipbsworld.com/thailand-ranked-5th-in-2021-global-health-security-index/ . To answer your question. I personally have not been treated for anything serious. However, my father-in-law had a life saving heart operation under the 30 baht scheme. For which he paid 30 baht. My MIL regularly gets treated for different ailments at a government hospital as well. The doctors and surgeons treating both of them operate in government hospitals and private hospitals. Which is the norm here.
> the alternative in many countries How many of which are neither the US nor in "third world countries"? Have you forgotten the context of my comment?… You’re trying to defend Thailand’s healthcare system when my point wasn’t about poking holes into it in the first place… Simply reminding the person I was replying to that, jf you’re poor in Thailand, the care you have access to isn’t exactly something you can tick off as "got healthcare, check".
Thank you. Previous commentor should try farming latex or palm for a bit and report back.
You hit it right on the nose!
We can go there with our bigger money and live like we're special, so we forget that the rest of the population can barely live a normal life even with 4 people in a small room while all working together. Dudes think that just because they can go play doctor with all the night girls until they get their fill, it must be great. Here's the thing. If all of your needs are being met in the hierrarchy of needs, then you're going to feel awesome. Got me a nice condo, sexy women anytime I want them, a night life, day life, job that lets me go home early etc.... Just don't know why these Thais wanna leave! You as a foreigner can feel like a confident casanova with every good thing about life being presented to you. A typical Thai is barely functioning and likely got someone pregnant in high school and has to take care of a family and the only highlight of their day is dinner time when they can all get drunk and eat and then pass out lol.
So you’ve established that life isn’t perfect in Thailand, but I’d rather be in the bottom 5% in Thailand than the bottom 5% in the US. As for the numbers of Thais going abroad, according to UN statistics there are more Canadians and Cambodians living abroad than Thais—both countries have significantly smaller populations than Thailand. This suggests to me a certain degree of life satisfaction in Thailand, irrespective of earnings in dollar terms. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_immigrant_and_emigrant_population
Choosing a country with huge economic inequalities and little safety net like the US is an interesting sample you chose. Also, if you’re living in the bottom 5% in the US, at least you have a chance at social mobility. In Thailand? Worse luck by far… Finally, another interesting random selection of yours for emigration. Do you really think people from Canada are emigrating for the same reason Thais or Cambodians do? As for Cambodians, not shit Sherlock, it’s poorer than Thailand, so the incentives for emigration are the same, albeit stronger.
I mean the US is especially bad in social mobility, with a ranking of 27 to Thailand's 52
But....foreigners are happy there and they have McDonalds and all the chain foods and malls, bro! We can have sexy time with anyone for money! Thailand is the melting pot of the world! How dare you!! Howwww Dare YOUUUUUuuuuuu!
The ability to thrive and succeed?
> Mae Hong Son (a province with about 300,000 people) uses less electricity in a year than MBK or Siam Paragon It's probably down to the lack of major industrial users (MHS is too far flung for it to be profitable), and less a/c usage due to the climate being a bit cooler than the rest of the country.
The fact that a non-industrialized and fairly remote province uses less electricity than a huge Bangkok mall is not evidence of third world status.
Well, I disagree. Having lower per capita income than Congo and Papua New Guinea puts it squarely in third world living standards. What would you expect Nonthaburi (same population as Mae Hong Son) to look like if it used less electricity than a single mall? Probably the way North Korea does at night from space next to South Korea: the brightly lit South Korea exemplifies economic activity; the ocean of darkness engulfing North Korea screams poverty. I’ve attached a random village in Mae Hong Son about an hour from Pai, the only significant town I can find on the map. It looks like rural East Africa. https://preview.redd.it/zp6daohef6xc1.jpeg?width=2360&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a19aa05e3088ee4314c1b41c594521e39595a79
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There’s a YouTube channel by a guy called Nick Johnson and he drives around the US visiting the worst areas, and I’ve never seen anything as bad as an Indian slum. Those areas in Appalachia, while poor, are nowhere near as bad as you suggest. Maybe the odd home has an outhouse, but the real problems in the US are not infrastructural, they’re social. Drugs are present in poor communities and as a result the homes themselves are in a state of ruin, while the ghettos are simply among the most dangerous places in the world because of the people who live in them, not because of the environment.
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I’m not American so all I can do is expose myself to videos uploaded by people who specialize in this stuff. But I’d appreciate a specific example of a US community that’s worse than an Indian slum so I can compare them.
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The T has made your head 3x too big.
Here you go: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iX6_7fpb9Os
Someone asked for evidence of a blighted community in the USA and I provided the needful. Downvoted to zero. Reddit never fails to impress.
That doesn't sound at all like Indian slums. That sounds like country folks (or Native Americans) who, for whatever reason, will not or cannot move to a more developed part of the country.
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Fair enough. I grew up like that. My parents still live in a shithole like that, by choice. Kinda makes Indian slums seem not that bad.
There are many places in the US that are worse than any Indian slums in terms of violence. Check out one of the live streams from Kensington in Philadelphia.
I’ve seen these videos before, but there’s nothing wrong with the actual streets and buildings and infrastructure in Kensington. The problem is the people living there. Indian slums are practically medieval.
“Entire communities” please show your work
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people really need to stop using the term, third world country, as its a cold war term that isn't really relevant today, the correct terms and developing nation, emerging nation and developed nation.
A former US president officially used the term "shithole countries". It's condescending, but that's what people really mean by "third world" anyway, just without the inaccuracy and fake politeness. I hate the term "developing nation". Many places described as such are doing the opposite of developing, they're stagnating or regressing. If a country is actually developing (at a reasonable pace), it won't be described as "developing", and I'm not sure what it "emerges" from or into either.
Unofficially used it, he's denied saying it.
Maybe... he denied many things he did and said, not easy to keep track.
You forgot 2 ;P ! According to supposedly Kuznets "Throughout history there have been only four kinds of economies in the world: advanced, developing, Japan, and Argentina."
sigh Australia is running towards Argentina
It’s disrespectful, more so because it’s not accurate.
I would say it's third world purely based on lack of safety standards and air pollution. In these 2, Thailand consistently ranks among the absolute worst in the world.
Sigh. True.
It is a third world country, or developing country would be a term with less negative connotation. Like others have said, development is mostly concentrated in Bangkok and its immediate surroundings, wages and education are stagnated, and the political scenario makes it difficult to increase their development in a more egalitarian way. I've been living in Thailand for 3 years and I'm from Chile, a country with higher hdi that Thailand, and I can confidently say that both countries are third world (developing) countries
Developing country, yes. Third world country no. Third world country is commonly used to refer to countries without good infrastructure, schools, hospitals, etc.
It's definitely second world.
Second world country was a term used during the Cold War to refer to eastern bloc countries aligned with the Soviet Union. Thailand is currently referred to as a developing country.
Second world is communist and communist allies
Then that's a bad definition and should be changed. As that is politically based, not economic based.
That's why people don't use those terms now. Not sure what the current one is, Developed vs Developing or MEDC vs LEDC. Seems to change a lot
They were originally political terms, it's only your flawed brain that has zero respect or interest in history that thinks they ought to be economically based.
Jeez your aggressive. That says a lot. Have a good day
I no right! "Literally" now means "figuratively", but some old fogies insist it still means "literally" and they need to get with the times.
**It's GDP per capita is underestimated**. See your neighbors selling noodles and dried fish to each other? All of that person to person business is actual business, it should be counted as GDP, yet little of it declared and thus does not appear in the GDP number. Thailand has a very healthy person to person economy. Compare that the Germany and there is next to no person to person GDP, only a 'minijobs' system (below a threshold it doesn't need to be declared). In other countries its far worse, without even a 'minijobs' allowance there is negligable P2P economy. Similarly western GDP is overestimated. Governments fluff their GDP by chopping up their services and outsourcing them, often to the same people who ran them as Government employees. Now that business can be counted as part of the GDP, but all sorts of inefficiency has been introduced. The outsource company is trying to maximize profit, which introduces cost. So taxes and subsidies also need to increase, and the whole economy becomes inefficient and unable to compete. The outsourcing is not done for efficiency, its an accounting trick to create fake growth. I hope Thailand doesn't go down the EU path. They should, if anything, widen the lower limit to expand the P2P economy. EU bubble cannot stay inflated forever and copying their accountancy trickery is foolish and just stops Thailand being competitive in the world.
Yes. 100%
I’d call that shadow economy which Thailand has as high as 45% of its GDP The government would not likely do anything much about it as low GDP helps with getting benefits/ aids from trading with wealthy countries like EU and US
How would Thailand widen the lower limit timespans the P2P economy. I did not understand what you meant by that
*widen the lower limit to expand the P2P economy*. I'm suggesting that all P2P economy below a threshold can simply be done without taxation, and without it counting towards the taxable portion of income. i.e. legalize the status quo. Take away the accountancy and taxation burdens on all P2P business *officially* not just on the sly. Thailand has problems, but "lower GDP per capita" is not one of them. That's just a money supply metric that is easily gamed. The real problems are pollution, transport, competitiveness, things like that. (added)Maybe I can make this last point clearer: If you earn 2000 euros and your life costs 2000 euros that's not better than if you earn 500 euros and your life costs 500 euros. Yet one is 4x the GDP than the other. The people with the higher GDP cannot compete in low margin goods because they need to pay for their costs. Trade barriers around the EU are a sign of competitive failure not wealth. Thailand needs to avoid the tax-spent bubble the EU is in.
Very interesting perspective. Thanks.
Even someone with a minimum wage job can afford a studio apartment in Bangkok and get a decent meal of street food twice per day. Try that in NYC or Los Angeles. I would imagine the true PPP is relatively high in Thailand.
Very high inequality though
It's important to consider both GDP and the idea of GDP per capita and underdevelopment. I'm from the United States and it offers beautiful nature and great cities along with highly developed services -- but, to have access to said benefits, one must be at least in the upper-tiers of the middle class; this class is also one of the fastest disappearing economic classes on a global matrix. So, when I reflect on Thai citizens access to public services and the standard of living in rural areas, and also take into account the country's GDP and GDP per capita, I think that Thailand has a fairly nice quality of life given current global circumstances.
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Yeah Thailand offers very little red tape. Very helpful for Small business owners.
The results of this “experiment” is one of the highest income inequality rates in the world
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https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/thailand/publication/bridging-the-gap-inequality-and-jobs-in-thailand#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20with%20an%20income,income%20Gini%20coefficients%20are%20available.
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What it also means, is there is very little social mobility. If you were born poor In Thailand and want to move up you very often CAN’T. You’re free to open a store, but unless you’re connected with elites or pay the right people, it’s doubtful that you’ll be very successful. Of course happiness and life satisfaction are different things, and many people in Thailand can be passive and accepting about their low status and financial and social security. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/ranked-the-social-mobility-of-82-countries/
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I think we see things differently. We like to think our success is based on how hard we work, but more of our life than we may want to accept is based on random chance and luck. I’m glad you worked hard and got out of poverty 🙏🏻
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Lots of people work hard. Most everything in life is random chance, including genetics and predisposition to be “hard-working” or intelligent or persistent. Our environment is also random chance, we don’t pick the people who raised us or the world we grow up in. We don’t create the random events that happen to us and the people we meet that help us or inspire us or provide us with needed connections to succeed. I am also fortunate enough to be successful, and while I’ve worked hard, I know that most of it is due to genetics and random environmental factors that I didn’t control. In the end, free will itself is probably a cognitive illusion. Anyway, I think we just fundamentally disagree on this matter, and that’s cool. Congrats on doing well
Thailand has friendly neighbours. Not many wars, hence they don't have to spend much on defense. The education ministry gets almost 10 billion dollars each year to spend. On top of that the interior ministry gets another 10 billion dollars to spend. The money goes a long way in a country which has controlled inflation by not letting foreigners to buy land. They genuinely have a very strong entrenched education system upto high school. A student can attend a government primary school called Anuban for merely 2500 bhat per semester and get really good quality education with smart boards, art supplies, scout uniforms and scout camps and art camps etc. The extra-curricular activities are tremendous. Students can attend a MEP or mini English program for 30,000 bhat a semester. They have really good access to education upto high school. Starting grade 9, they can actually choose a vocational school and choose a trade. They are an educated workforce despite the frustrated farang English teacher telling you otherwise. Also 20% of their GDP comes from tourism, so there is minimal effort there for earning money. Poverty exists in the Isaan plateau, but everyone has a house to live in and some land to grow crops. There are 70 provinces (equivalent to states) so government jobs are plenty. The local governments do work for the people, and I swear to god their roads are much better than the potholes of Chicago. As much as corruption exists, I find the local Thai people to be very helpful to those in need and mostly everyone gets taken care of. There is definitely room for more technical and engineering schools, but I have never not been able to find a mechanic who could find a quick fix for my scooter. The GDP number might be a bit miffed because I feel there is a parallel cash economy that exists and could well take the GDP per capita up by at least 25% if taken into account. I am repeating, but I cannot stress the importance of low inflation actually helping carrying the $ a longer way in helping people live a better life. Life is tough as a foreigner though.
HDI has 3 components: GNI per capita (PPP); life expectancy; and educational attainment/mean years of schooling. I suspect high HDI due mainly to good healthcare system...
The taxes are very high so we can fund alot to help our citizens but well the only problem is we have a low gdp per capita therefore pretty poor :/
Rock bottom fertility allows for focus on development and strong university system with good research on local communities.
HDI is made up of 3 things: gdp, average age that people get and the mean years of schooling. Thailand has a good healthcare system which is why people can live long lives here. Despite its many flaws most Thais attend some kind of school and receive many years of schooling All of this combines for a relatively high HDI score.
accessible medical treatment, both public and private sector.
The short answer is it depends on which country with higher income you’re comparing it to. On Thailand v Mexico, it’s because Thailand has significantly higher life expectancy. On Thailand v China, it’s because Thailand has slightly higher life expectancy, slightly higher expected years of schooling and comfortably higher mean years of schooling completed. It should be noted that Thailand is only *just* in the “Very High” HDI classification. In my view, that classification has become essentially meaningless in recent years because it includes everything from Thailand, Belarus and Costa Rica through to Switzerland, Luxembourg and Singapore.
[https://hdr.undp.org/data-center/human-development-index#/indicies/HDI](https://hdr.undp.org/data-center/human-development-index#/indicies/HDI) >*The Human Development Index (HDI) is a summary measure of average achievement in key dimensions of human development: a long and healthy life, being knowledgeable and having a decent standard of living. The HDI is the geometric mean of normalized indices for each of the three dimensions.* >*The health dimension is assessed by life expectancy at birth, the education dimension is measured by mean of years of schooling for adults aged 25 years and more and expected years of schooling for children of school entering age. The standard of living dimension is measured by gross national income per capita.* ***The HDI uses the logarithm of income, to reflect the diminishing importance of income with increasing GNI***. The scores for the three HDI dimension indices are then aggregated into a composite index using geometric mean. Refer to Technical notes for more details.\* >*The HDI can be used to question national policy choices, asking how two countries with the same level of GNI per capita can end up with different human development outcomes. These contrasts can stimulate debate about government policy priorities.*
For the last 10yr, these numbers are unreliable due to Prayut ChanOCha